1
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 1: So Rene, let's get right into it. We have had

2
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 1: a number of developments.

3
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,040
Speaker 2: There has been a large seismic change in the since

4
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:24,599
Speaker 2: forty ideas ago.

5
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,240
Speaker 3: It's crazy, I.

6
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:27,479
Speaker 1: Have to say, on the face of it.

7
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 4: You know, obviously we're going to talk mostly in this

8
00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 4: very short twenty minute episode about the goings on of

9
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 4: the Osaka Dibaco La fer de Soca. But I have

10
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,800
Speaker 4: to say, on the face of it, my opinions haven't changed.

11
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 4: I still think the media is being totally ridiculous about this.

12
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 4: And now we have an added player in the mix,

13
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,160
Speaker 4: which is the federations.

14
00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 1: The Slam countries have come down.

15
00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 4: They issued her basically a severe warning, telling her if

16
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 4: she were to keep this up, she would get fined

17
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 4: increasing amounts or worse, the implication being a possible default.

18
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,160
Speaker 4: And then she called her bluff and was like, bye.

19
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 1: So what is going on?

20
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 4: How dumb are these bodies for weighing in and turning

21
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,759
Speaker 4: a lateral molehill into a mountain. In my opinion, that's

22
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,479
Speaker 4: the only way I could read this, because my thoughts

23
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 4: on Naomi haven't really changed. My thoughts on what the

24
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,479
Speaker 4: rest of the tennis ecosystem could have done or should

25
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 4: have done are myriad, but generally mired in disappointment. This

26
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 4: was such an unforced error by almost everyone involved, maybe

27
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 4: including Nami Osaka too, but unforced errors are rife in

28
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,000
Speaker 4: this situation, and it's just sort of sad to see.

29
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 2: This is why you and I good together, I think

30
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, because we do.

31
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,760
Speaker 3: We agree a lot, but we disagree.

32
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,639
Speaker 2: We don't disagree vehemently often, but we do disagree at times. Listen,

33
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 2: from the get go, Naomi is the one that needs

34
00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: to Naomi has to take responsibility for the start of this, Okay,

35
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,360
Speaker 2: by putting out those statement before the tournament started was

36
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 2: and I think, and as she now agrees, because she

37
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 2: said it in her statements, there was a mistake. Putting

38
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 2: out that statement before the tournament was a mistake. I

39
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 2: think if there could be a do over, the do

40
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,359
Speaker 2: over would have been talking to the federation about this privately,

41
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 2: to try and allow them to work with her somehow

42
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 2: behind the scenes.

43
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 3: Because to put it out publicly, and.

44
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 2: Particularly the French, let's face it, and they don't like

45
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 2: to be told what to do, all right, I mean,

46
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,360
Speaker 2: they're notoriously probably the most difficult federation. I mean Look,

47
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 2: they announced that they were changing the dates of the

48
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,280
Speaker 2: French Open last year without even consulting the ATP of WTA.

49
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 3: They were just like, we're going to have it now.

50
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,560
Speaker 2: So you know, players were like, what the f their

51
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,280
Speaker 2: federations were like or what the f But the French

52
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 2: were like, you know what I mean. So I think

53
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 2: from I've spoken to someone up very high up in

54
00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 2: another federation that called me just to sort of gather

55
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,959
Speaker 2: some information, gather some different thoughts from players, from past players.

56
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 3: From media.

57
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 2: And you know, the word on the street was she

58
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,919
Speaker 2: did not go to the federation at all to discuss this.

59
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,959
Speaker 3: She just blanket statement put that out.

60
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 2: And you can imagine that they especially going through Look,

61
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 2: the federations are struggling, They've got no fans from the stands,

62
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 2: they're not.

63
00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 3: Getting any money. They're really bleeding money big time, and

64
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 3: this is a blow to them.

65
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,680
Speaker 2: She's the biggest name outside of Serena in the women's straw.

66
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 2: For her to sort of make a statement of like, look,

67
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 2: I'm struggling, but I'm not going to do any press

68
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: was not a great idea. And I'm sure if she

69
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,320
Speaker 2: could do it again, she would do it again and

70
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 2: then they could work with her a little bit behind

71
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 2: the scenes.

72
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 3: But as soon as that happened, then they got.

