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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me? Where I ever lead

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Speaker 1: you astray? Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 2: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 2: welcome to trust me. The podcast about Colt's extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and of course, manipulation from two disobedient podcasters who've actually

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Speaker 2: experienced it, and I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: This week our guest is Sarah stan Korb, author of

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Speaker 2: Disobedient Women, a book about how women across America began

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Speaker 2: speaking out about abuse and evangelical communities. She's going to

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Speaker 2: talk to us about the quiverful ideology, which is the

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Speaker 2: idea of having as many children as possible to populate

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Speaker 2: the earth with patriarchal Christians, evangelical propaganda from the eighties

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Speaker 2: and nineties that encouraged women to submit to their fathers

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Speaker 2: even as adults, and then their husbands, and of course

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Speaker 2: Bill Gothard and IBLP.

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Speaker 3: We'll discuss the patterns she's observed among these women that

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Speaker 3: have spoken out, whether this kind of SoC stemic abuse

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Speaker 3: and covering up of abuse is inherent to evangelical culture,

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Speaker 3: and the connections between some of these fundamentalist figures and

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Speaker 3: our current political system.

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Speaker 2: Fine, fine, before we talk about that, Megan, what's your

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Speaker 2: cultia thing this week?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so most of you have probably watched unknown number

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Speaker 3: the High School Catfish on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: I have not.

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Speaker 3: If you are one who has not, then this is

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Speaker 3: a spoiler and skip it. But oh you can't. You're

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Speaker 3: gonna spoil it for me. Okay, you're gonna get it.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't want to watch it and are

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Speaker 3: just like, what is it, here's a quick cliff notes. Basically,

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Speaker 3: a girl in a small Michigan town starts getting cyberbullied, Okay,

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Speaker 3: very very badly.

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Speaker 4: The fifty to sixty messages a day.

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Speaker 3: Things like your boyfriend doesn't love you, your body's disgusting,

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Speaker 3: you should kill yourself. The whole community gets pulled in

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Speaker 3: because the FBI is like investigating those like kids are getting,

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Speaker 3: you know, accused, Like it's a whole ass thing, and

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Speaker 3: the families of these two kids at the center of it,

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Speaker 3: it's a girl and her boyfriend, are so concerned and

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Speaker 3: you're just like, wow, this is actually ruining these people's lives.

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Speaker 3: And then the reveal they follow the digital footprint. It's

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Speaker 3: very hard because this person has some sort of knowledge

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Speaker 3: because they're actually able to kind of hide it. And

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Speaker 3: it is the girl's breaking mother.

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Speaker 4: Her mother who's been interviewed this.

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Speaker 3: Entire first half and is like and I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what to do, and like and she's at the principal's

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Speaker 3: office all the time crying, and you're like.

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Speaker 2: A good, good, oh my jaws hanging open for those

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Speaker 2: who can't see me, which is everyone.

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Speaker 3: So there's so many things that are you know, alleged

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Speaker 3: to be true through conversations on the internet and using

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Speaker 3: her own brain while yer watching it. There's theories out

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Speaker 3: there like, well, she's a pedophile allegedly, and she was

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Speaker 3: obsessed with the daughter's boyfriend, and you know she kind

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Speaker 3: of seems to be and was sending them very graphic

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Speaker 3: sexual descriptions and her mom yeah, yeah. And then that's like, well,

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Speaker 3: perhaps she was an alcoholic. There was like a thousand

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Speaker 3: bottles on the table when they the police cam footage

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Speaker 3: captured her. Perhaps she's a narcissist. You know, there's people

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Speaker 3: in her family saying she always had to be the

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Speaker 3: center of attention, and it's like, all of those things

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Speaker 3: can be true. But one of the things that struck

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Speaker 3: me the most was the principle was like, this is

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Speaker 3: the principal at the school who got pulled into this

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Speaker 3: as well. I was like, this is digital Munchausen. I

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Speaker 3: was gonna say that, Oh, yes, so it is digital

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Speaker 3: munch House. Munchhausen is one of these really interesting yeah

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Speaker 3: dynamics that we talk about a lot on this podcast

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Speaker 3: because it is that cult of too, you know, it

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Speaker 3: is like how many people does it take to make

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Speaker 3: a cult?

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Speaker 1: Too?

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Speaker 2: But in this case, but she didn't even know she

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Speaker 2: was in a culture to her mom just loved the

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Speaker 2: attention because her daughter was getting victimized, and.

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Speaker 3: So her mom loved being number one at the center

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Speaker 3: of the like, oh my god, your poor daughter. You

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Speaker 3: can see in the beginning half of the documentary she's

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Speaker 3: like glowing with all the attention something. But and like

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Speaker 3: people are like, no, the daughter must have been in

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Speaker 3: on it, because the mom was like, you should kill yourself,

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Speaker 3: you should actually actually kill yourself immediately, and it's like no,

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Speaker 3: a lot of moms with Munchausen will kill their child,

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Speaker 3: Like that's the ultimate yeah, that's the ultimate poor you

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Speaker 3: attention thing. And then there's the Stockholm thing at play,

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Speaker 3: where the daughter is like I can't wait for my

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Speaker 3: mom and I to have a normal relationship again. And

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Speaker 3: you're like, what the fah, Yeah, so I think we

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Speaker 3: will see a lot more of this.

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Speaker 2: What's the term that they are using. Oh, it's like,

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Speaker 2: uh use factitious disorder imposed on another fdiatitious not And

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Speaker 2: then some people, I believe we're all also calling it

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Speaker 2: like medical child abuse or something. Okay, but anyway, different

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Speaker 2: terms for Munchausen by proxy. Yes, yes, but that totally

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Speaker 2: makes sense in a way. I'm like, well, at least

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Speaker 2: they're not physically killing the child. But then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: but if you're emotionally destroying the child and or putting

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Speaker 2: them in harm's way by encouraging who is that?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, that's not better.

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Speaker 3: And like basically, you know, the the text are like

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Speaker 3: a molesting of sort.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, horrible, horrible.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad I don't have to watch these documentaries

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Speaker 2: because you do all the watchable for me, the watching

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Speaker 2: for you. And indeed, I've done a rewatch, so are

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Speaker 2: you already? Yeah, I just.

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Speaker 3: Wants the And you know what, WELLA I knew the

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Speaker 3: twist because I'd read it in the news, but I

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Speaker 3: still was like, surely they're going to pull that twist

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Speaker 3: where it's like an actor playing the mom and she's

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Speaker 3: gonna be like, I'm not actually Lauren's. But this woman

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Speaker 3: was like, I am the mom. We all make mistakes

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Speaker 3: and you're like, oh.

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Speaker 2: My god, oh no, yeah, wow, yeah that I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that is probably going

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Speaker 2: to become more common, which is horrifying.

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Speaker 3: Like, be careful out there, guys. What's your cultiest thing

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Speaker 3: of the week.

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Speaker 2: Just another just another culty person on the internet claiming

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Speaker 2: to have special powers.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think I should say their name because

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Speaker 2: I feel like it gives them attention, So I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to.

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to describe them. This is in itself

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Speaker 3: very interesting the description.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this person I believe is a man but

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Speaker 2: describes themself but I don't know what pronouns are using

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Speaker 2: because they purposely make it ambiguous because they claim to

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Speaker 2: be an alien and the way that they present themselves

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Speaker 2: is completely shaved head, completely shaved eyebrows.

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Speaker 4: He looks exactly like the guy from Barry.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes oh he does, yeah, yes, and

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Speaker 2: his eyes are so blue. I'm wondering if it's contacts,

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Speaker 2: there's earrings, there's like there's like a uniform. And he

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Speaker 2: does this thing where he's so strange looking. He does

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Speaker 2: this thing where he like stares into camera and kind

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Speaker 2: of like he's a lot like Benton Home.

