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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abuse the power that

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Speaker 2: you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 2: trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation

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Speaker 2: from two pre bunkers who've actually experienced it. I'm Lo

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Speaker 2: Lablanc and you guys are going to find out what

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Speaker 2: that means soon.

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Speaker 5: And I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is Mikey Biddlestone, post doc researcher at

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Speaker 2: the Cambridge Social Decision Making Lab whose focus is on

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Speaker 2: conspiracy beliefs, misinformation and political psychology. And y'all, I've been

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Speaker 2: pronouncing Cambridge wrong, just so you know. He's going to

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Speaker 2: tell us about what factors make a person more susceptible

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Speaker 2: to spiratorial thinking, the value these kinds of beliefs bring

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Speaker 2: and then no longer bring to people's lives, and how

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Speaker 2: making conspiracy theorist believe that they are being discriminated against

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Speaker 2: can actually backfire and make them double down.

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Speaker 1: We'll also talk about the idea of pre bunking and

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Speaker 1: why it's more effective than debunking, the connection between narcissism

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Speaker 1: and conspiracy theories, some of the real world dangers of

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, and what we can do about it.

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Speaker 2: That's right, This is such a fascinating episode in continuation

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Speaker 2: of Conspiracy Month. But before we dive in with Mikey, Megan,

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Speaker 2: kindly tell me your cultiest thing of this week.

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Speaker 1: So, the cultiest thing that happened to me this week

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Speaker 1: is I've been seeing all this news about the new

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Speaker 1: Avatar movie and Kate Winslet holds her breath for seven

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Speaker 1: minutes to shoot one of the scenes.

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Speaker 5: What okay, Everybody's like.

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Speaker 1: Could you believe she learned how to hold her breath

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Speaker 1: for so long? And then other actors are like, I

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Speaker 1: did this, And then I read that Leonardo DiCaprio got

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Speaker 1: inside of a bear carcass like Till Swan claims that

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Speaker 1: happened to her with an alien.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah, in the Revenant, The Revenant, I love

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Speaker 2: that movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah great, But did he have to get inside a

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Speaker 1: bear carcass?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Seven minutes? Is that real?

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Speaker 2: Seven minutes? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean that's what I read on the Daily my

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Speaker 1: favorite website, the Daily Mail.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it looks like it looks like it's real.

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Speaker 1: It looks like it's a real fact, and it just

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Speaker 1: kind of made me think, Wow, actors really do some

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Speaker 1: crazy shit for this acting cred of like I'm so deep,

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Speaker 1: I did it so well, and whether it's good or not,

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably great. It is slightly obnoxious.

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Speaker 2: I was at a party ones and a celebrity who

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Speaker 2: I guess I won't name. I mean it's not it's

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Speaker 2: not like that crazy or anything, but a male actor

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Speaker 2: whose name you would all.

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Speaker 5: Know, Patrick Demski.

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Speaker 2: That's not his name even that guy's name, so definitely not.

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Speaker 3: What's me out of the kay?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I have nine more guesses, just kidding, Okay, go on.

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Speaker 2: This happened to with friends of mine that you know,

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Speaker 2: all the boys actually, but this was years ago. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: this name actor so getting really hostile. It was very weird.

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Speaker 2: And then afterward I guess he like went and cooled

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Speaker 2: down and he came back and he was like, sorry, man,

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Speaker 2: I'm preparing for a role. Stop blaming his aggressive reactionary

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Speaker 2: behavior on his method acting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd rather do med than method acting.

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Speaker 3: Nice A quote for the ages, What about you?

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Speaker 5: What's the cultiest thing you did this week?

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Speaker 3: And he's not very colty, not you that you did

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Speaker 3: or that.

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Speaker 5: You saw whatever.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I went to meditation. I went to an

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Speaker 2: in person meditations. First time I've done that since pre pandemic.

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Speaker 2: But I've been very stressed this week for reasons. I'll

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Speaker 2: get into it at some point, but it was interesting.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was They do these meditations at the

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Speaker 2: Masonic lodge at the cemetery.

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Speaker 3: Do you know about this?

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Speaker 2: Well, they do once a week and okay, so you're

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Speaker 2: in this like gorgeous building like in the cemetery and

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Speaker 2: someone is like guiding you through meditation for thirty minutes

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Speaker 2: and then you kind of talk about it.

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Speaker 3: I you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think I talked a few weeks ago about how

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Speaker 2: I've been feeling like, oh, I need some kind of

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Speaker 2: like spirituality or something, but I don't believe in anything,

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Speaker 2: so it's really hard to kind of like forge my

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Speaker 2: own path or like not just like learning. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I just need like growth in my life right now.

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Speaker 3: But I could.

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Speaker 2: I was sitting there and listening to this like British

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Speaker 2: man read us poems and guide us through meditation and like,

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Speaker 2: you know, listen to us when we each were describing

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Speaker 2: our experiences and what's happening with us, and I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is why people join calls, this is why new

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Speaker 2: age groups get so popular.

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Speaker 5: Oh it's so yummy.

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Speaker 3: It's like you have like.

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Speaker 2: This incredibly safe space to talk about everything you're feeling,

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Speaker 2: and there's like a man who wants to read poems

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Speaker 2: to you. I mean, and then you're doing everyone's doing

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Speaker 2: soul searching together in this very peaceful place.

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Speaker 3: I get it, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but this doesn't sound like a cult.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get why it's your cultiest thing, but

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Speaker 1: I think you could go to this every week and

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Speaker 1: be a really healthy person.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's not culty. Yeah, yeah, it's not culty. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just but I also see like how something how

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Speaker 2: like groups that start off this way totally can I

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Speaker 2: bring people in and then kind of like you know,

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Speaker 2: you really are and like in a position of I

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Speaker 2: was just like listening to him talk and he was

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Speaker 2: totally great, totally responsible and kind and sweet and wise

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Speaker 2: and like totally on board with this guy. But like

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Speaker 2: anyone else in his position who like even has a

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Speaker 2: shred of narcissism, Like, yeah, are probably gonna get a

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Speaker 2: little bit hooked on the power that they have over

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Speaker 2: people who are you know, they're wrapped audience looking for

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Speaker 2: wisdom nuggets or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But this, this place is great. It's through inside LA.

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Speaker 2: Highly recommend they do a lot of great guided meditations

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Speaker 2: with a lot of different kinds of teachers and it's

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Speaker 2: not you know, you don't it's not like a thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars or whatever like TM, so you know, shout out all.

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Speaker 5: Right, cool, anyway, take me next time, come with me?

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Speaker 5: All right? Cool?

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Speaker 2: All right, that's it for my culties thing. Should we

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Speaker 2: talk to Mikey Biddlestone. Now let's talk to doctor Mikey Biddlestone.

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Speaker 4: All right.

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Speaker 1: This show is sponsored by Better Help.

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Speaker 2: of yourself, looking after your mental health. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: more could you do for yourself? I actually just signed up,

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Speaker 2: and as we all know, therapy is something that is

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Speaker 2: all kinds of cultic experiences.

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Speaker 5: And even those who have never been an occult.

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Speaker 1: at betterhelp dot com slash.

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Speaker 2: Trust that's better help h e LP dot com slash Trust.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Mikey Biddlestone to trust me.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about all things conspiracy

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Speaker 7: theories and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you for joining us. So for anyone

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Speaker 2: who doesn't know who you are, you are a post

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Speaker 2: doc researcher at the Cambridge Social Decision Making Lab. You

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Speaker 2: have your PhD. Now it's very exciting and your research

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Speaker 2: is focused on conspiracy beliefs, misinformation and political psychology. So

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Speaker 2: first of all, can you just tell us what made

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Speaker 2: you become interested in this topic.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 7: I've always been interested in kind of quirkial, weird things.

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Speaker 7: I guess that I'm not really People will tell you

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Speaker 7: that they have about the world and it surprises you, you know.

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Speaker 7: That's the kind of stuff I've always been interested in.

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Speaker 7: But also one of my friends kind of I guess

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Speaker 7: you could say, went down the rabbit hole when I

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Speaker 7: wanted to, I don't know, understand it a bit better. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: to just understand the kind of maybe friendship dynamic that

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Speaker 7: goes into that and the ways in which maybe people

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Speaker 7: can be brought out of it. And then I've found

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Speaker 7: that it may be much more difficult than I assumed

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Speaker 7: in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Well, wait, now I want to hear about the friend Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I want.

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Speaker 5: To hear about the rabbit hole too. What's the rabbit hole?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean I think initially it was I guess

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Speaker 7: I've heard the term conspiratuality before, so I think it

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Speaker 7: was influenced by, you know, the kind of feelings of

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Speaker 7: yeah there, maybe you could call it awakening is how

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Speaker 7: they would see it too, kind of yeah, spiritual beliefs

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Speaker 7: and things like that.

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Speaker 4: And then I think he got.

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Speaker 7: Into sort of circles and maybe social things online that

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Speaker 7: there was kind of a crossover with this this spirituality

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Speaker 7: stuff and belief in conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 4: And I think it started out with a.

