1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: It was you, Kristin, who shot you up. I watched 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: a lot of TV growing up. When I was nine, 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: I memorized the TV guide When my brother Lawrence told 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: Missus Barnett across the street that he had a younger brother. 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: She didn't believe him. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. 6 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: That's how little I went outside. I learned early on 7 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: that the television universe is divided into hour long dramas 8 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: I Trusted You, I Trusted You, and half hour sitcoms. 9 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: On dramas, death is a fact of life. Consider that, 10 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: over the course of the six seasons of The Sopranos, 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: ninety two characters died. You shot him at his bad 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: naked no chance to run, I swear gun. It's even 13 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: grizzlier on Game of Thrones, where characters have a seventy 14 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: percent chance of getting killed off and the records. But 15 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: today we're talking about something far more mysterious, something that's 16 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: haunted me ever since my childhood basement dwelling days, something 17 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: that just shouldn't happen. I'm Morocca and this is mobituaries. 18 00:01:36,480 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: This mobit sitcom depths and disappearances. I've brought in an 19 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: expert to help me investigate the phenomenon of sitcom depths 20 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: and disappearances. I'm Alan Sepinwall, chief TV critic for Rolling Stone. 21 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: I've been writing about TV since the nineties when there 22 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: were like five channels, and now there's you know, five 23 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: hundred different scripted shows on TV right now. I'm not 24 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: the first person to say, but there's too much TV. 25 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: There really is, you know, and it's good to hear, 26 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: like people who are not TV critics say that. And also, 27 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: the Western world's fertility rates are really low, so there's 28 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: just not enough people to watch these shows. You know, 29 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: who's going to watch Longmeyer. I don't have time to 30 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: do it. And I'm sure it's a fine show, but 31 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: there's so many other things, so many It's like when 32 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: you hear about how big the universe actually is and 33 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: it starts to hurt. Oh my god. And like the 34 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: Netflix interface alone, it's like you you could spend like 35 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: the length of a movie looking for a movie. Our 36 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: topic here is sitcom depths and disappearances. One of the 37 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: great mysteries. So I actually died once on TV. It 38 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: was not on a sitcom. It was on an hour 39 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: long drama on law and Order, criminal intent. I played 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: a gossip column. It's named t K. Richmond. They even 41 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: gave me a Fedora to wear. I've never ever watched this, 42 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: I promise you. I swear I've never seen this, and 43 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: I thought I would watch it with an esteemed television 44 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: critic for the first time. So Helen, if if you 45 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: join me for this, here we go. Okay, let's do it. 46 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: Oh God, that hat doesn't really work on me. Elliott, Elliott, 47 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: calm down. There's nothing that says that these pictures have 48 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: to run in my column, blackmail photos. We're in a 49 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: car now. It's not a bribe, it's an opportunity. This 50 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: is going to be the hot new place. The pictures 51 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: go away, right right. I do have a little integrity. 52 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: Did you just blow up? How was that? I just 53 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: blew up? Oh? Do they show my charred remains? Oh no? 54 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: Oh my hat? The hat survives. So that's good. What 55 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: do you think did I pass as a New York 56 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: Post gossip reporter? I mean your look was very sweet 57 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: smell of success. Well, thank you. I love any Tony 58 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: Curtis comparison. Okay, So lots of people die in hour 59 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: long dramas. I think, Actually, that's right. That's the main ingredients. 60 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: Somebody has to die in every law and order, and 61 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: there've been three thousand of them. But for someone to 62 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: die or disappear on a sitcom is much different. Why 63 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: Because sitcom's, in theory, are meant to be a little 64 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: bit lighter, more relatable, more relaxing. It's you're going to 65 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: spend some happy time laughing at, you know, someone tripping 66 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: over the couch, or forgetting to pick up the groceries 67 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: or something relatively simple. Death is not that. In other words, 68 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: sitcom audiences don't want characters to die, which is why 69 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: in some rare cases the characters have just disappeared without 70 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: any explanation, a syndrome given its own name, Cunningham syndrome. 71 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: Happy There was Chuck Cunningham, the third Cunningham child on 72 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: Happy Days, the eldest Cunningham child, who was in the 73 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: show for two seasons and then was never heard from 74 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: or mentioned again. Anna, who was Chuck Cunningham? You said 75 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: the third child, But I'm glad you corrected yourself and 76 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: said the eldest, because he was the first child. Not 77 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 1: that Howard or Marion acted like he was particularly special. 