73
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 2: Their you know, their gills out and they you know,

74
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 2: puffing their chests up and like, how dare you? So

75
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 2: the flip side of it, Caitlin and we talked about

76
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,960
Speaker 2: this yesterday, is it's not fair for one player not

77
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 2: to do press, okay, because when you think about Serena,

78
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 2: when you think about all the other top women players.

79
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,720
Speaker 3: They all have to go to press and it's.

80
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: About a good i'd say hour at least, you know,

81
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 2: between going to the press conference, going to the individual TVs.

82
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 2: They've got to walk themselves over to the Tennis channel,

83
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 2: They've got to go to the French Federation TV, They've

84
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 2: got to go to you know, Wow Wow for Naomi

85
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,720
Speaker 2: or Eurosport. There's all a lot of different rights holders

86
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 2: that every single player has to appear at. Believe me

87
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,280
Speaker 2: because I know how it works, because they have to

88
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 2: wait for them often because oh they can't they're not

89
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: coming to ESPN because they're still at Eurosport or whatever.

90
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,720
Speaker 3: So it is a long process.

91
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 2: After these top players win a match or lose that

92
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 2: they have to go and appear at these places, so

93
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,240
Speaker 2: it does take a lot of time out of a

94
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 2: top players to day. So Naomi not doing the press

95
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,480
Speaker 2: is really it is a disadvantage for the top other

96
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,640
Speaker 2: top players because they are going to do all of

97
00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,920
Speaker 2: those and so rather than go back to the hotel,

98
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 2: relax and chill out and get away from all.

99
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 3: The stress, all these other players have to deal with it.

100
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,919
Speaker 2: So for the federations, they're putting it, you know, they're

101
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,280
Speaker 2: putting their their their flag in the sand, saying this

102
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 2: is the line. It's not fair for everybody else and

103
00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 2: you should not be getting preferential treatment. Having said that, yes,

104
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 2: it was a complete shit show once they only put

105
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 2: that out and you know, let's face it, the French

106
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,160
Speaker 2: Federation weren't having anything about it.

107
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 3: The French Federation.

108
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,360
Speaker 2: I think the tournament director of French Oven made a

109
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,159
Speaker 2: real bad decision coming out and being so forceful the

110
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 2: way he.

111
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 3: Was at the beginning.

112
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,279
Speaker 2: I think he could have handled that a lot better.

113
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,799
Speaker 2: And in the end, you know, Naomi is struggling.

114
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 3: That is the bottom line. Naomi is struggling whether or

115
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 3: not some people believe her. The players, as we talked.

116
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,039
Speaker 2: About, aren't exactly supportive of her. Although it was really

117
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,920
Speaker 2: nice to see a lot of them get on her

118
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,880
Speaker 2: Twitter and on her Facebook story, on her Instagram and

119
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,160
Speaker 2: sort of support her really vehemently. Venus and Sloan Coco.

120
00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,040
Speaker 2: I don't know who else is written in that sense.

121
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 2: I haven't looked, but it was really nice to see

122
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,480
Speaker 2: him step up and sort of let her know that they.

123
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,159
Speaker 3: Were supportive of her. So this is this.

124
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 2: Is a big moment for the federations to do better

125
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 2: with the press and make sure that the right people

126
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 2: are in those rooms, and to also be as supportive

127
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,479
Speaker 2: as possible at times for the players.

128
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 4: I want to talk about this from this perspective.

129
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 1: I think you know.

130
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 4: Your read on this is as I think empathetic and

131
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,480
Speaker 4: outward facing as somebody who's been in the tennis world

132
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,479
Speaker 4: for decades that I've heard. I also want to just

133
00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 4: bring up that for the most part, the larger body

134
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 4: of people for whom Naomi resonates and who she speaks

135
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,880
Speaker 4: to and who she can bring into the sport, younger people,

136
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 4: international people, people of color, women basically have unilaterally decided

137
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,840
Speaker 4: that tennis has shot itself in the foot and losing

138
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,159
Speaker 4: under any circumstances. The second biggest name, let's call it

139
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 4: after Serena in the Certainly women's ecosystem is insane and

140
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 4: I can't help but macro agree with that. I mean,

141
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 4: I'm not taking issue with any of the micro points

142
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 4: that you're making. I think a very very smart response

143
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 4: on the part of the French, which if they are

144
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 4: capable of having a measured, thoughtful response, the past has

145
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 4: not proven so, but a very thoughtful response would have

146
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 4: been like, Look, the finds are.

147
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 1: Set up for this very reason.

