1
00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:06,920
Speaker 1: This is it could happen here a podcast that is

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,800
Speaker 1: often in today about state and paramotes very violence. And

3
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,040
Speaker 1: we're back with part two of her interview with Alexander

4
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 1: Vinia about the state and paramilitary violence in the cartels

5
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,280
Speaker 1: in Mexico. The immediate thing I was thinking about this

6
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 1: was it reminds me a lot of, uh, some stuff

7
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: I've read a while back about like smuggling people over

8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 1: the border and about how the American militarization of that

9
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: like destroyed because it used to like as as the

10
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 1: US tries to like make the border more and more unsafe,

11
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:40,880
Speaker 1: it it can becomes harder and harder, and it means

12
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: that like the people who can actually do it, like

13
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,199
Speaker 1: you know, you need to have access to more resources

14
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,200
Speaker 1: and more like technical capability. And that's sort of like

15
00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: and that that also in a lot of ways help

16
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: the cartels because you know it, I was like, Okay,

17
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,040
Speaker 1: so who actually has a bunch of organizational expertise with

18
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 1: smuggling routes and a lot of money? And it's it's

19
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 1: an I think that's like, is it an interesting way

20
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 1: of looking at what the national application of state power

21
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: in these like it does, which is that like it's

22
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,559
Speaker 1: it seems almost like what's happening is that so when

23
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 1: when you get these massive exiertion to state power, it's

24
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 1: not that they like flatten like you know, it's not

25
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,319
Speaker 1: that they just sort of wipe out out resistance. What

26
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,320
Speaker 1: they do is they Yeah, it's what you were saying,

27
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,119
Speaker 1: is like they centralize the drug trip. But it also

28
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 1: they centralize the sort of violent apparatus. And it means

29
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: that like yeah, if if, if you're going to survive

30
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: that you have to be like incredibly efficient and incredibly violent,

31
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 1: and you have to also sort of start like you

32
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 1: you have to start playing with it, like playing by

33
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,039
Speaker 1: the rules at the state of exception, which is you know,

34
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: and that's that's like how I guess the violence level

35
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: and the organizational centralization happens. Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, No,

36
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're right. And I think

37
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: it's also becomes part of the to add I mean,

38
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,640
Speaker 1: so to add you know, fuel to the fire. Even

39
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,280
Speaker 1: more so, it's become a strategy of like the d

40
00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 1: E A and and and counting our cautics forces in

41
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 1: Mexico to to do what you just describe, but then

42
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 1: also to sow dissension amongst the different drug trafficking organizations. Right.

43
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 1: So um, that then also increases the violence. Right. So

44
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: if you can get you know, it was it was

45
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,359
Speaker 1: pretty well known that the Chapel, for instance, the leader

46
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,040
Speaker 1: of the Seneta cartel until well, let's not say leader

47
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,359
Speaker 1: one of the most prominent traffickers of the Senato carteltil

48
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: recently like he was giving up people. He was giving

49
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,520
Speaker 1: information on rivals to the d e A and to

50
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,799
Speaker 1: other other counting arcotics forces, right, And that's part of

51
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 1: the strategy. The strategy is to fragment these groups, um.

52
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 1: And that only concreases the violence. And and you see

53
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,960
Speaker 1: that violence at the very localized level. Um. And this

54
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 1: is what Geretto suffering from right now. Right for a

55
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: long time, under the control of one single drug trafficking organization,

56
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,520
Speaker 1: slash family from the state of Senato us right. They

57
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: used they were originally aligned with their actually cousins with

58
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 1: the Chapa Guzman's family. They had a falling out and

59
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 1: they made two thousand's and they and they went to

60
00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,160
Speaker 1: war and I had disastrous consequences for the people of

61
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 1: Guerredo because it fragmented the drug trafficking organizations and it

62
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: forced different local groups to take sides. Um. And and

63
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: that's kind of how I end the article that that

64
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: you're referencing, right, um, where different local groups start to

65
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,200
Speaker 1: take sides, and that increases the level of violence at

66
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 1: the local level and in communities suffer greatly. Um. And

67
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: that's also a consequence of like the kingpin strategy, right,

68
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: Like this idea that if you take down the perceived

69
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 1: leader of a drug trafficking organization, that's somehow going to