78 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: I mean he lived in the apartment above the garage 79 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: before funds. He did. He was usually when you saw 80 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: him either carrying a basketball or eating food, or possibly both. 81 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: I gotta go to basketball practice. He was not really 82 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: a prominent part of the show. And then a couple 83 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: of years in the producers decided we don't need another 84 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: Cunningham and we want Funzy to live above the garage, 85 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: and so Chuck disappeared and never came back. You write 86 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: the basketball in the sandwich or his chief accessories. I mean, 87 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: that's the thing we remember from him, Chuck, I've told 88 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: you not to dribble in the house, all right, Dad. 89 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: Do we remember anything about him really? Well? I think 90 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: we remember that he disappeared. Yes, But when that's the 91 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: most memorable thing about you, that sort of speaks to 92 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: why they were willing to get rid of him in 93 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: the first place. Good point, good, Well, do you think 94 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: the fix was in for him? Did it feel like 95 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: vultures were circling over him during those first two seasons? Well, 96 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: I mean he started getting less and less to do, 97 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: and that was a show that was obviously going through 98 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: a lot of behind the scenes transformations over those first 99 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: couple of years. Is that right? Yeah, Fonnzi's a relatively 100 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: minor character when you start watching the show. They wouldn't 101 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: even allow him to wear the black leather jacket when 102 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: he was on the motorcycle because the network feared that 103 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: he looked too much like a hoodlum and the audience 104 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to watch that. And once they decided to 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: beef up Fonzie's role, and you have shift it from 106 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: a single camp sitcom shot on film to a multicam 107 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: shot in front of an audience. Bye Bye, Chuck. So 108 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: I talked to Henry Winkler and I asked him did 109 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: Chuck have to disappear? And here's what he said. They 110 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: did not have room in the writing for the older 111 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: brother because the fawns became the older brother. Everything that 112 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: you would go to the older brother for, Richie went 113 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: to the fawns for Yeah. I mean, if you had 114 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: to choose between who you were going to get advice 115 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: from about girls, about cars, about being cool, about being anything, 116 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: why would you not go to Arthur Fonzarelli. All right, now, 117 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: this is en up girl. One time, one time, Molly 118 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: Line might not pick kiss the fonds. That's a bogging 119 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: at any right right exactly, And so Gary Marshall, the 120 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: creator of Happy Days, it was obviously great at what 121 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: he did. So he makes the calculation that if this 122 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: character disappears, the audience will be fine with it, something 123 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: that I asked Henry about. Only years later did I 124 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: ask Gary what happened? And he explained to me, Hey, 125 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: what did he say? It was the older brother and 126 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to write for him, and then 127 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: the right for you, and we had to let him go, 128 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: and there was a terror. Well the thing he went upstairs. 129 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: He never a game down, and Gary understood that the 130 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: audience would accept that. Gary understood television was so well 131 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: or well enough to know that if you've got this 132 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: problem and you write him out, you don't make a 133 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: big deal out of getting rid of the character. It 134 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: will be like slime. You can poke a hole in 135 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: the slime and it closes in on itself and becomes 136 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: whole again. So Alan was Henry right about this. Mostly obviously, 137 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: people still brought it up. They bring it up all 138 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: the time, and especially whenever in the later seasons Howard 139 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: or Marion would make a reference to their two children. 140 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: In the very last episode of the series, Joni and 141 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: Chachi get married, and Howard makes a toast, you know, 142 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: talking about all the happy days that he and Marion 143 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: have had, and he says, but we've had the joy 144 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: of raising two wonderful kids. And I was nerdy enough 145 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: even at that age to say, what about Chuck? I mean, 146 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: harsh Henry told me he gets asked all the time 147 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: about Chuck's fate. Oh a million times, Hey, what happened 148 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: to Chuck? Nobody is really interested, and they just love 149 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: the question, do you know. I'm so sorry, but it's true. Yeah, No, 150 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: no one actually cares about Chuck. It's literally just the 151 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: fact that they pretended he didn't exist. I think if 152 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: they'd said Chuck moved away, Chuck goes to Seattle exactly, 153 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: he could have just become an offstage character that they 154 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: refer to occasionally. Yeah, I mean, you know, not all 155 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: families are so tight knit that they're always around and 156 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: always in each other's business. You know. Even if Chuck 157 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: didn't never falling out, maybe he just had a full 158 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: life of his own far far away from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 159 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: So for Phonsie to live, Chuck had to die. Yes, 160 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: the sitcom universe is even harsher than the Law and 161 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: Order Criminal Intent universe. Yeah, I mean, it's just like 162 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: because he's not even dead, He's no longer in this reality. 