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Speaker 4: Masorrow or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like he stares into camera and tells you about

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Speaker 2: his special powers and about how stuff is happening on

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Speaker 2: Earth and he's been sent here to do something or

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Speaker 2: other with some kind of mission. And it's so silly

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Speaker 2: looking that like I first saw this person. I don't

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Speaker 2: even remember how they came up on my feet. I

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Speaker 2: first saw this person and I was like, well, this

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Speaker 2: is obviously like everybody on this page knows that this

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Speaker 2: is insane. Yeah, but then of course you look and

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Speaker 2: I'm like two people I know follow them on ironically,

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Speaker 2: and the comments are all like like six hundred comments.

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Speaker 2: We are locked in time for the unseen to be

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Speaker 2: seen is about time and to the matrix. Welcome the

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Speaker 2: New Earth and all species. We out here anchoring the

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Speaker 2: frequencies and it's just over and overget and love you, bro.

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Speaker 2: We in this spiritual battle together as a team. Always

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Speaker 2: it's always there's like a battle happening on Earth, and

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Speaker 2: this alien ass dude is gonna give us all the answers.

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Speaker 2: It's endlessly fascinating to me that when these people come

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Speaker 2: up and so many people are like, no, for sure, no,

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Speaker 2: that seems true.

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Speaker 1: You're an alien?

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Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean at least levite or something.

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Speaker 3: If something shape shift in front of my eyes.

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Speaker 1: So if you just.

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Speaker 2: Shave your head and eyebrows and you look a little weird,

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Speaker 2: m blue contacts, blue contract boom, that's what aliens look like.

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Speaker 2: And that really does bring into question, you know, like

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Speaker 2: is this somebody having a like an episode or is

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Speaker 2: this just somebody who's a grifter. But I look at

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Speaker 2: their other posts and I'm like, I think definitely grifter.

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Speaker 4: Because the other posts are like just basically.

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Speaker 2: Trying to be a regular ass influencer, Like look at

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Speaker 2: my outfit, love, my I found true love, you know,

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Speaker 2: my alien spiritual partner whatever. Like they're all like buying

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Speaker 2: for attention, just in every other possible way you could

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Speaker 2: do that as an influencer, except that they're also an

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Speaker 2: alien who's saving the world.

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Speaker 1: Is their partner in alien?

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Speaker 2: I didn't go deep enough to know, but she doesn't

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Speaker 2: have shaved anything.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so then she must be from Earth. Goron is

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Speaker 3: the character he looks like from Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: It's really funny actually, I mean it's a great look.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, if you were playing on stage and

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Speaker 3: you look like that, I'd be like, hell, yah, you

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Speaker 3: look cool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It's a cool striking yeah, very memorable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it.

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Speaker 3: Is a little bit scary how you really can just

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Speaker 3: kind of say anything, you can kind of.

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Speaker 2: See anything, and if you like, look the part and

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Speaker 2: say it with confidence.

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Speaker 4: Boom.

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Speaker 3: And it's online and people share it boom boom.

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Speaker 4: Oh so many of these people. Now, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Technology has done wonders for aspiring cult leaders, true narcissists

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Speaker 2: in general.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel I should add here really quickly that

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Speaker 2: my debut album, Crowd Pleaser is out now.

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Speaker 4: It is available wherever you get.

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Speaker 2: Your music, and I did it completely independently, no label,

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Speaker 2: no management, and I'm really really proud of it.

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Speaker 4: And there are culty themes on it.

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Speaker 2: There are songs about belief and Charlatan's billionaire greed as

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Speaker 2: well as just love and loss.

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Speaker 1: And I would really.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate it if you would give it a listen, a stream,

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Speaker 2: a download, a share, a save, a like, a whatever.

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Speaker 4: It would mean so much to me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, shall we talk to Sarah and get to

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Speaker 3: the bottom of her book, Disobedient Women.

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Speaker 4: Let's get to the bottom of it.

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Speaker 3: Some of the content in today's episode could be triggering,

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Speaker 3: so please take care listening.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Sarah stan Korb to trust Me. Thanks for joining

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Speaker 2: us today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Oh so excited to be.

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Speaker 2: Here, excited to have you. So your book Disobedient Women.

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Speaker 2: We have both been reading it. It is jam packed

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Speaker 2: with these incredible stories. And before we kind of start

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Speaker 2: to get into the stories, I would love to know

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Speaker 2: what brought you to this and if you could talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about that journey all.

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Speaker 1: Do you want the short version or the long version.

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Speaker 2: Of maybe the long version, what's maybe a medium media version.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I was a really religious kid. I was

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Speaker 1: a very Christian kid. I lost my faith in my

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Speaker 1: twenties and then the year's zeros on list working as

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Speaker 1: a reporter has sort of stumbled into a story about Oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you here, and she's in chapter one and I

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Speaker 1: learned about this woman and who is part of something

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Speaker 1: called the Quiverle movement and learned about her life, how

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Speaker 1: many kids she had, how restrictive her life had been,

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Speaker 1: and she was just kind of sharing about her life

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Speaker 1: on the internet. And then I found other women sharing

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Speaker 1: about their lives in these extreme Christian cultures. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: has been a rabbit a hole that I started falling

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Speaker 1: down probably in twenty fourteen, and I'm still in it.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like now the country's waking up to

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Speaker 1: see just how unfortunately relevant Christian patriarchy is to our

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Speaker 1: current situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean, although maybe there's a backlash to that happening already,

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Speaker 2: which we can talk about later. But how did you

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Speaker 2: lose your faith? I mean, can you just tell a

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Speaker 2: little bit about that journey?

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Speaker 1: So it was probably a mix of a couple of things. First,

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Speaker 1: I was a Methodist kid, and my best friend and

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Speaker 1: became very evangelical started to take me to a I

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Speaker 1: Will study and I was presented with this very literalist

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Speaker 1: version of the Bible, which I had never encountered before,

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Speaker 1: and I think in a lot of ways I had

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Speaker 1: damage things for me. And later when I went on

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Speaker 1: to study religion and realized, well, this thing can't possibly

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Speaker 1: be literal. It's drawn from so many different groups and

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Speaker 1: cultures and time periods. It just wouldn't stay together. That

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Speaker 1: I was part of it. And then as a very

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Speaker 1: Methodist youth, I went to the youth anual Conference, which

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Speaker 1: is a very Methodist sort of representative group that you

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Speaker 1: get sent off to for a long weekend. And this

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Speaker 1: was right when the United Methodist Church was first starting

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Speaker 1: to grapple with being accepting a crew people. And there

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Speaker 1: was a very small minority of us in the room

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Speaker 1: that we're hoping we could be accepting. And I just

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Speaker 1: remember sitting in this room and seeing someone in my

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Speaker 1: age quoting the Bible, or at least what he thought

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Speaker 1: the Bible said, an actual spit coming out of his mouth,

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Speaker 1: and so much anger, and we can vote either to

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Speaker 1: support queer people or not. In this room, like the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of the room stood up against loving our

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Speaker 1: friends and neighbors, and that I was one of very

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Speaker 1: few who stood up to support folks. And I just

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Speaker 1: I thought, if this is if this is Christianity, I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes sense, makes sense.