148
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 4: You're right, it's an advantage for her to be able

149
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 4: to have an extra hour to herself and whatever attendant

150
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 4: you know, tough questioning or mental you know, sort of

151
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 4: strain that puts on her. So the finds are set

152
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 4: up for a reason. But obviously this can't continue because

153
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 4: we don't want to set a precedent.

154
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 1: So let's sit down.

155
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 4: Let's decide as for SLAM Nations to sit down maybe

156
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 4: with her team and some other folks around the ecosystem,

157
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,240
Speaker 4: people like you who've been on both sides of this,

158
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 4: and figure out what are the sort of granular things

159
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 4: like the things we spoke about the other day, that

160
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 4: could make the press better, that could make the press

161
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 4: a little bit more reflective of the modern cultural conversation

162
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 4: that perhaps would be have a little bit more patience.

163
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 1: You know.

164
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 4: I was really disappointed to see a lot of folks

165
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 4: in the tennis media basically asking for receipts, saying well,

166
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 4: how could she be?

167
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 1: You know, what is this mental illness? What is this?

168
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: You know? And it's like, it's not your business, is

169
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 1: what it is.

170
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,120
Speaker 4: You know, if a person is telling you they're they're

171
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 4: not in a good place, then your first instinct should

172
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,560
Speaker 4: be empathy and to believe them, not asking for, you know,

173
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 4: a doctor's diagnosis.

174
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 1: You know.

175
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 4: So I just want to sort of say, the articles

176
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 4: that are being written about this outside of our world

177
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 4: are one thousand percent in condemnation of the tennis world

178
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,440
Speaker 4: in a way that I have a hard time not

179
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 4: being empathetic with too.

180
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: You know, Like, I.

181
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 4: Understand what a spot she's put she's put these folks

182
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 4: in again, whether she intended to or not. I truly think,

183
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 4: especially now that we've had some more clarifying statements from

184
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,080
Speaker 4: her and then her sister on her.

185
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: Behalf, that she might chance she was literally just sort

186
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: of saying like, hey, I'm not going to do this.

187
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,680
Speaker 4: Here's a heads up out of politeness, you know, don't

188
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 4: I don't actually think she was trying to make a

189
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 4: huge political statement. But even if she, you know, again,

190
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 4: we could have this conversation and why not use it

191
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 4: as an opportunity to bring some of the more archaic

192
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,319
Speaker 4: parts of the tennis world into modernity, whether they like

193
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,319
Speaker 4: it or not. You know, that's the conversation that I

194
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 4: hope we continue to have because I think it's really

195
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,600
Speaker 4: really necessary. But now it's sort of turned into like

196
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,400
Speaker 4: Tennis versus Naomi Osaka and pick aside, and it's sort

197
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,000
Speaker 4: of like, oh god, this is so interesting for our sport.

198
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,280
Speaker 4: It's great for our sport to have this kind of massive,

199
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 4: massive lens. She's been treading on Twitter for four days.

200
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,079
Speaker 4: You know, author Roxane Gay is weighing in, Ava Duvorney

201
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 4: is weighing in, you know, cultural figures, Land titans of

202
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,679
Speaker 4: other industries and other thought spaces are now sort of

203
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 4: having some thoughts about tennis, which I think, again not

204
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,800
Speaker 4: hugely positive that we have the attention and the sort

205
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 4: of dynamics here at play that mean we can you know,

206
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 4: hopefully ultimately retain folks and keep them engaged in the

207
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 4: game and keep them going further. But I can't help

208
00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 4: but think the literal worst thing to do is to

209
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 4: call her bluff and to escalate this to such a

210
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 4: degree instead of saying, okay, you know what, we don't

211
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,880
Speaker 4: love the initial notes app in a very millennial way

212
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 4: that you announced this. It is it is very millennial

213
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 4: to sort of do this, yeah, you know, to sort

214
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 4: of like, you know, not have a high level meeting

215
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 4: with your agent and you know, behind the scenes back

216
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,080
Speaker 4: channel just be like, oh, here's a notes app like bloop.

217
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 1: You know.

