WEBVTT - Inside the Booming Market for Dinosaur Fossils

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe.

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<v Speaker 3>Joe.

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<v Speaker 2>When you were a kid or do your children now?

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<v Speaker 2>Are they into dinosaurs? Did you go through a dinosaur?

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<v Speaker 4>F Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 1>I love dinosaurs as a kid. My kids are, of

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<v Speaker 1>course into dinosaurs. They're really into not only dinosaurs, but

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<v Speaker 1>telling me which prehistoric animals aren't dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 2>So wait, does this come up a lot in conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because I'm a troll to them. So I'll be like,

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<v Speaker 1>what's your favorite note No, but I'll say things like

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<v Speaker 1>what's your favorite dinosaur? Mine's the pterodactyl. And then my

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<v Speaker 1>daughter rolls her eyes like, Dad, pterodactyl is not technically

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<v Speaker 1>a dinastas.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait is that true? I do not know that?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Wait, explain it's something I don't understand it. Apparently,

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, it's just it's not technically a dinosaur. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a prehistoric animal of some different nature that is technically

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<v Speaker 1>not a look it up, all right, Well, look it up.

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<v Speaker 2>Learn something new every day.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of you know what, I'm gonna sound like

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<v Speaker 1>a crank here I'm not a flat earther, but I'm like,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of, I'm skeptical of dinosaurs. I'm surely existed, and

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<v Speaker 1>I know we have fossil records of them. But here's

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<v Speaker 1>what I don't get. Okay, and I know this isn't

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<v Speaker 1>technically the topic, but I'm just so, it's like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we had all these animals and they're really crazy looking,

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<v Speaker 1>these big beasts, and they sort of look like dragons

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<v Speaker 1>in some cases, or lizards or gigantic and then they

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<v Speaker 1>all went extinct for some reason, prior media or something,

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<v Speaker 1>and then evolution started again. We got a new set,

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<v Speaker 1>and the new animals don't look anything like the dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 2>Buying a sure, chickens look like little dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, No, they don't. I'm sorry, they don't. They don't.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't. They don't. I've seen what I've seen Jurassic Park,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been to the museum. I love looking at the

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<v Speaker 1>fossil records. I know what chickens look like.

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<v Speaker 2>No, chickens have a total reptilian vibe. You can see it.

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<v Speaker 1>I disagree.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Okay, so this podcast is going to be a.

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<v Speaker 1>Tyrannosaurs like, there's nothing that looks like a tyrannosaurus. There's

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<v Speaker 1>nothing that looks like a brontosaurus.

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<v Speaker 2>Strong disagree. A lot of birds look like t rexes.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, oh this is.

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<v Speaker 1>The other thing that look Oh there were birds. They

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<v Speaker 1>actually had feathers. That's certainly not how they're depicted in

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<v Speaker 1>like a lot of well when you were growing up,

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of birds look like t rexes. What, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>No they don't. They do, No, they don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, this could be sixty minutes of Joe and I

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<v Speaker 2>arguing bird looks like at t rex what it does?

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<v Speaker 4>Come on, you need to.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at more birds. That's your problem, okay, rather than

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<v Speaker 2>than us. Keep going with this. Uh, We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about a market and interesting market, a market that

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<v Speaker 2>unusually for nowadays is actually going up. And is it records.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is the fossil market, the dinosaur fossil market.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, now this I'm very interested. I believe that. Now

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<v Speaker 1>I have your I believe that fossils exist.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm glad we have stablish it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also like, you know, I actually was at a

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<v Speaker 1>dinner once and I met someone who is a commercial

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<v Speaker 1>fossil pursuer, hunter, collector, whatever, sounds like they're they're worth

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<v Speaker 1>quite a bit of money, or they can be.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So every once in a while, every once in

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<v Speaker 2>a while you see these headlines like, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>new set of fossils or a new set of bones

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<v Speaker 2>sold for a record price. So the one that jumps

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<v Speaker 2>out at me because it has a finance angle is

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<v Speaker 2>Ken Griffin buying a Stegosaurs skeleton for I think something

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<v Speaker 2>like forty five million dollars A couple of years back.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was the most expensive fossil ever sold.

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<v Speaker 2>But anecdotally, some of the things I've been reading or

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<v Speaker 2>saying that fossils are becoming more of a thing. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>once you get to a certain level of wealth, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess you get into art, or you get into antiquities,

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<v Speaker 2>or nowadays maybe you get into dinosaur bones.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a one of the really fancy South Beach hotels.

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<v Speaker 1>They have a big full I forget which dina, a

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<v Speaker 1>big dinosaur thing in their lobby. And I think even

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<v Speaker 1>like gold plated the or something it looks absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Like is there a real fossil that I think?

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<v Speaker 1>So like ostentatiously Miami or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Oh wow, Okay, if I had a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Of money, and I was done collecting art, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was done collecting mirror books. Maybe I'd move on to dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 2>I should just say this, this podcast is not just

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<v Speaker 2>of interest to people that have millions of dollars to

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<v Speaker 2>spend on dinosaur fossils. It is also an interesting market

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<v Speaker 2>structure and question and sourcing scenario. I guess, because, as

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<v Speaker 2>you say, there are commercial dinosaur hunters out there, but

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<v Speaker 2>there are also a lot of regulations around what you

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<v Speaker 2>can and cannot sell. There are also a lot of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, ethical questions that come up. Should these be

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<v Speaker 2>in museums or should they be gold plated in a

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<v Speaker 2>Miami lobby somewhere?

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<v Speaker 1>You know what else? Is something interesting. I just looked

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<v Speaker 1>on the terminal and right now, dinosaur future fossils are

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<v Speaker 1>in backwardation. What no, I I made that dinosaur future.

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<v Speaker 1>There's certainly not a futures curve I made that of

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my.

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<v Speaker 2>God, I was actually really excited.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's just pure fabrication.

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<v Speaker 2>We should we should request it, Okay, all right? Without

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<v Speaker 2>further ado, I am pleased to say we do, in

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<v Speaker 2>fact have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking

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<v Speaker 2>with Salomon Aaron he has a director at David Erin,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a London based antiquities, Islamic art and dinosaur

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<v Speaker 2>fossil gallery. So someone who actually buys and sells fossils

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<v Speaker 2>for a living. So so thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>coming on our thoughts.

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<v Speaker 4>My pleasure. It's lovely to be with you both and

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<v Speaker 4>to have this conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>So maybe just to situate ourselves, is the fossil market

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<v Speaker 2>similar to the art market or the antiquities market? Is

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<v Speaker 2>it different in some way? Like, give us some comparatives

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<v Speaker 2>as we think through dinosaur fossils as an asset.

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<v Speaker 4>Class with pleasure. Would you mind if I give a

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<v Speaker 4>bit of context and just build up to the present.

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<v Speaker 4>Of course, of course the dinosaur fossil market is starting

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<v Speaker 4>to resemble other areas of the art market, but it's

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<v Speaker 4>still quite a distance from that point. The principal reason

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<v Speaker 4>being that it's a very underdeveloped, recent, recently growing and

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<v Speaker 4>attracting interest market. It's not it doesn't have the depth

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<v Speaker 4>of kind of research, market, market parallels, pricing comps that

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<v Speaker 4>the other areas of the art market does, and all

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<v Speaker 4>of the rules relating to how you deal in dinosaur

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<v Speaker 4>forces are still being hammered out kind of which we

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<v Speaker 4>can delve into, kind of condition, authenticity, attribution, provenance. All

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<v Speaker 4>of these things are still developing. And so it's true

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<v Speaker 4>that the market has been booming over the past ten years,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think that's changing in a way. As the

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<v Speaker 4>market slightly matures, hopefully there's going to be a kind

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<v Speaker 4>of a flight to quality and much more differentiation between

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<v Speaker 4>kind of the great dinosaur fossils that deserve and are

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<v Speaker 4>finally getting that, you know, the recognition, and others which

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<v Speaker 4>shouldn't be. So it's I don't know if that in

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<v Speaker 4>many ways kind of answers your question.

