WEBVTT - Tootsie with Nori Reed

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<v Speaker 1>On the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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<v Speaker 2>all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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<v Speaker 2>have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and Beast start changing

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<v Speaker 2>with the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, tuts Hey, doll, Hey, honey, Bunny.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, excuse me of that's actually not cool. Oh that's

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<v Speaker 2>not cool when you do that. And then I'm surrounded

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<v Speaker 2>by women that are like, wait, what it's not cool

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<v Speaker 2>when they do that.

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<v Speaker 3>But I have been speaking that.

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<v Speaker 4>I just watched the feminism getting.

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<v Speaker 3>Very eyes by a character who is a man. Actually.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the TUTSI episode of the Bechtel Cast.

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<v Speaker 4>My name is Jamy Loftis.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Caitlin Toronte. This is our show where

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<v Speaker 3>we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the

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<v Speaker 3>Bechtel Test simply as a jumping off point. But Jamie,

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<v Speaker 3>what is the Bechdel Test.

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<v Speaker 2>Bechdel Test is a media matter created by friend of

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<v Speaker 2>the show, Alison Bechtel, originally created as a bit a

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<v Speaker 2>fun joke for her excellent comic DEXs to watch out

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<v Speaker 2>for in the eighties. The version of the test we

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<v Speaker 2>use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender speak

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<v Speaker 2>to each other about something other than a man. They

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<v Speaker 2>must also have names, and the exchange should be meaningful

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<v Speaker 2>in some way. This is like zero point five percent

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<v Speaker 2>of what we talked about on the show, but still

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite way to find out that someone has actually

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<v Speaker 2>never listened to an episode.

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<v Speaker 1>They're like, yeah, that's.

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<v Speaker 2>You, and then you just kind of what we go

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<v Speaker 2>through the script right, No, and today this is our

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<v Speaker 2>tenth year as a podcast, and one of those episodes

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<v Speaker 2>that you're like, you think it would have happened.

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<v Speaker 4>Earlier, it just didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if I've had this many notes

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<v Speaker 2>in quite some time.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm pages, pages and pages of notes. So much to say, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>so much to do. So let's let's cut our guest.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's get our guest on the mix. We need her

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<v Speaker 3>desperately today. Yes, she's a writer and comedian.

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<v Speaker 4>It's Nori Reid.

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<v Speaker 5>Hi. Hello.

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<v Speaker 6>I want to start just by giving a really huge

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<v Speaker 6>disclaimer that.

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<v Speaker 5>I chose Toutsy. I chose Toutsy.

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<v Speaker 6>I have never I have never seen the film. I've

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<v Speaker 6>heard of it in pop culture, referenced and shows, and

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<v Speaker 6>I've never seen it, and Caitlin and Jamie did not

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<v Speaker 6>reach out to me to do Tootsy. Okay, so save

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<v Speaker 6>the hate mail, put the pens down, put the pens down,

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<v Speaker 6>do not cancel this show.

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<v Speaker 5>They I did this. I did this.

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<v Speaker 6>Are we recording on Trinsday in visibility?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah it put the pens down.

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<v Speaker 5>I put him down.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a part of you that like, should I

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<v Speaker 2>text Norri be like you don't have to do this today?

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<v Speaker 4>Find any other.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, they asked me to do Tutsy on trains Day visibility.

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<v Speaker 6>I was kind of I was kinda like, uh, I mean,

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<v Speaker 6>if you want me to, I guess it sort.

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<v Speaker 3>Of gave you no choice. Yeah, yeah, you're like, you

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<v Speaker 3>have to do this.

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<v Speaker 6>You're gonna call my agent.

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<v Speaker 4>It would be really cool if you did this.

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<v Speaker 6>You guys had guns. It was so weird.

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<v Speaker 5>It was like weird.

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<v Speaker 3>We kind of tied you up a little bit.

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<v Speaker 5>I like that that part.

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<v Speaker 3>Was that part was hot Light.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, which Tutsy that pervert would have loved.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh. Okay, so you had not seen this movie,

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<v Speaker 3>so no any so.

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<v Speaker 2>When you said that in the email, when you were like, Titsy,

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<v Speaker 2>I've never seen it was like my god, Well, let's

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<v Speaker 2>just see what happens.

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<v Speaker 1>God.

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<v Speaker 6>First of all, like who like the fact that the

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<v Speaker 6>whole movie you have to suspend your disbelief that like

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<v Speaker 6>people don't know that that Toutsy is a man, Like

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<v Speaker 6>like that's so funny. Like everyone's just like, yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 6>a that's a that's ais woman. Right, It's like, no,

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<v Speaker 6>that's Dustin Hoffman. What are you talking about?

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<v Speaker 5>That was wild?

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<v Speaker 2>That was so wild that the Yeah, the world that

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<v Speaker 2>this movie takes place in, You're like, what are the

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<v Speaker 2>rules here? There's like even on the idea of like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it would be way easier for an older woman to

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<v Speaker 2>get a job than a white guy in his forties,

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<v Speaker 2>You're like, what am.

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<v Speaker 3>I he's so difficult to work with. Yeah, and men

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<v Speaker 3>who are difficult to work with famously they can't find work.

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<v Speaker 3>Just kidding.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, The premise that there is a deeply empathetic maternal

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<v Speaker 2>figure inside of every frothingly angry cisman just such a

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<v Speaker 2>strange premise.

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, if a man, if a man is short enough,

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<v Speaker 6>he has to become a woman. And that is the

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<v Speaker 6>that is the message of the movie. I'm obsessed with,

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<v Speaker 6>like acting class culture, so like I did love like

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<v Speaker 6>the footage of them and acting class and like, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>I love Barry, Like I have such a soft spot

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<v Speaker 6>for like actors.

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<v Speaker 5>So I really did love that part.

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<v Speaker 6>Of it, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, Yeah, I mean there are this movie. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it has its moments, but there's so.

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<v Speaker 3>Few at far so to you, so few.

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<v Speaker 2>So this was your so this was your first? Uh

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<v Speaker 2>yeah what what give us? The give us the cliff notes?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? Are you a fan?

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<v Speaker 6>I there were there were moments where I was disassociating.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm gonna be honest with you, Like there are moments

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<v Speaker 6>where I had to get on my phone and like

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<v Speaker 6>go on Instagram because I was just so overwhelmed with

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<v Speaker 6>like what was going on? Yeah, he like also was

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<v Speaker 6>like such a bad person and like I was just

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<v Speaker 6>like wow, like you were awful and like that was rough,

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<v Speaker 6>Like he was just such a bad, bad person to

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<v Speaker 6>everyone in his life. Yeah, like he was just sucked.

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<v Speaker 6>Like the one part that made me laugh that I

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<v Speaker 6>really maybe I shouldn't have laughed, but it really got

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<v Speaker 6>me is towards the very end, when like when the

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<v Speaker 6>horrible like older actor on set, like the doctor what's

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<v Speaker 6>his name, oh, doctor Brewster? He goes whenever it's finally

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<v Speaker 6>revealed this whole time that tutsies a man and then

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<v Speaker 6>he gets the button and he says, does Jeremy know?

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<v Speaker 6>That really made me laugh, Like I was like, that's funny,

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<v Speaker 6>that's actually funny.

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<v Speaker 3>Because he's talking about his room Bill Murray's character.

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, Jeff, I'm so sorry go Yeah, he was like

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<v Speaker 6>he was like, does Jeff know? Like that? Really?

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<v Speaker 5>I was like, that's that's funny. Yeah, that's objectively funny.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's a moment. That's a moment in uh

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<v Speaker 1>in a long movie.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 6>And like the Fall character, like his his love interests,

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<v Speaker 6>like who is like the dummy?

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<v Speaker 5>Like I just hate I hated that. I hated that, like.

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<v Speaker 6>She was being pushed around and like lied to and

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<v Speaker 6>was like the.

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<v Speaker 5>Dumk Terry Guard character. I just like hated that.

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<v Speaker 2>I yeah, the Crime of because Terry. I think Terry

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<v Speaker 2>gar is giving a really good performance in a movie

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<v Speaker 2>that just like doesn't.

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<v Speaker 4>Deserve her at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, yes, that scene where she's yelling at her

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, she's so good in like her big

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<v Speaker 2>scene and then she disappears, she falls off the Cloe cliff.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I have so many notes about her. There's there's

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<v Speaker 3>too much Jamie. What is your relationship with this movie?

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<v Speaker 1>This?

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like probably a lot of people have it.

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<v Speaker 2>So my mom loved this movie, which I watched. There's

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<v Speaker 2>like a free version of this movie on YouTube, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was going through the comments because there was a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of views on it, and I was seeing that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of like, Oh, my mom loved this movie

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<v Speaker 2>and we watched it together. So I remember my mom

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<v Speaker 2>sitting me down and watching this movie with me in

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<v Speaker 2>probably high school. I remember liking it at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I hadn't really come back to it since. So

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<v Speaker 2>I came back Leary being like, well, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>changes I was in high school. I'm a completely different

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<v Speaker 2>person and this could just go so many ways, and

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<v Speaker 2>I did not like the way that it went. I

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<v Speaker 2>am not a fan of this movie, but it's one

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<v Speaker 2>of those movies that people still, I mean people our

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<v Speaker 2>age still will really go to bat for in a

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<v Speaker 2>way that I don't know.

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<v Speaker 4>I was Coleman through letterboxed.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, what do people say about the movie

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<v Speaker 2>TUTSI in the mid twenty twenties, and it is still

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<v Speaker 2>I think, like kind of delusionally praise the elements of

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<v Speaker 2>this movie that just like, maybe it seemed intriguing in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two, but I'm like, I don't think that

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<v Speaker 2>there's really a case for it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure there's.

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<v Speaker 3>A nostalgia component.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, for the time in nineteen eighty two, there

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<v Speaker 3>were hardly any movies that were addressing gender as a

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<v Speaker 3>concept and feminism and women trying to stand up for

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<v Speaker 3>themselves and be empowering, and like, this just was not

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<v Speaker 3>a thing that was happening in most movies of this era.

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<v Speaker 3>So I imagine that's why, like people of our mom's generation,

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<v Speaker 3>and especially women of our mom's generation, really hold this

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<v Speaker 3>movie close to their hearts.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, revisiting it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, you're just like, I don't we need to circlettack.

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<v Speaker 4>Like what's going on in this movie. I like Dorothy.

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<v Speaker 2>I hate Michael Darcy Dorsey. I couldn't hate Michael Dorsey

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<v Speaker 2>more if I try a piece of shit, And I

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<v Speaker 2>just I object with the I'm like, Dorothy would have

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<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with Michael Dorsey.

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<v Speaker 6>And she's she is hot. I mean like, like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 6>the most unbelievable part of the movie is that Dorothy

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<v Speaker 6>and Jessicaalaine Ling's character Julie. Yeah, that's the fact that

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<v Speaker 6>they didn't hook up is so it's like they they

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<v Speaker 6>would have hooked up if this was real life, Like

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<v Speaker 6>they would have had sex. Like like Dorothy's so hot,

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<v Speaker 6>She's like really, like she's got it.

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<v Speaker 2>And like exactly what Julie's looking for to Like.

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<v Speaker 3>Julie's inviting her over late at night. Literally they're having

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<v Speaker 3>so much wine together, like so much wine.

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<v Speaker 5>She's like, you're so beautiful, like come on, stop.

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<v Speaker 2>The soft focus meeting her like family, like her baby,

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<v Speaker 2>She's in love. I have the character. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't like the movie. I think

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<v Speaker 2>some of the characters are interesting, but they're just like

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<v Speaker 2>where it they end up is so like Julie's ending

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<v Speaker 2>is so depressing. I'm like, do not under any circumstance

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<v Speaker 2>of state. Michael Dorsey, no get away from him. Sandy

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<v Speaker 2>Lester's disappeared from the movie.

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<v Speaker 4>Anyways. I don't know. It's a weird one.

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<v Speaker 2>I under Yeah, I think that this is a big

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<v Speaker 2>nostalgia movie for people. But if it's been a while,

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<v Speaker 2>give it another watch maybe and get back to us. Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>Kaitlyn what's your history with TUTTI.

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<v Speaker 3>I saw this during the Great Kaitlyn movie binge of

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<v Speaker 3>two thousand and five, and major huge, yeah, huge, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought it was corny as hell and low key bad.

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<v Speaker 3>I did not like it at all. I thought, good

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<v Speaker 3>for you, and not for the same not for the

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<v Speaker 3>exact same reasons. I don't like it today, but I

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<v Speaker 3>think there is some overlap. I've never liked the Michael

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<v Speaker 3>Dorsey character. I don't care about his problems or his journey,

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<v Speaker 3>and like you were saying, Nori, I was having a

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<v Speaker 3>hard time suspending my disbelief.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, they just like promote Dorothy to showrunner like out

0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.319
<v Speaker 2>of know They're like, well, she's gonna do what she's

0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.840
<v Speaker 2>gonna do. I was like, have you ever seen how

0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.360
<v Speaker 2>people treat actors? They're like, shut up, meet puppet, get

0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>it right.

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.120
<v Speaker 4>Like it's so.

0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.560
<v Speaker 3>Rare, and like there was just so much about Like

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.160
<v Speaker 3>I don't think Dustin Hoffman was doing a good job

0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.640
<v Speaker 3>because there are a lot of roles where CIS men

0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 3>play women in a movie or a show. I'm thinking

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 3>of Louis Anderson, especially in Baskets. Yeah, constantly forget that

0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.439
<v Speaker 3>that's Louie Anderson at.

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.360
<v Speaker 6>A certain point, you're like, Okay, that is a trans

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 6>woman and we have to be honest about that.

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:48.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so it can be done very well. Not to

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.960
<v Speaker 3>the same degree, but I think John Travolta as the

0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.720
<v Speaker 3>mom and Hairspray, Like, sometimes I'll be watching these characters

0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.679
<v Speaker 3>and I'm like, think, I forget that that's.

0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:02.120
<v Speaker 6>Summer, Like my yeah, you're like, that is high school girl,

0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:02.520
<v Speaker 6>like you.

0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.160
<v Speaker 3>Just that's a girl. That's a teenage girl, yes, for sure.

0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.880
<v Speaker 3>And then there's Dustin Hoffman doing whatever the hell that

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:13.360
<v Speaker 3>is with Dorothy, like with that accent, his idea of

0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 3>what a woman acts and moves like it just felt

0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 3>so cartoonish and goofy to me because, unlike you, Jamie,

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 3>I do not like Dorothy. I think she's better than

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:28.319
<v Speaker 3>Michael Dorsey, but.

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.599
<v Speaker 4>I fives by comparison.

0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:36.880
<v Speaker 3>And I also like the character that Dorothy plays, Miss Kimberly.

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 3>I find her grading like the whole performance. I just

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't. I have never liked this movie. I never

0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 3>felt compelled to watch it again, and so revisiting it

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 3>for this episode, like twenty years after the first time

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 3>I saw it. I also was like, kind of I

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 3>think I had, like Mendela affected myself with this movie.

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.600
<v Speaker 3>I thought it had. I thought the themes of like

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 3>and he lives as a woman for a while and

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.800
<v Speaker 3>that really teaches him a lesson about how sexist he

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:10.480
<v Speaker 3>used to be.

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that that's what people thought the takeaway

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.480
<v Speaker 2>was at the time. I think that is a popular

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.360
<v Speaker 2>narrative around this movie. And then you watch it, you're like, and.

0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.480
<v Speaker 3>Then you watch it and that barely happens.

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 2>No, he the movie would have it that, like, he

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 2>invents feminism and then ignores it and.

0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.000
<v Speaker 3>Then ignores it and learns nothing from it. Yeah, yes,

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 3>that is the trajector of the story. So anyway, Yeah,

0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 3>it was a very interesting we rewatch. We have so

0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.120
<v Speaker 3>many notes, so much to discuss. Let's take a quick

0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.080
<v Speaker 3>break and then we'll come back for the recap. Sure,

0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:57.680
<v Speaker 3>and we're back.

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, what happens in Tutsie, I'll tell you.

0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 3>We meet Michael Dorsey Boo by Dustin Hoffman Boo. Michael

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 3>is an actor who we see teaching acting classes, putting

0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.360
<v Speaker 3>on theater makeup and fake mustaches and all that stuff.

0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.960
<v Speaker 3>He's auditioning for various roles and stage plays and things.

0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.560
<v Speaker 3>But he keeps getting rejected. They're always looking for someone

0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 3>else for money. Michael works at a restaurant as a

0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:39.920
<v Speaker 3>waiter with his playwright friend slash roommate Jeff played by

0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:40.720
<v Speaker 3>Bill Murray.

0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Also, I totally memory holed Bill Murray being in this

0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 2>movie in a pretty large role. I was like, I,

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.280
<v Speaker 2>I just I didn't remember. Also, in my memory, Geena

0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Davis is the lead, not Jessica Lang.

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.720
<v Speaker 3>There's so much Mandela effect with this movie.

0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, including it being good. There's so many weird things

0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.040
<v Speaker 2>about this but yeah, yeah, Bill Berry, we can't get

0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:05.480
<v Speaker 2>around it.

0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.920
<v Speaker 3>There he is, He's there, and he and Michael are

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.480
<v Speaker 3>trying to raise eight thousand dollars to put on a

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 3>play that Jeff wrote. Also a part of this production

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 3>that they're trying to put on is their friend Sandy

0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 3>played by Terry Garr, an actor who is prepping for

0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.120
<v Speaker 3>an audition for a soap opera and Michael coaches her,

0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 3>but she doesn't get the part. Then, Michael finds out

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 3>that he didn't get a part in a play that

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 3>he was supposed to be up for, so he goes

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.840
<v Speaker 3>to his agent, George played by the director of this movie,

0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:47.280
<v Speaker 3>Sidney Pollock, to be like what the heck George, and

0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.920
<v Speaker 3>George reveals that Michael has a reputation of being very

0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.000
<v Speaker 3>difficult to work with and no one will hire him.

0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 2>But you know who people do love the hire middle

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:03.240
<v Speaker 2>aged women. They're the most working as people in the world,

0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>as we all know.

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:11.960
<v Speaker 3>So off screen, Michael decides to start presenting as a

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 3>woman to try to get so we cut to him

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:22.160
<v Speaker 3>in a dress, wig makeup. He has decided to become

0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy Michaels since no one will hire Michael Dorsey. But

0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.080
<v Speaker 3>he's only going to do this for auditions. He's not

0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.440
<v Speaker 3>going to like live as a woman because he is

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:35.199
<v Speaker 3>still a sis man.

