1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,596 --> 00:00:36,156 Speaker 2: I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 3 00:00:36,276 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 2: kind of explode in this cloud of blue post it notes, 4 00:00:39,636 --> 00:00:42,436 Speaker 2: you know, like confetti, and they came down to the 5 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:44,996 Speaker 2: ground and they kind of masked in this pool of 6 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:49,156 Speaker 2: blue paint, and that was me. I had complete acceptance 7 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:52,756 Speaker 2: that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 8 00:00:52,836 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 2: was what was meant to be. There was a continuing 9 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 2: consciousness of some kind. I know, it sounds crazy and 10 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:01,796 Speaker 2: very hard to put into words. 11 00:01:02,756 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: That's renowned author Michael Pollan. He's talking about how a 12 00:01:06,476 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 1: guided psychedelic trip on psilocybin molecule found in mushrooms helped 13 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 1: him see his mortality through an entirely new lens. 14 00:01:14,636 --> 00:01:17,716 Speaker 2: This is a very non interventionist therapy. The therapists say 15 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 2: nothing during the experience except would you like a glass 16 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:22,076 Speaker 2: of water or a snack or need to go to 17 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 2: the bathroom. It really they let your mind go where 18 00:01:26,436 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 2: your mind wants to go. It is a kind of 19 00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 2: self exploration, self healing. 20 00:01:34,796 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: On today's show, we hear from Michael Pollan about how 21 00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 1: plants have the power to change our minds. I'm Maya 22 00:01:41,716 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 1: Shunker and this is a slight change of Plans a 23 00:01:44,476 --> 00:01:46,876 Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in 24 00:01:46,916 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: the face of a big change. I'm fascinated by the 25 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 1: kinds of experiences that can drastically change our perspectives, and 26 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 1: guided psychedelic trips have the potential to do just that. 27 00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:12,996 Speaker 1: While psychedelics aren't legal in the US, they have been 28 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:17,116 Speaker 1: used in certain clinical trials and have delivered powerful therapeutic 29 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: benefits for people struggling with things like addiction, depression, and 30 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:25,476 Speaker 1: existential distress. So what's happening to our brains under their 31 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 1: influence that gives rise to these remarkable changes. Michael's written 32 00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 1: two books that explore the answer to this question, How 33 00:02:32,996 --> 00:02:35,396 Speaker 1: to Change Your Mind and This is Your Mind on Plants. 34 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:39,276 Speaker 1: And so today we dig into the science of psychedelics. 35 00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: We started off by discussing the somewhat astonishing fact that 36 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:47,476 Speaker 1: basically every culture in the world has discovered psychoactive plants. 37 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,836 Speaker 1: They contain molecules that can alter human consciousness. We're talking 38 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 1: about the morphine and the opium poppy and the caffeine 39 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 1: in coffee and tea. Michael says there are a few 40 00:02:57,716 --> 00:03:02,116 Speaker 1: explanations for why we're so drawn to these substances, for starters, 41 00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:04,676 Speaker 1: they can provide pain, relief and stave off boredom. 42 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 2: But then I think that there are more profound to 43 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 2: which people have put these psychoactive plants. And I'm talking 44 00:03:12,836 --> 00:03:15,676 Speaker 2: here about the more powerful ones, the ones we call psychedelics, 45 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 2: and that is for access to other realms, other dimensions 46 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 2: of reality and afterworld and underworld, and religious visions essentially, 47 00:03:27,396 --> 00:03:30,196 Speaker 2: you know, mystical experiences that are at the heart of 48 00:03:30,236 --> 00:03:33,436 Speaker 2: a great many religions. And it may well be that 49 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 2: it was these psychedelic substances that opened up that way 50 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 2: of thinking, that gave people the visions that were interpreted 51 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:47,396 Speaker 2: in such a way as to underwrite whole religions. And 52 00:03:47,436 --> 00:03:50,396 Speaker 2: we just think of the artists who were influenced by psychoactives, 53 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:56,316 Speaker 2: you know, new metaphors, new insights, or scientific discoveries. I mean, 54 00:03:56,316 --> 00:04:00,276 Speaker 2: there's a great many scientific discoveries that trace to psychedelic use. 55 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 2: I think of it as the natural history of imagination. 56 00:04:03,636 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 2: But it sure is interesting. 57 00:04:05,076 --> 00:04:07,876 Speaker 1: To think about it is, and I mean it is 58 00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:13,796 Speaker 1: striking to me that it just appears like normal consciousness 59 00:04:14,116 --> 00:04:16,956 Speaker 1: isn't enough for us humans, right, Like we're not sated 60 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 1: by it. And look there's obviously a continuum, and I 61 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: fall closer to the risk averse. I'm more of a 62 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:28,996 Speaker 1: boring person who seems I feel totally fulfilled by my 63 00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:31,516 Speaker 1: current realm of consciousness. I know lots of other people 64 00:04:31,556 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: have a much more exploratory mindset, but it is striking 65 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 1: that across all cultures there is some itch for something 66 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:44,036 Speaker 1: beyond our everyday conscious experience. 67 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 2: And we seek transcendence. Of course, not just through drugs. 68 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 2: Extreme sports and intense periods of physical activity can do 69 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:53,196 Speaker 2: it releasing drugs in the brain, basically, I mean, we 70 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 2: can drug ourselves in all sorts of ways. Fasting does it, dance, 71 00:04:57,236 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 2: ecstatic dance, rhythm, you know, drumming. I think the desire 72 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 2: for transcendence goes really deep, and it's interesting. I mean, 73 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 2: do other creatures have it? We know that some other 74 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:14,116 Speaker 2: animals do like to change consciousness from you know, their 75 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 2: elephants love alcohol apparently, and apparently birds will you know, 76 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 2: favor cannabis seeds over all different kinds seems to addle 77 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 2: them a little bit. But transcendence, that idea that you 78 00:05:26,836 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 2: know that there is another, there is another realm of existence, 79 00:05:31,276 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 2: another way to be, is something that I think is 80 00:05:34,276 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 2: a deep human desire. 