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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are in a vertice

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Speaker 1: watch in the case of this state versus socialite Gillaine Maxwell.

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Speaker 1: She's facing about seventy years behind bars for what sex

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Speaker 1: trafficking little girls. That's right. She comes over the pond,

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Speaker 1: hooks up with a multi millionaire Jeffrey Epstein, and starts

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Speaker 1: procuring young girls for him under the guise of massages,

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Speaker 1: raping and other sex attacks on the girls. Right now,

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Speaker 1: this case is in the hands of a jury. First

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Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at CNBC.

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Speaker 1: Maxwell was given about an hour to decide if she

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Speaker 1: wanted to take the stand in her own defense. She've

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Speaker 1: been tally stood up and told the judge, your honor.

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Speaker 1: The government has not proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 1: and so there is no reason for me to testify.

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Speaker 1: The defense wrapped up its portion of the case this

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Speaker 1: afternoon after calling witnesses over the last two days. Today,

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Speaker 1: one of those witnesses included one of Jeffrey Epstein's former

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Speaker 1: girlfriends Ava Dubin, who remained a long lifetime friend. She

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Speaker 1: testified she never saw Epstein engage in inappropriate conduct with

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Speaker 1: a minor. The defense has repeatedly called into question the

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Speaker 1: memories of the four alleged victims in this case, and

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Speaker 1: yesterday they called a memory expert to the stand. She

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Speaker 1: testified that memories can be fragile and that they can

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Speaker 1: be manipulated. In cross examination, the prosecution pointed out that

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Speaker 1: out of the one hundred and fifty criminal cases that

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Speaker 1: this expert has testified, all but one have been for

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Speaker 1: the side of the defense. Other witnesses included former employees

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Speaker 1: who say Maxwell was demanding but well respected and never

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Speaker 1: saw any inappropriate contact between her and any miners. That's

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Speaker 1: interesting because the former butler of Epstein's Palm Beach mansion

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Speaker 1: said he saw many, many, many young girls there, often

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Speaker 1: topless at the pool, and that several of them were

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Speaker 1: under age. That's in direct contradiction to what the defense

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Speaker 1: is bringing on. And you know, I gotta go before

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Speaker 1: I even introduced the guests straight out to longtime friend

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Speaker 1: and colleague Wendy Murphy, former child abuse sex crimes prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: professor regarding sex violence law at New England Law in Boston.

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Speaker 1: You know, Wendy, when they the defense try to say that, well,

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Speaker 1: none of his friends saw any appropriate activity, Well what

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Speaker 1: do you think he's gonna rape a young girl on

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Speaker 1: the living room table, at the coffee table and the dad.

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Speaker 1: Of course, nobody sees it. That's why it is so insidious,

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Speaker 1: is because it happens behind closed doors. Of course they

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Speaker 1: don't see it. Every child master I've ever known, all

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Speaker 1: of his friends are like, why no, yeah, it does happen.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And what a common and ineffective defense tactic

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Speaker 1: to say, well, this person didn't see anything, and this

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Speaker 1: person didn't see anything. If I'm a juror, and this

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Speaker 1: is how my jury jury felt when that kind of

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Speaker 1: argument was made, they literally would say to themselves, well,

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Speaker 1: what difference does it make that that person didn't see anything?

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Speaker 1: That nobody alleged that that person did see something? So

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Speaker 1: who cares that they that they're claiming they didn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not just it's not just that. Of course the crime

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Speaker 1: happens in secret because the guy's trying to cover up

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Speaker 1: what he's doing. Of course it's happening. And yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: not talking about a smash and grab on rodeo drive

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Speaker 1: as they call it. We're talking about child molestation, and

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Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, a very long, long pattern

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Speaker 1: of child molestation by billionaire Jeffrey Epstein and his hinge

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Speaker 1: person perv Yelaye Maxwell. Take a listen to our cut

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Speaker 1: a T and this is Martha Konor was Sky. Prosecution

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Speaker 1: lawyer Alison Moe said Maxwell ran the same playbook again

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Speaker 1: and again. She groomed them. She caused deep and lasting

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Speaker 1: harm to young girls. It's time to hold her accountable.