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Speaker 7: Kind of obsession maybe your interest, I should say, with

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Speaker 7: David ike And then I think maybe that was like

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Speaker 7: the gateway too.

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Speaker 4: I don't know everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is that you go ahead, Mikey will tell you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I guess what people can refer to him as like

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Speaker 7: a conspiracy entrepreneur, So whether you believe that he thinks

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Speaker 7: what he says is true or not. Basically he spreads

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Speaker 7: the stuff about reptilian overlords and the New World Order

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Speaker 7: and stuff, which is always you know, dog whistles about

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Speaker 7: anti Semitism and things like that. But yeah, he's kind

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Speaker 7: of the I don't know. I need a better term,

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Speaker 7: but yeah, conspiracy daddy.

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Speaker 4: I guess at the.

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Speaker 5: Sounds too sexy. Yeah that's our producer just said he

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Speaker 5: used to play soccer.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, yeah, he was a football player. And then

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Speaker 7: I don't know, yeah, maybe I guess there's a bit

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Speaker 7: of maybe potential mental illness there. I'm not sure, but

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Speaker 7: he did claim that he was the son of God

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Speaker 7: or something.

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Speaker 5: It's like Moses Stormers.

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Speaker 1: Second guest, remember his uncle what became a cult leader

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Speaker 1: after he was a football player who got a concussion.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I forgot I completely forgot it.

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Speaker 5: And he was like, yeah, I'm talking to God now,

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Speaker 5: and everybody's like, I think interesting.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't believe it.

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Speaker 7: I don't know, but yeah, because I'm always, you know,

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Speaker 7: skeptical of whether they're doing it on purpose to make money.

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Speaker 4: But with him, it seems like, yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: went off the rail.

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Speaker 1: It's so fascinating. I know, I'm always like how much

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Speaker 1: is a lie? And how much do you believe? It's weird?

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Speaker 2: It's always the question did that person ever kind of

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Speaker 2: emerge from the rabbit hole or not so much?

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Speaker 7: To be honest, I don't speak to them that much anymore.

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Speaker 7: It was a bit of a strain on our friendship

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Speaker 7: and became we couldn't really talk about much else, you know,

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Speaker 7: so we sort of decided to, yeah, not really hang

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Speaker 7: out as much anymore. So I assume that they are

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Speaker 7: still in the rabbit hole from various things I've seen

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Speaker 7: online and that kind of thing with the social media

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Speaker 7: that I see every now and again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right, fortunately, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 7: Think COVID was a bit of a nail in the coffin.

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Speaker 7: It kind of yeah, sent them further.

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Speaker 4: Maybe.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, tell us, like, are there any

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Speaker 2: particular personality traits that might make a person more susceptible

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Speaker 2: to believing in conspiracy theories?

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Speaker 7: So when you say personality traits, I guess what we

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Speaker 7: would kind of refer to in psychology is like this

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Speaker 7: sort of stable personality factors that it might have heard about,

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Speaker 7: being things like conscientiousness, openness to experience, things like neuroticism.

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Speaker 7: There are these kind of like very stable personality traits

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Speaker 7: that we talk about those don't seem to be related

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Speaker 7: to conspiracy beliefs at all. But that being said, like

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Speaker 7: it's kind of maybe a little bit pedantic for me

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Speaker 7: to say that because we just don't tend to refer

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Speaker 7: to them as personality characteristics. It's more like motivations.

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Speaker 4: I guess.

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Speaker 7: So if I have a strong motivation to maybe play

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Speaker 7: down or exaggerate certain threats, and this can be things

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Speaker 7: like maybe my attachment styles, if I feel insecure about

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Speaker 7: my relationships, things like this, that will tend to make

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Speaker 7: people more susceptible to conspiracy narratives. And the idea here

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Speaker 7: is that basically conspiracy narratives and conspiracy theories are a

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Speaker 7: way of kind of dealing with or understanding threats from

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Speaker 7: the world around us. Right, so, if you have a

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Speaker 7: global threat like the pandemic or climate change, it's kind

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Speaker 7: of this big, constantly causing a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of worry in your mind.

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Speaker 7: So you want to understand this in order to maybe

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Speaker 7: have control over your life, and that can lead to

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Speaker 7: maybe preference for I guess, certainty of accuracy. So you

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Speaker 7: tend to see the world as like I need an answer.

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Speaker 7: You find the first answer and you go, yep, that's

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Speaker 7: the one that's a neat package. I've got the answer.

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Speaker 7: Now you feel like you can manage your expectations. And

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Speaker 7: then finally there's this kind of social element to them

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Speaker 7: as well, where say I'm a member of a certain

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Speaker 7: group or you know, an identity or something that will

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Speaker 7: tend to flavor what types of conspiracy theories I may

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Speaker 7: be willing to believe or not. So if it's an outgroup,

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Speaker 7: that's what tends to be. The people that we scapegoat,

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Speaker 7: right for certain, being responsible for certain events in the

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Speaker 7: world that we suspect have some person pulling the strings

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Speaker 7: behind it. And that seems to be a potential reason

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Speaker 7: why there's a lot of anti Semitism in conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 7: because I think this these notions of anti Semitism are

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Speaker 7: very historically entrenched. Unfortunately, you know, they've been repeated over

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Speaker 7: time a lot, and there's been a lot of concerted

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Speaker 7: efforts to kind of vilified Jewish people as well. So

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Speaker 7: they've been sort of yeah, like entrenched in a lot

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Speaker 7: of culture.

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Speaker 2: And as we know from our last episode, the more

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Speaker 2: information is or information in quotations is repeated, the more

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Speaker 2: true it feels to the person kind of hearing it.

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Speaker 2: So if someone has heard their entire lives that Jewish

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Speaker 2: people are whatever, you know, this thing, and that they're

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Speaker 2: more likely potentially than to respond to the anti Semitic

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 7: Yes, exactly, kind of yeah, so that's stuff about the

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Speaker 7: the repeated thing, I guess is the he could say

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Speaker 7: about the specific misinformation that someone's believing. But there's also

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Speaker 7: the social identity side, which is kind of true that

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Speaker 7: you know it would be repeated, but there's also stuff

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Speaker 7: about you know, your your self image and your collective

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Speaker 7: group image that what you're trying to do is defend

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Speaker 7: any wrongdoing maybe that your group may be responsible for,

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Speaker 7: or just blame other groups so that your group doesn't

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Speaker 7: have any responsibility in the mix. So it kind of

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Speaker 7: puts yourself and your group in a kind of morally

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Speaker 7: superior victim role. Whether you are a victim or not

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Speaker 7: is not the point, but it's more about, you know,

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Speaker 7: the conspiracy theory says everyone's out to get me, it's

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Speaker 7: all your fault's or your fault, and that can be

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Speaker 7: very much more of a self image and collective image

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Speaker 7: as opposed to this kind of repeated information that's repeated.

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Speaker 4: To your life.

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Speaker 2: Sorry you're saying kind of like, can you just like

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Speaker 2: find a way to describe it for like, for a.

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Speaker 7: People, people have objective and subjective feelings of like negative

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Speaker 7: circumstances right of their group. So if you feel like

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Speaker 7: your group is targeted or disadvantaged, because it might actually

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Speaker 7: be disadvantaged. But the point is, if you feel disadvantage,

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Speaker 7: you want to make sense of why that is, and

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Speaker 7: you want to know who's responsible in order to feel

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Speaker 7: less disadvantaged or deprived or something. So a lot of

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Speaker 7: this is about feelings of unfairness and moral unfairness and

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Speaker 7: that your group is victimized essentially. Yeah right, Okay, hard

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Speaker 7: to paraphrase, I agree, but yeah, it's kind of what

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Speaker 7: I'm going at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But so, yeah, so it's less about like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: personality type does this thing, and it's more about like,

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Speaker 2: if people are repeatedly feeling well maybe potentially like in

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Speaker 2: a state of fear or uncertainty anxiety, if they feel

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Speaker 2: like ostracized from society, regardless of how much other people

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Speaker 2: might agree with whether those things are actually happening, If

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Speaker 2: those feelings are the things that can kind of makes

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Speaker 2: more susceptible to conspiratorial thinking exactly.

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Speaker 4: That's that's how I describe it.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, these external threats, Yeah, and you're trying to understand

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Speaker 7: them essentially. Yeah, there's kind of ways that you can

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Speaker 7: feel less like you want to compensate for those feelings. Right, So,

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Speaker 7: you know everyone goes through feelings of anxiety and stuff.

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Speaker 7: But if you know how to manage those anxieties in

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Speaker 7: a more maybe constructive way as opposed to turning to

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Speaker 7: something which is kind of an easy answer, then that

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Speaker 7: can tend to push you in a different direction, I suppose, right.

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Speaker 1: And that kind of goes back to the attachment thing

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Speaker 1: that you were saying a little bit exactly.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, right, Okay, Yeah, if you have secure attachment, maybe

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Speaker 7: you can manage those relationships in a more constructive way.