70
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 1: have an impact on drug production. You know, what actually

71
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: happens that it fragments the organization and it creates more

72
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,640
Speaker 1: violence at the local level. Well, at the same time,

73
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: it gives a chance to like x D agents to

74
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 1: go on like you know, national media and be like, oh, yes,

75
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 1: the capture of the chapel is gonna have a great

76
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 1: impact the drug trade. No, well not like it just

77
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 1: increases the violence. And I think that the thing that

78
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,040
Speaker 1: that that's very clear from this article. And I think

79
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 1: it's clear if you you know, if you look at

80
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 1: the drug trade, is it's like no, it's it's it's

81
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,240
Speaker 1: it's largely economic stuff. And like one of the things

82
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about is is you know it is that

83
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,720
Speaker 1: these peasants who are the people who have been able

84
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: to hold onto the collective land basically get forced by

85
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: the lamb bankes to like produce sesame and it's like

86
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,159
Speaker 1: they can't make any money off of it and don't

87
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 1: I don't know how directly it looked to me a

88
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,600
Speaker 1: lot like like that was directly one of the things

89
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,039
Speaker 1: that starts to lead to the shift to the drug

90
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 1: trade there, because you have all these people locked into

91
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,520
Speaker 1: this crop that like just can't support them. Yeah, yeah,

92
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,599
Speaker 1: And it's it's just the bigger story there is is

93
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,960
Speaker 1: really the failure of the post revolutionary Mexican state too

94
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 1: um to really help spur agricultural production at the level

95
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 1: of of these small holding peasants and and these rural

96
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: communities that are these are heels whoever received land from

97
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: the Mexican state UM. If anything, most of the state

98
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 1: subsidies in the state str ructure, state support for agriculture

99
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 1: from the forties, you know, up until the eighties, that

100
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,919
Speaker 1: was all directed to big agro businesses that were producing

101
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,280
Speaker 1: export crops in places like sea at all, right, they're

102
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 1: producing winter crops for the American market or winter fruit

103
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: for the American market. Right, So in the absence of

104
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: like meaningful state support for small holding agriculture, that small

105
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,160
Speaker 1: holding agricultural sector that is meant to feed Mexico. Um.

106
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,920
Speaker 1: You know, some of these these farmers in a place

107
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 1: like call you and they'll say, okay, well, we were

108
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440
Speaker 1: growing this thing that the the Agricultural Bank is telling

109
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,279
Speaker 1: us to grow sessame, but we're not making a lot

110
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 1: of money off of it. But on the other hand,

111
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: by the late sixties, they see that marijuana production is

112
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,920
Speaker 1: is really increasing due to American demand. If I can

113
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,560
Speaker 1: do both things, you know, I'm gonna make a lot

114
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 1: of money and I'm gonna allow my family to make

115
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: a pretty good living while staying in the countryside, while

116
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 1: not having to migrate to Mexico City, or while not

117
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 1: having to migrate to these agriculture fields in northern Mexico

118
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,240
Speaker 1: or even into the United States. So because it's like

119
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,920
Speaker 1: really rational economic response to to to a broader macroeconomic

120
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 1: situation that has put them in that position. The and

121
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,400
Speaker 1: and you still see this to this day. Right, these

122
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 1: these small farmers, they still own their land, they'll grow

123
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 1: certain crops on it, and it's almost serves as a

124
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: shield for UM you know, the opium poppies that they're

125
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: growing on the same plot of land, but in a

126
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: part that's a little you know, harder to access and

127
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more hidden, right, um. But it's

128
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 1: it's it's trying to find a way at a bottom

129
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 1: to make a dignifity, you know, how to make a

130
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 1: life of dignity for your family when you're living in

131
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,839
Speaker 1: the in the countryside, when you're living in a place

132
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 1: like and then you see that, you know, the Getingos

133
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 1: are going crazy over a capug gold in the late sixties. Um.