163 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: It's sad. Well, Alan, as I'm sure you know, the 164 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: Internet is replete with theories about what happened to Chuck, 165 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: So of course I had to run some of these 166 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: by Henry confirm or deny some of these widely circulated 167 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: theories among fans about what happened to Chuck Cunningham. One 168 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: he died in Vietnam. No, still in his bedroom. Yes, 169 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: this is a serious one. Was gay and disowned by 170 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: his family because it was the nineteen fifties. Oh no, 171 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,239 Speaker 1: I don't think he would have been disowned by the Cunningham's. 172 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: I think that Missus C for sure would have embraced him. 173 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: Would mister C really been okay with that? Mister C 174 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: was very busy with hammers. Remember he owned a hardware 175 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: store that was like always on the brink, right right, okay, 176 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: So he was otherwise occupied, So Missus C would have 177 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: handled this, okay. Gary Marshall always told people that Chuck 178 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: Cunningham got a basketball scholarship in Mongolia. That sounds really right, 179 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: And the sad truth is I think we're all used 180 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: to sort of pretending that someone who has existed doesn't 181 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: exist anymore. Yep, yep, I I've done that. Had we 182 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: go to a very dark place. But it's true. We've 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: all had an older relative tell us, don't talk about 184 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: that person. That person doesn't exist anymore. Yes, there's these 185 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: family feuds and suddenly we don't talk about this aunt anymore. Yeah. 186 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: I mean, Chuck could have done something really awful. The 187 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: Cunningham's are a very decent, you know, apple pie kind 188 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: of family. Chuck could have been a deviant. Oh. By 189 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: the way, that last episode of Jonie and Chocci getting 190 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: married that led to the spinoff, No, no, no, the 191 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: spinoff was in the middle of the show. It wasn't 192 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: really Yes, they left Happy Days for like maybe half 193 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: a year maybe more to go do Jonie Loves Chocci, 194 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: which is the worst theme song in the history of television, right. 195 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: I actually liked Joni Loves Chocci. I always thought there 196 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: it would be fun. And there as yet another spinoff 197 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: where Jonie moves to the shore and opens a little 198 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: store where she sells knick knacks and bobbles, and it 199 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: would be called Jonas I'm so glad. I love that 200 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: you got it. You know what ever gets it? Oh 201 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: my god. And now we take a moment to remember 202 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: another dearly departed sitcom character, Judy Winslow, who spent four 203 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: seasons on the nineteen nineties hit sitcom Family Matters. Family 204 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: Matters told a story of a working class family in 205 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: Chicago with three kids. Judy was the youngest. Hi, this 206 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: is Jamie Foxworth, and most people might know me as 207 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: Judy Winslow from the television show Family Matters. Jamie Foxworth 208 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: started playing Judy when she was just a middle schooler. 209 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: Judy was the sassy little girl with a quick wit 210 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: and shark one liners what I'm called and I'm Craig lessively. 211 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: But over time Jamie started to notice that Judy wasn't 212 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: being given as much sass to throw around. I was 213 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: getting less and less screen time. And it was always 214 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: like Judy goes up to her room, Like I would 215 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: literally be down, you know, in the live room with 216 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: everybody else, and I would say, okay, guys, and the 217 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: next thing you know, Judy's right up the steps, just 218 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: like the fawns in Happy Days. Family Matters had found 219 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: its star, a pesky next door neighbor in suspenders and thick, 220 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: grimmed glasses speaker the latter service. That's right, Erkele, because 221 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: his unstoppable rise would mean the sad decline of Judy Winslow. Yes, 222 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: you did, Erkele. It was during the taping of what 223 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: would be her final episode that Jamie noticed people acting strangely. 224 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: I do remember just the cast just coming up to 225 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: me and like giving me so much love and hugs 226 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: and affection, and I was like, what's going on here 227 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: are you guys? Like why is everybody acting so weird? 228 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: She remembers that Reginald vell Johnson, who played her father 229 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: on the show, was particularly emotional. He was literally on 230 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: his knees and he was in tears, and I just 231 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: remember looking at him like, dude, what is going on? 232 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: On February twenty six, nineteen ninety three, as fans, well, 233 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: remember Grandma Winslow got married. Judy was a flower girl. 234 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: She walked down the aisle and was never seen again. 