Speaker 1: Loud and Quiet presents Midnight Chats.
Speaker 2: Hey listeners, welcome to Midnight Chats. Hope you're doing well.
Speaker 2: Tonight's episode of the podcast features not one, but two
Speaker 2: firsts for us. We've never had two different artists on
Speaker 2: together on the same episode before, so that's exciting. And
Speaker 2: also until now, we've never welcomed on an artist more
Speaker 2: than once, so that's all about to change those We
Speaker 2: either a good memory or maybe you're just very loyal.
Speaker 2: We'll know that David Kumu was our guest on the
Speaker 2: very first Midnight Chats back in February twenty sixteen. We
Speaker 2: sounded quite different then. I'm not going to blee on
Speaker 2: about how impressive Dave's career CV is because that's all
Speaker 2: in the first episode, but his story and that chat,
Speaker 2: especially his recollections of his close brush with death a
Speaker 2: few years back, remains a pretty extraordinary listen I think.
Speaker 2: At least I'm delighted to say. Joining us for the
Speaker 2: first time is Rosie Low from Devon but now based
Speaker 2: in London. Rosie released her debut album Control in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: and in the run up to recording this chat, I
Speaker 2: went back and listened to that and was reminded of
Speaker 2: just how strong that album is. In the time since then,
Speaker 2: she's continued to study psychotherapy alongside doing her music. She
Speaker 2: talks a bit about that in this and it's really fascinating,
Speaker 2: and she also presents a show on the all female
Speaker 2: online radio station Foundation FM. Check that out if you
Speaker 2: haven't already. But the point of getting them together like
Speaker 2: this is that Rosie and Dave aren't just great mates,
Speaker 2: but also wrote Rose's new album You Together Spelt Wyu.
Speaker 2: It's out on the tenth of May, and bird Song,
Speaker 2: one of the tracks from it is an early favorite
Speaker 2: of mine from this year. So yeah, lots of conversation
Speaker 2: about that, the origins of their friendship, getting the Mercurious
Speaker 2: Jay Electronica involved on the album, Dave's relatively new fatherhood,
Speaker 2: Rosie discussing vulnerability and openness in the creative process, all sorts.
Speaker 2: Before we get into this, we try and make all
Speaker 2: of the episodes sound as good as they possibly can
Speaker 2: on midnight chats. So I am annoyed that at one
Speaker 2: point a workman turned up outside our office window with
Speaker 2: a giant saw to cut sheets of metal, but I
Speaker 2: wasn't going to argue with him for obvious reasons, so
Speaker 2: apologies for any brief background noise you might hear. As Ever,
Speaker 2: if you haven't caught the episodes from this series of
Speaker 2: the podcast so far, please do go back and listen.
Speaker 2: Sharon Vanatten last week was really funny. But let's get
Speaker 2: into this Midnight Chats episode seventy, ticking off not one
Speaker 2: but two firsts. Rosie Low and David Kumu. You did
Speaker 2: the first ever episode of Midnight Chats.
Speaker 3: I don't believe it.
Speaker 4: You're running out of guests in the universe's music.
Speaker 2: I thought you were so good that we just had
Speaker 2: to have you back.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 2: It was three years ago, almost to the day and bad.
Speaker 2: We sat here in our humble office in East London,
Speaker 2: loud and quiet HQ, and you came in on a
Speaker 2: miserable winter's night to record the first episode. And I
Speaker 2: will always be grateful because the podcast obviously didn't exist
Speaker 2: before you came in, so I couldn't send you anything
Speaker 2: and say this is what it sounds like. He took
Speaker 2: a leap of faith and he came in and that
Speaker 2: was the first episode.
Speaker 4: It was really scary for me what I was getting into.
Speaker 4: I was actually telling Rosy about it today. I was
Speaker 4: trying to I thought we actually recorded it around midnight.
Speaker 2: We did record it late at night.
Speaker 4: Okay, And that wasn't because I got the time wrong,
Speaker 4: Because it's not because do you think you said come
Speaker 4: in at eleven late?
Speaker 2: Eventually, I'm just let's just eating my dinner. Really, sadly,
Speaker 2: I'm like, he still hasn't turned up. I think he
Speaker 2: might have got the wrong end of the stick. No,
Speaker 2: we did. We did record it late. It was late
Speaker 2: night by and.
Speaker 3: It was a miserable night and I was really happy
Speaker 3: to be here. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well we've gone on to make make a lot
Speaker 2: of episodes since then. But if people are listening to
Speaker 2: this who are only joining us more recently, do urge
Speaker 2: you to go back and listen to that episode because
Speaker 2: it's it will have a special place for me because
Speaker 2: not only because it was the first one, but I
Speaker 2: do think it's a really great episode for to have
Speaker 2: you on and to hear about kind of all of
Speaker 2: the things that you've done in your in your musical
Speaker 2: career to date. But it is special to have you
Speaker 2: both on because you're both good friends as well as
Speaker 2: being collaborators, and it's a timely moment to have you
Speaker 2: on together, because you both just worked together on Rosie,
Speaker 2: your new album. Can you remember where you first met
Speaker 2: when we first got introduced? Was that a long time ago?
Speaker 6: Well, we both kind of have.
Speaker 5: We both have kind of differing views from all memories
Speaker 5: of when we first met, so I think we did
Speaker 5: kind of cross paths quite a lot over quite a
Speaker 5: few times. But my first real memory is in hanging
Speaker 5: out in Dave's flat. I was I went around and
Speaker 5: David just had an accident. They'd broken a had like
Speaker 5: a leg in a cast, and I went around and
Speaker 5: we just hung out and played some music and ate
Speaker 5: some strawberries and some doughnuts.
Speaker 4: I did watching out. Not much has changed. Yeah, that
Speaker 4: was a really special moment. We'd met a few times before.
Speaker 4: I remember because you told me that I sometimes go
Speaker 4: into Goldsmiths to talk about and ask questions about performance
Speaker 4: and creativity, and they keeps sort of winging me back in,
Speaker 4: and it's always really.
Speaker 3: Fun to go in and hang out with those guys.