81 00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:38,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering, Michael, if you can give us a 82 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:42,596 Speaker 1: quick history lesson, because in recent years there's been a 83 00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:46,556 Speaker 1: huge resurgence of interest in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics 84 00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 1: for people with anxiety, depression, addiction, terminal illness. What's been 85 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:53,836 Speaker 1: responsible for this shift? 86 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:57,116 Speaker 2: Well, you know, one of the big surprises in researching 87 00:05:57,116 --> 00:06:01,116 Speaker 2: psychedelics was discovering how much research had been done during 88 00:06:01,116 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 2: this period from the late forties through the mid sixties 89 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 2: and the fifties. It was, you know, a really vibrant 90 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:12,596 Speaker 2: field of research with some very promising results using LSD 91 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 2: and psilocybin to treat alcoholism, end of life anxiety, things 92 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 2: like that. It was completely respectable, and then the work 93 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 2: stops in the late sixties early seventies, there is a 94 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:27,716 Speaker 2: tremendous backlash under President Nixon, and the culture kind of 95 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 2: turns against them. There's a backlash and the media, which 96 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:35,996 Speaker 2: had been incredibly positive about psychedelics turns on a dime, 97 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:39,556 Speaker 2: and so the research stops. The way it gets restarted 98 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 2: is really a function of a couple things. One is, 99 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:47,636 Speaker 2: you have a group of psychiatrists, therapists of other kinds 100 00:06:47,676 --> 00:06:50,556 Speaker 2: who never lost faith in the fact that these were 101 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 2: powerful therapeutic agents, and in fact, some of them were 102 00:06:53,596 --> 00:06:57,436 Speaker 2: working with them underground, and people in that world started 103 00:06:57,516 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 2: kind of plotting the return of psychedelics. And then in 104 00:07:01,076 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 2: the early nineties they kind of got a signal from 105 00:07:04,676 --> 00:07:08,396 Speaker 2: the FDA. There was a bureaucrat there in charge of 106 00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 2: drug development, and he basically sends a signal to researchers that, look, 107 00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 2: we're going to just treat psychedelics like any other drug. 108 00:07:16,276 --> 00:07:18,396 Speaker 2: If you've got a good experiment, if you've got a 109 00:07:18,436 --> 00:07:21,396 Speaker 2: good indication, you think it's going to be useful for 110 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:26,556 Speaker 2: We're not going to discriminate against it. The key moment, 111 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:30,516 Speaker 2: I think, though, comes when Bob Jesse, who is an 112 00:07:30,516 --> 00:07:34,236 Speaker 2: interesting character. He's not a doctor or a therapist. He's 113 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 2: a computer engineer at Oracle who had experiences with psychedelics 114 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 2: that had convinced him of their value. And he reaches 115 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:47,076 Speaker 2: out to a man named Roland Griffith, who is a 116 00:07:47,436 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 2: very well respected psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins, you know, the 117 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 2: leading medical institution in the country, and they cook up 118 00:07:54,876 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 2: this study and it's not a clinical study, it's not 119 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,516 Speaker 2: a therapeutic study at all. It's an effort to see 120 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:04,756 Speaker 2: whether you could induce a mystical type experience in someone 121 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 2: with a high dose of psilocybin. Mystical type experience is 122 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 2: something that rolls and is personally very interested in. And 123 00:08:11,876 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 2: they do this study that's published in two thousand and six, 124 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 2: and it's the craziest study. I mean, the title is 125 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 2: something like psilocybin can occasion mystical type experience and healthy 126 00:08:23,196 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 2: normal people something like that. And for me to see 127 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:30,156 Speaker 2: these words mystical experience in the pages of a medical 128 00:08:30,236 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 2: journal was just so mind blowing. 129 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 1: And what is the hallmark of a mystical experience? 130 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:39,636 Speaker 2: Good question, I had no idea, But it involves a 131 00:08:39,676 --> 00:08:44,396 Speaker 2: transcendence of space and time. Are euphoric feeling or feeling 132 00:08:44,476 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 2: of intense well being, a dissolution of ego, followed by 133 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:53,396 Speaker 2: a sense of merging with something larger than yourself. You 134 00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:56,716 Speaker 2: feel connected to nature or other people, or the universe 135 00:08:56,756 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 2: of the divinity. And they found that of the two 136 00:09:01,436 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 2: thirds of people who had this mystical experience, they reported 137 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:07,996 Speaker 2: enduring changes in their sense of well being going out 138 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:11,756 Speaker 2: six weeks or eights or something. And in a follow 139 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 2: up study, they found that aspects of their personality, specifically openness, 140 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:21,956 Speaker 2: the trait of openness increased, and that's quite striking because 141 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 2: in general the personality doesn't change in adults. So this 142 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 2: study really is the foundation on which subsequent work has 143 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:33,276 Speaker 2: been done. And by looking at these results that there 144 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:37,636 Speaker 2: seemed to be an improvement and well being, the idea occurred, well, 145 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 2: we should try this with cancer patients. We should try 146 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 2: this with people who have what the psychiatrists call existential 147 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:49,916 Speaker 2: distress over their diagnosis or the proximity of death. And 148 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 2: that became the first clinical trial that the people at 149 00:09:53,516 --> 00:09:55,636 Speaker 2: Hopkins did, and it was duplicated at the same time 150 00:09:55,636 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 2: at NYU. 151 00:09:57,276 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, what's notable about some of these controlled 152 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 1: studies is that participants report that their guided experiences on 153 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: psychedelics are totally singular in nature, right, that they count 154 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:12,636 Speaker 1: among the top most meaningful experiences they've ever had. And 155 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 1: I'd love to dig into the neuroscience just a bit 156 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: so we can understand what is giving rise to these 157 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:20,716 Speaker 1: exceptional subjective states. 