235 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: To this day, everyone asked me the same question, what 236 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: happened to you? How could they just leave the daughter off? 237 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: And I'm like, hey, you gotta ask those producers I don't. 238 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they thought that people would 239 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: just forget, and nobody forgot. The character of Judy was 240 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: survived by her older brother and sister, her mother and 241 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: father rcle Okay, as weird as a character disappearing into 242 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: the either, maybe there's another occurrence which is equally disorienting, 243 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: an actor who suddenly disappears replaced by another actor in 244 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: the same role. This first famously happened on the nineteen 245 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: sixties hit fantasy sitcom Bewitched, when, after five successful seasons, 246 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: the show's leading man underwent a casting change, giving rise 247 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: to what would become known in TV lore as the 248 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: two Darren's. I caught up with Lila Garrett, who wrote 249 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: for Bewitched and experienced the ripples of the Darren effect firsthand. Hi, 250 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm Lila Garrett, and I'm a writer and a producer 251 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: and a director. Some people think of me as a legend. 252 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: I don't enjoy thinking of myself that way. Lilah, I 253 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: would say that you're a legend. I know, I know 254 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: it's a heavy burden, but I'm willing to courage. Lilah 255 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: wrote for top scripted shows like Get Smart and All 256 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: in the Family and the Lucy Show at a time 257 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: when women were rarely seen in a writer's room. She's 258 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: got two Emmys and a Writer's Guild Award to show 259 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: for it, but out of the more than thirty shows 260 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: she's written for, it's not hard for her to name 261 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: her favorite. There is no show that I have ever 262 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: done that I enjoyed more than Bewitched, and I enjoyed 263 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: every minute of it. Bewitched was a big hit in 264 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties into the nineteen seventies. It was about 265 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,479 Speaker 1: a young, happy couple housewife Samantha played by Elizabeth Montgomery 266 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: and ad executive husband Darren originally played by Dick Yorke. 267 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: The only problem on their honeymoon night, she tells him 268 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: that there's something that she's kept secret from him. She 269 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: is a witch. And rather than be excited about the 270 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: possibility of having this vitiful wife who can also perform 271 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: magic and do anything for him, Darren Stevens decides that 272 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: he you know, he's a man, Gosh Darnett, and he 273 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: does not want his wife doing magic. And the eternal 274 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: struggle of the show is all these magical hijinks happening 275 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: in the background, much to Darren's frustration, which means that 276 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: Darren Stevens character is essential. Yes, because he is always 277 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: exasperated by what happens. Yes, you've been sticking that magic 278 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: nose of yours where it doesn't belong. Again, don't write 279 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: a deny it all right, I won't come on, Sam, 280 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: don't make me. Greg and Audio just Dick York was 281 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: really good. Yeah, he's very good to me. He's sort 282 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: of Jim Carry good. Yes, he's very expressive, very just 283 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: sort of a memorable vocal comic, even to extent physical comic. 284 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: He had a great face. Yeah, I mean real plastic. 285 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: I would say a rubber face. Rubber Yeah, it could 286 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: go anywhere. You know. Every expression of his was wonderful 287 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: and clear in this It's funny. His responses to everything 288 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: that was happening around him drove a lot of comedy 289 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: on the show. Samantha, despite having the magic powers, she's 290 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: the straight man on the show. He's the one having 291 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: the fun because he can't believe what's going on around him. 292 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: What a little favor I ask you to do? And 293 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: what do you do? You? We go that beak of 294 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: yours and really caused problem. He was spectacular and he 295 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: was a spectacular man. As great as he was in 296 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: the role, Dick York had a secret. Well. We first 297 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: noticed the problems with Dick York Brilliant the second year. 298 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: Suddenly he couldn't make it for the show that we 299 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: were writing. And at first it just seemed as though 300 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: he may have had the flu and so on. But 301 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: when it became a habit, we recognized that there was 302 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: a real problem there. Unultimately we found out what that 303 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: problem was. York had sustained a serious back injury on 304 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: the set of the nineteen fifty nine Western. They came 305 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: to Cordura. Acting became harder and harder for him, and 306 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: then practically intolerable some scenes and Bewitched. He could only 307 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: do sitting or lying down. He took medication to manage 308 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: the pain and ultimately became dependent. Dick Yorke started missing 309 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: shows so often the writers had to create what they 310 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: called non Darren shows. On these episodes, the writers would 311 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: render Darren invisible for most of the half hour, often 312 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: via witchcraft. With Darren out of the picture, they leaned 313 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: on Samantha's colorful relatives to fill out the episode. There 314 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: was Uncle Arthur, who was played by paul In one 315 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: of the world's greatest comics. One morning, I shot a 316 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: line in my pajamas, Now what he was doing in 317 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: my pa And then there was and Dora played by 318 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: Agnes Moorehead. Darwood is already a practical jew who was 319 