134
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 1: And you have uh, you know North Getingo traffickers coming

135
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 1: into get Ready with new seeds. Um. Or you have

136
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 1: seen a lewnce is coming into your state saying, you know,

137
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,080
Speaker 1: grow these here are some marijuana sees grow that strain um,

138
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, and they can buy off you know, local

139
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 1: politicians and soldiers and put least that's that's one of

140
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 1: the ways that you get the emergence of industrial proportion

141
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 1: production of marijuana and and opium poppies. And in the

142
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies and again at the same time that

143
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: this massive dirty war is being waged against two different

144
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: peasant guerilla movements, right, So it's like a really messy

145
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 1: like social matrix that's occurring at the same time. I

146
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 1: guess one everything I wanted to talk about was about

147
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 1: how the political parties sort of work into this, because

148
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 1: I guess, like my experience with this sort of like

149
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 1: the kind of like narco state fusions with like twenties

150
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: and thirties China and there, it's like like you're you're

151
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, the Communists have an actual

152
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,680
Speaker 1: independent political base outside of like like the Green Gang,

153
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 1: but like the k MT, it's like like this is

154
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,960
Speaker 1: basically just a like like this like this is this

155
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: is just like an arco organization with like a flag

156
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 1: planted on it. And I'm wondering how, like on what

157
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 1: end of the scale we're working with with the p

158
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,119
Speaker 1: R and also also like with with the other Mexican parties,

159
00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,480
Speaker 1: because it seems like there are like parts of like

160
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,200
Speaker 1: a functional state app like a party state apparatus or

161
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 1: like a party apparatus, and then parts of it that

162
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 1: are just like this is a cartel. Yeah, it's it's

163
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 1: that's a huge question. It's it's um, yes, I've really resistant. No, no, no,

164
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,480
Speaker 1: it's all good. I've I've stopped understanding this within the

165
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 1: framework of like an ARCO state, right, because to think

166
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 1: about an ARCO state, you really have to think about

167
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,679
Speaker 1: how a state was captured by these drug trafficking organizations.

168
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 1: And and I historically and currently, I don't think that

169
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: describes what's what's happening in Mexico. Um, I think what

170
00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: you would. And again it goes back to the question

171
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 1: of what is the state? Right, Like the question drives

172
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 1: like just the good I'm gonna be thinking about this decade. Right,

173
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: But because you have you know you it depends on

174
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 1: what part of the Mexican state you're also referring to. Right. So,

175
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 1: if we're talking about the military, the military has all

176
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 1: segments of the military have always had an important role

177
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 1: to play in the production and trafficking of narcotics from

178
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 1: Mexico into the US from the from like the nineteen tens, right,

179
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 1: the military governor of Baja California, this guy by the

180
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:30,320
Speaker 1: name of Colonel Estevan Kantu. He was helping traffic opium

181
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,560
Speaker 1: um into the United States during the Mexican Revolution, Right,

182
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 1: And this has been a constant right. Um. The guys

183
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,079
Speaker 1: that I talked about in my article this guy Um

184
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,600
Speaker 1: who ends up he he's a general by the time

185
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 1: he's he's arrested in two dozen two. But this guy,

186
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 1: Mario Costa, he was like the main counter insurgent, theorist

187
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 1: and and and and bright mind of the Mexican military

188
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,319
Speaker 1: that gets sent to get right on the seventies to

189
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: wipe out these different guerrilla movements. But he's after they

190
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,000
Speaker 1: wipe out the grilla movements, he stays on. He serves

191
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,959
Speaker 1: as as a kind of like the leader of the

192
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 1: state police forces. And what do you starts to do.

193
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 1: He starts to buy up land allegedly that will start

194
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 1: producing opium poppies and marijuana. And this guy from the

195
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 1: late seventies up until he's arrested in two thousand, it's

196
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,800
Speaker 1: pretty clear they had he had been collaborating with different

197
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,200
Speaker 1: narco trafficking organizations. He gets arrested by his own military

198
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 1: um in two thousand because he it was pretty clear

199
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: that he had been protecting and collaborating with this You

200
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 1: have Guada's cartel and I'm a look jenti um, so

201
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: you know one of these like anti anti guerrilla, anti

202
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,600
Speaker 1: nautical nauticles that will you know, actually go to jail

203
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 1: for about six years, um, because it was pretty apparent

204
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,679
Speaker 1: that he had been for a long time collaborating and

205
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 1: protecting the different narco trafficking organizations. Right. So that's the military.