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Speaker 2: Or is the answer to every Well for our listeners

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Speaker 2: who aren't familiar with attachment theory, can you just tell

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Speaker 2: us what that means?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Sure, so yeah, just I'd say first off that I'm

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Speaker 7: not really an expert on attachment theory, but basically the

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Speaker 7: idea is that, yeah, your upbringing can change the way

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Speaker 7: that you expect people to act in personal relationships as

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Speaker 7: you become an adult. So there's ways that you can

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Speaker 7: feel secure, which is that you feel like when you're

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Speaker 7: with someone that if they go away from you, you

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Speaker 7: don't feel insecure and you wonder constantly.

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Speaker 4: Where they are.

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Speaker 7: If you're anxiously attached, if they move away from you,

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Speaker 7: you're worried about what they're doing.

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Speaker 4: You feel insecure and you need to check on that.

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Speaker 7: And if you're avoidantly attached, then you tend to not

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Speaker 7: be so worried about what people are doing around you

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Speaker 7: to the point where you basically kind of avoid any

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Speaker 7: sort of feelings of threats or you're kind of defensive

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Speaker 7: in a way. Right again, non experts, it's hard to.

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Speaker 2: Apply the stereotype of the fuck boy would be the

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Speaker 2: idea of an avoidant person, and the stereotype of women

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Speaker 2: they're so all incredibly you know. So all that is

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Speaker 2: to say that, like, if we are relating to the

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Speaker 2: world from a place of just not security and not confidence,

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Speaker 2: like that is the thing that can kind of make

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Speaker 2: us look to other external you know, guidance or answers

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Speaker 2: or certainty.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, basically yeah, for that certainty. And to blame a

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Speaker 7: group for being responsible the bit without the group, I

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Speaker 7: guess I should say there's this kind of idea that

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Speaker 7: maybe that's where it's feelings of spirituality, right, Sometimes feelings

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Speaker 7: of spirituality can be a way of dealing with worries

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Speaker 7: about death, you know, that kind of thing. But you're

400
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Speaker 7: not necessarily blaming a group for everything. So when the

401
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Speaker 7: conspiracy theories come in is when yeah, you're scapegoating a certain.

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Speaker 4: Group as well.

403
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Speaker 5: Well, you can see with the existential stuff.

404
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Speaker 1: I mean, we're humans just put on a planet with

405
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Speaker 1: no answers whatsoever, and it's like, just have some fun,

406
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Speaker 1: Like we have to find everybody finds a story, whether

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Speaker 1: it's atheism, like whatever. We find something that we're like cool,

408
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Speaker 1: got it. That's my lane a little bit, right, So

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Speaker 1: we all need some sort of answer, right, I think.

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Speaker 7: So, yeah, I think that is natural, I suppose. But

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Speaker 7: at the same time, you know, there's there's finding an

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Speaker 7: answer and then there's dealing with the shortcomings of an answer. Right,

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Speaker 7: So maybe I can feel like I have an answer

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Speaker 7: but also be aware that I could be wrong. That's

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Speaker 7: kind of the because conspiracy theories are so there's so

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Speaker 7: much conviction in them.

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Speaker 4: I suppose it's the difference.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel like I have answers, but I feel

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Speaker 2: like I have enough tools in my life and enough

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Speaker 2: people around me and enough education to kind of act.

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Speaker 2: It's like part of my identity to not want to

422
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Speaker 2: oversimplify the world. So like, for me, I'm not someone

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Speaker 2: who's probably going to go into that territory because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I view myself as somebody who's very rational and nuanced,

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Speaker 2: you know, So that's like part of my part of

426
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Speaker 2: my story is that thing. But if you could have

427
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Speaker 2: all these exact same characteristics and maybe not have that

428
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Speaker 2: part of your identity and go and totally the opposite, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, it would just be it would be like your

430
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Speaker 1: personality traits, but it's not how you center your identity.

431
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Speaker 2: I deal with a great deal of uncertainty, as you know,

432
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Speaker 2: because the whole thing with OCD is is learning to

433
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Speaker 2: live with uncertainty makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like it,

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Speaker 2: but I've like because of these other mitigating factors and

435
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Speaker 2: like my own belief system and my own values, I

436
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Speaker 2: don't feel the need to like fill that uncertainty with

437
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Speaker 2: something that you know, with someone else giving me answers rasically, Yeah,

438
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Speaker 2: that's great.

439
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Speaker 7: That sounds constructive to avoid conspiracy theories as well as

440
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Speaker 7: a different response.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I can relate to that as well.

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Speaker 7: I kind of prefer I don't know, dear, it's kind

443
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Speaker 7: of fun to me that everything is chaotic, you know,

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Speaker 7: there is no order, and it's kind of interesting, you

445
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 7: know that that things will be unpredictable, And I definitely, yeah,

446
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 7: I feel like I identify with that sort of feeling

447
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 7: and preference. I mean, I love Coen Brothers movies, for example,

448
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,679
Speaker 7: and I feel like that really like centers that you

449
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 7: know and appeals to me because there's no there's no result,

450
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 7: you know, it's kind of whatever you think is true

451
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 7: and that kind of thing.

452
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Oh, I really want to reference White Loadus

453
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 2: last night, but I won't.

454
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 4: Okay, been watching that as well.

455
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 2: Actually it's so good. So what value are conspiracy theories

456
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 2: providing for the people who believe in them?

457
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 7: So I think that the way that we tend to

458
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 7: suggest is that it's kind of it's appealing to believe

459
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 7: in a conspiracy theory, but it doesn't ever satisfy the

460
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 7: hunger that it's that it's supposed to write. So I

461
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 7: may feel like I'm going to get an answer by

462
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 7: endorsing this conspiracy theory. I may feel like I'm going

463
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 7: to challenge the power structures that are, you know, putting

464
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 7: me in a difficult position. But the truth is a

465
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 7: lot of the time, it tends to, for example, deflect

466
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 7: from structural issues and just blame a specific group as

467
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 7: responsible for something, So in that way, you're not really

468
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 7: changing a lot of structures. Also, it makes you feel

469
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 7: like you have less control over your world because maybe

470
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 7: you believe there's a small group of people who are

471
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 7: responsible for determining all of your life decisions or the

472
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,239
Speaker 7: way that your life is. Whether you believe you can

473
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 7: do something about that or not.

474
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 4: As different.

475
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 7: But the point is that you're endorsing this idea or

476
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 7: this philosophy that you have no control over your life.

477
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 7: There's this dangerous worldview we tend to refer to it

478
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 7: as and that's not good for our psychology, you know.

479
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 7: So essentially, the way we describe that is that those

480
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 7: frustrated feelings I mentioned earlier about threat and worries and

481
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 7: certainty will lead you to believe a conspiracy theory and

482
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 7: that in turn may exacerbate those feelings of threat and

483
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,880
Speaker 7: worry and certainty. So it creates this cycle, this psychological

484
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 7: cycle of endorsing conspiracy theories, and that maybe we don't

485
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 7: know yet, but that maybe what contributes to this idea

486
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 7: that we always refer to as going down the rabbit hole. Right,

487
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 7: is this kind of cycle that tends to spiral.

488
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 2: I suppose, Oh, that's interesting, but isn't part of what

489
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 2: they provide the feeling of certainty in an uncertain world?

490
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 7: I suppose short term, Yes, I think you're right. And

491
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 7: also there's evidence that, you know, people who endorse conspiracy

492
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 7: theories do feel unique, and that's often a thing that

493
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 7: they're trying to do as well as to show that

494
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 7: they had this kind of they hold the secret answer

495
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 7: to everything and things like that. So for sure, there's

496
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 7: this kind of positive element to it, but in terms

497
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 7: of like this long term psychological benefit, there's not really

498
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 7: yet a lot of It's yeah, so that the appeal

499
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 7: is like a short term appeal essentially. Right.

500
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 2: I was on a Reddit thread for like former QAnon people.

501
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 4: Or acute casualties or something Yes.

502
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 2: Yes, and so I was just going through some of

503
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: the stories and it was really interesting because a lot

504
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 2: of the people were like, I was just in a

505
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: constant state of fear. I was constantly aroused, I was

506
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: constantly agitated, and it was like just totally taking a

507
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 2: toll on my mental health and disrupting my relationships. It

508
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: might provide these short term benefits, like you're saying, but ultimately,

509
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 2: like people end up kind of just frazzled and worn down.

510
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 5: Well, it's like an addiction. It's an addiction.

511
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: You get your hit of your sugar and you feel

512
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: better for twenty seconds, and then you need more because

513
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: it goes away.

514
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 4: So true, It's a really good way to put it.

515
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 7: There's a paper I think where they use the term

516
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 7: like addicted to answers, which is that.

517
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 4: Kind of thing, right?

518
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 2: I love that phrase. Wow, I've never heard that.

519
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 4: I love it. Use it.

520
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 2: I also want to speak to the point you were

521
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: saying about how like it's not like you're actually they're

522
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: actually going to be addressing like structural issues with the

523
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 2: things that they claim to be caring about, like for example,

524
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: with this way and I really want to do an

525
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 2: episode on this, but with the Wayfair conspiracy theory that

526
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: happened a couple of years ago. Were you did Were

527
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: you aware of this, Mikey.