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Speaker 1: Annie Farmer's experience at Epstein's New Mexico ranch, prosecutors said,

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Speaker 1: was typical of his and Glenn Maxwell's abusing. This picture

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Speaker 1: of her at her high school prom was taken the

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Speaker 1: same month as that trip, when she says Maxwell gave

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Speaker 1: her a sexual massage. Her teenage diaries, in which she

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Speaker 1: writes about being weirded out by Epstein's behavior, evidence says

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Speaker 1: the government of Classic grooming Techniques, to which Maxwell was

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Speaker 1: an accomplice. Laura Meninger delivered the rebuttal for the defense.

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Speaker 1: She said, these accusers had stories to tell about Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 1: and decades later they inserted Glenn Maxwell. They each filed

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Speaker 1: a civil suit, and they took home millions, but their

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Speaker 1: stories have changed dramatically over time. The defences are doing

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Speaker 1: that the now adult, then child molestation victims have changed

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Speaker 1: your story. The only thing that's changed is that now

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Speaker 1: they're being questioned about Gillaine Maxwell very often. When they

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Speaker 1: were questioned at the time, the questioners were asking about

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. Who thought to ask then about Gillaine Maxwell.

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Speaker 1: With me an all start panel to break it down

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Speaker 1: and put it back together again again. We are in

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Speaker 1: a verdict watch here on Crime Stories with me. You

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Speaker 1: just heard her longtime friend and colleague. We're now Attorney

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Speaker 1: Wendy Murphy, doctor Teresa gill highly respected professor's psychology, psychotherapist

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Speaker 1: and author of Women Who Were Sex Abused as Children? Wow,

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Speaker 1: is that not a point today? Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on

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Speaker 1: Amazon and star off another new hit series, Body Bags,

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Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeartRadio, but first to Crime

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Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Jackie Howard. Jackie, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us across all the headlines. It says,

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Speaker 1: if it's the harbinger of doom, a death knell of

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Speaker 1: sorts for the state's case. I'm reading day three deliberations.

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Speaker 1: No verdict that is entirely untrue. Okay. Number one, the

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Speaker 1: first day of deliberations would have been Monday, assuming today

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Speaker 1: is Wednesday, am I okay, good, all right, it's Christmas time.

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Speaker 1: Santa's busy. Day one deliberations was Monday, Jackie Howard. The

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Speaker 1: jury heard closing arguments all day. Then they heard instructions

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Speaker 1: from the judge reading them verbatim, which is required under

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Speaker 1: case law. You can't just addlib the law to the jury.

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Speaker 1: You gotta read it in the black and white. They

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Speaker 1: heard jury instructions to the jury about the law which

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Speaker 1: they are to apply to the of this case. Then

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Speaker 1: by the time they got the case to start deliberations,

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Speaker 1: it was almost the end of the day, Jackie. They

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Speaker 1: went home. So Tuesday, yesterday was really their first full

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Speaker 1: day of deliberations. They left around five pm and they're

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Speaker 1: coming back for day three technically of deliberations today Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct, Jackie? That is correct, Nancy. The Drew

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Speaker 1: will begin deliberating again today, and as you said, their

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Speaker 1: first full day looking at this case. They asked the

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Speaker 1: judge to review testimony from the women who had accused

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Speaker 1: Galne Maxwell of setting them up for sexual encounters with

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Speaker 1: financier Jeffrey Epstein. Now, remember there are four victims that

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Speaker 1: have testified in this case. Only one of those victims

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Speaker 1: came out under her real name, Annie Farmer. And all

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Speaker 1: of these women across, all of these women rather across

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Speaker 1: their testimony, have accused Glene Maxwell of setting them up

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Speaker 1: for sexual abuse. You know, that's really interesting the way

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Speaker 1: you put that, Jackie Harrod, And you're absolutely correct. They're

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Speaker 1: saying that she Gaillie Maxwell quote set them up for

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Speaker 1: sex abuse. Now I like the way you said that, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: because that is common vernacular for what the state is

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Speaker 1: alleging that she procure them. But what the way you

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Speaker 1: said it, I hope the prosecutor said it, just like

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Speaker 1: that Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor, Teresa gil

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Speaker 1: doctor to procure and to groom a young girl. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, what they would do is they

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Speaker 1: would send Gaily Maxwell out to park, they would send

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Speaker 1: her to school playgrounds, and any perpetrator will tell you

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Speaker 1: within fifteen sets and they'll pick their victim. And they

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Speaker 1: picked their victim who looks isolated, who looks alone, who

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Speaker 1: looks like they don't have a group of friends, and