Speaker 4: And I think one year I did it and Rosie
Speaker 4: was in one of those sessions, but we didn't meet
Speaker 4: at that time. My first memory of Rosie coming into
Speaker 4: sort of my consciousness was I was having a meeting
Speaker 4: at Domino. Rosie's manager at the time came in to
Speaker 4: play me some of her music, and I think, maybe
Speaker 4: you just sort of really started making music at that point,
Speaker 4: that in that way. Yeah, And I heard these these
Speaker 4: pieces of music and I thought they were really special
Speaker 4: and extraordinary, and Rosie's manager was asking if i'd be
Speaker 4: up for kind of getting together with her and collaborating
Speaker 4: with her, and I remember specifically thinking at that point
Speaker 4: that this was someone who didn't really need to collaborate
Speaker 4: with anybody. They were just exploring their own creativity and
Speaker 4: their own voice, and it was a really strong and
Speaker 4: intriguing one. And actually I remember my first instinct being
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. Actually,
Speaker 4: this is someone who should just be like encouraged to
Speaker 4: continue exploring themselves because it's really fascinating and that's going
Speaker 4: to lead to something really special. And then we kind
Speaker 4: of met some time after that, and at a certain
Speaker 4: point Rosie came around to basically look after me when
Speaker 4: I was convalescing, and I remember that that was a
Speaker 4: really significant visit, just because.
Speaker 3: I feel like.
Speaker 4: It sort of correlated to the experience of listening to
Speaker 4: her music in the sense of getting a really strong
Speaker 4: sense of who this person is. I remember feeling that
Speaker 4: listening to those demos those early days, and when she
Speaker 4: came to my house at a time when I was
Speaker 4: feeling pretty vulnerable and I didn't really know her that well,
Speaker 4: but I felt so at ease and so looked after,
Speaker 4: and we just had such a lovely time, and she
Speaker 4: was so considerate and kind of loving and natural. I
Speaker 4: just thought, what a great person. Really lucky to have
Speaker 4: sort of cross parles with this person. And I don't
Speaker 4: think at that point we knew, you know, what our
Speaker 4: creative connection would be, but I just remember thinking I'd
Speaker 4: love this person to be a part of my life basically.
Speaker 4: So that was a really special day. So thanks for.
Speaker 3: Doing the washing up.
Speaker 5: I think creatively after that, I think that, I mean,
Speaker 5: I'd written right thing, and i'd actually pitched it, pitched
Speaker 5: the whole thing down. That's how I wrote it was
Speaker 5: so my voice was my male voice, as it were.
Speaker 5: And this is kind of like, you know, I mean,
Speaker 5: I can't believe it was so long ago, but it
Speaker 5: was probably at seven eight years ago now, so there
Speaker 5: wasn't loads of people pitching everything down the label or Domino.
Speaker 5: At the time, We're just like, oh, sure, And I
Speaker 5: played to Dave and saying that this is what I
Speaker 5: imagine he was really digging it, and then he I
Speaker 5: think you took that one off before we started working
Speaker 5: with Quertz and you did some stuff to because I
Speaker 5: just remember getting something, Dave sending something back.
Speaker 6: And me feeling like, damn, this is this is phenomenal.
Speaker 5: Like is that I've always felt like that with Dave
Speaker 5: is like that every single decision he makes is a
Speaker 5: creative one. He doesn't overdo it, which in my experience
Speaker 5: with other people that I've worked with, can often be
Speaker 5: that people do things for the.
Speaker 6: Sake of doing them.
Speaker 5: But I feel like with Dave you get an incredible
Speaker 5: amount of intu intricacies, well big, but always for the
Speaker 5: reason for the song and for the narrative and for
Speaker 5: the heart of what the song's about. And I've never
Speaker 5: really had that experience with anyone else yet of passing
Speaker 5: something over in it, coming back and feeling like that's
Speaker 5: beyond what I imagine this could be.
Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that because both of you have
Speaker 2: collaborated with a lot of people in the past. You know,
Speaker 2: you're very open minded to when you make in music
Speaker 2: to bring other people into the process. How easy is
Speaker 2: it to find people who you feel so comfortable with
Speaker 2: that are so ultimately on a similar wavelength.
Speaker 4: It's just really special when that happens, and probably quite rare.
Speaker 4: But I do think that it's possible to have a
Speaker 4: disposition that makes it kind of clear that that's what
Speaker 4: you're looking for and that's what you're interested in, and
Speaker 4: that you want to cultivate relationships of that like quality.
Speaker 4: So for me, collaboration is like a big part of
Speaker 4: my life and I'm looking for high quality collaborative experiences
Speaker 4: and some are and some aren't. But I think that
Speaker 4: exploration is valid. And I think what you said about,
Speaker 4: you know, I think having the tools and the desire
Speaker 4: to cultivate trust and to be patient and to make
Speaker 4: space for something like that to happen is like a
Speaker 4: big part of that equation. And when you find someone
Speaker 4: who's willing to go on that journey with you, that's
Speaker 4: something to be treasured basically, and with Rosie we have
Speaker 4: that in a really really unique way. There are ways
Speaker 4: of exploring things creatively that in my collaboration with Rosie
Speaker 4: that I don't feel like it just I could do
Speaker 4: with anyone else. And it's because of who she is
Speaker 4: and what she's interested in and how she wants to
Speaker 4: express herself and where she feels able to be liberated
Speaker 4: and take risks and be vulnerable. I really really respond
Speaker 4: to that, and it's it feels like an enormous privilege
Speaker 4: to be allowed into that and to be allowed to
Speaker 4: sort of attempt to facilitate that or contribute to that,
Speaker 4: or however you want to kind of frame it. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I guess, I guess I feel like it's it's a
Speaker 4: very special thing that I will never take for granted
Speaker 4: wherever I find it. But I'm always looking for it.
Speaker 4: I'm always looking for a quality connection basically. But if
Speaker 4: I find it, I'm gonna going to hang onto it
Speaker 4: for day life because it's a really precious thing basically.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And also, and like on top of that, I'd say
Speaker 5: that me and mine Day's relationship has grown through the
Speaker 5: music that we've made, like our collaborative relationships. So for
Speaker 5: the first album, I wrote most of it on my
Speaker 5: own and they've produced it, so it was so collaborative.