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Speaker 3: You write really beautifully about the grief that comes with

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Speaker 3: losing your faith, and yeah, I think that's just an

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Speaker 3: important thing to note it's a very painful process too.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a breakup. Yeah, no, it is. And

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Speaker 1: so I actually just turned in the manuscript for my

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Speaker 1: second book, which is about women leaving the church. So

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Speaker 1: I've spent in years and then especially this last year,

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Speaker 1: talking to women about what we left. And it's a

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Speaker 1: break up. It's peeling off part of your identity and

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Speaker 1: it is usually very, very painful. You don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Lately, yeah, I mean it's such a big part of

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Speaker 2: your life and your sense of self and your community

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Speaker 2: and just like everything about you. I mean, yeah, we

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Speaker 2: talk about it a lot on this podcast, how much

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Speaker 2: our belief systems are a part of our identity, and

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Speaker 2: we don't realize how painful it is to lose a

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Speaker 2: chunk of who you believe that you are and how

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Speaker 2: you believe that the world works. I mean it's really yeah,

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Speaker 2: a grief process for sure. Yeah. So we've talked about

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Speaker 2: the Quiverbile movement on this podcast a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: reading your book, I got a lot more insight into

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Speaker 2: the details, some of which were just so crazy.

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Speaker 4: Can you just tell us a little bit about what

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Speaker 4: that is?

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Speaker 1: Yes, So this is an idea that was popularized by

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Speaker 1: peopil like the Gothard. If you're a listeners are familiar

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Speaker 1: with happy, shiny people, but are also some female figures

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Speaker 1: that sort of have not been the future of a

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Speaker 1: series yet late is Campbell and Mary Pride. So it

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Speaker 1: was this idea that it is Christian's duty to create

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Speaker 1: an army for God. That you are filling your quiver

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Speaker 1: and our armist children, and this will help populate the

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Speaker 1: country with Christians, this will help politically. There are there

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Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why you would do this. For

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Speaker 1: the women, though it's sold as being in Christian servants,

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Speaker 1: you use your body. God gave you this womb. If

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Speaker 1: you do not accept every child God could give you,

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Speaker 1: you're going against God's well. So breath control bad of course,

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Speaker 1: no abortion. And also part of this, and this is

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Speaker 1: a vaky story, was this idea that well, not everyone

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Speaker 1: can be a missionary who goes abroad, but you can

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Speaker 1: be a missionary at home. Yeah, and even if it

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Speaker 1: puts your own life at risk, well then you become

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Speaker 1: a murder for God. Shoot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the martyr thing starts to come into play. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit more about Vicky Garrison.

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Speaker 1: So she had child all the after child. And I

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Speaker 1: think the way she describes her period of having baby

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Speaker 1: after a baby, I've heard from a lot of women,

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Speaker 1: either as mothers themselves or the oldest daughter who ended

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Speaker 1: up taking care of all these subsequent children. Right, because

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Speaker 1: the mother's exhausted, she's pregnant, she's a nurse, saying her

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Speaker 1: body never heals, and so in Vickie's case, she had

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Speaker 1: need to re rupture. She also thought she needed to

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Speaker 1: have these babies at home with the a medal engine.

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Speaker 1: So she was just so thin, so depleted. She had

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Speaker 1: a doctor's telling her like, this is not safe, and

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Speaker 1: her midiwife telling her to, you know, go ahead, keep

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Speaker 1: doing it.

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Speaker 2: So the doctor's like, literally, it will. It is dangerous

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Speaker 2: to you. You're putting yourself in danger by having more children.

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Speaker 2: But everything in her community is saying, no, this is

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Speaker 2: your duty.

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Speaker 1: You have to do that.

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Speaker 3: Also in her community people, but correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 3: because this might be a different story. But we're saying, like,

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Speaker 3: when you're breastfeeding, your body is going to protect you

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Speaker 3: from becoming pregnant immediately, so it's going to give you

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Speaker 3: this like grace period. And that's simply not true. So

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Speaker 3: that was just a dangerous propaganda lie that tricked people

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Speaker 3: into having more children.

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, so in her case, she nearly died

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Speaker 1: mm hmm. And like what would what would have happened

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Speaker 1: to all of these children? Right? So, And the other

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Speaker 1: side of this is like you're having all these kids,

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Speaker 1: you're also supposed to be submissive to your husband. And

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Speaker 1: if you are in a bad situation where that power

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Speaker 1: goes to the man's head or he was already inclined

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Speaker 1: to be abusive anyway, there's no escape. They can't work.

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Speaker 1: That's in their minds against God as well, and there's

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Speaker 1: no time because they're constantly having babies, right, So it's

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Speaker 1: it's related.

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Speaker 2: It's very sad, yeah, because with in this belief system,

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Speaker 2: the husband is the authority within the family, so you

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Speaker 2: must listen to the husband in order to.

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Speaker 1: Be obedient to God, right Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I do hear stories like this a lot in various

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Speaker 2: kinds of fundamentalist communities where if the husband is abusive,

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Speaker 2: Like it's not like these systems are always telling the

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Speaker 2: men to be abusive, but if the man is abusive, exactly,

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Speaker 2: he's the one in charge and there's really no recourse

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Speaker 2: because the women are supposed to listen to the husband.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and often like as you get deep from

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Speaker 1: the book. This sentence of elevated authority also exists within

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Speaker 1: their churches. Right, so when they even if they do

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Speaker 1: report abuse, the pastor feels empowered to be the one

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Speaker 1: to deal with it. Right, so it's handled in house

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Speaker 1: and making quotes, which means it's not handled, it's not reported, right, right.

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Speaker 2: I think there was a number regarding the amount of

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Speaker 2: children that Christians should have to alter, like the percentage

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Speaker 2: of Christians in the population was it?

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Speaker 4: Was it eighty? What was the goal?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me again? So this comes from Mary Pride,

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Speaker 1: the anti feminist I mentioned. So her formula was eight

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Speaker 1: Christians or twenty percent of the population. The each Christian

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Speaker 1: family had six children, and the humanists of feminists, now

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Speaker 1: they kept on having an average one. Then in twenty

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Speaker 1: years there would be sixty of us for every forty

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Speaker 1: of them. In forty years, ninety percent of America would

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Speaker 1: be Christians. Right, So I like that pro natalist thing

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing now, it's not new.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me want to become a pro natalist

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Speaker 2: for feminists, because I'm like, well.

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Speaker 4: They can't outnumber us.

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Speaker 1: Nola's gonna have six children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that idea of this like Christian supremacy, we have

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Speaker 2: to take over. You know, the country's only virtuous if

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Speaker 2: it's all Christian. I mean, it's so scary to me, Like, sure,

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Speaker 2: have babies, if you want to have babies, but like, why,

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Speaker 2: what's the goal? The goal is to take over the

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Speaker 2: nation and the government. And you know, like there's just

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Speaker 2: this like nefarious undertone to all of that that I

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Speaker 2: find alarming. I also wrote down some names of some

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Speaker 2: of the books and movies that you wrote about in

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Speaker 2: your book, because I am not familiar with this culture,

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Speaker 2: and I find it absolutely fascinating.

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Speaker 3: And absolutely fascinating that it was like one of the

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Speaker 3: highest grossing movies I know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so here, I'm just gonna list them off,

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Speaker 2: and if if you have anything particular to say about

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Speaker 2: any of them, please But the way home beyond feminism,

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Speaker 2: back to reality at home, there was a DVD called

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Speaker 2: Training Dominion Oriented Daughters Horrifying. There was a film called

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Speaker 2: The Monstrous Regiment of Women and in it Jenny Chancey

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Speaker 2: is that who was Jenny Chancey? I think so explains

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Speaker 2: that quote. God created men for leadership, and he clearly

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Speaker 2: tells us in his word that when women are in leadership,

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Speaker 2: it's a sign of a curse upon a nation. Wow,

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Speaker 2: how big is the market for these types of materials?

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Speaker 1: So, okay, this is one of these things. I get

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Speaker 1: very nerdy. So this is there. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: those that media was funneled through something called Vision Forum,

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Speaker 1: which was I feel find amalast in the nineties. So

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Speaker 1: this is like a pre internet, early internet, people would

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Speaker 1: get a physical catalog in the mail and if you

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Speaker 1: Google you can still find some of these catalogs. So

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Speaker 1: it's just page after page basically anti woman, biblical generals propaganda.