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Speaker 1: what she did is she talked with them. She was kind,

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Speaker 1: she was listened well to them, She had a sense

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Speaker 1: of humor. She brought them to the movies. She asked

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Speaker 1: them about their lives. She asked these women, which mostly

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Speaker 1: were poor, some of them have histories of child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: and she has some water your dreams. And then she

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Speaker 1: promised them that she could help fulfill their dreams. In fact,

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Speaker 1: during the sexual exploitations, part of the discussions as Epstein

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Speaker 1: was abusing them was talking about what their dreams were

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Speaker 1: and how he could make sure that he got those

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Speaker 1: for them. So she befriended them. The one named Jane,

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Speaker 1: she actually said, unlike your older sister. So here we

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Speaker 1: have kids that feel isolated in the world. They feel alone,

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Speaker 1: and she presents herself as somebody who's like the oldest

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Speaker 1: sister that can relate to them in the present and

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Speaker 1: offer them a much better future than they would have

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Speaker 1: if they didn't have her in their life. And so

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Speaker 1: she aligned with them, and then she groomed them and

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Speaker 1: presented them to Jeffrey Epstein to be sexually appeased. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Terisa gil joining me, you know the way you said

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Speaker 1: that almost made me start crying. Just thinking of these

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Speaker 1: young girls. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. We've

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Speaker 1: seen so many child molestation and rape cases and very

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Speaker 1: often we see the pattern the victim. As doctor Gill

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Speaker 1: pointed out, how many seconds you said, fifteen seconds. And

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Speaker 1: there is evidence that Gilly Maxwell would actually troll playgrounds

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Speaker 1: in New York. And in New York the playgrounds are

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Speaker 1: different than they are in many other places in the country.

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Speaker 1: You can be riding along four lanes of traffic one way,

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Speaker 1: the streets are one way there, and right there, across

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Speaker 1: twenty feet a sidewalk would be a chain link fence.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they paint the fence green, but they're right on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the chain link fence. On the

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Speaker 1: other side of the sidewalk is a playground of sorts.

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Speaker 1: It's usually asphalt like. There'll be asphalt with a basketball

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Speaker 1: goal or with park benches or a place for them

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Speaker 1: to kick a ball. You can see the children from

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Speaker 1: the street as you drive by, and there is evidence

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Speaker 1: that Galaine Maxwell will be driving by in a big

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Speaker 1: black limo order the driver to stop and get out

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Speaker 1: and go start talking to a girl she spotted, As

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Speaker 1: doctor Gill said in fifteen seconds they've identified their victim.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, My question to you is, over and

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Speaker 1: over we see the same pattern that the children that

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Speaker 1: are selected to be child rape victims sha molestation victims

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Speaker 1: are the most let me say, fragile, the most vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: They're from a single parent home. The mom is working

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Speaker 1: all day. The mom wants what's best for her child,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't get home till five or six or later

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Speaker 1: at night from work, doesn't know exactly what the child

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Speaker 1: is doing in the afternoons, and relies on the child

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Speaker 1: to tell her. Why is that We see it over

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Speaker 1: and over, Joe Scott, And that's the case here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is Nancy. And you know, one of the striking

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Speaker 1: things about this we keep talking about grooming in this sense, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we think about this from the perspective

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Speaker 1: of violent street crime cases that you and I have

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Speaker 1: talked about and that we've worked, actually, when it involves

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Speaker 1: sexual assaults, we think about somebody hiding in a dark

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Speaker 1: alley and reaching out to somebody and grabbing them and

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Speaker 1: then attacking them. The sexual assault that's you know, and

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Speaker 1: I guess in scientific parlance, is in an acute phase

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Speaker 1: where it's very violent and it's right there, and there's

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Speaker 1: evidence left behind with the grooming, you identify the weakest

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Speaker 1: among the group, those people that are very violent. And

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Speaker 1: you know, the thing about it is, from a forensic standpoint,

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Speaker 1: there's there's no evidence, really physical evidence, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying exactly Hair all these things that we examine.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this long timeline. And that's the thing

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Speaker 1: I'm really worried about here, h and Nancy with this,

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Speaker 1: with this jury, you know, because people want to see

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Speaker 1: hard evidence in criminal cases, and the fact is is

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Speaker 1: that you're not going to have these physical presentations. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to have these scientific outcomes that I commonly

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Speaker 1: look for in these cases. So this is reliant upon this,

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Speaker 1: this this timeline and these stories that are being put forward,

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Speaker 1: this narrative of grooming and how all this takes place. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about the Gallaine Maxwell federal trial going

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Speaker 1: down right now. We are in a verdict watch in

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Speaker 1: the case of the State versus Gilaine Maxwell, a millionaire

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Speaker 1: in her own right, flies across the ocean from Great Britain,

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Speaker 1: where she is educated at the very best schools, rubs

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Speaker 1: elbows with the paushous, most wealthy and educated people in Britain.