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<v Speaker 1>No, that's that's a great place to start. So when

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<v Speaker 1>we think about the broad universe of let's just start

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<v Speaker 1>with the universe of fossils rather than collective fossils. Do

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<v Speaker 1>we have a sense of like how many are in museums,

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<v Speaker 1>private collections, et cetera. And how much is still in

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<v Speaker 1>the ground yet to be found.

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<v Speaker 4>So I can't accurately answer that question because I don't

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<v Speaker 4>think anybody really really knows what's still left to be discovered.

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<v Speaker 4>I imagine that, you know, we're kind of at the tip

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<v Speaker 4>of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Iceberg, and in terms of discovery.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, definitely. The issue with kind of why more isn't

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<v Speaker 4>discovered is it's extremely time and kind of labor intensive

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<v Speaker 4>to discover a dinosaur. You know, you need to be

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<v Speaker 4>able to excavate at a certain time of the year.

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<v Speaker 4>It requires a lot of manpower. It's a financial risk

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<v Speaker 4>because you know, there are dinosaur explorers that will go,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, a whole dig season looking for something and

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<v Speaker 4>come up with nothing, and as a result, you know

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<v Speaker 4>what's happened is as the market has exploded over the

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<v Speaker 4>past ten years, it's becoming much more financially feasible for

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<v Speaker 4>people to kind of look for dinosaurs and to bring

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<v Speaker 4>things to the market. So that kind of the rising

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<v Speaker 4>prices are hugely increasing the supply of dinosaur fossils. Because

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<v Speaker 4>it may have been in the past if someone had

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<v Speaker 4>discovered kind of elements of a particular species or a specimen,

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<v Speaker 4>they'd say, Okay, based on the numbers, this isn't worth

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<v Speaker 4>me spending the rest of my dig season trying to

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<v Speaker 4>uncover the rest of this. But as the numbers go up,

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<v Speaker 4>it all becomes more feasible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So on this note, walk us through a sort

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<v Speaker 2>of canonical example I got of a dinosaur fossil being discovered,

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<v Speaker 2>like who actually funds this expedition, who goes out and

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<v Speaker 2>tries to find it, and then what happens once they do.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, So the rules relating to how and where you

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<v Speaker 4>find a dinosaur fossil very dependent on country. We only

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<v Speaker 4>deal in American dinosaur fossils because the rules are very clear.

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<v Speaker 4>If you find a dinosaur fossil on private land, you

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<v Speaker 4>can legally sell it as long as you have the

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<v Speaker 4>permission of all parties, the landowner, the dinosaur hunter, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 4>In other countries it's more shady. They might have exceptions.

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<v Speaker 4>You might be able to get export permits. But you know,

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<v Speaker 4>I'd not recommend anybody to kind of get involved or

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<v Speaker 4>kind of do that. I just suggest focus on American

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<v Speaker 4>dinosaur fossils, so to talk you through the process or

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<v Speaker 4>how it works with us as a gallery, we're a

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<v Speaker 4>retail gallery. We will work with landowners and dinosaur explorers

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<v Speaker 4>who will kind of go out, you know, in Wyoming

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<v Speaker 4>or in Montana or South Dakota or wherever that may be,

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<v Speaker 4>look for dinosaur fossils and call us or email us

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<v Speaker 4>when they have kind of images of bones as soon

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<v Speaker 4>as they're discovered. And the way it works is, in

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<v Speaker 4>some cases it's the landowner who is entering into agreements

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<v Speaker 4>with a dinosaur hunter, for example, to split profit. In

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<v Speaker 4>some cases it's kind of commercial dinosaur dealers who will

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<v Speaker 4>acquire ranches or land hoping to kind of for the

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<v Speaker 4>purpose of finding dinosaur fossils on that property. And least

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<v Speaker 4>often is you might buy something from a private collector

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<v Speaker 4>who bought it decades ago on the market himself. We

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<v Speaker 4>very rarely do that because the rules relating to provenance

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<v Speaker 4>have changed so drastically that it's unlikely that somebody who

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<v Speaker 4>offered a dinosaur for sale a long period of time

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<v Speaker 4>decades ago will have all of the paperwork we would

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<v Speaker 4>want to see today to if you're cotable with being

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<v Speaker 4>able to offer it to privates or to museums.

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<v Speaker 1>What are the rules of provence?

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<v Speaker 4>As I said, the rules have been developing, and different

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<v Speaker 4>dealers will kind of require different amounts of due diligence.

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<v Speaker 4>But obviously, the more certainty you have that you know

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<v Speaker 4>you know exactly where and when and by whom with

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<v Speaker 4>what permissions a dinosaur fossil is discovered, the more confidence

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<v Speaker 4>you have as a buyer. So for example, we will

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<v Speaker 4>insist on GPS coordinates. We will need to see land

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<v Speaker 4>deeds showing that whoever owns it proves their legal title

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<v Speaker 4>GPS coordinates. As it's discovered, we'll need to have copies

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<v Speaker 4>of the sale arrangements between the dinosaur hunter and the landowner.

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<v Speaker 4>We'll need to see ideally, when it's an important dinosaur fossil,

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<v Speaker 4>I like to see videos kind of as the piece

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<v Speaker 4>in situ, you know, in real time, is being discovered,

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<v Speaker 4>so I know that bones aren't being added, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>We'll want to have kind of coroberating statements from everyone

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<v Speaker 4>on the site explaining what's been found. Will want to

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<v Speaker 4>send experts to the location or visit ourselves to kind

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<v Speaker 4>of verify everything as it's being excavated. So all of

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<v Speaker 4>that is kind of helps to build a picture of

0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.880
<v Speaker 4>where you have complete certainty over when, where, how, and

0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.600
<v Speaker 4>you know in whose property the piece the fossil was discovered.

0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.960
<v Speaker 4>If you kind of rewind fifteen twenty years ago, dinosaur

0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.800
<v Speaker 4>fossils may have been exchanging hands where you might just

0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.280
<v Speaker 4>have a signed statement from someone saying I found this

0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.200
<v Speaker 4>on my property at you know, fifteen Oak Hill Road

0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.320
<v Speaker 4>or whatever, but you know, as the numbers have increased,

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.120
<v Speaker 4>And also kind of just a bit of background, we're

0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 4>an ancient art or antiquities gallery and we deal in

0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:43.160
<v Speaker 4>Islamic card and we entered the dinosaur fossil market effectively

0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 4>trying to use the you know, the due diligence rules

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.480
<v Speaker 4>in those categories and apply them to the dinosaur fossil market.

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 4>So my original background is and my kind of my

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 4>family's background are antiquities dealers, where we when we buy

0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 4>an artwork or a Roman marble, we need to be

0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 4>clear about its provenance, you know, where, how did it

0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.160
<v Speaker 4>enter the market? What proof is that it legally left

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.320
<v Speaker 4>its country of origin? And unless we're able to show

0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 4>that conclusively with proof, then a buyer or a museum

0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.160
<v Speaker 4>doesn't really have the ultimate security that the piece is

0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.400
<v Speaker 4>legally on the market. So we developed their own internal

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 4>ways of kind of really a kind of checklist for

0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 4>a for a specimen to make us feel comfortable that

0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 4>it's legal and it's on the sale on the market

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 4>legally with no kind of issues relating to its title.

0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.120
<v Speaker 4>Does that kind of build a picture of.

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 3>What you need?

0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.040
<v Speaker 4>Yeahstely to buy a dinosaur bustle.

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Do you do third party testing at all, like thermolo

0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.800
<v Speaker 2>lessons testing for age very pick and things like that,

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 2>or do you not really need it once you have

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.400
<v Speaker 2>all the provenance evidence to back it.

