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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty nine of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm doctor Erica Britney Horn, and I'm on the

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Speaker 2: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast.

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Speaker 1: When I think about black women's humor, I think about

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Speaker 1: the subtle glances we share when something ridiculous happens in public,

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Speaker 1: The physicality of slapping each other on the back after

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Speaker 1: a really good joke. Are the ways in which you

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Speaker 1: can always tell just how a girlfriend is feeling by

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Speaker 1: looking at the expression on her face. Even when meeting

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Speaker 1: a Black woman who is a complete stranger, we still

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Speaker 1: find ways to connect over our shared sins of humor

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Speaker 1: to talk a little more about the subtle nuances of

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Speaker 1: black women's humor and why humor is so sacred to us.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined today by professor, researcher, and Black humor scholar,

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Speaker 1: doctor Erica Britney Horn. In twenty twenty, doctor Horn published

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Speaker 1: her dissertation Sassy Subversions, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,

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Speaker 1: Moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor, earning her

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Speaker 1: PhD in Educational Studies from the University of North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: During our conversation, we chat about what makes black women

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Speaker 1: so funny, how Black women have historically used humor to

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Speaker 1: combat the psychological impacts of oppression, and the ways in

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Speaker 1: which black women's humor is passed down generationally. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session

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Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister circles To talk

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Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community

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Speaker 1: dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us today, doctor Horn.

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Speaker 2: Of course, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I want

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Speaker 1: to get the title correct. The title of your twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty dissertation was Sassy Subversion, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,

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Speaker 1: moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor.

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Speaker 2: So one, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Very curious about that title, and I also want to

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Speaker 1: hear what motivated you to use this at your study.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we love a good title in academics, and we

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Speaker 2: love a colon on top of the colon. But for me,

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Speaker 2: one of the big pieces for humor studies was the

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Speaker 2: ways that I always found that black women in particular

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Speaker 2: were funny, even when they didn't think they were being funny.

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Speaker 2: So for me in my own personal life, I always

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Speaker 2: tell the story about how I was born laughing, and

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Speaker 2: people are like, why would you say something that ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: But it's true, So instead of coming out crying, I

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Speaker 2: was born with this little chuckle. Apparently my mom said,

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Speaker 2: it's an embarrassing story, but it is one that we

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Speaker 2: tell all the time. So from there I just really

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Speaker 2: realized and started to admire the black women my household

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Speaker 2: and we saw that black women were always laughing at

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Speaker 2: something or about something, and it's just something to be

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Speaker 2: said about the ways that when we get together there

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Speaker 2: is laughter or humor somewhere. So I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: capture the ways that black women in particular are always

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Speaker 2: making light of situations in good and bad ways, but

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Speaker 2: in ways that don't happen on the comedic stage. So

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Speaker 2: I wasn't concerned with stand up right, but more so

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Speaker 2: just the everyday Black women in her humor.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, I love that, the everyday humor and it is

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Speaker 1: very deep for sure. So can you share some of

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Speaker 1: the key findings and the major themes.

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Speaker 2: From your study? So one of the things I studied

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Speaker 2: most actually was es race insecure. So in a study

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Speaker 2: like this, I really had to figure out where to study.

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Speaker 2: And I noticed I wanted to look at a lot

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Speaker 2: of the media that portrayed black women in their sisters.

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Speaker 2: So when we get these friend groups together, what's happening?

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Speaker 2: How are they making sense of the world right using humor?

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Speaker 2: So I did a lot of study on Ray in particular,

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Speaker 2: and then I had a focus group that I called

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Speaker 2: my den right, the den Dialogues. So I got my

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Speaker 2: own black women group together friendship circle where we were

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Speaker 2: able to actually watch the television show and then code

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Speaker 2: what that looks like. So are we laughing at the

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Speaker 2: same things. If I'm gonna jump out and say that

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Speaker 2: black women's humor exists, are we doing it versus is

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Speaker 2: this what we just see on media or on television.

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Speaker 2: So there was a lot of work around that and

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Speaker 2: we got to laugh. So I got to do fun

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Speaker 2: research and research that was really authentic to me. One

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Speaker 2: of the key findings though, that I saw was the

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Speaker 2: ways that black women often used humor to talk through

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Speaker 2: some of the oppressions that they faced. So it could

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Speaker 2: be racism, it could be sexism, agism, but it was

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Speaker 2: the way that we told the stories to each other.

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Speaker 2: Where we inserted humor, We've retold the stories. We were

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Speaker 2: the characters right in all of these stories. That really

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Speaker 2: made me think about the ways that we use humor

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Speaker 2: in telling our stories. And that is so innate that

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Speaker 2: it just happens. Right, we're storytellers, and we just continue

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Speaker 2: to tell these stories and use humor at every part

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Speaker 2: of the way, even when we thought we should be crying.

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Speaker 2: There was a moment where we are literally laughing and

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Speaker 2: crying at some pretty serious things. But the ways that

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Speaker 2: we were able to handle that was through the humor.