218
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 4: On the other hand, like the federation had every choice,

219
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 4: not only the French Federation, but the other Slam country

220
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 4: is enjoining with us to say, hey, listen, we have

221
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,079
Speaker 4: these finds in place for a reason. We'll just give

222
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,679
Speaker 4: her these fines. We'll have to obviously work out something

223
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,240
Speaker 4: long term, so let's sit down with some folks and

224
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 4: figure out what it is she's objecting to and how

225
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 4: we can in fact make this less onerous, because you know,

226
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 4: to imply that press is such a disadvantage to do

227
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,520
Speaker 4: is also sort of problematic. It shouldn't be so problematic

228
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,600
Speaker 4: to do. Of course, you know, players want every minute

229
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 4: of their day to be there to be their own

230
00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 4: tennis players or individual athletes in an individual sport.

231
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 1: And I get why.

232
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 4: You know, it's an opportunity cost to spend a minute

233
00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 4: doing this thing when you could be spending a minute

234
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 4: doing that thing. On the other hand, one hopes that

235
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 4: they are so bought in. And I love when Billy

236
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,480
Speaker 4: Jean King sat down with us and talked about how

237
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,560
Speaker 4: she would love any new players to the tour to

238
00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,720
Speaker 4: get media training to understand the activist history of especially

239
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 4: the Women's Tour, and the way to advocate for yourself

240
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 4: for change for others, and the way to talk to

241
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,560
Speaker 4: the media. Perhaps it isn't so so combative, and the

242
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,199
Speaker 4: media has a lot to answer for. But I also

243
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 4: think if Billy Jean's idea was implemented, where you get

244
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 4: that kind of like boot camp when you first join

245
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 4: the tour, you know a dialogue could be created early

246
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,679
Speaker 4: and so you know, Okay, these tours ultimately have our

247
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 4: backs or should and here's how we can work together

248
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,280
Speaker 4: with them to bring up issues and to make things

249
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,600
Speaker 4: go forward. So I think there's a lot of things

250
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 4: that could happen out of this. It's just dumb to

251
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 4: me that the worst possible things have happened, and now

252
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 4: you've basically got you know, two nuclear armed countries pointing

253
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,560
Speaker 4: nukes at each other instead of what happened, which is

254
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 4: like some you know Camp David esque back channel diplomacy.

255
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

256
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,440
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the w t A does do

257
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 2: some media training, does do you know when the when

258
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,720
Speaker 2: the young players come on, they do this, they call

259
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,960
Speaker 2: them rookie hours, So they do go through a lot

260
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,680
Speaker 2: of the what they need to do, what their expectations are.

261
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is where you get help. This is

262
00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 2: where you and we do have a psychologist that does

263
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 2: work at the w t A. The w t A

264
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 2: is heads and shoulders above the ATP when it comes

265
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 2: to their medical staff and the implementations of various things,

266
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 2: so there definitely.

267
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,719
Speaker 3: Is places for them to go.

268
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,400
Speaker 2: One of my very closest friends is the head of

269
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 2: that department, and I know that over the last thirty

270
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,840
Speaker 2: years she has really worked to try and get get

271
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,559
Speaker 2: things like that implemented. Because she has only ever cared

272
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,959
Speaker 2: about the health and safety of the tennis players. She

273
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,960
Speaker 2: has had to buckheads with many tennis hierarchies about you know,

274
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 2: so pushing back on them and making sure that.

275
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 3: The players are absolutely taken care of.

276
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 2: So this is sad in that respect because I know

277
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,520
Speaker 2: that the WTA, for example, is probably better than most

278
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,560
Speaker 2: associations when it comes to the health and well being

279
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 2: of the players. The flip side of that is that

280
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 2: Naomi didn't reach out and hasn't been reaching out to

281
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 2: the WTA or the Grand Slams.

282
00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 3: She kind of went and did this on her own.

283
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 2: I was a little bit like, as you said, very

284
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,200
Speaker 2: millennial thing to do, to sort of say, okay, well

285
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 2: this is how I feel. I'm just going to put

286
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 2: it out there and then bloop, as she said, push send,

287
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,559
Speaker 2: you know, and then hope for the best. And as

288
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 2: I said, it was a it was a big mistake

289
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 2: on her behalf. I think she would probably do it differently.

290
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,840
Speaker 2: I think she would definitely do it differently.

291
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,959
Speaker 4: Now said she would, you know, I don't. I really

292
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 4: don't think she intended for this to happen. I think

293
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,360
Speaker 4: you no, I would have There's absolutely no.

294
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 1: Differently had she anticipated what was going to happen.

295
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think Naomi is that type of person

296
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 2: to you know, sit down and go the hell Am

297
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 2: I going to screw the French Federation let's do this.