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Speaker 1: So books, films, toys like the toys crack me up.

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Speaker 1: What are the toys? They're warlike for the boys? Basically

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Speaker 1: the girls get dolls. That's what you do for a

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Speaker 1: roll because you're gonna become a mother and have all

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Speaker 1: these kids. Right, So that that was the stream back then.

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Speaker 1: Then the Phillips fell all due to a sex handle. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you've been if you've been on the internet and

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Speaker 1: seen the CNN interview with Douglas Wilson recently, it's had

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Speaker 1: a few things to say about women voting spree any bells, Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So he I think is the inheritor of the desire

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Speaker 1: for these sort of media properties. He is a pastor

439
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: out in Moscow, Idaho, who started a christ church there,

440
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: started a Keith through twelve school called Logos. He started

441
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: a college called New Sandie Andrews. He started a seminary

442
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: program called Grave Ores. He started to published a house

443
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: called Can't Impress, which has produced books such as the

444
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: Case for Christian Nationalism. So there's also streaming service. There

445
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: are a lot of entities attached to Wilson. He most

446
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: recently was on CNN, where he was intributed by his

447
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: views concerting in Christian nationalism and women. Some of his

448
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: accolades talked about, how you know, householder voting is probably

449
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: the way in a Christian nation we should go, Oh

450
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: that it is usually the mayan votes for the whole family,

451
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: and maybe the nineteenth Amendment should be a repeal. That's

452
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: that's that's the world in which that Wilson exists. He's

453
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: extremely attractive to a certain type of listener. He has

454
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: this kind of like philosopher King error. Every November on

455
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: his blog he does something he calls no quarter November

456
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: where he writes mean blog posts about people for a

457
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: month and then packages it and sells it as an anthology.

458
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: What Yes. The lead up to that he they produce

459
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: video trailers where he sets fire to something, So the

460
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: idea is that he is in Syndi here. So he

461
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: set fire to a trunk, a boat. A couple of

462
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: years ago, he had a flanthrower. The ed he set

463
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: fire to cut out of a couple of Disney princesses. Wow.

464
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: And then they sell the flamethrower through cannon breath. This

465
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: whole thing's a huge moneymaker. Yeah, but it also inductions

466
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: people and is attractive to certain type of families, a

467
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: certain type of man. And within this he also teaches

468
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: women it must be submissive to their husbands. And within

469
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: the book there are stories about how the up plays out. Again,

470
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: these are women, some who are never taught that they

471
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: were able to say no. So when you're put into

472
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: a situation where you are obligated to submit, it can

473
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: be awful. And I'll give you the length to the

474
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: vice story. There are a number of alarming stories attached

475
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: to Wilson, but right now he is mostly the news

476
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: because christ Church has planted a church in Washington, DC,

477
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: which haig Seth is attending, and it's creating a lot

478
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: of you, Pete haig Seth, Yeah, and it's creating a

479
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: lot of ruts.

480
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: And for those who are bad at history, like me,

481
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: the Nineteenth Amendment is what gave women the right to vote,

482
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: and he is trying to repeal that so that women

483
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: cannot vote anymore, so that their fathers or husbands decide

484
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: for them.

485
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. On CNN, it was one of the other pastors

486
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: who brought who talked about the nineteenth Amendment. But yes,

487
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: in this world, there are plenty of pastors who are

488
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: if you searched their names, they would like to reveal

489
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: the Nineteenth Amendment. They say that women having the right

490
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: to vote has adam eyed the American family. Basically, women

491
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: can have a view separate from their husbands and that

492
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: it's a problem. So he has his own published house

493
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: treetening service. They have documentaries about how to raise is

494
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: it in a world that he's meant to be more

495
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: mainly it is the next generation. But you don't have

496
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: to buy DD now. You can just subscribe to the

497
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: streaming service and get your propaganda.

498
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: That one well, and and or just go on social

499
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: media and go on yeah, TikTok, right, I imagine. I mean

500
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: that's not what my algorithm shows me, but I imagine

501
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: there are quite a few people who are getting that

502
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: kind of content in their algorithm.

503
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: Yes, is there one of these like evangelical books or

504
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: films that really stands out to you as like, whoa,

505
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: that's the craziest I'm.

506
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: Trying to remember if it's the book or there was

507
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: a book and a film. So Return of the Daughters

508
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: something that was very meaningful for some women. Any Yeah,

509
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: and this was at the time fringe, but it completely

510
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: changed the way people approach raising their girls into grown women.

511
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: And the idea is, until you come of age and

512
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: are married, you are to be a stay at home daughter,

513
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: so you're under your father's authority. When you do get

514
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: married to a man that your father has approved of,

515
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: then you move under your husband's authority. So this created

516
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: lots of andy excuses for not educating girls and not

517
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: sending them off to college where they learn about feminism

518
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: and Marxism and all of the scary things that are

519
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: out there. Instead, keep them home, keeps them safe, keeps

520
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: them from being exposed. To an external world that may

521
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: teach them there are some other value. And I think

522
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: for the families that will watch that film, it just

523
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: it changes the structure of their daughter's lot.

524
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: Wait, what was called return a return of the daughters's

525
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: book or that there was a part of book and film.

526
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: They basically said the same thing.

527
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: It sounds like a sequel to a horror film or something.

528
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: Yes, it does. And stay at home daughter? That is diabolical.

529
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, how prevalent is that idea in evangelical culture? Now, so,

530
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: wholl have you heard of childwives?

531
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: So I did an article. I wrote an article for

532
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: l that I think published in May. And in the

533
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: article I interviewed a group of women and then a

534
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: woman who's like standalone former child wives. So they were

535
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: not necessarily raised with the terms stay at home daughter.

536
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: Some were familiar with it, some of their families got

537
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: these catalogs. But they were raised to believe they need

538
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: to be some miss to their father until they got

539
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: married and that would be submissive to husband. And what

540
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 1: they weren't on TikTok, they weren't on Instagram. They what

541
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 1: it was like to be a submissive woman. They just

542
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: lived it. So there's probably a gradient skill of what

543
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: that submission looks like. The more extreme end is this

544
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: model where we actually use the terms home daughter, but

545
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: the idea that you have to submit to your father

546
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: until you submit your husband. That's baked into a lot

547
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: of the Christian rite.

548
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: Which brings me to Bill Gothard and the IBLP. We've

549
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: talked about them a bit, but can you give us

550
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: a refresher on who he is and what that was.

551
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: So they'll goth I hate to call people's teachers like

552
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: they talked about their teachings. It was a nineteen seventies, eighties,

553
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: nineties Christian influencer, so he also had his own publishing house.

554
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: He opened training centers all over the country a few

555
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: other places around the world. He was the head of

556
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: a parachurch organization, so he did not lead a church. Instead,

557
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: he offered his teachings by way of books or lecturesey

558
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: he get as a DVD and chows your church, and

559
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: he also hosted conferences. One of his big moneymakers was

560
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: his role with homeschool movement, so he was publishing house

561
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: created curricula that basically did not educate these kids, but

562
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: purported to be biblical and in this way he was elevated,

563
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: as some people have called it, an evangelical pope. People

564
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: outside this world had no idea who this man was.

565
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 4: How convenient for him? Right right? Yeah?

566
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then when the duggers ended up on KLC,

567
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: we had handy poster children for what it is to

568
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: be a quippable woman, what it's like to impose obedience

569
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: on many many children, dress conservatively, live in the way

570
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: that he had been teaching families to do for years.

571
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: I hadn't heard about the vast sectomy reversal thing.

572
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 4: Can you talk about that?

573
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: Yeah? So this is along that same logic that you

574
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: should not block God's blessings. God there encourage people to

575
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: either reverse having their tubes side or usually if it's

576
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: at me of reversals, and then these kids, these reversal

577
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: be babies will be paraded across the stage at his conferences.