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: Samantha's mischievous, kind of playfully vicious mother. But there was 320 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: only so much slack the secondary characters could pick up. Eventually, 321 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: Dick York was hospitalized and left the show. So Dick 322 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: York was gone. But what to do about the character 323 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: of Darren. She can't divorce him. The whole structure of 324 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: the show is based on this marriage, So what are 325 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: you gonna do? They really can't get divorced because even 326 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: years later, when they wanted to make Mary Tyler Morris 327 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: character Mary Richards a divorced woman, that alone was scandalous. Yeah, 328 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: and you're certainly not going to divorce a beloved couple 329 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: in the middle of the show. We couldn't possibly kill 330 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: off the first Darren because he was part of the 331 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: concept of the show. This was a love affair. And 332 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: then someone who looked a lot like Dick York was 333 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: cast as Darren, and that was Dick Sargeant. So Dick 334 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: Sargeant replaces Dick York and they just acted like it 335 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: was the same Darren the whole time. But let's face it, 336 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: you never forget your first Darren. This one wasn't the same, 337 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: especially his connection to Samantha. Honey, You're beautiful, sweet, clever, adorable, 338 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and I love you madly. It works well, it doesn't 339 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: work on me, but I love you. Did they lack chemistry? 340 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Montgomery with the second Darren was Dick Sargeant. Yes, 341 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I had to use the word lack, but their chemistry 342 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: was different. Chemistry is chemistry. With Dick Sargeant, you felt 343 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: as though, oh, let her use magic. Who cares? Darren 344 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: the first was in much more agony and anxiety than 345 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: Darren the second. Just listen to how the new Darren 346 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: says his wife's name. Now listen to Darren classic. And 347 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: Dick Sargeant would have been more appropriately cast as ahead 348 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: of a detective agency. And he's a good actor, nothing 349 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: wrong with him, but he wasn't right for the part 350 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: of Darren, and that hurt the show. So did that 351 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: change what he had to do in the writer's room. Well, 352 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: we've got Darren number two in less trouble because he 353 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: didn't handle it as vulnerably as Darren number one did, 354 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: and therefore it wasn't fun, you know, and he became 355 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: more of an observer than a participant. It never captured 356 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: the same magic. No one ever denied that, and it 357 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: did kind of shake a slow up, and once again 358 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: it was that zany cast or secondary characters to the 359 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: rescue and Dora, Uncle Arthur helping out here Alan doctor 360 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: Bombay played by Bernard Fox. Alice Ghostly came in as 361 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: as Morelda. There was a lot of sort of ancillary 362 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: magical characters who had to pick up the slack that 363 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: Dick Sargent was leaving them. You could basically do anything 364 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: except stories about the Stevens marriage because that ceased to 365 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: be interesting almost immediately after Dicky York left in. Dick 366 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: Sargeant came in. These were all great satellite characters, but 367 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: without that core. Yeah, you know, it's like here's a 368 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: bunch of great side dishes that we now have to 369 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: serve as your entree, I mean, Sergeant's first season as Darren, 370 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: the show's ratings dropped from number twelve to number twenty four. 371 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: The following season, it fell off the ratings Cliff and 372 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: was canceled. This wouldn't be the first or last time 373 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: a major character had had a casting change mid run. 374 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: The Darren handoff may be the most remembered mid run 375 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: casting change on a television show, but this kind of 376 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: thing has happened on more than a few beloved sitcoms. 377 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the most famous one I think since then 378 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: is Aunt viv on The Fresh Prince of bel Air, 379 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: when Janet Hubert Whitten got replaced by Daphne Maxwell read 380 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: and I think it was because she and Will Smith 381 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: did not get along. And then with Roseanne, Yes, Roseanne, 382 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: they replaced one Becky with another because Licy Gorenson I think, 383 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: wanted to go off to college, and so Sarah Chalk 384 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: came in and after a certain point they were rotating 385 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: back and forth. After Gorenson started acting again, and then 386 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: on the revival, Gorenson's playing Becky, but Sarah Chalk played 387 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: another part right, and they were very witty about it. 388 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: Back in the nineties, we're talking about the original run 389 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: of Roseanne. There was even a scene, I think, where 390 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: they're watching Bewitched and they're commenting on the two different Darrens. 