298
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 2: She's not that type of person. I think that she

299
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 2: is incredibly socially awkward. I think she is. She struggles

300
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,760
Speaker 2: on a massive scale when it talks to public. When

301
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 2: it comes to public speaking, she has from day one,

302
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 2: everybody just thought, man, she's.

303
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,960
Speaker 3: Rude or whatever. It's not. It's just it's just how

304
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 3: she is.

305
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,320
Speaker 2: She doesn't like to talk to many people at all,

306
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 2: cap when she's not out there. I mean, I see

307
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: all the players, I'm in the locker rooms, I'm around

308
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:29,480
Speaker 2: these players.

309
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 3: She's not jovial. She's not running around chatting to everyone.

310
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 3: She has small, little micro relationships.

311
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 2: With you know, people like Eager and you know a

312
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: couple of other players, so she'll talk to them, but

313
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 2: it's not like this running dialogue.

314
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 3: She's no, you know, Ash Barty, just.

315
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,920
Speaker 1: The of the players a lounge.

316
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,720
Speaker 3: No, she'd rather be That's.

317
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 4: Great, and we want that spectrum of players and spectrum

318
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 4: of personalities. That's what makes tenus cool. And I would

319
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 4: also say, despite having not a natural ease with public

320
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 4: speaking and talking to the media, and she's spoken about

321
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 4: this because you know, I think she she felt it

322
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 4: as a teen, you know, coming out of the tour

323
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 4: and immediately being plunked down in front of microphones and strangers.

324
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 4: You know, I think to her massive credit. When she

325
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 4: does speak, she speaks so thoughtfully that perhaps that's why

326
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 4: it takes something out of her, because she is struggling

327
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 4: to ask to answer somebody's question in a way that

328
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 4: that does mean she's kind of taking on their premise

329
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 4: or their question or their idea. And you know, I

330
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 4: think it would be a lot easier if her she

331
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 4: was like, nah, next skip, you know, And that maybe

332
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 4: that comes with age, Maybe that comes with experience. Maybe

333
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 4: it just comes with a personality type to be like, oh,

334
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 4: I'm going to defend my boundary here and I'm not

335
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 4: going to take on you know what, Like you were

336
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 4: talking about with Novak Djokovic being asked about nic curious

337
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 4: where he was like, I'm not answering any curious questions.

338
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 4: So you can ask him and I'm gonna be like, next,

339
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,320
Speaker 4: I'm not interested in answering that.

340
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 3: Move on, you know.

341
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 4: And I think that that maybe is a learned skill.

342
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 4: But one thing I do want to talk about since

343
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 4: I brought up Novak Djokovic is.

344
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 3: I have been so.

345
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 1: Impressed.

346
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 4: It's been impressed upon me how amazing having a joint

347
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 4: labor union for the players could be. We've talked about

348
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 4: it in the context of you know, prize money, We've

349
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 4: talked about it in the context of scheduling, and now

350
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 4: we have an opportunity again to say, hey, where are

351
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 4: you ptpa. You guys said you were going to be

352
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 4: a ball about player advocacy, like, let's go and if not,

353
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 4: you guys, then maybe some kind of joint tour could

354
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 4: sort of tackle this and say, hey, listen, we're going

355
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 4: to advocate on.

356
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: Behalf of our our body of players.

357
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 4: We're going to do whatever we feel makes their experience

358
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 4: the best and gives the audience the best performing performance

359
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 4: of tennis on the court. And maybe sometimes that means

360
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 4: changing press obligations. But let's work together and let's figure

361
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 4: out collectively as a body, who and how we want

362
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 4: to empower and change, you know, the system to be

363
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 4: a little bit more beneficial and musually beneficial. Understanding of course,

364
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 4: that tennis media exists largely to trumpet the sport. These

365
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 4: are all stars because of the tennis media, largely, not

366
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 4: only because of their results on the court, which is

367
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 4: not to take away anything from their results on the court.

368
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 4: But you know, you can't always go see a tennis

369
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 4: front of in a person and having the contact and

370
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 4: having the storylines and having the media around it is

371
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 4: an advertisement for the game. And I don't want to

372
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 4: downplay that because I think it's absolutely true that said,

373
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 4: what about a player union, Like, let's go, Novak, get

374
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 4: on the stake.

375
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: We have so many we have so many tasks for you,

376
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: and you said you want to do it, So let's go.