0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.679
<v Speaker 3>He goes for an audition for the same role that

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 3>Sandy got rejected from a soap opera called Southwest General.

0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.840
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy also gets turned down at first because she's seen

0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:53.160
<v Speaker 3>as not the right type. She's too soft and delicate.

0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:59.159
<v Speaker 3>So Dorothy gives an impassioned speech that shows that she

0:17:59.400 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 3>can be.

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.639
<v Speaker 2>To the events feminism she events feminism on the soap opera.

0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:10.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and the director, Ron Carlyle played by Dabney Coleman,

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.240
<v Speaker 3>is impressed by this and casts Dorothy in the role

0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 3>of Miss Kimberly, the hospital administrator. And so just just

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.639
<v Speaker 3>to clarify, we've got Dustin Hoffman playing the character of

0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 3>Michael Dorsey, who is playing the character of Dorothy Michaels,

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.640
<v Speaker 3>who was playing the character of Miss Kimberly. Yes, so

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.360
<v Speaker 3>there's so many layers. It's like Shrek with onions. Onions

0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 3>have layers, very onion like performance. Yes.

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:40.600
<v Speaker 4>Yes.

0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.719
<v Speaker 3>So during the audition, Dorothy meets Julie Nichols played by

0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:46.800
<v Speaker 3>Jessica Lang.

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Who what an oscar for being in this movie.

0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:58.399
<v Speaker 3>Which I guess I sure weird wain to be weird.

0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, she's a good you know, like, yeah, she's

0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.200
<v Speaker 2>doing a good job. And I'm like, was it huh, It's.

0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.400
<v Speaker 3>Not like a standout performance or anything.

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>No, I thought she was Geena Davis for half the movie.

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yes, Okay. So Julie is a cast member who

0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:21.520
<v Speaker 3>plays a nurse on this soap opera and Dorothy slash

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:26.679
<v Speaker 3>Michael takes an instant liking to Julie. He's got a

0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:32.800
<v Speaker 3>little crush. Then Michael, still dressed as Dorothy, approaches his

0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.600
<v Speaker 3>agent George and reveals like, oh it's me Michael, and

0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:42.480
<v Speaker 3>tells George that he auditioned as Dorothy and landed the

0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.359
<v Speaker 3>role of Miss Kimberly, and George is horrified by all

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.080
<v Speaker 3>of this. He thinks that Michael is sick in the head.

0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 3>Then a short time later, Michael as himself is hanging

0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.040
<v Speaker 3>out with Sandy. She doesn't know that he is pretending

0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 3>to be this Dorothy person, especially because Dorothy landed the

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.520
<v Speaker 3>role that Sandy was trying to get and that would

0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:10.480
<v Speaker 3>be a huge betrayal to their friendship, something that which

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 3>Michael keeps secret the whole time.

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.760
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, now we're introducing the classic element of deceiving

0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:19.879
<v Speaker 2>women for most.

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:20.440
<v Speaker 4>Of the movie.

0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 2>It's so bizarre though, because it's like the movie tries

0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.640
<v Speaker 2>to rationalize it in this way. Many times, it almost

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 2>seems like intentionally to keep Sandy excluded from being anything

0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 2>except a like desperate love interest basically, where yeah, like

0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:41.000
<v Speaker 2>she is like Bill Murray's in on it the whole time.

0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.159
<v Speaker 2>Bill Murray and the agent. They're making these nasty little

0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 2>comments to Michael that I think intended to make Michael

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>look like a better person by comparison, even though he

0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 2>fucking sucks, but like Sandy, the whole premise of it

0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.800
<v Speaker 2>is like, oh well, she's too emotional to handle knowing

0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:04.240
<v Speaker 2>that I did this thing, like and and did it,

0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, after she failed to get this job. But

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 2>it's like they're like, well, I would tell her, but

0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 2>she it's just so old school, like they're like, I would,

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.119
<v Speaker 2>but she's too hysterical to handle the plot of the

0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:16.280
<v Speaker 2>movie TUTSI.

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:17.880
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, well, then what is she doing here?

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.720
<v Speaker 3>Well, you called her love interest, but she's a love

0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.879
<v Speaker 3>interest that he's not interested in.

0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.440
<v Speaker 2>No, she's interested in him. I mean that's I feel

0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:30.240
<v Speaker 2>like that happens to a lot of like comic actors,

0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:35.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot like Terry garr undisputably haughty, right, but like sure,

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.440
<v Speaker 2>she's presented as too emotionally fragile and less desirable than

0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.439
<v Speaker 2>Jessica Lang, just like by the story and by the

0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.000
<v Speaker 2>fact that Michael is like not interested in her and

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.399
<v Speaker 2>therefore feels comfortable treating her like shit because he's not

0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.680
<v Speaker 2>attracted to her, so no need.

0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:52.480
<v Speaker 4>To treat her like a person.

0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Certainly, Yeah, although they do have sex, because what happens

0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:02.639
<v Speaker 3>next is she leaves to take a shower. They're about

0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.880
<v Speaker 3>to like go grab some food or something. Michael undresses

0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.480
<v Speaker 3>to try on some of her clothes because he's been

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:15.199
<v Speaker 3>shopping for women's clothes to play this Dorothy character. And

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 3>then Sandy walks in on Michael while he's almost naked,

0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.880
<v Speaker 3>and he plays it off as he wants her, he's

0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.720
<v Speaker 3>attracted to her. Cut to they've just had sex, and

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:30.080
<v Speaker 3>then she's like, you'll probably ignore me now, and he's like, no,

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:30.760
<v Speaker 3>I won't.

0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 2>I know he does, and then he does, and then

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.240
<v Speaker 2>he just does for basically the rest of the movie. Yeah,

0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>and then he'll show up and be like, hey, sorry,

0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm late by seven hours and she's like, oh, all good.

0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:48.720
<v Speaker 2>It was like Sandy, Sandy, God, yeah, yeah, that.

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:53.240
<v Speaker 4>Scene was disturbing. I did not like that scene.

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.639
<v Speaker 2>And it is not the most coercive, disgusting scene in

0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the movie.

0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:58.160
<v Speaker 4>They save that for the very end.

0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:05.080
<v Speaker 3>Yes, oh god, Okay, So Michael as Dorothy heads to

0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.159
<v Speaker 3>the first day of shooting the soap opera, Dorothy finds

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.640
<v Speaker 3>out that her character on the show has to kiss

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:17.600
<v Speaker 3>a man. We'll talk more about this, but Dorothy is

0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 3>uncomfortable because Michael is uncomfortable with kissing a man. So

0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:27.040
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy stands up for herself and she changes the scene,

0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.200
<v Speaker 3>goes off script, and everyone's like, sure, okay, that works too,

0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:35.960
<v Speaker 3>And this is the beginning of have Dorothy either have

0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:36.800
<v Speaker 3>either of you.

0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:41.040
<v Speaker 2>Ever performed in like where you're like, hey, I would

0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 2>like to make an extreme change to the script, and

0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 2>everyone's just like, all right, we have no choice, Like

0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:50.920
<v Speaker 2>it is just so bizarre.

0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that usually does not happen like that.

0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:54.960
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.959
<v Speaker 2>I don't know any soap opera heads in the crowd.

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.600
<v Speaker 2>Can you just be like, actually, no, I know that

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.920
<v Speaker 2>that's not true, but it is very weird that they

0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 2>present it as true and the fact that no if

0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.400
<v Speaker 2>that this is true, and no one else has ever

0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.639
<v Speaker 2>taken advantage of it before, Like, no one else goes

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:19.960
<v Speaker 2>off book for the entire unless unless Julie does it

0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:21.840
<v Speaker 2>at one point and I'm not remembering, but.

0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.800
<v Speaker 3>I think only in response to dorit they got it.

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:26.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, No, Usually that gets you fired if you're just

0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:33.879
<v Speaker 3>continuously going off book for the role that you that

0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.640
<v Speaker 3>lines are written for you and you're expected to say

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.760
<v Speaker 3>those lines as written. If you don't do that, you

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:41.960
<v Speaker 3>get fired.

0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:47.600
<v Speaker 2>But but people love Dorothy Michael. People are going cuckoo

0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>for Dorothy Michaels, which I again like I it's I guess,

0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.840
<v Speaker 2>like an interesting idea that like they're like, oh, Dorothy's

0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:01.119
<v Speaker 2>character not even heard. Like Dorothy's character seems to really

0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>appeal to, like working in single women and like appeal

0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>to middle aged women, which is an interesting idea. Unfortunately,

0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 2>there are no middle aged women in the movie to

0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:19.360
<v Speaker 2>really engage with. Like you meet a producer at the beginning,

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.320
<v Speaker 2>there's like two women on set who fall into this

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:24.000
<v Speaker 2>age range, and I'm like, well, I wonder what she

0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.400
<v Speaker 2>thinks about this, but they you never really find out,

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:30.159
<v Speaker 2>and so it just becomes this weird detail that Dorothy

0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.119
<v Speaker 2>Michaels appeals to middle aged women because the women we

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 2>meet are like hot young women.

0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:36.399
<v Speaker 4>So I don't know.

0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:41.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, right, Because Dorothy's episodes of Southwest General start airing

0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 3>on TV and people are becoming like huge fans of Dorothy,

0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:51.360
<v Speaker 3>they're flocking to get her signature. Her co stars Julie

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:55.440
<v Speaker 3>and April Page, who's the Geena Davis character, also really

0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:59.560
<v Speaker 3>appreciate Dorothy's work on the show. Ron the director isn't

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.959
<v Speaker 3>so great because he's sexist and he's always being condescending

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.640
<v Speaker 3>to Dorothy and to Julie.

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's very much like the worst guy ever character

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:14.800
<v Speaker 2>again that like we see all the time to make

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 2>the other shitty guys in the room seem nicer by comparison,

0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Like he's just so awful that you're like, well, no

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:24.160
<v Speaker 2>one's gonna see themselves in this guy, so maybe they'll

0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:25.720
<v Speaker 2>think Michael Dorsey is awesome?

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:31.040
<v Speaker 3>Is that the actor who plays the horrible sexist boss

0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:32.720
<v Speaker 3>in nine to five?

0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:34.800
<v Speaker 3>I think it is.

0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I haven't seen nine to five since we covered

0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 2>it a long time ago.

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:41.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I recognized him, and then I was like, I

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:43.760
<v Speaker 3>think that, So he's basically playing the same character in

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:49.119
<v Speaker 3>both movies if I'm thinking correctly. Wild Okay, yeah, but anyway,

0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:53.239
<v Speaker 3>then Julie invites Dorothy over for dinner to run some

0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:58.720
<v Speaker 3>lines as well, which is exciting to Michael because he's

0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:02.680
<v Speaker 3>got a big crush one. But he shows up as Dorothy.

0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:07.359
<v Speaker 3>They bond and have a nice time. But oh no,

0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.520
<v Speaker 3>Michael remembers he was supposed to have dinner with Sandy.

0:27:11.240 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 3>This is the second time and there will be more

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:16.719
<v Speaker 3>after this that he has blown her off or were

0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 3>forgotten that they had plans.

0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't tell how much of this I know that,

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.439
<v Speaker 2>like we're obviously we're meant to feel for Sandy, but

0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:27.199
<v Speaker 2>sometimes her being stood up, I feel like it's like

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:31.000
<v Speaker 2>visually supposed to kind of be a joke because we

0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:35.840
<v Speaker 2>see her like alone and drinking alone, and she forgives

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 2>him so quickly. I'm just like, I don't even know

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:40.000
<v Speaker 2>how I'm meant to be feeling right now.

0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:41.880
<v Speaker 4>I feel bad, But like.

0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.520
<v Speaker 3>I think we're meant to pity her more than empathize

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:45.920
<v Speaker 3>with her.

0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Sure, yeah, that is a great way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:52.280
<v Speaker 2>I think we are sort of encouraged to view Sandy

0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:56.080
<v Speaker 2>as kind of pathetic in a way that is like upsetting.

0:27:56.440 --> 0:28:02.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure, Terry guards her better. Yeah, Okay, So

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:07.439
<v Speaker 3>Michael rushes over to Sandy's place. She's still upset that

0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:11.280
<v Speaker 3>she didn't get that part on Southwest General. She thinks

0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 3>that Dorothy and her character Miss Kimberly suck, and this

0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:22.320
<v Speaker 3>is partly because she doesn't strike Sandy as the tough

0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:28.400
<v Speaker 3>character Miss Kimberly was supposed to be. So Dorothy starts

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:33.200
<v Speaker 3>changing the script even more and making up her own

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 3>lines that are more quote unquote empowering to women, and

0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:42.560
<v Speaker 3>the fans are loving it even more. Dorothy gets a

0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.560
<v Speaker 3>bunch of fan mail. She does all these photo shoots.

0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 3>She ends up on the cover of several magazines. Then

0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:55.560
<v Speaker 3>Michael goes to a party where he sees Julie, and

0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:59.000
<v Speaker 3>even though he's there with Sandy, he goes up to

0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Julie and try to hit on her, but she throws

0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:06.640
<v Speaker 3>a drink in his face. We'll talk more about the

0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:13.320
<v Speaker 3>whatever the love story between them, But then Julie invites

0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy to spend the weekend with her, her baby, and

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:24.240
<v Speaker 3>her dad, Less played by Charles Derning, who has taken

0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 3>a liking to Dorothy. Old Less has a big old

0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:30.520
<v Speaker 3>crush on Dorothy.

0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, him and his bad politics and his dead wife.

0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 3>And then this weekend getaway with all of these people

0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:46.040
<v Speaker 3>is I think one of the corniest sequences ever committed

0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:46.560
<v Speaker 3>to film.

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>What the hell is that song playing? I think it's

0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:55.000
<v Speaker 2>an original song for this movie. I'd never heard it before.

0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know.

0:29:58.120 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 4>What the hell was that.

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:04.840
<v Speaker 3>It was no good And the whole time Michael dressed

0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 3>as Dorothy because Julie doesn't know that Dorothy is actually Michael,

0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:15.400
<v Speaker 3>but Dorothy's like looking at Julie longingly. They have to

0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:18.640
<v Speaker 3>sleep in the same bed because even though this house

0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:22.880
<v Speaker 3>is huge, there's only one bed in one bedroom for

0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:30.560
<v Speaker 3>them to sleep in together. Meanwhile, Les is pining after Dorothy. Yeah,

0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.640
<v Speaker 3>this fucking guy. He goes on a tirade about gender.

0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 3>He's very pro traditional gender roles.

0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:37.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:42.600
<v Speaker 2>He starts it like many scary fathers slash grandfathers, where

0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:45.360
<v Speaker 2>he's like, so, let me start by saying do whatever

0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:50.480
<v Speaker 2>you want, but and then says something extremely regressive or hateful.

0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:53.320
<v Speaker 2>So I'm like, okay, so don't so don't do whatever

0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.600
<v Speaker 2>you want. Anyways, it's firmly nineteen eighty three. It is

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:58.240
<v Speaker 2>the Reagan administration.

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, in this it sure is. Then Dorothy finds out

0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 3>that her contract is being extended on this soap opera

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:13.360
<v Speaker 3>for another year. But Michael doesn't want to keep playing

0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 3>this Dorothy and by extension miss Kimberly character, so he's

0:31:19.640 --> 0:31:20.560
<v Speaker 3>trying to get out of it.

0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:23.480
<v Speaker 2>He wants to go play like let us off Broadway

0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:26.840
<v Speaker 2>or whatever the fuck. I kind of I'm like, you

0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:29.480
<v Speaker 2>can just tell, and I think this is intentional. You

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:33.240
<v Speaker 2>can just tell based on the description of Bill Murray's

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:38.600
<v Speaker 2>play that it's fucking awful, Like, oh, this sounds rank and.

0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:40.480
<v Speaker 3>He's such a pretentious piece of shit.

0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:41.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:45.560
<v Speaker 3>Then Julie asks Dorothy if she can babysit for Julie's

0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 3>baby while she goes and breaks up with Ron the

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:54.600
<v Speaker 3>director because Dorothy has empowered and inspired Julie to not

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:59.360
<v Speaker 3>put up with Ron's bullshit and his mistreatment, and then

0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 3>returns home. After this, she's sad the relationship is over.

0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:10.360
<v Speaker 3>She's feeling lonely, and Dorothy tries to kiss Julie because

0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:13.600
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy is actually Michael and Michael is in love with Julie,

0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.640
<v Speaker 3>but Julie doesn't know any of that, and so she

0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:21.760
<v Speaker 3>thinks Dorothy is a lesbian and she's like, oh, no,

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:26.040
<v Speaker 3>thank you, Yucky. I don't want to be friends anymore.

0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:27.680
<v Speaker 4>It feels I this.

0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:30.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure this comparison has been made before, but it

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:34.680
<v Speaker 2>feels very similar in well, not similar in tone necessarily,

0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:38.440
<v Speaker 2>but like it's like a Mulan thing going on here,

0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:41.280
<v Speaker 2>where I feel like it's they're tolding this very specific

0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:44.920
<v Speaker 2>line to like reinforce well, ultimately, all of these characters

0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:48.400
<v Speaker 2>are straight where it's like, oh, there's an attraction between

0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:52.400
<v Speaker 2>these people, but something isn't quite right, like m hm,

0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:55.280
<v Speaker 2>and so the movie, can you know, have it all

0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:58.840
<v Speaker 2>always and we can still end with like a sister

0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:00.400
<v Speaker 2>couple at the end of them movie.

0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:09.160
<v Speaker 3>Right, So, then Julie's dad less is like, hey, Dorothy,

0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:12.840
<v Speaker 3>will you marry me? And Julie is all like, oh

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 3>my god, you're gonna have to tell my dad that

0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 3>you're a lesbian and all this stuff.

0:33:19.280 --> 0:33:22.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it becomes all of a sudden so urgent for

0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Dorothy to out her I mean, at least Julie's mind,

0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.520
<v Speaker 2>for Dorothy to out herself to a guy she's met

0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:34.840
<v Speaker 2>one time, Like, You're like, that's no, there's no, what.

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:39.240
<v Speaker 3>Is so ridiculous? Yeah, he's he's proposing after knowing Dorothy

0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:44.520
<v Speaker 3>for like two seconds. Then there's a scene where John

0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 3>Van Horne, who is the actor who plays the doctor

0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Doctor Brewster in the soap opera. He has stalked Dorothy

0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:57.920
<v Speaker 3>all the way home. He's trying to get into her apartment.