Speaker 5: But this album we actually wrote together for the first time,
Speaker 5: like songwriting together, which I was I was shit scared
Speaker 5: about because I was like this, you know, he's one
Speaker 5: of my best friends, you know, one of my musical heroes.
Speaker 5: He's like my collaborator, and I was like this, this
Speaker 5: better work out. It did, and I think that we
Speaker 5: had to find our way of doing that. And sometimes
Speaker 5: it was giving each other space, and sometimes it was
Speaker 5: being in a room together, and sometimes.
Speaker 6: It was like creating more structure, and sometimes it wasn't.
Speaker 5: But that's something that we were able to work out
Speaker 5: because there was already an understanding there of what we've
Speaker 5: been through before. So had we gone into just writing
Speaker 5: together in the way that we have for this latest
Speaker 5: album without the kind of seven years of growing our
Speaker 5: relationship as friends and collaborators, it might sound completely different.
Speaker 5: But what I feel like so so grateful for and
Speaker 5: very very lucky is the fact that we've you know,
Speaker 5: we're growing together as collaborators and that that journey's continuing,
Speaker 5: because I feel like these days there's so so many
Speaker 5: artists that and you know, I think it's encouraged by
Speaker 5: labels and stuff a lot of the time, which is
Speaker 5: like you know, new album, new producer, this is the
Speaker 5: next hot person going with them, speed date the album,
Speaker 5: speed date writing sessions. You know, new sound, new album,
Speaker 5: new sound, and that therefore means new people. And I
Speaker 5: just feel like there can be a lack of long
Speaker 5: term collaborative relationships where you grow together, and I feel
Speaker 5: really lucky to have had that with Dave and hopefully continue.
Speaker 6: It for my career.
Speaker 2: What you're describing is kind of the antithesis of that
Speaker 2: you just said there, that the speed date way of
Speaker 2: making music. We had Coachy Radical was one of the
Speaker 2: episodes on this series of Midnight Chats, and he was
Speaker 2: talking about his collaborative past and some of the positions
Speaker 2: he's found himself in where it is that thing where
Speaker 2: you're you join a writing camp for a morning or
Speaker 2: an afternoon and you're giving a theme and you're like,
Speaker 2: it's like go away and make a song for somebody
Speaker 2: you've never met in a report back in two hours,
Speaker 2: which is of the spectrum we've just been talking about,
Speaker 2: is the opposite end of what you're describing, which is
Speaker 2: like create a sort of deep meaning for friendship, to
Speaker 2: to create trust and then you know, open up the
Speaker 2: process where you've got to know each other, and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's the opposite end of the spectrum of that,
Speaker 2: isn't it basically does that type of songwriting? What do
Speaker 2: you think of that? Is that that's kind of like
Speaker 2: does the idea of doing that kind of thing? You know,
Speaker 2: would you rule out ever doing that thing? Because this
Speaker 2: is the way that you do it feels much more
Speaker 2: in keeping with the way that you want to do things.
Speaker 4: I think there's a there's an aspect where you have
Speaker 4: to come to terms with who you are and recognize yourself,
Speaker 4: recognize where your strengths lie, recognize where you want to
Speaker 4: progress as a person basically creatively. And what I know
Speaker 4: about myself through kind of various experiences is that I
Speaker 4: lean towards the type of process that we've described, and
Speaker 4: I'm interested in that. I'm interested in the long term
Speaker 4: and the big picture and on going on a journey
Speaker 4: and making Rosie's first album, I had dreams of making
Speaker 4: more albums with her. I have dreams of her developing
Speaker 4: and just making her own albums and producing her own records.
Speaker 4: And I can't wait to hear that. And there are
Speaker 4: all these things that I see that it's over like
Speaker 4: a long period and that excites me. I'm that's just
Speaker 4: my nature, and I think there are issues for me
Speaker 4: around the sort of speedier process that you describe. I mean,
Speaker 4: I know that a lot of the industry is built
Speaker 4: on that, really and there's clearly like a place for it.
Speaker 4: But my issue with it is that I think if
Speaker 4: that kind of obfuscates any other type of process, you know,
Speaker 4: if there isn't room for other processes, that's not so
Speaker 4: great because people are unique and there isn't like a
Speaker 4: sort of one size fits all mold. And I think
Speaker 4: when we stop engaging with artists and creative people and
Speaker 4: working out like what they actually need to be the
Speaker 4: best version of themselves and to express themselves really well
Speaker 4: and to work out what their identity is, if we're
Speaker 4: not supporting that and there's just this industry around it
Speaker 4: that basically kind of overrides that, I think that's really problematic,
Speaker 4: and sometimes the speedier thing can really sort of exacerbate
Speaker 4: that that kind of way of thinking. But I will
Speaker 4: also say that I've had many moments in my own
Speaker 4: sort of creative process where I've just written for people
Speaker 4: like imagining, oh my god, what would it be like
Speaker 4: if like Beyonce like saying this tune or you know,
Speaker 4: or like when I got invited into like Grace Jones's
Speaker 4: world in the first instant I ever, her producer said
Speaker 4: to me, you know, if you want to like submit
Speaker 4: some something that some ideas for this album, then you know,
Speaker 4: go ahead. And I immediately went ran bath and sat
Speaker 4: in the bath and then sang into like my phone
Speaker 4: imagining what if Grace Jones like sang this melody, do
Speaker 4: you know what I mean? It's like, so I'm really
Speaker 4: into that. I think that's a wonderful thing, but it
Speaker 4: just can't be like the only thing. That's when it
Speaker 4: becomes a problem for me. And I've personally found it
Speaker 4: that I don't necessarily operate at my peak powers when
Speaker 4: I'm in those types of situations where it's about its
Speaker 4: product orientated, you know, it's about getting a result at
Speaker 4: the end of the day over exploring something that might
Speaker 4: might just need a bit more space to like come
Speaker 4: to the surface.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: That's yeah, that's kind of where I stand personally. But
Speaker 4: some people have incredibly home skills and they're able to
Speaker 4: go into situations like that and make extraordinary things and
Speaker 4: like power to them. But I think my strengths kind
Speaker 4: of like elsewhere and my interests as well.