377
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 3: If there was ever a time, this is it.

378
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 2: And I'll be interested because obviously he's playing today will

379
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,600
Speaker 2: be interested to hear. I'm sure I suspect he'll be

380
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,879
Speaker 2: asked about this in the postmatch interview about that, And

381
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,639
Speaker 2: you know, this is a perfect opportunity. Wouldn't have been

382
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 2: a great opportunity for a player union to come in

383
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,600
Speaker 2: and mediate this a little bit.

384
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 3: I know that the majority of players.

385
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 2: Were not supportive of Naomi in a situation so so,

386
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: but that's okay because of the fact that if you

387
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 2: had a player's union, you could as said, sit down

388
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,680
Speaker 2: as a group and say how to Okay, but legitimately,

389
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 2: let's talk to her and let's try and do the

390
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 2: right thing by her, but also let her know that

391
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 2: this is the this is the this is the sand,

392
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,199
Speaker 2: this is a line in the stand that we all

393
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 2: are going to support her on, and this is the

394
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,440
Speaker 2: sand line in the sand we're not going.

395
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 3: To support on.

396
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,000
Speaker 2: And that's how you create a dialogue with all the players.

397
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,440
Speaker 2: That's how you create a dialogue with the tournaments. And yeah,

398
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, Caitlin, I mean, is this maybe the

399
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 2: watershed moment we were waiting for for the actual PTPA

400
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 2: to actually embody and bring the women into the.

401
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 3: Conversation a little bit.

402
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,400
Speaker 2: Remember that, I don't know, remember them, Remember the women,

403
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 2: because if there is no bigger story than what just

404
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 2: happened with Naomi Osaka. Okay, So we have had some

405
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 2: seriously controversial moments in tennis so last two months, and

406
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 2: Novak was one of those people with the default.

407
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:51,719
Speaker 3: And now Naomi.

408
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 2: I mean, those are two biggest stories in tennas over there.

409
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: You know, Novak and Novak skip press after that, just

410
00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: both of that.

411
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 4: During the tournament, which again I kind of get why

412
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 4: he would get pressed, but like you know, this is

413
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 4: obviously something he didn't feel like it was additive, He

414
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 4: didn't feel like doing it, and so I want hope

415
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 4: that he might be sympathetic as the self appointed leader

416
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 4: of the put.

417
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 3: Ball players are, for sure, all players are. I mean

418
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 3: the amount of times I mean I've seen.

419
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: As we've seen, because we get stuff sent to us

420
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,880
Speaker 2: on Twitter, people sending, you know, very bad interviews okay,

421
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 2: and questions us two players that are very bad, and

422
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's a time.

423
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: It's hopefully it's a time for.

424
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 2: The federations and the associations and hopefully players union to

425
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 2: get together and make tennis better in every sense of

426
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 2: the word.

427
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 3: And we are going to lose Naomi Osaka probably until.

428
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 2: The hard courts to the US Open series time, because

429
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 2: I would go and say right now on record, there

430
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: is no chance she's going to be at Wimbledon, and

431
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: that that is a major.

432
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 3: Loss to our sport, to our sponsors, to.

433
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 2: Our TV rights people, to her and everything well, and

434
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: in the end ultimately to her because she is obviously

435
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,160
Speaker 2: struggling with something. She has said she has gone through

436
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 2: a lot of bouts of depression and a lot of anxiety,

437
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 2: and so let's hope she can get herself together and

438
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 2: she can get the support she needs, and we'll be

439
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 2: here for her.

440
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 4: All right, Well, let's be sure to check in often

441
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 4: because I think now that things are so fast moving,

442
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 4: people might need to hear from us on a regular basis.

443
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 3: I don't know.

444
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 1: Sorry people, Sorry, apologies in advance. All right, until soon, Renee,

445
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: thank you for the thoughts this morning. Let's continue to

446
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: watch one unfold. And that's it for this episode of

447
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 1: the Racket Magazine podcast. Thanks for listening. Our host is

448
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 1: Renee Stubbs.

449
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 5: Our co host and producer is me Caitlin Thompson. Music

450
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 5: by internationally renowned DJ Stretch Armstrong.

451
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: Thanks to Tim or Jerry and then the team at acast.

452
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 5: Find us at racketmag dot com, slash podcast and subscribe

453
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 5: to us as any of your favorite podcatchers