391 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: Instead of making an inside joke, a self referential joke. 392 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: I cannot believe that they replaced that Darren. Well, I 393 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 1: like the second Darren much better. There is something to 394 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: learn from the case of the two Darrens, right about 395 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: how a show really can be affected the whole show. Yeah, 396 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: and obviously I understand no one wanted to stop the 397 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: money train, but it did fundamentally transform once they had 398 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: a lesser Darren come in and they had to figure 399 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: things out from there. Oh. By the way, I remember 400 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where they're talking about the 401 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: two Darren's, and either Larry or maybe Jerry Seinfeld was 402 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: actually guesting on it said, no one wants to be 403 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: a second Darren. I'd forgotten you mentioned that until now, 404 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: isn't it when Larry winds up having to replace Jason 405 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: Alexander is George when they're making the pilot with two Darren's. Yeah, unbewitched. 406 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: Nobody liked that second Darren. I didn't care for the 407 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: second day bought it. That's right, right, but it's true. 408 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: I mean I feel a little bit badly for the 409 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: dearly departed Dick Sargeant that he's become. Um, what's the 410 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: word that he's defined that now that he's that, he's yeah, 411 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: anyway that he represents that. Look, being the second Darren 412 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: was very lucrative for Dick's argent. You know, I'm sure 413 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: he would rather be that than to have not had 414 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: a primetime TV job for those final seasons of a Witch. Well, 415 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: that's a great point. That's a great point. Being a 416 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: second Darren is yeah, is a lot better than not 417 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: being a Darren at all. There, thank you exactly. Can 418 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: you please embroider that on a pillow for me. I'll 419 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: work on it. For all their differences, Dick York and 420 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: Dick Sargeant had something in common beyond that role they 421 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: played on TV. They both led exemplary post Darren lives. 422 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety one, Dick Sargeant, at age sixty one, 423 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: came out until his death a year later, he advocated 424 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: for gay rights, with his friend and TV wife, the 425 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: wonderful Elizabeth Montgomery right by his side. Dick Yorke couldn't 426 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: find much acting work after Bewitched and ended up poor 427 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: living off of his pension check. All the more remarkable 428 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: then that he and his wife Joan dedicated their remaining 429 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: years to helping the homeless by collecting and handing out food, clothes, 430 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: and betting. Dick York died on February twentieth, nineteen ninety two. 431 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: Less than two years later, Dick Sargent died on July eighth, 432 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Two. Darren's both pretty good eggs. All right, Allan, 433 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: Now we're transitioning to a whole other class of sitcom death, 434 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: the death of a character as part of the plot, 435 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: especially jarring when that character is the title character. Oh 436 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: r I p Valerie sweet So Valerie Harper, beloved star, 437 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: co star of The Mary Tyler Moore Show, star of 438 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: Rhoda just beloved TV icon. In the middle late eighties, 439 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: she had a comeback new family sitcom called Valerie, where 440 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: she played the mom to three kids, one of them 441 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: played by Jason Bateman. The husband was an airline pilot, 442 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: so he wasn't around very much and it was just 443 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: here's you know, Valerie Harper in the next phase of 444 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: her career, sit Mom. The show ran two seasons. At 445 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: the end of the second season, Valerie Harper said, Hey, 446 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: I would like more money. I'm not being paid enough. 447 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: My name is in the title. I feel I should 448 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: be compensated more, and instead the studio said, no, we 449 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: can do the show without you. The audience seems to 450 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: like the kids better anyway, and so rather than pay 451 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: her what she wanted, they wrote her out of the show. 452 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: They killed off the character. They brought in Sandy Duncan 453 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: as her husband's sister, I think, to move in as 454 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: sort of the surrogate mom of the kids. The dad 455 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: was around slightly more, and for a season or two 456 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: they changed the title to Valerie's Family, and then eventually 457 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: it's a subtitle, yes, Valerie's Family colin the Hogans, sort 458 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: of like Twelfth Night, What you Will or Rambo First 459 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: Blood Party title. Yes, And then within a year or 460 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: so it just became the Hogan Family and references to 461 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: their late great mother went the way of Chuck Cunningham. 462 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: They completely disappeared. So it was the Hogan Family, Nay, 463 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: Valerie's Family, the Hogans, nay. Correct a lot of as 464 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: they say, iterations, why is this so funny? It's just again, 465 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: because you can do death on certain sitcom Certain shows 466 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: are equipped for it because they have kind of a 467 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: level of gravitas, or because they do the death in 468 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: such a ridiculous way like when Chuckles the clown dies 469 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Either way, you can 470 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: sort of work death into a sitcom field. But this 471 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: was a very light and silly and superficial sitcom about 472 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: family life. And you know, am I going to get 473 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: my driver's lightnse or not? Am I going to have 474 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: a date to the dance? And suddenly mom is dead 475 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: because the actress had a salary dispute, And it's injecting 476 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: this really somber tone into the show, which the show 477 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: almost immediately wants to make you forget about because it's 478 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: this unpleasant thing they've done where they have to get 479 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: rid of Valerie Harper because she was too expensive. And 480 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: you make a good point that the form, the sitcom form, 481 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: can sustain death, I mean all in the family. Yes, 482 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: death is incredibly moving. No, yeah, she's just puttering around 483 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: the bar and in the house and you don't know 484 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: what's going on, and then you realize at the end, no, 485 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: Edith's gone. It's amazing the right show can pull it off. 486 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: Cheers Frasier. Certain sitcoms are built for it. This one 487 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 1: really wasn't, and wasn't even interested in exploring it. So 488 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: Sandy Duncan comes on in the third season. In the 489 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: first episode of that season, they just make very passing 490 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: reference to the death of Valerie in a car crash. Yes, 491 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: Sandy Duncan has moved in the Dad is getting ready 492 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: to go back, you know, flying airlines again, and you know, 493 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: life goes on. Oh well, Dad, it's been six months 494 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: since mom died, and I think it's time you got 495 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: back in the air. Besides, we'll be fine. Yeah, I've 496 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: got it, Sandy done. So they don't spend a lot 497 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: of time morning hard and the father, who was always 498 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: sort of a secondary character, is going back in the sky. Michael, 499 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: you'll be back in a week. It's the first time 500 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: I've left the boy since Bella's automobile accident. I know, 501 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: keep done a terrific job. I just think it's time 502 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: for everyone to get on with their lives. I have 503 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: to say I love Towards the end of the episode, 504 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: Sandy Duncan, who is fabulous. She acknowledges Valerie Harper's character, 505 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: but barely. I mean, let's just say it's not exactly moving. 506 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: I didn't make the decision to move here over nine. 507 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: I thought long and hard about it. So then why 508 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: did you for a lot of reasons, my feelings for 509 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: your father and your mother and you kids obligatory. But 510 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: then that same season, only two episodes later, the family 511 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: is rummaging through the attic when something super unsitcommy happens. 512 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: She can't get your lamp to work, mister wizard, couldn't 513 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: get that lamp to work? Well, let's go, Oh no, 514 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: the lamp is sparking, and even that music is suddenly 515 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: not sit commy, Right, I think I think it's meant 516 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: to be dramatic. Right, it's got a little Laura More 517 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, they all head downstairs to bad until 518 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: the smell of smoke wakes Aunt Sandia and now they're 519 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: actually really having to act. Yes, and now they're safely 520 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: down on the front lawn as their house burns to 521 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: the ground. This is very this is us And after 522 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: the commercial breakword back in sitcom Land, how is your Jake? 523 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of it's kind of a weird mashup, right, 524 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: especially when you consider that they've blown off Valerie's death 525 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: in the season premiere, right, and it's and they're not 526 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: even doing it in the episode. Sort of in the 527 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: aftermath of her death. They decide, all right, well we're 528 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: gonna do We're gonna come back at the start of 529 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: the season. She's been dead six months, so we get 530 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: to skip past the grief because grief is messy and 531 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: awkward and not really what we do. And then a 532 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: couple of episodes later, oh, we'll burn down the attic, 533 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: which will let us redesign the sets but also give 534 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: Jason Bateman a chance to play some grief. Now, it 535 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: may interest you to know that I have talked to 536 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: both Jason Bateman and Sandy Duncan separately about the Valerie situation, 537 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: and they have the same recollection and it's the wrong 538 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: recollection about how Valerie died. Really, they burned her dead 539 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: in the house, and then they shot the episode where 540 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: we discover her and that was odd for half hour sitcom. 541 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: But wait that she died in a house fire. Yeah, 542 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: and I'll fall apart crying. And it was a very 543 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: special two part mo. I was playing the aunt and 544 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: I moved in to take care of the kids because 545 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: I love sitcom and they're so funny. She burned down 546 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: in a house, so it was a fire that ended 547 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: that contract. They both think that she got burned in 548 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: a big old house fire. Oh my god, Sandy was 549 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: shocked when I said no, she had supposedly died in 550 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: a car wreck. Here's the interesting thing. You both remember 551 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: the original title character of the star Valerie having died 552 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: in a house fire. Yeah, all right now, I don't 553 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: want to burst your bubble here, but she actually died 554 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: in a car crash. I don't know if she serious. Yep, 555 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: that is. You'd just dig to the truth, don't you. 556 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea, I swear. Do you think actors 557 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: are just learned so many lines that they forget what 558 