0:33:58.160 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 3>He manipulates his way inside, then assaults Dorothy.

0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.160
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, he stares to rape her.

0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:10.319
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's yeah, and only doesn't when Jeff comes in

0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:13.879
<v Speaker 3>and he handles this whole thing. Everyone handles this whole

0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:17.040
<v Speaker 3>thing very either poorly or bizarrely.

0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but John, I just kind of drop it after it,

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:27.839
<v Speaker 2>after it happens where he, like Michael is just like whoa.

0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:32.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, John leaves. But then Sandy shows up and Michael

0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:34.520
<v Speaker 3>has to hurried lee, you know, like shower off all

0:34:34.560 --> 0:34:38.480
<v Speaker 3>of his Dorothy makeup, and Sandy's like, why aren't you

0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:43.439
<v Speaker 3>returning my calls? And he's trying to play the whole

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:47.040
<v Speaker 3>thing off. He continues to lie to her. She calls

0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:50.439
<v Speaker 3>him out for his dishonesty. We'll talk more about this

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.920
<v Speaker 3>scene and their whole relationship, but she ends up storming out,

0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:57.719
<v Speaker 3>and so now Michael is at a loss for what

0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:01.800
<v Speaker 3>to do. His friend Sandy is him his love interest.

0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:05.640
<v Speaker 3>Julie doesn't want to be friends with him slash Dorothy

0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:11.480
<v Speaker 3>anymore because she's homophobic. Michael doesn't want to be Dorothy anymore.

0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 3>But he's stuck in this contract on this soap opera.

0:35:15.120 --> 0:35:17.560
<v Speaker 3>And on top of all of that, the editor of

0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:21.200
<v Speaker 3>the show spilled celery juice, and.

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Juice exists, and I'm like, it's been what was happening

0:35:26.880 --> 0:35:29.880
<v Speaker 2>in the eighties, I don't know, but he's spilled.

0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 3>The editor spilled celery juice all over the footage. So

0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:38.480
<v Speaker 3>they have to do a scene live on TV, so

0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:44.759
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy takes that opportunity to remove her wig and makeup

0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:50.080
<v Speaker 3>and drop the falsetto voice and reveal that the character

0:35:50.239 --> 0:35:56.400
<v Speaker 3>Miss Kimberly is actually a man, her brother Edward, giving

0:35:56.440 --> 0:36:00.719
<v Speaker 3>this whole soap opera explanation for why everyone is like,

0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:06.400
<v Speaker 3>oh my god. Julie walks up to Michael and punches him,

0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:10.560
<v Speaker 3>and now Michael is really really sad. He pushes over

0:36:10.719 --> 0:36:12.640
<v Speaker 3>a mime in a park.

0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:16.719
<v Speaker 2>I forgot about that and I watched this movie yesterday.

0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:19.440
<v Speaker 4>He does push over a mime and crushes over a mime.

0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.799
<v Speaker 3>He meets up with Less to give the engagement ring back,

0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:29.879
<v Speaker 3>and Less is disgusted and humiliated because he's also homophobic

0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:33.200
<v Speaker 3>like father, like daughter, But Michael's like, well, I'm in

0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 3>love with your daughter. Julie unless is like, eah, all right,

0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:40.000
<v Speaker 3>but just so you know, she never talks about you

0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 3>or anything. So then Michael, despite that, approaches Julie to

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 3>try to like smooth things over, and she's still pissed

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:53.239
<v Speaker 3>at him, and he gives this like barely an apology.

0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:56.880
<v Speaker 2>And crucially, she says, I miss Dorothy and then yeah,

0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 2>which is intriguing. But then he's like, well, I'm Dorothy,

0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:04.879
<v Speaker 2>you're my girlfriend now, and she's like, hmmm, maybe I am.

0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 4>And you're like, what a bleak ending? Yeah?

0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:10.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that's how it ends. So let's take a

0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:13.480
<v Speaker 3>quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:30.439
<v Speaker 2>And we're back, Okay, I mean, where to where beget Nori?

0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:35.240
<v Speaker 3>Is there any place you wanna you want to start?

0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:40.319
<v Speaker 6>I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:40.960
<v Speaker 7>I don't know.

0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 3>There's just too much. Should we start with a little

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.440
<v Speaker 3>bit of context, I guess for this and then we

0:37:47.480 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 3>can really dive. Sure, there's not a whole lot, but

0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:55.000
<v Speaker 3>this movie was inspired by a play that a writer

0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:58.799
<v Speaker 3>named Don Maguire wrote in the early seventies called Would

0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:01.719
<v Speaker 3>I Lie to You? About an unemployed male actor who

0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:05.960
<v Speaker 3>cross dresses to find jobs. The script was shopped around

0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:10.520
<v Speaker 3>Hollywood for years. It went through different rewrites, different producers

0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:14.560
<v Speaker 3>and directors were attached, different stars were attached, and then

0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 3>the script eventually was shared with Dustin Hoffman, who wanted

0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:23.920
<v Speaker 3>the role and also wanted complete creative control of the project.

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.240
<v Speaker 2>So Dorothy Michaels coated behavior.

0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:30.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, He's like, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell

0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.879
<v Speaker 3>I want and no one can say anything about it. Yeah,

0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:37.640
<v Speaker 3>and he wanted Sidney Pollock to direct, and to try

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:42.319
<v Speaker 3>to get him interested, Dustin Hoffman approached Elaine May to

0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.759
<v Speaker 3>do a rewrite of the script, and she did a

0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:50.000
<v Speaker 3>couple things. She added the Bill Murray character Jeff. She

0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:54.600
<v Speaker 3>fleshed out Sandy's character, so Sandy was even less thought

0:38:54.600 --> 0:38:56.200
<v Speaker 3>out than she currently is.

0:38:57.120 --> 0:38:59.480
<v Speaker 2>So what am so?

0:38:59.480 --> 0:38:59.920
<v Speaker 4>I'm guessing?

0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Elaine May added, like Sandy's one good scene. Maybe I

0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:03.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

0:39:04.320 --> 0:39:07.479
<v Speaker 3>I yeah, let's go with that. Let's go with that. Yeah,

0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 3>so she made different changes. Elaine May is not credited

0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:13.920
<v Speaker 3>as one of the writers, but she did this rewrite.

0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:15.480
<v Speaker 6>Of course not of course, of.

0:39:15.440 --> 0:39:18.319
<v Speaker 2>Course, we don't want to We don't want to get

0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:22.400
<v Speaker 2>the ugly idea that women were involved in this production.

0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:23.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:28.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The crediteds Greade writers are Larry Gilbert and Murray Shishkel.

0:39:30.080 --> 0:39:34.640
<v Speaker 3>And then before production began, Dustin Hoffman worked with a voice,

0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:38.960
<v Speaker 3>speech and body language expert named Lillian Glass to learn

0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:45.280
<v Speaker 3>how to speak and have the body language of a woman, which, again,

0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:49.839
<v Speaker 3>to me, the performance he gives feels very just like

0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:55.960
<v Speaker 3>weird and stilted and like he is capital p performing

0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 3>woman or like his bizarrow idea of what a woman is.

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:05.320
<v Speaker 6>Like Yeah, and the accent was just like it really

0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:08.759
<v Speaker 6>blew me away. It was like so strange, Like there

0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.759
<v Speaker 6>was a stutter that he put into it, which.

0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:13.920
<v Speaker 5>Was so like what was that choice?

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:17.680
<v Speaker 6>Like that, like like the he would stutter and it

0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.560
<v Speaker 6>was like, why is that part of this woman's experience?

0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:22.319
<v Speaker 6>I don't.

0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>He's just like he's always doing too much. Like there's

0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:30.560
<v Speaker 2>just always this energy of like Oscar nomination for me

0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:32.680
<v Speaker 2>in all of his roles.

0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.480
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think Rainman is the most egregious.

0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Of those, but like sure, but like he's just always

0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:41.520
<v Speaker 2>trying to get an Oscar. I there was an interview

0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:44.640
<v Speaker 2>that he did maybe ten years ago around this and

0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:47.000
<v Speaker 2>if you can listen to other Bechdel Cast episodes for

0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.200
<v Speaker 2>you know it doesn't Hoffmann fucking sucks.

0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:51.640
<v Speaker 3>As a person, bad bad guy.

0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:54.160
<v Speaker 2>But there was an interview he did about this because like,

0:40:54.400 --> 0:40:56.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, once the credits are rolling, I was

0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:01.240
<v Speaker 2>just like, who is this really?

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:02.600
<v Speaker 4>Like who is this movie for?

0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:05.600
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like he kind of gets at it

0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:09.720
<v Speaker 2>unintentionally in this interview because he gets very emotional talking

0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:15.359
<v Speaker 2>about Titsy he's crying, Oh my yeah, And you're like, god,

0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:20.120
<v Speaker 2>I love actors, but if he's so irritating, he's he's crying, crying, crying,

0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:24.160
<v Speaker 2>And he says this. He's talking about the process of like,

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, finding Dorothy basically, and the accent and all

0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:30.920
<v Speaker 2>these things, and towards the end of the interview, he

0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:34.439
<v Speaker 2>says that he was feeling emotional and talking to his

0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:38.439
<v Speaker 2>wife about it and said that the reason the character

0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:40.800
<v Speaker 2>appealed to him is because, quote, there are too many

0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:43.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting women I haven't had the experience of knowing in

0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:47.359
<v Speaker 2>this life because I have been brainwashed. That was never

0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:49.920
<v Speaker 2>a comedy for me unquote. So what are you saying

0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:53.160
<v Speaker 2>there is that he has never in his life considered

0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:56.960
<v Speaker 2>talking to a woman he's found unattractive, and so by

0:41:57.040 --> 0:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>playing a woman that he did not find attractive, that

0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.360
<v Speaker 2>actually was life changing for him. And he was crying

0:42:03.360 --> 0:42:06.759
<v Speaker 2>about this, and you're like, Okay, so I guess the

0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:10.120
<v Speaker 2>movie is for whoever feels that way, like.

0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:15.880
<v Speaker 6>Sociopaths, like people who don't experience the emotion or feeling

0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 6>of empathy, and they have to actually become that human

0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:26.640
<v Speaker 6>being to feel any possible empathy. So Tyra Banks. I

0:42:26.680 --> 0:42:27.560
<v Speaker 6>think that is who.

0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:32.040
<v Speaker 2>This Yeah, Dustn't Hoppen and Tyra Banks should really sit

0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:35.760
<v Speaker 2>down and try to define empathy together.

0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:39.520
<v Speaker 4>And just I don't know. First of all, I don't

0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:40.000
<v Speaker 4>buy that.

0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:46.759
<v Speaker 2>This movie uh changed his views on women anyways, similar to.

0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:49.640
<v Speaker 3>How him playing a woman in the movie, like the

0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:54.560
<v Speaker 3>Michael Dorsey character seemingly learns no lessons. Yea, the movie

0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:56.680
<v Speaker 3>wants you to think he learns a lesson, but when

0:42:56.719 --> 0:43:00.919
<v Speaker 3>you look closer, what growth does he actually clear demonstrate?

0:43:01.120 --> 0:43:04.799
<v Speaker 3>I would argue very little. I just want to go

0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:08.239
<v Speaker 3>through how I have a monologue, if you'll indulge me,

0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:13.680
<v Speaker 3>not unlike Dorothy giving all of her monologues. Yeah, okay,

0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:17.680
<v Speaker 3>So we have Michael Dorsey as sis man, dressing in

0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:20.839
<v Speaker 3>disguise more or less as a woman so that he

0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 3>can try to get acting roles. So first of all,

0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:28.760
<v Speaker 3>he's literally taking a man, taking away jobs and income

0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:29.879
<v Speaker 3>from women.

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:33.560
<v Speaker 2>While playing into all of these like horrific still persistent

0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.040
<v Speaker 2>stereotypes around drag.

0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:41.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and through this character, through Dorothy and then again

0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:46.960
<v Speaker 3>by extension miss Kimberly. All these fans fall in love

0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:52.840
<v Speaker 3>with Miss Kimberly because she's bold, she's assertive, she's empowering,

0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:56.600
<v Speaker 3>she stands up to sexism. Women want to be like her,

0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:59.719
<v Speaker 3>and the show is more popular than ever because of

0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:02.759
<v Speaker 3>this Miss Kimberly character. There's even a producer who says

0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:07.200
<v Speaker 3>something like, you're the first woman character who is her

0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:11.400
<v Speaker 3>own person, who can assert her own personality without robbing

0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.840
<v Speaker 3>someone of theirs. And it's like, Okay, well that's a

0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:21.000
<v Speaker 3>fault of the writer's room for not writing any dynamic

0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:21.760
<v Speaker 3>women characters.

0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:25.759
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, well, yeah, that again that producer character, Like,

0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:29.960
<v Speaker 2>I was interested when she first shows up, but then

0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:31.799
<v Speaker 2>it's like you sort of are led to believe she

0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:34.279
<v Speaker 2>has no power on what happens in the show, that

0:44:34.320 --> 0:44:35.680
<v Speaker 2>it seems like she's in charge of.

0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:40.720
<v Speaker 4>Right, Just like, what wouldn't this be within your power?

0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:41.600
<v Speaker 4>Maybe I miss.

0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:46.280
<v Speaker 3>Something I don't know shrug, But anyway, so Miss Kimberly

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:50.880
<v Speaker 3>is regarded as this beloved, empowering woman, the only woman

0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:55.160
<v Speaker 3>character like that on this soap opera. But again, the

0:44:55.200 --> 0:44:59.080
<v Speaker 3>actor playing her is actually a cis man, and so

0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:01.400
<v Speaker 3>we have to think about, well, what are the implications

0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:05.279
<v Speaker 3>of that here? And I have a whole list of options.

0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:09.279
<v Speaker 3>I'm curious what y'all think of this because of the

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:14.600
<v Speaker 3>specific choices that Michael is making for Dorothy slash Miss Kimberly,

0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:16.960
<v Speaker 3>Like he's the one changing all of these lines of

0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:21.120
<v Speaker 3>dialogue and like making this character more assertive, And so's

0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:23.759
<v Speaker 3>the movie suggesting like, oh, yeah, well, only a man

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.960
<v Speaker 3>would think to like take these creative liberties and do

0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:31.239
<v Speaker 3>something like that. Sure playing into the notion that men

0:45:31.320 --> 0:45:36.960
<v Speaker 3>are just inherently more assertive and dominant. Or is it

0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:44.440
<v Speaker 3>suggesting that because men are socialized to be more assertive

0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:48.680
<v Speaker 3>and dominant and women are socialized to be polite and delicate,

0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.480
<v Speaker 3>that a man pretending to be a woman is the

0:45:52.520 --> 0:45:56.160
<v Speaker 3>only way a woman character could be assertive and dominant

0:45:56.200 --> 0:45:59.920
<v Speaker 3>because of the way people of different genders are so

0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:06.080
<v Speaker 3>socialized differently. Or is the movie trying to comment on

0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:11.080
<v Speaker 3>the one dimensional tropy ways that characters who are women

0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.719
<v Speaker 3>tend to be written, especially by writers who are men.

0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:19.359
<v Speaker 3>Because the Miss Kimberly character is originally written to be

0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:24.080
<v Speaker 3>more flat and stereotypical, Julie's nurse character on the show

0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:29.000
<v Speaker 3>is similarly flat and stereotypical. But if this is commentary,

0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:32.440
<v Speaker 3>I would argue that it is not very effective because again,

0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:35.600
<v Speaker 3>a cisman who has lived his whole life as a

0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:39.040
<v Speaker 3>misogynist being the one who sheds light on this and

0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:42.239
<v Speaker 3>opens everyone's eyes to the way women are being represented

0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:45.840
<v Speaker 3>on screen. You know, not the best person to deliver

0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:47.440
<v Speaker 3>this message, yea.

0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:48.479
<v Speaker 4>Or is it.

0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Saying that people will finally listen about sexism when it's

0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 3>a man pointing it out, because this happens all the

0:46:56.600 --> 0:47:00.600
<v Speaker 3>time in real life, where people who are pressed and

0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:05.480
<v Speaker 3>marginalized will point out that they are being oppressed and marginalized,

0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:09.680
<v Speaker 3>and no one listens until people with privilege point out

0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:13.680
<v Speaker 3>that others are oppressed and marginalized, and then everyone starts

0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:16.799
<v Speaker 3>to listen to that. I don't think it's that one,

0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:21.040
<v Speaker 3>But there's just all these weird I say.

0:47:21.120 --> 0:47:24.040
<v Speaker 2>My takeaway I when I wish I had asked my

0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:26.680
<v Speaker 2>mom what her takeaway was at the time, because I

0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:30.080
<v Speaker 2>think that's a good interesting study. But like I think

0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:32.319
<v Speaker 2>what they're trying to do here, and then like in

0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:36.040
<v Speaker 2>the context of the story, it doesn't really work or

0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 2>makes sense. I mean, so much of this doesn't worker

0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:40.560
<v Speaker 2>make sense. It's kind of upsetting. But that like I

0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:45.000
<v Speaker 2>think that it's like, oh bye, the tyrebanksy by embodying

0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:50.719
<v Speaker 2>Dorothy Michael's able to learn empathy for women. But that's

0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:53.600
<v Speaker 2>really not how the story plays out. But I do

0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:55.680
<v Speaker 2>think that that was maybe a lot of people's takeaway.

0:47:55.719 --> 0:47:57.480
<v Speaker 2>If I were to hazard a guess at what my

0:47:57.560 --> 0:47:59.680
<v Speaker 2>mom took away at the time, I think it was that.

0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:04.160
<v Speaker 6>And if it, yeah, Like, if it was that, then

0:48:04.320 --> 0:48:08.680
<v Speaker 6>the reveal would be so much different. Like in his

0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:13.760
<v Speaker 6>like reveal where it's live on camera and he's revealing

0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:16.279
<v Speaker 6>that he's actually a man, it would have had some

0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:20.960
<v Speaker 6>dialogue around, like, and I learned that from being my

0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:24.440
<v Speaker 6>sister that you guys treat women in a really bad

0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:26.960
<v Speaker 6>way because I'm her brother and I'm a man, and

0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:30.640
<v Speaker 6>I like there would have been dialogue around how he

0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:35.399
<v Speaker 6>played he was his sister and he now knows that

0:48:35.520 --> 0:48:39.040
<v Speaker 6>you know women like but like literally there was.