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Speaker 1: She comes here after her father's death and latches on

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Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein. What did he see in her? Not

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Speaker 1: only is she very attractive, but with her social graces,

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Speaker 1: her education and her knowledge, her connections to rich and

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Speaker 1: powerful people, she was his ticket to let's just say respectability.

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Speaker 1: But behind that very thin veneer is a woman, according

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Speaker 1: to prosecutors, that procured, got trolled for young girls for

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Speaker 1: Epstein to abuse. Right now, we're in a verdict watch.

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Speaker 1: We are waiting as the jury deliberates this case. Will

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Speaker 1: they fall for the defense tactic that these young girls

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Speaker 1: now grown women, are motivated by money or they quote

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Speaker 1: miss remembered what happened to them? I mean, straight to you.

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Speaker 1: Wendy Murphy, former high profile prosecutor now professor Wendy second verse,

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Speaker 1: same as the first. Please they're claiming, what do all

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Speaker 1: crime victims have to be nuns and priests and virgins?

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Speaker 1: Because if that's true, then we're all in trouble. I

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Speaker 1: think I can speak for everybody here that we're all

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Speaker 1: in trouble if you have to be a nun, a priest,

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Speaker 1: or a virgin Before you're deemed worthy of being a

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Speaker 1: victim in our jurisprudence system, Wendy Murphy Badly. There is

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Speaker 1: there's a culture in these kinds of cases where some

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Speaker 1: jurors might be willing to discredit someone based on how

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Speaker 1: they feel about their lifestyle of their responsibility. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the good news in this case is that the three

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Speaker 1: primary victims who were under age were too young to consent,

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Speaker 1: so we didn't, thankfully, blissfully, we didn't have to hear

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Speaker 1: from the defense about how they did it willingly, and

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Speaker 1: they were responsible for what happened to them because they

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Speaker 1: were children. Let's just talk about it the way that

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Speaker 1: their children. They're not just miners. The fourteen years old

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Speaker 1: as a child. The fourth victim was over the age

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Speaker 1: of consent. She's not involved in any of the direct charges,

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Speaker 1: but she was a corroborative and supportive witness. And the

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Speaker 1: fact is they did have some weaknesses in their testimony.

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Speaker 1: But I never had a case where my witness didn't

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Speaker 1: have some kind of weakness because the witness who always

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Speaker 1: tells the same story time after time is the witness

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Speaker 1: I'm worried about that. Their testimony sounds pat and too perfect.

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Speaker 1: Real witnesses, real victims, sincere honest people don't always get

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Speaker 1: the details perfect. And I think the jurism to understand

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Speaker 1: that here plus come on, all four of them had

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Speaker 1: false memories. I mean, that's the sense witnesses are true.

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Speaker 1: You know they're saying, Wendy Murphy, they're saying miss remembered.

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Speaker 1: I was questioning earlier today on air, is misremembered? Pearl

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Speaker 1: Quelot that up is misremembered? Actually a word? My husband

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Speaker 1: says no. But they're saying that the girl that the

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Speaker 1: ladies now misremembered. All four of them, as you point out,

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Speaker 1: and were motivated by money because some of them tapped

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Speaker 1: into the victims fund. That was great. You know you're

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Speaker 1: in trouble when you have to create a multimillion dollar

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Speaker 1: fund for all the victims you've molested. Crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace take a lisson to the throne. Victim on

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Speaker 1: the stand, This is Erica A two. This is Martha

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Speaker 1: kelner Sky. The further accuser on the stand was a

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Speaker 1: woman testifying under only her first name, Carolyn White. Tears

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Speaker 1: from her face as she told the court that Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein started abusing her aged fourteen, beginning with massagers at

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Speaker 1: his Palm Beach mansion. She also said missus Maxwell had

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Speaker 1: inspected her naked body. Caroline said she felt my boobs, buttocks,

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Speaker 1: and hips and said, you have a great body for

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Speaker 1: mister Epstein and his friend. Caroline told the court she

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Speaker 1: gave Epstein over one hundred massagers, all of which would

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Speaker 1: end in sexual contact. She also claimed she told missus

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Speaker 1: Maxwell about her dysfunctional family life. I told her my

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Speaker 1: mum was an alcoholic, said Caroline. I remember telling her

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Speaker 1: my grandfather molested and raped me from the age of four.