528
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,479
Speaker 4: No, I haven't heard of this one though.

529
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: You know the furniture company Wayfair dot com?

530
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 5: Yes, uh so you don't remember the thousand dollars?

531
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So, first of all, basically all of the kids

532
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 2: that were allegedly missing were just like at their friend's

533
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: house or like they were found like within a day,

534
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 2: But the reverberations of the conspiracy theory went on for

535
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 2: weeks and months. People's lives were kind of destroyed, and

536
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: also importantly, human trafficking hotlines were completely clogged up, and

537
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: as a result, actual human trafficking victims were unable to

538
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 2: get resources because there were thousands of people calling and

539
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: being like wayfair, way for you know, just a fucking

540
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: bullshit conspiracy theory, sorry that there was no evidence for

541
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: it disrupted the actual process of helping human trafficking victims,

542
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 2: which generally speaking, is a lot more straightforward than like

543
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: this complex whatever that meme is. You know what I'm

544
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: talking about with all the maps around Charlie yea yeah, yeah, yeah.

545
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: So it's like, if you actually care about the issue

546
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 2: you're talking about, then like, do something take some kind

547
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: of action to help it, other than just like pointing

548
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: to Balenciaga or Wayfair or whatever it is and talking

549
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: about it on the internet.

550
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

551
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 7: I mean, I think those feelings of powerlessness maybe contributed

552
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 7: to that, right, which is like they don't really know

553
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 7: what they're supposed to do to solve these issues because

554
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 7: there's such huge issues you know, child exploitation, blah blah blah,

555
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 7: the things that most humans actually care about, you know, Yeah,

556
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 7: but they don't know how to change those things. So

557
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 7: this again, this short term answer is the way, but

558
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 7: doesn't seem to do anything.

559
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's really frustrating.

560
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 7: Again, like you said, that kind of backfire as well

561
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 7: of all of the hotlines being completely overwhelmed and stuff.

562
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 7: It's I think I've heard examples of that before with

563
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 7: the QAnon stuff. It's like such a counterintuitive thing for them,

564
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 7: but they're actually making things worse by you know, really

565
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 7: flooding these things.

566
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 4: And I don't know that it was the.

567
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 7: Same with the Pizzagate conspiracy as well, where you know,

568
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 7: the person went in with a gun into the restaurant,

569
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 7: and it's just all it does is just create yeah,

570
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 7: danger and fear, and they feel kind of justified in

571
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 7: making other people feel anxious and scared, and yeah, it's

572
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 7: obviously not justified.

573
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Scam Fluencers is a podcast from Wondery that tells

574
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: the unbelievable true stories behind some of the world's most

575
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Speaker 2: infamous scams, swindlers, and con artists.

576
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577
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Speaker 1: who gained prominence in twenty fifteen when his pharmaceutical company

578
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Speaker 1: raised the price of a life saving drug by five

579
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580
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581
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582
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583
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Speaker 1: the iceberg and he had even deeper secrets he was hiding.

584
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: Charges were filed, but the arrogant Screlly wouldn't go down

585
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Speaker 2: without a fight.

586
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587
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588
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: It's important to educate ourselves on the different ways that

589
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590
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Speaker 2: to protect ourselves. Yeah, and also it's juicy follow scamfluencers

591
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Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, so you can listen ad

592
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Speaker 2: free on the Amazon Music or Wndery app. When conspiracy

593
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: theorists believe you've done some research on this that they

594
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: are being discriminated against, does that increase their attachment to

595
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: their belief system and identity.

596
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly so.

597
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, we did the study where basically what we did

598
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 7: in different ways was we kind of triggered these feelings

599
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 7: of rejection and discrimination from what we found was political

600
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 7: figures that seemed to be the important ones. So if

601
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 7: they felt like their ideas were being censored or the

602
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 7: conspiracy theory believers were being excluded from society, all that

603
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 7: did was kind of make them double down on this

604
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 7: idea that they are part of a conspiracy community. What

605
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 7: we think this kind of suggests is that a lot

606
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 7: of this conspiracy identity you could refer to as I guess,

607
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 7: is in it's defined by like an opposition to the

608
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 7: mainstream maybe or to the kind of the shutting down

609
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 7: of ideas a lot of the time. Ironically, Also, what

610
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 7: we see though, is that if someone tries to argue

611
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 7: with them or debunk one of their ideas, they will

612
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 7: immediately shut that down, you know. So I guess again

613
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 7: it's this kind of conflicting or counterintuitive approach to everything.

614
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 7: But yeah, we thought that was an interesting view that

615
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 7: maybe suggests that, you know, shutting down YouTube accounts or

616
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 7: Facebook accounts or Twitter accounts, that spreading conspiracy theories is

617
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 7: probably not an effective strategy at least to make people

618
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 7: feel less of a conspiracy theorist, even though it may

619
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 7: reduce the amount that people interact with these ideas.

620
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 3: It was kind of the approach here interesting.

621
00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 2: So, so like, what's our takeaway from less baby just

622
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: let them spread? We don't want people to be exposed

623
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: to the misinformation, but we also can't, like what you're

624
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: saying makes sense. Also, we can't like make conspiracy theorists

625
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: feel more like they're being conspired against.

626
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 7: So how do you can handle So I think it's complicated, right,

627
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 7: So I guess the point is that we need to

628
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 7: also up at the alternatives.

629
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 4: So there are alternatives as well.

630
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 7: So I think the point is that we're not saying,

631
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 7: you know, don't limit people's access to these you know,

632
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 7: kind of dangerous ideas and that kind of stuff. But

633
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 7: the point is, I think I think this kind of

634
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 7: like widespread approach where you do this kind of like

635
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 7: mass shutting down of certain accounts and that kind of thing.

636
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 7: Often what that will do is just push those ideas underground. Right,

637
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 7: So I think if you do it in a sort

638
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 7: of it's it's kind of endless and it's like a

639
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 7: whack a mole approach to it. But if you're shutting

640
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 7: down small accounts and every now and again, you know,

641
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 7: reducing people's access to this certain information that can be

642
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 7: slightly effective is what the information shows that the datas

643
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 7: I should say, But an alternative, I guess is kind

644
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 7: of what we tend to call pre bunking. So instead

645
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 7: of debunking where they've seen the idea and you tell

646
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 7: them why it's not true, you actually prepare people for

647
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 7: how someone might manipulate their opinion.

648
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 4: Or their beliefs in the first place.

649
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 7: Right, So you tell them at the beginning, you tell

650
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 7: that it's called a innoculation, psychological inoculation, and it's like

651
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 7: a vaccine, right, So you tell them you trigger their

652
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 7: immune system, their psychological immune system. You tell them someone

653
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 7: might try to manipulate your opinion, and then you kind

654
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 7: of introduce the small dose of this us by saying

655
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 7: the strategy that they may use is to spread a

656
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 7: conspiracy theory about a certain group, skateegot a certain group,

657
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 7: or use polarization in order to make you believe a

658
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 7: certain thing that benefits them to the detriment of everyone else.

659
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 7: And then you give them kind of what we call

660
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 7: an attack, which is the actual expose them.

661
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 4: To the dose like a conspiracy theory.

662
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 7: And what we find is that they're resistant to these

663
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 7: strategies because they're aware of someone trying to manipulate them

664
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 7: in the future. So that approach is kind of like

665
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 7: an educational approach, right, as opposed to this sort of

666
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 7: top down tech company approach, which is just basically constant

667
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 7: and unlimited and ongoing.

668
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, I guess that's sort of what Lisafazia

669
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: was about as well to.

670
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: Kind of Oh, okay, you had at least Fazio and yeah, yeah.

671
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you guys all friends. Do you guys just

672
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: saw talk about conspiracy here.

673
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 7: Was a very small circle conferences together and stuff, and.

674
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. She kind of mentioned this idea of like

675
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: doing it in the beginning as opposed to trying to

676
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: amend people's beliefs after the fact.

677
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 7: Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, yah, I mean

678
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 7: it's just a version of how you can educate people.

679
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 7: There's many ways.

680
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, is there a conspiracy that you can see like, ooh,

681
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: this is probably gonna gonna come from from what I'm

682
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: seeing right now in the world, that's like right in culture.

683
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 4: That's a good question. Actually, no, it's hard to say.

684
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 7: I think I can say that, you know, there are

685
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 7: ones that that do come up. So you know, whenever

686
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 7: there's a global crisis, you can expect that there's going

687
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 7: to be conspiracy theories about this, right so as soon

688
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 7: as we saw the Ukraine crisis or the situation the revolution.

689
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: Happening in Iran right now as well.

690
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 7: You know, there's lots of ideas that spread online and

691
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 7: sometimes that can actually be you know, disinformation on purpose

692
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 7: by the people who are I don't know involved in

693
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 7: this to win the media war. I suppose it's how

694
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 7: you would describe that. But basically, what yeah, we can

695
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 7: see coming up probably is blaming the groups that you

696
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 7: know are their enemy of course, and anti Semitism every time.