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.240
<v Speaker 4>Up case dependent. But what we really want to do

0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.200
<v Speaker 4>is we try, wherever possible to arrange independent third party

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 4>consultants or paleontologists or specialists to look at the specimen

0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.160
<v Speaker 4>before we offer it for sale, and ideally a paleontologist

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 4>who specializes in that particular species. So, for example, we

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.720
<v Speaker 4>recently sold a Jurassic skeleton which was one hundred and

0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 4>fifty million years old, and we kind of reached out

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.120
<v Speaker 4>to the best person in that category and said, could

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.320
<v Speaker 4>you just review the images? What does this look like

0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.200
<v Speaker 4>to you? And what we also do is arrange conservators

0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 4>to well from the art background, to come and check

0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 4>that the bones that we are assembling are reflected accurately

0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 4>on a bone map. And that's something else that I

0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 4>think we'll probably get into, is you know, how do

0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.080
<v Speaker 4>you know what you're buying? Because dinosaur fossils aren't discovered

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.800
<v Speaker 4>completely intact, virtually never discovered completely intact. They are assembled

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 4>from what is to discovered and then that's mixed in

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 4>with resin parts or three D printed bones to complete

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 4>the specimen, et cetera. And so anybody buying a dinosaur

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.920
<v Speaker 4>fossil needs to know what they're buying, and that's something

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 4>you know. Again, the market is developing over the past

0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 4>fifteen twenty years because it used to be that, well

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.800
<v Speaker 4>actually it still is today that if you walk into

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 4>a fossil shop and you say, well, how much of

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 4>what I'm buying is real bone and how much of

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 4>it is fake bone, they'll show you a kind of

0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 4>a color book, a drawing of all the bones, and

0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.960
<v Speaker 4>if an element of that bone is present, they'll say, oh, yeah,

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 4>we have you know, we have the fibula, we have

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 4>the vertebrae, we have whatever it is, we have this claw.

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 4>And actually it could be very misleading because you might

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.960
<v Speaker 4>actually have five percent of that particular bone. And as

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 4>a result, a item that looks very complete on a

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 4>bone map is actually incredibly incomplete. So not only do

0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 4>we we kind of insist on having paid intelligence specialists

0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.320
<v Speaker 4>check that you know, this is the special when we're

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.359
<v Speaker 4>describing it's being attributed correctly, but also we'll have conservators

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 4>actually draw up a bone map which as a gallery,

0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 4>we've designed to show what percentage of each bone is there.

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 4>And that's one of the kind of issues with the

0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 4>dinosaur fossil market is that, you know, somebody could very

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 4>easily snap a bone in half and kind of double

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 4>its quote unquote completeness in that bone map kind of process.

0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 4>And so when you asked, your first question was, you know,

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.240
<v Speaker 4>how does this compare or contrast with other areas of

0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 4>the art market. There isn't the same depth of kind

0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 4>of art consultants, advisory firms, etcetera that are increasing the

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 4>pressure on vendors to try to keep all kind of

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.920
<v Speaker 4>for example, art fares. You know, if you are a

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.280
<v Speaker 4>art gallery and you want to exhibit at the best

0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 4>art fairs in the world, there are certain vetting requirements

0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 4>you need to fulfill, and so the dinosaur market doesn't

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 4>have that same level of scrutiny for now. As the

0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 4>numbers are increasing and there are kind of way more

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.160
<v Speaker 4>private collector is interested in acquiring and building private collections

0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 4>of dinosaur fossils, and also new museums being formed around

0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.320
<v Speaker 4>the world. The market as a result is kind of

0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.679
<v Speaker 4>developing new systems to be more transparent and also to

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.720
<v Speaker 4>better present completeness.

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.639
<v Speaker 1>Already very fascinating. Just real quick question on North American dinosaurs.

0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.240
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned that a lot of the excavation or hunting

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.480
<v Speaker 1>work happens in Wyoming, North Dakota, et cetera. Is that

0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.480
<v Speaker 1>because geographically we have reason to believe that there was

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 1>a high density of fossils there. Or is it because

0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.160
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of land, Like if there's a dinosaunder

0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.320
<v Speaker 1>in New York City, no one's looking for it, you

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.960
<v Speaker 1>can't dig it up. Is it just because there's a

0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of land there that is diggable, that's not being

0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:44.960
<v Speaker 1>used for anything else.

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.720
<v Speaker 4>I think it's one of the above. Ideally, there are

0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 4>climates that make it easier to dig in, like, for example,

0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.440
<v Speaker 4>you can't dig when it's snowing. When it's too hot,

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.000
<v Speaker 4>it becomes quite difficult. Also, and you need that kind

0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.320
<v Speaker 4>of churn of weather that that kind of mixes up

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.919
<v Speaker 4>the earth and makes it easier. It's all of the above.

0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.679
<v Speaker 2>So the other thing I'm very curious about in all

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 2>of this is the pricing of fossils, because, as you say,

0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.440
<v Speaker 2>in many ways it's a new market for some very

0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.840
<v Speaker 2>very old things. But if someone discovers a skeleton. And

0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.680
<v Speaker 2>I take your point that you rarely discover a full skeleton.

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.440
<v Speaker 2>But let's say you discover something that's kind of unusual

0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 2>in that world, how do you even go about benchmarking

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.280
<v Speaker 2>it to an actual price that you can sell it for.

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.639
<v Speaker 4>It's a great question. So when my dad, for example,

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.960
<v Speaker 4>when we're discussing antiquities or Islamic car and we buy

0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.719
<v Speaker 4>we acquire a new piece, will immediately sit down and

0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.640
<v Speaker 4>my dad will say, this is exactly like the one

0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.880
<v Speaker 4>that appeared in ninety eight at auction, This is exactly

0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.160
<v Speaker 4>like the one that appears in this catalog in seventy two,

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.360
<v Speaker 4>and I saw one in power. You know that doesn't exist.

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 4>And the issue with the dinosaur fossil well kit is

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 4>that the prices, and I'll give you kind of concrete examples,

0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.960
<v Speaker 4>is so all over the place, because take, for instance,

0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.439
<v Speaker 4>which was kind of a shed moment in the dinosaur

0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.600
<v Speaker 4>fossil market, which was the sale of Stand. It was

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:09.680
<v Speaker 4>a super complete, high profile, widely published, iconic t rex

0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.159
<v Speaker 4>skeleton acquired by the Abu Dhabi Natural History Museum in

0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.720
<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty or twenty twenty one at Christie's that made

0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.479
<v Speaker 4>thirty one million dollars. The record for a dinosaur at

0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.159
<v Speaker 4>auction prior to that was eight million dollars in the

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.480
<v Speaker 4>early two thousands, which was Sue, which was acquired by

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.639
<v Speaker 4>a consortium of companies and is now on permanent display

0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.240
<v Speaker 4>in Chicago. So and probably after Sue, there was very

0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.479
<v Speaker 4>few things that actually made eight million dollars up until

0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:41.879
<v Speaker 4>Stan and after stand the prices exploded and Christie's and

0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:47.359
<v Speaker 4>Southeby started recurringly consigning major dinosaur fossils for sale, and

0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.399
<v Speaker 4>actually there was no logic to why they were so

0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.920
<v Speaker 4>cheap prior to that sale. You know, a lot of

0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 4>it was to do with the lack of visibility that

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.520
<v Speaker 4>people didn't know you could acquire dinosaur fossils. And what

0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.880
<v Speaker 4>happened with our gallery specifically was we were the first

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.679
<v Speaker 4>commercial art gallery to actually start exhibiting dinosaur fossils as

0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 4>an art form add an art fair. So we acquired

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.679
<v Speaker 4>our dinosaur fossils, we applied art market due diligence to

0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.119
<v Speaker 4>the acquisition, art market kind of condition, reporting to the

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.399
<v Speaker 4>condition and the preservation, created bespoke art market minimalist stands

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 4>for the pieces, and then showed them at art fairs

0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:24.199
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of people would come up to us

0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 4>and say, I did not know you could buy a

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:27.680
<v Speaker 4>t Rex. I did not know you could buy a

0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 4>Triceratops skull. And what the auction houses did was kind

0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.879
<v Speaker 4>of pump these items into the news and into auctions,

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.919
<v Speaker 4>and then a whole generation of tech bros and private

0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 4>collectors kind of descended on the market with advisors and

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.920
<v Speaker 4>kind of that contributed to the explosion in prices. So

0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 4>to give you an example specifically, you know, there was

0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 4>a complete Triceratops scale a skeleton that sold around twenty

0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.520
<v Speaker 4>twenty two, twenty twenty three, don't quote me on the

0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.160
<v Speaker 4>exact date, but big job in Paris, which made kind

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.639
<v Speaker 4>of circle eight million dollars. The prior record for a