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Speaker 1: I love that, doctor Horne, and I love how much

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Speaker 1: black women's work often like builds on one another. So

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Speaker 1: I released my first book, Sisterhood Heals last year and

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Speaker 1: talked about some of the themes that happen in women's

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Speaker 1: therapy groups, and humor was one of them, right, And

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Speaker 1: so I love that you also found that indio work.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if you could talk about like that

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Speaker 1: line between how Black women use humor and sometimes what

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Speaker 1: people would maybe say inappropriate times, right like we are

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Speaker 1: often laughing telling a very traumatic story. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that and what you found from

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Speaker 1: your work?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And what I really love is that seems to

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Speaker 2: be a thread and a lot of the work there

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Speaker 2: and all the disciplines. So I knew we were onto

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Speaker 2: something right, because it is important there's this moment where

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Speaker 2: to speak what you were talking about this idea called

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Speaker 2: chorl speech, where even in the story, even if it

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Speaker 2: didn't happen to us, we could finish the story. Right.

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Speaker 2: So if there's a moment where there's a word that

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Speaker 2: we know was coming and we all say it together

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Speaker 2: and we bust out laughing that way, right, and we're

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Speaker 2: sort of now taking on each other's stories and we're

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Speaker 2: sharing in that collective right, that consciousness there. But there

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Speaker 2: are some moments where we do tend to laugh when

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Speaker 2: we should not, right, But I think even that is

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Speaker 2: a simple way to sort of cope or relieve tension.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So one of those really big ways that black women

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Speaker 2: in particular and other people of color relieve tension is

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Speaker 2: through laughter. So we get the nervous laughter where it's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you a really rough story, but my face

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Speaker 2: says that it's not, and we sort of are easing

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Speaker 2: our way out of that. And that's sort of a

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Speaker 2: tool for us, right where for the person hearing it,

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Speaker 2: they're laughing because now they're releasing that tension from that

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Speaker 2: dangerous situation. So to go back to the story about

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Speaker 2: me born laughing, probably was more so that there was

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Speaker 2: too much anesthesia, and I came out with too much anesthesia.

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Speaker 2: So then the story that we tell to make it

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Speaker 2: more palatable is that's our airka and she was born laughing,

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Speaker 2: not you were over medicated, ma'am so. And there's a

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Speaker 2: reason for that. So I think there is that shift

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Speaker 2: that we see with humor in those spaces where it

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Speaker 2: is a very fine line between the things that we

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Speaker 2: take serious and the things that we make light of

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Speaker 2: because we understand the seriousness of a situation, right.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned already that you chose Insecure as the

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Speaker 1: foundation of your work for this research. I'm wondering what

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Speaker 1: inspired that choice in particular, and if there were other

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Speaker 1: media that you were also examining as a part of

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Speaker 1: this work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So I got a lot

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Speaker 2: of pushback for choosing to study a piece of media,

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Speaker 2: so I make a larger claim. So I consider myself

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Speaker 2: an older millennium. Okay, I've seen some things, and I've

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Speaker 2: been on the creation of things that have been taken

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Speaker 2: and made better, like some of the Internet pieces, right,

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Speaker 2: And I really looked at Insecure and Usury in particular

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Speaker 2: because there is a pivot where we see in media

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Speaker 2: this awkward black girl, and of course that's what she

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Speaker 2: was known for first, but we've seen awkward black girls

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Speaker 2: through time and media, but they tend to disappear. So

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Speaker 2: I think about Freddie Brooks right from a different world.

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Speaker 2: Even Carleton on Fresh Prince of be Layer could be

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Speaker 2: considered awkward according to everybody else, but those characters didn't

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Speaker 2: last long. But what I appreciated about Isa Ray and

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Speaker 2: Insecure was that for this group, they represent it sort

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Speaker 2: of just the everyday average Black girl, and it's somebody

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Speaker 2: who is awkward, somebody who is supposed to have it

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Speaker 2: together but isn't it very much in that millennial space

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Speaker 2: where you're overachieving, but you're underachieving at the same time

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Speaker 2: because of that opportunity and success that you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: have versus the realities of the situation where you just

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Speaker 2: don't have it figured out. So I chose Insecure one.

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Speaker 2: It's a friendship group, and I think to see black

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Speaker 2: women's humor in particular, to see how it manifests, you

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Speaker 2: have to see it, and it's collective, so there is

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Speaker 2: sort of this black female consciousness that even if you

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Speaker 2: aren't funny, there are funny moments within your group that

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Speaker 2: you are easily able to recognize. So she was a

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Speaker 2: really good part I thought about it, and I also

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Speaker 2: compared girlfriends right, so looking at Jones character, looking at

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Speaker 2: Tony's characters, and then other sort of ensemble casts living

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Speaker 2: single I would be remiss if I didn't mention them.