158 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 2: Well, the honest answer is, we don't really know. We 159 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 2: have some really interesting hints, but there's a lot more 160 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:31,876 Speaker 2: work to be done. A researcher in England named Robin 161 00:10:31,956 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 2: Carhart Harris put people in an fMRI machine and injected 162 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:40,316 Speaker 2: them with psilocybin in one trial and LSD in another, 163 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:45,476 Speaker 2: and he found something very interesting. Where he expected to 164 00:10:45,476 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 2: see a kind of explosion of activity mirroring the extraordinary 165 00:10:50,956 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 2: visual effects and emotional effects, he actually found the most 166 00:10:55,076 --> 00:10:58,756 Speaker 2: notable thing was a quieting of activity in one particular network. 167 00:10:59,316 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 2: And this network, which I had never heard of, is 168 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:06,196 Speaker 2: the default mode network. The default mode network is the 169 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:08,396 Speaker 2: part of your brain that's most active when you're not 170 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:11,676 Speaker 2: doing anything. It's where your brain goes. It's the default 171 00:11:11,756 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 2: and it was discovered when they were doing fMRI tasks 172 00:11:14,796 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 2: of other kinds and they had to get the baseline. 173 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 2: So they tell people don't do anything, don't think about anything, 174 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 2: or try not to think about anything, just lie there, 175 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 2: and it turns out their brains lit up and all 176 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:26,436 Speaker 2: sorts of stuff went on, and a lot of it 177 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:33,116 Speaker 2: involved self reflection, worry, rumination, thinking about the future, thinking 178 00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:36,396 Speaker 2: about the past. The default mode network seems to be 179 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:40,756 Speaker 2: involved with creating this projection or illusion that we have 180 00:11:40,836 --> 00:11:43,956 Speaker 2: as self. It's involved in time travel, the ability to 181 00:11:43,996 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 2: think about the future, and the past, which, if you 182 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:48,876 Speaker 2: think about it, you need if you're going to have 183 00:11:48,916 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 2: a sense of self. Our sense of self is what's 184 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:53,196 Speaker 2: happened to us in the past and what we hope 185 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 2: will happen in the future, or what we think might 186 00:11:55,236 --> 00:11:58,276 Speaker 2: happen to us in the future. It's also involved in 187 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:01,956 Speaker 2: something called theory of mind. That's the ability to imagine 188 00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:05,076 Speaker 2: the thoughts of other people, to understand that other people 189 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 2: have thoughts, have a subjectivity, have an interiority. That's a 190 00:12:08,676 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 2: big deal. And it's involved in what's called the narrative self, 191 00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 2: the story we tell ourselves of who we are and 192 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 2: how we take new events and kind of weave them 193 00:12:21,316 --> 00:12:25,196 Speaker 2: into that narrative. So you know, to the extent the 194 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:27,636 Speaker 2: self has an address in the brain. It appears to 195 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:32,116 Speaker 2: be in this network. And this network gets very quiet 196 00:12:32,596 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 2: under psychedelics and in the minds of very experienced meditators, 197 00:12:38,636 --> 00:12:43,196 Speaker 2: and you know Robin, then you know correlated reports of 198 00:12:43,396 --> 00:12:49,356 Speaker 2: ego dissolution, and people can describe that it's quite a 199 00:12:49,396 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 2: wild experience. You observe your sense of self completely melting 200 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 2: or crumbling. It once happened to me when people reported 201 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:01,996 Speaker 2: that they had the most precipitous drops in activity in 202 00:13:02,036 --> 00:13:04,556 Speaker 2: the default mode network. So that's one of the findings 203 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 2: really of psychedelic science already. That is significant, I think 204 00:13:08,956 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 2: for our understanding of consciousness and the self. But it's 205 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:14,276 Speaker 2: not the only theory of what's going on. There are 206 00:13:14,276 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 2: people who aren't sold on the default mode. We're hoping 207 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 2: to get some more precise answers to these questions. 208 00:13:21,676 --> 00:13:26,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in addition to some of the therapeutic effects, 209 00:13:26,636 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 1: it is so compelling that this basic research can help 210 00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 1: us further understand what brain structures are associated with our 211 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 1: sense of self. 212 00:13:36,396 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's another area to investigate, too, is what psychedelics 213 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 2: might teach us about the consciousness of children. You may 214 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 2: know Alison Gopnik. 215 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:50,436 Speaker 1: Alison, Yes, I'm such a fan of hers. 216 00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 2: And she studies child consciousness and problem solving, and she's 217 00:13:55,436 --> 00:14:00,556 Speaker 2: convinced that the psychedelic experience is as close as adults 218 00:14:00,596 --> 00:14:03,236 Speaker 2: get to the mind of the child and the way 219 00:14:03,276 --> 00:14:05,596 Speaker 2: of thinking and the kind of what she describes as 220 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 2: the lantern consciousness, as opposed to the consciousness of adults, 221 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 2: which is very focused and linear. Children take in information 222 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 2: from all different sides, which allows for a different kind 223 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 2: of creativity, and she thinks that there's a retrogression in 224 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 2: psychedelic consciousness that closely resembles that of children. So that's 225 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:28,636 Speaker 2: a whole other avenue of exploration. That's very exciting. 