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Speaker 1: And to doctor Teresa gil professors psychology and author of

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Speaker 1: Women who Were Sex Abused as Children, Mothering Resilience and

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Speaker 1: Protecting the next generation. To doctor gil this young girl

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Speaker 1: so vulnerable, her mom an alcoholic single parent home and

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Speaker 1: the grandfather raping her and molesting her sins age four,

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Speaker 1: and she confides that to Epstein. Yet he goes ahead

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Speaker 1: and molests her with the help of Guillaine Maxwell. I

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Speaker 1: mean they both got a burn in hell. There's really

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Speaker 1: no other alternative, guil Well. The interesting thing is when

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Speaker 1: the victim told Gilayne about her history, she said that

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Speaker 1: she smiled the Cheshiquet smile, meaning that she knew that

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Speaker 1: that was a safe person to bring under a wing

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Speaker 1: and to groom and to into Epstein. And she also

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Speaker 1: said that for Epstein, the more uncomfortable and the more

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Speaker 1: damage he saw in you, the more that he enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: So these were predators that had no empathy and that

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Speaker 1: had no conscience, and it took advantage of these girls.

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Speaker 1: And from what I know of working with women who

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Speaker 1: have been sexually abused as children, that it impacts them

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Speaker 1: for all their life. And even my book is about

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Speaker 1: it's not just their life. It impacts It impacts how

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Speaker 1: they take care of their own children, and it interferes

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Speaker 1: with the next generation. So they've done a lot of damage.

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Speaker 1: And my hope is at the court and the jury

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Speaker 1: sees this and she's able to get what she deserves

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Speaker 1: in terms of responsibility for what she's done, you know.

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Speaker 1: To Jackie Hammer, joining US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: you stated that the jury had questions. They came out

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Speaker 1: with questions on three different occasions, and I made copious

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Speaker 1: notes regarding that. What was it about? Ten am, Bear

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Speaker 1: with me, jack I'm digging through my notes okay. At

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Speaker 1: first around ten am yesterday Tuesday, they asked for the

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Speaker 1: transcript regarding any farmer Carolyn and Jane okay. That was

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Speaker 1: at about ten Around three pm, they wanted the interview

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Speaker 1: notes the FBI two thousand and seven interview notes with

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Speaker 1: victim Carolyn and at four thirty the jury asked if

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Speaker 1: they could consider the any farmer testimony. Hold on Jackie

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Speaker 1: to you, Wendy Murphy. They cannot consider any farmer for

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Speaker 1: sex and use because I think she aged out. But

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Speaker 1: the judge told them, Judge Alison Nathan, that they could

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Speaker 1: consider her testimony as far as having girls travel to

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Speaker 1: different locations such as Palm Beach, New York, New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: And a judge said, yes, you can't consider her testimony

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Speaker 1: as it relates to conspiracy. Explain that in a nutshell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the most important witnesses in

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Speaker 1: the sense that she's not part of the charges per se,

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Speaker 1: but she is a corroboration witness. She's someone who, if

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Speaker 1: the jury believes her, her testimony can be used to

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Speaker 1: support and corroborate the testimony of the victims who were

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Speaker 1: underage and are part of the three primary charges. So

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Speaker 1: there are three primary charges involving the three primary victims,

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Speaker 1: and then there are three conspiracy is related to those

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Speaker 1: primary charges. That's where we get the six charges from.

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Speaker 1: But we have four victims, and that's because this fourth victim,

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Speaker 1: although she's not part of the primary charges, is a

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Speaker 1: very important witness who experienced the same kind of behavior

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Speaker 1: and everything she has to testify about. Everything she did

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Speaker 1: testify about is consistent with the pattern of the conspiracy,

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Speaker 1: the pattern of the enticement and the trafficking and the

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Speaker 1: transporting of underage girl. She was a witness, she was

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Speaker 1: also a victim, and so with her testimony is very important.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's to me the idea that the

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Speaker 1: jury is reviewing the victims testimonies. I know some people said, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's good for the defense. I don't agree with that

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Speaker 1: at all. I think one of the reasons juries look

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Speaker 1: at testimony again and again is because they're debating whether

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Speaker 1: one of them said something and someone says, no, I

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Speaker 1: didn't hear that, So they're they're just discussing what they hall.