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Speaker 2: But I think living Single was probably that one group

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Speaker 2: that we can all identify with, regardless of generation, regardless

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Speaker 2: of age, that we know that group and we know

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Speaker 2: that friendship. So friendship and humor were really connected for me.

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Speaker 2: That erhard.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can see more about the pushback

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Speaker 1: you got from using media, like why do you think

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Speaker 1: there was pushback around that?

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Speaker 2: It was really interesting. I got a lot of pushback

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Speaker 2: about why not stand up comedy and why sitcoms? I

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Speaker 2: have to get over the hurdle of tell me a

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Speaker 2: joke syndrome. So once people hear you doing research on humor,

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Speaker 2: then like, okay, tell me a joke. I don't know jokes.

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Speaker 2: I'm not funny that way. I'm not stand up funny,

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Speaker 2: but I'm conversationally witty, is what I like to say.

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Speaker 2: So I think a lot of times there was pushback

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Speaker 2: because people really wanted punchline joke, punchline joke, where like

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Speaker 2: Isaray and like those other ensemble casts, it is very

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Speaker 2: much situational humor. When I'm looking at poking fun and

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Speaker 2: looking at the everyday life of people, and that's where

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Speaker 2: we really get authentic humor from, especially with black women.

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Speaker 1: As you were talking, I was wondering, of course everything

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Speaker 1: is like thinly veiled racism. It feels like right, but

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Speaker 1: that even feels like an artifact of not seeing black

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Speaker 1: women as funny. Beyond being stand up. There is no

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Speaker 1: humor in the everyday ness of black girls.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I even see sort of the everyday nests

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Speaker 2: even in little girls. So one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I like to look at. And I always have a

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Speaker 2: very complicated relationship with the term sas. So I say

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Speaker 2: sadly even in my dissertation, and it's the title because

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Speaker 2: that seems more legible to people when we think about

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Speaker 2: girls who are experimenting and testing boundaries of what's funny

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Speaker 2: and what isn't. So we have the term woman issue

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Speaker 2: you acting to grow, So that idea of sas sort

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Speaker 2: of pushes that boundary. But it is it's a ligible

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Speaker 2: form of black woman's humor that we start to see

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Speaker 2: even in childhood. I have a niece right now who

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Speaker 2: was leaving me voicemails and messages telling me to wake

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Speaker 2: up because I didn't it was too early in the morning,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, why are you still sleeping? And it's

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Speaker 2: sort of this sass here and she's like, now you

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Speaker 2: know better. I don't know better. I would like to

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Speaker 2: be sleep. So there's that sas and that humor even

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Speaker 2: at that level that we see even in our Black Girls.

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Speaker 2: M M.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first a

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Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.

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Speaker 3: I have not stopped listening to not Like Us the

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Speaker 3: Kendrick Lamarts. As someone who really does love hip hop,

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Speaker 3: I have kind of been checked out of this beef,

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Speaker 3: like I know what goes on because of social media.

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Speaker 3: But then I would see the videos or like the

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Speaker 3: memes from Not Like Us and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 3: I need to listen, and now I will listen to that.

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Speaker 2: Song on a loop.

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Speaker 3: I'm not tired of it, but I'm over indexing on it.

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Speaker 3: I need to space it out. What's so crazy is

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Speaker 3: I was about to say the same thing. Euphoria and

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Speaker 3: not Like Us are both like on my replay, especially Euphoria.

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Speaker 3: I almost know all the lyrics Euphoria and that's like

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Speaker 3: a six minute song. Yeah, I think I know all

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Speaker 3: the lyrics to not Like Us?

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I definitely am not all the way caught

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Speaker 1: up on like how we got to this place. I

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Speaker 1: have been also enjoying Not Like Us though, but I

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Speaker 1: also think I just like DJ Mustard's beats, and so

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Speaker 1: I think most songs that he produces I typically am

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Speaker 1: going to enjoy. But Not Like Us definitely is the

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Speaker 1: favorite song of this whole beef.

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Speaker 2: That we have going on.

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Speaker 1: So another big part of your work is discovering how

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Speaker 1: humor recodes itself over time. Can you explain that concept

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Speaker 1: to us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So one of the things, again, as I said,

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Speaker 2: I have to get over the hurdle of tell me

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Speaker 2: a joke syndrome. But the other hurdle was actually from

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Speaker 2: one of my participants, which is a really great friend

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Speaker 2: of mine, where she was like, but black women's humor

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Speaker 2: is sacred, and I don't want people in my business,

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Speaker 2: which is true. I was taken aback at first, but

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Speaker 2: I'm like, it's a really fair thing to say. There

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Speaker 2: is something to say when we label a thing. So

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Speaker 2: once we label it, then other people can take it

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Speaker 2: and shape it how they want to or misshape it,

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Speaker 2: and it's misunderstood in these ways. So I had to

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Speaker 2: sit back and think about the ways that I too

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Speaker 2: thought that black women's humor was a sacred space, but

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Speaker 2: also realized that humor in general has the ability to

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Speaker 2: recode itself. So if we're thinking about black humor in particular,