226 00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love her quote that babies and children are 227 00:14:31,796 --> 00:14:35,756 Speaker 1: basically tripping all the time. Yes, what a lovely, colorful 228 00:14:35,796 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 1: way of saying it. 229 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:40,476 Speaker 2: This was an insight she had when her granddaughter was born. 230 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:44,956 Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah. You know you mentioned that you 231 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,916 Speaker 1: did have the experience of feeling your ego dissolved, and 232 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:51,196 Speaker 1: I know you did try psychedelics while you were writing 233 00:14:51,236 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 1: your book. You say that you felt your sense of 234 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 1: self scattered to the wind like a blizzard of post its. 235 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, can you just paint a scene of 236 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:05,276 Speaker 1: the many ways in which ego dissolution expressed itself during 237 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: your trips. 238 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 2: It was such an interesting, strange experience. I was really 239 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:14,036 Speaker 2: not prepared for it. So I had a fairly high 240 00:15:14,036 --> 00:15:19,116 Speaker 2: dose psilocybin experience guided by an underground guide somebody I 241 00:15:19,156 --> 00:15:22,036 Speaker 2: really trusted. And I mentioned that because if you're going 242 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 2: to let go to the extent of allowing your sense 243 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 2: of self to completely vanish, you're going to have to 244 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,556 Speaker 2: feel very safe and very comfortable. And I did, you know, 245 00:15:31,676 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 2: under her guidance. And anyway, at a certain point, well 246 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 2: into the experience, she offered me what's called a booster dose, 247 00:15:41,116 --> 00:15:43,116 Speaker 2: and I figured in for a dime, in for a dollar. 248 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:45,356 Speaker 2: I was doing this for my book, actually, and so 249 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:46,836 Speaker 2: I said sure, and I ate. 250 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 1: Another research purposes, strictly. 251 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:52,436 Speaker 2: For research purposes, you know, in the interest of my readers, 252 00:15:53,156 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 2: because it really was because I was although I was 253 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:58,556 Speaker 2: very curious, I was very afraid to do psychedelics, you know. 254 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 2: I didn't do this till I was like in my 255 00:16:01,196 --> 00:16:05,476 Speaker 2: late fifties, and I had a lot of fear of 256 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 2: what could happen. I had read the stories of you know, 257 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:11,396 Speaker 2: bad trips, and I didn't know what. Also, you can 258 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:17,436 Speaker 2: discover really unpleasant things about yourself. And anyway, at this point, 259 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:23,436 Speaker 2: I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 260 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:26,116 Speaker 2: kind of explode in this cloud of post it notes, 261 00:16:26,276 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 2: blue post it notes, you know, like confetti, and they 262 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:32,276 Speaker 2: came down to the ground and they kind of masked 263 00:16:32,316 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 2: in this pool of blue paint. And that was me. 264 00:16:35,516 --> 00:16:38,236 Speaker 2: And I was absolutely sure it was me, but I 265 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 2: was perceiving it from this new perspective that I had 266 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 2: never experienced before. I don't know quite what it was. 267 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:51,316 Speaker 2: It wasn't me. It was very equable, disinterested. It had 268 00:16:51,316 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 2: no problem with what had happened. I didn't feel threatened 269 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 2: in any way, and that was me. I was gone 270 00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 2: and that was fine. But I was still aware. And 271 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:04,156 Speaker 2: it was the first time it ever occurred to me 272 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:08,276 Speaker 2: that you could have awareness without self, which is something 273 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:11,276 Speaker 2: Buddhistic and Hindus will tell you about. But you know, 274 00:17:11,356 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 2: that seemed very far from my experience. And then what 275 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:19,356 Speaker 2: happens when you don't have a self is that you 276 00:17:19,716 --> 00:17:24,276 Speaker 2: merge with everything around you. And in this case, what 277 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 2: I merged with was a piece of music. And she 278 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 2: put on Bach's Unaccompanied Cello Suite number two in D minor, 279 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:37,636 Speaker 2: which is a very sad piece of music, so gorgeous. Yeah, 280 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:43,796 Speaker 2: and I and I became one with the music. It 281 00:17:43,876 --> 00:17:47,956 Speaker 2: was complete merging and it was incredibly beautiful. It's the 282 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 2: most profound experience of music I'd ever had. And I 283 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:54,436 Speaker 2: felt as though the bow, the horsehair of the bow, 284 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 2: was going over my body. And then at one point 285 00:17:56,796 --> 00:18:00,556 Speaker 2: that I was inside the well of this you know, 286 00:18:00,916 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 2: this wooden container, and it was so beautiful, and although 287 00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 2: it was very sad, I wouldn't call it a happy experience. 288 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 2: It was very sad. It was all about death. I 289 00:18:12,396 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 2: mean the piece of music. To me, it was all 290 00:18:14,516 --> 00:18:25,596 Speaker 2: about death. But I was completely I had complete acceptance 291 00:18:25,796 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 292 00:18:29,596 --> 00:18:33,236 Speaker 2: was what was meant to be. Something followed on that 293 00:18:33,356 --> 00:18:36,796 Speaker 2: death of the self. There was a continuing consciousness of 294 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:41,476 Speaker 2: some kind. I know it sounds crazy and very hard 295 00:18:41,516 --> 00:18:44,636 Speaker 2: to put into words. I struggled to describe it in 296 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:46,956 Speaker 2: the book, but it was one of the most profound 297 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:48,916 Speaker 2: experiences of my life. 298 00:18:48,956 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 1: The struggle you're having putting your experience into words is 299 00:18:53,316 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: very characteristic of how many people feel after a trip. Right. 300 00:18:57,276 --> 00:18:59,556 Speaker 1: They're saying, this is one of the most profound experiences 301 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 1: of my life, and yet when they try and express 302 00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:05,596 Speaker 1: it in words, it sounds cliche new ag you know, 303 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:09,716 Speaker 1: everything is love, that sort of thing. It's interesting interviewing 304 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:13,116 Speaker 1: Casey Musgraves, the country music singer and a previous episode 305 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: of A Slight Change of Plans about her psychedelic trip, 306 00:19:15,716 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: and I was actually asking whether the ability to create 307 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 1: music in some way was an antidote to her inability 308 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:26,876 Speaker 1: to fully express the profound insights that she had had 309 00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:29,196 Speaker 1: using the words that we have at our disposal. 