WEBVTT - Awe and Psychedelics with Michael Pollan 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.596 --> 0:00:36.156 I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:39.316 kind of explode in this cloud of blue post it notes, 0:00:39.636 --> 0:00:42.436 you know, like confetti, and they came down to the 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:44.996 ground and they kind of masked in this pool of 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:49.156 blue paint, and that was me. I had complete acceptance 0:00:49.396 --> 0:00:52.756 that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 0:00:52.836 --> 0:00:55.396 was what was meant to be. There was a continuing 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:59.596 consciousness of some kind. I know, it sounds crazy and 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:01.796 very hard to put into words. 0:01:02.756 --> 0:01:06.436 That's renowned author Michael Pollan. He's talking about how a 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:11.036 guided psychedelic trip on psilocybin molecule found in mushrooms helped 0:01:11.076 --> 0:01:14.036 him see his mortality through an entirely new lens. 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:17.716 This is a very non interventionist therapy. The therapists say 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:19.876 nothing during the experience except would you like a glass 0:01:19.916 --> 0:01:22.076 of water or a snack or need to go to 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:26.396 the bathroom. It really they let your mind go where 0:01:26.436 --> 0:01:28.916 your mind wants to go. It is a kind of 0:01:29.316 --> 0:01:31.236 self exploration, self healing. 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:37.516 On today's show, we hear from Michael Pollan about how 0:01:37.556 --> 0:01:41.636 plants have the power to change our minds. I'm Maya 0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:44.436 Shunker and this is a slight change of Plans a 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:46.876 show about who we are and who we become in 0:01:46.916 --> 0:02:02.236 the face of a big change. I'm fascinated by the 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:06.516 kinds of experiences that can drastically change our perspectives, and 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:09.596 guided psychedelic trips have the potential to do just that. 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:12.996 While psychedelics aren't legal in the US, they have been 0:02:13.116 --> 0:02:17.116 used in certain clinical trials and have delivered powerful therapeutic 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:21.356 benefits for people struggling with things like addiction, depression, and 0:02:21.436 --> 0:02:25.476 existential distress. So what's happening to our brains under their 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:29.956 influence that gives rise to these remarkable changes. Michael's written 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:32.996 two books that explore the answer to this question, How 0:02:32.996 --> 0:02:35.396 to Change Your Mind and This is Your Mind on Plants. 0:02:36.316 --> 0:02:39.276 And so today we dig into the science of psychedelics. 0:02:40.036 --> 0:02:43.476 We started off by discussing the somewhat astonishing fact that 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:47.476 basically every culture in the world has discovered psychoactive plants. 0:02:48.116 --> 0:02:51.836 They contain molecules that can alter human consciousness. We're talking 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:54.796 about the morphine and the opium poppy and the caffeine 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:57.676 in coffee and tea. Michael says there are a few 0:02:57.716 --> 0:03:02.116 explanations for why we're so drawn to these substances, for starters, 0:03:02.156 --> 0:03:04.676 they can provide pain, relief and stave off boredom. 0:03:05.436 --> 0:03:09.556 But then I think that there are more profound to 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:12.756 which people have put these psychoactive plants. And I'm talking 0:03:12.836 --> 0:03:15.676 here about the more powerful ones, the ones we call psychedelics, 0:03:17.276 --> 0:03:21.596 and that is for access to other realms, other dimensions 0:03:21.596 --> 0:03:26.956 of reality and afterworld and underworld, and religious visions essentially, 0:03:27.396 --> 0:03:30.196 you know, mystical experiences that are at the heart of 0:03:30.236 --> 0:03:33.436 a great many religions. And it may well be that 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:38.076 it was these psychedelic substances that opened up that way 0:03:38.076 --> 0:03:44.036 of thinking, that gave people the visions that were interpreted 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:47.396 in such a way as to underwrite whole religions. And 0:03:47.436 --> 0:03:50.396 we just think of the artists who were influenced by psychoactives, 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:56.316 you know, new metaphors, new insights, or scientific discoveries. I mean, 0:03:56.316 --> 0:04:00.276 there's a great many scientific discoveries that trace to psychedelic use. 