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Speaker 2: we're still thinking about the ways that people played the

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Speaker 2: dozens in Africa, right, or the your Mama jokes that

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Speaker 2: people will have. Now, black humor has gone through the

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Speaker 2: Middle Passage, it has gone through slavery, it has gone

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Speaker 2: through all of these pivotal moments in history, and it's

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Speaker 2: able to recode because we can recode language. So we

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Speaker 2: look at the things that we find funny now we

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Speaker 2: didn't find sixty years ago, we didn't find funny seventy

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Speaker 2: years ago. Controversial as it is for many, Dave Chappelle

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Speaker 2: is one where sometimes people argue that he didn't grow

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Speaker 2: with his audience. So we do find that it's recoding

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Speaker 2: in the ways that we use language, but also in

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Speaker 2: the ways that people are now sort of relearning what

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Speaker 2: it means to be human and how they're using language

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Speaker 2: and humor to do those pieces. So just because we

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Speaker 2: did it on the surface, and maybe it has been

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Speaker 2: taken or co opted, we also get to be the

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Speaker 2: gatekeepers for lack of better words in how we use that.

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Speaker 2: I think about the dictionary, right, So again, when bling

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Speaker 2: became part of the dictionary, we knew we weren't using

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Speaker 2: it anymore. Right. So, it's the very same thing with

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Speaker 2: black humor. Once you start to label it and once

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Speaker 2: you start to put it into the mainstream as that

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Speaker 2: public facing humor, than it recodes and sort of is

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Speaker 2: like we've moved on. You just got there a little later.

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Speaker 2: So we can pick about itself in some different ways.

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Speaker 2: And I think black women are able to use that

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Speaker 2: as a tool in some positive ways. Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate the friend

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Speaker 1: pushing back, right because I think I felt some of

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Speaker 1: that even in writing about sisterhood, that it feels like

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Speaker 1: it is very sacred, and like, do I want to

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Speaker 1: put this all out there for people to read who

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Speaker 1: may not be Black women? And I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: seeing some of that same conversation. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you know that there's a black Twitter series that's happening

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Speaker 1: on Hulu later this month, and there's been some of

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Speaker 1: this conversation of well, why are we sharing this? Are

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Speaker 1: we not doing enough with gatekeeping, and I also feel

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Speaker 1: like documenting our stories and our experiences also legitimizes it.

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Speaker 1: Right to have it in an academic text leads some

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Speaker 1: credibility to it. So I wonder if you have more

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Speaker 1: thoughts to share about what's the line between gatekeeping and

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Speaker 1: sharing and legitimizing some of black people's experiences.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been thinking about this one a lot. I'm

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Speaker 2: actually in the middle of creating a digital humanities course

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Speaker 2: around African American humor in particular and what happens when

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Speaker 2: we make African American humor or Black humor legible to

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Speaker 2: all people. But I think one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think about is the ways that at this level,

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Speaker 2: black culture and Black humor has become popular culture in

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Speaker 2: the ways that we're seeing colloquialisms not turn into coquialisms anymore,

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Speaker 2: or we're seeing just with the advent of increased social media,

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Speaker 2: that popular culture is popular culture regardless of the originating culture, right.

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Speaker 2: And I think for me, in studying humor and academic spaces,

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Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think there is a little

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Speaker 2: bit of cataloging these experiences or these storytelling moments, but

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Speaker 2: also in the ways that we can still do so authentically,

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Speaker 2: where other people are writing about black women or sisterhood

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Speaker 2: or sister circles that don't look like us, and they

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Speaker 2: get all the accolades for writing about us when we

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Speaker 2: can't write about us. So for me, I think there's

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Speaker 2: a different level of responsibility that's connected to this. So

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Speaker 2: when my friend have the pushback, I took it pretty seriously,

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Speaker 2: because again, you want to make sure the space is

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Speaker 2: safe for the people that you're working with, but also

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Speaker 2: there are more implications once more eyes are set on

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Speaker 2: something like humor. So there is this moment where I

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Speaker 2: do wish we would gate keep a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: I do see the importance of having responsible people tell

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Speaker 2: authentic stories. And I think I'm always on the side

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Speaker 2: of being responsible and doing especially research on black people

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Speaker 2: in the academy, because there are lots of people doing

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Speaker 2: research on black people who are not the site Black

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Speaker 2: women movement. We have to still push those narratives because

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Speaker 2: there's so much nuance in those as well. So I

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Speaker 2: think the nuance is important, but I also think we

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Speaker 2: need to still have some protections and that authenticity of

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Speaker 2: telling somebody's story, so we're still needed in those spaces

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Speaker 2: even when it doesn't always feel good in the space,

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Speaker 2: right right.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. So you

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Speaker 1: shared a little earlier how even in your findings, you

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Speaker 1: found that black women use humor to navigate oppressive systems

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Speaker 1: and oppressive situations. Can you say a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about how historically black women have used humor in that way.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. So. One of the things that I love is