310 00:19:30,196 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you've just reminded me of one of 311 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 2: the other of the eight characteristics of mystical experience, and 312 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:40,636 Speaker 2: that's ineffability, the fact that these are very hard to 313 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:44,436 Speaker 2: describe because it kind of defies the language we have. 314 00:19:44,876 --> 00:19:47,916 Speaker 2: Our language wasn't built to describe these kinds of experiences. 315 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 2: And the other thing that you alluded to is that 316 00:19:51,396 --> 00:19:56,836 Speaker 2: there is a tremendous banality to some of the insights, 317 00:19:56,876 --> 00:20:00,116 Speaker 2: the profound insights that people have, such as love is 318 00:20:00,156 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 2: the most important principle in the universe. You know, that 319 00:20:03,756 --> 00:20:06,516 Speaker 2: is banal, but it's also profound. And one of the 320 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 2: things you come out of the experience realizing is that 321 00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 2: it's a very fine line between banality and profundity. And 322 00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:15,316 Speaker 2: one of the things psychedelics does is it takes all 323 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 2: that ironic crust we cover the world with and it 324 00:20:19,396 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 2: scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with 325 00:20:24,116 --> 00:20:28,436 Speaker 2: the profundity and beauty of first sight. I mean, awe 326 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:32,476 Speaker 2: at the ordinary is a really you know, a piece 327 00:20:32,516 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 2: of music, a flower, I mean, and that's another way 328 00:20:36,596 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 2: in which I think you're recovering the mind of the child, 329 00:20:39,516 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 2: and that's a wonderful aspect of psychedelic experience. 330 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 331 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 1: of plants. I'm talking with Michael Polland about how psychedelics 332 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 1: can change our minds. I wanted to hear more about 333 00:21:02,516 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 1: the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics. Studies show that when they're 334 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: administered and guided clinical settings, they can help with a 335 00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: surprisingly vast number of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, 336 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:17,596 Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder, and fear of death. 337 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 2: Now, I was initially kind of suspicious of the you know, 338 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,196 Speaker 2: is this some sort of panacea. It's being used for 339 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:29,636 Speaker 2: all these different things. And I remember interviewing Tom Insull, 340 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 2: a psychiatrist, former head of the National Institute of Mental Health, 341 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 2: and I said, isn't this a little weird that all 342 00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:39,716 Speaker 2: these different indications are responding to the same kind of treatment, 343 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 2: And he said, well, you're assuming that they're all different, 344 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 2: you know, indications. They may be symptoms of a similar brain. 345 00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 2: And that is that a brain that's overly rigid in 346 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:53,156 Speaker 2: its thinking, that's trapped in patterns of rumination, and indeed 347 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 2: all those things depression, anxiety, obsession, addiction represent people stuck 348 00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 2: in loops of destructive thought and behavior, and that what 349 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 2: psychedelics may do is help you break out of that. 350 00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly that's constant with the use of SSRI's 351 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:17,516 Speaker 1: selective searchonin reptic inhibitors right, OCDA, anxiety, depression, et cetera. 352 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:21,196 Speaker 1: So it would be very reasonable to expect that what 353 00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: Tom is saying applies in this case. I'm wondering if 354 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 1: you can share some examples of the therapeutic benefits that 355 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,436 Speaker 1: can be conferred by psychedelics, in particular people who are 356 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 1: facing what you've referred to as existential distress. Yeah. 357 00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 2: Well, the first group of patients I talked to were 358 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 2: cancer patients, and I interviewed quite a few of them. 359 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:44,036 Speaker 2: Patrick Mattis is someone I wrote about in detail in 360 00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:46,516 Speaker 2: the book. I never met him, he had died already, 361 00:22:46,876 --> 00:22:48,596 Speaker 2: but I spent a lot of time with his wife 362 00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 2: and his therapist and learning about his story and reading 363 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 2: his account. And he was a man he was about 364 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 2: my age at the time, and a journalist like me 365 00:22:57,436 --> 00:23:01,076 Speaker 2: also who had gotten cancer of the bile ducts. And 366 00:23:01,436 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 2: his wife noticed the whites of his eyes that turned 367 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:08,196 Speaker 2: very yellow, and he was given a terminal diagnosis and 368 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:11,076 Speaker 2: struggled with that for a long time. It was really 369 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:14,396 Speaker 2: paralyzed by it. He read about this experiment going on 370 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 2: at NYU. He was in New York, and he decided 371 00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 2: to enroll in this drug trial to see if this 372 00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:25,036 Speaker 2: could help him with his anxiety and depression. His wife 373 00:23:25,076 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 2: actually was against it because to her it represented giving up, 374 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:31,036 Speaker 2: but he had no intention of doing that. He was 375 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:33,276 Speaker 2: continuing with his at least for a while with his 376 00:23:33,396 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 2: chemo after the experience, and he did it, and he 377 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:41,156 Speaker 2: had a mystical experience. It was very profound. He described 378 00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:45,516 Speaker 2: it in great detail. He explored his body and visited 379 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 2: his cancer. He saw it, and at one moment he 380 00:23:48,676 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 2: climbed a kind of precipice in his mind and he 381 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:55,676 Speaker 2: looks out and he sees this kind of plane of consciousness, 382 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,516 Speaker 2: you know, a vista in front of him, which really 383 00:23:58,636 --> 00:24:01,316 Speaker 2: he thought was what would happen to him after he 384 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:05,756 Speaker 2: was after he died, and he had a sense this 385 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 2: was where he was going. It wasn't frightening. He was 386 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:11,676 Speaker 2: he would be okay to go there, but he wasn't ready. 