578
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: At times there were enough to a whole hires of

579
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: versiectory reversal children who owed their lives to bothered frequencing

580
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: their parents to keep having these babies.

581
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: Just for reference, can you tell us how many people

582
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: are at these conferences?

583
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: Thousands?

584
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 3: It's like a stadium full of like it's a rock concert.

585
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: But and then there's like a choir full of vasectomy

586
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: reversal babies. Like, let's really take a beat and think

587
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: about how many people that is and how crazy it is.

588
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: It's so crazy.

589
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 5: Why these were like people who had in many cases

590
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 5: already had a good number of children and were like, whoa,

591
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 5: we did that, And then their you know, belief system

592
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 5: is telling them, no, you have to keep going.

593
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter if you're it doesn't matter if you've reached

594
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: your capacity or if you're in pain or whatever, like.

595
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: No more money.

596
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

597
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: There's no consideration for like the quality of life of

598
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: the children as well. They're just that's never a part

599
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: of the equation, like if you can afford it, if

600
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: you're going to be healthy, if you're gonna be able

601
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: to take care of them, Like that's never doesn't matter.

602
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: We don't care about how the children actually are. We

603
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: just as long as there's souls on the earth.

604
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

605
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 3: Also, how you point out in the book that they

606
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 3: have all this propaganda about like there's plenty of room

607
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 3: in the world from our children, Like you could fit

608
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 3: the whole wide world into Jacksonville, Florida with everybody having

609
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: a foot of space, and it's like, who wants that?

610
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: What are you talking about? Like you need resources and stuff.

611
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: It's just the logic is so circular and flawed and

612
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: annoying and yeah, annoying and like but in a way

613
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: that makes me annoying is not the correct No, but

614
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 3: I understand.

615
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 4: It's it's fucked up, fucked up.

616
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and just like talking to these folks, the

617
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: things they miss, just like even just educationally, like forget

618
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: that not having access to health care, forget the poverty,

619
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: forget all of that. Many lived through educational neglecte. They

620
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: had these wisdom booklets. It supposedly can hate everything you'd

621
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: ever need to learn from the sermon on the Mound.

622
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: But I didn't learn science or I didn't learn bad

623
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: and the trajetary. When you meet a girl who was told, well,

624
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: you're going to be a mommy, and maybe you need

625
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: to learn just enough that you can present homeschool curricula,

626
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: maybe by video. That's that's your potential, even when they

627
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: get away from it. And I've interviewed women who thought

628
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: tooth and nail to get out and get an education.

629
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: The amount of time and energy they have to spendfully

630
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: in holes they didn't even know they had history.

631
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, about science, it's very no, every person deserves the

632
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 3: right to know that they're horrible at mouth.

633
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna say I got gaps in history too,

634
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 2: and that's just because of my own brain.

635
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, it's so true, and just setting them

636
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: up for a life where it's just circular.

637
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: You know, what else can you do? How can you leave?

638
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 4: It's a closed system.

639
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: There's no understanding of how anything works outside of your system,

640
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: So why would you even know to question it and

641
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: question that authority like it's a perfect way to keep

642
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: people controlled and powerless, to prevent them from getting educated

643
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 2: violently angry.

644
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

645
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: When I was reading your book and reading some of

646
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: the stories you wrote about Bill Gothard's victims, for a

647
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: second I thought that it was one of our former guests,

648
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: Lindsay Williams, because it was so similar, and then realized, oh, right,

649
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 2: they're just he just did this to so many girls

650
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: like this. It is the same story over and over

651
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: again because he did it to so many girls. And

652
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: for those who don't know what I'm referencing, do you

653
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: want to just explain what I'm talking about?

654
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so part of Goth's influence was that he would

655
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: he would tell people eat it, how to dress, and

656
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: his description of how to dress was supposedly what was godly,

657
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: so long hair short and cut to the skirt. And

658
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: then years later, as people started to share stories of

659
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: harassment and assault within his training centers where these young

660
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: young kids were sent to work for free with Gothard,

661
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: it seems he had a type and he had these

662
00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: patterns of behavior that just the grooming process is repeated

663
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: over and over, and it was chilling to me. You're

664
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: reporting on this, realizing that the foot as people gave

665
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 1: me photos of what they look like, then that they

666
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: fit how he was telling women to dress themselves like

667
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: he had a type, and even his books, even the

668
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: way he asked people telling them this is godly.

669
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 5: Like.

670
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: The grooming didn't start at the training center. The grooming

671
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: started way way back when their parents were the church

672
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: basement watching his babyds.

673
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 3: So this is like a pervert who decided to start

674
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 3: an army of girls that were his type for.

675
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: Him to sectually harass and inappropriately touched.

676
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: And whether that was his initial motive, that is what

677
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: the allegation show happened.

678
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: Right, allegedly, yes, right, what is your take on how

679
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: much of these kinds the stories of chronic abuse is

680
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: endemic to evangelical Christianity versus just oh, this is just

681
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: how humans are. Sometimes there'll be people who abuse their power,

682
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: Like how much of it do you think comes from

683
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: the actual system and belief?

684
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: That is a question no one has asked me. So.

685
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: Within American evangelicalism, the process for becoming a leader is

686
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: usually something based upon charisma. It's a tangible gifts of

687
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: personality that people can point to and say, oh, God

688
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: gave you that. I'm going to follow you because of

689
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: these gifts. So it does not necessarily mean any theological background, certainly,

690
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: no bichronity counseling. So yeah. End of the people of

691
00:41:54,520 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: a certain personality type often rather a narcissista. Often, how

692
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: should I put this, they too believe God put them

693
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: in this position.

694
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: Right, a little bit of megalomania going on?

695
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, and that's your sture. And then within it

696
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: you have people who truly, truly want to be good

697
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: for God. They're so desperate to be good in the

698
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,439
Speaker 1: eyes of God they will follow a person that they

699
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: think has this bit of God's blessing, right, and so

700
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: that I creates a huge vulnerability, and then you have

701
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: someone who's been elevated. Whenever there are other credentials, they

702
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: are elevated. And I think it's it's a situation that

703
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: at like the husbands who you know, maybe they're abusive,

704
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: maybe they're not. But if you're gonna be abusive and

705
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: you end up in this situation, the abuse magnifies. If

706
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna be your presator in your a physician that

707
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: you seem to be the mouth piece for God, the

708
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 1: fdation expans all sorts of directions. And then I think

709
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: like the additional layer is a fear of exposing the

710
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: wrongdoing of these people that so many people have put

711
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: trust into because well, you'll crush their faith, right, Well,

712
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: well there's the cause for the church. And so even

713
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: when there is evidence, people don't want to talk about it.

714
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's something I think you can probably speak

715
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: to Megan with the two White twos. My thought is that,

716
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: like I think you know that charisma elevates people in

717
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: all spheres of life because I think we as humans

718
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: are just drawn to someone who has that special thing

719
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: and is acting with confidence and seems to know what

720
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: they're talking about. Like, I don't necessarily think that that

721
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: is exclusive to Christianity or anything, but it does seem

722
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: that like one within any blue system where you believe

723
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: that one person is talking directly to God. I mean,

724
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: that's going to just like it's ripe for someone to

725
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: just step in and begin abusing people because they immediately

726
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: have this mystical level of authority.

727
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: And even just like anyone who has special knowledge of anything,

728
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: like we're in Los Angeles, the acting teachers are like

729
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: some of the most abusive people on the planet in

730
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 3: this totally because I have the secret of how to act.

731
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 3: And it's like, bitch, now you don't.

732
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Keith Vaniery, you have special knowledge.

733
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but that like special knowledge person seems to

734
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: be such a crucial thing.