0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:39.799
<v Speaker 5>None of that.

0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:43.480
<v Speaker 6>And like, after he's revealed to be a man, there's

0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:49.840
<v Speaker 6>no reflection nothing. It goes directly into him trying to

0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:53.319
<v Speaker 6>repair any relationship that he can to have sex with

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:57.319
<v Speaker 6>Jessica Lang and he literally like goes to the bar,

0:48:57.600 --> 0:49:00.880
<v Speaker 6>Like the bar scene with her father is one of

0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:04.359
<v Speaker 6>the weirdest fucking scenes. I think that Ever, when he's

0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:06.600
<v Speaker 6>like he's like I am a man. Like like it

0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:09.200
<v Speaker 6>goes back to like don't worry. I'm a man and

0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:09.960
<v Speaker 6>I'm gonna.

0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:12.759
<v Speaker 3>And I'm not gay, I don't not worry about bad and.

0:49:12.760 --> 0:49:14.760
<v Speaker 6>I want to buy you a beer as a man,

0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:16.879
<v Speaker 6>and like, what are man, I'm gonna have.

0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:17.880
<v Speaker 5>Sex with your daughter?

0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:21.360
<v Speaker 6>I was like, what the fuck is going on? What

0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:26.799
<v Speaker 6>is happening? Like nearly fifteen minutes before this father was

0:49:26.840 --> 0:49:30.320
<v Speaker 6>trying to have sex with Dorothy and like literally now

0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:32.680
<v Speaker 6>Dorothy's like, I'm a man, Like I was like, what

0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:33.480
<v Speaker 6>is going.

0:49:35.280 --> 0:49:39.160
<v Speaker 2>It's took the people who the movie lets us see

0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:41.319
<v Speaker 2>their reaction versus the people that we don't. Is so

0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:44.359
<v Speaker 2>telling because it's like, personally, I don't give a shit

0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:46.919
<v Speaker 2>what Wes thinks.

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:47.120
<v Speaker 4>Of all this.

0:49:47.520 --> 0:49:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I am curious what happens with Terry Garr. But the

0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:53.879
<v Speaker 2>last thing we the last we see of her, she's

0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:58.000
<v Speaker 2>like what and that's it, Like She's gone, yeah. This

0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:02.760
<v Speaker 2>movie is like it's just so ultimately around like whatever

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.560
<v Speaker 2>anything it might that people thought it was trying to say.

0:50:05.560 --> 0:50:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it really back pedals on at the

0:50:07.800 --> 0:50:10.160
<v Speaker 2>very last minute where it's like, but to be clear,

0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:13.840
<v Speaker 2>we were all straight systems, straight no worries.

0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:14.839
<v Speaker 4>Let's drink a beer.

0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Let's crack up cole One, Let's let's let's uh, let's

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:19.759
<v Speaker 2>put some P and to V and go.

0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:22.480
<v Speaker 3>Not men are men and women are women, And don't

0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:23.680
<v Speaker 3>get it confused.

0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:27.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay shows up to her place of work. He's like,

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:31.399
<v Speaker 2>you're my girlfriend now, and let's get out of here.

0:50:31.640 --> 0:50:34.760
<v Speaker 6>My favorite character was like, I feel like the beginning,

0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:38.200
<v Speaker 6>there's a crew member who has a headset. She's black,

0:50:38.280 --> 0:50:40.520
<v Speaker 6>and like I feel like she's like the only character

0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:44.200
<v Speaker 6>who like knows that Dorothy's a man. Like I feel

0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:46.800
<v Speaker 6>like like there's moments where she's kind of like looking around,

0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:47.560
<v Speaker 6>kind of just.

0:50:47.440 --> 0:50:50.440
<v Speaker 3>Like y'all see missed, Like what are we doing?

0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:51.920
<v Speaker 5>Like like what is happening?

0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:54.200
<v Speaker 6>Like I feel like I trusted her with my life,

0:50:54.239 --> 0:50:57.359
<v Speaker 6>Like I was like, this woman knows exactly what's going on,

0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:00.360
<v Speaker 6>but no one will listen to her. She's the rightest

0:51:00.400 --> 0:51:01.000
<v Speaker 6>person on.

0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.720
<v Speaker 3>Set, like in the way that black women are almost

0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:08.560
<v Speaker 3>always the most discerning exactly people in the room. And

0:51:08.600 --> 0:51:12.480
<v Speaker 3>if only she was given any lines of dialogue.

0:51:12.560 --> 0:51:15.319
<v Speaker 2>I kept waiting for her to have something to do,

0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's I learned a little more about the actor

0:51:19.320 --> 0:51:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Lynn Thigpen.

0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:23.680
<v Speaker 4>Who passed back in she died quite young.

0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:26.560
<v Speaker 2>She died in two thousand and three, in her fifties,

0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.320
<v Speaker 2>but she had again just like it is so frustrating,

0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.960
<v Speaker 2>especially when it's like the this is really the only

0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:36.399
<v Speaker 2>black character with like meaningful dialogue and she still has

0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:39.960
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do. And of course, like she's played by

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:45.399
<v Speaker 2>a like Tony Award winning, like incredible actor who had

0:51:45.440 --> 0:51:49.080
<v Speaker 2>like won in Obi won a Tony she okay, iconically

0:51:49.120 --> 0:51:53.040
<v Speaker 2>to me, to two millennial things that she's.

0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:53.279
<v Speaker 4>A part of.

0:51:53.320 --> 0:51:55.480
<v Speaker 2>She plays the chief in Where in the World is

0:51:55.480 --> 0:52:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Carmen San Diego? And she also plays the moon and

0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:05.320
<v Speaker 2>bearing the Big Blue House, right like I was, like, okay,

0:52:05.880 --> 0:52:09.040
<v Speaker 2>a legend. But of course, like this movie just completely

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:11.800
<v Speaker 2>squanders her talent and doesn't write her a character.

0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:14.200
<v Speaker 4>It's just a mess.

0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:15.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a mess.

0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:20.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think the reason the takeaway for so many people,

0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:26.600
<v Speaker 3>even though by our standards today feels like scraps, it's peanuts.

0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:30.280
<v Speaker 3>It's almost nothing. But at the very end, when Michael

0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:34.640
<v Speaker 3>approaches Julie and he says, I was a better man

0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:38.560
<v Speaker 3>with you as a woman than I ever was with

0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:42.239
<v Speaker 3>a woman as a man, I just got a line

0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:43.840
<v Speaker 3>to do it now without the dress.

0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:50.640
<v Speaker 2>He really thought he was doing something, Yeah, and she's.

0:52:50.440 --> 0:52:54.160
<v Speaker 3>Just might he might say that, and he might feel that,

0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:57.680
<v Speaker 3>but we don't see evidence of that. We're not shown

0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:03.840
<v Speaker 3>anything to that effect on screen. Yeah, so it falls

0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:04.480
<v Speaker 3>really flat.

0:53:04.719 --> 0:53:08.200
<v Speaker 2>I had saying I want to there. There was a

0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:11.200
<v Speaker 2>letterboxed review from a user I really like. Sally Jane

0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Black wrote a review of this movie a couple of

0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:16.479
<v Speaker 2>I think a couple of years back that I think

0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:19.480
<v Speaker 2>like kind of captures a lot of like why this

0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:20.839
<v Speaker 2>movie doesn't work.

0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:23.319
<v Speaker 4>So I just wanted to share a little bit of it.

0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:27.520
<v Speaker 2>She says, quote Feminism is not men learning to empathize

0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.200
<v Speaker 2>with women by using them. Feminism is not a man

0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:32.319
<v Speaker 2>praying on a woman who has been his friend for

0:53:32.440 --> 0:53:34.959
<v Speaker 2>years to keep up a lie. Feminism is not using

0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Michael's disgust at being kissed by a man as the

0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:41.399
<v Speaker 2>inspiration for his changing character to be stronger. Skipping ahead

0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:43.960
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, there is an undercurrent of turf thinking

0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:46.239
<v Speaker 2>here in the service of making a film addressing the

0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:49.400
<v Speaker 2>plight of cisgender women. This film presents the argument of

0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:52.719
<v Speaker 2>those right wing misogynists parading as quote unquote feminists that

0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.319
<v Speaker 2>men will dress as women to invade women's spaces, prey

0:53:55.360 --> 0:53:57.879
<v Speaker 2>on them, lie to them, manipulate them. That a man

0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:00.920
<v Speaker 2>presenting feminine is nothing but a predator. While this is

0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:03.520
<v Speaker 2>emphatically not a film about a trans woman, it still

0:54:03.600 --> 0:54:05.439
<v Speaker 2>rings in the hearts and minds of those who want

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:08.600
<v Speaker 2>to hate trans women. The argument is not, and should

0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:11.160
<v Speaker 2>not be walk a mile in our shoes. It should

0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:16.319
<v Speaker 2>be patriarchy holds you back too. It goes on from there.

0:54:16.400 --> 0:54:18.759
<v Speaker 2>It's a we can link it in the description. I

0:54:18.760 --> 0:54:21.960
<v Speaker 2>thought it was a really thoughtful review of this movie that,

0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:26.480
<v Speaker 2>of course random letterbox users were being absolutely unhinged in

0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the comments of oh god, but I think like she

0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:34.359
<v Speaker 2>she you know, sort of expands on also very regressive,

0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:38.600
<v Speaker 2>homophobic and transphobic and misogynist stereotypes that appear in this

0:54:38.680 --> 0:54:41.360
<v Speaker 2>movie and sort of try to tell you that it's

0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:44.280
<v Speaker 2>like a progressive, thoughtful character.

0:54:44.440 --> 0:54:47.520
<v Speaker 6>I don't know, I really I really like that so much.

0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:50.800
<v Speaker 6>It reminds me of do you guys watch We're Housewives

0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:52.320
<v Speaker 6>of Beverly Hills? By chance?

0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:53.000
<v Speaker 4>I have?

0:54:53.160 --> 0:54:56.239
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, Well, there's there's a nonprofit called like walk a

0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:59.680
<v Speaker 6>Mile or something, And there was one season where Taylor

0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:05.440
<v Speaker 6>wants all the husbands to be in this like marathon

0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:09.280
<v Speaker 6>race where the whole premise is that you're gonna run

0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:13.560
<v Speaker 6>in heels, and they're all cackling and all the husbands

0:55:13.600 --> 0:55:16.360
<v Speaker 6>are going, that's crazy, Like we have to wear heels

0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:19.040
<v Speaker 6>like you, and like it's supposed to raise money for

0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 6>like survivors of domestic abuse, and it literally the whole

0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:26.920
<v Speaker 6>thing's like how funny that this big man is gonna

0:55:26.920 --> 0:55:30.080
<v Speaker 6>wear these stupid little heels.

0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:30.800
<v Speaker 5>That we wear.

0:55:31.360 --> 0:55:34.879
<v Speaker 6>And it's like the whole thing is so gross and

0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:38.840
<v Speaker 6>so like like to me, this is the same culture

0:55:38.840 --> 0:55:42.960
<v Speaker 6>as TUTSI. It's like it's this such so so strange,

0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:48.000
<v Speaker 6>and it's about how different gender experiences like are supposed

0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.839
<v Speaker 6>to relate to each other and in like this like

0:55:50.960 --> 0:55:55.600
<v Speaker 6>umbrella of misogyny and it's really weird and gross and

0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:57.880
<v Speaker 6>it just reminds me of that, Like how funny that

0:55:58.239 --> 0:56:00.600
<v Speaker 6>these men are going to put heels on and it's

0:56:00.600 --> 0:56:02.960
<v Speaker 6>supposed to like raise money for women's survivors.

0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:04.440
<v Speaker 5>It's like that's so weird.

0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's insulting and bizarre.

0:56:09.520 --> 0:56:15.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, similar to again, even though Michael Dorsey is

0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:21.040
<v Speaker 3>a cis man pretending to be a woman. There's still

0:56:21.480 --> 0:56:25.360
<v Speaker 3>transphobia inherent in the way that everyone who knows about

0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:28.799
<v Speaker 3>what Michael is doing thinks it's weird and that he's

0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:31.040
<v Speaker 3>stick in the head, Oh my god, you're gonna wear

0:56:31.120 --> 0:56:33.800
<v Speaker 3>women's clothing out in public.

0:56:33.960 --> 0:56:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, and like crucially he really only ever talks to

0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:38.600
<v Speaker 2>other CIS men about.

0:56:38.320 --> 0:56:42.920
<v Speaker 3>This, right because it's George and Jeff and they're both like, ow, yucky,

0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:47.360
<v Speaker 3>what are you doing, you weirdo? And Michael's just like

0:56:47.640 --> 0:56:48.600
<v Speaker 3>shrug a.

0:56:48.719 --> 0:56:51.759
<v Speaker 6>Shrug, yeah, Like they never explicitly say it, but there's

0:56:51.760 --> 0:56:55.400
<v Speaker 6>this weird underlying feeling of like all the men being like,

0:56:55.520 --> 0:56:58.600
<v Speaker 6>of course we want to do this too, Like obviously

0:56:58.680 --> 0:57:00.480
<v Speaker 6>I want to wear a dress too, but that's it's

0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:04.440
<v Speaker 6>disgusting and shameful, and there's this like weird underlying current

0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:07.200
<v Speaker 6>of like of like, yeah, of course, like men would

0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:09.520
<v Speaker 6>be wearing dresses if we could, like, but we're not

0:57:09.520 --> 0:57:14.400
<v Speaker 6>supposed to. And like it's just like their whole relationship

0:57:14.480 --> 0:57:18.480
<v Speaker 6>to like cross dressing is this weird feeling of it

0:57:18.720 --> 0:57:23.160
<v Speaker 6>existing and it being very inherent in culture but so

0:57:23.200 --> 0:57:26.440
<v Speaker 6>shameful that like you obviously can't talk about it or

0:57:26.600 --> 0:57:29.000
<v Speaker 6>do it, but like the way they talk about it

0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:32.840
<v Speaker 6>is like this weird like knowingness that it's there and

0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:34.560
<v Speaker 6>it happens and that people do it.

0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:39.040
<v Speaker 2>You know what I'm saying, Yeah, no, I've it's so

0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:41.439
<v Speaker 2>like and and I think, going back to like something

0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:44.080
<v Speaker 2>you said earlier, Kaitlyn, it's just like if this was

0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:47.120
<v Speaker 2>the best that like pop culture had to offer at

0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:50.120
<v Speaker 2>the time, like what a sign of how bleak things

0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:53.240
<v Speaker 2>were at this time? Or there is this And there

0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 2>are two other movies I that I honestly have not

0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:57.600
<v Speaker 2>seen either of them, but they came out in either

0:57:57.680 --> 0:58:01.160
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two or nineteen eighty three that floor similar

0:58:02.040 --> 0:58:05.920
<v Speaker 2>themes as Victor Victoria with Julie Andrews comes out this

0:58:06.040 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 2>same year, and then Yentle with Barbistrays and comes out

0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:14.120
<v Speaker 2>the year after with what I understand to be similar premises.

0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I have not seen the movies, but like.

0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:19.440
<v Speaker 4>This was clearly like on like this was something that.

0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was there, it is it was in the

0:58:23.040 --> 0:58:26.560
<v Speaker 2>zeit guys at this time, but like not in a

0:58:26.640 --> 0:58:29.640
<v Speaker 2>way that it just feels like it's stopping short of

0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:34.560
<v Speaker 2>saying anything intentionally or like in this very Reagan eraw

0:58:34.600 --> 0:58:37.880
<v Speaker 2>way presenting something and then at the end saying well,

0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:41.640
<v Speaker 2>but never mind, and let's let's restore the quote unquote

0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:44.040
<v Speaker 2>normalcy and let's restore order.

0:58:44.360 --> 0:58:49.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, everyone take off your costume. Yeah, and live as

0:58:49.640 --> 0:58:51.840
<v Speaker 3>the gender you were assigned at birth.

0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:52.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:53.120 --> 0:58:54.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it was. It was.

0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:56.920
<v Speaker 6>It was interesting to watch this as a trans person

0:58:57.040 --> 0:59:01.360
<v Speaker 6>and kind of like see the progress that has been made,

0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:04.040
<v Speaker 6>Like I you know, we are regressing so much as

0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:07.520
<v Speaker 6>a society. Obviously if you look at anything that if

0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:09.960
<v Speaker 6>you're awake and you can see anything that's happened in

0:59:09.960 --> 0:59:14.040
<v Speaker 6>our country, it is terrifying for trans people. But with

0:59:14.160 --> 0:59:17.280
<v Speaker 6>that said, like it is crazy just to see the progress,

0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:20.040
<v Speaker 6>like as a trans person who's like in the industry,

0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:23.200
<v Speaker 6>it's like wow, like this is where we were at

0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.000
<v Speaker 6>that moment, Like you just there was like the jokes

0:59:26.040 --> 0:59:29.200
<v Speaker 6>that were made, the the only way people were interacted

0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:32.640
<v Speaker 6>with him cross dressing was through like psychiatry of like

0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:34.520
<v Speaker 6>like okay, you need to see a psychiatrist. You need

0:59:34.560 --> 0:59:37.840
<v Speaker 6>to like fix this and figure it out. And it

0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:40.800
<v Speaker 6>was crazy just to see that like there has been progress,

0:59:40.880 --> 0:59:43.880
<v Speaker 6>like there has been It's been amazing to see that

0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:47.960
<v Speaker 6>there's progress and that I don't know, just like I

0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.560
<v Speaker 6>forget I forget that that, Like, you know, we.

0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:57.080
<v Speaker 3>Have come away, yeah, comparatively, possibly a long way in

0:59:57.640 --> 1:00:01.520
<v Speaker 3>forty five years since this movie came out. Also with

1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:03.600
<v Speaker 3>all of the legislation.

1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:05.000
<v Speaker 6>And they're going back regressing.

1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:09.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but culturally there are significant differences where we actually

1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:14.320
<v Speaker 3>have trans characters on screen played by transactors.

1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:17.920
<v Speaker 6>I just remembered, like, was it last year something like

1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:23.200
<v Speaker 6>some right wing production company they released a movie about

1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:26.880
<v Speaker 6>like CIS men basketball players having to do drag and

1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:31.560
<v Speaker 6>be cross dress and be women to like play basketball. Really,

1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:36.160
<v Speaker 6>I like, yeah, yeah, I saw ads for it, and

1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:39.120
<v Speaker 6>I was like, wow, like we are back at Tutsi. Huh,

1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:42.120
<v Speaker 6>Like like that's so funny, Like we're back, We're back.