387 00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 2: He still wanted more time with his wife, and he 388 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 2: kind of turned back, and he came out of the 389 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:23,316 Speaker 2: experience a changed man, and he had I forget how 390 00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:26,396 Speaker 2: much time it was. It was like another eleven months 391 00:24:27,156 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 2: where he was able to have great pleasure in life. 392 00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:33,196 Speaker 2: He would spend his days walking along the Brooklyn Pier 393 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,716 Speaker 2: checking out new restaurants, had really good periods of time 394 00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:40,916 Speaker 2: with his wife, and at a certain point decided to 395 00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 2: stop his chemo, which was really debilitating, and he wanted 396 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:46,796 Speaker 2: the clarity that would come with just living out his 397 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 2: last months without medicine in his body. And he died 398 00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:56,076 Speaker 2: a death of acceptance. People I interviewed described his room 399 00:24:56,156 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 2: at Mount Sinai as like having this glow. He was 400 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:06,916 Speaker 2: incredibly settled and happy, and all the staff of the 401 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 2: hospital would want to come by this room to get 402 00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 2: you a taste of this man who was approaching death 403 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 2: with such equanimity. So it was, you know, it was incredible. 404 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 2: And at one point his wife sent me a photograph 405 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 2: of him snapped like three or four days before his death, 406 00:25:23,476 --> 00:25:28,236 Speaker 2: and he was very thin, wearing the hospital smock, and 407 00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 2: he had an oxygen clip in his nose and he 408 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:36,396 Speaker 2: was beaming, so that you had a profound effect on me. 409 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:41,596 Speaker 2: And I interviewed a great many patients about their experiences, 410 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:44,516 Speaker 2: and there were a lot of common denominators. One was 411 00:25:44,556 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 2: a kind of a confrontation with death and a confrontation 412 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:53,036 Speaker 2: with one's cancer, and in most cases it made people 413 00:25:53,756 --> 00:25:56,156 Speaker 2: much more accepting of their death. So I think it 414 00:25:56,196 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 2: has a powerful application there for people with life changing diagnoses, 415 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:03,996 Speaker 2: and obviously not just cancer, I mean someone with an 416 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 2: als diagnosis or any number of other terminal diagnoses. I 417 00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 2: was kind of sold on it for that use, and 418 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 2: because we have so little to offer people, you know, 419 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 2: we give them morphine which dulls their minds, and this 420 00:26:15,076 --> 00:26:19,436 Speaker 2: clarifies their minds. So you know, hopefully this will become common. 421 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:25,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, Patrick's story reminds me of the most stirring, 422 00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: powerful part of your book, which is learning that many 423 00:26:30,276 --> 00:26:32,916 Speaker 1: people believe that the insights that they've tapped into while 424 00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: they're on these psychedelic trips do represent objective truths about 425 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:39,756 Speaker 1: the universe, right, this noedic quality, and that you know, 426 00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: they're not just dismissing their insights as these zany things 427 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 1: that they had while they were high they see their 428 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: experience as as this kind of window into some more 429 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 1: accurate view of reality. You know, take Patrick who believes 430 00:26:54,316 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 1: that he's confronted what his afterlife will look like, and 431 00:26:57,996 --> 00:27:03,756 Speaker 1: to me, it raises some very interesting philosophical and moral questions. 432 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:07,156 Speaker 2: I struggle with that, and I asked some of the 433 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:11,316 Speaker 2: researchers about this, and I got a range of answers. 434 00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 2: I mean, one is, you know, well, we don't really 435 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:17,956 Speaker 2: know what happens after someone dies, and it's not for 436 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 2: us to tell our patients what happens after someone dies. 437 00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 2: But I would say, you know, well, maybe what you're 438 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 2: administering is a delusion to people. And I remember one 439 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:29,436 Speaker 2: researcher said, hey, if it works, who cares it? Took 440 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:31,116 Speaker 2: a purely pragmatic view. 441 00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 1: That's my camp for what it's worth. 442 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:33,636 Speaker 2: Really. Yeah. 443 00:27:33,636 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 1: Absolutely, As someone who studies cognitive science and believes I 444 00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 1: guess I have a very reductionist view of life. But 445 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:40,996 Speaker 1: I am of the mind that all we are are 446 00:27:41,156 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 1: subjective states, and so in the throes of a terminal illness, 447 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:48,156 Speaker 1: if you can be brought relief by believing the afterlife 448 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 1: is one thing, great, you've reduced suffering. But again, not 449 00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: everybody has my exceedingly reductionist view of human existence. 450 00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:59,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's something that needs to be explored. 451 00:27:59,356 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there are many ethical issues 452 00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:06,556 Speaker 2: raised by psychedelics. But it's also important to understand that 453 00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 2: it's not the researchers that are planting this image of 454 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 2: the afterlife, and it's not the pill. The pill is 455 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 2: just is a catalyst for thoughts and fantasies and images. 