697
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 7: But also I don't know how much this is really

698
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 7: spoken about, to be honest, in the literature, I don't

699
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 7: see a lot. But for some reason, pedophilia comes up

700
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 7: all the time, and like you're saying about the child exploitation,

701
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 7: I think it's something to do with basically, most people

702
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 7: in the world care about, you know, the welfare of

703
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 7: children and stuff. It's a very human thing. So maybe

704
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 7: that's why it's one that comes up so much. Is

705
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 7: this kind of people care a lot about it, you know,

706
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 7: and it triggers a worry in their head or protective element.

707
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't help that our world is so

708
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: fucked up and that like multiple presidents were on Jeffrey

709
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: Epstein's jet and like all of these things.

710
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 5: It doesn't hurt that these things happen and.

711
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: That it doesn't help them.

712
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it doesn't help. It doesn't help.

713
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: It's hard to figure out which word as well, do

714
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying?

715
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 7: No, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what. Yeah, yeah, especially

716
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 7: in the UK. I mean I know it's also happened

717
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 7: in the US, like you mention Jeffrey Epstein, But in

718
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 7: the UK we have all of these public figures that

719
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 7: come out and turn out to be, you know, having

720
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 7: been prolific pedophiles for like you know, thirty fourteen years

721
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 7: and super high profile you know, so well that does

722
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 7: is stick in your mind, is like, well, that person

723
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 7: got away with it, you know, they died when it

724
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 7: all came out, and they were kind of protected.

725
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 4: By these institutions. So it's real.

726
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 7: You know, it does happen, But the point is that's

727
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 7: not happening everywhere. And conspiracy, the conspiracy mentality means that

728
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 7: you kind of just apply the same logic to every situation.

729
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 7: When that might be true in some places, it's not

730
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 7: true everywhere of course, So it's complex exactly.

731
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, it's is It is a really hard

732
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: thing to navigate. I mean we've talked about this before,

733
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: we talked about this last week, but like when there

734
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: are actual you know, there are actual people in Hollywood

735
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: hushing things up. There are actual politicians trying to save

736
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: their cover their asses, there are actual media figures who

737
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: are like trying to propagate a specific idea. Like, it's

738
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: so hard to navigate what's real and what isn't And yeah,

739
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 2: it just really makes.

740
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 5: You want to hit your head against a table.

741
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: When I hear something that sounds really like sensational or

742
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: like really dramatic or crazy like that is almost the

743
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: thing that sets off my red flag where I'm like,

744
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: is this real? Yeah, but it's like too fun or

745
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: easy exactly interesting. Yeah, if it's too fun, it's a

746
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: red flag for me.

747
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, you've actually hit the nail on the

748
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 7: head in regards to like recent research. So what they

749
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 7: found was the more entertaining a conspiracy theory was perceived

750
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 7: as the more believable it was. So the idea here

751
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 7: is that basically they're like movie narratives, you know, they're

752
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 7: kind of either genres or storylines that we kind of

753
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 7: endorse them. We have preferences for those, you know, and

754
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 7: if if it clicks with our preferences or some genre

755
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 7: that we're interested in terms of our worldview, then we're

756
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 7: going to believe it, you know, are likely to believe.

757
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 5: So we all believe at least one.

758
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 7: Then it seems like a lot of the evidence seems

759
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 7: to suggest most people hold, like at least a suspicion

760
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 7: that one is true.

761
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 4: You know.

762
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 7: That's not to say that I strongly agree that this

763
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 7: is definitely true, you know, but most of us have

764
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 7: a suspicion, yeah, about one. And again, the issue is

765
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 7: when you're just applying the same logic to everything, and

766
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 7: what they find is that the difference between belief in

767
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 7: a specific conspiracy theory works in a very different way

768
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 7: to conspiracy mentality, in a way that with a conspiracy mentality,

769
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 7: it's that you know, you endorse many conspiracy narratives often conflicting, right,

770
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 7: So there's research that shows that some people believe that

771
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 7: bin Laden was dead and also that is still alive.

772
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 7: You know that kind of thing to endorse both theories

773
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 7: or the Princess Diana is still alive and in hiding

774
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 7: but also was murdered by the royal family.

775
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: You know.

776
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: So wow, obviously both can't be true.

777
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 7: And what they'll say is that they won't say that

778
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 7: they're certain about both. But the point is that you

779
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 7: have this suspicion about the world, which means all of

780
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 7: these things could be true, that they're appealing.

781
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: To you and have you. I mean, if someone is

782
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,239
Speaker 2: kind of stuck in this suspicious mentality, I mean, is

783
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: there a way on like a micro scale, like in

784
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: their life or also on a societal scale to kind

785
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: of help heal that.

786
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 7: So there's a lot of strategies at the moment, the

787
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 7: main one being that I mentioned was psychological inoculation. But

788
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 7: with regards to like actual kind of individual basis stuff,

789
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 7: what we tend to suggest and we're doing research on

790
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 7: there's some evidence that it works, right, is to essentially

791
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 7: satisfy those needs that would make them vulnerable in.

792
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 4: The first place to conspiracy theories.

793
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 7: Right, So a big one that does seem to work

794
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 7: is that we make people feel in control of their lives,

795
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 7: and you can do that in many different ways, right,

796
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 7: but the point being that, Yeah, if I tell someone

797
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 7: that you do have power to change your socio political

798
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 7: reality around you, you do have the ability and the efficacy

799
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 7: to actually have control over your life, they'll be much

800
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 7: less likely to endorse a conspiracy theory because they feel like,

801
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 7: actually there's more alternatives, you know, as ideas, or you know,

802
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 7: I'm not at the whim of any kind of just

803
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 7: powerful group.

804
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 4: You know, I actually have efficacy over my life.

805
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 7: Another way is kind of bolstering people's sense of self

806
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 7: worth as well. There seems to be one is we

807
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 7: call self affirmation, and it kind of just reminds someone

808
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 7: of their kind of positive moral beliefs and things like

809
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 7: this and what makes them good essentially, And I think

810
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 7: what that does tends to kind of make people not

811
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 7: see not feel vulnerable in the world, right, and not

812
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 7: see the world as this dangerous place again, so they're

813
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 7: less likely to just see everything it's a conspiracy. So

814
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 7: those approaches are the kind of yeat those individual yeah,

815
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 7: feeling or existential kind of interventions.

816
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there a link between like financial instability like

817
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: within society and the rise of conspiracy theories?

818
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 7: There is, But there are parameters to that, so it

819
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 7: depends on the nation. I think was a paper I

820
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 7: saw that was really interesting where they were saying that

821
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 7: economic vulnerability led to belief in anti Semitic conspiracy theories

822
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 7: in Russia, I think, but they're not in Poland.

823
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 4: I think it was potentially the other way around.

824
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 7: But anyway, the point that they were making was that

825
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 7: there's a context there which is maybe how entrenched the

826
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 7: idea is about anti Semitism or this type of conspiracy theory.

827
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 7: But the answer is yes, Yeah, basically, economic vulnerability it

828
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 7: makes you feel vunerable, makes you feel existentially threatened, worried

829
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 7: about your life, you know, that kind of stuff, so

830
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 7: you're more likely to yeah, look for reasons for that.

831
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

832
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: Interesting, I wonder how people in Poland dealt with their

833
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: economic instability.

834
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, there's probably other other negatives

835
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 7: that come out of it as well. I'm sure you know, like, yeah,

836
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 7: I just focus a lot on conspiracy theories so everything.

837
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's interesting. I do wonder that as well.

838
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are some characteristics that make out groups especially

839
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 2: likely to be accused of conspiring against the in group?

840
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 7: So basically what it tends to be is. Let me

841
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 7: just get this right, they're perceived as cold and calculated essentially,

842
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 7: and that sounds obvious, but there's been a lot of

843
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 7: stuff on whether what dimensions of those we look at.

844
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 7: So basically what we call those is conspiracy stereotypes, right,

845
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 7: And conspiracy stereotypes tend to be that they see that

846
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 7: the group as cold, calculated and having high sociopolitical or

847
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 7: socioeconomic agency as well. So whether that's true or not,

848
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 7: again is not necessarily the case. There's a subjective perception

849
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 7: that a group is powerful with economic agency and that

850
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 7: they are cold or calculated essentially, But otherwise, I mean,

851
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 7: it's basically just culturally entrenched norms about which groups are

852
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 7: you know, foreign governments for example, or in group and

853
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 7: out group. So really it's more you know where you're from,

854
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 7: what your background is. That kind of stuff will define

855
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 7: what out groups are important to you and which ones

856
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 7: you're seeing is relevant to maybe be a threat in

857
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 7: your society or your life.

858
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: Right, So the culture you grew up in, if you

859
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: were always told your whole life that it's it's this

860
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: guy over here, it's those people over there that are

861
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: the problem, and that's maybe the one you're more likely

862
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: to have.

863
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 4: It seems to be that.

