WEBVTT - Ep 70: Rosie Lowe + Dave Okumu 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:16.520 Loud and Quiet presents Midnight Chats. 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.799 Hey listeners, welcome to Midnight Chats. Hope you're doing well. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:29.040 Tonight's episode of the podcast features not one, but two 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.879 firsts for us. We've never had two different artists on 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.839 together on the same episode before, so that's exciting. And 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.400 also until now, we've never welcomed on an artist more 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.880 than once, so that's all about to change those We 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.320 either a good memory or maybe you're just very loyal. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.960 We'll know that David Kumu was our guest on the 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:56.240 very first Midnight Chats back in February twenty sixteen. We 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.960 sounded quite different then. I'm not going to blee on 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.440 about how impressive Dave's career CV is because that's all 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.240 in the first episode, but his story and that chat, 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.959 especially his recollections of his close brush with death a 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.600 few years back, remains a pretty extraordinary listen I think. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.800 At least I'm delighted to say. Joining us for the 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.080 first time is Rosie Low from Devon but now based 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:28.000 in London. Rosie released her debut album Control in twenty sixteen, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.000 and in the run up to recording this chat, I 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.119 went back and listened to that and was reminded of 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.600 just how strong that album is. In the time since then, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.200 she's continued to study psychotherapy alongside doing her music. She 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.319 talks a bit about that in this and it's really fascinating, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.320 and she also presents a show on the all female 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:52.360 online radio station Foundation FM. Check that out if you 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.040 haven't already. But the point of getting them together like 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.360 this is that Rosie and Dave aren't just great mates, 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:03.600 but also wrote Rose's new album You Together Spelt Wyu. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.960 It's out on the tenth of May, and bird Song, 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.120 one of the tracks from it is an early favorite 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.959 of mine from this year. So yeah, lots of conversation 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.160 about that, the origins of their friendship, getting the Mercurious 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:23.279 Jay Electronica involved on the album, Dave's relatively new fatherhood, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:29.919 Rosie discussing vulnerability and openness in the creative process, all sorts. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.919 Before we get into this, we try and make all 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.440 of the episodes sound as good as they possibly can 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.639 on midnight chats. So I am annoyed that at one 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.920 point a workman turned up outside our office window with 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.680 a giant saw to cut sheets of metal, but I 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.160 wasn't going to argue with him for obvious reasons, so 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.320 apologies for any brief background noise you might hear. As Ever, 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.720 if you haven't caught the episodes from this series of 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.480 the podcast so far, please do go back and listen. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:02.480 Sharon Vanatten last week was really funny. But let's get 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.960 into this Midnight Chats episode seventy, ticking off not one 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:26.720 but two firsts. Rosie Low and David Kumu. You did 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.960 the first ever episode of Midnight Chats. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:29.679 I don't believe it. 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:35.400 You're running out of guests in the universe's music. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.040 I thought you were so good that we just had 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:38.640 to have you back. 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:40.320 It was. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.240 It was three years ago, almost to the day and bad. 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.480 We sat here in our humble office in East London, 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.560 loud and quiet HQ, and you came in on a 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.640 miserable winter's night to record the first episode. And I 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.040 will always be grateful because the podcast obviously didn't exist 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:58.920 before you came in, so I couldn't send you anything 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:00.800 and say this is what it sounds like. He took 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.080 a leap of faith and he came in and that 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:03.000 was the first episode. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.640 It was really scary for me what I was getting into. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.000 I was actually telling Rosy about it today. I was 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.160 trying to I thought we actually recorded it around midnight. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.360 We did record it late at night. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.800 Okay, And that wasn't because I got the time wrong, 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.040 Because it's not because do you think you said come 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.599 in at eleven late? 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.560 Eventually, I'm just let's just eating my dinner. Really, sadly, 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.360 I'm like, he still hasn't turned up. I think he 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:35.840 might have got the wrong end of the stick. No, 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.000 we did. We did record it late. It was late 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:38.919 night by and. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.119 It was a miserable night and I was really happy 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:42.000 to be here. Yeah. 