Speaker 6: I think it is about knowing where your strengths lie.
Speaker 5: Like I know that as a collaborator with Dave, like
Speaker 5: with my music, Dave is like kind of is at
Speaker 5: his best when I give him space, trust, faith, space,
Speaker 5: and I think vice versa is the is the same
Speaker 5: in our relationship. I personally, like I don't really respond
Speaker 5: very well to pressure, do I Dave writing and I
Speaker 5: kind of I kind of freeze up, like I need
Speaker 5: a little bit of pressure because otherwise, you know, it
Speaker 5: could just you know, I could probably you know, get
Speaker 5: into watch too many series and stay in bed all
Speaker 5: day now jog, But like that kind of pressure of
Speaker 5: being in a room of lots of producers, jump in
Speaker 5: the booth. That's one way to make me run really
Speaker 5: really fast marathon away from that situation. Personally, I've been
Speaker 5: in those situations before and it's like, let's write a
Speaker 5: song about this, And my response is, but why and
Speaker 5: what does that mean?
Speaker 6: And what's the bigger meaning behind this?
Speaker 2: And why and why again?
Speaker 3: Why it's a.
Speaker 6: Music for me is such a deep thing.
Speaker 5: So the idea of songwriting as a craft is something
Speaker 5: that I'm so passionate about.
Speaker 6: It's so passionate about.
Speaker 5: I could talk about for five hours about different people songwriting,
Speaker 5: But the only songwriting that really I'm passionate about is
Speaker 5: the shit that I believe in and I know in
Speaker 5: like five seconds if I believe it. And that's usually
Speaker 5: because it's come from a place of honesty. Yeah, and
Speaker 5: the idea of like, Okay, let's write a song about
Speaker 5: this word because it's a good sounding word. Although like
Speaker 5: some people can like completely bring an honesty and an
Speaker 5: authenticity to that. For me, it needs to come from
Speaker 5: somewhere that already exists at the moment. Maybe that will
Speaker 5: change in time.
Speaker 2: But yeah, let's talk about this new album. You you
Speaker 2: wrote it together, So what was the start point for it?
Speaker 2: You decided you were going to collaborate in the writing sense,
Speaker 2: What was day one it looked like, did you sit
Speaker 2: down together at the kitchen table, did you have a
Speaker 2: list of ideas?
Speaker 3: What was it like, what do you say as the
Speaker 3: starting for.
Speaker 5: The way in your spare room upstairs in your flat
Speaker 5: And it was really hot summer day, and so all
Speaker 5: the doors were open, and like it was really loud
Speaker 5: because if anyone's been to Deptford, you know, the vibe,
Speaker 5: and there was drilling going on at the time. Dave
Speaker 5: lives by the train station, so that was you could
Speaker 5: hear the trains going by, and he was playing just
Speaker 5: lots of chords and I.
Speaker 6: Was like, oh, like that one.
Speaker 5: And we recorded it all on my iPhone or something,
Speaker 5: and I had a few ideas, I think, and then
Speaker 5: I went home and I kind of cut them off
Speaker 5: at the end of the day and I came back
Speaker 5: with the chorus for.
Speaker 6: The way and a few other ideas, and you were like, no.
Speaker 5: I like that, that's our starting point for this. And
Speaker 5: then we just went around that for like kind of
Speaker 5: the whole for like a few hours, and then we
Speaker 5: had the verse.
Speaker 6: Isn't everything?
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you set on like a pattern of working,
Speaker 2: as in you had a set of time you were like,
Speaker 2: we're going to work on this nine to five, or
Speaker 2: we're going to.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 2: Years. Presumably it was just drab grabbing the time when
Speaker 2: you could then and it or it would it come
Speaker 2: to eventually.
Speaker 4: Be Well, basically, I just remember us kind of making
Speaker 4: the commitment to one another that we were going to
Speaker 4: do it one way or another. And again that's a
Speaker 4: really empowering thing for me, like when you when you find.
Speaker 3: That with a person where you can just make a commitment.
Speaker 3: The world is a crazy place.
Speaker 4: You don't know what's going to happen and how people
Speaker 4: are going to respond, or what teams are going to
Speaker 4: be doing, or what labels are going to be doing,
Speaker 4: and it just felt great to just say to each other,
Speaker 4: let's make a record, you know, like come, come and shine.
Speaker 4: It was a crazy time for me. I had a
Speaker 4: lot of things going on. I was moving out of
Speaker 4: one studio, trying to build another. I didn't really have
Speaker 4: a base of operations. Yeah, in that time, also had
Speaker 4: a baby and didn't have a midlife crisis, or maybe
Speaker 4: that was my manifestation of mid life crisis. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but you know, it was a really huge time of
Speaker 4: like transition for me. And it's a real testament to
Speaker 4: Rosie that she kind of walked through that with me.
Speaker 4: And that's really special for me as well because it's
Speaker 4: that's in this record in a way. So I remember
Speaker 4: we were working in all kinds of places. Sometimes we'd
Speaker 4: be at the church, at pulled up with studio, sometimes
Speaker 4: we were at my flat. Sometimes we're at Rosies flat
Speaker 4: sometimes I was in a cafe on headphones. We were
Speaker 4: making up as we go along in terms of the
Speaker 4: structure and just trying to create the space and the
Speaker 4: quality of process that that we needed to make that music.