864
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

865
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, but but again, yeah, like I'm saying is that

866
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 7: the stereotype of the group has to be yet that

867
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 7: they're subjectively kind of yeah, have a lot of socioeconomic

868
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 7: agency and control over you, and that they're cold and.

869
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: Character powerful cold people. So aka, Hillary Clinton is the

870
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: prime target for conspiracy theories because she's always seen as

871
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: cold and calculating and very powerful and maybe and also

872
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: she's a politician, so you know.

873
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 5: And things.

874
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 6: So yeah, I know, it's like, yeah, there probably are

875
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 6: some things that are true about Hillary Clinton, there are

876
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 6: so many also that are not true, most likely aka

877
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 6: like pizza Gate exact.

878
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 4: With Bill Clinton as well.

879
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 7: It's really hard to tease apart those true and false

880
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 7: ones because he was on again the Jeffreystein.

881
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah he had problems.

882
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 5: Not a great man.

883
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

884
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's confusing, and it just it just always comes

885
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: back to this thing of like the world is nuanced

886
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: and complicated and there are no simple answers, and like

887
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: it's our job to just try to not try to

888
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: over simple simplify it by like to the detriment of

889
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: our own health and our society by turning into like

890
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 2: constant fear machines.

891
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: And I think I think you can, yeah, and you can,

892
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: you know, ask enough questions. Like I remember one of

893
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: my great uncles was talking about how like hell Clinton's

894
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: the Illuminati and she's controlling everything. And then I was like,

895
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: but then, how how was Trump elected? And then we

896
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: just kind of were like oh right, And and like.

897
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 5: I think if you talk like it's it's what we.

898
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: Keep coming back to of just talk to somebody without

899
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: being like you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, and like

900
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: sooner or later a question will come up that both

901
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: of you will be like, well, I don't know, and

902
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: maybe kindness and listening.

903
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I wanted to ask you about that, Mikey.

904
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: I mean that's something we talk about a lot here

905
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: in terms of former cult members or cult current cult members.

906
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: If someone is currently indoctrinated, the thing we hear over

907
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: and over again from experts and from people who got

908
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: out is that like connection with another person is really

909
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: the thing that's going to help more so than ostracizing

910
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: them or kind of yelling at them for their beliefs.

911
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: Is this something you have, like seen it all in

912
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: your research?

913
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 4: Yeah?

914
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 7: Absolutely, Yeah, so not my personal research, But yeah, there's

915
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 7: quite a lot of literature, and I guess you were

916
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 7: saying ostracism, right, and that social expl lusion and an

917
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 7: oostracism are big factors that tend to lead to conspiracy beliefs.

918
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 7: And it tends to be that maybe you're kind of

919
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 7: dealing with the stress and often maybe what you want

920
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 7: to do is kind of signal some factor that there's

921
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 7: an idea that we can all rally around. Right, So

922
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 7: if I believe a conspiracy theory, I can say, hey,

923
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 7: who else believes in a conspiracy theory?

924
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 4: I'm lonely? Can I enjoin your group?

925
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 7: That kind of thing, But really what tends to happen

926
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 7: is it's a very kind of I guess, isolated group,

927
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 7: or it can be quite a dangerous group sometimes that

928
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 7: I can talk about later maybe, But yeah, the point

929
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 7: is that if we make people feel socially included, that

930
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 7: can make them less vulnerable to endorsing conspiracy narratives. And

931
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 7: it's interesting because this is theoretical at the moment, but

932
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 7: it's kind of that obviously, not ridiculing them and making

933
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 7: them feel listened to. But the idea here is that

934
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 7: you know, it's unlikely that some random are on the

935
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 7: street is going to persuade someone not to you know,

936
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 7: it's not going to persuade someone to be able to

937
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 7: come out.

938
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 4: Of the rabbit hole.

939
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 7: What they have to do is talk to the people

940
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 7: that they care about, the people that they identify with

941
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 7: that are meaningful in their life, because they respect these

942
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 7: people's opinions right their worldview. And that's kind of the

943
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 7: real conflict for someone who's talking to the believer, because

944
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 7: you have to kind of be mindful of your own

945
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 7: mental health where you don't want to just have this

946
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 7: relationship or friendship where all you're doing is banging your

947
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 7: head against the wall and going over the same issues.

948
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 7: But if you can have the energy to actually listen

949
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 7: to this person talk through it, and again not in

950
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 7: a judgmental way as you kind of touched on, that

951
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 7: can be a really important factor into this kind of

952
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 7: slow realization that maybe not everything.

953
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 4: You think is true. As a conspiracy theorist, you know,

954
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 4: that's at least.

955
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 7: Bringing them a bit further out. But that being said,

956
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 7: you know, as it's really difficult to deradicalize someone, it's

957
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 7: also really difficult to you know, bring someone out of

958
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 7: a conspiracy theory mindset. So it's long term, and it's

959
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 7: it's it takes a lot of energy, but if you

960
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 7: have the motivation to do that, it's a really important

961
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 7: and helpful thing that you can do.

962
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: For sure.

963
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 5: Well, that's aportant point to make.

964
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: Like how you started this interview was, yeah, I had

965
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: a friend, they went down the rabbit hole, and now

966
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: that person's on my friend anymore. Like you're not required

967
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: to just talk somebody out of a conspiracy theory for.

968
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 5: The rest of your life.

969
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's exhausting, Yeah, yeahsting to looking to someone who

970
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: is in a constant state of fear or suspicion or anger,

971
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: and like, you know, especially to talk to them with

972
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: patients like that is an emotionally challenging task to take on.

973
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: And not everyone needs to do it, but like if

974
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: it's important to you to do it.

975
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, family member is important.

976
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 7: Yeah.

977
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also the greater point that I do think,

978
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: I do think something that happens a lot, particularly on

979
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: the left, is this sort of like shaming and pointing fingers.

980
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: Culturally recognizing that you might also have false information.

981
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeh, Conspiracy theory is bad. Conspiracy theor is bad, and

982
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: like an overall culture of that I imagine is not helping.

983
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 7: Also, no, for sure, I mean exactly what you said

984
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 7: earlier about the paper that we had out recently was

985
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 7: yet that if you do that, you're going to push

986
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 7: them more into these conspiracy groups essentially. So and yeah,

987
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 7: and like with my friend, you know, I was also

988
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 7: guilty of just we essentially we're just trying to one

989
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 7: up each other, you know, and that's not helpful scenario

990
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 7: to be So I was basically pushing an identity of

991
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 7: like anti conspiracy theory, you know, which is not constructive

992
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 7: at all to that situation. And then you know, on

993
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 7: top of that, I felt like I was trying But

994
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 7: at the same time, I don't think either of us

995
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 7: were genuinely trying to persuade the other person. We were

996
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 7: just trying to say, I agree with what I agree

997
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 7: with and this is.

998
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 4: Why I'm right, you know.

999
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 7: But that wasn't really conducive at all. So you know,

1000
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 7: it was more effective to just step away. Maybe hopefully

1001
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 7: he encounters someone else that's more patient than I am,

1002
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 7: you know, or I don't know, maybe I was less

1003
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 7: mature at the time as well, so maybe that was

1004
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 7: a fact.

1005
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like I know more now, So yeah.

1006
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, kindness is more effective basically generally.

1007
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 7: Speaking, definitely, Yeah, respecting kindness, Yeah yeah. Although having said that,

1008
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 7: I do often think about this thing where there was

1009
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 7: a paper where they used ridicule and it did reduce

1010
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 7: people's endorsement of conspiracy theories.

1011
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 4: But I always think.

1012
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 7: About that, and I think that what that was was

1013
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 7: people who didn't already believe conspiracy theories. So if you

1014
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 7: don't believe on and then someone ridicules it, then you're

1015
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 7: going to go actually there even.

1016
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: Less believable, so of inoculation.

1017
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 7: Basically essentially yea, as opposed to actually bringing someone out

1018
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 7: of this conspiracy mindset. I'm sure they were not responsive

1019
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 7: to that Atolia.

1020
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 2: That's super interesting. My boyfriend and I have this debate

1021
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: a lot because he spends a lot of time on

1022
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: YouTube and he, you know, we talk a lot about

1023
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: these sort of masculinity figures, the Jordan Peterson's, the Ben

1024
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: Shapiro's of the world, and his perspective is always like

1025
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: roast people and they will because he was one of

1026
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: the people who was like watching videos, He's like who's right,

1027
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 2: who's not, Who's like all these guys are interesting, which

1028
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: ones should I like listen to? And it was the

1029
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: videos of people making fun of, you know, the sort

1030
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: of more extreme worldviews that kind of brought him to

1031
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: the love the light side, I should say, and so like.

1032
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 2: And so we'll kind of argue about that a little bit. WHI.

1033
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 2: I'll be like, we need to be kind to people,

1034
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: and He'll be like, we should make fun of them though,

1035
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: But I guess we're both right, and it just depends

1036
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: on like where in the process you're kind of finding people.