456 00:28:20,916 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 2: They're not priming you to have an afterlife experience. They 457 00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:26,636 Speaker 2: may be priming you a little bit to have a 458 00:28:26,676 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 2: mystical experience in the way they prepare you. I mean 459 00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:33,316 Speaker 2: that needs to be looked at. But everything that happens 460 00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 2: on a psychedelic experience is the product of your mind 461 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 2: and to some extent, your expectations and your setting. I 462 00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:42,916 Speaker 2: mean we know about. 463 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:45,156 Speaker 1: Set and setting very suggestible, yeah. 464 00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:50,116 Speaker 2: Very suggestible, But it's really your creation. This isn't mind control. 465 00:28:50,836 --> 00:28:54,116 Speaker 2: So if that's where somebody's mind takes them and that's 466 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 2: a helpful place, it's hard to argue with that. I mean, 467 00:28:56,956 --> 00:28:59,316 Speaker 2: I mean, I tend to agree with you, but you know, 468 00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 2: I mean, people might have ethical qualms about that. But 469 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:05,956 Speaker 2: I come back to the fact that there's no information 470 00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:10,636 Speaker 2: in the molecule. Right, it's all what your what your 471 00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 2: mind is creating. 472 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's subjective states, Yeah, it's it's about maybe 473 00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:18,876 Speaker 1: maybe a reframing for skeptics or people who might have 474 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:22,476 Speaker 1: some concerns is that it is essentially a creative exploration 475 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:27,596 Speaker 1: into the types of things that could reassure an individual person. Right, 476 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:31,956 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, what what would pacify Patrick in this 477 00:29:32,076 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 1: very specific situation and his mind engages with that. 478 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:39,516 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting there is you're healing yourself, right, 479 00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:42,236 Speaker 2: I mean, and in fact, that is a large part 480 00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:44,636 Speaker 2: what happens. I mean, these are this is a very 481 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 2: non interventionist therapy. The therapists say nothing during the experience 482 00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 2: except would you like a glass of water or a 483 00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 2: snack or need to go to the bathroom. It really 484 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:56,396 Speaker 2: they let your mind go where your mind wants to go. 485 00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:00,956 Speaker 2: It is a kind of self exploration, self healing, and 486 00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:04,556 Speaker 2: you know, there's there's so much more we need to 487 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:05,876 Speaker 2: learn about it. 488 00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:08,596 Speaker 1: For scaredy cats like me Michael, who will almost certainly 489 00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:12,436 Speaker 1: never be willing to do a psychedelic trip. Are there 490 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:17,316 Speaker 1: ways of approximating the effects of psychedelics through other means, yes. 491 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 2: There are. The most interesting one I came across is 492 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:25,316 Speaker 2: something called holotropic breath work. This was devised by Stan Groff, 493 00:30:25,396 --> 00:30:27,236 Speaker 2: who was a psychiatrist who was doing a lot of 494 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 2: psychedelic therapy in the sixties, and once the drugs were 495 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:33,156 Speaker 2: made illegal, he wanted to find a legal way to 496 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:35,716 Speaker 2: get the same results because he was getting amazing results 497 00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:40,116 Speaker 2: with his patients, and borrowing from many different traditions, including 498 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 2: yogic breathing techniques, he came up with this way of 499 00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:49,196 Speaker 2: inducing a trance state that is very much like psychedelics. 500 00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 2: I did it once, and you basically have this pattern 501 00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:56,876 Speaker 2: of breathing that I think hyperventilates you. You're breathing very 502 00:30:56,916 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 2: fast and exhaling more than you're inhaling, and they're playing 503 00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:05,596 Speaker 2: very loud, rhythmic drumming, and after a certain amount of time, 504 00:31:05,716 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 2: a few minutes, you enter into this state where you 505 00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:12,796 Speaker 2: and do that breathing without trying to. You're on your back, 506 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 2: but you're dancing, all your limbs are moving. It's the 507 00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:19,276 Speaker 2: strangest thing that you could induce this trance and you 508 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:23,076 Speaker 2: have the kind of imagery that you do on psychedelic experience. 509 00:31:23,196 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 2: And I did it, and I felt like I'd run 510 00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 2: a marathon when it was over. It was a very 511 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 2: intense experience, no drugs involved whatsoever. What is it doing 512 00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:34,156 Speaker 2: in the brain. I think it may in fact be 513 00:31:34,236 --> 00:31:36,716 Speaker 2: doing the same thing to the default mode network, because 514 00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:40,996 Speaker 2: you're probably starving the brain of oxygen. But yes, there 515 00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 2: are non pharmacological ways to get similar effects. 516 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 1: I do wonder whether we as humans would be more 517 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:53,076 Speaker 1: tolerant of non pharmacological states that actually rival the psychedelic 518 00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:56,276 Speaker 1: ones if they're negative, if they're not drug induced, Like 519 00:31:56,316 --> 00:32:00,036 Speaker 1: there's somehow this bias against the drug induced bad trip. 520 00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:02,316 Speaker 1: But if I were to achieve that psychological state through 521 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:04,756 Speaker 1: natural means, somehow, I'm more okay with the idea of 522 00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 1: it going sour or being scary. 