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.720 Yeah, Well we've gone on to make make a lot 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.479 of episodes since then. But if people are listening to 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.760 this who are only joining us more recently, do urge 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.840 you to go back and listen to that episode because 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.479 it's it will have a special place for me because 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:57.680 not only because it was the first one, but I 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.560 do think it's a really great episode for to have 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:01.880 you on and to hear about kind of all of 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.919 the things that you've done in your in your musical 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.240 career to date. But it is special to have you 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.920 both on because you're both good friends as well as 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.719 being collaborators, and it's a timely moment to have you 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.120 on together, because you both just worked together on Rosie, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.400 your new album. Can you remember where you first met 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.000 when we first got introduced? Was that a long time ago? 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:26.200 Well, we both kind of have. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:32.000 We both have kind of differing views from all memories 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.279 of when we first met, so I think we did 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.640 kind of cross paths quite a lot over quite a 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:43.480 few times. But my first real memory is in hanging 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.320 out in Dave's flat. I was I went around and 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.839 David just had an accident. They'd broken a had like 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.840 a leg in a cast, and I went around and 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.920 we just hung out and played some music and ate 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.120 some strawberries and some doughnuts. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:05.040 I did watching out. Not much has changed. Yeah, that 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.120 was a really special moment. We'd met a few times before. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.120 I remember because you told me that I sometimes go 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:17.920 into Goldsmiths to talk about and ask questions about performance 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.920 and creativity, and they keeps sort of winging me back in, 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.480 and it's always really. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.320 Fun to go in and hang out with those guys. 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.719 And I think one year I did it and Rosie 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:32.240 was in one of those sessions, but we didn't meet 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.920 at that time. My first memory of Rosie coming into 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.039 sort of my consciousness was I was having a meeting 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.479 at Domino. Rosie's manager at the time came in to 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.599 play me some of her music, and I think, maybe 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.359 you just sort of really started making music at that point, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.679 that in that way. Yeah, And I heard these these 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.839 pieces of music and I thought they were really special 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.680 and extraordinary, and Rosie's manager was asking if i'd be 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.960 up for kind of getting together with her and collaborating 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.159 with her, and I remember specifically thinking at that point 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.680 that this was someone who didn't really need to collaborate 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.120 with anybody. They were just exploring their own creativity and 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.400 their own voice, and it was a really strong and 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.720 intriguing one. And actually I remember my first instinct being 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.239 I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. Actually, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.200 this is someone who should just be like encouraged to 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:30.200 continue exploring themselves because it's really fascinating and that's going 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.960 to lead to something really special. And then we kind 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.760 of met some time after that, and at a certain 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.320 point Rosie came around to basically look after me when 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.200 I was convalescing, and I remember that that was a 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.840 really significant visit, just because. 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:47.080 I feel like. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.480 It sort of correlated to the experience of listening to 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.480 her music in the sense of getting a really strong 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.680 sense of who this person is. I remember feeling that 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.680 listening to those demos those early days, and when she 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.000 came to my house at a time when I was 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.280 feeling pretty vulnerable and I didn't really know her that well, 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.720 but I felt so at ease and so looked after, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:13.960 and we just had such a lovely time, and she 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:19.840 was so considerate and kind of loving and natural. I 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.720 just thought, what a great person. Really lucky to have 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.480 sort of cross parles with this person. And I don't 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.640 think at that point we knew, you know, what our 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.560 creative connection would be, but I just remember thinking I'd 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.720 love this person to be a part of my life basically. 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.560 So that was a really special day. So thanks for. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:37.200 Doing the washing up. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:44.240 I think creatively after that, I think that, I mean, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:49.800 I'd written right thing, and i'd actually pitched it, pitched 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.720 the whole thing down. That's how I wrote it was 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.440 so my voice was my male voice, as it were. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:00.480 And this is kind of like, you know, I mean, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.560 I can't believe it was so long ago, but it 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:07.719 was probably at seven eight years ago now, so there 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.800 wasn't loads of people pitching everything down the label or Domino. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.800 At the time, We're just like, oh, sure, And I 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:18.120 played to Dave and saying that this is what I 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.680 imagine he was really digging it, and then he I 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.079 think you took that one off before we started working 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:24.960 with Quertz and you did some stuff to because I 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.480 just remember getting something, Dave sending something back. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:34.640 And me feeling like, damn, this is this is phenomenal. 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.000 Like is that I've always felt like that with Dave 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.000 is like that every single decision he makes is a 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.880 creative one. He doesn't overdo it, which in my experience 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.880 with other people that I've worked with, can often be 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.160 that people do things for the. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.559 Sake of doing them. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.880 But I feel like with Dave you get an incredible 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:04.280 amount of intu intricacies, well big, but always for the 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.040 reason for the song and for the narrative and for 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.960 the heart of what the song's about. And I've never 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.720 really had that experience with anyone else yet of passing 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.920 something over in it, coming back and feeling like that's 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.040 beyond what I imagine this could be. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.440 It's interesting you say that because both of you have 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.480 collaborated with a lot of people in the past. You know, 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.439 you're very open minded to when you make in music 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.640 to bring other people into the process. How easy is 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.199 it to find people who you feel so comfortable with 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.880 that are so ultimately on a similar wavelength. 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:46.480 It's just really special when that happens, and probably quite rare. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.040 But I do think that it's possible to have a 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:54.080 disposition that makes it kind of clear that that's what 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.800 you're looking for and that's what you're interested in, and 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.480 that you want to cultivate relationships of that like quality. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.880 So for me, collaboration is like a big part of 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:09.600 my life and I'm looking for high quality collaborative experiences 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.680 and some are and some aren't. But I think that 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.320 exploration is valid. And I think what you said about, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.560 you know, I think having the tools and the desire 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:25.880 to cultivate trust and to be patient and to make 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.280 space for something like that to happen is like a 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.480 big part of that equation. And when you find someone 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.920 who's willing to go on that journey with you, that's 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.360 something to be treasured basically, and with Rosie we have 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.800 that in a really really unique way. There are ways 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:47.640 of exploring things creatively that in my collaboration with Rosie 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.320 that I don't feel like it just I could do 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.560 with anyone else. And it's because of who she is 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.280 and what she's interested in and how she wants to 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.439 express herself and where she feels able to be liberated 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.959 and take risks and be vulnerable. I really really respond 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.280 to that, and it's it feels like an enormous privilege 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.840 to be allowed into that and to be allowed to 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:12.760 sort of attempt to facilitate that or contribute to that, 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.920 or however you want to kind of frame it. So yeah, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.520 I guess, I guess I feel like it's it's a 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.640 very special thing that I will never take for granted 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.640 wherever I find it. But I'm always looking for it. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.839 I'm always looking for a quality connection basically. But if 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.040 I find it, I'm gonna going to hang onto it 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.720 for day life because it's a really precious thing basically. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:34.440 Yeah. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.520 And also, and like on top of that, I'd say 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:43.320 that me and mine Day's relationship has grown through the 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.280 music that we've made, like our collaborative relationships. So for 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.400 the first album, I wrote most of it on my 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.240 own and they've produced it, so it was so collaborative. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.560 But this album we actually wrote together for the first time, 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.920 like songwriting together, which I was I was shit scared 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.560 about because I was like this, you know, he's one 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.599 of my best friends, you know, one of my musical heroes. 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.520 He's like my collaborator, and I was like this, this 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:18.360 better work out. It did, and I think that we 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:23.319 had to find our way of doing that. And sometimes 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.520 it was giving each other space, and sometimes it was 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.280 being in a room together, and sometimes. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.120 It was like creating more structure, and sometimes it wasn't. 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.600 But that's something that we were able to work out 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.040 because there was already an understanding there of what we've 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.679 been through before. So had we gone into just writing 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.480 together in the way that we have for this latest 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:48.679 album without the kind of seven years of growing our 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.800 relationship as friends and collaborators, it might sound completely different. 