Speaker 4: And because the nature of our collaboration was kind of
Speaker 4: going deeper in a sense, I felt like I just, yeah,
Speaker 4: I really wanted to give Rosie whatever she needed and
Speaker 4: whatever I could for her to kind of work out
Speaker 4: what she wanted to say next and how she wanted
Speaker 4: to say it. And it's I think when you were
Speaker 4: close to a person, you kind of you have these
Speaker 4: sort of instincts. I remember feeling quite early on, like
Speaker 4: really probably even that day when we were sort of
Speaker 4: starting to look at chords for or ideas for that song,
Speaker 4: the way I remember just feeling, I think there's I
Speaker 4: think we're going to go to like a brighter place,
Speaker 4: and I think it's going to be like earthier or
Speaker 4: so I just had these kind of and maybe there's
Speaker 4: going to be more of like a live feeling. I
Speaker 4: just had these kind of instincts that these might be
Speaker 4: things that Roe would want to explore, like in the
Speaker 4: next bit, the next phase of her output. And yeah,
Speaker 4: so it just became about working out how to how
Speaker 4: to find that palette, how to inspire whatever needed to
Speaker 4: come next. Basically, So yeah, it was. It wasn't without
Speaker 4: its challenges. I think it would have been easier if
Speaker 4: I'd been saying more settled, if I'd had my space
Speaker 4: ready and whatever, and then we could have got on
Speaker 4: with things in a more structured way.
Speaker 6: I think it would be a different record.
Speaker 4: This would have been a different record. And actually the
Speaker 4: way things went and the time that it took allowed
Speaker 4: a space for something to happen that obviously just needed
Speaker 4: to happen. And again, coming back to your earlier question
Speaker 4: about kind of the writing camp approach versus some another
Speaker 4: type of approach. The thing that freaks me out about
Speaker 4: that is, like, you know, I see good things happening
Speaker 4: all the time because they've been given space and they've
Speaker 4: been nurtured. So if you don't give things space, if
Speaker 4: you're working in an industry where space is at such
Speaker 4: a premium that it almost can't it just can't exist
Speaker 4: because everything needs to be like banging, product driven and
Speaker 4: it's got to sound finished like by the end of
Speaker 4: the day, and the label needs to hear this and
Speaker 4: you know, there's so much competition that every artist has
Speaker 4: to put out a thousand tracks a day and two
Speaker 4: millions social media posts just to kind of exist. I
Speaker 4: think the danger is that you there's no space for
Speaker 4: these really special things to actually come to the surface.
Speaker 4: And because some things require a lot of space, you know,
Speaker 4: and it can take a while to like to sort
Speaker 4: of dial down the noise and reconnect with yourself and go, actually,
Speaker 4: who am I and what is my identity and what
Speaker 4: is unique about how I express myself versus all this
Speaker 4: other stuff in the world. And I really felt that
Speaker 4: that's what happened over that period of like a couple
Speaker 4: of years of us kind of like foraging around in
Speaker 4: the undergrowth trying to work out how to make a record,
Speaker 4: you know, in you know, the next chapter of our collaboration,
Speaker 4: and yeah, when I listen to it now, that's what
Speaker 4: I hear in it. So I'm really proud of that
Speaker 4: as well. It just feels like it's a real reflection
Speaker 4: of like going somewhere. We actually went somewhere and we
Speaker 4: dug in and it's a different feeling to what we
Speaker 4: did the first time round, and there's a progression before.
Speaker 2: I ask you a little bit about stuff outside of you.
Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about the people that you
Speaker 2: also brought on board because you co wrote the record.
Speaker 2: But then there are other people on the album. Jamie
Speaker 2: WiM's on there, Jamie Liddell's on there. Jay electronicas on there.
Speaker 2: I thought Jay Electronica, being a Je Electronica fan, I
Speaker 2: have recently come to think that I don't think he exists.
Speaker 2: He's he's the man in the myth, isn't he He's
Speaker 2: like the banks of him. Oh yeah, there you go. Yeah,
Speaker 2: tell me a little bit about those people that you
Speaker 2: brought on board, and where did you find Jee Electronica?
Speaker 5: Well, it's actually for the Way the Way that were
Speaker 5: the one that we started in Dave's flat, and it's
Speaker 5: a love song, like it's a it's a positive love song, which.
Speaker 6: You know, I just don't fucking do that, but I
Speaker 6: do now.
Speaker 5: I've always I always resist that kind of just I
Speaker 5: just feel like I'm I'm got this innate feeling of
Speaker 5: resistance to anything that's like just inherently positive because I
Speaker 5: feel like it's cheesy. R I actually come to the
Speaker 5: accept that cheesy is fucking brilliant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just authentic because that's the way you
Speaker 2: felt when you.
Speaker 5: Were absolutely and I'm in a place and very in love,
Speaker 5: and you know, the whole album is kind of about
Speaker 5: the kind of complexities of love and relationships and anyway,
Speaker 5: So that on that song, me and Dave are like,
Speaker 5: we've got to get a rapper on this.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: Dave is always encouraging me, like, who's the dream? Think big,
Speaker 5: don't restrict your vision. So I was like, well, obviously
Speaker 5: Andre three thousand, Jay, Electronica, Tiler the creator, and Kendrick
Speaker 5: and so I went into a label meeting and I
Speaker 5: was like, these are the people that I want. I
Speaker 5: was like, you know, maybe maybe the Electronica. They were like, oh,
Speaker 5: he's going to be he doesn't do stuff, he's going
Speaker 5: to be too expensive.
Speaker 6: You know, he might not. And I was like, well,
Speaker 6: that's a lot of speculation. Can we try, And there.
Speaker 5: Was quite I was met with quite a lot of resistance,
Speaker 5: and then they did finally sent it to I was like,
Speaker 5: let's just try it might like the track, and then
Speaker 5: we got an email back saying he loves it.
Speaker 6: He's going to do a verse.
Speaker 5: And then a few months later I was thinking, well,
Speaker 5: you know, take things with a big pinchure, so that
Speaker 5: might not happen, it might happen.
Speaker 6: I got I learned one day.
Speaker 5: I woke up and it was in my inbox direct
Speaker 5: from him, and literally I was like, I played that,
Speaker 5: and I don't think I've jumped to that high for
Speaker 5: a long time.
Speaker 6: That it was.
Speaker 5: It's absolutely incredible and just phenomenal.
Speaker 6: How much.
Speaker 5: He's picked up in his verse from the whole album.
Speaker 5: He mentioned songs in on the album that he doesn't
Speaker 5: even know that existed, so like, it's like something really
Speaker 5: spiritual happened with that verse, because honestly, I've read those
Speaker 5: lyrics so many times and thought someone's tricked me.
Speaker 2: What if he'd been like somehow like watching the process
Speaker 2: and it'd had like an innate understanding of what had been.