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:02.996 I think of it as the natural history of imagination. 0:04:03.636 --> 0:04:05.436 But it sure is interesting. 0:04:05.076 --> 0:04:07.876 To think about it is, and I mean it is 0:04:07.956 --> 0:04:13.796 striking to me that it just appears like normal consciousness 0:04:14.116 --> 0:04:16.956 isn't enough for us humans, right, Like we're not sated 0:04:16.996 --> 0:04:20.956 by it. And look there's obviously a continuum, and I 0:04:21.076 --> 0:04:24.396 fall closer to the risk averse. I'm more of a 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:28.996 boring person who seems I feel totally fulfilled by my 0:04:29.116 --> 0:04:31.516 current realm of consciousness. I know lots of other people 0:04:31.556 --> 0:04:35.716 have a much more exploratory mindset, but it is striking 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:39.956 that across all cultures there is some itch for something 0:04:40.036 --> 0:04:44.036 beyond our everyday conscious experience. 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:46.436 And we seek transcendence. Of course, not just through drugs. 0:04:46.996 --> 0:04:50.436 Extreme sports and intense periods of physical activity can do 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:53.196 it releasing drugs in the brain, basically, I mean, we 0:04:53.236 --> 0:04:57.076 can drug ourselves in all sorts of ways. Fasting does it, dance, 0:04:57.236 --> 0:05:01.476 ecstatic dance, rhythm, you know, drumming. I think the desire 0:05:01.516 --> 0:05:05.196 for transcendence goes really deep, and it's interesting. I mean, 0:05:05.716 --> 0:05:10.596 do other creatures have it? We know that some other 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:14.116 animals do like to change consciousness from you know, their 0:05:14.676 --> 0:05:18.956 elephants love alcohol apparently, and apparently birds will you know, 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:22.276 favor cannabis seeds over all different kinds seems to addle 0:05:22.356 --> 0:05:26.796 them a little bit. But transcendence, that idea that you 0:05:26.836 --> 0:05:31.236 know that there is another, there is another realm of existence, 0:05:31.276 --> 0:05:34.236 another way to be, is something that I think is 0:05:34.276 --> 0:05:35.476 a deep human desire. 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:38.676 Yeah, I'm wondering, Michael, if you can give us a 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:42.596 quick history lesson, because in recent years there's been a 0:05:42.716 --> 0:05:46.556 huge resurgence of interest in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics 0:05:46.596 --> 0:05:52.356 for people with anxiety, depression, addiction, terminal illness. What's been 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:53.836 responsible for this shift? 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:57.116 Well, you know, one of the big surprises in researching 0:05:57.116 --> 0:06:01.116 psychedelics was discovering how much research had been done during 0:06:01.116 --> 0:06:04.476 this period from the late forties through the mid sixties 0:06:04.516 --> 0:06:08.156 and the fifties. It was, you know, a really vibrant 0:06:08.156 --> 0:06:12.596 field of research with some very promising results using LSD 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:16.156 and psilocybin to treat alcoholism, end of life anxiety, things 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:19.836 like that. It was completely respectable, and then the work 0:06:19.916 --> 0:06:23.276 stops in the late sixties early seventies, there is a 0:06:23.316 --> 0:06:27.716 tremendous backlash under President Nixon, and the culture kind of 0:06:27.716 --> 0:06:31.716 turns against them. There's a backlash and the media, which 0:06:31.716 --> 0:06:35.996 had been incredibly positive about psychedelics turns on a dime, 0:06:36.356 --> 0:06:39.556 and so the research stops. The way it gets restarted 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:43.356 