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Speaker 1: Testimony can be lengthy and complicated, that doesn't mean they

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Speaker 1: have any doubts about what they heard and you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, the money issue is the big one, the

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Speaker 1: big Oh they all got millions of dollars. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: they got the millions of dollars long before the investigation

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Speaker 1: of Maxwell. So that has nothing to do with them

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Speaker 1: wanting to lie. They're not going to back retroactively not

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Speaker 1: get the money or get extra money. That's that's a

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Speaker 1: done deal. And you know, for a defense to characterize

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Speaker 1: delay Maxwell as like, uh, you know, Alice on the

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Speaker 1: Brady but she was just managing the houses that he owned,

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Speaker 1: is so preposterous that I think that turns the jury off.

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Speaker 1: There's no innocent explanation for her role. She got paid

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Speaker 1: thirty million dollars to manage a couple of houses. No,

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Speaker 1: you don't get thirty million dollars to manage a couple

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Speaker 1: of houses. You get thirty million dollars to be a pimp,

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Speaker 1: to be a trafficker, to be a conspirator with Epstein

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Speaker 1: in this massive scheme to abuse and severe really destroy

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Speaker 1: the lives of many, many, many girls, not just these

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Speaker 1: three many. You know, Wendy, I think you're jump in

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what I was going to say is and

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Speaker 1: jump off this. I think Wendy's right. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: like reading the tea leaves. Okay, have any of you

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Speaker 1: seen Harry Potter, because I've seen it a million times.

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Speaker 1: Remember there was the I alwish she could remember her name,

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Speaker 1: the professor that you would she could read the future

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Speaker 1: and should show people a cup of tea leaves, and

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Speaker 1: they were supposed to figure out what it meant. That

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Speaker 1: is what it means. That's what it's like to guess

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Speaker 1: at what the jury's really doing based on their questions.

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Speaker 1: But I do agree with Wendy the fact that they

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Speaker 1: asked to have a victim's testimony read back, not just one,

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Speaker 1: but several of the victims testimony. It could be something

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Speaker 1: as simple as well, I think she said this, and

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Speaker 1: the other one goes, no, I don't remember that. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's hear the t After about an hour discussing it,

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Speaker 1: they go, okay, let's have a read back of the transcript.

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Speaker 1: I think that's most likely what happened. I think that

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Speaker 1: it is not helpful for the state that they wanted

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Speaker 1: to hear the FBI interview of one of the girls,

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Speaker 1: where she did not mention Gawaine Maxwell at the time.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's very helpful that they come out

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, can we consider this victim even though

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Speaker 1: we're not considering guilt or innocence? Can she be used

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Speaker 1: to show a conspiracy? And the judge says, yes, she can.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very positive sign for the state.

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Speaker 1: Jump in Joe Scott. Yeah. To Wendy's point, one of

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Speaker 1: the things, you know, how I talked about the absence

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Speaker 1: of physical evidence like we normally have from a forensic standpoint,

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Speaker 1: but you got to break that down, Joe Scott when

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Speaker 1: you said we're not going to have you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to have biological evidence like hair and fibers

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Speaker 1: and you know, semen in DNA. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's very that's very striking is

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're trying to establish are they the

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Speaker 1: prosecution is trying to establish this timeline. And when you

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Speaker 1: begin to think about, let's pull this one little piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence out here, when you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: does a fourteen year old have the ability to book

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Speaker 1: a flight to go to an exotic location. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about you, but I've never been to a private

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Speaker 1: island in the Caribbean as a fourteen year old. I

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Speaker 1: never booked a flight to go out to New Mexico

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Speaker 1: to the Zoro Ranch. As much as I would have

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Speaker 1: liked to have gone to a place like that in

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Speaker 1: my fantasies, you know, as a cowboy, I couldn't do that. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you begin to talk about Maxwell's involvement,

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Speaker 1: she's like she's controlling the purse stream, she's controlling the booking,

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Speaker 1: She's controlling the logistics of everything, and that is key here.