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Speaker 2: that to find black women's humor, you just have to

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Speaker 2: live a little You got to walk outside a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But you also have to pay attention to the people

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Speaker 2: we're not paying attention to, right And for black women,

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Speaker 2: for a long time, they weren't being paid attention to,

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Speaker 2: so they had free reign on how to express their emotions,

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Speaker 2: even when it wasn't always considered the best way to

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Speaker 2: express those emotions. So I go back and think about

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Speaker 2: people like sir journal Truth right, who is writing this

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Speaker 2: speech about ain't our women and fighting for rights for

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Speaker 2: black men to vote. But she's also having this moment

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Speaker 2: where the humor for her is steeped in irony, where

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, I'm a woman too, but y'all want

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Speaker 2: me to tell this land and do these things. But

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Speaker 2: y'all said, I was a woman, and y'all was like,

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Speaker 2: and it's this moment where we have those sort of

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Speaker 2: pieces come out here. There are moments in the sixties

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Speaker 2: right where we have people like Mom's Maybley, who then

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Speaker 2: is at the time a young woman portraying an older

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Speaker 2: black woman. And if we know anything about older black women,

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Speaker 2: we give them all the difference. They can say whatever

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Speaker 2: they want to, good or bad, and they're able to

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Speaker 2: tell the truth.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So she's telling the truth to white audiences playing an

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Speaker 2: older woman who knows that she's going to be respected

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Speaker 2: as that performance of older women, and we see her

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Speaker 2: then dismantle this male dominated comedy. So we see her

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Speaker 2: sort of break through these walls and these barriers, and

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Speaker 2: she becomes one of the first black women to perform

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Speaker 2: at the White House, if not the very first in

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Speaker 2: comedy to do so, as she uses humor to break

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Speaker 2: those things down. But my favorite example is one from

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Speaker 2: the movie The Help. Now I've got a love hate

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Speaker 2: relationship with The Help, the movie and the book. But

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Speaker 2: in The Help, there is a scene where Yola Davis

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Speaker 2: and Octavia Spencer are in a kitchen and they're making

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Speaker 2: fun of the people they're working for about the toilet

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Speaker 2: and toilet paper, and I think I Tavia Spencer was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'll just take my own toilet paper. They're not gonna know,

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Speaker 2: and they're laughing at this situation, but they're using humor

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Speaker 2: to make fun of the larger oppression of Everybody has functions, function, function,

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Speaker 2: So they're having this moment here where even if they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be seen as less than in these moments

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Speaker 2: of servitude, they're using their humor to express the ways

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Speaker 2: that they are superior to all of this because they

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Speaker 2: know that this type of oppression doesn't make sense. And

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Speaker 2: I think those are the moments that we see a

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Speaker 2: lot of Black women shine in that everyday realm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I wonder if you could talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about what makes black women funny in a

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Speaker 1: way that is unique to us.

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Speaker 2: I always think about black humor in the ways that

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Speaker 2: for people, black humor and black women's humor specifically is

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Speaker 2: the most replicated but gets the least credit. So we

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Speaker 2: think about the ways that our comedians always go in

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Speaker 2: playing a woman, right, and that's a lot of big

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Speaker 2: research and a lot of things with that. So you

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Speaker 2: have somebody like Martin or you have other people who

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Speaker 2: are representing black women, because people can replicate that. So

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Speaker 2: I think what makes it you need for us is

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Speaker 2: the way that it's nuanced. It is very much so

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Speaker 2: the place where you can say things. But but I

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Speaker 2: guess I would call it shape today. I think it's

436
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: an overused term, but there is a way that you

437
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: can signify without So one of the key identifiers for

438
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: me is this term signifying where your face may say

439
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 2: one thing, but you can't trust the words. So if

440
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: I tell my students, you got a F minus today

441
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: and I'm smiling, and they're like, which one do I believe?

442
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 2: So if I'm smiling, it usually means you should get

443
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: out of my face, but you didn't get an F minus.

444
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: But it's sort of that moment where there was a

445
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: shift and there is a double or triple play with

446
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: black women that I think is a really key indicator.

447
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: But even to understand that and the way it recodes

448
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: is you have to know the in group humor first,

449
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: and it is very much in group, and you have

450
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: to know sort of the rules at play. So when

451
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: people don't understand the rules or the inner working completely,

452
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: we get a lot of people falter with that. So

453
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: I think of Andy Cohen and Bravo when I look

454
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: at these reunions, and Andy Cohen is one who can

455
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: sort of figure out the end group, but always has

456
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: a misstep when he doesn't realize the situation is serious

457
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: around him. He just thinks it's fun shade or vice versa.

458
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: So you still have to know what the end group

459
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: is talking about and how that works among black women.

460
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: And they may not tell you. They may have given

461
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: him limited access, but enough to know that he should

462
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: probably be quiet and let us talk. Yeah, yeah, I

463
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: think this is it's a big one for black women. Yeah.