is really a function of a couple things. One is, 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:47.636 you have a group of psychiatrists, therapists of other kinds 0:06:47.676 --> 0:06:50.556 who never lost faith in the fact that these were 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:53.556 powerful therapeutic agents, and in fact, some of them were 0:06:53.596 --> 0:06:57.436 working with them underground, and people in that world started 0:06:57.516 --> 0:07:01.036 kind of plotting the return of psychedelics. And then in 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:04.676 the early nineties they kind of got a signal from 0:07:04.676 --> 0:07:08.396 the FDA. There was a bureaucrat there in charge of 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:12.716 drug development, and he basically sends a signal to researchers that, look, 0:07:13.196 --> 0:07:16.156 we're going to just treat psychedelics like any other drug. 0:07:16.276 --> 0:07:18.396 If you've got a good experiment, if you've got a 0:07:18.436 --> 0:07:21.396 good indication, you think it's going to be useful for 0:07:21.836 --> 0:07:26.556 We're not going to discriminate against it. The key moment, 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:30.516 I think, though, comes when Bob Jesse, who is an 0:07:30.516 --> 0:07:34.236 interesting character. He's not a doctor or a therapist. He's 0:07:34.276 --> 0:07:39.076 a computer engineer at Oracle who had experiences with psychedelics 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:44.116 that had convinced him of their value. And he reaches 0:07:44.156 --> 0:07:47.076 out to a man named Roland Griffith, who is a 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:51.116 very well respected psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins, you know, the 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:54.876 leading medical institution in the country, and they cook up 0:07:54.876 --> 0:07:57.796 this study and it's not a clinical study, it's not 0:07:57.836 --> 0:08:00.516 a therapeutic study at all. It's an effort to see 0:08:00.556 --> 0:08:04.756 whether you could induce a mystical type experience in someone 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:08.156 with a high dose of psilocybin. Mystical type experience is 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:11.836 something that rolls and is personally very interested in. And 0:08:11.876 --> 0:08:15.076 they do this study that's published in two thousand and six, 0:08:15.796 --> 0:08:18.396 and it's the craziest study. I mean, the title is 0:08:18.396 --> 0:08:23.196 something like psilocybin can occasion mystical type experience and healthy 0:08:23.196 --> 0:08:26.156 normal people something like that. And for me to see 0:08:26.196 --> 0:08:30.156 these words mystical experience in the pages of a medical 0:08:30.236 --> 0:08:32.196 journal was just so mind blowing. 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:35.996 And what is the hallmark of a mystical experience? 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:39.636 Good question, I had no idea, But it involves a 0:08:39.676 --> 0:08:44.396 transcendence of space and time. Are euphoric feeling or feeling 0:08:44.476 --> 0:08:50.316 of intense well being, a dissolution of ego, followed by 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:53.396 a sense of merging with something larger than yourself. You 0:08:53.476 --> 0:08:56.716 feel connected to nature or other people, or the universe 0:08:56.756 --> 0:09:01.356 of the divinity. And they found that of the two 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:04.756 thirds of people who had this mystical experience, they reported 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:07.996 enduring changes in their sense of well being going out 0:09:08.116 --> 0:09:11.756 six weeks or eights or something. And in a follow 0:09:11.836 --> 0:09:17.516 up study, they found that aspects of their personality, specifically openness, 0:09:17.556 --> 0:09:21.956 the trait of openness increased, and that's quite striking because 0:09:21.996 --> 0:09:25.476 in general the personality doesn't change in adults. So this 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:30.796 study really is the foundation on which subsequent work has 0:09:30.876 --> 0:09:33.276 been done. And by looking at these results that there 0:09:33.316 --> 0:09:37.636 seemed to be an improvement and well being, the idea occurred, well, 0:09:38.716 --> 0:09:41.876 we should try this with cancer patients. We should try 0:09:41.916 --> 0:09:45.716 this with people who have what the psychiatrists call existential 