1037
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 7: I think you're totally right. I mean, to be honest,

1038
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 7: I've been persuaded a lot, you know. I really like,

1039
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 7: you know, stand up comedy and that kind of thing,

1040
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 7: and I think there's an element of like philosophy and

1041
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 7: stand up comedy, isn't there That they're kind of a

1042
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 7: lot of them are expressing their ideas about the world,

1043
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 7: whether it's direct or not, And you know, I think

1044
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 7: that taps into how I maybe learn thing sometimes, you know.

1045
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 7: So I think, actually I'm similar to your boyfriend in

1046
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 7: the sense that it probably would be effective to ridicule

1047
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 7: ideas for me to not believe in them. But that

1048
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 7: being said, I don't think that should be the default,

1049
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 7: you know, because the possibility is that you really actually,

1050
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 7: you know, offend someone more and make them more entrenched

1051
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 7: in their beliefs against it, you know. So yeah, if

1052
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 7: you know that the person responds to human yeah fine,

1053
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 7: but yeah, maybe it's not a default that we should

1054
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 7: be going for.

1055
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is interesting watching people who already believe

1056
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: in it. I think men in particular. It's like, if

1057
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: they feel ridiculed, you can literally watch them in real time,

1058
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: double down.

1059
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 4: Defensive thing.

1060
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1061
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's take a quick turn here because

1062
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: I want to talk about your research on the connection

1063
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: between narcisis and conspiracy theory. OK's cool, Yeah, fun, So

1064
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: what is the connection?

1065
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 5: Tell us?

1066
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 4: So? Yeah, again, we're still kind of working this out.

1067
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 7: It's early days, but yeah, there's this this very consistent

1068
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 7: link between narcissism and conspiracy beliefs. And the idea here

1069
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 7: is that basically with when you feel vulnerable, when you're

1070
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 7: a narcissist, you lash out and you basically say how

1071
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 7: everyone else is responsible for maybe your own shortcomings. Right,

1072
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 7: So there's already this kind of social conspiratorial element to narcissism,

1073
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 7: which is that you can never be in the wrong right,

1074
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 7: when you're trying to defend yourself image, So we call

1075
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 7: that a kind of defensive self image response. And what

1076
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 7: you do is you endorse a conspiracy theory that defends

1077
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 7: your shortcomings and blames everyone else for the issues in

1078
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 7: the world. Right, there's also grandiose narcissism, and that's kind

1079
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 7: of less clear. But the point there is that maybe

1080
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 7: we think that's more linked to conspiracy beliefs because of

1081
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 7: it signals that you know more than everyone else, right,

1082
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 7: so you're unique, as I mentioned earlier, So maybe there's

1083
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 7: these different routes for these different types of narcissism that

1084
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 7: again we haven't really teased a part yet, but the

1085
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 7: idea is that, yeah, we do know that in general,

1086
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 7: narcissism is very much, yeah, strongly linked to conspiracy beliefs.

1087
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 4: And on that as well.

1088
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 7: I think because it's related to the image signaling like

1089
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 7: an image element. I'm not sure whether narcissists actually do

1090
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 7: believe in conspiracy theories or not. I think that's still

1091
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 7: up for debate, because it's more about them signaling to

1092
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 7: everyone else that they know information, right, as opposed to

1093
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 7: actually feeling in their heart that yeah. So maybe vulnerable

1094
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 7: narcissists would believe conspiracy theories grandioss maybe are just signaling

1095
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 7: to people that they're cool or something.

1096
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of religious groups, a lot of

1097
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: cults like have a similar you know, we are the

1098
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: only ones who know the answers kind of thing going on.

1099
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: But I would say that largely most of those groups,

1100
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: it's like they are run by a narcissist more so

1101
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: than like the participants being narcissists or the followers, I

1102
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: should say. But I guess with conspiracy theories, it's something

1103
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: that I'm just trying to figure it out here, knock

1104
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: it out.

1105
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 5: It's a math equation. I'm on this journey with me too.

1106
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, But conspiracy theorist, it's almost it almost feels like

1107
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: it's more of a public Internet display. And I wonder

1108
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: if that's why, whereas culture more insular just throwing an

1109
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: idea out.

1110
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 5: I don't know what I'm saying.

1111
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 7: I don't know yet, but I think you might be

1112
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 7: right that there is this narcissist at the top at

1113
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 7: least right, And I think that's we spoke about David

1114
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 7: Ike at the beginning. You know, I'm ninety percent sure

1115
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 7: this guy's a grandiose narcissist probably and wants to be

1116
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 7: the leader of this movement, this big you know, I

1117
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 7: don't know, spiritual movement or something. And maybe part of

1118
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 7: that as well is that they form an identity, right,

1119
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 7: they create this kind of group element that has its

1120
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,439
Speaker 7: own I don't know, identity markers and ways of communicating.

1121
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 7: And what that can sometimes include is what we tend

1122
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 7: to call collective narcissism. So it's a type of identification

1123
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 7: with a group, which is like an individual level of narcissism,

1124
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 7: but you do it in a group process, so it's

1125
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 7: like a defensive response of how you protect your in group,

1126
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 7: and it can lead to these kind of destructive things

1127
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 7: where you're just constantly blaming out groups for things are

1128
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 7: related to conspiracy beliefs, of course, So maybe there's an

1129
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 7: element there where there's this narcissist on the top and

1130
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 7: they create this situation which, you know, the identity now

1131
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 7: becomes collective narcissism because that's.

1132
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 4: Who they are individually.

1133
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 7: I don't know the speculation, by the way, I should say,

1134
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 7: there's there's data on that, but yeah, less on the

1135
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 7: kind of conspiracy entrepreneur.

1136
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 5: People, yeah have, do you collect this data.

1137
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 7: It tends to be surveys though in psychology. Yeah, so,

1138
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 7: you know, I mean it depends on the study. But

1139
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 7: either you're doing like, you know, correlational data where you

1140
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 7: look at how these factors are related.

1141
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 4: To each other.

1142
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 7: But more importantly, you know, we run experiments where basically

1143
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 7: you have a control group or you have this thing

1144
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 7: that makes people feel like they need to feel more

1145
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 7: unique or they feel more existentially vulnerable, and we find

1146
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,479
Speaker 7: that they're more likely to believe conspiracy theories than people

1147
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 7: in the control groups. So there's this kind of, yeah,

1148
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 7: you know, control trial type approach to it.

1149
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1150
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: Interesting, Well, I feel like we all kind of know

1151
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: what the answer is here, but hearing from you, what

1152
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 2: are some of the dangers or the real world impacts

1153
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: that conspiratorial thinking can have.

1154
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, so, I guess like we saw a huge example

1155
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 7: of this, right with the COVID nineteen pandemic and with

1156
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 7: climate change. I think on like a collective level, it

1157
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 7: can obviously mean that people don't really want to take

1158
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 7: part in these like collective efforts to mitigate global threats, right,

1159
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 7: They'll be likely to maybe kind of psychologically defend the

1160
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 7: idea that they're under threat and just say it's a

1161
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 7: hoax or kind of play away the fact that this

1162
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 7: is a big threat. That's really damaging for society for

1163
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 7: obvious reasons, you know, but also things where they feel

1164
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 7: kind of scared of new things happening, like vaccines, and

1165
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 7: they'll kind of have reasons in their head which tend

1166
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 7: to be conspiracy theories that mean they don't take the vaccines. Again,

1167
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 7: on the societal level, is very damaging. But having said that,

1168
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 7: there's also these kind of I guess maybe you could

1169
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 7: say less contextual things which just tend to be effects,

1170
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 7: Like if you expose people to general conspiracy theories that

1171
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 7: aren't related to specific groups, they will be more likely

1172
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 7: to endorse feelings of prejudice and also feelings of kind

1173
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 7: of political violence against certain groups, or endorse anti immigrantgration policies.

1174
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 7: So there tends to be this kind of like again,

1175
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 7: intergroup thing and the consequences that they'll endorse, you know,

1176
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 7: hurting out groups or blaming out groups for certain situations.

1177
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 7: That's the kind of really really scary stuff, I think.

1178
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 7: And then finally I would say that it's basically social exclusion.

1179
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 7: So when people endorse conspiracy theories publicly, they do expect

1180
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 7: to be socially excluded, and a lot of the more

1181
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 7: recent evidence is showing that actually they are socially excluded

1182
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 7: as well. And as I said earlier, if you feel

1183
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 7: socially excluded, you're also more likely to believe conspiracy theories.

1184
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 7: So actually pushing these people out put them into a cycle,

1185
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 7: right again that I mentioned earlier.

1186
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 4: So those are the main consequences.

1187
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: Anyway, you had said something on somewhere about this idea

1188
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: of collectivism and how that can kind of reduce some

1189
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: of the impact.

1190
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 7: Can you talk about that, Yeah, so that paper was

1191
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 7: on like the kind of cultural variables of individualism versus collectivism.