0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 4>Triteretops skeleton was I mean, I don't know of any

0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:11.240
<v Speaker 4>that made more than a million at public auction. I

0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.920
<v Speaker 4>know that Christie's had one that went unsold for half

0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.639
<v Speaker 4>a million dollars ten plus years earlier. So the price

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.280
<v Speaker 4>jumps have been extraordinary. And there are many other examples

0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 4>like that where you know, since Stan we've had you know, Hector,

0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.360
<v Speaker 4>we had a Raptor that made kind of twelve thirteen

0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.480
<v Speaker 4>million pounds. We've had this best, the Apex, which was

0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.479
<v Speaker 4>brought by Kin Griffin, made forty five million. We had

0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.120
<v Speaker 4>the last other specimen made thirty seven million, And these

0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 4>are all numbers which are unheard of in the dinosaur

0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.880
<v Speaker 4>fossil market. So, and the issue is that a lot

0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.879
<v Speaker 4>of these specimens are being either consigned by kind of

0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 4>primary dinosaur hunters or landowners to auction, and then once

0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.960
<v Speaker 4>they've kind of made this sale, it's very difficult for

0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.320
<v Speaker 4>them to then sell something at the prior prices, you know,

0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.359
<v Speaker 4>five ten years prior. So yeah, that's kind of gives

0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.960
<v Speaker 4>you a bit of context about the complete change in

0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:05.880
<v Speaker 4>pricing structure in this industry.

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:11.119
<v Speaker 1>So I take it that finding a complete skeleton is rare?

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Is there a lot of transaction activity? And just like

0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, here's a fumur, here's a foot, here's a

0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 1>here's a nose, Like is that the.

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.360
<v Speaker 2>More so unimpressed? I'd be so excited about a dinosaurs?

0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, sure too, But like, are there a lot

0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 1>of transaction or do you like, let's say you have

0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.920
<v Speaker 1>part of a skull, like do you weigh and it's

0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.639
<v Speaker 1>like maybe we can find some more and like build something,

0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:37.160
<v Speaker 1>and also is there like is it legitimate in your

0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 1>space to create an assemblage. It's like we have a

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:45.040
<v Speaker 1>complete X, but it's from five different dinosaurs, but it

0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.080
<v Speaker 1>is all dinosaur bones. We put them together, Like are

0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:49.600
<v Speaker 1>is there anything going on like that?

0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.080
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, yeah, all good questions. I mean we so

0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.880
<v Speaker 4>as a gallery, our business model is to deal in

0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.280
<v Speaker 4>very few but you know, the very best, and not

0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:04.760
<v Speaker 4>to sell composits and to sell fragments, but only when

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.479
<v Speaker 4>they're kind of I think esthetic or beautiful or kind

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 4>of historically interesting. But there are loads of sellers for

0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:16.160
<v Speaker 4>the cheaper part of cheaper kind of smaller bones, and

0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.320
<v Speaker 4>that's a huge market. You can go to mineral shows

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.600
<v Speaker 4>and you can buy teeth in the hundreds of dollars.

0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.360
<v Speaker 4>You can also buy very much cheaper if you buy

0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.920
<v Speaker 4>non American dinosaur fossils. And there are dealers that will

0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 4>sell composits, and everybody will take a kind of commercial

0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.520
<v Speaker 4>decision on whether to assemble something or sell it as

0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.840
<v Speaker 4>a fragment. I prefer we're possible to kind of not

0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.840
<v Speaker 4>over restore so that you don't look at something and say,

0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 4>I have a you know something which in bone mass

0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.720
<v Speaker 4>or sorry, in mass is kind of twenty percent original,

0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:52.080
<v Speaker 4>eighty percent resin. I'd rather show a fragment. But yeah,

0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:53.919
<v Speaker 4>look I can tell you I personally have I have

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.359
<v Speaker 4>a triceraotops horn at home. I have a couple of

0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.719
<v Speaker 4>t rex teeth at home, so I think they're core.

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking at your website. Yeah, there's a tract or

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:06.160
<v Speaker 1>possibly gore gossairis I never heard of that dinosaur tooth

0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.639
<v Speaker 1>for sale for eighty five hundred pounds. Yeah, seems affordable.

0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 4>Well you'd get a discount as well.

0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Next time we're in London.

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Jet it's a nice big tooth. It looks nice.

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.040
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but we're not sure and that one which of

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.160
<v Speaker 4>the two it is, so we kind of cautious.

0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So, just to Joe's question, could I make Could I

0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:44.240
<v Speaker 2>make a living basically being a dinosaur fossil assemblage person

0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:46.720
<v Speaker 2>and then just charging a massive markup as I sort

0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.520
<v Speaker 2>of collect various bones and try to create a fully

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>formed skeleton.

0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.119
<v Speaker 4>Yes, and no, Because this is the thing about the

0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:59.400
<v Speaker 4>market maturing, is that, strictly speaking, you know, private collectors

0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.000
<v Speaker 4>should be a and they should be kind of not

0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.960
<v Speaker 4>acquiring things unless they know for certain that they've been

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.439
<v Speaker 4>assembled correctly, they are original to the piece, and you

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.680
<v Speaker 4>know you aren't taking composites. But in recent years, because

0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:14.960
<v Speaker 4>the market has kind of had so much demand, there

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:17.199
<v Speaker 4>are people who have acquired pieces that maybe should not

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:19.639
<v Speaker 4>have done, or paid prices they shouldn't have done. But

0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.560
<v Speaker 4>that's something I expect to decrease with time because of

0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 4>the increased scrutiny that is, you know, should be coming

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 4>into these fossils as a result of kind of the

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.120
<v Speaker 4>higher numbers. Yeah, and then the other thing to say

0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.080
<v Speaker 4>is that it's very competitive. Like you, if you want

0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.760
<v Speaker 4>to buy a great dinosaur fossil today, you can't just

0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.560
<v Speaker 4>you know, go down a promenade of galleries and you

0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:40.000
<v Speaker 4>know you can walk in and say, oh, I'd like

0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:41.920
<v Speaker 4>to buy a t rex. Could you show me what's

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:44.760
<v Speaker 4>you know behind the curtain that doesn't exist? I mean,

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 4>if you want to buy an amazing dinosaur fossil, you

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:50.119
<v Speaker 4>know you're looking at having to kind of pre buy it,

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:52.359
<v Speaker 4>pre acquire it prior to prepping. So what we do

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:55.240
<v Speaker 4>with clients, for example, is a client recently I sold

0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 4>an amazing complete skeleton. It's either a Martialsaurus or it's

0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.200
<v Speaker 4>a completely unknown new species to a private collector who

0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:05.800
<v Speaker 4>wanted to have it go on public display. So it's

0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:08.840
<v Speaker 4>being loaned to a the Colchester Museum in the UK.

0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:12.160
<v Speaker 4>And it's kind of something that this private collector wants

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 4>to be studied, and he wants it to be kind

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:16.520
<v Speaker 4>of made available to science. And I don't know if

0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:18.400
<v Speaker 4>his plan at some point will be to donate it

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:20.399
<v Speaker 4>or to what his plans is, but he's a very

0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:24.159
<v Speaker 4>kind of fillanpropic person. But in that scenario, what we

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:26.960
<v Speaker 4>had to do was I met the client years ago,

0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:30.000
<v Speaker 4>we agreed on the strategy, which was to buy an

0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:35.000
<v Speaker 4>amazing complete skeleton. Then I consistently sent the client kind

0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:38.439
<v Speaker 4>of propositions of specimens as they were being discovered, and

0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:41.000
<v Speaker 4>I said, listen, this has just been found. This is

0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.399
<v Speaker 4>what's been found so far. This is how much the

0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 4>cut price is to the landowner. This is how much

0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.359
<v Speaker 4>I envision it will cost to prep You need to

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:50.800
<v Speaker 4>pre buy this if you want this specimen, because by

0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:55.320
<v Speaker 4>the time this is acquired and prepped and complete, I

0:26:55.320 --> 0:26:59.000
<v Speaker 4>mean you're we're competing against the kind of sovereign wealth

0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:02.960
<v Speaker 4>fund or kind of petro dollar States tech. It's just

0:27:03.200 --> 0:27:05.880
<v Speaker 4>much more difficult souther Beast Christie's we'll never be able

0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:07.440
<v Speaker 4>to get a price, and it might not be able

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.600
<v Speaker 4>to acquire it. So that's what people have to do

0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:13.639
<v Speaker 4>to buy really great dinosaur fossils. Usually it's unusual for

0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:15.439
<v Speaker 4>someone to be able to kind of walk in and

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:18.160
<v Speaker 4>buy something amazing at a kind of reasonable price.