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:49.916 distress over their diagnosis or the proximity of death. And 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:53.476 that became the first clinical trial that the people at 0:09:53.516 --> 0:09:55.636 Hopkins did, and it was duplicated at the same time 0:09:55.636 --> 0:09:56.236 at NYU. 0:09:57.276 --> 0:10:00.196 Yeah. You know, what's notable about some of these controlled 0:10:00.196 --> 0:10:04.076 studies is that participants report that their guided experiences on 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:08.356 psychedelics are totally singular in nature, right, that they count 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:12.636 among the top most meaningful experiences they've ever had. And 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:15.556 I'd love to dig into the neuroscience just a bit 0:10:15.636 --> 0:10:18.876 so we can understand what is giving rise to these 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:20.716 exceptional subjective states. 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:23.676 Well, the honest answer is, we don't really know. We 0:10:23.796 --> 0:10:27.916 have some really interesting hints, but there's a lot more 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:31.876 work to be done. A researcher in England named Robin 0:10:31.956 --> 0:10:36.636 Carhart Harris put people in an fMRI machine and injected 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:40.316 them with psilocybin in one trial and LSD in another, 0:10:41.076 --> 0:10:45.476 and he found something very interesting. Where he expected to 0:10:45.476 --> 0:10:50.716 see a kind of explosion of activity mirroring the extraordinary 0:10:50.956 --> 0:10:55.076 visual effects and emotional effects, he actually found the most 0:10:55.076 --> 0:10:58.756 notable thing was a quieting of activity in one particular network. 0:10:59.316 --> 0:11:01.436 And this network, which I had never heard of, is 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:06.196 the default mode network. The default mode network is the 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:08.396 part of your brain that's most active when you're not 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:11.676 doing anything. It's where your brain goes. It's the default 0:11:11.756 --> 0:11:14.796 and it was discovered when they were doing fMRI tasks 0:11:14.796 --> 0:11:16.876 of other kinds and they had to get the baseline. 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:20.036 So they tell people don't do anything, don't think about anything, 0:11:20.436 --> 0:11:22.356 or try not to think about anything, just lie there, 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:24.636 and it turns out their brains lit up and all 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:26.436 sorts of stuff went on, and a lot of it 0:11:26.516 --> 0:11:33.116 involved self reflection, worry, rumination, thinking about the future, thinking 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:36.396 about the past. The default mode network seems to be 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:40.756 involved with creating this projection or illusion that we have 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:43.956 as self. It's involved in time travel, the ability to 0:11:43.996 --> 0:11:46.276 think about the future, and the past, which, if you 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:48.876 think about it, you need if you're going to have 0:11:48.916 --> 0:11:51.356 a sense of self. Our sense of self is what's 0:11:51.396 --> 0:11:53.196 happened to us in the past and what we hope 0:11:53.236 --> 0:11:55.196 will happen in the future, or what we think might 0:11:55.236 --> 0:11:58.276 happen to us in the future. It's also involved in 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:01.956 something called theory of mind. That's the ability to imagine 0:12:02.076 --> 0:12:05.076 the thoughts of other people, to understand that other people 0:12:05.156 --> 0:12:08.676 have thoughts, have a subjectivity, have an interiority. That's a 0:12:08.676 --> 0:12:14.236 big deal. And it's involved in what's called the narrative self, 0:12:14.636 --> 0:12:18.836 the story we tell ourselves of who we are and 0:12:18.876 --> 0:12:21.316 how we take new events and kind of weave them 0:12:21.316 --> 0:12:25.196 into that narrative. So you know, to the extent the 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:27.636 self has an address in the brain. It appears to 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:32.116 be in this network. And this network gets very quiet 