523 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:10,956 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, we have a prejudic against exogenous drugs, 524 00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 2: but there are ways to drug yourself without them, and 525 00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 2: this is one. There may be risks though to doing that. 526 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 2: We haven't talked about risk, but one of the really 527 00:32:20,516 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 2: striking things about the classical psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin 528 00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 2: and DMT is that there is no lethal dose. You 529 00:32:27,796 --> 00:32:31,076 Speaker 2: can't overdose on these drugs and you can't overdose on 530 00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:33,596 Speaker 2: all sorts of over the counter drugs. There is no 531 00:32:33,716 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 2: risk of addiction either. I mean, I'm not trying to 532 00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 2: sell you on anything, Maya. 533 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:40,196 Speaker 1: Oh no, you haven't sold me on anything. I'm still 534 00:32:40,236 --> 00:32:40,916 Speaker 1: not going to do it. 535 00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 2: But the risks, such as they are are. There are 536 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:49,436 Speaker 2: psychological risks. People do get into psychological trouble, especially when 537 00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 2: they don't pay enough attention to set and setting, and 538 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:54,236 Speaker 2: they don't do it with a guide, and they don't 539 00:32:54,236 --> 00:32:57,436 Speaker 2: do it in a safe environment. It can be you know, 540 00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:00,516 Speaker 2: it can be terrifying, and so you do have to 541 00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 2: keep that in mind. But when you know, I came 542 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:06,116 Speaker 2: to it late and I did my due diligence. I 543 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 2: was not a twenty year old, you know, with no 544 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 2: proper sense of you wrote a whole. 545 00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:12,396 Speaker 1: Freaking book on it. No one's going to be able 546 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 1: to compete with you on that front in terms of 547 00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:15,396 Speaker 1: doing your due diligence. 548 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:17,436 Speaker 2: Well, but I wanted to make sure it was safe, 549 00:33:17,436 --> 00:33:19,756 Speaker 2: and I really did look at all the research and 550 00:33:20,316 --> 00:33:23,956 Speaker 2: convince myself this wasn't a stupid or irresponsible thing to do. 551 00:33:24,756 --> 00:33:27,596 Speaker 2: There are legal risks we should point out. Unless you're 552 00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:29,756 Speaker 2: in a drug trial. You know, you go to a 553 00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:35,356 Speaker 2: university and enter. But aside from that, I convinced myself 554 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:38,076 Speaker 2: that the benefits would probably outweigh the risks, and I 555 00:33:38,116 --> 00:33:39,636 Speaker 2: certainly feel that way having done it. 556 00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:43,716 Speaker 1: I'd love to ask you a more personal question about 557 00:33:43,756 --> 00:33:47,476 Speaker 1: the long term impact psychedelics have had on your own life. 558 00:33:47,596 --> 00:33:51,116 Speaker 1: What are some enduring changes you've had in your perspective 559 00:33:51,916 --> 00:33:53,876 Speaker 1: or your personality ever since? 560 00:33:55,076 --> 00:33:57,836 Speaker 2: You know, I think the big thing is I acquired 561 00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:01,636 Speaker 2: and it was during that episode of ego dissolution or 562 00:34:01,876 --> 00:34:05,236 Speaker 2: you know, dissolution of self that I described a little 563 00:34:05,316 --> 00:34:09,716 Speaker 2: more perspective on my ego or self I identify with it. 564 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 2: I thought I was that person that voice, and I've 565 00:34:13,916 --> 00:34:17,276 Speaker 2: come to see that it's one voice among several in 566 00:34:17,356 --> 00:34:19,956 Speaker 2: my mind, and that I don't necessarily have to listen 567 00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 2: to it, and that sometimes I can recognize that my 568 00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 2: ego is up to his old tricks and he's being 569 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:31,196 Speaker 2: hypercritical or needlessly worrying, and I can kind of get 570 00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:33,556 Speaker 2: some distance on it. And I find that very useful. 571 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:37,276 Speaker 2: It's exactly the kind of insight you might or practice 572 00:34:37,316 --> 00:34:40,916 Speaker 2: you might get out of conventional psychotherapy. But I got 573 00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:43,276 Speaker 2: it in the course of an afternoon, you know, and 574 00:34:43,676 --> 00:34:46,396 Speaker 2: that was very useful. If you ask my wife, she 575 00:34:46,436 --> 00:34:48,956 Speaker 2: would tell you that the experiences have made me more open, 576 00:34:49,196 --> 00:34:52,436 Speaker 2: more emotionally available things like that. I'm not sure I can, 577 00:34:52,676 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 2: you know, I necessarily see that, but it has opened 578 00:34:56,276 --> 00:35:00,916 Speaker 2: up this space of curiosity about myself and self exploration, 579 00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:03,996 Speaker 2: and I found it very useful. I mean every time 580 00:35:04,036 --> 00:35:06,516 Speaker 2: I've done it, you know, I learned things about myself 581 00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 2: I didn't know before, and that's incredibly valuable, especially at 582 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:13,316 Speaker 2: my age. I'm in my sixties now, and you sort 583 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 2: of think that that process, you know, would have slowed 584 00:35:17,396 --> 00:35:20,156 Speaker 2: or ended, but not at all. It's actually been intensified 585 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:20,476 Speaker 2: by this. 586 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 1: Okay, now you're selling me a little bit in the 587 00:35:24,156 --> 00:35:29,236 Speaker 1: last minute, Folks. He gets me while I'm weak in vulnerable. No, 588 00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:31,276 Speaker 1: this is awesome. Thank you so much, Michael. 589 00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:33,956 Speaker 2: Oh my pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you. I 590 00:35:33,956 --> 00:35:35,476 Speaker 2: hope we can do this in person next time. 591 00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:56,556 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive 592 00:35:56,596 --> 00:36:00,356 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 593 00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:04,236 Speaker 1: Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guerra, our senior editor, 594 00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:08,676 Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek, our producer and 595 00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:13,396 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louis Scara wrote our theme song and 596 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:16,956 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 597 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:20,116 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 598 00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:24,196 Speaker 1: to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee tal 599 00:36:24,276 --> 00:36:28,556 Speaker 1: Malotte and Heather Fame, and of course a very special 600 00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:31,876 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change 601 00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:35,556 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker. See you 602 00:36:35,596 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 1: next week. 603 00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:45,236 Speaker 2: So how does this sound? I think I'm on the 604 00:36:45,356 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 2: proper microphone. Why are the three legs of this microphone 605 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:51,276 Speaker 2: not the same length. 606 00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:55,476 Speaker 1: We like to introduce logic puzzles into the mike set up, Michael, 607 00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:57,796 Speaker 1: So if you could figure out the three leg problem, 608 00:36:57,876 --> 00:36:59,276 Speaker 1: that's actually part of the challenge. 609 00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:00,596 Speaker 2: Oh god, this is a 610 00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:02,036 Speaker 1: Admissions ticket to the interview.