206
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 1: Then you have like the secret police that gets formed

207
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,839
Speaker 1: in Mexico, the DFS, with the help of the FBI. Um,

208
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 1: the DFS becomes like this political police that the Mexican

209
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: president can use to down on political descent. They're the ones,

210
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 1: you know spine surveillance by the sixties and seventies, are

211
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 1: also torturing, disappearing, and with that level of impunity and power,

212
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,439
Speaker 1: they also get into the drug game. By the seventies

213
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 1: and eighties. Um, you have the federal Judicial Police. They're

214
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,079
Speaker 1: the ones who control for this during the fifties, sixties,

215
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 1: and seventies. Really they're the ones who are controlling, um,

216
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 1: the kickbacks that they're receiving from narco traffickers until the

217
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: military moves in the seventies and takes over for them. Right.

218
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,439
Speaker 1: So the repressive apparatus is within the Mexican state of

219
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,599
Speaker 1: the twentieth century play a really key role, if not

220
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,840
Speaker 1: the role and helping foster create this this political economy

221
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 1: of narcotics. Now, how do how do we view that

222
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: in relation to the p r I right, the party

223
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: that emerges from the Mexican Revolution, the party that will

224
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,560
Speaker 1: rule Mexico generally will say from the late twenties up

225
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 1: until the year two thousand, Well, you have pretty important,

226
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, political officials within the party throughout the twentieth

227
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,200
Speaker 1: century that are directly linked to narco traffickers and directly

228
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 1: linked to military officials who are obviously involved in the

229
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,160
Speaker 1: game as well. But at no level can we say

230
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,000
Speaker 1: it's an arco state because an archos having captured the state.

231
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 1: It's actually the other way around. It's the Mexican post

232
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,839
Speaker 1: revolutionary state that's trying to get its hands around this

233
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,000
Speaker 1: thing that's growing within its own confines, and and and

234
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,959
Speaker 1: by and they lose control of it. Like by the

235
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 1: late eighties and nineties, they've effectively lost control of this thing.

236
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 1: And that's when you see the rise of these um

237
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,679
Speaker 1: highly centralized drug trafficking organizations like this. You have guattest

238
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 1: cartel that's making a ton of money off of the cocaine.

239
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,719
Speaker 1: So I guess it seems like it's almost like you're

240
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 1: dealing with from from from the very very local level

241
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,439
Speaker 1: where you have these sort of landed elites and their

242
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,439
Speaker 1: gun slingers. It's like it's this almost sort of like

243
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,560
Speaker 1: like miniaturized, fractal version of the state, where's like you're

244
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: getting these like very very small sort of like uh

245
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, like almost like fetal domains and that they

246
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 1: sort of expand upwards and stand upwards. But yeah, and

247
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: I guess the interesting part to me is is how

248
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 1: like the paramilitary dynamics of that, and how how the

249
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,560
Speaker 1: power of these sort of land of least into power,

250
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: Like how how it's like like the power like the

251
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 1: the use of power from the top seems to strengthen them.

252
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,960
Speaker 1: Where you know, if if you're looking at this from

253
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 1: like like how how this is supposed to work in theory,

254
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 1: if you're someone who actually just like trying to eliminate

255
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 1: the drug trade, you think would be the way around that,

256
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,960
Speaker 1: like the application of power would shatter but it sort

257
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 1: of doesn't. It causes these like these these build ups,

258
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 1: these apparatus is, and then they fragment and they rebuild again.

259
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 1: But it's you're not ever actually dealing with these sort

260
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: of like micro state like yeah, yeah, no, I think

261
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,560
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And if anything, the paramilitarization is also

262
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 1: like a like a long it's a process, right, So

263
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,199
Speaker 1: like the first if we can use this term, the

264
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,719
Speaker 1: first paramilitaries were used to wipe out a grain and

265
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,719
Speaker 1: reform minded compassinos in the thirties and forties. Um, but

266
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 1: you don't really have like a paramilitarization of of of

267
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 1: the drug trade in Mexico to a certain extent, because

268
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 1: you have the military and the police to do your

269
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,719
Speaker 1: dirty work. Right if you're a nautical UM. That's a

270
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 1: more recent phenomenon that you start to see in the

271
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 1: nineties and especially in the two thousands. So, right that

272
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: the case that everyone points to, or these the elite

273
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 1: of the elite in the Mexican military. The gossis these

274
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: guys are like the Navy seals of the Special Force,

275
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, the army rangers in the Mexican military. A