Speaker 5: Going on and given all my album lyrics and had
Speaker 5: some like overarching meaning of what exactly what I've been
Speaker 5: through in this one verse is absolutely.
Speaker 6: Kind of I still can't believe it.
Speaker 4: Actually, you know, we ended up with these two versions
Speaker 4: of the song, and I wanted to see if there
Speaker 4: was a way to blend them together so that it
Speaker 4: went into like the slower version. A certain point in
Speaker 4: the tune, and when I was kind of cobbling it
Speaker 4: together as an experiment, I was like, oh, it'd be amazing.
Speaker 4: I just thought I heard I heard Jay's voice basically
Speaker 4: in that mix, and I thought it would be interesting
Speaker 4: to have that type of element come into a track
Speaker 4: where you didn't expect it to be there basically, and
Speaker 4: I just thought he would be perfect, Like the tone
Speaker 4: of his voice, the character of how he expresses himself.
Speaker 4: It was just like my first choice. And we had
Speaker 4: this discussion, but basically about our favorite raffers.
Speaker 6: We've always connected Jay, I haven't really, Yeah, we always have.
Speaker 4: And and similarly, like when it became a reality and
Speaker 4: I heard what he'd done there was it was such
Speaker 4: an affirmation of so many things because, as Rosie says,
Speaker 4: it reflects so much of the kind of intention of
Speaker 4: the record as a whole. You know, so often with
Speaker 4: those sorts of contributions, when someone like that does agree
Speaker 4: to like jump on the track, it's like about getting paid,
Speaker 4: and maybe there's not that much thought goes into like
Speaker 4: what's being expressed, and it's just like everyone thinks it's cool,
Speaker 4: but it's actually not that deep.
Speaker 3: So but to hear I can hear.
Speaker 4: He's enjoying himself on that track, and he's enjoying his
Speaker 4: imagination and he's responding to like what's there and he's
Speaker 4: going deep, which is kind of like what the whole
Speaker 4: record's about. And it was really a great moment to
Speaker 4: hear that, you know, those few that just that moment
Speaker 4: being so such an engaged explosion of creativity. It's just like, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's the stuff and dreams really, So that's yeah, really
Speaker 4: has a really special place in my heart.
Speaker 3: It's really cool.
Speaker 2: Outside of the making of the record, people that have
Speaker 2: listened to the first episode that we did in midnight
Speaker 2: Chats will remember you and I, Dave talking about some
Speaker 2: major kind of life altering events. We went deep on
Speaker 2: life and then and deep deep meaning yeah, yeah, outside
Speaker 2: of creating this album together the last couple of years, Dave,
Speaker 2: you've already mentioned it, like the significant things that's happened
Speaker 2: to both of you. Dave, you become a father since
Speaker 2: then three years is it?
Speaker 3: How is your He's going to be two at the
Speaker 3: end of opal Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is subsequent how started.
Speaker 3: Basically the best thing that's ever happened to me. It's man,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't want to. I could very easily end up
Speaker 4: in sounding like I don't know, sort of going into
Speaker 4: sort of some sort of smug, self indulgent like parent,
Speaker 4: you know, the equivalent of like bombarding your listeners with
Speaker 4: images of.
Speaker 3: My child or something.
Speaker 2: But he is right now, guys.
Speaker 3: Can you see this? Can you see this? Can you
Speaker 3: see how cute it is? All I can this. All
Speaker 3: I can say is that I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's it's strange the culture around sort of parenthood and
Speaker 4: people's kind of anxieties around it and whatever people might
Speaker 4: think that stuff means. And obviously lots of people have kids,
Speaker 4: don't they, And we were all babies once. I will
Speaker 4: just say, for me, the experience has been the equivalent
Speaker 4: of falling in love, like over and over and over
Speaker 4: and over and over and over and over and over
Speaker 4: and over and over again. It's like, every single day
Speaker 4: it's like falling in love. And I guess in this,
Speaker 4: in this early sort of stage of of my cub's life,
Speaker 4: he's changing so much all the time, so maybe that's
Speaker 4: part of it. That's why it's so heightened, that sense
Speaker 4: of like, oh my god, you just had a nap
Speaker 4: and then you suddenly you've got an fro or like,
Speaker 4: you know, now you're doing this incredibly cute thing or whatever.
Speaker 4: Part of me thinks it's kind of a function of evolution,
Speaker 4: you know, so that we protect them and nurture them,
Speaker 4: we have to be in love with them. Man, that
Speaker 4: shit works. Basically. I'm yeah, he's the upple of my eye.
Speaker 4: He's just the best thing ever. And he something that
Speaker 4: I really love about being a parent. You know, it's
Speaker 4: not without its challenges, and it stretches you and does
Speaker 4: all kinds of things. But the thing that I really
Speaker 4: love is that it compels you to be in the moment.
Speaker 4: You know, babies, nothing will do that better than a baby.
Speaker 3: It's like they.
Speaker 4: Demand your your engagement and your presence. And the point
Speaker 4: at which it becomes miserable is if you don't respond
Speaker 4: to that. But if you respond to that, you are
Speaker 4: going to go on the wildest trip. Like they will
Speaker 4: show you how to be in the moment. And that's
Speaker 4: really you know, that's really what I want to build
Speaker 4: my life around. Anyway. So if I've got this like living,
Speaker 4: breathing entity that just helps me do that every day,
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, it's it's so cool. It's so cool,
Speaker 4: and he's just such a dude and.
Speaker 6: So much fun.
Speaker 2: It's really would like running out when you were like
Speaker 2: working at any points kind of.
Speaker 4: No, he's well no, because he wasn't really at that point.
Speaker 4: So he's still so young, and I'm sure he's probably
Speaker 4: gonna end up like playing drums.
Speaker 6: And he's so.
Speaker 3: Gost already. He's on the pots and pans on.
Speaker 6: My washing machine.
Speaker 4: They might have an interested in electronic music, that's yeah.