0:12:32.596 --> 0:12:37.956 under psychedelics and in the minds of very experienced meditators, 0:12:38.636 --> 0:12:43.196 and you know Robin, then you know correlated reports of 0:12:43.396 --> 0:12:49.356 ego dissolution, and people can describe that it's quite a 0:12:49.396 --> 0:12:53.316 wild experience. You observe your sense of self completely melting 0:12:53.716 --> 0:12:58.796 or crumbling. It once happened to me when people reported 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.996 that they had the most precipitous drops in activity in 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:04.556 the default mode network. So that's one of the findings 0:13:04.876 --> 0:13:08.916 really of psychedelic science already. That is significant, I think 0:13:08.956 --> 0:13:12.076 for our understanding of consciousness and the self. But it's 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:14.276 not the only theory of what's going on. There are 0:13:14.276 --> 0:13:17.116 people who aren't sold on the default mode. We're hoping 0:13:17.156 --> 0:13:20.876 to get some more precise answers to these questions. 0:13:21.676 --> 0:13:26.516 Yeah, I mean, in addition to some of the therapeutic effects, 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:31.276 it is so compelling that this basic research can help 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:35.236 us further understand what brain structures are associated with our 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:35.876 sense of self. 0:13:36.396 --> 0:13:42.356 Yeah, there's another area to investigate, too, is what psychedelics 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:46.876 might teach us about the consciousness of children. You may 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:48.356 know Alison Gopnik. 0:13:47.956 --> 0:13:50.436 Alison, Yes, I'm such a fan of hers. 0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:55.356 And she studies child consciousness and problem solving, and she's 0:13:55.436 --> 0:14:00.556 convinced that the psychedelic experience is as close as adults 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:03.236 get to the mind of the child and the way 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:05.596 of thinking and the kind of what she describes as 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:10.756 the lantern consciousness, as opposed to the consciousness of adults, 0:14:10.756 --> 0:14:14.236 which is very focused and linear. Children take in information 0:14:14.316 --> 0:14:16.956 from all different sides, which allows for a different kind 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:21.196 of creativity, and she thinks that there's a retrogression in 0:14:21.236 --> 0:14:25.316 psychedelic consciousness that closely resembles that of children. So that's 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:28.636 a whole other avenue of exploration. That's very exciting. 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:31.756 Yeah, I love her quote that babies and children are 0:14:31.796 --> 0:14:35.756 basically tripping all the time. Yes, what a lovely, colorful 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:36.356 way of saying it. 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:40.476 This was an insight she had when her granddaughter was born. 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:44.956 I love that. Yeah. You know you mentioned that you 0:14:45.876 --> 0:14:48.916 did have the experience of feeling your ego dissolved, and 0:14:48.996 --> 0:14:51.196 I know you did try psychedelics while you were writing 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:53.956 your book. You say that you felt your sense of 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:57.476 self scattered to the wind like a blizzard of post its. 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:01.396 And I'm wondering, can you just paint a scene of 0:15:01.436 --> 0:15:05.276 the many ways in which ego dissolution expressed itself during 0:15:05.316 --> 0:15:05.876 your trips. 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:11.116 It was such an interesting, strange experience. I was really 0:15:11.156 --> 0:15:14.036 not prepared for it. So I had a fairly high 0:15:14.036 --> 0:15:19.116 dose psilocybin experience guided by an underground guide somebody I 0:15:19.156 --> 0:15:22.036 really trusted. And I mentioned that because if you're going 0:15:22.116 --> 0:15:26.396 to let go to the extent of allowing your sense 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:28.836 of self to completely vanish, you're going to have to 0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:31.556 feel very safe and very comfortable. And I did, you know, 0:15:31.676 --> 0:15:36.356 under her guidance. And anyway, at a certain point, well 0:15:36.396 --> 0:15:40.996 into the experience, she offered me what's called a booster dose, 0:15:41.116 --> 0:15:43.116 and I figured in for a dime, in for a dollar. 