276
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 1: bunch of these guys in the mid to late nineties decide,

277
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 1: you know what, we don't want to work for the

278
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 1: Mexican military. We're just gonna We're gonna dessert and we're

279
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 1: gonna go hire ourselves out to the Gulf cartel. And

280
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 1: they become really the first like paramilitary wing of a

281
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,040
Speaker 1: major drug trafficking organization. And these are guys, some of

282
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 1: which probably most likely were trained at school the America's

283
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,400
Speaker 1: or received the American specialized training now switching sides and

284
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 1: and and protecting a pretty powerful drug trafficking organization, like

285
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,040
Speaker 1: at the time in the nineties that was the Golf cartel.

286
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 1: And these are the infamous set Us, right, these are

287
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: the zs um. They're called the set us because that

288
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,040
Speaker 1: was like their military code. There was always a Z

289
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 1: in front of a number. UM, so Z one was

290
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 1: kind of like the leader, the first guy who took

291
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen guys with him to dessert. And they

292
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 1: hired themselves out to this drug trafficking organization and they

293
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 1: become like the paramilitary unit. The rest of the group

294
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 1: see that, and they're like, oh, ship, Like we gotta

295
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: catch up, right because these like and these guys the

296
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 1: god is you know, they have the counter andsurgency experience.

297
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 1: You know, they were the ones who were fighting against

298
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 1: US and chiapas in the early nineties, right, they were

299
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 1: the ones that they were sending to. They were the

300
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: ones who were fighting against the new cycle of guerrillas

301
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 1: that emerging get read in the mid nineties the e

302
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 1: p R. And then when they're used for counting our

303
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 1: context operations, they look at the situation they say, you

304
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: know what, we're not going to fight on the side

305
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: of the military. We're gonna hire ourselves out to these

306
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 1: this golf cartel. We're gonna make a ton of money. Um.

307
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 1: But they have a lot of skills, right. So the

308
00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 1: rest of the so the rest of the drug trafficing

309
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 1: ganizations see that, and they're like, we gotta play catch up,

310
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 1: and and and and you see the paramilitarization of this conflict,

311
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 1: and and in certain parts that's what's driving UM. I

312
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 1: think has has played a really big role in driving

313
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: some of the bloodshed and violence that we've seen in Mexico,

314
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,920
Speaker 1: particularly since two thousand six. But we can speak of

315
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: probably four hundred thousand homicides since two thousand six, at

316
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: least a hundred thousand disappearances. UM. A lot of that

317
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 1: has to do with, you know, the people who are

318
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,320
Speaker 1: fighting are our paramilitaries, right They're receiving training from Colombian

319
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: military advisors, They're receiving training from Israeli military officials, they're

320
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 1: receiving training from um Guatemalan special forces, these guys called

321
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: the Kails, who committed some of the worst atrocities during

322
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 1: the Guatemalan conflict of the of the of the seventies

323
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: and eighties. UM my families from which is a state

324
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 1: north of Gerado. And I remember when probably two thousand five,

325
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 1: six or seven, I was down there doing research and

326
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 1: visiting family and they reported on the arrest of two

327
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 1: gaut of Malins and two Colombians in this random, far

328
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 1: off part of me truck down and You're like, what

329
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,160
Speaker 1: were these two Colombians and two Guatemalands doing there? While

330
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,440
Speaker 1: they were most likely like special X special forces in

331
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,440
Speaker 1: those countries, militaries who had been hired by local organizations

332
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,159
Speaker 1: to train their their their soldiers, to train their their paramilitaries. Um.

333
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 1: So that that's I think that has driven a lot

334
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 1: of the violence, right, And you see it's in terms

335
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: of techniques they use, the weapons, the armament, the logics

336
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 1: of of how to take down their enemies. Yeah. I

337
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 1: remember I read an article like, okay, I've literally lost

338
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 1: all sin at the time, I think it was like

339
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 1: mid last year about a cartelogist basically running a military

340
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 1: operation just shutting like shutting down the city. Um, yeah,

341
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,400
Speaker 1: that was pre pandemic. That was it was pre pandemic.

342
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, I remember because that was on

343
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 1: the day and the day after it happened. I think

344
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 1: I went way too much time on Twitter talking to people. Um.