Speaker 4: I think, I don't know. We'll see. I'm curious to
Speaker 4: see where he where he goes. But yes, it's been really,
Speaker 4: really wonderful. He's amazing and I can't It's just weird
Speaker 4: thing that happens when they kind of you know, descend
Speaker 4: to Earth or however it is that they appeared where
Speaker 4: you were. Just once they're there, you're like, what you
Speaker 4: weren't here? Like my life just the idea of my
Speaker 4: life before just seems like some sort of empty husk.
Speaker 4: It's just so much richer now. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker 2: Crazy outside of the making of the album. Last few years,
Speaker 2: am I right? Thinking you went and studied you kind
Speaker 2: of like qualifications. We'll tell me a little bit about.
Speaker 5: That what I am studying to be a psychotherapist. So
Speaker 5: it's been in like quite a huge journey of self development.
Speaker 5: It's definitely been something that's influenced my music and every
Speaker 5: part of me actually in my process as well, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure it will continue. So I've done the first
Speaker 5: three years and I've got four more years to go,
Speaker 5: and yeah, it's been amazing. It's the other thing other
Speaker 5: than music really that I all I want to do
Speaker 5: is that like read about relationship therapy and psychosexual That's
Speaker 5: like what I want to go down, go into. But
Speaker 5: I just read like a thousand books on the mind
Speaker 5: and emotions. I just find it so interesting and listen
Speaker 5: to podcasts and kind of every other second I have,
Speaker 5: so like my dream is to be making music, and
Speaker 5: those two things combined, I think I'd be a very
Speaker 5: happy girl.
Speaker 2: You mentioned it's affected the or change perhaps the way
Speaker 2: that you approach your own creative process in what ways,
Speaker 2: Like how's that kind of Can you think of examples
Speaker 2: of the way that's happened or changed even in the
Speaker 2: last safe for example, approaching and writing on your first
Speaker 2: album as opposed to writing on this one. Given that
Speaker 2: you've been studying the whole way through. How is that?
Speaker 2: Are those changes major? Are they minor? Or are they
Speaker 2: difficult to articulate?
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's changed my even what the subject
Speaker 5: of the record completely because the records about love and
Speaker 5: the complexities of love and my relationship with my partner.
Speaker 5: We've been going to relationship therapy for the last five years,
Speaker 5: so that's had such a big influence on it anyway,
Speaker 5: But basically just.
Speaker 6: Self awareness. So I've got I know that I've got.
Speaker 5: Abilities, particularly when I'm like recording my relationship with my voice.
Speaker 5: I'd say like it's really opened that up in terms
Speaker 5: of like resisting messiness and which can sometimes come with
Speaker 5: an openness as well. You know, we all know that
Speaker 5: like to be to kind of be free, it's sometimes
Speaker 5: messy and it's sometimes chaotic, and I think that there's
Speaker 5: been like an ongoing resistance of that in relation to
Speaker 5: my voice at times, in the in relation to how
Speaker 5: I record myself, how I want to hear myself sing.
Speaker 5: So at one point in the album process, it kind
Speaker 5: of all came a part of the seems for me.
Speaker 6: And I was like, what is this? Who am I?
Speaker 6: Where am I in these songs.
Speaker 5: I'm I think, I'm I think I'm going to quit
Speaker 5: or die or something. I don't know what's going on,
Speaker 5: but this is It all came a part of the scenes,
Speaker 5: and that's because I was processing something really deep and
Speaker 5: basically thanks to my therapists and the fact that I
Speaker 5: was studying, so I had like a huge support network
Speaker 5: and my boyfriend and Dave was it was all about
Speaker 5: reminding me.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: Dave sat down with me and was like, Okay, tell me,
Speaker 5: what are these songs that we don't know about?
Speaker 6: And I was like, I don't know. He was like, okay,
Speaker 6: let's go through them. What's this song about?
Speaker 5: And I was like, well, this song is about my
Speaker 5: relationship with Jacob in this way or my relationship with
Speaker 5: this person. And as soon as I said it, I
Speaker 5: was like, oh, like, it's entirely it's entirely accurate and
Speaker 5: present and I'm holy in it. But I forgot because
Speaker 5: I was going through a process of kind of of
Speaker 5: like self analysis. So basically, I guess what I'm saying
Speaker 5: is like it all feeds into each other, and as
Speaker 5: soon as I've gone through that process, it was kind
Speaker 5: of about owning it again. Re owning the songs for
Speaker 5: where I was at at the point and being like
Speaker 5: I guess it allowed me to be like to create
Speaker 5: space to have more of a freedom to be able
Speaker 5: to make mistakes. So that was a really long winded way. Basically,
Speaker 5: I think I'm a perfectionist in like a deep, deep way,
Speaker 5: and I think that that's down if I'm going to
Speaker 5: go into self analysis, I think that's down to like
Speaker 5: having a lack of security sometimes and feeling like I
Speaker 5: need to control things to create that security. Through my
Speaker 5: process of becoming a therapist, you have to do a
Speaker 5: lot of self development. I think that I've I'm still
Speaker 5: working through that stuff, but I think that it's allowed
Speaker 5: me some space to be able to make mistakes and
Speaker 5: for that to be okay. Yeah, and some more self
Speaker 5: compassion within that, and vocally it's freeing me up in
Speaker 5: a huge way that I've never really experienced before, and
Speaker 5: I'm actually really enjoying singing.
Speaker 2: I can also get a word on your work with
Speaker 2: Foundation FM. Yes, so you've done a handful of shows. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So for people that have not come across Foundation FM,
Speaker 2: of our listeners that haven't heard about it, just tell
Speaker 2: them a little bit about it and also why you
Speaker 2: want to get involved.
Speaker 5: Well, it's an all female platform radio station set up
Speaker 5: by some incredible women that have been in radio and
Speaker 5: have you know, been surrounded by kind of male voice
Speaker 5: and radio and felt like there's there needs to be
Speaker 5: more of a space for a platform for women that
Speaker 5: is just totally supporting each other, having a voice for
Speaker 5: different women from different backgrounds, particularly in London where it's
Speaker 5: like such a kind of you know, stirring pot for that.