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: they do? Are we just not too bright? I don't know. So, Sandy, 559 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: here's my question. To get Valerie off the show? Did 560 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: they have to have her character die? Well? I think 561 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: because they had established this happy home life and happy marriage, 562 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: there wasn't much of another way to exit her, do 563 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? They wouldn't have gotten a divorce, 564 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: They didn't want her lying in a hospital with some 565 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: incurable disease. So I think it was swift and to 566 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: the point and got over it and went on. They 567 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: had to kill her instantly instantly. It does seem like 568 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: there's a blurrier line between comedies and traumas now so 569 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: that now it's not as jarring or it can be 570 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: treated in a more natural And also because Valerie's family. 571 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, by the way, when you watch 572 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: about it, I mean it's just a terrible show, sure, 573 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: but you know, Jason Bateman was adorable and had great 574 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: comic timing, so that gets you eight seasons, right. And 575 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: Sandy Duncan, I mean was terrific coming in. Yep. I 576 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: mean she did what she needed to do. Yeah, people 577 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: love Sandy Duncan. I think, you know, if you were 578 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 1: predisposed to watch that show because it was the Valerie 579 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: Harper Show and they were now killing off Valerie Harper, 580 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: you have to bring in someone who's supremely likable to 581 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: get away with it, and Sandy Duncan definitely fits that. Bill. 582 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to end this episode talking once again about 583 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: my own TV death on Law and Order. I just 584 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: want to point out that I almost actually died in 585 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: that role, really not because of the car crash, but 586 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: because I was playing a chain smoking gossip columnist and 587 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: because I'm a method actor, I prepared for the role 588 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: by smoking lots of filterless cigarettes. And I mean lots, 589 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: mind you, I'd smoked a couple of cigarettes in my life. 590 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, and that's it. So right before 591 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: one of my scenes, I began throwing up, like truly 592 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: projectile vomiting, and I just want to thank all these 593 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: years later, I want to thank the crew of Law 594 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: and Order Criminal Intent, because as I was hurling, I 595 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: kept thinking, all these people want to start laughing right now, 596 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: and they're not laughing, and I wanted to just be 597 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: able to say, like, it's okay, you can laugh, because 598 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: this is a ridiculous situation. So here's my question. If 599 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: you know, God forbid you had actually fallen to your 600 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: death because of the reaction for the cigarettes, who would 601 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: you have wanted to play that role in your stead? Oh? 602 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: My god, Well, Sandy Duncan, of course. I mean, come on, 603 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: I love Peter Pan, I love wheat thins, I love 604 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: Sandy Dunk, love Run Scooby Doo. I love Run Scooby Doo. 605 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: So I definitely would have wanted Sandy Duncan playing me. No, 606 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: that's an excellent choice. Alan Steppenwall, thank you so much. 607 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: Mo my absolute pleasure. I feel heaven every moment. Next 608 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: time on Mobituaries, the trailblazers whose paths were somehow erased, 609 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: the forgotten forerunners. She's really the Rosa Parks of New York, 610 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: and most New Yorkers, most Americans, have no idea. How 611 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: much does this historical amnesia bother you? I mean, it's infuriating, 612 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: It's absolutely infuriating. I certainly hope you enjoyed this mobid 613 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: be sure to rate and review our podcast. You can 614 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, and you can 615 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Morocca. You can subscribe to 616 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: Mobituaries wherever you get your podcasts. For more great content 617 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: and to watch my fiery death on Law and Order 618 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: Criminal Intent, please go to mobituaries dot com. This episode 619 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: of Mobituaries was produced by Kate mccauliffe. Our team of 620 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: producers also includes Gideon Evans, Meghan Marcus, Meghan Dietree, and 621 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: me Morocca. It was engineered by David Herman, indispensable support 622 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: from Genie Staneski, Kira Wardlow, Richard Rohr, and special thanks 623 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: to Alan Seppenwall and Dan Dzula. Our theme music was 624 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: written by Daniel Hart and as always, undying thanks to 625 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: Rand Morrison and John carp without whom Mobituaries couldn't live. Hi, 626 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: It's mo. If you're enjoying Mobituaries the podcast, may I 627 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: invite you to check out Mobituaries the book. It's chock 628 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: full of stories not in the podcast. Celebrities who put 629 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: their butts on the line, sports teams that threw in 630 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: the towel for good, forgotten fashions, Defunct diagnoses presidential candidacies 631 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: that cratered whole countries that went could put and dragons, Yes, dragons, 632 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: you see. People used to believe the dragons will reel 633 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: until just get the book. You can order Mobituaries the 634 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: Book from any online bookseller or stop by your local 635 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: bookstore and look for me when I come to your city. 636 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: To our information and lots more at mulbituaries dot com. 637 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: M