345
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 1: That was when I think you're referring to when the

346
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 1: UH detachment from the Mexican military um in the city

347
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 1: of Koya Khan, which is the capital of Sinaloa. Kuliakhan

348
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: is seen as like Sinaloa is the cradle of the

349
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,119
Speaker 1: Mexican drug trade, then like Kodiakan is the capital of it, right, Um,

350
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 1: I think I think you're referring to when the Mexican

351
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 1: military detachment tried to arrest one of the chapel right,

352
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,919
Speaker 1: and they actually found him, they localized it, they located him,

353
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: and they tried to arrest him, and like the hills

354
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,359
Speaker 1: just came down on the city of Koyakon and you

355
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: had hundreds of of nauticles or paramilitaries who came down

356
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: and essentially forced um forced the military and the state

357
00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 1: to hand over at Chapel's son to them, and and

358
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: for and the reason why I was like, uh, you know,

359
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 1: spent way too much time on social media going after

360
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: people because people said, oh, this is an example of

361
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 1: a failed state. Oh, look at the new president of

362
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: Mexico and he's lost control of the of the state,

363
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: like he's tawtowing too nauticles. And it was much more

364
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,479
Speaker 1: complicated than that, and something similar had already happened um

365
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 1: in the previous administration where these different like particularly in

366
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: the city of of Gadahada, where they even shot down

367
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 1: a military helicopter or police helicopter and they and they

368
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: essentially um shut down the entire city because one of

369
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 1: their leaders have been captured. Okay, so what what are

370
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 1: what are the things? You are the things that you

371
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: talked about. The end of the article is about these

372
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: this environmentalist group that gets like they they all get

373
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: arrested while like their their lawyer gets killed. After we

374
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 1: starts talking about like connections between business owners and the

375
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: party and the DARCO trades, I guess what do you

376
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: how do you sort of like like, how how do

377
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: you left movement sort of navigate the space because you

378
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,120
Speaker 1: have it seemed like you have on the one hand,

379
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, you have all these paramilitaries and then you

380
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: also have a state that is like incredibly violently hostile

381
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: to you. And I guess I don't know, Like, I

382
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: guess you sort of have the Zapatista model of this

383
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,359
Speaker 1: combination of sort of like arm struggle and social pressure.

384
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: But I guess, like, how how how do people navigate

385
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 1: this sort of like it seems like like a really

386
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: disastrous like a place to be trying to do leftist politics,

387
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's really difficult, right, And I think

388
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,479
Speaker 1: that's again going back to the thesis that the war

389
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 1: on drugs is actually war on poor people. It's, um,

390
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, leftist movements, dissident movements in Mexico have to well,

391
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 1: for while, I'll say this in a place like it's

392
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 1: these movements that have provided I think the the most

393
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 1: accurate like X ray analysis of what the state is

394
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: at the local level. Right. So, um, this this guerrilla

395
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 1: leader that I talked about in the article, Commandant Ramo,

396
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 1: who who was around in the late two thousand, seven,

397
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: dozen eight, does nine like based on his travels in

398
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: the mountains of Guerrero and kind of like the actions

399
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: that he was engaged in. For him, it was very

400
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: clear that the military was collaborating with all a narco

401
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: trafficking organizations, not just the one, not just like the

402
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: most powerful one. Right. So at the national level there

403
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: was a lot of discourse of well, this dark drug

404
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: trafficking organization is going at it with this one in

405
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: a place that getrido. This guerrilla leader looks at the situation,

406
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: he's like, actually, they're all working together. And not only that,

407
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 1: but they have the police in the military, and what

408
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: are they doing. They are, um, going after poor communities

409
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: up in the mountains who don't want to grow opium

410
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: poppies or who want to organize a different way, an

411
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: alternative model of of of living, of social reproduction. Um.

412
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: What they'll say is, you know, uh, the what the

413
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: military is doing in terms of drug interdiction is they'll

414
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: only go and and and burn some opium poppy fields

415
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: and not others. And that's because the owner of that

416
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: well popium poppy feeling they burn didn't pay up. Um.