0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Actually that reminds me, but who's the archetypal buyer for

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:25.159
<v Speaker 2>these things? And has that shifted over time as the

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:26.520
<v Speaker 2>market becomes more prominent.

0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 4>I guess it has so as you could probably guess.

0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.399
<v Speaker 4>It's very tech science heavy, so we have clients of

0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:38.480
<v Speaker 4>all ages. But what's interesting is the dinosaur fossil clients

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:42.640
<v Speaker 4>are much younger than kind of the antiquities or Islamic

0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:47.080
<v Speaker 4>art clients in general. It's a younger demographic and also,

0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, really skew towards tech and science. It's a

0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:52.639
<v Speaker 4>lot of people that grew up with Jurassic Park that

0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 4>find it amazing. I would also add that our gallery

0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:00.080
<v Speaker 4>is very museum centric, so we try where possible to

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:04.280
<v Speaker 4>work with museums. So often, for example, where we can,

0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:07.160
<v Speaker 4>and we always have, we give museums first rights on

0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:12.159
<v Speaker 4>whatever we find. We consult museum scholars and curators, and

0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:15.520
<v Speaker 4>also we've had where possible, Actually what we're doing in

0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:19.440
<v Speaker 4>the dinosaur spaces we are introducing private collectors to museums,

0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:23.439
<v Speaker 4>and we are helping museums acquire specimens by kind of

0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:26.879
<v Speaker 4>you know, well finding the private donors to acquire the

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:29.800
<v Speaker 4>specimens for the museums. And we had a one of

0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:31.600
<v Speaker 4>the ones because I know that you guys are going

0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:35.639
<v Speaker 4>to touch on science and whether or not the private

0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:39.800
<v Speaker 4>market kind of takes away from science and research. So

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:42.560
<v Speaker 4>just to kind of jump into that question.

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.200
<v Speaker 1>It's exactly where I was going to go next.

0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:48.080
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, I imagined. So obviously it's very sad in

0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:50.920
<v Speaker 4>some instances where as a result of the private trade,

0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:54.480
<v Speaker 4>specimens are not available to museums or they might be

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.640
<v Speaker 4>lost to science. But as as a kind of commercial dealer,

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:01.680
<v Speaker 4>I do believe that on the balance, the public is

0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:03.960
<v Speaker 4>better off for the private because of the private trade.

0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:06.680
<v Speaker 4>As a result of kind of so many dinosaurs would

0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:08.920
<v Speaker 4>not ordinarily be discovered if it were not for the

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:13.240
<v Speaker 4>private trade. And also we have we try where possible,

0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.800
<v Speaker 4>and of course no one is perfect. We have managed

0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.760
<v Speaker 4>to make privately discovered dinosaur fossils to be able to

0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:23.520
<v Speaker 4>find their way to museums as a result of private buyers.

0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 4>So last year we had a high profile sale of

0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:31.360
<v Speaker 4>a completely new species which we acquired. We showed to

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.880
<v Speaker 4>the Natural History Museum in the UK. They loved the specimen,

0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 4>they really wanted it. They said this would be a

0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 4>transformative piece for their collection, and then we placed it

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 4>on kind of unconditional reserve for them and went out

0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 4>and tried to find a private buyer, and six to

0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:50.280
<v Speaker 4>nine months later we found a private collector who agreed

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.000
<v Speaker 4>to acquire it for the museum and also make funds

0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 4>available for research. So that's an instance where because of

0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:59.040
<v Speaker 4>the private trade, we've been able to do something good

0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:02.360
<v Speaker 4>for kind of the public and for the museums that

0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:03.000
<v Speaker 4>we work with.

0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 1>That makes a ton of sense, of course, the fact

0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:07.440
<v Speaker 1>that if there's a lot of money in the space,

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.440
<v Speaker 1>then you elicit more discovery and then it's good for science, etc.

0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:15.719
<v Speaker 1>Those agreements where it's like Okay, I buy a dinosaur

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.360
<v Speaker 1>and then I put it in a museum. Is there

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 1>a time component? Can I ever take it back eventually?

0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 1>Like okay, I agree to places for ten years or

0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:26.360
<v Speaker 1>two years or something, or am I expected to sort

0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 1>of permanently give it to the museum to.

0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:32.680
<v Speaker 4>Hold it's case dependent. So are there are a lot

0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:37.560
<v Speaker 4>of museums that will shy away or completely forbid interaction

0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.120
<v Speaker 4>with the private market, and then there are some which

0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 4>are much more willing or excited to do so. And

0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 4>you know, I understand, I understand the sensitivities around it,

0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 4>but each museum is different. You know, there are many

0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 4>that will just not accept a loan full stop. But

0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:57.280
<v Speaker 4>you have to kind of really try to build trust,

0:30:57.480 --> 0:31:00.480
<v Speaker 4>and you know, for example, be very upfront with museum.

0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 4>I'm I'm arranging this loan not because I want to

0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 4>increase the value of the specimen so it can be

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.000
<v Speaker 4>sold at auction in three years time. And this is

0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:11.120
<v Speaker 4>how I will make you feel comfortable. This is the

0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:14.320
<v Speaker 4>private buyer. His plan is genuinely to donate it. And

0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:18.080
<v Speaker 4>it's quite a it's quite an interesting opportunity really because

0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 4>as we entered the dinosaur fossil space, you know, we

0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:23.600
<v Speaker 4>realize that, you know, when you visit an art museum,

0:31:23.720 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 4>you look on the walls and you see kind of

0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:28.960
<v Speaker 4>lines of art patrons, and when you visit the natural

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 4>history museums, that doesn't really exist because there isn't that

0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:35.680
<v Speaker 4>same ecosystem for kind of you know, patron groups of

0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:38.920
<v Speaker 4>friends or collectors and and that because it's just a

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 4>it's a it's a recently developing market. So hopefully, and

0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.280
<v Speaker 4>of course, you know, like with every market, there's the

0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 4>benefits and the disadvantages that the market will kind of

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:51.640
<v Speaker 4>cultivate the next generation of patrons that will interact with museums.

0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I don't know what Ken Griffin's plan is

0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:57.400
<v Speaker 4>for APEX, but you know he's as as soon as

0:31:57.400 --> 0:32:00.160
<v Speaker 4>he acquired as he acquired it, it's on public display

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 4>in New York, and you know, I think everyone's kind

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 4>of enjoying looking at it and visiting the museum, and

0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 4>I would imagine that maybe you know, that he's thinking

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:10.760
<v Speaker 4>in his mind that he's going to donate it or

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:11.760
<v Speaker 4>gift it at some point.

0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Would you expect there to be more speculative interest in

0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.400
<v Speaker 2>the market as it develops, because that's something we're very

0:32:18.480 --> 0:32:20.880
<v Speaker 2>used to seeing in the art market, right someone buys

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:23.680
<v Speaker 2>a painting and thinks of it as an investment, not

0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:26.360
<v Speaker 2>just something nice to hang on their wall. Are we

0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:29.360
<v Speaker 2>going to start to see the same thing with dinosaur bones?

0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:33.280
<v Speaker 4>I think we have seen that. People often come to

0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:35.280
<v Speaker 4>us and say, okay, would you recommend? And I have

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.600
<v Speaker 4>it with friends friends. You know, when I meet my

0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 4>school friends, they always say, come on, sell, find me

0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:43.800
<v Speaker 4>a bone. And I always say, it's kind of consistent.