1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:45.800
<v Speaker 2>At Tutsi and now we're correctly classifying it as Republican.

1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:49.040
<v Speaker 4>That's so bizarre.

1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:54.120
<v Speaker 2>I yeah, yeah, I don't know. I rewatched a section

1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:58.320
<v Speaker 2>of Disclosure just because I remember Tutsy coming up quite

1:00:58.320 --> 1:01:01.640
<v Speaker 2>a bit in that documentary or like there's multiple clips

1:01:02.000 --> 1:01:05.120
<v Speaker 2>from it, and the section that I watched. I think

1:01:05.120 --> 1:01:07.720
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting that and just like a point that I

1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:11.360
<v Speaker 2>didn't consider on this first run, but how men in

1:01:11.560 --> 1:01:16.520
<v Speaker 2>drag in the eighties specifically were kind of often positioned

1:01:16.720 --> 1:01:19.400
<v Speaker 2>as a way to make it in a way that

1:01:19.440 --> 1:01:23.040
<v Speaker 2>we see all the time seem like women had it

1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:27.400
<v Speaker 2>better than men at this time. Women had more opportunities.

1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:30.160
<v Speaker 2>And there was I forget what the other eighties movie was,

1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:32.840
<v Speaker 2>but they used Tutsi as an example of like, well,

1:01:32.920 --> 1:01:36.600
<v Speaker 2>a man in drag has a chance of being more

1:01:36.640 --> 1:01:41.320
<v Speaker 2>successful in a professional environment, which is just like so

1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:45.560
<v Speaker 2>ridiculous on premise, and would be treated better and paid

1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:47.920
<v Speaker 2>more and respected more than if they were just a

1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:50.960
<v Speaker 2>random guy. And then there was a different movie that

1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:52.520
<v Speaker 2>was cited that I wish I could remember the name

1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:55.240
<v Speaker 2>of that is even more ridiculous, where it's like men

1:01:55.280 --> 1:01:58.200
<v Speaker 2>in drag that are like the plot narrative is that

1:01:58.240 --> 1:02:01.960
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to get better house, and you're like, in

1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:06.000
<v Speaker 2>what world it's I don't know. I'm sure that someone

1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:09.880
<v Speaker 2>has written a like doctoral thesis on why exactly this

1:02:10.000 --> 1:02:11.680
<v Speaker 2>was happening in this moment, but it was like you

1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:15.720
<v Speaker 2>see it again and again, it's just bizarre.

1:02:15.960 --> 1:02:18.160
<v Speaker 6>It just reminds me of the eighties in terms of, like,

1:02:18.960 --> 1:02:22.480
<v Speaker 6>in terms of women's liberation of like, you know, sexuality

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:24.680
<v Speaker 6>is power, Like I feel like it was you know,

1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:27.960
<v Speaker 6>the seventies at the sixties, Like now I'm going back

1:02:28.040 --> 1:02:31.040
<v Speaker 6>multiple decades, but I just feel like with like liberation,

1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:33.680
<v Speaker 6>it must have been some sort of pushback and some

1:02:33.720 --> 1:02:37.960
<v Speaker 6>sort of like pushback against this, like women being sexually

1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:41.760
<v Speaker 6>free and being like, oh so now you're like because

1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:45.520
<v Speaker 6>you know, with misogynists like only viewing women as sexual objects,

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:49.320
<v Speaker 6>and like, I just feel like there's some weird relationship

1:02:49.400 --> 1:02:52.520
<v Speaker 6>between like women being more sexually liberated and being like,

1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:55.200
<v Speaker 6>oh so now you have privilege and now you can

1:02:55.400 --> 1:02:59.160
<v Speaker 6>like have more than men because you know, I can

1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:02.280
<v Speaker 6>only look at you as sexual object or something.

1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:05.280
<v Speaker 3>Right, and that threatens people, And that's why there's always

1:03:05.400 --> 1:03:10.320
<v Speaker 3>the cycles of progress and then backlash and then progress.

1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:13.760
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's why there's so much anti trans legislation

1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:17.920
<v Speaker 3>happening right now, because trans people are more visible and

1:03:18.960 --> 1:03:22.280
<v Speaker 3>freer to exist in the world than they once were,

1:03:22.640 --> 1:03:27.360
<v Speaker 3>and that upsets a lot of horrible people and hence

1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:28.240
<v Speaker 3>the pushback.

1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:31.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I mean, yeah, like what you were saying, I

1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:35.000
<v Speaker 6>know you were talking specifically about drag, but in terms

1:03:35.000 --> 1:03:38.000
<v Speaker 6>of like the trans experience, Like I feel like there

1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:42.400
<v Speaker 6>is a lot of hatred of specifically men towards trans

1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:46.880
<v Speaker 6>women because men are miserable and they even with all

1:03:46.920 --> 1:03:51.120
<v Speaker 6>the privilege that they experience, they're so deeply unhappy. And

1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:56.320
<v Speaker 6>when they see someone feeling liberated, someone taking their destiny

1:03:56.320 --> 1:04:00.280
<v Speaker 6>into their own hands and a symbol of freedom, it

1:04:00.320 --> 1:04:04.080
<v Speaker 6>makes them angry, so angry that they're still stuck in

1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:08.320
<v Speaker 6>that prison of masculinity, that even with all the privilege

1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:11.760
<v Speaker 6>that they get, makes them so deeply unhappy because they

1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:15.080
<v Speaker 6>can't be allowed to feel and have emotion and all

1:04:15.120 --> 1:04:20.000
<v Speaker 6>those you know, whatever the weird gender politics that we have.

1:04:20.760 --> 1:04:23.000
<v Speaker 6>And then it comes also from CIS women, where like

1:04:23.040 --> 1:04:25.160
<v Speaker 6>they see trans women and they go, you're just a

1:04:25.200 --> 1:04:28.200
<v Speaker 6>man and you have the privileges of a man and

1:04:28.520 --> 1:04:31.640
<v Speaker 6>now you're a woman, but you but you were socialized

1:04:31.680 --> 1:04:34.840
<v Speaker 6>as a man, and there's a lot of anger there,

1:04:35.000 --> 1:04:39.000
<v Speaker 6>and you know, trans people can't win. It's like, you know,

1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:41.840
<v Speaker 6>you're just you're really put in that position where you're

1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.560
<v Speaker 6>just like I don't want to be a symbol for anything.

1:04:44.600 --> 1:04:46.960
<v Speaker 6>I just I'm just a person and I don't.

1:04:46.720 --> 1:04:47.840
<v Speaker 3>Want to live.

1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:51.560
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I just you know, in today's trans today of visibility,

1:04:51.680 --> 1:04:55.000
<v Speaker 6>like right now, visibility sucks. It sucks to be visible

1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:58.160
<v Speaker 6>as a transperson, right now because of all the attacks

1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:02.280
<v Speaker 6>and all the you know, horrible stuff that's going on

1:05:02.400 --> 1:05:06.600
<v Speaker 6>again trans people the transity visibility as a phrase is

1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:07.200
<v Speaker 6>so weird.

1:05:07.360 --> 1:05:08.640
<v Speaker 5>It's like I.

1:05:08.560 --> 1:05:10.840
<v Speaker 6>Don't know who wrote that, but they it should have

1:05:10.840 --> 1:05:14.120
<v Speaker 6>been punched up, like transity of visibility is so weird,

1:05:14.200 --> 1:05:18.320
<v Speaker 6>Like like what do you mean visibility? Transity of empowerment?

1:05:18.520 --> 1:05:20.360
<v Speaker 6>Like there's so many better words.

1:05:20.720 --> 1:05:24.560
<v Speaker 2>I feel that way about a lot of taglines of

1:05:24.600 --> 1:05:27.160
<v Speaker 2>that nature, where sometimes it's like even when someone's like

1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:30.120
<v Speaker 2>you are valid or whatever, you're like, can we like

1:05:30.280 --> 1:05:32.960
<v Speaker 2>do a little better than that? Like I don't know,

1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:35.720
<v Speaker 2>it just feels like I given, of course everyone deserves

1:05:35.760 --> 1:05:39.000
<v Speaker 2>to be visible, but then what's so weird?

1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:43.560
<v Speaker 3>I almost feel the same way about like International Women's Day,

1:05:43.720 --> 1:05:46.960
<v Speaker 3>where I'm just like, okay, thanks for being nice to

1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:52.160
<v Speaker 3>me and acknowledging women this one day, But like what

1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:53.680
<v Speaker 3>if we could just do that all the.

1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:58.240
<v Speaker 2>Time or or that I mean, I whatever, like let

1:05:58.880 --> 1:06:02.720
<v Speaker 2>women exist, like the word exists bothers me too.

1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:05.560
<v Speaker 4>You're like, yeah, that, I don't think.

1:06:05.360 --> 1:06:08.720
<v Speaker 2>We're asking for enough. I think we should be asking

1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:11.360
<v Speaker 2>for more than visibility and existence.

1:06:11.880 --> 1:06:16.960
<v Speaker 6>Also, if you can't like afford groceries or like gas

1:06:17.040 --> 1:06:20.320
<v Speaker 6>or like if you can't have like healthcare, it's like

1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:25.240
<v Speaker 6>who cares? How like visible or invisible or like if

1:06:25.280 --> 1:06:27.320
<v Speaker 6>it's your day, or like it's like who the fuck

1:06:27.360 --> 1:06:30.680
<v Speaker 6>cares if none of us can survive, Like you have

1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:34.640
<v Speaker 6>to survive to exist, Like you can't exist without food.

1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:38.840
<v Speaker 6>Like it's just I feel like it's so patronizing to

1:06:39.000 --> 1:06:41.880
<v Speaker 6>just like try to have these days highlighting people when

1:06:41.920 --> 1:06:45.600
<v Speaker 6>it's like we just as people are trying to like survive, Like,

1:06:46.160 --> 1:06:48.080
<v Speaker 6>h it just makes me very angry against like the

1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:50.800
<v Speaker 6>billionaire class. I'm sorry, I just get very that's exactly.

1:06:50.880 --> 1:06:54.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like okay, for the other three hundred and

1:06:54.320 --> 1:06:57.560
<v Speaker 3>sixty four days of the year, can you pay me enough?

1:06:57.880 --> 1:07:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yeah? Like live the patronizing, Like how how so

1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:06.280
<v Speaker 2>many social movements were like co opted by like companies

1:07:06.320 --> 1:07:08.400
<v Speaker 2>for like one day out of the year to be like,

1:07:08.720 --> 1:07:14.400
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah today, like Shelle Gasoline loves trans people.

1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:16.960
<v Speaker 4>And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

1:07:17.200 --> 1:07:18.040
<v Speaker 4>Like I got an.

1:07:21.080 --> 1:07:24.960
<v Speaker 3>I got an email from an escape room place that

1:07:25.160 --> 1:07:30.360
<v Speaker 3>was like happy International Women's Day, women get forty off

1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:35.000
<v Speaker 3>of an escape room, and I'm like existent and patriarchy

1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:36.440
<v Speaker 3>is an escape room.

1:07:37.120 --> 1:07:39.000
<v Speaker 6>Oh my god, that's so funny.

1:07:39.320 --> 1:07:43.280
<v Speaker 2>That's great. I remember one of my favorite like commentary

1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:48.720
<v Speaker 2>on that kind of like patronizing representation, no politics stuff

1:07:49.080 --> 1:07:52.680
<v Speaker 2>was I think it was Iffy wady Way. During the

1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:56.280
<v Speaker 2>George Floyd protests in twenty twenty, he made a fake

1:07:56.360 --> 1:08:03.000
<v Speaker 2>post from Spaghettios Spaghettio says black lives matter, and it

1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:05.560
<v Speaker 2>just like it was so funny and like just perfectly

1:08:05.720 --> 1:08:08.200
<v Speaker 2>was like what what does what does it mean? What

1:08:08.200 --> 1:08:11.840
<v Speaker 2>does it mean to say Spaghettio's believes that black lives matter?

1:08:12.760 --> 1:08:14.760
<v Speaker 2>What is Spaghettio's doing about.

1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:18.600
<v Speaker 6>My favorite version of that? And this was not even commentary,

1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:22.000
<v Speaker 6>this was real life is on. There was one year

1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:26.160
<v Speaker 6>for International Women's Day where Burger King tweeted and was like,

1:08:26.240 --> 1:08:29.599
<v Speaker 6>we think that women belong in the kitchen. And then

1:08:29.640 --> 1:08:32.240
<v Speaker 6>it was like it was like highlighting their like their

1:08:32.280 --> 1:08:36.160
<v Speaker 6>like management program, and it was like this is nuts,

1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:37.320
<v Speaker 6>this is nuts.

1:08:37.520 --> 1:08:39.479
<v Speaker 5>You can't do this, you can't do this.

1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:42.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh they think women belong.

1:08:42.360 --> 1:08:45.320
<v Speaker 6>In Yeah, said we think that women belong in the kitchen,

1:08:45.360 --> 1:08:48.639
<v Speaker 6>and then it had a link to their like program, Yeah, what.

1:08:48.479 --> 1:08:50.920
<v Speaker 4>Are we doing? What's going on?

1:08:51.280 --> 1:08:51.840
<v Speaker 3>Exactly?

1:08:52.160 --> 1:08:55.719
<v Speaker 6>I feel nostalgia for those days we've things have gotten

1:08:55.760 --> 1:09:00.840
<v Speaker 6>so bad that I'm missing the performative representation I miss I.

1:09:00.800 --> 1:09:04.799
<v Speaker 2>Miss banks celebrating pride. I miss Bank of America pride

1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:08.080
<v Speaker 2>because that I mean, like speaking to your point like

1:09:08.439 --> 1:09:11.280
<v Speaker 2>that isn't even really happening anymore. Like they're like, oh,

1:09:11.320 --> 1:09:13.400
<v Speaker 2>we don't need to pretend to be an ally anymore.

1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:14.679
<v Speaker 6>There's no more pretending.

1:09:15.240 --> 1:09:19.080
<v Speaker 2>Ugh, I mean it's yeah, I do feel weirdly.

1:09:19.400 --> 1:09:19.680
<v Speaker 4>I was.

1:09:19.760 --> 1:09:22.280
<v Speaker 2>I think when that like twenty sixteen trend was going on,

1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:26.559
<v Speaker 2>it was miserable, but you're just like, wow, people used

1:09:26.560 --> 1:09:30.080
<v Speaker 2>to fake allies better, like.

1:09:30.080 --> 1:09:32.519
<v Speaker 6>Billionaires used to pretend like they didn't want us all

1:09:32.600 --> 1:09:35.000
<v Speaker 6>dad like they like they used to be like no,

1:09:35.040 --> 1:09:38.080
<v Speaker 6>we we want you to be alive. And now no

1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:40.200
<v Speaker 6>more of that. It's like, no, we want you to

1:09:40.240 --> 1:09:42.600
<v Speaker 6>die and like you need to die.

1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:45.200
<v Speaker 2>It's like what well, it's and I think that like

1:09:45.560 --> 1:09:47.840
<v Speaker 2>getting back to to see like, I think that there

1:09:48.000 --> 1:09:53.240
<v Speaker 2>is that energy thereof like the feminism that Dorothy Michaels

1:09:53.240 --> 1:09:57.960
<v Speaker 2>represents is catchphrase feminism and she's a Republican.

1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:00.880
<v Speaker 6>For out of the way, Dorothy is a Republican.

1:10:01.640 --> 1:10:05.639
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, for sure, there's a scene where Dorothy as

1:10:05.640 --> 1:10:08.360
<v Speaker 3>Miss Kimberly on the show. In one of her what

1:10:08.479 --> 1:10:13.160
<v Speaker 3>is supposed to be an empowering speech that she gives

1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:18.559
<v Speaker 3>on set, she's talking to a patient who has been

1:10:19.280 --> 1:10:25.920
<v Speaker 3>violently abused by her husband, and Miss Kimberly is like,

1:10:26.720 --> 1:10:29.320
<v Speaker 3>if you're being beaten by your husband, then you should

1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:32.479
<v Speaker 3>just beat your husband back. That's what I would do.

1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:37.479
<v Speaker 3>And she's discouraging her from extracting herself and her children

1:10:37.760 --> 1:10:42.280
<v Speaker 3>from this abusive relationship. She's like, no, just beaten back.

1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:47.160
<v Speaker 2>It's all very like U. And also the actor there

1:10:47.320 --> 1:10:50.519
<v Speaker 2>was like it disagrees with I don't know, it's just

1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:54.160
<v Speaker 2>always like Dorothy has to be the most feminist in

1:10:54.200 --> 1:10:57.959
<v Speaker 2>the room, even though Michael's behavior bears this out. Negative

1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:02.600
<v Speaker 2>twenty percent doesn't make any sense speaking going back to

1:11:02.960 --> 1:11:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Dorothy Michaels is a Republican. The second you said that, Nori,

1:11:05.520 --> 1:11:07.920
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, she kind of like Dorothy Michaels

1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:12.839
<v Speaker 2>kind of looks like Anita Bryant, like homophobia Era Bryant,

1:11:13.439 --> 1:11:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Like it's.

1:11:14.200 --> 1:11:18.439
<v Speaker 6>So true, that's so true. Like the costuming, Yeah, like

1:11:18.520 --> 1:11:19.040
<v Speaker 6>that is.

1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:20.840
<v Speaker 4>Her, Yeah, yeah, like she is.

1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:23.760
<v Speaker 2>She's a friend to no one I just don't under

1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:26.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know Dorothy Michaels at best is talking in

1:11:26.479 --> 1:11:31.160
<v Speaker 2>these platitudes that are also clearly written by men, which

1:11:31.600 --> 1:11:34.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, I could see someone arguing is commentary, but

1:11:34.280 --> 1:11:37.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not, because it's like, it can't really be commentary

1:11:37.520 --> 1:11:40.320
<v Speaker 2>on TV that much because we don't really know who's

1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:43.160
<v Speaker 2>making the TV. We can assume that it's a room

1:11:43.200 --> 1:11:45.760
<v Speaker 2>full of sismen, but we don't see that. We don't

1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:49.439
<v Speaker 2>understand why this woman producer has no power on her

1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:52.639
<v Speaker 2>own show. We don't know what the one black woman

1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:55.120
<v Speaker 2>in the movie is thinking at any time that the

1:11:55.160 --> 1:11:57.479
<v Speaker 2>actor isn't like, you know, putting into her eyes.