464
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: Like, as I'm listening to you talk, I mean, there

465
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: was never any opportunity where somebody in my family sat

466
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: me down and said, like, this is how black women

467
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: joke with one another. And even as you shared about

468
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: your niece, how like, just very early on, you pick

469
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: up some that can you talk a little bit about

470
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: like how this is passed on generation? Like how is

471
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: black women's humor transmitted?

472
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in the ways that much of your

473
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: research right was sisterhood. It isn't the ways we pass

474
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: down stories or the ways that we observe the women

475
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: around us tell their stories right. So for me it

476
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: was my mom and my aunts and my grandmother's and

477
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: they would just say like random things that didn't make

478
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: sense at the time. So when I moved out of

479
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: the house, my mother said to me, don't let life happen.

480
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: I was like, what is she talking about? But for her,

481
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: don't let life happen. Man, don't get pregnant and come

482
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: back here two days late, like you know, things like that.

483
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: So there are small quips or things that people will say,

484
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: and younger generations they pick up on those. So it's

485
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: very much part of this storytelling or this oral tradition

486
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 2: that we see coming from African cultures and coming and

487
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: moving and growing with us as black women. So we

488
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: look at the ways we tell our stories or the

489
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: games that we play, so even down to the hand

490
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: clapping games and things that we don't see as much,

491
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: but there is still a lot of humor and just

492
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: in those that we get to pass down to other

493
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 2: generations and future generations. So I teach college students right now,

494
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 2: and they're always telling me the things that are cool

495
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: or not right, because in my mind, I'm cooler than

496
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: what I am, and my students will remind me very quickly.

497
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: They're like, it's giving a millennial And I said, I

498
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: can't know that was a bad thing, but there is

499
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: a moment like there's a thing where they'll put you

500
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: in your place. Right. Humor has that corrective function. So

501
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: as we're passing down these stories, and it's a really

502
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: great tool to you to sort of start to learn

503
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: in a low stakes environment what advocacy looks like. So

504
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: if you can joke with somebody, you can figure out

505
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: your boundaries in just then you're more apt to figure

506
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 2: out what your boundaries are out of just because you

507
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: know when not to go too far or when things

508
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: have gone too far.

509
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 1: From our conversation after the break, So, doctor Horn, you

510
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: just mentioned and now I'm remembering, it does not feel

511
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: like little girls and like children are playing these hand

512
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: games anymore. Because even I'm thinking about my own kids,

513
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: like they're playing Nintendo Switch right, like they're not doing

514
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: these things. And so I wonder if any in any

515
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: of your work you found that there is a breakdown

516
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: in some of these things being passed on, like humor,

517
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: because kids are not doing like those kinds of things anymore.

518
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, as I'm working through some of the ideas, it

519
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: does seem to be that again in that recoding, it

520
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: just means we learn new language, right, or we figure

521
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: out where we're gonna to reach people. So what I

522
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: see now our children, if they're not watching people play

523
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: games on YouTube, because they do that a lot, they

524
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: watch people unbox and do those things, but they are

525
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 2: still looking at us, right, So I laugh at one

526
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: of the challenges that I shouldn't laugh at, where you

527
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: leave the children alone and they curse, right, Like I

528
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: should laugh at that, like I know better, But at

529
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: a certain point there's a moment where you're like, oh,

530
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: they're learning behaviors, right. And I think humor can be

531
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 2: something that we don't necessarily teach with in humor, but

532
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: I think there are learned responses to how we interact

533
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: with each other in the world. So I think with

534
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: things like social media or YouTube, or even the television

535
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: shows that people watch. I think about Blue Eye or

536
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: Peppa Pig, Right, there's humor there. Childhood humor is clumsy, right,

537
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: and it's because they're trying to figure out the world.

538
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: So you know when Peppa Pig is mad at this

539
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: land for learning how to whistle, and she doesn't and

540
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 2: hangs up on her. We laugh and kids laugh at

541
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: that because they were like, she was mean, not it

542
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: was funny, but she just she did something that I

543
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: didn't like, so she hung up. So I think there

544
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: are moments where we get those pieces of play, but

545
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: it isn't as physical as I think it used to be.

546
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: But I think they're very much still playing with testing boundaries.

547
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: M M for sure. For sure. So how have you

548
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: seen black women use humor to form and build community?

549
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: So humor and friendship is the gift in the curse, right.

550
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: So I go back to Insecure a little where I

551
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: believe it's season maybe three, where they have this friendship

552
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: breakdown and they're all going in different directions. I think

553
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: they're in Malibu and they're turning against each other, and

554
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: they're using the humor that we loved in their friendship

555
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: circle to turn against the friendship circle, right, And I

556
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: think some of the ways we see just black women

557
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: navigate these spaces is humor is the default because it's uncomfortable.