0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:45.920
<v Speaker 4>It's my best friends always I can't believe you've not

0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:49.000
<v Speaker 4>found me at Triceratopscott And I always say, you you

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:52.880
<v Speaker 4>you can't. You can't buy as an investor. You have

0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 4>to buy because you love you love it. You you're

0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:58.680
<v Speaker 4>kind of inspired by the history, by the you know,

0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.360
<v Speaker 4>it's it's it is, it's or inspiring to stand in

0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:04.080
<v Speaker 4>front of a kind of sixty six million years old

0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:07.280
<v Speaker 4>creature that roam the earth and it's it's jaw dropping.

0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:10.160
<v Speaker 4>But I don't I don't believe in kind of buying

0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:14.000
<v Speaker 4>for speculative reasons because there are so many unknowns. You know.

0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:17.280
<v Speaker 4>It might be that America, the US decides to kind

0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:19.880
<v Speaker 4>of shut the private trade down and suddenly, you know,

0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:21.720
<v Speaker 4>you may be one of the few people in the

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:24.520
<v Speaker 4>world with a trizeerotop skull and good condition, and suddenly

0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:26.680
<v Speaker 4>it's worth a hundred times what you paid for it.

0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 4>It may be that actually property prices go up, and

0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 4>no one has the space for a dinosaur fossil in

0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:34.040
<v Speaker 4>their home anymore. I mean, there's so many variables. There

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.479
<v Speaker 4>has been a lot of speculative buying, and you do

0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 4>see that with pieces that have been acquired at auction

0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 4>and then six months later or one year later, they're

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:43.960
<v Speaker 4>offered for sale again privately as soon as it as

0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:45.920
<v Speaker 4>soon as the auction is finished. And that's not how

0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:48.520
<v Speaker 4>the behavior of kind of a genuine collector who wants

0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 4>to acquire and live with something for decades I really

0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:53.880
<v Speaker 4>don't enjoy. And I you know, working with people who

0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:55.760
<v Speaker 4>have that that is their plan. You have to just

0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.560
<v Speaker 4>trust that. You know, you do your research and your

0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:01.840
<v Speaker 4>due diligence, and you acquire at the fair market value.

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:04.880
<v Speaker 4>Especially in this space, it's unreasonable and it should be

0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:07.240
<v Speaker 4>kind of a massive red flag for someone to sell

0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.640
<v Speaker 4>you something which is kind of under the prices of

0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:12.879
<v Speaker 4>the current market because it's so competitive. All you can

0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.560
<v Speaker 4>do is kind of acquire at a fair value with

0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.360
<v Speaker 4>an honest description of what you're buying, with an understanding

0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:20.759
<v Speaker 4>of exactly how good it is, how complete it is.

0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:23.759
<v Speaker 4>And we can go into for example, what to look

0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:27.360
<v Speaker 4>for when acquiring a dinosaur fossil, like, why, what gives

0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:27.920
<v Speaker 4>it value?

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Great? Tell us?

0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Wait, can I ask a question before you go into that?

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 2>More generally, do bones from carnivores seem to have more

0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:36.680
<v Speaker 2>value than bones from herbivores.

0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:39.080
<v Speaker 4>Yes. People come to us and say, I want teeth,

0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:41.799
<v Speaker 4>I want something scary, I want something that I can

0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.719
<v Speaker 4>put in my home. You come around the corner and

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:46.160
<v Speaker 4>it gives you the fright of your life. Generally speaking,

0:34:46.360 --> 0:34:50.160
<v Speaker 4>kind of various animals which are kind of meatita skeletons,

0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:56.240
<v Speaker 4>t Rex, Gorgosaurus, Alisaurus, juvenile t Rex, juvenile Alisaurus, et cetera.

0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.879
<v Speaker 4>They're way more sought after than very competitive. I mean,

0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 4>you know, if I found a t rex skull in

0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:04.880
<v Speaker 4>great condition, with all the bells and whistles, there's a

0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:07.719
<v Speaker 4>q of five six people kind of waiting for it,

0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:10.680
<v Speaker 4>ready to acquire it from an email photo, to send

0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:14.279
<v Speaker 4>money in advance, waiting for it to come. Herbivores aren't

0:35:14.320 --> 0:35:17.600
<v Speaker 4>as popular, but then again, the iconic herbival is, like

0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:21.520
<v Speaker 4>a triceratops skull, is very popular. What I hope to happen.

0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:24.760
<v Speaker 4>And this comes to value and where we distinguish ourselves

0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:27.799
<v Speaker 4>from other dinosaur dealers. Is that I would hope that

0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:30.920
<v Speaker 4>people kind of increasingly look at actually what they're buying,

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:33.440
<v Speaker 4>you know, not just the brand. Am I buying a

0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:35.040
<v Speaker 4>t rex? Am I buying a Triceotops?

0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:35.160
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:38.320
<v Speaker 4>Am I buying something that is colored on a document

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 4>a bone map and described as being very complete. That's

0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:44.440
<v Speaker 4>not how I would suggest anybody to deal in dinosaur fossils.

0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:48.800
<v Speaker 4>You need to understand what is the kind of anticipated

0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:52.160
<v Speaker 4>or the usual condition of that particular type of specimen.

0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 4>So some specimens are usually discovered much more complete than others,

0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:59.440
<v Speaker 4>so you may buy For example, I saw the Nanosaurus skeleton,

0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:02.719
<v Speaker 4>which is a small Jurassic skeleton about a meter and

0:36:02.760 --> 0:36:06.040
<v Speaker 4>a half one hundred and fifty million years old. They're

0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:09.480
<v Speaker 4>usually discovered very incomplete because they're very they're small, the

0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:12.160
<v Speaker 4>bones are brittle. There are very few skulls that have

0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:15.560
<v Speaker 4>ever been found. If you have a Nanosaurus skeleton that

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.480
<v Speaker 4>might have kind of fifty percent of the bones represented

0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.239
<v Speaker 4>and some of the kind of feet, the claws, or

0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:25.320
<v Speaker 4>the you know, they're then that's amazing. But fifty percent

0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:29.760
<v Speaker 4>of a larger herbivore with kind of thick, durable bones

0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.280
<v Speaker 4>like a triceratops is actually not as interesting or as exciting.

0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:36.239
<v Speaker 4>And also it doesn't matter how many bones are there,

0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:37.960
<v Speaker 4>but actually what are the key bones? You know, what

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 4>are you looking for in value or in kind of

0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:44.319
<v Speaker 4>historical interest. So t rex skull, Let's say you buy

0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:46.200
<v Speaker 4>a t rex skull, but all the teeth are not original,

0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:49.200
<v Speaker 4>you know, that's a pretty crazy thing to do. Or

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:52.040
<v Speaker 4>a triceratops skull, which is iconic because of its you know,

0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 4>it's the three horned dinosaur. It's got these amazing horns

0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:58.279
<v Speaker 4>that you know, descend out of its send out of

0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:02.560
<v Speaker 4>its skull. It doesn't matter how many parts, how much

0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:04.120
<v Speaker 4>of the frill you have, or how much of the

0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:06.359
<v Speaker 4>kind of lower jaw you have. What you want is

0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.000
<v Speaker 4>you want. You need those horns to be there. And

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.359
<v Speaker 4>so what I think will happened over time is that

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:14.400
<v Speaker 4>holistically people will look at dinosa fossils and say, I

0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:17.960
<v Speaker 4>don't care. It's not about is the branding is important,

0:37:17.960 --> 0:37:21.240
<v Speaker 4>but it's more about you know what am I buying exactly?

0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:24.640
<v Speaker 4>You know, forgetting how the industry used to work in

0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:28.680
<v Speaker 4>the past, and actually kind of taking a much more measured, slower,

0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.439
<v Speaker 4>deeper kind of investigatory kind of analysis as to what's

0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:35.360
<v Speaker 4>complete and what's not complete, what's interesting in what's not complete.

0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.200
<v Speaker 4>Sorry that I give you very long answers to each

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 4>of your questions, But.