1:11:57.520 --> 1:12:02.000
<v Speaker 6>Basically, I have a question, Oh please, if this movie

1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:04.439
<v Speaker 6>was made today, how do you think it would end?

1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:06.040
<v Speaker 4>Okay?

1:12:06.040 --> 1:12:08.639
<v Speaker 2>So I have sort of a good answer to that

1:12:08.720 --> 1:12:13.320
<v Speaker 2>because this movie was adapted for Broadway recently, Yeah, within.

1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:15.799
<v Speaker 3>The past like six or seven years, I think, right.

1:12:15.640 --> 1:12:20.240
<v Speaker 2>And like one Tony's and all of this stuff. It's

1:12:20.280 --> 1:12:25.400
<v Speaker 2>weird because not very there were lines that changed, but

1:12:25.520 --> 1:12:28.639
<v Speaker 2>there was not a lot about the plot that changed. Sorry,

1:12:28.680 --> 1:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>I have uh I did this research about a week ago,

1:12:31.439 --> 1:12:33.720
<v Speaker 2>so I need a second up to pull it up.

1:12:33.760 --> 1:12:36.519
<v Speaker 2>But I think the main difference was that there was

1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:42.519
<v Speaker 2>a lot of queer criticism of the Broadway musical, being like, well, what.

1:12:42.360 --> 1:12:45.040
<v Speaker 4>The hell like what was that?

1:12:45.960 --> 1:12:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Because it was once again written and directed by sis

1:12:51.320 --> 1:12:57.040
<v Speaker 2>straight guys, the Broadway Musical was praised in the general sense.

1:12:57.080 --> 1:13:01.240
<v Speaker 2>It was nominated for Tony's it did well. The setting

1:13:01.320 --> 1:13:05.720
<v Speaker 2>was changed from soap operas to I think Broadway, but

1:13:06.120 --> 1:13:09.400
<v Speaker 2>there was a ton of criticism around how little changed.

1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:10.920
<v Speaker 6>Ah my god.

1:13:11.200 --> 1:13:13.200
<v Speaker 2>It reminded me of a conversation we had on our

1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:17.200
<v Speaker 2>two Wong Fu episode Caitlin, because that had a similar

1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:20.920
<v Speaker 2>trajectory as did Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. They were

1:13:20.960 --> 1:13:23.840
<v Speaker 2>also both adapted into Broadway and like didn't do a

1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:27.519
<v Speaker 2>lot of course correcting on the flawed source material.

1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Thanks.

1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know, I feel like depressingly, the answer

1:13:32.120 --> 1:13:34.280
<v Speaker 2>is maybe I don't. I don't know how differently it

1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:36.639
<v Speaker 2>ends a what do y'all think?

1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:38.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Yeah, do you have a pitch for.

1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:41.600
<v Speaker 6>I haven't thought too much about it, but I think, like,

1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:45.439
<v Speaker 6>I think there would be the speech would be different.

1:13:45.800 --> 1:13:48.720
<v Speaker 6>I think it would include what he learned. Maybe this

1:13:48.800 --> 1:13:50.880
<v Speaker 6>is more hopeful than maybe this is, like what I

1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.320
<v Speaker 6>would hope rather than like what would actually happen, as

1:13:53.360 --> 1:13:56.599
<v Speaker 6>you just said, what the it got rebooted and nothing changed,

1:13:56.880 --> 1:13:59.880
<v Speaker 6>But like I just would hope that like there would

1:13:59.880 --> 1:14:02.640
<v Speaker 6>be a different speech, Like there would just be some

1:14:02.680 --> 1:14:05.200
<v Speaker 6>different speech. Yeah, and him and Julie would not get

1:14:05.240 --> 1:14:07.880
<v Speaker 6>back together. They would not He would not be able

1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:10.240
<v Speaker 6>to get with her. He would have a really hard

1:14:10.280 --> 1:14:13.519
<v Speaker 6>conversation with with the character the woman.

1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:15.120
<v Speaker 4>That he was leading on Sandy.

1:14:15.280 --> 1:14:17.000
<v Speaker 6>I think he would not win in the end. He

1:14:17.040 --> 1:14:21.000
<v Speaker 6>would win nothing. He would have lost everything, and I

1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:23.760
<v Speaker 6>think would just have to like live with like that.

1:14:23.760 --> 1:14:26.639
<v Speaker 6>That was weird that he did a weird thing.

1:14:27.040 --> 1:14:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is like not even punishment enough really, like, yeah, yeah.

1:14:33.560 --> 1:14:35.400
<v Speaker 3>He should donate all the money he earned on the

1:14:35.439 --> 1:14:36.360
<v Speaker 3>show too.

1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:40.920
<v Speaker 6>Yes, yes, the women, Yes, yes.

1:14:41.240 --> 1:14:41.679
<v Speaker 4>The way.

1:14:41.840 --> 1:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious what you both think about Julie's storyline. I

1:14:47.920 --> 1:14:52.400
<v Speaker 2>thought Julie to be so perplexing. There are elements of

1:14:52.439 --> 1:14:55.479
<v Speaker 2>her that like, I don't know. There were like little

1:14:55.520 --> 1:14:58.040
<v Speaker 2>commentary bits to Julie's character that I was like.

1:14:58.000 --> 1:14:58.679
<v Speaker 4>That's interesting.

1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:01.080
<v Speaker 2>We won't be getting it to it, but that's interesting.

1:15:01.640 --> 1:15:04.240
<v Speaker 2>One of the more subtle things is that she does

1:15:04.280 --> 1:15:08.679
<v Speaker 2>not discuss publicly that she is a mother. I thought

1:15:08.680 --> 1:15:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that was a kind of that felt like actual effective

1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:15.760
<v Speaker 2>commentary of like, well, being a mother and being an

1:15:15.800 --> 1:15:19.000
<v Speaker 2>unmarried mother, you would be perceived as unattractive or old

1:15:19.120 --> 1:15:21.519
<v Speaker 2>or whatever it was, and so she doesn't talk about

1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:24.320
<v Speaker 2>her child publicly and only sort of tells people that

1:15:24.400 --> 1:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighty two version of A Green Circle,

1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:34.599
<v Speaker 2>because there there is clearly some stigma with that. You know,

1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>there is some light commentary on how poorly women were

1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:43.759
<v Speaker 2>represented in TV at this time, but again it's completely

1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>undercut by the fact that, like I mean, in the

1:15:47.520 --> 1:15:50.439
<v Speaker 2>I think when we meet Julie, she's she's like, Hi,

1:15:50.520 --> 1:15:53.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm the slutty nurse, and then you're like, well, because that, yeah,

1:15:53.680 --> 1:15:56.759
<v Speaker 2>that's the character that has been written for her, right

1:15:56.920 --> 1:15:59.760
<v Speaker 2>she has to play. And it's not that she is

1:15:59.800 --> 1:16:02.720
<v Speaker 2>an aware of that. It's that she is accepted that,

1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:05.439
<v Speaker 2>like she or you know, it's like sort of position

1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>like she's accepted that there she will never be treated differently,

1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:12.200
<v Speaker 2>so so like might as well laugh about it, which

1:16:12.280 --> 1:16:15.800
<v Speaker 2>is like, sure, you can fall into complacency when you're

1:16:15.920 --> 1:16:18.160
<v Speaker 2>when you don't think you'll ever be treated like a

1:16:18.200 --> 1:16:22.320
<v Speaker 2>person at work. But then the movie sort of posits like,

1:16:22.479 --> 1:16:26.479
<v Speaker 2>and so what she needed was Michael Dorsey to make

1:16:26.520 --> 1:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>her realize that wasn't.

1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:35.240
<v Speaker 3>Okay teach her about feminism, right, Yeah, yes, that is baffling. Also,

1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:40.440
<v Speaker 3>later on, she's talking about how how much she values

1:16:40.560 --> 1:16:44.839
<v Speaker 3>Dorothy as a friend and how much Dorothy has taught

1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:47.519
<v Speaker 3>her and inspired her, and that's why she breaks up

1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:51.799
<v Speaker 3>with Ron, and I'm like, okay, but like that breakup

1:16:51.840 --> 1:16:54.880
<v Speaker 3>scene happens off screen, I don't really have any other

1:16:55.240 --> 1:16:56.240
<v Speaker 3>any other indication.

1:16:56.720 --> 1:16:58.519
<v Speaker 6>Didn't she come back and say she didn't or did

1:16:58.520 --> 1:16:59.920
<v Speaker 6>I make that up? I feel like I have a

1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:02.240
<v Speaker 6>memory that she was like I didn't do it, or

1:17:02.320 --> 1:17:02.760
<v Speaker 6>like she.

1:17:02.680 --> 1:17:05.680
<v Speaker 3>Does eventually, and then she says like, I'm lonely. Who

1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:08.280
<v Speaker 3>am I gonna have dinner with now? And I think

1:17:08.439 --> 1:17:12.679
<v Speaker 3>she says something that almost implies that Dorothy teaching her

1:17:12.960 --> 1:17:16.880
<v Speaker 3>about standing up for herself and being empowered as a woman,

1:17:17.640 --> 1:17:20.400
<v Speaker 3>like has made her lonely and made her because of

1:17:20.439 --> 1:17:26.080
<v Speaker 3>the awareness she has, she's now like unhappy with the

1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:30.040
<v Speaker 3>world and power dynamics and stuff like that, which fair

1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:34.960
<v Speaker 3>like people who are aware and informed and enlightened are

1:17:35.000 --> 1:17:37.880
<v Speaker 3>also often deeply unhappy because of.

1:17:39.560 --> 1:17:41.599
<v Speaker 2>I was like, well, I mean I can really I

1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:46.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't yet, So I'm not criticizing that's my perhaps my

1:17:46.160 --> 1:17:49.680
<v Speaker 2>lived experience. That's exactly how I feel right now. So yeah,

1:17:49.680 --> 1:17:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not criticizing that. And I'm also maybe just reading

1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:56.840
<v Speaker 2>into it because she doesn't explicitly say that. But what

1:17:56.960 --> 1:17:59.400
<v Speaker 2>we do know, or what she does say, is that

1:17:59.720 --> 1:18:03.320
<v Speaker 2>Dora Dorothy has taught her so much because Dorothy's always herself,

1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:06.080
<v Speaker 2>and the joke is, well, Dorothy isn't herself, that's not

1:18:06.120 --> 1:18:10.599
<v Speaker 2>even Dorothy, that's a guy named Michael Dorsey, but Michael

1:18:10.640 --> 1:18:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Dorsey as Dorothy has taught Julie how to be an

1:18:14.880 --> 1:18:15.759
<v Speaker 2>empowered woman.

1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:18.479
<v Speaker 3>But I'm also just not really seeing evidence of that,

1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:21.919
<v Speaker 3>so I don't know what she's talking about.

1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think like any progress in Julie's character is

1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:28.200
<v Speaker 2>spurred by Dorothy, and at the end that it just

1:18:28.280 --> 1:18:32.760
<v Speaker 2>ends up being like kind of sad, h when you.

1:18:32.720 --> 1:18:35.240
<v Speaker 6>Say sad like one of the saddest scenes for me

1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:39.960
<v Speaker 6>is when Michael is so late to that dinner that

1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:43.519
<v Speaker 6>h oh with Sandy, such Sandy makes and then like

1:18:43.760 --> 1:18:46.160
<v Speaker 6>he's like you should be mad at me, be mad

1:18:46.200 --> 1:18:49.479
<v Speaker 6>at me, Like don't apologize and like them putting her

1:18:49.560 --> 1:18:54.439
<v Speaker 6>character in such a low point that the perpetrator is

1:18:54.520 --> 1:18:57.200
<v Speaker 6>telling her like, why are you not mad at me?

1:18:57.320 --> 1:19:00.760
<v Speaker 6>It's like, yeah, like you wrote the scene, Like you

1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:02.679
<v Speaker 6>wrote the scene, and you wrote it to where she's

1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:05.519
<v Speaker 6>that pathetic. That really was sad.

1:19:05.760 --> 1:19:08.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh it really bummed me out. Yeah, where it's like

1:19:09.240 --> 1:19:12.879
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, for the only like Julie and Sandy

1:19:13.640 --> 1:19:16.800
<v Speaker 2>both hot, white blonde ladies, so already.

1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:18.160
<v Speaker 4>You're like, Okay, this is what the movie's doing.

1:19:18.400 --> 1:19:21.880
<v Speaker 2>But Sandy is just treated so horribly by the plot

1:19:21.960 --> 1:19:24.799
<v Speaker 2>in a way that like, I think that we're supposed

1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:27.400
<v Speaker 2>to I mean, obviously Michael having sex with her is

1:19:27.479 --> 1:19:30.960
<v Speaker 2>framed as a joke, even though it's like co weird,

1:19:31.120 --> 1:19:34.400
<v Speaker 2>coercive sex, and then he treats her poorly for the

1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:35.360
<v Speaker 2>rest of the movie.

1:19:36.040 --> 1:19:37.240
<v Speaker 4>It just made me so sad.

1:19:37.280 --> 1:19:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, watching her with the with the food alone and

1:19:40.200 --> 1:19:42.080
<v Speaker 2>then immediately forgiving him.

1:19:42.479 --> 1:19:43.040
<v Speaker 4>I do.

1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:47.600
<v Speaker 2>I like when she lashes out at him. I like

1:19:47.680 --> 1:19:49.439
<v Speaker 2>that when she says I never said I love you.

1:19:49.520 --> 1:19:51.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't care about I love you. I read the

1:19:51.560 --> 1:19:54.040
<v Speaker 2>second this is all very second my feminism. I read

1:19:54.080 --> 1:19:57.120
<v Speaker 2>the second sex. I read the Cinderella complex. I'm responsible

1:19:57.160 --> 1:19:59.240
<v Speaker 2>for my own orgasm. I don't care. I just don't

1:19:59.280 --> 1:20:02.719
<v Speaker 2>like to be lied to. I feel like there's something

1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:06.160
<v Speaker 2>in there, but it doesn't pay off in any any way.

1:20:06.200 --> 1:20:09.040
<v Speaker 2>It's just sort of like lip service because like Terry

1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:11.640
<v Speaker 2>garr is selling me on it. I do think that

1:20:11.680 --> 1:20:14.879
<v Speaker 2>there is I mean going back to like the idea

1:20:14.960 --> 1:20:19.519
<v Speaker 2>that like being empowered can also translate to feeling kind

1:20:19.520 --> 1:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>of isolated and lonely. That's sort of what she's saying here.

1:20:22.800 --> 1:20:25.080
<v Speaker 2>She's like, I am a feminist.

1:20:25.200 --> 1:20:26.639
<v Speaker 4>I you know, I've.

1:20:26.840 --> 1:20:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I've done the work, I'm doing my best, and I

1:20:29.800 --> 1:20:31.600
<v Speaker 2>just I feel like shit, I just want to be

1:20:31.640 --> 1:20:34.920
<v Speaker 2>treated like a person by you, and like there's like

1:20:35.000 --> 1:20:39.720
<v Speaker 2>there's there's like truth in that. Unfortunately he never does that,

1:20:40.280 --> 1:20:42.040
<v Speaker 2>so like why bother.

1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:43.920
<v Speaker 3>He never tells her he was lying to her the

1:20:43.960 --> 1:20:47.040
<v Speaker 3>whole time, He never apologizes, he never comes clean in

1:20:47.040 --> 1:20:50.599
<v Speaker 3>any way. She just never appears on screen after that scene,

1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:53.719
<v Speaker 3>So there's no resolution there. Yeah, like you said, Jamie,

1:20:53.720 --> 1:20:58.120
<v Speaker 3>like them having sex feels very like he tricks her.

1:20:58.280 --> 1:21:01.639
<v Speaker 3>He lies about his intention of why he was naked.

1:21:02.000 --> 1:21:04.200
<v Speaker 3>There's also a weird thing where she sees him and

1:21:04.240 --> 1:21:09.439
<v Speaker 3>she's like, Michael Parentheses horrified. But then she's like Michael

1:21:09.840 --> 1:21:14.200
<v Speaker 3>Parentheses in True Morning, I'm like, Okay, what the hell

1:21:14.280 --> 1:21:16.160
<v Speaker 3>is this? And then he's like, yeah, I want you.

1:21:16.800 --> 1:21:19.479
<v Speaker 3>And then so they have sex. She says something like

1:21:20.200 --> 1:21:22.280
<v Speaker 3>men have sex with me and then they lose interest

1:21:22.439 --> 1:21:24.720
<v Speaker 3>and they ignore me, and I don't want that to

1:21:24.800 --> 1:21:29.680
<v Speaker 3>be this way. But also, the movie is so all

1:21:29.720 --> 1:21:32.080
<v Speaker 3>over the place with how it characterizes her, because for

1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:35.240
<v Speaker 3>most of the time, it seems like like the way

1:21:35.280 --> 1:21:39.679
<v Speaker 3>she's waiting around and constantly being stood up by Michael,

1:21:40.360 --> 1:21:43.320
<v Speaker 3>the movie wants you to think that she's pining after

1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:47.040
<v Speaker 3>him and expecting to get into a serious, committed relationship

1:21:47.040 --> 1:21:50.800
<v Speaker 3>with him. But then at the end she says, I

1:21:50.840 --> 1:21:53.200
<v Speaker 3>don't even care about any of that. I just don't

1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:57.040
<v Speaker 3>want to be lied to, which fair, But then what

1:21:57.120 --> 1:21:59.280
<v Speaker 3>was all that other stuff where the movie makes it

1:21:59.320 --> 1:22:03.360
<v Speaker 3>seem like she does deeply care about that stuff. So yeah,

1:22:03.400 --> 1:22:05.360
<v Speaker 3>I just feel like the movie cannot make up its

1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:09.840
<v Speaker 3>mind on how we are supposed to perceive her how

1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:12.240
<v Speaker 3>she actually feels about the situation.

1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:15.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, and also there's a big to do made of

1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:17.599
<v Speaker 2>like she doesn't want to do the play with him

1:22:17.600 --> 1:22:20.960
<v Speaker 2>anymore because he's been so deceptive. And then at the end,

1:22:21.080 --> 1:22:23.639
<v Speaker 2>the only indication of her existence is.

1:22:23.560 --> 1:22:25.280
<v Speaker 4>That she does do the play.