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:45.356 I was doing this for my book, actually, and so 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:46.836 I said sure, and I ate. 0:15:46.756 --> 0:15:49.636 Another research purposes, strictly. 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:52.436 For research purposes, you know, in the interest of my readers, 0:15:53.156 --> 0:15:55.676 because it really was because I was although I was 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:58.556 very curious, I was very afraid to do psychedelics, you know. 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.116 I didn't do this till I was like in my 0:16:01.196 --> 0:16:05.476 late fifties, and I had a lot of fear of 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:08.156 what could happen. I had read the stories of you know, 0:16:08.436 --> 0:16:11.396 bad trips, and I didn't know what. Also, you can 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:17.436 discover really unpleasant things about yourself. And anyway, at this point, 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:23.436 I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:26.116 kind of explode in this cloud of post it notes, 0:16:26.276 --> 0:16:29.796 blue post it notes, you know, like confetti, and they 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:32.276 came down to the ground and they kind of masked 0:16:32.316 --> 0:16:35.316 in this pool of blue paint. And that was me. 0:16:35.516 --> 0:16:38.236 And I was absolutely sure it was me, but I 0:16:38.316 --> 0:16:41.636 was perceiving it from this new perspective that I had 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.356 never experienced before. I don't know quite what it was. 0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:51.316 It wasn't me. It was very equable, disinterested. It had 0:16:51.316 --> 0:16:54.636 no problem with what had happened. I didn't feel threatened 0:16:54.676 --> 0:16:57.716 in any way, and that was me. I was gone 0:16:57.996 --> 0:17:01.396 and that was fine. But I was still aware. And 0:17:01.436 --> 0:17:04.156 it was the first time it ever occurred to me 0:17:04.276 --> 0:17:08.276 that you could have awareness without self, which is something 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:11.276 Buddhistic and Hindus will tell you about. But you know, 0:17:11.356 --> 0:17:15.196 that seemed very far from my experience. And then what 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:19.356 happens when you don't have a self is that you 0:17:19.716 --> 0:17:24.276 merge with everything around you. And in this case, what 0:17:24.396 --> 0:17:31.036 I merged with was a piece of music. And she 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:34.436 put on Bach's Unaccompanied Cello Suite number two in D minor, 0:17:34.436 --> 0:17:37.636 which is a very sad piece of music, so gorgeous. Yeah, 0:17:37.676 --> 0:17:43.796 and I and I became one with the music. It 0:17:43.876 --> 0:17:47.956 was complete merging and it was incredibly beautiful. It's the 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:50.916 most profound experience of music I'd ever had. And I 0:17:51.076 --> 0:17:54.436 felt as though the bow, the horsehair of the bow, 0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:56.796 was going over my body. And then at one point 0:17:56.796 --> 0:18:00.556 that I was inside the well of this you know, 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:06.836 this wooden container, and it was so beautiful, and although 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:10.236 it was very sad, I wouldn't call it a happy experience. 0:18:10.276 --> 0:18:12.356 It was very sad. It was all about death. I 0:18:12.396 --> 0:18:14.476 mean the piece of music. To me, it was all 0:18:14.516 --> 0:18:25.596 about death. But I was completely I had complete acceptance 0:18:25.796 --> 0:18:29.556 that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:33.236 was what was meant to be. Something followed on that 0:18:33.356 --> 0:18:36.796 death of the self. There was a continuing consciousness of 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:41.476 some kind. I know it sounds crazy and very hard 0:18:41.516 --> 0:18:44.636 to put into words. I struggled to describe it in 0:18:44.676 --> 0:18:46.956 the book, but it was one of the most profound 0:18:46.996 --> 0:18:48.916 experiences of my life. 0:18:48.956 --> 0:18:52.996 The struggle you're having putting your experience into words is 0:18:53.316 --> 0:18:57.236 very characteristic of how many people feel after a trip. Right. 