1192
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 7: These are quite like old ideas that have been contested

1193
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 7: in psychology, but basic, yes, the feeling that you kind

1194
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 7: of define yourself as part of society. If you're a collectivist,

1195
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 7: so you're responsible for everyone around you. If you're part

1196
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 7: of that, or you're kind of an individual you have

1197
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 7: your own personal autonomy and what everyone else does is

1198
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 7: their own business. And so you know, for example, the

1199
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 7: US and the UK tend to be quite individualist societies,

1200
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 7: whereas for example China and India tend to be more collectivist. Societies,

1201
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 7: and what we found was that during the pandemic, people

1202
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 7: in collectivist societies tended well. I should say, people who

1203
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 7: were more collectivistic felt more power and therefore were less

1204
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 7: likely to believe COVID nineteen conspiracy theories and follow the guidelines.

1205
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 7: And on the other hand, we felt that we found

1206
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 7: that individualist felt powerless and therefore they endorse conspiracy theories

1207
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 7: and were less likely to follow guidelines. And the idea

1208
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 7: here is that, I think, well, this is our theorizing

1209
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 7: was that with individualists, they don't feel like they can

1210
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 7: rely on their fellow citizens to also follow the guidelines,

1211
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 7: so therefore why would they do it themselves? That being

1212
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 7: also related to feelings that people are out to get you,

1213
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 7: because it's this like which you call that like every

1214
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 7: person for themselves, right in an individualism. That's why there

1215
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 7: was this conspiracy idea here, because we thought that maybe

1216
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 7: they would see politicians as kind of being individualistic as

1217
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 7: well and therefore out for their own personal benefit.

1218
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: I just heard a thing on NPR about how trust

1219
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: levels in the US are at the lowest low sense

1220
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: like nineteen twelve or something like that, which which makes

1221
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: sense then that this would be the time that conspiracy

1222
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 2: theories would be so hi, I mean it, yeah, yeah,

1223
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: not feeling any kind of like you have any kind

1224
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 2: of power over your life, like you have any trust

1225
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 2: in your neighbor. Like, these are things that lead us

1226
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 2: to deep feelings of uncertainty and therefore hunting for meaning.

1227
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 4: So I mean, I think, yeah, you kind of nailed it.

1228
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 7: But I think, I mean this is you know, from

1229
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 7: my political like, my political beliefs kind of lead me

1230
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 7: to think that, you know, neoliberalism is kind of tied

1231
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 7: to like, you know, an endorsement of individualist attitudes, right,

1232
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 7: and that spread a lot in the Reagan and Thatcher era,

1233
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 7: and I think that that did a lot of damage

1234
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 7: in terms of like what people expect from their governments

1235
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 7: and therefore how much distance they feel from their governments

1236
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 7: as well, and therefore why would they trust them if

1237
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 7: they don't understand what their intentions are and they've seen

1238
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 7: them do bad things, you.

1239
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:13,959
Speaker 4: Know, And I think that really damaged stuff.

1240
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 7: But again, very much you know, against neoliberalism as a

1241
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 7: kind of general cultural movement.

1242
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 4: So maybe that's my bias.

1243
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: No, No, but I think you're right, And I mean,

1244
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 2: I guess I don't I'm not as familiar with the

1245
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: level of individualism in the UK, but I know here

1246
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: it's very very much a culture of like every man

1247
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 2: for himself, you know, particularly in the more conservative circles.

1248
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,240
Speaker 2: But I just wish I knew a way to bring

1249
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: us back to a more collectivist culture. And it's funny

1250
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: because we have a podcast about colds and the harm

1251
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: that they can cause. But like, it does seem like

1252
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: they were onto something in the seventies when everyone was like,

1253
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: let's all start a bunch of communes and you know,

1254
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: be you know, to have a group together and like

1255
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 2: care about each other, which of course we know went

1256
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: very badly.

1257
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: But there's got to be a way we'll do it.

1258
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 5: No narcissist got in the group, I think it'd be fine.

1259
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 2: How do we screen for the narcissist, Megan.

1260
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 5: I don't know. I'm trying to. I'm trying to make

1261
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 5: up a new I don't know a little thing. You

1262
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 5: scan someone, it can.

1263
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: Only be led by an incredibly uncharismatic person.

1264
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 5: The more uncharismatic who.

1265
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 3: Says nothing fun at.

1266
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 4: All, exactly believe in nothing. Yeah nothing.

1267
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you

1268
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 2: think is interesting or we'd want to mention.

1269
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 7: Oh, there was one thing, yeah, that I kind of

1270
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 7: mentioned earlier that I did want to bring up. Is

1271
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 7: so this idea of collective narcissism, it's related to feelings

1272
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 7: that your group is better than everyone else's group, and

1273
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 7: therefore everyone wants to undermine your group because of maybe

1274
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 7: feelings of jealousy and stuff. And that's why this is

1275
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 7: related to conspiracy beliefs. What we found was while people

1276
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 7: who are collective narcissists expressed this, you know, idea that

1277
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 7: their group is amazing and that everyone should love their

1278
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 7: group and that they love their group, actually they are

1279
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 7: willing to conspire against members of their in group. And

1280
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 7: that's that only members of their in group are not

1281
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 7: members of out groups. So what this suggests is that

1282
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 7: these people are like using the in group to exploit

1283
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 7: it for their own ends, which is a lot of

1284
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 7: the time we see conspiracy beliefs are related to this

1285
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 7: notion of like caring about yourself and not others. It's like,

1286
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 7: what I find really interesting about this, this is why

1287
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 7: I want to bring this up, is people who who

1288
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 7: intend to conspire against other people are more likely to

1289
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 7: believe conspiracy theories, and the idea here is that they're

1290
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 7: projecting their own intentions onto others. If I would do

1291
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 7: it myself, why wouldn't everyone else do it? As we

1292
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 7: kind of touched on earlier. So I just think that's

1293
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 7: a really interesting thing to maybe think about. Maybe not

1294
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 7: all conspiracy believers are like this, but actually there's maybe

1295
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 7: a worrying idea about why they would see the world

1296
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 7: in that certain ways that they'd be willing to do

1297
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 7: it themselves given the opportunity, right right. I find that

1298
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 7: super interesting.

1299
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 2: So very scary to me.

1300
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 5: Not me. I think it's great.

1301
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 4: Chaos.

1302
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 5: Teach me how to.

1303
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 3: Embrace the chaos, mikey know. Just awesome.

1304
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for talking to us. This

1305
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: has been amazing. Are you on social media? Can people

1306
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 2: find you anywhere?

1307
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, sir.

1308
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 7: If you look me up on Twitter, I have is

1309
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 7: a biddle psych that's a b I D D L

1310
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 7: E and then psych is in psychology. Yeah, you can

1311
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 7: find me tweeting about my work, probably once or twice

1312
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 7: a year.

1313
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 5: Perfect.

1314
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.

1315
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 4: Thank you, Wilson, Thank you so much for having me on.

1316
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 4: I had so much fun.

1317
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: Okay, well, Megan, I don't have anything to ask you really, Yeah,

1318
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: I get that. But here's just a thought that I

1319
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: had as we were wrapping up and kind of wish

1320
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: we'd had more time to talk about, which is just

1321
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: sort of wondering if conspiracy thinking happens more in highly

1322
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: capitalistic societies, because capitalism seems to breed that type of

1323
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 2: individualism that we were talking about, where it's every man

1324
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: for himself and everyone's cling their way to the top

1325
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: and there's not really like a communal like taking care

1326
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: of each other and making sure everyone's needs are met,

1327
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

1328
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: So, you know, I'm very curious about that because also

1329
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: we have done a lot of you know, I think

1330
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: you were talking about like nineteen sixty eight something crazy

1331
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: and China happened.

1332
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 5: You remember that.

1333
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: What were you saying, Yeah, yeah, that was the Cultural Revolution?

1334
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that small tiny thing where it's like sometimes

1335
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: communism can also be like everybody has to think the

1336
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: same thing, and then it can also right also start

1337
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: making It's an interesting question.

1338
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: I know, I mean, I guess I just mean this

1339
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: idea of like some version of socialism, I don't obviously

1340
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: like extreme you know, fascist communism is going to be

1341
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: a whole different animal. But you know, just a society

1342
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: in which people kind of take care of the needy

1343
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: more so. Yeah, and like there and feel a personal

1344
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: responsibility to like look out for each other.

1345
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 3: I just, yeah, I don't know what that really, I

1346
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: wonder would look like.

1347
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 5: Of course we don't.

1348
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, does anyone?

1349
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 5: No, we have not seen it yet.

1350
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 3: I want it, Oh God.

1351
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 5: Hopefully a narcissist will come and show it to us soon.

1352
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 3: And then, yeah, well.

1353
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 5: That was a great interview. I love talking to him.

1354
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: We have two more interesting episodes on Conspiracy Theory month.

1355
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 5: We can't wait to see y'all here next week.

1356
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: As always, remember to follow your gup, watch out for.

1357
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 2: Redflax, and never ever trust me. Bye Bye. Trust Me

1358
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1359
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 5: The special thanks to Stacy Para and.

1360
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1361
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1362
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1363
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1364
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1365
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1366
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: hits on Twitter.

1367
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word