1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:27.840
<v Speaker 2>There's like a sign with their names on it, so they,

1:22:28.880 --> 1:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, everyone is just so trapped because.

1:22:32.040 --> 1:22:34.400
<v Speaker 3>She says like, normally I would say screw your play,

1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:36.879
<v Speaker 3>but because I'm a professional, I'm gonna do it anyway,

1:22:37.040 --> 1:22:39.360
<v Speaker 3>so I'll see you it rehearsal or whatever.

1:22:39.560 --> 1:22:42.080
<v Speaker 2>And then she says, I do I do like this

1:22:42.120 --> 1:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>is just like I love Terry Garr. But like when

1:22:44.280 --> 1:22:46.160
<v Speaker 2>she when she does that whole speech and then she goes,

1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:47.959
<v Speaker 2>are these chocolate covered cherries?

1:22:48.040 --> 1:22:49.639
<v Speaker 4>I laughed. I like it.

1:22:50.800 --> 1:22:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Also, there's a part where he so Michael is talking

1:22:55.080 --> 1:22:59.240
<v Speaker 3>about Sandy to his roommate Jeff, and he's saying something like, well,

1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:01.960
<v Speaker 3>I never promised her that I would be exclusive, but

1:23:02.720 --> 1:23:04.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm kind of letting her think that so as to

1:23:04.880 --> 1:23:08.920
<v Speaker 3>not hurt her feelings. So he says that. Then in

1:23:08.960 --> 1:23:12.639
<v Speaker 3>a later scene, Michael as Dorothy is talking to Ron,

1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:17.639
<v Speaker 3>Ron regurgitates that exact same thing about Julie, where Ron

1:23:17.760 --> 1:23:20.400
<v Speaker 3>is like, well, I never promised I would be exclusive

1:23:20.439 --> 1:23:22.800
<v Speaker 3>to her, but I'm telling her that I'm exclusive, so

1:23:23.120 --> 1:23:25.720
<v Speaker 3>is to not hurt her feelings. And I would think

1:23:25.760 --> 1:23:28.000
<v Speaker 3>that would be a moment of Michael being like, oh

1:23:28.000 --> 1:23:30.840
<v Speaker 3>my god, that's so shitty and I did that same

1:23:30.880 --> 1:23:31.479
<v Speaker 3>shitty thing.

1:23:31.520 --> 1:23:32.799
<v Speaker 2>And he just keeps packing.

1:23:32.920 --> 1:23:40.519
<v Speaker 3>He has no reflection, no introspection whatsoever. He's just like, well,

1:23:40.560 --> 1:23:43.439
<v Speaker 3>you suck Ron, You're a shitty guy. And it's like,

1:23:43.600 --> 1:23:44.960
<v Speaker 3>you're also shitty.

1:23:45.560 --> 1:23:45.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:23:46.040 --> 1:23:49.720
<v Speaker 6>The only change that we see, the only progress that

1:23:49.760 --> 1:23:54.600
<v Speaker 6>we see, is that Michael just starts liking dresses like

1:23:54.680 --> 1:23:56.600
<v Speaker 6>more like he just starts to have more of appreciation

1:23:56.680 --> 1:24:00.920
<v Speaker 6>for the craftsmanship of like like like like by the end,

1:24:00.960 --> 1:24:04.200
<v Speaker 6>he's like, this is a Houston and like I love Houston.

1:24:04.280 --> 1:24:06.720
<v Speaker 6>And it's like, oh so like literally the only thing

1:24:06.760 --> 1:24:09.439
<v Speaker 6>that you've changed is you like like designer clothing. I

1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:12.120
<v Speaker 6>don't like Like it was so bad and superficial.

1:24:12.360 --> 1:24:17.800
<v Speaker 3>There were so many opportunities for him to learn the many,

1:24:17.880 --> 1:24:23.479
<v Speaker 3>many ways that women are oppressed and marginalized simply because

1:24:23.479 --> 1:24:26.760
<v Speaker 3>of their gender, and he learns basically nothing, except for

1:24:27.040 --> 1:24:31.080
<v Speaker 3>he says something like it's so expensive to buy all

1:24:31.120 --> 1:24:34.080
<v Speaker 3>these clothes and lingerie.

1:24:33.479 --> 1:24:36.840
<v Speaker 2>And handbags that it does remind me of a date

1:24:36.960 --> 1:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>I went on years ago where it was like a

1:24:40.040 --> 1:24:45.160
<v Speaker 2>guy emphatically explaining to me how expensive skincare products were

1:24:45.240 --> 1:24:48.000
<v Speaker 2>for women, for like Mony, and then at the end

1:24:48.040 --> 1:24:52.840
<v Speaker 2>being like kiss please, like I didn't, and you're just

1:24:52.880 --> 1:24:57.400
<v Speaker 2>like okay, Like I don't know. I there's just so

1:24:57.479 --> 1:25:00.240
<v Speaker 2>much going on in this movie that makes me very

1:25:00.400 --> 1:25:05.559
<v Speaker 2>sad for all marginalized people of the nineteen eighties. It's

1:25:05.640 --> 1:25:08.240
<v Speaker 2>so and I feel like this is something I know

1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:11.000
<v Speaker 2>we're running out of time, but something that feels actually

1:25:11.160 --> 1:25:14.360
<v Speaker 2>very in conversation with not the Bechdel Test, but like

1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Alison Bechdel's work, which was you know, happening throughout the eighties,

1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:22.479
<v Speaker 2>the idea of like for many people. And I saw

1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:25.280
<v Speaker 2>this in the comments I saw this on letterbox, mostly

1:25:25.320 --> 1:25:29.840
<v Speaker 2>from older users, saying that this was the closest they

1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:34.080
<v Speaker 2>saw in a very successful movie to lesbian representation and

1:25:34.240 --> 1:25:39.360
<v Speaker 2>how depressing is that. Like God, There's been a lot

1:25:39.360 --> 1:25:43.080
<v Speaker 2>of pieces written about this over the years. One I'm

1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:46.360
<v Speaker 2>gonna quote from is from a blog called diva Drivel

1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:49.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of a good thing, kind of a good name

1:25:49.680 --> 1:25:53.800
<v Speaker 2>called looking for the Lesbian in TUTSI. I just wanted

1:25:53.800 --> 1:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>to to share this perspective because I actually I like

1:25:56.320 --> 1:26:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I do. I do see the appeal of Julia's character,

1:26:00.160 --> 1:26:02.439
<v Speaker 2>even though it resolves in the most republican way possible.

1:26:03.479 --> 1:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>So from this piece, in spite of the baggage that

1:26:06.000 --> 1:26:08.240
<v Speaker 2>comes with a film that presents dated ideas about gender

1:26:08.240 --> 1:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>and sexuality, I still find myself drawn to Tutsy because

1:26:10.800 --> 1:26:15.320
<v Speaker 2>of the unresolved ambiguity of Julia's sexuality. Julia's blonde, beautiful,

1:26:15.400 --> 1:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>moderately famous, and already entangled in a front relationship, blah

1:26:19.000 --> 1:26:24.360
<v Speaker 2>blah blah. Despite Julie's aversion towards seeing Dorothy out of

1:26:24.400 --> 1:26:28.120
<v Speaker 2>her clothes, as Michael pleads, she confesses to having quote

1:26:28.240 --> 1:26:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the same impulses unquote as Dorothy. In a curious statement,

1:26:32.280 --> 1:26:35.280
<v Speaker 2>she tells Dorothy that she is responsible for the encounter

1:26:35.400 --> 1:26:39.120
<v Speaker 2>because she is just not well adjusted enough, which is

1:26:39.200 --> 1:26:41.920
<v Speaker 2>such a specific choice of words.

1:26:41.920 --> 1:26:47.160
<v Speaker 4>There, it continues, what does Julie mean by this well adjusted?

1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:50.679
<v Speaker 6>To what I just got to say? I just want

1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:53.320
<v Speaker 6>to say that TUTSI walked so that Carol could run.

1:26:54.200 --> 1:27:03.839
<v Speaker 2>Okay, they're in conversation, Oh yeah.

1:27:02.200 --> 1:27:02.639
<v Speaker 4>But yeah.

1:27:03.040 --> 1:27:05.679
<v Speaker 2>Implicit in her statement is that lesbians are not well

1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:08.680
<v Speaker 2>adjusted women because they indulge these impulses.

1:27:09.000 --> 1:27:10.400
<v Speaker 4>While well adjusted.

1:27:10.000 --> 1:27:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Women learn to bottle them up and put them away,

1:27:12.800 --> 1:27:16.920
<v Speaker 2>which is like, I, honestly, I have no idea what

1:27:16.920 --> 1:27:19.280
<v Speaker 2>we're supposed to think about Julie. By the end of

1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:23.120
<v Speaker 2>this movie, it seems like Julie herself is very unresolved

1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:26.920
<v Speaker 2>about what this whole experience has meant to her, and

1:27:26.960 --> 1:27:29.360
<v Speaker 2>the movie kind of doesn't care enough to give us

1:27:29.400 --> 1:27:32.000
<v Speaker 2>any sort of meaningful resolution. I think we are just

1:27:32.000 --> 1:27:35.120
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be like, well, now she has to date

1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Dustin Hoffman, like that sounds miserable.

1:27:39.560 --> 1:27:42.200
<v Speaker 3>She threw a drink in his face. Cloes. There's a scene,

1:27:42.320 --> 1:27:46.400
<v Speaker 3>Oh Yeah, where Dorothy and Julie are hanging out and

1:27:46.479 --> 1:27:50.599
<v Speaker 3>Julie is talking about her relationships with men and ron

1:27:50.920 --> 1:27:54.439
<v Speaker 3>and just dating in general and how complicated it is

1:27:54.479 --> 1:27:56.920
<v Speaker 3>to be a woman in the eighties, and she says

1:27:56.920 --> 1:27:59.439
<v Speaker 3>something like I wish a guy would just be honest

1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:02.360
<v Speaker 3>enough to walk up to me and say, listen, I'm

1:28:02.400 --> 1:28:05.200
<v Speaker 3>confused about this too. I could lay a big line

1:28:05.200 --> 1:28:07.680
<v Speaker 3>on you, but the simple truth is I find you

1:28:07.800 --> 1:28:10.800
<v Speaker 3>really interesting and I'd really like to make love to you.

1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:16.120
<v Speaker 3>So later, when Michael, who is again at a party

1:28:16.160 --> 1:28:20.800
<v Speaker 3>on a date with Sandy, blows Sandy Off goes up

1:28:20.840 --> 1:28:25.080
<v Speaker 3>to Julie says that exact same line, and of course

1:28:25.840 --> 1:28:28.040
<v Speaker 3>Julie throws a drink in his face because that is

1:28:28.080 --> 1:28:30.599
<v Speaker 3>a that is a nutso thing to say to someone.

1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:33.639
<v Speaker 3>He's coming on so strong, and then he's like.

1:28:33.960 --> 1:28:34.519
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah.

1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:37.160
<v Speaker 3>But it also kind of makes Julie seem like she

1:28:37.280 --> 1:28:39.519
<v Speaker 3>doesn't know what she wants because she just said she

1:28:39.600 --> 1:28:40.200
<v Speaker 3>wanted that thing.

1:28:40.240 --> 1:28:43.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Julie does know what she wants, And.

1:28:43.560 --> 1:28:46.320
<v Speaker 6>The underlying message is that women are liars. I think

1:28:46.400 --> 1:28:50.439
<v Speaker 6>like there was a very male, very misogynistic message there

1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:53.639
<v Speaker 6>that I was hearing around, like women say they want

1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:59.280
<v Speaker 6>nice guys, but then when nice guys like I heard

1:28:59.320 --> 1:29:02.640
<v Speaker 6>that like gross manosphere kind of language.

1:29:02.280 --> 1:29:06.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, totally yeah, Michael is manosphere code.

1:29:06.840 --> 1:29:07.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:29:08.080 --> 1:29:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Like it is presented like Julie doesn't know what she wants,

1:29:12.640 --> 1:29:15.320
<v Speaker 2>but the movie doesn't care about that. Like I would

1:29:15.360 --> 1:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>be willing to engage with a character who's like unsure

1:29:18.520 --> 1:29:21.360
<v Speaker 2>about like what do I want out of a relationship,

1:29:21.680 --> 1:29:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Like what is my sexuality order, my preferences, bah blah

1:29:24.960 --> 1:29:28.200
<v Speaker 2>blah blah, but like the movie doesn't care. So it's

1:29:28.240 --> 1:29:30.439
<v Speaker 2>just like you're presented with all of this stuff. It's

1:29:30.520 --> 1:29:35.680
<v Speaker 2>also kind of like weirdly like Dorothy's doing some like

1:29:36.520 --> 1:29:40.840
<v Speaker 2>mommy stuff on the trip, and like in a way

1:29:40.880 --> 1:29:44.040
<v Speaker 2>that felt so manipulative, where she's like talking about her

1:29:44.080 --> 1:29:48.280
<v Speaker 2>dead mother, and then it felt like Michael as Dorothy

1:29:48.400 --> 1:29:50.439
<v Speaker 2>was like I'm your mommy now.

1:29:50.520 --> 1:29:52.600
<v Speaker 4>It was just really confusing.

1:29:53.120 --> 1:29:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, because they get into bed together, and then yeah,

1:29:56.280 --> 1:29:58.799
<v Speaker 3>Deutsch's I mean, I love sharing the bed with a friend.

1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Uh, and I hate movies that discouraged me from doing

1:30:02.000 --> 1:30:03.920
<v Speaker 2>that is fair.

1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:08.080
<v Speaker 3>I cannot share a bed with anyone under any circumstances.

1:30:08.200 --> 1:30:10.400
<v Speaker 3>I would rather sleep on the floor. We've shared a bed,

1:30:10.720 --> 1:30:13.160
<v Speaker 3>I know, but I'm so bad because I'm the worst sleeper.

1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Hated Settle. Seattle, you hated that.

1:30:21.720 --> 1:30:26.879
<v Speaker 3>We've shared multiple beds together. I think also in Washington,

1:30:26.960 --> 1:30:27.200
<v Speaker 3>d C.

1:30:27.560 --> 1:30:29.639
<v Speaker 4>Do you know I Seattle stuck out with me. See

1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:30.960
<v Speaker 4>you remember where we were?

1:30:31.160 --> 1:30:33.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. It meant to let me tell you something.

1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:36.400
<v Speaker 3>I have such bad insomnia that if someone is in

1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:39.760
<v Speaker 3>the bed with me, unless I have taken a Shmorgus

1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:44.760
<v Speaker 3>board of sleep Betime drugs, I will not sleep. I

1:30:44.840 --> 1:30:48.439
<v Speaker 3>have laid awake until seven am because a man was

1:30:48.479 --> 1:30:49.679
<v Speaker 3>next to me in a bed.

1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:50.559
<v Speaker 4>I hate to hear that.

1:30:50.600 --> 1:30:53.559
<v Speaker 3>And this has happened on multiple occasions in my life. Anyway,

1:30:54.280 --> 1:31:00.360
<v Speaker 3>they share the bed, Dorothy starts like petting Julie. She's like, no,

1:31:00.520 --> 1:31:03.920
<v Speaker 3>don't stop. My mom used to do this, and I'm like,

1:31:03.960 --> 1:31:06.400
<v Speaker 3>that could be a nice moment in a different movie,

1:31:06.479 --> 1:31:09.400
<v Speaker 3>but it's in this movie and it's weird. And then

1:31:09.800 --> 1:31:14.080
<v Speaker 3>this all culminates in Dorothy trying to kiss Julie, Julie

1:31:14.160 --> 1:31:16.799
<v Speaker 3>pulling away that you know, the scene we've been talking about.

1:31:16.840 --> 1:31:20.720
<v Speaker 3>And then the aftermath of that is Julie being like,

1:31:21.160 --> 1:31:26.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm too homophobic to be your friend anymore basically.

1:31:25.840 --> 1:31:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Which is kind of couched in the like, it's not

1:31:28.840 --> 1:31:31.080
<v Speaker 2>that I'm homophobic, it's that I need you to out

1:31:31.120 --> 1:31:33.840
<v Speaker 2>yourself to my dad today.

1:31:33.960 --> 1:31:37.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I feel like I'd be leading you on

1:31:37.439 --> 1:31:40.360
<v Speaker 3>because the mentality of the time was that here people

1:31:40.400 --> 1:31:43.880
<v Speaker 3>were so sexually aggressive that you can't even be friends

1:31:43.880 --> 1:31:44.280
<v Speaker 3>with them.

1:31:44.680 --> 1:31:47.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I have to confess something. We have limited time left.

1:31:47.880 --> 1:31:51.120
<v Speaker 6>I have to confess something. Tell us I was sexually

1:31:51.120 --> 1:31:55.519
<v Speaker 6>attracted to her dad. Oh less, I don't.

1:31:55.320 --> 1:32:02.280
<v Speaker 7>Know, but I did get he was so sweet, he

1:32:02.360 --> 1:32:05.760
<v Speaker 7>was so sweet, and his wife died and he's a widower,

1:32:05.920 --> 1:32:09.080
<v Speaker 7>and he just like was like so nice to Dorothy

1:32:09.240 --> 1:32:11.960
<v Speaker 7>and like he just wanted like to be happy and

1:32:12.080 --> 1:32:15.439
<v Speaker 7>like live like a joyful small life and that Really,

1:32:15.840 --> 1:32:19.080
<v Speaker 7>if I was Dorothy, I could not have resisted and

1:32:19.080 --> 1:32:20.520
<v Speaker 7>I would have gone with Less.

1:32:20.880 --> 1:32:23.880
<v Speaker 4>Wow, he should have been so lucky.

1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:27.160
<v Speaker 6>He was just like he was solid. He was the

1:32:27.200 --> 1:32:30.320
<v Speaker 6>only man in that film that was a solid man.

1:32:30.760 --> 1:32:31.840
<v Speaker 3>But I hate him.

1:32:32.760 --> 1:32:35.479
<v Speaker 6>Well, did he do something bad? Am I forgetting that

1:32:35.520 --> 1:32:36.439
<v Speaker 6>he did something bad?

1:32:37.000 --> 1:32:40.880
<v Speaker 2>His last I think his last appearance is like sucks.

1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:42.519
<v Speaker 6>Oh yeah, because.

1:32:42.280 --> 1:32:44.920
<v Speaker 3>He's weird and homophobic. But then even before that he

1:32:44.960 --> 1:32:48.600
<v Speaker 3>goes on this tirade about how gender.