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.719 But what I feel like so so grateful for and 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.440 very very lucky is the fact that we've you know, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:04.160 we're growing together as collaborators and that that journey's continuing, 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.640 because I feel like these days there's so so many 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.200 artists that and you know, I think it's encouraged by 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.200 labels and stuff a lot of the time, which is 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.360 like you know, new album, new producer, this is the 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.000 next hot person going with them, speed date the album, 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.920 speed date writing sessions. You know, new sound, new album, 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.400 new sound, and that therefore means new people. And I 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:33.080 just feel like there can be a lack of long 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.480 term collaborative relationships where you grow together, and I feel 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.359 really lucky to have had that with Dave and hopefully continue. 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:40.720 It for my career. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.320 What you're describing is kind of the antithesis of that 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.360 you just said there, that the speed date way of 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.760 making music. We had Coachy Radical was one of the 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.000 episodes on this series of Midnight Chats, and he was 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.240 talking about his collaborative past and some of the positions 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.000 he's found himself in where it is that thing where 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.480 you're you join a writing camp for a morning or 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.880 an afternoon and you're giving a theme and you're like, 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.720 it's like go away and make a song for somebody 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.200 you've never met in a report back in two hours, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.120 which is of the spectrum we've just been talking about, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.560 is the opposite end of what you're describing, which is 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.000 like create a sort of deep meaning for friendship, to 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.760 to create trust and then you know, open up the 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:26.840 process where you've got to know each other, and it's 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.440 it's it's the opposite end of the spectrum of that, 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.120 isn't it basically does that type of songwriting? What do 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:34.640 you think of that? Is that that's kind of like 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.560 does the idea of doing that kind of thing? You know, 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:39.480 would you rule out ever doing that thing? Because this 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.320 is the way that you do it feels much more 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.320 in keeping with the way that you want to do things. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.160 I think there's a there's an aspect where you have 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.880 to come to terms with who you are and recognize yourself, 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.000 recognize where your strengths lie, recognize where you want to 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:58.960 progress as a person basically creatively. And what I know 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.840 about myself through kind of various experiences is that I 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.840 lean towards the type of process that we've described, and 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.560 I'm interested in that. I'm interested in the long term 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.280 and the big picture and on going on a journey 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:19.240 and making Rosie's first album, I had dreams of making 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.080 more albums with her. I have dreams of her developing 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.560 and just making her own albums and producing her own records. 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.000 And I can't wait to hear that. And there are 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.640 all these things that I see that it's over like 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.760 a long period and that excites me. I'm that's just 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.080 my nature, and I think there are issues for me 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:43.080 around the sort of speedier process that you describe. I mean, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.920 I know that a lot of the industry is built 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.760 on that, really and there's clearly like a place for it. 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.480 But my issue with it is that I think if 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.720 that kind of obfuscates any other type of process, you know, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.040 if there isn't room for other processes, that's not so 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.080 great because people are unique and there isn't like a 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.360 sort of one size fits all mold. And I think 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.399 when we stop engaging with artists and creative people and 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.159 working out like what they actually need to be the 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.040 best version of themselves and to express themselves really well 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.560 and to work out what their identity is, if we're 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.480 not supporting that and there's just this industry around it 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.560 that basically kind of overrides that, I think that's really problematic, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:28.120 and sometimes the speedier thing can really sort of exacerbate 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.080 that that kind of way of thinking. But I will 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.080 also say that I've had many moments in my own 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.840 sort of creative process where I've just written for people 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:40.960 like imagining, oh my god, what would it be like 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.720 if like Beyonce like saying this tune or you know, 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.760 or like when I got invited into like Grace Jones's 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.040 world in the first instant I ever, her producer said 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.159 to me, you know, if you want to like submit 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.000 some something that some ideas for this album, then you know, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.480 go ahead. And I immediately went ran bath and sat 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.480 in the bath and then sang into like my phone 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.080 imagining what if Grace Jones like sang this melody, do 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.280 you know what I mean? It's like, so I'm really 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.280 into that. I think that's a wonderful thing, but it 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.119 just can't be like the only thing. That's when it 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.480 becomes a problem for me. And I've personally found it 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.800 that I don't necessarily operate at my peak powers when 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.920 I'm in those types of situations where it's about its 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:30.119 product orientated, you know, it's about getting a result at 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.000 the end of the day over exploring something that might 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.560 might just need a bit more space to like come 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:37.360 to the surface. 