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Speaker 1: You know, the term pimp is very accurate with her

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Speaker 1: because she's controlling all of the timetables, the placement of individuals,

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Speaker 1: and not to mention all of the psychological underlying issues

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Speaker 1: here where she's identifying people and manipulating them and making

427
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: them feel safe in this very very horrific environment. Crime

428
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, doctor Guil, Doctor Teresa Guil,

429
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: professor of psychology and author, said something at the very

430
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: beginning of our program about asking the girls their dreams.

431
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: I don't mean, what did your dream about last night?

432
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Take a listen to ark at a four our friends

433
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: at Sky News they called Annie Farmer. She was the

434
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: fourth and final accuser to testify in this trial and

435
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: the only one to waive her anonymity. Miss Farmer said

436
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: she took a trip to Epstein's New Mexico ranch, hoping

437
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: he might be able to support her going to university.

438
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: It was there she met Glenn Maxwell. Hold The court

439
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: abuse by Miss Maxwell began with a massage. Miss Farmer

440
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: said she pulled the sheet down and exposed my breasts

441
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: and started rubbing my chest and upper breasts. The door

442
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: to the room was open. I had this sense he

443
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: could see me. On another occasion, Annie says Epstein crawled

444
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: into bed with her. I remember being in bed in

445
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: the morning and Epstein suddenly opening my door and bounding

446
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: into the room in a playful way and saying he

447
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: wanted a cuddle. She said he climbed into bed and

448
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: pressed his body against me. With Annie Farmer's story, the

449
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: prosecution rested its case. Wanted a cuddle, wanted a cuddle.

450
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: Somebody comes up to one of my children, this age

451
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: age fourteen, jumps in there with him, and once a curdle,

452
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: they're going to be a looking at the wrong end

453
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: of a barrel. I can promise you that to Jackie Howard,

454
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: you know many court watchers are saying, oh, it's bad

455
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: for the stay that it's been three days, hasn't been

456
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: three days, And it's bad for the stay that the

457
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: jury wants to hear a readback of testimony. I don't

458
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: agree with that. I don't know exactly what it does mean,

459
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: but it's another good and no bad. However, Jackie Howard,

460
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: if they had wanted to hear testimony, I hope it

461
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: was that testimony because that testimony makes me sick. So

462
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: tell me about what they wanted to hear, Jackie. I'm

463
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: trying to read the tea leaves the way I just

464
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: discounted that totally. I'm trying to do it. Go ahead, Well,

465
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: I agree with units is like trying to read the

466
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: tree leaves, because I think one of the things that

467
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: tea leaves not I think one of the things that

468
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: the jury is trying to look at is who is

469
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: credible in their information here? And that was one of

470
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: the things that the defense kept hammering on, is that

471
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: the women's stories changed, that they could not keep their

472
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: stories straight, that they did this for money. One he

473
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: accoosed of doing it to get a US visa. The

474
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: other thing with the prosecution kept saying, however, is that

475
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: the women were all used by Galainne Maxwell that she

476
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: used the same playbook with each individual victim that she

477
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: went to. So I also think that the jury is

478
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: looking at and trying to decide defense or prosecution who

479
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: is most accurate with what the testimony is of these

480
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: women guys. How Galaine max Sell can claims she was

481
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: just a house manager is beyond me. Based largely on

482
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: this take a listen to our cut a fourteen our

483
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: friends at Sky. The jury was handed intimate photographs of

484
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell together. Judging by their changing appearances,

485
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: they seem to have been taken over a period of years.

486
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: The prosecution says they show not only romantic partners, but

487
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 1: partners in crime. They appear on some of the photos

488
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: like any other loving couple, documenting a life of luxury

489
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: lived together, a ski trip, a tight embrace, a footrub

490
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: on a plane, even a visit. It seems to the

491
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: Queen's Balmoral estate pictured in the same spot where her

492
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: Majesty has been photographed. These pictures were found on CDs

493
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: and hard drives seized during a police raid of Epstein's

494
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: New York mansion, stored inside wardrobes and a safe. The

495
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: court was also shown this advert apparently created by Maxwell,

496
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: calling for a massage therapist. Much of Epstein's abuse centered

497
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: around massages. Okay, Wendy Murphy, veteran trial, while you're way

498
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: in on what you just heard. Well, it's just it's

499
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: the kind of narratives in a trial that I like

500
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: because bottom liners, if the jury is going to find

501
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: her not guilty, they had to come up with an innocent, plausible,

502
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: innocent explanation for all of that stuff, and there isn't one.