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:40.640
<v Speaker 1>No, no, this is there's so much information that it's

0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:42.800
<v Speaker 1>totally fine. I actually want to go back to something

0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 1>you said, because when you think about market structure, you

0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:51.000
<v Speaker 1>did say one thing that sort of feels familiar, perhaps,

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:55.040
<v Speaker 1>which is that you could get a better shot at

0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 1>acquiring something at a good price if you buy it

0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:00.880
<v Speaker 1>a little bit earlier in the process, that by the

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:07.120
<v Speaker 1>time the dinosaur has been completely excavated and documented and assembled,

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:09.719
<v Speaker 1>et cetera, it's going to go to some you know,

0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 1>rich collector and the golf or something like that. Talk

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.920
<v Speaker 1>to us a little bit more. Some of these collectors

0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:18.960
<v Speaker 1>or people who are waiting for that t rex skull

0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 1>or whatever. How early can they, if they're so inclined,

0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:28.280
<v Speaker 1>get in on the process. Can they front money towards

0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:32.440
<v Speaker 1>a paleontologist who has a good reason to think there

0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:35.640
<v Speaker 1>might be something there? Can they, like, you know, can

0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:40.160
<v Speaker 1>they buy a stake of an excavation project period, like

0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:46.040
<v Speaker 1>for the active collector? Essentially, Yeah, that's yeah, that's right, VC,

0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 1>and some sort like buy a stake in the expedition.

0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.560
<v Speaker 4>Yes, they do. I don't think a private collector should

0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 4>do that. Okay, I guess if you can and you

0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:57.200
<v Speaker 4>have the money, and it's fun and it's kind of exciting,

0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:00.279
<v Speaker 4>fair enough, But but I don't recommend someone to do

0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:00.759
<v Speaker 4>it that way.

0:39:00.880 --> 0:39:02.359
<v Speaker 1>How come very high risk.

0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:06.560
<v Speaker 4>You may end up acquiring or finding a dinosaur skeleton

0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:08.279
<v Speaker 4>that you actually don't have the space for, or you

0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:11.600
<v Speaker 4>don't want, or is not what you ideally wanted. You know,

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.279
<v Speaker 4>very hard to manage. You know, if you're if you're

0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:16.440
<v Speaker 4>sitting in New York or you're sitting in London, you

0:39:16.480 --> 0:39:19.400
<v Speaker 4>need to trust that the team that you are working with.

0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:20.880
<v Speaker 4>I mean, when they find a bone, how do you

0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:22.640
<v Speaker 4>know they're not putting it in their pocket? You know?

0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:25.439
<v Speaker 4>How how do you know your I mean we're talking

0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.600
<v Speaker 4>about really remote places where you have no idea. You know,

0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 4>I had a you know. There are also all types

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.440
<v Speaker 4>of things, like there are situations where you know, you

0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.640
<v Speaker 4>you acquire something and the seller holds back a couple

0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 4>of bones, and then six months later you get a

0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:42.520
<v Speaker 4>phone call saying, by the way, I did find a

0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:45.600
<v Speaker 4>couple other bones that you would really want to buy. Now,

0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:48.759
<v Speaker 4>now I'm going to extort you for the Yeah, that's

0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:51.080
<v Speaker 4>happened too many times to me. So yeah, I think

0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:54.600
<v Speaker 4>I've as a dealer. I feel like I've aged disproportionately

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:56.560
<v Speaker 4>to my age. But but you need to kind of

0:39:56.560 --> 0:39:59.120
<v Speaker 4>work with a small number of people you trust and

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:03.200
<v Speaker 4>try wherever possible because life is short to to kind

0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:06.359
<v Speaker 4>of delegate the headache and the stress and the risk.

0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:10.560
<v Speaker 1>In my opinion, is anyone working on bringing dinosaurs back

0:40:10.560 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 1>to life.

0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:13.719
<v Speaker 2>This would be the ultimate risk for the asset class.

0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:14.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Right now we have new supplies of dinosaur bones.

0:40:16.880 --> 0:40:19.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, I know that's sort of fantastical, right

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:21.840
<v Speaker 1>because of Jurassic Park. You know, may we're going to

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.920
<v Speaker 1>find a little bit of DNA and some amber somewhere.

0:40:25.160 --> 0:40:27.479
<v Speaker 1>But it's not like like, wasn't there something they brought

0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:30.239
<v Speaker 1>a wolf? There's some there was some cover of a

0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:33.200
<v Speaker 1>magazine recently and they said, oh, this wolf that had

0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:36.200
<v Speaker 1>gone extinct, we actually like brought it back somehow. Isn't

0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:41.320
<v Speaker 1>there some work being done on science and reviving extinct species?

0:40:41.400 --> 0:40:44.280
<v Speaker 4>I think there are. There are the obvious ethical issues

0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:46.360
<v Speaker 4>of it. I mean, you know, when you once you

0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:48.920
<v Speaker 4>open Pandora's box and you start kind of bringing back

0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:52.160
<v Speaker 4>to life. You know, where does it endure? People always

0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:54.600
<v Speaker 4>talking about I didn't think Elo Musk did a did

0:40:54.680 --> 0:40:57.719
<v Speaker 4>a post recently about Jurassic Park. I mean, so, I'm

0:40:57.719 --> 0:40:59.719
<v Speaker 4>sure it will happen in our lifetime. Whether it will

0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:00.279
<v Speaker 4>be good, don't know.

0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:03.759
<v Speaker 1>I don't know we will Well, you're sure it will

0:41:03.800 --> 0:41:04.399
<v Speaker 1>happen in our.

0:41:04.280 --> 0:41:06.960
<v Speaker 4>Life, definitely, don't you think with the kind of advent

0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:09.839
<v Speaker 4>of AI and are we going to be surrounded by

0:41:09.840 --> 0:41:13.040
<v Speaker 4>dinosaurs in twenty years time? Yeah, the Bloomberg office headquarters

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.080
<v Speaker 4>is going to have triceratops roaming it.

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh, this is a I mean, this is a this

0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:22.600
<v Speaker 1>is a big call. Yeah. I was expecting, particularly someone

0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:25.560
<v Speaker 1>who's a pro, it's like, oh, yeah, this is just parks.

0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:28.960
<v Speaker 4>If I had to be, I bet they're not going

0:41:28.960 --> 0:41:30.080
<v Speaker 4>to They're not going to reappear.

0:41:30.160 --> 0:41:32.440
<v Speaker 1>But you know, okay, but I'm just.

0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Trying to certain they would They would not be as

0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:38.279
<v Speaker 2>plentiful as to be in the Bloomberg office in our lifetimes.

0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:39.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure of that. At least.

0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:41.759
<v Speaker 1>You know, when you ask a little kid what they

0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:44.239
<v Speaker 1>want to be, they either want to be, like, you know,

0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:47.439
<v Speaker 1>a popular thing to be a paleontologist, and I can't

0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:50.279
<v Speaker 1>imagine buying large. There's a lot of paleontology jobs. But

0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:54.040
<v Speaker 1>given the trends, would you say this is becoming a

0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:58.520
<v Speaker 1>more plausible career option If there's more money in the

0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:02.960
<v Speaker 1>space and then more economic reason to find dinosaurs, could

0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:04.960
<v Speaker 1>this be that maybe more kids get to live out

0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:07.880
<v Speaker 1>their dreams of being a palaeontologist one hundred percent.

0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:10.560
<v Speaker 4>If you imagine a lot of these private collectors will

0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.360
<v Speaker 4>set up private museums, and I would go one step further.

0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:17.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, that's exactly that underscores the interest in dinosaur

0:42:17.960 --> 0:42:20.600
<v Speaker 4>fossils because and this is why we kind of pivoted

0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:23.840
<v Speaker 4>to this this market. Because if you type into Google

0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:27.800
<v Speaker 4>Modeliani or Jeff Coons and you look at the search results,

0:42:27.920 --> 0:42:30.560
<v Speaker 4>the number of people who search have searched for Jeff

0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:34.200
<v Speaker 4>Cuons or whatever, it's totally eclipsed by the search is

0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:38.359
<v Speaker 4>for triceratops or a t rex. There's universal interest in

0:42:38.400 --> 0:42:41.080
<v Speaker 4>these dinosaurs, and actually, whatever we do in art Fair,

0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:44.160
<v Speaker 4>we're kind of inundated by children and by people of

0:42:44.200 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 4>all ages who come up to us and say isn't

0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:48.120
<v Speaker 4>that fifty million? Isn't that one hundred million? I say, no,

0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:49.839
<v Speaker 4>it's it's actually half a million, or or no, it's

0:42:50.000 --> 0:42:52.360
<v Speaker 4>it's fifty five pounds, or it's eight and a half

0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:55.120
<v Speaker 4>seven thousand for a fast sale. But you know, but

0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:00.600
<v Speaker 4>that's the that's that explains why dinosaurs have kind of

0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:05.800
<v Speaker 4>exploded in price, because people, especially children, love them and

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:09.319
<v Speaker 4>they are much more universally admired than a lot of

0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:12.560
<v Speaker 4>the modern masters or kind of art market categories that

0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:15.040
<v Speaker 4>will fall out of favor every five or ten years. Yeah,

0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:16.920
<v Speaker 4>I agree with you kind of you're call on that.