735
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: And yeah, this world is just rife.

736
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 3: With not only people with special knowledge, but men with

737
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: special knowledge who tend to take.

738
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: It up a notch.

739
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 3: And I think I'm sorry to interrupt, Lolla, please go ahead,

740
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: but I think a really good rate on that is

741
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: a well trained wife, remember Tarah Lovings. Yes, yeah, so anyway, yeah, continue, No,

742
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: I was just.

743
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: Saying, I like, what does seem unique to me is

744
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: maybe the like inherent patriarchal structure where women aren't allowed

745
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: to have authority and just statistically abuses much more often

746
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 2: committed by men. And then when women are not allowed

747
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 2: to speak up and not allowed to have you know,

748
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: like they don't have any authority within this system, that

749
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: I guess is, yeah, it makes it more likely that

750
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: it will happen or it will go un addressed.

751
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: One other element I was listening to an old interview

752
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: with Martin E. Marty the Theology any Studio Angelicals for

753
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: Yours and he said something like evangelicals present into the

754
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: world that they are trying to turn us back to traditions.

755
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: But they are usually better than the people around them

756
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: at using the new media of their time. Someone that's

757
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: Billy Graham on the radio, or it's it's on Instagram,

758
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: or it's Phil Cloth, or back when it was you

759
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: know Aki DVDs.

760
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 3: Or it's Amy, Yes, what's her name, Amy's simple mccherson.

761
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: Go listen to that episode y'all with Claire Hoffman. But yeah,

762
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: they're so smart at using the newest media.

763
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: And so this scale will expand.

764
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the newest media while keeping you in the oldest

765
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: timey clothes.

766
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, repackaging oppressive tradition and making it seem shiny and

767
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: new and.

768
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: Exciting, and it's really weird.

769
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 3: Why do you think so many women started talking about

770
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: how abusive this was at the same time.

771
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: Uh, the Internet. Yeah, honestly it was the Internet. Yes,

772
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: it's like what we saw all with me too and

773
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: church too. It was happening years before on these blogs.

774
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: Like for sure, abuse has been happening within churches for generations.

775
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: It happens all sorts of places. But in this case,

776
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: people who left came of age, and many of them

777
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: were just the right age to be a little pissed

778
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: off at their parents and I want to open up,

779
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: and maybe they needed a community or maybe they just

780
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: needed to tell someone what happened to them. And then

781
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: these networks of some people's similar experiences started to pop up,

782
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: and so they saw it. It wasn't just me. It

783
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: wasn't just me who got the ship be out of me,

784
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,479
Speaker 1: because James Dobson said, that's how you're going to save

785
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: my soul. Not just me who is trapped with my

786
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: abusive families, Not just me who wasn't allowed to date.

787
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: So not just me, if he carries so much shame

788
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: around my body. So all these not just means came

789
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: together and then they were able to create a vocabulary

790
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 1: around what happened to them. And that's when they started

791
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: to say this is systemic, Like these laws are not

792
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: just my one pastor in my one church. It's this

793
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 1: narrative that was through all these books that our parents

794
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: were reading. And then they're able to pointing out like

795
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: Christian patriarchy is the problem, purity culture is one of

796
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: the problems. Cover up of abuse is one of these problems.

797
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: And don't I don't know if I don't think people

798
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: would have been able to create those then diagrams without

799
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: each of them stepping up and sharing their stories.

800
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely experienced the like women's Facebook group era,

801
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 2: but you talk about some women who it was blogs,

802
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: it was like what were some of the different formats

803
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: where these women started to share their stories with each other.

804
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: So a big one for the younger folks was homeschoolers anonymous,

805
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: So that it was and like that's super relevant now

806
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: as we see these attacks on public education. But these

807
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: were the kids were raised to be the cultural warriors,

808
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: like their generation was supposed to be the Joshua generation

809
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: and take over the country. And like once they we

810
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: should adulthood answered a question what they had been taught,

811
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: then they were able to start taking through like huh,

812
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: what did you learn of us slavery? Because when I

813
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: learn of US slavery was pretty messed off them. So

814
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: that was one recovering grace is where the allegations against

815
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: bilkgthored bubbled up. And I mean that was initially a

816
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: website where people just talked about a being an ATI kid,

817
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:07,479
Speaker 1: an Advanced Training Institute kid. No one really expected that

818
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: these allegations were going to service, let alone that it

819
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: would have this quality where it was. I saw similar

820
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: one story after another, I think another one which was

821
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 1: bless of you know, a agamation of many voices. Kristaph Brown,

822
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: who was to be a survivor within the Southern Baptist Convention.

823
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: Once she came forward, she started to be overwhelmed by

824
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: a number of other people's stories and SBC would not

825
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: share our internal list, at least within Texas that she

826
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: knew existed.

827
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 4: That's the church network that she.

828
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: Was sorry, the Southern Baptist Convention, So the largest evangelical

829
00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: body in the country, okay, had a list of incredibly

830
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: accused predator pastors within the state of Texas that she

831
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: knew existed, and they would not open up so that

832
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: churches could not so parents could know. So she wrote

833
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: an off ahead saying this isn't right. And then people

834
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: started to email her and call her saying this happened

835
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: to me. And so over the years, as she got

836
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: these stories, she collected publicly available documents and just listed

837
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: them because SBC still has not created the database. Incredibly,

838
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: these pastors, they're members voted for the most comprehensive list

839
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: we have from the internal investigation about Honestly, that's based

840
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: on what Krista Brown spend years of her life compiled.

841
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: Wow.

842
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: And when women like her do come forward and say,

843
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 2: here are all these people who've been abusing women or

844
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 2: girls or children, whatever, what are the patterns in terms

845
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 2: of how some of these organizations respond.

846
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: Uh. Well, Either if it's a single abuse victim, it's

847
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: her fault. If it's a group of survivors or their

848
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: families coming forward, there are a threat to the institution.

849
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: There may be some satanic influence that's driving them. That's

850
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: what they're used. With Christa when she was first coming

851
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: forward with laughed at in a meeting with Baptist leaders

852
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 1: like it's this Isabelle mentality. And I think many of these,

853
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: especially the sexual assault victims, maybe we're teenagers when this happened,

854
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: and somehow that equates with it having been her fault,

855
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 1: so excuse after excuse. There are cases a Jules Woodson

856
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: when she came forward the pastor who had assaulted her

857
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: confessed in front of his church. And there's a pattern

858
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: because when the pastor confesses, so many times are you

859
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: give in a standing ovation? Wow, good for you for confessing. Wow,

860
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: yeah wow, I get this redemption.

861
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: And I would assume many of those same people continue

862
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: to reoffend.

863
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say in the two by two church,

864
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: there's this very kind of way about it where it'll

865
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, that happened to you. We believe, we

866
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 3: completely believe you, but shut up because you're going to

867
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: ruin the one true way from spreading, so like, suck

868
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 3: it up, forgive them they were wrong, You're not lying,

869
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 3: but shut up. And that is equally as say.

870
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that seems like a really common

871
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 2: response or just this idea that like, well, we can't

872
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 2: let the world know what's going on, because we.

873
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 3: Can't tarnish the truth of Gods and the gospel spread. Yeah,

874
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 3: so just like, shut up it happened, set it up,

875
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 3: move it along.

876
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: Right.

877
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 3: There was one girl that was like so abused in

878
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 3: the two by two church. He he like choked her

879
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 3: for so long that she can barely walk now.

880
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 4: Because she got an oxic brain injury.

881
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: Yes, and she has still been called upon to forgive him.

882
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

883
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it doesn't end. There is no point where

884
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 3: the man is beyond forgivable. You're always expected to forgive.

885
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 3: They're always repentable, right.