417
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: So you know, now current movements and Garretto partically indigenous

418
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: moves and GEO. There's a recent report that that an

419
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: indigenous group just put out and they're linked to the

420
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: Congress CO, the C and I camember the acronym UM

421
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: where they talk about a criminal state existing in in

422
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: the in the part of guerreron As, Montana, which is

423
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: a heavily indigenous area on the border on the eastern

424
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: part of the state. And what they say is what

425
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: we see here is UH an alliance between nauticles UM,

426
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: political parties, UH, military detachments and transnational corporations UM and so.

427
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: And in Garreto, those transnational corporations are usually have something

428
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: to do with mining and they're usually Canadian UM. So

429
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: how do you navigate that? Like that is like like

430
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: the correlation of forces, if we want to use that

431
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: kind of terminology, Like from a perspective of a group

432
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: that wants to resist, is it's it's it's damn near impossible, right,

433
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: Like you have everything going against you, and yet Ingerero

434
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: people are still resisting. Right. You have the students of

435
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: at NAPA, they're still protesting, they're still organizing, even after

436
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: the disappearance of their forty three comrades back in September,

437
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: and we still don't have a clear answer as to

438
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: what happened. Um, you still have you know, you have

439
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: the model of of a toimey that like that that

440
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: certain indigenous communities like the community in Chadan and have

441
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: have practice which is essentially they kick out all political parties,

442
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: they kick out all police officers, and they self organized

443
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: at the communal level, almost like a community police force.

444
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: And you see that in Guerrero as well. There's all

445
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's challenges with that. There's a that

446
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: usually brings on a lot of violence. And the people

447
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: of Chadan have really suffered for for trying to go this,

448
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: for trying to protect themselves, right, they've they've suffered a

449
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: lot of casualties. Um. And there you have a uh,

450
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: this combination of like narticles and illegal logging, right and

451
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: and so the community there on the one hand is

452
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: trying to protect their ecology, but they're also trying to

453
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: defend themselves from nauticals who have taken over local political

454
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: parties and they don't want them in their in their town.

455
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: In Guereto, you have community police forces and you've had

456
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: them since the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, um. But

457
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: that's raised a lot of issues in terms of you know,

458
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: what happens when one community police force gets cooputi or

459
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: or co opertive or corrupted by a political party or

460
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: by even a nautical and then that that group is

461
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: used to hit against other community groups who are who

462
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: are still trying to organize for for for a radical alternative.

463
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's on one level, it's really depressing, right,

464
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: because everything is stacked against groups and communities and organizations

465
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: in a place like Gueretta who want a better world,

466
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: who want to create a better world. But in the

467
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: longer scope of Gueretto's history, they still resist. They still resist.

468
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: And to me, that's one of the things that fascinates

469
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: me about this place and about its people, about its communities,

470
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: that the odds have always been stacked against them, and

471
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: nonetheless they still resist, they still try to um against

472
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: overwhelming odds. They still try to carve out a better,

473
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: more just more dignified existence for them and for their communities,

474
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: even at great risk, you know, for their well being,

475
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: and they're willing to risk everything. So they're still there.

476
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: They're still there, even though the forces that they're facing

477
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: are are extremely powerful. Yeah, I think that's a surprisingly

478
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: hopeful note to end on, which is that, Yeah, it's

479
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: even in like you know, places with just incredible concentrations

480
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: of violence and different kinds of power against you that

481
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: people people are people continue to fight. Yeah, yeah, I

482
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: think that's I think that's one of the lessons that

483
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: we definitely get from a place like get Um or

484
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: a place like Chiapa's right with with this abotsas who

485
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: are still they are who have still managed to read

486
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: I mean, they've managed to reproduce themselves generationally, which is

487
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: really difficult for an armed um Uh insurrectionary group, right, Like,

488
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: they've managed to do that, and and and and to

489
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: carve out at great cost as well. Right, they're currently

490
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: right now suffering. They've been suffering for for more than

491
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: a decade of low intensity warfare that's been waged by

492
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: the military and their paramilitaries. But they're still there with

493
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: their example, right. And I think part of the power

494
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: of them and the people is their example alone is

495
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: threatening to power to the powers that be, and and

496
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: that's why that there's always an effort to exterminate them.