1:32:48.320 --> 1:32:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Needs to be this rigid, happy thing.

1:32:51.840 --> 1:32:55.000
<v Speaker 3>I couldn't say. He's also like he keeps being creepily

1:32:55.400 --> 1:33:00.719
<v Speaker 3>like touching Dorothy and invading her space and thing crossing

1:33:00.720 --> 1:33:01.400
<v Speaker 3>her boundaries.

1:33:01.479 --> 1:33:04.679
<v Speaker 6>In real life, Less would end up with a trans woman.

1:33:05.240 --> 1:33:08.720
<v Speaker 6>In real life, Less just trans attracted. He finds out

1:33:08.800 --> 1:33:12.280
<v Speaker 6>later in life he finds a woman who's trans, and

1:33:12.320 --> 1:33:15.640
<v Speaker 6>he lives a beautiful, happy life on the farm with

1:33:15.760 --> 1:33:19.559
<v Speaker 6>his trans lover. Like that is that's real life, that's

1:33:19.680 --> 1:33:22.599
<v Speaker 6>real life. In the movie, it's really weird, and there's

1:33:22.600 --> 1:33:25.479
<v Speaker 6>a lot of weird stuff going on. But in real life,

1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:29.040
<v Speaker 6>Less he has a beautiful trans wife. That's just that's

1:33:29.120 --> 1:33:30.080
<v Speaker 6>that's that's life.

1:33:30.200 --> 1:33:31.040
<v Speaker 4>That's beautiful.

1:33:31.400 --> 1:33:32.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm here for it.

1:33:32.479 --> 1:33:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's maybe that's how it ends in everything else

1:33:36.720 --> 1:33:40.799
<v Speaker 2>is exactly the same, except Less has a beautiful trans wife.

1:33:41.120 --> 1:33:44.200
<v Speaker 4>At the end of them, like, he takes he takes

1:33:44.200 --> 1:33:44.799
<v Speaker 4>your dancing.

1:33:44.880 --> 1:33:46.080
<v Speaker 6>He just wants to dance.

1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:48.960
<v Speaker 4>We're I like.

1:33:49.000 --> 1:33:51.760
<v Speaker 2>The way he's presented is very sweet at first, and

1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:53.920
<v Speaker 2>then the layers start to peel back.

1:33:54.200 --> 1:33:55.800
<v Speaker 5>They do peel, they do peel.

1:33:56.880 --> 1:34:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay and Julie, Julie, this family, Like, I don't know

1:34:01.760 --> 1:34:03.280
<v Speaker 2>what the hell was going on with this family.

1:34:03.760 --> 1:34:04.400
<v Speaker 3>It's a mess.

1:34:04.479 --> 1:34:07.040
<v Speaker 6>There was sexual tension between them, Yes, I.

1:34:07.040 --> 1:34:10.639
<v Speaker 2>Was gonna say there was a very like the way

1:34:10.720 --> 1:34:13.800
<v Speaker 2>she I also just think it's whatever. I you know,

1:34:14.360 --> 1:34:17.880
<v Speaker 2>I want I want my mom to have a nice boyfriend.

1:34:18.400 --> 1:34:21.439
<v Speaker 2>Sure of course I do, why not? But I wouldn't

1:34:21.680 --> 1:34:25.200
<v Speaker 2>be like, I'll leave you two alone, good luck, Like

1:34:25.280 --> 1:34:29.160
<v Speaker 2>you're like, oh gross, gross, Like I want her to

1:34:29.479 --> 1:34:33.320
<v Speaker 2>have a great relationship that has nothing to do with me,

1:34:33.960 --> 1:34:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Like what gross? Like, Yeah, people love to hyper sexualize

1:34:39.200 --> 1:34:41.439
<v Speaker 2>the relationship between fathers and daughters.

1:34:41.479 --> 1:34:42.400
<v Speaker 4>It's their favorite.

1:34:42.800 --> 1:34:45.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh god, wasn't that a thing? Weren't we talking about

1:34:45.760 --> 1:34:48.360
<v Speaker 3>that in like Say Anything or something?

1:34:48.400 --> 1:34:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I Say Anything is one of the horniest father to

1:34:51.439 --> 1:34:54.559
<v Speaker 2>outer relationships ever because he gives her like a ring

1:34:54.760 --> 1:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of the movie.

1:34:56.120 --> 1:34:58.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he proposes to his own daughter or something.

1:34:58.800 --> 1:34:59.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:34:59.360 --> 1:34:59.839
<v Speaker 5>Gross.

1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:01.720
<v Speaker 3>I know we're running out of time. I just have

1:35:01.760 --> 1:35:05.320
<v Speaker 3>a few quick things I want to rattle off. First

1:35:05.360 --> 1:35:08.040
<v Speaker 3>of all, I think this movie suffers from too many subplots.

1:35:08.320 --> 1:35:12.639
<v Speaker 3>There are like seven, and it should have been maybe three, tops.

1:35:12.880 --> 1:35:16.400
<v Speaker 3>But the subplots that we haven't really talked about are

1:35:17.360 --> 1:35:20.760
<v Speaker 3>the quick thing with the actor John Van Horn, who

1:35:20.800 --> 1:35:25.240
<v Speaker 3>plays doctor Brewster. He attempts to rape Dorothy.

1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:28.560
<v Speaker 2>And that's written off with what is definitely intended to

1:35:28.600 --> 1:35:30.439
<v Speaker 2>be a joke. Sally Jane Black talks about this at

1:35:30.479 --> 1:35:34.040
<v Speaker 2>her review as well, where Michael says rape is no

1:35:34.479 --> 1:35:38.240
<v Speaker 2>laughing matter, and then there's like a literal pause for laughs.

1:35:38.240 --> 1:35:41.840
<v Speaker 2>For the nineteen eighty two audience that's like, sure it is.

1:35:41.960 --> 1:35:43.320
<v Speaker 2>It's the funniest thing in the world.

1:35:45.080 --> 1:35:49.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So that's a mess. There's a tiny, tiny little

1:35:49.560 --> 1:35:52.240
<v Speaker 3>Geena Davis subplot where it's I guess it's more of

1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:54.479
<v Speaker 3>a through line than anything, but the whole thing there

1:35:54.560 --> 1:35:58.400
<v Speaker 3>is that she keeps being almost naked in front of Dorothy,

1:35:58.560 --> 1:36:02.720
<v Speaker 3>not realizing that Dorothy actually Michael, and so she's like

1:36:02.760 --> 1:36:04.760
<v Speaker 3>in her bra and underwear all the time, and then

1:36:04.800 --> 1:36:10.240
<v Speaker 3>when she realizes that Dorothy is a man, her eyes

1:36:10.400 --> 1:36:13.160
<v Speaker 3>bulge and she's like, oh no, I've been naked in

1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:15.439
<v Speaker 3>front of him the whole time, And that's played as

1:36:15.439 --> 1:36:20.960
<v Speaker 3>a joke. There's a few instances where Sandy makes fat

1:36:21.000 --> 1:36:25.120
<v Speaker 3>phobic remarks, always about Dorothy, but she never knows that

1:36:25.160 --> 1:36:26.519
<v Speaker 3>she's talking about Dorothy.

1:36:27.120 --> 1:36:30.160
<v Speaker 4>And also Dorothy not for nothing, Dorothy isn't.

1:36:30.320 --> 1:36:33.080
<v Speaker 6>Fast skinny as hell, Yeah, because it's.

1:36:32.960 --> 1:36:35.479
<v Speaker 3>Dustin Hoffman and Dustin Hoffman is very thin.

1:36:36.040 --> 1:36:36.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:36:36.320 --> 1:36:40.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's just again the like absolute, like crippling

1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:43.320
<v Speaker 2>depression of the nineteen eighties where we're just like.

1:36:43.720 --> 1:36:45.160
<v Speaker 4>What are you even saying?

1:36:45.600 --> 1:36:49.200
<v Speaker 3>It's it's mind boggling. Yeah, there's just there. I know,

1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:53.840
<v Speaker 3>we're we're there's more to say, but yeah, we're we're

1:36:53.920 --> 1:36:57.519
<v Speaker 3>running out of time. So I'm like, ahh, but I've

1:36:57.560 --> 1:36:58.799
<v Speaker 3>had a great time here today.

1:36:58.920 --> 1:37:03.080
<v Speaker 4>I have me too. Does this maybe pass the Bechdel test?

1:37:03.600 --> 1:37:08.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, Like, no, it doesn't unless someone were

1:37:08.160 --> 1:37:11.840
<v Speaker 3>to count Dorothy as a female character. But no, no.

1:37:11.720 --> 1:37:15.120
<v Speaker 6>Way, because like without that, like there was no scene

1:37:15.160 --> 1:37:18.920
<v Speaker 6>where two women were talking, right, I can't remember one.

1:37:19.160 --> 1:37:19.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't think so.

1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And if it did happen, it was a coincidence at best. Yeah,

1:37:23.600 --> 1:37:26.320
<v Speaker 2>like all of that, Like all of Sandy's friends are men,

1:37:26.520 --> 1:37:30.360
<v Speaker 2>which as an actor doesn't really make sense. It doesn't

1:37:30.400 --> 1:37:33.160
<v Speaker 2>seem like Julie, in spite of being a sweet person,

1:37:33.320 --> 1:37:35.519
<v Speaker 2>is friends with any of the other women on set.

1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:39.519
<v Speaker 2>It just like, is yet another example of every woman

1:37:39.560 --> 1:37:42.680
<v Speaker 2>in the story being just like narratively, Like there's these

1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>little narrative baby gits around them so that they can

1:37:45.640 --> 1:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>never speak to another woman. And yeah, I don't think

1:37:50.800 --> 1:37:53.800
<v Speaker 2>it passes the Bechdel test literally or spiritually.

1:37:54.520 --> 1:37:57.479
<v Speaker 3>No. But what about our nipple scale, the scale where

1:37:57.520 --> 1:37:59.680
<v Speaker 3>we rate the movie on a scale of zero to

1:37:59.720 --> 1:38:04.880
<v Speaker 3>five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1:38:05.960 --> 1:38:09.719
<v Speaker 3>This is tricky again. For the time, this was probably

1:38:09.760 --> 1:38:15.759
<v Speaker 3>a feminist masterpiece in nineteen eighty two, Sasha butmer bleak

1:38:15.800 --> 1:38:20.759
<v Speaker 3>as hell, But obviously looking at it in twenty twenty six,

1:38:21.280 --> 1:38:25.960
<v Speaker 3>everything that it is maybe trying to do falls absolutely short.

1:38:27.040 --> 1:38:30.559
<v Speaker 3>There are so many issues with all of the text,

1:38:30.680 --> 1:38:35.320
<v Speaker 3>all of the subtext, everything about it just is kind

1:38:35.360 --> 1:38:39.920
<v Speaker 3>of rotten to me. So I think I I'll give

1:38:39.920 --> 1:38:46.040
<v Speaker 3>it a half nipple for its legacy of being a

1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:50.640
<v Speaker 3>quote unquote feminist work for its time and paving the

1:38:50.840 --> 1:38:57.160
<v Speaker 3>way for other better stories that explore similar themes about

1:38:57.280 --> 1:39:01.479
<v Speaker 3>gender and misogyny and things like that. But again, by

1:39:01.520 --> 1:39:05.439
<v Speaker 3>today's standards, it is not really doing anything. So half

1:39:05.520 --> 1:39:08.160
<v Speaker 3>nipple and I'll give it to Terry Garr.

1:39:09.360 --> 1:39:12.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm gonna go half nipple too. If this is

1:39:12.479 --> 1:39:15.800
<v Speaker 2>like a movie that you loved, a nostalgic premises, like.

1:39:16.320 --> 1:39:18.640
<v Speaker 4>Revisit it. I think it's it is.

1:39:18.760 --> 1:39:22.840
<v Speaker 2>This probably was considered very like different and it it

1:39:23.080 --> 1:39:25.639
<v Speaker 2>I just have only really ever seen in the broadest

1:39:25.680 --> 1:39:28.520
<v Speaker 2>possible way this movie presented as a tale of empathy,

1:39:28.840 --> 1:39:30.439
<v Speaker 2>and I think if you go back and watch it,

1:39:31.640 --> 1:39:34.000
<v Speaker 2>the empathy just isn't there.

1:39:33.640 --> 1:39:35.200
<v Speaker 4>Where Where is it? Where is it?

1:39:35.280 --> 1:39:38.160
<v Speaker 2>At is the empathy in the room with us right now?

1:39:38.760 --> 1:39:43.240
<v Speaker 2>It is just a Reagan relic that, like you said, Kaylin,

1:39:43.280 --> 1:39:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and I think you know, if you got something out

1:39:45.840 --> 1:39:49.280
<v Speaker 2>of this movie and it led you to actual empathetic work,

1:39:49.360 --> 1:39:53.360
<v Speaker 2>then great. But yeah, for for our purposes, it does

1:39:53.400 --> 1:39:54.120
<v Speaker 2>not do well.

1:39:54.760 --> 1:39:58.800
<v Speaker 4>Half a nipple. Also going to Terry Garr, what about you, Nori?

1:39:59.400 --> 1:40:03.280
<v Speaker 6>Yes, I okay, So I'm gonna give a quarter nipple

1:40:03.439 --> 1:40:06.880
<v Speaker 6>for nostalgia like I really did, like you know, the

1:40:06.920 --> 1:40:11.160
<v Speaker 6>grainy camera that I was really loving, the style, the

1:40:11.200 --> 1:40:14.600
<v Speaker 6>colors that I was really into that nostalgia element. So

1:40:14.680 --> 1:40:18.799
<v Speaker 6>a quarter nipple for that alone, you know what. Another

1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:23.559
<v Speaker 6>quarter nipple for the love of my life less, So

1:40:23.880 --> 1:40:27.120
<v Speaker 6>half a nipple, okay. In terms of trans nipples, I'm

1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:31.880
<v Speaker 6>gonna do negative ten. It was so painful to hear

1:40:31.960 --> 1:40:36.479
<v Speaker 6>some of that dialogue. It was so transphobic and really hurt.

1:40:37.240 --> 1:40:41.400
<v Speaker 6>And also Dorothy was brick as hell, and no one's

1:40:41.439 --> 1:40:47.200
<v Speaker 6>believing that that's a woman. Okay, so negative ten. I'm

1:40:47.200 --> 1:40:50.519
<v Speaker 6>gonna give my half a nipple to my boy Less.

1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:55.120
<v Speaker 6>You know, before the the onion peels, you know, before

1:40:55.160 --> 1:40:57.479
<v Speaker 6>the layers were shown, he seemed like a nice guy.

1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:01.799
<v Speaker 6>But unfortunately we did see who he was, so that sucks.

1:41:01.880 --> 1:41:05.479
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, but in the reboot, he will be on

1:41:05.520 --> 1:41:08.640
<v Speaker 2>the farm with his gorgeous trans wife Yes.

1:41:08.640 --> 1:41:12.479
<v Speaker 6>Played by Sasha Colby from Groupos Drag Race.

1:41:13.520 --> 1:41:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

1:41:14.080 --> 1:41:18.439
<v Speaker 3>Yes, well, Nori, thank you so much for joining us.

1:41:18.600 --> 1:41:19.719
<v Speaker 6>Yes, oh my pleasure.

1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:23.960
<v Speaker 4>Thank you for enduring Tutsie. We're sorry.

1:41:24.120 --> 1:41:26.240
<v Speaker 6>I'm going to need some therapy. I'm going to need

1:41:26.280 --> 1:41:28.680
<v Speaker 6>to do some therapy after this. No, this was a

1:41:28.800 --> 1:41:30.200
<v Speaker 6>delight to talk to you, guys.

1:41:30.280 --> 1:41:30.640
<v Speaker 5>Thank you.

1:41:31.000 --> 1:41:34.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh. Where can people follow you on social media?

1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:35.920
<v Speaker 3>Find your work, et cetera.

1:41:36.520 --> 1:41:40.879
<v Speaker 6>I'm on Instagram. It's just nor read find me there.

1:41:41.520 --> 1:41:43.800
<v Speaker 6>I'll post about shows I'm doing. I'm always performing in

1:41:43.840 --> 1:41:46.880
<v Speaker 6>the LA area, So yeah, check me out.

1:41:47.040 --> 1:41:48.200
<v Speaker 4>Hell yeah.

1:41:48.240 --> 1:41:51.559
<v Speaker 3>And you can follow us on Instagram and our Patreon

1:41:51.640 --> 1:41:54.479
<v Speaker 3>aka Matreon, where for five dollars a month to get

1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:57.200
<v Speaker 3>two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the

1:41:57.280 --> 1:42:01.120
<v Speaker 3>back catalog, always on a fun little theme that Jamie

1:42:01.160 --> 1:42:04.439
<v Speaker 3>and I cook up. And that's at patreon dot com

1:42:04.439 --> 1:42:05.839
<v Speaker 3>slash Bechdel Cast.

1:42:06.479 --> 1:42:12.799
<v Speaker 2>And with that, let's we could we could fix Less,

1:42:13.000 --> 1:42:15.439
<v Speaker 2>We could fix Less. Yeah, let's go to his farm

1:42:15.479 --> 1:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>and fix him. Couldn't fix Michael, but maybe less, but maybe.

1:42:18.920 --> 1:42:23.599
<v Speaker 6>Less put less of address as less.

1:42:25.120 --> 1:42:26.680
<v Speaker 4>By Bye bye.

1:42:29.800 --> 1:42:33.120
<v Speaker 2>The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and

1:42:33.240 --> 1:42:35.519
<v Speaker 2>produced by Me Jamie Loftus and.

1:42:35.479 --> 1:42:40.280
<v Speaker 3>Me Kitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

1:42:40.080 --> 1:42:43.519
<v Speaker 2>And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's

1:42:43.560 --> 1:42:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Me and our logo and merch and all of our

1:42:47.000 --> 1:42:50.680
<v Speaker 2>artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, Ever heard

1:42:50.720 --> 1:42:50.920
<v Speaker 2>of her?

1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:52.160
<v Speaker 4>Oh My God?

1:42:52.439 --> 1:42:54.920
<v Speaker 2>And our theme song, by the way, was composed by

1:42:54.920 --> 1:42:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski. Iconic and a

1:42:59.320 --> 1:43:03.080
<v Speaker 2>special thing to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

1:43:03.600 --> 1:43:07.400
<v Speaker 3>For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash

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<v Speaker 3>Spectelcast