558
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: So when you hurt my feelings, sometimes it's more comfortable

559
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: to say, well, I'm gonna hurt your feelings in shade, right,

560
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: Because that's what's represented in media than to have those

561
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: authentic conversations in those spaces to talk. But we definitely

562
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: see it in friendship groups. We know the friendship circles,

563
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: Like I'm the peacemaker in the friendship group. Sometimes I

564
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: have a friend who calls me Switzerland, so I'm super

565
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: neutral and all the things. So there is that place

566
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: where you laugh and you make jokes with each other,

567
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: but it's also a trusting part. So I trust you

568
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: enough that you won't hurt my feelings in just or

569
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: you won't embarrass me in just Nobody needs to be

570
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: the butt of the joke, but there is a safe

571
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: way to sort of have these humorous moments. We see

572
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 2: the community building with the side jokes right that people have.

573
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: You're just trying to foster that connectedness is what really

574
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: people look for most, and those shared experiences. So even

575
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: if you are not part of the end group all

576
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: the time, you can still experience a little bit of

577
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: that humor. It makes me think of when we see

578
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: someone in the grocery store and there's like a kid

579
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: screaming or whatever they're doing, and everybody and the grocery store

580
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: is tired, and they just give the look like I know,

581
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: like that in itself is that humor moment and you

582
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: just walk away, shake your head and laugh, but you

583
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: know that something is going on. So there is that

584
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: way that black women definitely are able to connect with

585
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: each other at all facets of life.

586
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Can you say more of me? Because a

587
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: part of your dissertation title was also about the knowing

588
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: glances that you just talked about, can you say more

589
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: about those nonverbal ways that humor is shared.

590
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: So I definitely wear all of my things on my face,

591
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: so I'm trying very hard, you know, to look like this.

592
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: I look like this all the time. This is my

593
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: mad face too. But there's very much for black humor

594
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: in general. So this is not gender specific at all,

595
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: but that for humor and for black humor in particular,

596
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: it is very much nonverbal as much as it is verbal.

597
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: And a lot of times those knowing glances are things like, yeah,

598
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: you see what happened over there. And you can just

599
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: be in a room and one the community or the

600
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: n group is saying this sounds ridiculous, and all you

601
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: have to do is just look right and you know

602
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: that the situation is ridiculous. A lot of times in

603
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: research when talking about sort of workplace microaggressions or being

604
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: the only black person in sort of white centered spaces,

605
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: and you find that one and you're like, oh, we're here,

606
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: and you look at each other and you're like, yeah,

607
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm over here too, and you just know that is

608
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: that sense of community as well. So knowing that something

609
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: is going on or something is happening here and the

610
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: humor is that unspoken truth is what that knowing glances.

611
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: So when I think about black humar, I also think

612
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: it is pretty physical, right, So there's a lot of

613
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: flapping each other and like getting up and running around

614
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: and those kinds of things. Can you talk about any

615
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: of that that you have found in your work? What

616
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: adds that physical piece to it?

617
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: I wish I had an academic answer, but the Erica answer,

618
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: not the Doctor Horror answer, is very much. We just

619
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: we're a touchy group, okay. And there is a there

620
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: is an old piece I think from Dormtainment, a comedy,

621
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: and they did a satire on National Geographic about black laughter,

622
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: and the joke was that some people build community when

623
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: they laugh, and then some people create space when they laugh.

624
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: So it's a group of guys and they all laugh

625
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: and then running different directions cracking up. And I think

626
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 2: for a lot of it, it is just the ways

627
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: that because we come from oral traditions, that we do

628
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: things physically right. So to remember the moment, you need

629
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 2: to tell the story in a way that people will

630
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: come back to or they'll remember and you can remember

631
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: when you ran out of there laughing, or you sort

632
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: of come closer together, like let me slap her on

633
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: the shoulder or the back and be like that was

634
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: funny and we shared a moment together. So is that

635
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: community piece? Now I'm gonna throw your head back laughter,

636
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to work on that. I'm gonna show

637
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 2: a whole neck when I laugh, and my mouth will

638
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: be very very wide. I'm not a runner when I laugh,

639
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: but I definitely know groups of students who do when

640
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 2: they're running different directions. I think when you see joy

641
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: in that way, you can't help but think that the

642
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: laughter is also contagious, and it's just another way to

643
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: build that community in that group.

644
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: Right right, So, doctor Hart, I wonder if you could

645
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: share some strategies. You know, it definitely feels like there's

646
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: always so much going on in the world. You can't

647
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: turn on the news without some sad and tragic story.

648
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: What would you say about how to like infuse humor

649
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: into our lives even when things feel really difficult.

650
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 2: One, you have to give your time space to feel

651
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: the feelings, right, And although we talk about humor as

652
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: that coping mechanism, that's the oldest way that we talk

653
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: through humor. It is just a tool for the moment, right,

654
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: It is still a temporary sort of fix. And sometimes

655
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 2: you have to allow yourself to feel the feelings and

656
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: then you get to the humor part, so you got

657
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 2: to sit with it. But a lot of times for me, again,

658
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: I know people with like seasonal depression in those pieces

659
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 2: where it may be harder to find the humor in situations.