497
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: So just by virtue of surviving and and and defending themselves. Um,

498
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: that's like a small it seems like a small thing,

499
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: but but they're providing an alternative. And I think that's

500
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: where there their example is really important. And I think

501
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: I think there is I think there's a real argument

502
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: that the whole sort of the whole sort of anti globalization,

503
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: like that wave of struggle like is something that was

504
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: kicked off at that Chistas and like and not just

505
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: on the sort of like they were the first people

506
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: to go into revolt, but it's like I mean explicitly

507
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: like the way they brought you know, like social movements

508
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: from across the world together and the way they you know,

509
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: the way that they like had they got, the way

510
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: they got people talking, the way they have people training

511
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: each other, the techniques and the sort of ideas that

512
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: they were exchanging that they like, like, they they set

513
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: off like a wave of revolt that lasted for like

514
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if you started in like like the

515
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: end of it's like two six. Yes, yeah it was.

516
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: It was incredible. Yeah, no, they I think they there

517
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: And even if you want to go this might take

518
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: us off topic a little bit, right, but like scholars

519
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: who focus on like Venezuela would say, actually the first

520
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: one was the Gotta Castle right in the late eighties,

521
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: when you have a popular rebellion in Catas, Venezuela against neoliberalism,

522
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: against the liberal starity measures, right, and then so I've

523
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: had that. I've had a you know, talk to friends

524
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: will be like, yeah, were the first ones. They're like no, no, no, no, no,

525
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: it's started Dacas eight nine. I think is the god

526
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: a castle, but yeah, no, I think they're their global example.

527
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: It continues to be a really powerful one for me personally.

528
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: It's like, I still remember my parents had My parents

529
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: are are migrants from Mexico. They had this this big

530
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: satellite dish in our backyard so we can beam in uh,

531
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: you know, TV stations from Mexico. And I remember January one,

532
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: we woke up right groggy ley uh, celebrate New Year's

533
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: and my parents turned on the TV to see Mexico

534
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: City news and there was Modocles right, and there were

535
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: the Sabatista's um and there were then the Mexican politicians

536
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: saying no, don't believe what, don't believe your eyes? This

537
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: isn't you had a guy, I remember you had a

538
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: guy go on TV. I think saying something like this

539
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: is not an indigenous movement, because if it was an

540
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: indigenous movement, they would be using machete is not rifles.

541
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: Something really condescending, like the level of racist condescension that

542
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: came out of Mexican politicians and in in response to

543
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: this movement. Um was was super high, right, But I

544
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: remember I was in doing your High and I remember

545
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: seeing it and I'm just like, there has to be

546
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: something wrong for these people to do this right. And

547
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: that just led me to what I do more research

548
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: and to do more reading, and that I think is

549
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: really powerful. I think I still think it's really powerful.

550
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: So the more we can get the word out about

551
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: these movements and in other parts of Latin America, I think,

552
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: I think it's still really important. And I think, especially today,

553
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: we really we do need a bit more hope in

554
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: these dark pandemic times. I was trying to figure out

555
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: a speaking of hope segue and I couldn't. I couldn't

556
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: quite get it. Do you do you have anything that

557
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: you want to plug? Where can people find you? Yeah? Well,

558
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me on this was

559
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: This is a lot of fun. Um. You can find

560
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: me on God like you can find me on Twitter.

561
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: I think the pandemic my Twitter consumption has really gone up,

562
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: been awful. But you can find me at Alexander Underscore AVENA. Yeah, um,

563
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: something I want to plug? No, I think If you

564
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: go on my Twitter page, you'll see you you'll be

565
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: able to get the link to the to the article

566
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: that we've been talking today um about about the drug

567
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: from dirty war to drug war into UM. I recently

568
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: published a book review of this really fascinating book on

569
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: the connection between the Israeli arms industry and like Cold

570
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: War Latin America, So you can find that on my page.

571
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's I don't really have anything else to plug.

572
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: Whenever I finish his damn book on the drug wars,

573
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: have me back on and yeah, definitely tangible to the

574
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: plug right now, it's just short little articles. Well, thank

575
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: thank you again for coming on the show. Um yeah,

576
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 1: this this is this has when they could happen here.

577
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: You can find us in the usual places. If do

578
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: you want to venture on social media for some reason,

579
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: please don't. It's it's a bad place. But yeah, thank

580
00:30:53,080 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: you and goodbye everyone. It could happen here. Production of

581
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media.

582
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

583
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts

584
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

585
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: for it could happen here, updated monthly at cool Zone

586
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: media dot com, slash sources, Thanks for listening.