886
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: I guess when you're when the belief system like tells

887
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 2: you that sins can all be absolved through repentance and

888
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 2: forgiveness and forgiveness, then it doesn't leave room for the

889
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: reality that people who are sexual predators don't just stop

890
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: being sexual predators and need to be kept from doing

891
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 2: that physically prevented from continuing to harm people. I mean

892
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: that those just those ideas just are incompatible. So I

893
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: guess it makes sense if that's your belief system, that

894
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 2: you would think, well, God will just remove that sin

895
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: from him and then he won't do it anymore.

896
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and there is that also.

897
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 3: Sorry, we're just having a little discussion, but yeah, there

898
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: is that also, just like and this life doesn't really

899
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: like matter. It's really short, it's fleeting. It's all about eternity.

900
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 3: So like, just chill out. It's not a big deal. Life.

901
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 4: Heaven's on its ways.

902
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 3: Like just let's keep marching forward for truth in God's

903
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 3: perfect way and.

904
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 4: The end right, ramble over.

905
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: It's not leo like the number of There's a story

906
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: from Sovereign Grace Ministries last year with a mother whose

907
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: child like toddler, was molested by a teenager within the

908
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: church and she was pressured to meet with and for

909
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: him this young man. And I mean, I have a

910
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 1: catalog of horrible stories people have told me, but this

911
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: mother talking about her baby's reaction to seeing him, and

912
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,760
Speaker 1: her scrambling around like hiding under the chair, for pulling

913
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: this kid up, because there's still that part of her

914
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: like she's still really in the church, she still wants

915
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: don't do the right thing. Yeah, this is what I

916
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 1: have to do. And then years later, living with him

917
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: memory and breaking down telling me like I can't believe

918
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: I did this, that she put her kids. Really she

919
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: went through it too that I have pressure to reconcile,

920
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: Like I mean, maybe if you sin, you need to

921
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: see God's forgiveness, But I do not think it is

922
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: appropriate to demand forgiveness anyone, right, let alone a child

923
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: and their mother.

924
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 4: No, that is so sad.

925
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 3: And one of the points that I think you made

926
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 3: really well in this book is just that like a

927
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 3: lot of the people who are abused are not sexually educated,

928
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 3: so they don't even know that they're abused until much

929
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 3: later in life when somebody else is like Bill Gothard

930
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 3: was praying by me, touching my hair and stroking my

931
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 3: shoulder and blah blah blah blah blah and stroking my breast,

932
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 3: and they're like, he did that to me too. I

933
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 3: thought it was like grandfatherly because I didn't even My

934
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: brain wasn't even attuned to that being inappropriate.

935
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: And then suddenly they have a new.

936
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 3: Narrative about what happened to them, and people are like, well,

937
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 3: why didn't you say it sooner?

938
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, yeah, they don't have the vocabulary.

939
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that is intentional, of course,

940
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: like for the young people whose families really beat them

941
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: with felts, or Dell rods or any number of implements,

942
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: because that is how you deal with a quote unquote

943
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: strong will child. When they had to wear long sleeves

944
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: to hide the bruises, and it was for the best

945
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: that they were homeschooled, so you know, there wouldn't be

946
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: a teacher who could report it. And they have these

947
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: childhoods of repeated trauma with the people they love and

948
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: trust the most who are hitting them over and over

949
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: because the parents think that that's what God requires of them. Yes, right,

950
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: And no one knows how to talk about chield abuse

951
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: since that now you get rheta right now that it's

952
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: like drag queen brunches or whatever.

953
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 2: That's what the abuse of children is. Yeah, like a

954
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 2: drag man existing you're a child.

955
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And so to have ongoing perpetual physical right punishment.

956
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: Right, What have you noticed in terms of patterns about like,

957
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 2: and I guess we kind of touched on it a

958
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 2: little bit, but like, what has it taken for many

959
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: of these women to come forward against these communities that

960
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: they've been so much a part of, just like hearing

961
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 2: other women's stories and feeling supported, Like, what are the commonalities.

962
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: I think some of it is finding other people realizing

963
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: this has happened to other peop people. For an alarming number,

964
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: it's witnessing the self harm or suicide of friends who

965
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: had a similar upbreaking, like they know how much they hurt,

966
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: but to see someone you care about gone do to

967
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: all of this, that can be a real motivating force.

968
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: For some it's they're the oldest sister, or they got out,

969
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: but their little sister is still there and their family

970
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: won't talk to them, they're her uncle, whatever. But if

971
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: they can have a place for the kids to land,

972
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: if they can warn not other people. I think mostly

973
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing now, when I'm hearing now is a

974
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 1: lot of people saying I feel like I love the

975
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: cult and all my country has joined it. They're seeing

976
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: the rise of Christian nationalism. They're seeing this draw of figures.

977
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: There's so much like the ones that their parents followed,

978
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 1: and it scares the hell out of them. They know

979
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: what they lost getting out, and they don't want that

980
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: future for our country.

981
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, nor do we?

982
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: Nor do we? Yeah?

983
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 2: I mean what I guess maybe this is a different conversation,

984
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: but do you have any like cliff notes version of

985
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: the way that Christian nationalism is becoming such a mainstream

986
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 2: part of American politics right now.

987
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 4: I mean, I know it's for reaching and widespread.

988
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: I think guilt want just given the recent awareness of

989
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: Doug Wilson and that our Secretary of Defense is part

990
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: of his church network, that he that Hagsath has his

991
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: children in the classical Christian in school, that that layer

992
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: of influence, and then seeing Wilson draw up a church

993
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: plan in Washington, d C. Like he is the inheritor

994
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: of your Bill author James Dobson. So I think seeing

995
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: what's happening with his movement is something to watch. Wilson

996
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: has said himself he used to be fringe. I've heard

997
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: of pullet and TV evangelicles say he used to be

998
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:57,919
Speaker 1: the crazy uncle. Wow. And now he Wilson himself has

999
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: this like the country moved him Wow. He is open

1000
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: about being a Christian nationalist. I wrote a story, if

1001
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: you want, only add a note years ago about the

1002
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: abuse perpetuated within his church and school system for vice.

1003
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: That model is what he's hoping to see nationally. He

1004
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: wants to make his hometown a Christian town, make America

1005
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: Christian nation in this model, and then a Christian world.

1006
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: All that said, his town is still not a Christian

1007
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: town that he's been really his version of Christianity. Well,

1008
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: give it a couple of years, and he's trying, and

1009
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 1: there's a stuff going on with real estate. There's been

1010
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: plenty of attempts, but I think for those who want

1011
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: to resist this a single mode of thought being the

1012
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: motivating factor for us moving forward. There's a small town

1013
01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: called Moscow, oh Idaho that has been resisting Wilson all along.

1014
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: So all is lost, but his type of influence is

1015
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: certainly spreading and is now normalized within are government officials.

1016
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 4: Which is so crazy to me.

1017
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 2: Like, I know that ideas conflicting with other ideas does

1018
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 2: not deter people from still holding them, but this idea

1019
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: that this is like somehow American to do this when

1020
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 2: literally the First Amendment is the freedom of religion.

1021
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 4: The fact that there are.

1022
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 2: So many people and it is now becoming more and

1023
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 2: more mainstream to try to convert America into a theocracy

1024
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: is the most Unamerican thing I can possibly imagine.

1025
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 4: I mean, it's literally not the point of the place.

1026
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 4: So it always terrifies me.

1027
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 2: But I'm glad we are having conversations like these to

1028
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 2: remind people to fight back.

1029
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 4: And I'm also.

1030
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 2: Curious on all of these incredible survivors and warriors that

1031
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 2: you've talked to who have come out against systems that

1032
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 2: are much bigger than them, to varying degrees of success,

1033
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 2: of course, but for a listener who maybe see something

1034
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: happening in their own community that has not been addressed,

1035
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 2: are there any words of wisdom or things you've learned

1036
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: from hearing these stories that you would say to.