0:18:57.276 --> 0:18:59.556 They're saying, this is one of the most profound experiences 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:01.916 of my life, and yet when they try and express 0:19:01.916 --> 0:19:05.596 it in words, it sounds cliche new ag you know, 0:19:05.796 --> 0:19:09.716 everything is love, that sort of thing. It's interesting interviewing 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:13.116 Casey Musgraves, the country music singer and a previous episode 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:15.356 of A Slight Change of Plans about her psychedelic trip, 0:19:15.716 --> 0:19:19.076 and I was actually asking whether the ability to create 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:23.436 music in some way was an antidote to her inability 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:26.876 to fully express the profound insights that she had had 0:19:27.116 --> 0:19:29.196 using the words that we have at our disposal. 0:19:30.196 --> 0:19:32.996 Well, you know, you've just reminded me of one of 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:36.156 the other of the eight characteristics of mystical experience, and 0:19:36.156 --> 0:19:40.636 that's ineffability, the fact that these are very hard to 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:44.436 describe because it kind of defies the language we have. 0:19:44.876 --> 0:19:47.916 Our language wasn't built to describe these kinds of experiences. 0:19:48.316 --> 0:19:51.316 And the other thing that you alluded to is that 0:19:51.396 --> 0:19:56.836 there is a tremendous banality to some of the insights, 0:19:56.876 --> 0:20:00.116 the profound insights that people have, such as love is 0:20:00.156 --> 0:20:03.636 the most important principle in the universe. You know, that 0:20:03.756 --> 0:20:06.516 is banal, but it's also profound. And one of the 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:08.756 things you come out of the experience realizing is that 0:20:08.796 --> 0:20:12.836 it's a very fine line between banality and profundity. And 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:15.316 one of the things psychedelics does is it takes all 0:20:15.436 --> 0:20:19.076 that ironic crust we cover the world with and it 0:20:19.396 --> 0:20:23.916 scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with 0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:28.436 the profundity and beauty of first sight. I mean, awe 0:20:29.116 --> 0:20:32.476 at the ordinary is a really you know, a piece 0:20:32.516 --> 0:20:36.596 of music, a flower, I mean, and that's another way 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:38.956 in which I think you're recovering the mind of the child, 0:20:39.516 --> 0:20:43.276 and that's a wonderful aspect of psychedelic experience. 0:20:48.036 --> 0:20:49.996 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:59.516 of plants. I'm talking with Michael Polland about how psychedelics 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:02.516 can change our minds. I wanted to hear more about 0:21:02.516 --> 0:21:06.356 the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics. Studies show that when they're 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:09.716 administered and guided clinical settings, they can help with a 0:21:09.756 --> 0:21:14.836 surprisingly vast number of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, 0:21:14.996 --> 0:21:17.596 obsessive compulsive disorder, and fear of death. 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:23.476 Now, I was initially kind of suspicious of the you know, 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:26.196 is this some sort of panacea. It's being used for 0:21:26.276 --> 0:21:29.636 all these different things. And I remember interviewing Tom Insull, 0:21:30.636 --> 0:21:33.556 a psychiatrist, former head of the National Institute of Mental Health, 0:21:34.236 --> 0:21:35.916 and I said, isn't this a little weird that all 0:21:35.916 --> 0:21:39.716 these different indications are responding to the same kind of treatment, 0:21:39.876 --> 0:21:43.316 And he said, well, you're assuming that they're all different, 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:46.196 you know, indications. They may be symptoms of a similar brain. 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:49.036 And that is that a brain that's overly rigid in 0:21:49.076 --> 0:21:53.156 its thinking, that's trapped in patterns of rumination, and indeed 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:59.836 all those things depression, anxiety, obsession, addiction represent people stuck 0:21:59.956 --> 0:22:04.436 in loops of destructive thought and behavior, and that what 0:22:04.516 --> 0:22:07.436 psychedelics may do is help you break out of that. 0:22:07.756 --> 0:22:11.196 I mean, certainly that's constant with the use of SSRI's 0:22:11.236 --> 0:22:17.516 selective searchonin reptic inhibitors right, OCDA, anxiety, depression, et cetera. 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:21.196 So it would be very reasonable to expect that what 0:22:21.236 --> 0:22:24.036 Tom is saying applies in this case. I'm wondering if 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:27.836 you can share some examples of the therapeutic benefits that 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:31.436 can be conferred by psychedelics, in particular people who are 0:22:31.556 --> 0:22:36.196 facing what you've referred to as existential distress. Yeah. 0:22:36.236 --> 0:22:38.316 Well, the first group of patients I talked to were 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:41.076 cancer patients, and I interviewed quite a few of them. 0:22:41.476 --> 0:22:44.036 Patrick Mattis is someone I wrote about in detail in 0:22:44.076 --> 0:22:46.516 the book. I never met him, he had died already, 0:22:46.876 --> 0:22:48.596 but I spent a lot of time with his wife 0:22:48.636 --> 0:22:51.316 and his therapist and learning about his story and reading 0:22:51.356 --> 0:22:54.676 his account. And he was a man he was about 0:22:54.676 --> 0:22:57.316 my age at the time, and a journalist like me 0:22:57.436 --> 0:23:01.076 also who had gotten cancer of the bile ducts. And 0:23:01.436 --> 0:23:04.116 his wife noticed the whites of his eyes that turned 0:23:04.196 --> 0:23:08.196 very yellow, and he was given a terminal diagnosis and 0:23:08.556 --> 0:23:11.076 struggled with that for a long time. It was really 0:23:11.116 --> 0:23:14.396 paralyzed by it. He read about this experiment going on 0:23:14.436 --> 0:23:18.796 at NYU. He was in New York, and he decided 0:23:18.836 --> 0:23:21.436 to enroll in this drug trial to see if this 0:23:21.516 --> 0:23:25.036 could help him with his anxiety and depression. His wife 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:28.436 actually was against it because to her it represented giving up, 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:31.036 but he had no intention of doing that. He was 0:23:31.076 --> 0:23:33.276 continuing with his at least for a while with his 0:23:33.396 --> 0:23:37.916 chemo after the experience, and he did it, and he 0:23:38.076 --> 0:23:41.156 had a mystical experience. It was very profound. He described 0:23:41.156 --> 0:23:45.516 it in great detail. He explored his body and visited 0:23:45.596 --> 0:23:48.236 his cancer. He saw it, and at one moment he 0:23:48.676 --> 0:23:51.236 climbed a kind of precipice in his mind and he 0:23:51.316 --> 0:23:55.676 looks out and he sees this kind of plane of consciousness, 0:23:55.836 --> 0:23:58.516 you know, a vista in front of him, which really 0:23:58.636 --> 0:24:01.316 he thought was what would happen to him after he 0:24:01.396 --> 0:24:05.756 was after he died, and he had a sense this 0:24:05.956 --> 0:24:08.916 was where he was going. It wasn't frightening. He was 0:24:09.556 --> 0:24:11.676 he would be okay to go there, but he wasn't ready. 0:24:11.716 --> 0:24:13.756 He still wanted more time with his wife, and he 0:24:13.836 --> 0:24:16.996 kind of turned back, and he came out of the 0:24:17.076 --> 0:24:23.316 experience a changed man, and he had I forget how 0:24:23.356 --> 0:24:26.396 much time it was. It was like another eleven months 0:24:27.156 --> 0:24:30.436 where he was able to have great pleasure in life. 0:24:30.556 --> 0:24:33.196 He would spend his days walking along the Brooklyn Pier 0:24:33.876 --> 0:24:37.716 checking out new restaurants, had really good periods of time 0:24:37.756 --> 0:24:40.916 with his wife, and at a certain point decided to 0:24:40.956 --> 0:24:44.396 stop his chemo, which was really debilitating, and he wanted 0:24:44.396 --> 0:24:46.796 the clarity that would come with just living out his 0:24:46.876 --> 0:24:51.076 last months without medicine in his body. And he died 0:24:51.476 --> 0:24:56.076 a death of acceptance. People I interviewed described his room 0:24:56.156 --> 0:25:00.636 at Mount Sinai as like having this glow. He was 0:25:01.436 --> 0:25:06.916 incredibly settled and happy, and all the staff of the 0:25:06.916 --> 0:25:09.956