Speaker 5: So they asked me if I wanted to do a show,
Speaker 5: and like absolutely, that's Like just to be involved in
Speaker 5: a platform where it's like female in the most supportive
Speaker 5: way excites me, Like I want to meet more incredible
Speaker 5: women and support them and feel supportive and create kind
Speaker 5: of We've just got like an amazing people around us,
Speaker 5: and the more people that we can meet in terms
Speaker 5: of like that have kind of you know, exciting and
Speaker 5: different perspectives on things, the better I think. So, Yeah,
Speaker 5: I've got a monthly show on there and I bring
Speaker 5: on guests and my show is kind of focused on
Speaker 5: I'm interested on processes that musicians go through that people
Speaker 5: might not hear about and that might come from a
Speaker 5: writing process that might come from the day job that
Speaker 5: so many musicians have but don't talk about, just to
Speaker 5: be able to make the rent of their rent or
Speaker 5: to put bread on the table. So that's kind of
Speaker 5: what I'm interested going a little bit deeper than what
Speaker 5: can often feel like happens on radio. But although now
Speaker 5: this podcast everyone's going deeper.
Speaker 3: Way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wanted to say, though, just what you
Speaker 4: were saying for about all kind of growing understanding of
Speaker 4: yourself and how that's impacted your creativity and perfectionism. I
Speaker 4: just think it's such an important area to have, like
Speaker 4: a dialogue the way, because I think a lot of
Speaker 4: people suffer from this and struggle with this stufe, especially
Speaker 4: in this day and age where technology kind of gives
Speaker 4: us a certain illusion of control over processes it. You know,
Speaker 4: just thinking about what happened when we came in here,
Speaker 4: I'm like worry because my phone's running out of battery
Speaker 4: whause he's like backing stuff up. It's like this whole thing.
Speaker 4: It's like technology which is meant to kind of three
Speaker 4: us up, seems to be feeding into these really sort
Speaker 4: of actually restrictive tendencies. And what was interesting at that
Speaker 4: point that Rowe was very bravely describing where things kind
Speaker 4: of fell apart at the scenes, which was a really
Speaker 4: necessary part of the process because without that happening, we
Speaker 4: wouldn't have gotten through to the other side. And I'm
Speaker 4: really glad she kind of had this that she needed
Speaker 4: through that. But what was interesting to me was that actually,
Speaker 4: you know, there's a striving for perfection or betterment, and
Speaker 4: actually it can end up restricting us and throttling our expression.
Speaker 4: What's interesting to me is actually what happens when we
Speaker 4: start to let go of the idea of perfection basically,
Speaker 4: and how quickly in this instance, like for me, there
Speaker 4: was such a There was actually over the a very
Speaker 4: short period like two weeks, there was a hugely significant shift.
Speaker 4: And when we spent that time that where I was
Speaker 4: describing just looking at the material and sort of trying
Speaker 4: to work out where she sat within it and what
Speaker 4: she was saying. As soon as those anxieties were taken
Speaker 4: out of the equation, she was actually able to follow
Speaker 4: through with what she wanted to express. But actually with
Speaker 4: those things in place, it became impossible for her to
Speaker 4: complete what she was saying. It was like this massive
Speaker 4: obstacle that actually stopped her from owning what she was saying,
Speaker 4: and she needed to find deliberation and confidence and freedom
Speaker 4: to let go of anxieties around like perfection. And I
Speaker 4: think it's a really really common thing, especially in this
Speaker 4: day and age, and it feels to me like a
Speaker 4: really important thing to talk about because I think people
Speaker 4: need to they need to understand the dynamics of that
Speaker 4: stuff so that they can make those shifts in their
Speaker 4: own lives and in their own creativity and whatever they're undertaking.
Speaker 4: It was just incredibly exciting for me to see Rosie
Speaker 4: find a space for herself where she could actually finish
Speaker 4: what she was saying. It didn't have to hit a
Speaker 4: wall and then be sort of covered up by the stuff.
Speaker 3: It was like, actually, no, this is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: This is cheesy, and this is positive for like this
Speaker 4: is you know, and let's follow that through and let's
Speaker 4: actually own that. And I think that's that's something that
Speaker 4: I really feel very strongly in this music that we've
Speaker 4: made together.
Speaker 2: Just to finish on some quick fire questions that I
Speaker 2: want you both to answer, it's brief as you can.
Speaker 2: Your favorite track on.
Speaker 3: You Oh so mean? I don't like any of them.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna go for it changes every day, it changes
Speaker 5: every day, but I'm going to go for Mango because
Speaker 5: I feel like it's at the heart of the record
Speaker 5: and it embodies there's something spiritual through it that embodies
Speaker 5: everything else the record. When you're writing a record that
Speaker 5: feels like there's a middle point, for me that that
Speaker 5: was like the middle point for it.
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, I mean I kind of agree with that.
Speaker 4: That is what it came into my head. And I'm like,
Speaker 4: I'm lying on one level. It's not I don't have
Speaker 4: a favorite, but there there is just there's something going
Speaker 4: on with that tune that is just yeah, it's the
Speaker 4: only Rosy could do that track. And I love those moments.
Speaker 4: I love it when it's just like I feel like
Speaker 4: that about the whole record. But it's very intense on
Speaker 4: that tune. It's like, whoa, I don't know anyone else
Speaker 4: they could make that song. I'll say that stuff in
Speaker 4: that way, be that bold, melodically express that stuff. Lookally,
Speaker 4: I just don't know anyone else I can do that,
Speaker 4: and I just I love that. That just gives me,
Speaker 4: you know, tingles. That's kind of where it's at for me.
Speaker 4: I always just want to see people do what only
Speaker 4: they can do.
Speaker 2: One album from the last twelve months that isn't one
Speaker 2: that either of you have made that's really you just
Speaker 2: absolutely love and would like to recommend. Yeah, yeah, you guys,
Speaker 2: you're so on the same way. There be another so
Speaker 2: we've got from Dave.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm sorry, that's not fair.
Speaker 2: You can both choose the same record as.
Speaker 6: Fine exciting thing that's.
Speaker 3: Happened for a long time.
Speaker 2: And what's the best podcast that you've both been onto together.
Speaker 6: We've only ever been one other, So this is the.
Speaker 2: One that's exactly the answer that I was leading you into.
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