0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:20.000
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell my kids tonight that maybe they should go.

0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Into Thank you so much.

0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:21.560
<v Speaker 3>That was.

0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:23.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's fantastic, Thank you so much.

0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:26.279
<v Speaker 4>Pleasure to meet you guys, and thank you for the opportunity.

0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we're going to be in London in May,

0:43:28.360 --> 0:43:30.840
<v Speaker 2>so we might actually take up our love.

0:43:30.760 --> 0:43:31.840
<v Speaker 1>To love to see it.

0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:34.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm looking forward and yeah, please send me a message

0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:36.680
<v Speaker 4>and come over and I'll show you some cool things.

0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Great pack all.

0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:51.560
<v Speaker 4>Of that, Joe.

0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.120
<v Speaker 2>That was a really fun conversation. There is something to

0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.320
<v Speaker 2>that final point from Salvi, this idea that there is

0:43:56.360 --> 0:44:00.840
<v Speaker 2>a universality of interest in dinosaurs. Right, It feels like everyone,

0:44:01.840 --> 0:44:04.680
<v Speaker 2>if you have any sort of humanity in you, has

0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:07.719
<v Speaker 2>gone through a dinosaur stage when you were a kid.

0:44:08.160 --> 0:44:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely no, And you know this idea that art will

0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:12.480
<v Speaker 1>go in and out of.

0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Style, and dinosaurs are forever.

0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:19.239
<v Speaker 1>Dinosaurs are forever, and so probably from the perspective of

0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:22.239
<v Speaker 1>a collector or a museum and you want to have

0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:24.759
<v Speaker 1>a lot of interest, dinosaurs are the way to go.

0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:28.200
<v Speaker 1>And then just this idea that I do imagine that

0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:30.799
<v Speaker 1>there isn't you know. I talked about this a little

0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:35.400
<v Speaker 1>bit of anxiety about there being private trade and ownership

0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.839
<v Speaker 1>of them. But if the plus side is that it

0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:43.560
<v Speaker 1>makes excavation more economically viable, and if in many of

0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 1>these instances the dinosaurs do end up in museums for

0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:51.080
<v Speaker 1>scientists to study regardless, it sounds like a win win.

0:44:51.360 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 1>For the most part, it sounds pretty good.

0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:56.840
<v Speaker 2>I think there are still some environmental issues. We probably

0:44:56.840 --> 0:44:58.440
<v Speaker 2>should have talked about this a little bit, but there

0:44:58.480 --> 0:45:01.600
<v Speaker 2>are still some environmental concerns about large scale digs. I know,

0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:05.919
<v Speaker 2>the mammoth bone industry or mammoth tusk I can't talk

0:45:06.000 --> 0:45:10.399
<v Speaker 2>industry in Russia has been something of an issue, so

0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:11.640
<v Speaker 2>that could.

0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:13.680
<v Speaker 1>Be also something to think about factor.

0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.320
<v Speaker 2>But I do think like crowding in that private capital,

0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean clearly has led to some interesting discoveries already,

0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:24.440
<v Speaker 2>which Sal was talking about, this idea that they discovered

0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:26.840
<v Speaker 2>a new species. By the way, I want to go

0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:31.560
<v Speaker 2>back to the beginning of the conversation. So Sal mentioned

0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:36.640
<v Speaker 2>a nanosaurus skeleton. Here is a nanosaurus. What does that

0:45:36.680 --> 0:45:37.359
<v Speaker 2>look like to you?

0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:40.279
<v Speaker 1>It ken looks like a chicken a little bit.

0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, to me, it looks exactly like a pheasant. This

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:49.839
<v Speaker 2>is the same This is the same thing. Okay, great, right, capitulation.

0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:53.279
<v Speaker 1>You're right, there's great. This is a good example of

0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:55.800
<v Speaker 1>a I wouldn't have made that, but yes, and has.

0:45:55.680 --> 0:45:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Those little arm By the way, one other thing you

0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:02.280
<v Speaker 2>were talking about the gold plated dinosaur skeleton in Miami,

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:05.319
<v Speaker 2>our producer Carmen points out that it is not, in

0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:08.239
<v Speaker 2>fact a dinosaur skeleton. It's a wooly mammoth skeleton. So

0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.120
<v Speaker 2>your kids have more ammunition now to make fun of

0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:13.279
<v Speaker 2>you for misidentifying dinosaurs.

0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, the thing is, I really thought that I

0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:19.840
<v Speaker 1>didn't know, So what's a wooly mammoth that's not a dinosaur.

0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:23.400
<v Speaker 2>That's just harry elephant, a prehistoric elephant.

0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:26.319
<v Speaker 1>They died, but they were also prehistoric.

0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:28.320
<v Speaker 2>I think, so yeah, right.

0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:28.799
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense.

0:46:28.800 --> 0:46:30.799
<v Speaker 2>God, I feel like we're going to get emails from

0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.960
<v Speaker 2>a million, maybe not a million, a few paleontologists out

0:46:33.960 --> 0:46:37.760
<v Speaker 2>there complaining about some of our classifications. So I apologize

0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:39.040
<v Speaker 2>in advance if you got that wrong.

0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:41.239
<v Speaker 1>I really am very ignorant about this. If it looks

0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.360
<v Speaker 1>like an old animal, I just assume it's a dinosaur.

0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:45.800
<v Speaker 1>That's my definition of a dinosaur.

0:46:46.000 --> 0:46:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Prehistoric mammal, I think is an accurate way of describing

0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:51.480
<v Speaker 2>wooly mammoths.

0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:56.840
<v Speaker 1>Also, look at a pterodactyl, that's a dinosaur. I'm sorry.

0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, so I looked this up after you mentioned that

0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:02.759
<v Speaker 2>because I was very surprised I did not know this.

0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>It's from a category that is very closely related to dinosaurs.

0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:12.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's the way people make distinctions between like silosaurs

0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:16.359
<v Speaker 2>and dinosaurs. I don't really understand them, all those distinctions,

0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:19.360
<v Speaker 2>but apparently you know scientific.

0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Propertualness such that. And it is from the Jurassic period. Okay,

0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:25.520
<v Speaker 1>it's from the late Jurassic. It's a dinosaur.

0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I have something embarrassing to emit, which is for the

0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:30.440
<v Speaker 2>longest time I kept saying petrodactyl, and.

0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:32.640
<v Speaker 1>So you're not the first. I'm sure.

0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:33.640
<v Speaker 3>All right?

0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Shall we leave it there?

0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Let's leave it there.

0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.120
<v Speaker 2>Hey, this has been another episode of the Odd Loots podcast.

0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

0:47:40.920 --> 0:47:43.600
<v Speaker 1>And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, dash O

0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:50.319
<v Speaker 1>Bennett at Dashbot, and Cale Brooks at cal Brooks. And

0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:52.719
<v Speaker 1>for more odd Laws content, go to Bloomberg dot com

0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:55.000
<v Speaker 1>slash odd Lots, where the Daily News letterned all of

0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:57.560
<v Speaker 1>our episodes and you can chat about all these topics

0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:02.000
<v Speaker 1>twenty four to seven in our discord dot gg slash outlocks.

0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:04.640
<v Speaker 2>And if you enjoy Oddlocks, if you like it when

0:48:04.640 --> 0:48:07.080
<v Speaker 2>we talk about the fossil market, then please leave us

0:48:07.080 --> 0:48:10.360
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0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:12.600
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