503
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: There's just not there's not going to be an alternative explanation. Oh,

504
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: this was innocent because she was just making thirty million dollars,

505
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, to keep the houses clean. She was just

506
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: befriending these girls because she's a nice person. None of

507
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And then you know, you have this

508
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: idea that, yes, Epstein might have been the primary bad guy,

509
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: and yes, the defense theme that she's just being prosecuted

510
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: because he's dead. Well, the jury's also going to think

511
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: to itself that doesn't make her innocent. The fact that

512
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: he can't be prosecuted doesn't mean she's innocent. So for me,

513
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: the picture that's been drawn of what she did and

514
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: the fact that when a jury uses its common sense

515
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: and is deliberating and discussing all the evidence, it's going

516
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: to think, you know, it's going to think, listen, we

517
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: have to understand what this woman's role was in Epstein's life.

518
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: Is there a plausible theory for why she was getting

519
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: paid thirty billion dollars, why she was befriending these children,

520
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: why she was jetting them around the country, And is

521
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: the plausible explanation that she was an innocent housekeeper and

522
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: all these girls are lying. That makes no sense. If

523
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: there were just one victim, If there were just one

524
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: victim and she had credibility problems, I might say, you know,

525
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: the defense has a good case, or at least a

526
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: good chance of winning by establishing a reasonable doubt. When

527
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: you have four victims, they didn't come together and come

528
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: up with their stories at the same time. They came

529
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: separately to law enforcement, and they all happen to have

530
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: the same story about what Galine did. As her pattern

531
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: and prantice of conspiring with Epstein, there is no way

532
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: to find her not guilty except if you know, literally

533
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: lose your mind and common sense in the jury room.

534
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: You know what I find particularly cruel dotor Gill. I'm

535
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: circling back to you because you brought this up, of course,

536
00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: not just say molestations in the rapes, but they I'm

537
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: to play. You mentioned that Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. Maxwell

538
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: would speak to the girls about their dreams, and I

539
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: played Sam for you earlier regarding any Farmer, and this

540
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: is echoed by many of the victims. Farmer says she

541
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: took a trip to Epstein's in New Mexico ranch because

542
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: she was led to believe he could support her going

543
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 1: to university. I see, when I was listening to the

544
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: tapes and reading upon the victim's statements, they said it

545
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: wasn't all sexual abuse. And I think that's also part

546
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: of the grooming and part of the confusion when you

547
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: put it out a fourteen year old or fifteen year

548
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: old or sixteen year old or even somebody in their twenties.

549
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: But they said we did other things. It wasn't just sex.

550
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: And she said sex seven times a day, that Epstein

551
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: wanted those quote unquote messages. But they said they also

552
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: went hiking, they did crafts together, they watched TV together,

553
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: they went snorkeling, they did trips, they bought clothes, So

554
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: she said it was just like this odd family where

555
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: you would participate with one another, engage in relationship and rapport,

556
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: and then be also sexually abused at the same time.

557
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: So it was confusing for them, and Epstein and Maxwell

558
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: were master manipulators. Take a listen to our cut three sky,

559
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: The jury heard from a British woman testifying under the

560
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: pseudonym Kate. She met Glenn Maxwell, aged seventeen, at a

561
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: time in her life, she says, when she was particularly lonely.

562
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: She claims that Miss Maxwell then paved the way for

563
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: her to be abused by Jeffrey Epstein. Kate described meeting

564
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: Miss Maxwell. I felt that I had found a new

565
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: connection that could be really meaningful to me, She said.

566
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: I was really happy that we had connected, and she

567
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: seemed as excited to desalules to have a new friend.

568
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: She says. Miss Maxwell later encouraged her to give Epstein

569
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: a massage, which led to a sex act. When asked

570
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: why she went along with it, Kate said Miss Maxwell

571
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: seemed to know everyone. She told me she was friends

572
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: with Prince Andrew. You know, the prosecution is disallowed under

573
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: the law from asking this question, but I'm not What

574
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: if these were your girls and you find out years

575
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: later that under your watch they were molested. We wait

576
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: as the jury deliberates Nancy Gray's Crown Story, signing off

577
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,