660
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: But I do think there are moments where it sounds cliche, right,

661
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: but you sort of have to build that optimism or

662
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: create that optimism in your circles or in whatever your

663
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: groups are. So there's a ways to infuse humor to

664
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 2: sort of get us through those really hard times. I'm

665
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: trying to work through a piece around humor and grief

666
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: right now and the ways that they are very connected

667
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: to each other. But the ways that when we look

668
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: at the increased visibility of police brutalion, those pieces, we

669
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: were still able to laugh despite the situation, but what

670
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: we were laughing at was very different. So in some

671
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: ways we were laughing to keep from crying, right, to

672
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: do the cliche, but in other ways we were laughing

673
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: to sort of point out that oppression or that ridiculousness there.

674
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: I think of Nisi Nash had the satire around a

675
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: commercial called the one eight hundred White Fear, and it's

676
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: this whole thing like you call your local black person

677
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: to see if are you calling the police inappropriate way? Right?

678
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: Are you doing these things? So I think at the

679
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: larger level, we do just have to sort of create

680
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: those moments of optimism, even if they may be temporary.

681
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: But it is definitely still a coping strategy and a

682
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: coping mechanism. But it is a tool, right, and it

683
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: shouldn't be the only thing that we do, but I

684
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: do think it is a tool that can help you through.

685
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: So what kinds of things make you laugh? What are

686
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 1: you turning to when you want a good laugh, whether

687
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: it's media or something else.

688
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: I'm a TV watcher, but I'm not grading papers. I

689
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: watch television. I watch a lot of reality shows. Actually

690
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 2: music for me, I laugh at a lot of music.

691
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: So of course right now we're listening to Drake and

692
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: Kendrick Lamar, and more so than the music of it,

693
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: we're reading Twitter like we're reading those parts, and that's

694
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: the humor. The humor is in our responses to what's

695
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: happening with that. So that's been keeping me on my

696
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 2: toes these days. I feel like there's an update every

697
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: five minute. But a lot of those things helped me

698
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: out definitely. It's still staying with the friend groups. So

699
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: we just finished up a semester and now graduation with Saturday,

700
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: so trying to find times to celebrate but also decompressed.

701
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: So get with friends, catch up those things. I laugh

702
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: at everything, which is partly why my humor is so

703
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 2: authentic to me is that I think this is something

704
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 2: that's important and I love the ways that for black

705
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: women were not always considered joyful. So even in the

706
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 2: early parts of my research, I just did a quick

707
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: Google search on black women and it was just and

708
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: it was an image search, and it was just a

709
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: lot of frowns, a lot of powerhouse poses, but there

710
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: was nothing that really just said joy, right or laughter,

711
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: and we're so much more than yes, a powerhouse post

712
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: because we can be powerful right, and there's nothing wrong

713
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: with those pieces, but it was the way that you

714
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: need some joy and we need just and we need

715
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 2: to figure out to dismantle some of the Black Superwoman

716
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: kind of tropes. Is that you need a moment where

717
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: you can let your hair down, you can take your

718
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: cape off and just be. And I think this is

719
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: a lot of the reasons why humor is so important

720
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: for me is you just need a space to land

721
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: and just to laugh and lay or sit in those moments.

722
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. So where can we

723
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: stay connected with you, Doctor Horn? What is your website

724
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

725
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 2: Well, Doctor Joy, I'm a little new to the games,

726
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: but I'm an Instagram user, so you can find me

727
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: at books and Giggles, Books, Underscore and Giggles there. So

728
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: that's sort of my semi professional parts for students and

729
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 2: for me to see where I'm going, what I'm researching. Again,

730
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: I'm silly. What means I'm reposting? Usually I repost the

731
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: memes that my students create for me, So at the

732
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: end of their classes, they get to create memes about

733
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: the experience in a humor class that I taught, and

734
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: half of them are about me, unfortunately, and fortunately I

735
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: raised them right, So you know, I'm always reposting those.

736
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 2: But yes, I'm definitely getting out there. I just published

737
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: a chapter on Insecure and Atlanta so called black Awkwardness,

738
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: so that is coming out there. Those are interested in

739
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: reading those pieces. So I'm very much in the academic

740
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: space right now, trying to bridge the gap between the

741
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 2: academic and the person.

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: Well, this is your foray, Dr Horne, so you would

743
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: be doing much more of it. I feel like, thank

744
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: you for that.

745
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

746
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for spending some time with

747
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: us today. I really appreciate it.

748
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

749
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I'm so glad doctor Horne was able to share

750
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: her exercise with us today. To learn more about her

751
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: and her work, be sure to visit the show notes

752
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com es three fifty nine,

753
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text this episode to two of

754
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: your girls right now. If you're looking for a therapists

755
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for

756
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

757
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be a community

758
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

759
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet

760
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: designed just for black women. You can join us at

761
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was

762
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done

763
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

764
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

765
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: with you all real soon.

766
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: What's