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:37.720 You know. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.240 That's yeah, that's kind of where I stand personally. But 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.600 some people have incredibly home skills and they're able to 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.280 go into situations like that and make extraordinary things and 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.520 like power to them. But I think my strengths kind 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.480 of like elsewhere and my interests as well. 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:53.720 I think it is about knowing where your strengths lie. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.560 Like I know that as a collaborator with Dave, like 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.960 with my music, Dave is like kind of is at 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.680 his best when I give him space, trust, faith, space, 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.800 and I think vice versa is the is the same 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:14.119 in our relationship. I personally, like I don't really respond 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:19.000 very well to pressure, do I Dave writing and I 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.240 kind of I kind of freeze up, like I need 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.600 a little bit of pressure because otherwise, you know, it 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.560 could just you know, I could probably you know, get 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.720 into watch too many series and stay in bed all 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:34.760 day now jog, But like that kind of pressure of 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.240 being in a room of lots of producers, jump in 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.359 the booth. That's one way to make me run really 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:46.960 really fast marathon away from that situation. Personally, I've been 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.920 in those situations before and it's like, let's write a 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:55.320 song about this, And my response is, but why and 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:56.520 what does that mean? 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.399 And what's the bigger meaning behind this? 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.440 And why and why again? 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.159 Why it's a. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.400 Music for me is such a deep thing. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.879 So the idea of songwriting as a craft is something 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:12.679 that I'm so passionate about. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:14.200 It's so passionate about. 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.960 I could talk about for five hours about different people songwriting, 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.720 But the only songwriting that really I'm passionate about is 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.360 the shit that I believe in and I know in 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.880 like five seconds if I believe it. And that's usually 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:34.480 because it's come from a place of honesty. Yeah, and 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.920 the idea of like, Okay, let's write a song about 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.880 this word because it's a good sounding word. Although like 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.399 some people can like completely bring an honesty and an 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.679 authenticity to that. For me, it needs to come from 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.680 somewhere that already exists at the moment. Maybe that will 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:53.480 change in time. 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.879 But yeah, let's talk about this new album. You you 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.160 wrote it together, So what was the start point for it? 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.800 You decided you were going to collaborate in the writing sense, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.400 What was day one it looked like, did you sit 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.199 down together at the kitchen table, did you have a 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:09.080 list of ideas? 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.159 What was it like, what do you say as the 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:11.560 starting for. 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:17.200 The way in your spare room upstairs in your flat 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.800 And it was really hot summer day, and so all 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.720 the doors were open, and like it was really loud 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.919 because if anyone's been to Deptford, you know, the vibe, 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:31.520 and there was drilling going on at the time. Dave 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.640 lives by the train station, so that was you could 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.040 hear the trains going by, and he was playing just 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:38.040 lots of chords and I. 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:39.120 Was like, oh, like that one. 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.359 And we recorded it all on my iPhone or something, 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:44.600 and I had a few ideas, I think, and then 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.560 I went home and I kind of cut them off 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.760 at the end of the day and I came back 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.480 with the chorus for. 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.000 The way and a few other ideas, and you were like, no. 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.280 I like that, that's our starting point for this. And 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.480 then we just went around that for like kind of 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.720 the whole for like a few hours, and then we 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:04.200 had the verse. 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:04.880 Isn't everything? 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.480 Yeah, did you set on like a pattern of working, 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.080 as in you had a set of time you were like, 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:14.000 we're going to work on this nine to five, or 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:14.439 we're going to. 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:16.439 It was. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.400 Years. Presumably it was just drab grabbing the time when 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.600