1037
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: Them, so icummit and like keep your receipts, it will say.

1038
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 1: Homeschoolers are the most amazing sources a reporter can find

1039
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: because they keep everything. They've been shot everything, And I

1040
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: think a lot of these communities that results from people

1041
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: not believing them. Wow, so they keep their evidence. So like,

1042
01:05:55,040 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: start accumulating your evidence, and then you don't have to

1043
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: go to your pastoral authority that is not your authority.

1044
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: If they are not protecting you or the people you love,

1045
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: that is not your authority, go to the police. If

1046
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't worry, find a reporter or start a website

1047
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: like many many many of these folks shared information anonymously.

1048
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: There is now a means to expoose wrongdoing and I mean,

1049
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: I talk about this a little bit in the book.

1050
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: There's an ecosystem of bloggers work bro watch as we

1051
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: go and watch keep I don't know what they've closed,

1052
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: but they break a lot of these stories. And because

1053
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: they break the stories, then reporters, instead of taking on

1054
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: a liability, which can share a lot of editors off,

1055
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: they can refer to the blog post and say local

1056
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: has recorded online on this blog, and then I get

1057
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: some information out. If your goal is truth telling, there

1058
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: is a way, but like get your evidence squared away,

1059
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: because people will not want to believe you. But there's

1060
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: a tipping point where if you can show what actually

1061
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: has happened, you can get most people there. Yeah.

1062
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 4: Wow, that's really helpful. It's really impractical advice.

1063
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 3: Thank you, Yeah, thank you for this book and all

1064
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 3: of the work you've done. It's so comprehensive, it's so important,

1065
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 3: and it really sheds light on a lot of the

1066
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 3: things that we need to keep working on.

1067
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 2: Indeed, do you have anything else you'd like to add?

1068
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: Is there anything we missed?

1069
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: I feel like be a cover or to be covered

1070
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 1: the book if you want, I can send some links

1071
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: to it's just like magazine and stories. If people want

1072
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: bits and pieces of some of this, that'd be great

1073
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: because it's in years of covering these types of stories.

1074
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: So you can either see in the book or if

1075
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: you just need a quick kind of tutorial, it's out there.

1076
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and can you remind us the name of your

1077
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: book and where people can find it?

1078
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 1: Disobedient Women is it should be everywhere still anywhere you

1079
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,680
Speaker 1: buy books. A few weeks ago bookshop it was I

1080
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: was sold out.

1081
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 4: Wow, amazing.

1082
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, this new awareness of Dougalls and seems to have

1083
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 1: gotten people interested in the book, which is good because

1084
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: it's not just him. I feel like the more we

1085
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: can understand all of this is interconnected, the better. But

1086
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 1: take bookshop, like, go to your indie bookstore.

1087
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 3: Totally can be Follow you on Instagram or online? Is

1088
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 3: there do you share?

1089
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I'm on install, I'm sort of on TikTok Okay,

1090
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: what's your Name's how we follow you? Stay in corb.

1091
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm easy to find. I'm the only one.

1092
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:18,640
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Sarah. It was so nice to

1093
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 4: talk to you.

1094
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: So great talking to you.

1095
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 2: Thanks well, thanks to Sarah for coming on. Indeed, Megan,

1096
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 2: here's the part where I ask you, would you join

1097
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 2: the quiver full movement?

1098
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: Hell? No, I won't even have one kid.

1099
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want kids at all? Oh oh my god.

1100
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 2: Imagine if you thought you had to, I would not

1101
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 2: be okay.

1102
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 3: In fact, I would not do it even if I

1103
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:46,759
Speaker 3: was a part of the movement.

1104
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 2: Do you think, Yeah, if you had that belief system though,

1105
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,799
Speaker 2: and you felt like you thought you had to, I have.

1106
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,679
Speaker 4: A lot of like phobia around it.

1107
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 3: Oh really, I was just in a lot of like

1108
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 3: people giving birth spaces.

1109
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was not. Yeah.

1110
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 3: So and I do want children, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm good. Yeah,

1111
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 3: of course if i'm if my brain is telling me

1112
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 3: that something is right, I'm not like too smart to

1113
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 3: do it or anything. So maybe I would just get

1114
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 3: over it and have a bunch of children. But I'm

1115
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 3: so grateful that wasn't part of my story because.

1116
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 4: Which it feels so adjacent, Like do the two by

1117
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 4: twos believe that?

1118
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 3: No, It's just interesting how the two by twos were

1119
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 3: able to keep some sense of like normality and the

1120
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 3: mix where you know, there there wasn't, as far as

1121
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 3: I know, an encouragement to have a million children.

1122
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 4: I would so assume that that would be the goal.

1123
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, homeschooling really like kind of whip mainstream.

1124
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 2: I actually don't really have a sense of how true

1125
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 2: this is these days. But when I was growing up,

1126
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 2: the joke about Mormons was they had a million children.

1127
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 2: All Mormons had so many kids. Not nearly as many

1128
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 2: as like polygamous Mormons, obviously or mental, but you know,

1129
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 2: that was like the joke in school. Everyone would be like, Oh,

1130
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 2: does your family have seven kids or whatever?

1131
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 4: Right?

1132
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 3: I mean seven kids still as moderate compared to these

1133
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 3: Quaverble movements, where I'd be like, you have seven kids

1134
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 3: and then get your vasectomy and done and have seven more.

1135
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1136
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I don't know.

1137
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 3: I don't want to sound like I'm looking down upon

1138
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 3: it or anything like that, you know what I mean.

1139
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 4: Obviously it's not right or fair.

1140
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be the indoctrination that would appeal to you uniquely,

1141
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 2: not sigh.

1142
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 4: I think that I don't.

1143
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to.

1144
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 2: I'm very very anti patriarchal values, but I do want

1145
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 2: to be a mother, and I think the thing that

1146
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 2: appeals to me, which maybe you can hear, I think

1147
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 2: I say something like this in the interview is the

1148
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 2: idea that, like, well, if people with the wrong ideas

1149
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 2: about the world are having a million children, then to

1150
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 2: combat that, yes, we should also be putting lots of

1151
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 2: children on the earth who can stand for what.

1152
01:11:58,439 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: Is right, you know what I mean.

1153
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 2: Like, I could see myself, yes, falling into that. But

1154
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 2: I also do not want that many kids. I mean,

1155
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 2: I'd like a few kids. Yeah, that seems nice. Yeah,

1156
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 2: I'm good.

1157
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 4: On more than that. Yeah.

1158
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, although that's a households with the huge families bustling around.

1159
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 2: As long as there's enough help and enough money, I

1160
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 2: don't know, it could be fun.

1161
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 3: Who knows, We'll see, who knows exactly. The environment's kind

1162
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 3: of a thing in my mind, but that's fine. Adoption, adoption, adoption.

1163
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1164
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode

1165
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 3: of Trust Me. We cannot wait to see you again

1166
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,839
Speaker 3: next week. Go leave the episode five stars the podcast,

1167
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 3: not the episode, the podcast in general. And uh, you know,

1168
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 3: if you don't want to write a five stars, I

1169
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 3: always say, then.

1170
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: Just don't write it at all.

1171
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,599
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, And as always, remember to follow your gut,

1172
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 3: watch out for red flags.

1173
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 4: And never ever trust me.

1174
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:54,839
Speaker 2: Bang goodbye this has been an Exactly Right production hosted

1175
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:56,360
Speaker 2: by me Lola Blanc and.

1176
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 3: Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee Holli. This

1177
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 3: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our associate producer is

1178
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 3: Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

1179
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert Church.

1180
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark

1181
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 3: and Danielle Kramer.

1182
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:16,799
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1183
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1184
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,480
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1185
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1186
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 2: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1187
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:30,520
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts,