WEBVTT - Can this pandemic make us better people? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.440 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to Next Question. 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.879 As you Next Question listeners know, we've dedicated this podcast 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.520 almost exclusively to covering the coronavirus pandemic as it happened. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.640 But now that we've settled into this strange new reality, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.040 with much of our daily lives put on hold, it's 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.040 time to figure out how we start to get to 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.680 a new normal and find out what that normal even 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.480 looks like, which is why today I'm gearing up for 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.279 something new and really exciting, and I'm bringing along a 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:40.400 friend to help me. Kay, Hi Katie, you know um 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.720 Bosma st. John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose work 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.760 has straddled two worlds, music and pop culture and Silicon Valley. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.840 She transforms and guides big name brands like Pepsi, Apple 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.040 and now Endeavor, where she's chief marketing officer, giving them 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:10.800 purpose and personality, making her very much in demand. Thank you, Eddie. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.839 In two thousand and sixteen, she was the first black 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:18.039 woman to present at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, where she 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.399 managed to rouse the mainly white male audience out of 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.679 their stupor with a giant dance party like this classic 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.160 the Sugarhill Gang. It kind of feels appropriate to get 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.600 this party started with a little bit of rappers alike. Right, 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.240 come on, let's listen to something. Come on, y'all, now 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.680 you recognize me? Right, come on, We're gonna make the 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.920 whole auditorium rock. It was definitely something those Apple execs 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.000 had never seen before, and that's pretty much how Bows 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.000 has excelled her entire career by being her true and 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.760 fabulous self. I lead with my difference. I don't lead 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:58.080 with the commonality. You know that I am holly myself 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.760 in not trying to put on for anyone and still 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.760 try to manage in an environment which was not built 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.920 for me. Bows is someone I've admired and respected for 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.960 quite a while, and I'm super excited to share that 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.160 soon she'll be joining me as my co host for 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.959 a special ten episode series about how we can all 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.639 get back to business biz and Bo's kind of goes together, 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.960 doesn't it. We'll have more on that later, but today 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.400 I just wanted you to get to know her. There's 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.600 a lot I think we can learn from bows Is 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.160 life and career and her thoughts on my next question, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:42.800 Can this pandemic somehow make us better people. She joined 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.240 me over Zoom from her home in l A, which 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.680 she shares with her soon to be eleven year old 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.920 daughter Lael. I'm glad to be here. I am feeling 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.000 really good. Uh this morning, at least, this is one 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:58.040 of the mornings, so I feel really good. Since Bose 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.639 considers herself a bit of an ant apologist a student 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.400 of human behavior, I wanted to get a read on 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.880 what she thought was happening in this moment, a moment 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.280 where we're seeing the best of humanity but also anger 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.000 and resentment taking over the public square with protesters, songs 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:24.840 mass in Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan. You know what it's 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.120 interesting is it reminds me of the stages of grief. 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.080 You know. It's actually what it really reminds me of 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.600 that you know, at the beginning, you are just so 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:38.400 overwhelmingly sad, and you're sort of grabbing onto anything to 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.480 make you feel normal and whole, and you know, you 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.560 just want comfort, right, And I think that's what was 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.400 happening in the beginning, and reaching out to people their facetimes, 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.560 having their Zoom parties. There's like all kinds of things, 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.560 you know, people behaviors that people were exhibiting to UM 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.640 grab onto the familiar, you know, even in the time 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.640 of their of their fear. UM. And then it started 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.600 moving and changing, very much like grief does you know, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.720 as you're going through the feelings of loss, where that 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.400 turns into the anger you know about that? Why? Why 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.320 why has this happened? Why has it happened to me? 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.320 Less about you? Why has this happened to me? You know? 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.080 And and how can I how can I get control 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.040 of this thing? I'm really upset. I want to make 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.360 sure that everybody knows how upset I am about this, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.520 and people take that out in different ways, you know. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.200 And I think there will also come a time, um, 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.679 maybe not that soon, where we will start to see, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.679 you know, after going through the anger, UM will start 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:51.039 to see the new behaviors, you know, people creating new 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.719 ways to cope, which will I have. I'm very you know, 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.920 optimistic in that that we will find that people, um 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.320 will let go of the aleanna ish you know behavior 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.760 that first came in the first wave, you know, of 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.200 the like kumbaya, everybody hold hands. I will never be 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.120 mean again in life, you know that thought and will 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.120 move through the anger and the you know, distracted conversation 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.880 around why me and then taking it out on other people, 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.760 and we will move into a new way of being, 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.479 you know, a new way of living that will be 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.880 much healthier for us. But that also takes awareness, you know, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.480 it takes awareness, and it takes an acceptance of the 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.599 loss of the way things were, the loss of innocence, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.520 you know, about our world and how we behave, and 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.960 it will require people to realize that that's not coming back. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.159 You know, that new normal is not coming back. I'm 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.440 sure for you as and for me um. You know, 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.920 having gone through grief, there is that moment where you, oh, man, 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.719 it's a hard moment. But the realization that nothing will 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.520 be what it was, you know, this idea that you're 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.240 going back to normal actually doesn't exist. And so thinking 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.680 about that and figuring out, well, how then do I 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.280 recreate my life, how do I cope? How do I 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:16.520 move forward? Becomes then your own sort of healing process, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.320 you know, and then when you actually figure it out, 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.840 that's when you actually start to feel better. You truly 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.520 feel better. It's not again the happy, go lucky thing, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.360 it's it's actually much deeper. It feels deeper. And so 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.640 that's what I'm hopeful for. You know that our communities 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.640 and our people in our lives, even myself, you know 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.559 that we get to that place where it's like, Okay, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.400 here's the reality, uh, and how do I manage my 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.960 life now from now on? And this is when I 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.200 think those leadership is so important to have some kind 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:50.760 of north star, somebody who is bringing the country together. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.320 And sadly, I just think the current leadership, I think 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.360 President Trump is is really kind of using this too 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.680 for there divide us, which is incredibly upsetting to me 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.839 because when someone asked him about what would you Peter Alexander, 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:09.640 who I used to work with at NBC, what would 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:11.880 you say to people who are afraid? What do you 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.080 say to Americans who are watching you right now who 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.320 are scared? I say that you're a terrible reporter, That's 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.360 what I say. I think it's a very nasty question, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.480 and I think it's a very bad signal that you're 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.680 putting out to the American that was such a moment 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.440 for him to be a unifying force, for him to 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:33.240 say this is scary. It's scary for everyone, and this 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.600 is what we need to do instead of b rating, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:42.160 taking that opportunity to brate the press. And I think 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:47.080 that words are really important now. And whether it's George W. 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.600 Bush after nine eleven or President Obama after Sandy Hook 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.600 or FDR during you know, you have nothing, we have 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.600 nothing to fear but fear itself. You know, those are 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.520 the moments that are the rallying cry for people too, 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:08.200 I think want to aspire to better and to to 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.640 think about the common good. And I think there's been 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:16.360 such a vacuum their bows. It's heartbreaking to me, man, 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.920 I feel overwhelmed even by that, to be honest, But 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.880 there happened leaders emerging bows like you know Andrew Cuomo 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:29.120 and I think Gavin Knewso the Republican governor of Maryland. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.880 There there have been these beacons I think of intelligence, 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:42.720 of calm, of inspiration, of creativity that I think have emerged. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.959 Don't use yes, absolutely absolutely, and it it really actually 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.440 just drives back to a theory that I've had actually 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.599 for quite some time around leadership UM and the evolution 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:59.280 of what leadership looks like in this country but really 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.800 all around the world world. You know, in that UM 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.960 for either in business or in politics, probably politics less 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.080 because you know, we're used to seeing the candidate, although 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.720 the candidate or the elected official still feels very much 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.839 like there's a veneer there right that we can't penetrate, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.240 or has felt like that for a long time, and 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.640 in business very much the same. In that CEOs or 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.960 anyone in the c suite, feels like everything is always scripted, right, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:26.320 you have to say it the right way, you have 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.120 to say it in the right cadence um or sometimes 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.800 those people are not known, right, and all you have 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.880 is the brick and mortar building of the brand for 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.920 people to attach with that has completely evaporated, right. I 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.360 feel like over the last twenty years or so, it's 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:50.680 slowly been coming down, but this moment has erase the 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.240 rest of it. You know, I thought it would take 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.200 us another five or ten years to get to the 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.200 place where we needed full transparency. Will days upon us 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.080 or right now? You know, people want to see the humans. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.800 You don't care about perfection. I have tried to say 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.960 that again and again and again to every leader that 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.520 you don't have to be perfect. The script doesn't have 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.000 to be perfect. You know, you can use sometimes the 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.640 wrong words because we're all trying to figure this out, 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.480 you know, and right now. One of the ways that 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.040 I've been talking about about this um you know, in 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.360 my work, I'm the chief marketing officer of Endeavor, and 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.280 one of the biggest strategic insights has come out of 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:34.040 this time is that we want brands to be companions 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.840 to our consumers, right into our audiences. This is not 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.840 necessarily about service. This is not about standing up on 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.200 top of the hill and you know, screaming down on 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.760 the people that you know better that they should come 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.800 to you because you have the perfect solution for whatever 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.760 thing in their lives. This is not that time. People 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.240 want companionship, you know, they want you to sit next 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.120 to them and tell them that you're hurting too, you know, 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.480 and that you are hurting. But here's what I have 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.040 found to help make me better. Maybe you can try it. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.800 That's what they want to hear. And that that cuts 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.439 across everything. That's not just businesses, that's politics. So you're 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.760 right that moment with President Trump, it wouldn't have mattered, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.200 you know that what his political leanings are, I wouldn't 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.720 have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if he had answered 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.800 and said, you know, yeah, we're all scared I'm scared. 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.040 I'm scared for the health of my family. I'm scared 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:30.520 for the health of myself, by the way, and I'm 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.320 trying to figure out what the best thing is to 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:36.920 do so that we can all stay safe. I believe 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.000 everyone would have felt better, and he probably would have 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.160 won some points. I think so too. I think so too. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.959 I think, uh, that just was such a lost opportunity. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:52.560 But if someone doesn't feel that in their heart, you know, um, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.840 you can't. You can't even script that, right, So you can't, 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.000 you can't. But I think you're right. I mean, I 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.120 think that word off senticity has been so overused at 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.560 this point, you know, it's become kind of a buzzword. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:09.400 But but I think people are are looking for true 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:15.640 human emotion. Why are people looking to brands two for comfort? 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.720 I mean, you just I don't think people ever kind 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.040 of even yearned for that relationship with brands. And I 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.760 think that's such an interesting development in our culture. What 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.640 do you think lead to that those comfort has always existed, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.120 you know, as a way for brands to communicate with 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.240 our audiences and their consumers. They probably just didn't say 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.880 it that way, you know, And and comfort showed up 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.600 in in many different ways. Yeah, I worked for PepsiCo 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.600 for a long time on their soda businesses, and at 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.000 that time, you know, the the idea was to bring joy, right, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.480 just pure joy in in five minutes or less. And 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.960 that is some sort of comfort, right, um. But today 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.800 the come furt is in making me feel safe. It's 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.880 in making me feel like I can be just be, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.240 not necessarily achieved, just be you know, a k. It 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:17.319 should feel like, um, information that is safe and reliable. 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.440 You know, that kind of comfort is what people are 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:26.960 truly looking for. And even the comfort of letting go, 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:34.520 you know, the comfort in not being bound by any 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.600 expectations that had been set for us before letting go 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.120 is a real comfort that people feel like they need 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.520 permission to do. And so if brands would communicate that 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.360 through their products and services, I think they would find 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.800 more loyalty in this very moment. And sometimes especially in 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.280 times like this, you know, everybody feels like the responsibility 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.400 to sort of, you know, do something. You know, it's 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.400 like I've got to do something otherwise I'm doing nothing, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.280 or or I need to help my community otherwise I'm 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.280 doing nothing. I need a fundraise to help the health 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.959 care workers, or I'm doing nothing, you know, And I 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.760 constantly try to remind people that that's that's wonderful, that's 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.080 great if you are able to do that, you know, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.760 but that's really taking stock. If you are able to 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.200 do that, always take the focus group of one. You know, 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.600 what am I feeling like? Do I have the bandwidth 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.160 to do that? Because if you don't and you fall, 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.440 then we have then we have a problem. You know, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.240 if you're standing and you're well, and you're healthy, and 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.680 you're stable and mentally ready to help your community and 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.600 you know, go out and help your neighbor, or do 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.600 whatever other thing you would achieve more, learn a new language, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.720 like do all the things that are expected, you know, 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.160 these high expectations of us, then great, do that. But 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.960 if you're not able to do that, having the permission 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:05.120 to simply be is really important. And so I've been 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.960 counseling brands and you know, leaders within those brands to 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:15.840 think about how they can be better comforters to their audiences, 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.040 to their employees, uh and even to their own families. 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.360 Because once we can see that you are human and 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.360 that you're feeling this too, that you're not above all 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.800 of this craziness that's going on, then more people can 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.480 identify with you as a human being. And that's all 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.400 we want. We want our human connection. That's it. There's 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:43.560 nothing more more with bozemas St. John after the short break. 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.600 Bozeman's St. John is hugely successful. But you know you've 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.520 really made it when your career is the subject of 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.920 a Harvard Business School lass, and hers was this past semester. 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.200 I first heard that they wanted to do it, and 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.200 I thought for a second, like, wow, well does that 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.200 mean I should do I retire now? Like what happens exactly, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.440 or or somebody trying to tell me something, you know, 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.640 like okay, your your career is done, now go and 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:18.520 do something else. You know. That's what it feels like. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.680 It feels like the type of thing that happens when 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.200 somebody feels like you've crested. Uh. And so it was. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.720 It was actually really weird to feel, um that what 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:32.360 I had done was quite frankly worthy of a class 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:37.120 um and also overwhelming, and that that choices that I've made, 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.880 you know, different experiences that I've had within my career 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.960 that other people would be studying, you know, and and 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.560 either having great things to say about it, or maybe 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.280 arguing about it. You know, that felt very It felt 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.360 like it was something again like outside of my control. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.080 You know. It's like these personal decisions that I've made 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.640 over the course of time. Now we're open to being judged, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.679 you know, by other people, which is funny because I 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.920 do live a public life. I you know, I'm sure 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.040 there are lots of people who have opinions about moves 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.080 I've made or campaigns I've run. But to think that 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.800 it would be an academic pursuit is something totally different. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.800 And I have to thank Francis fry Um, who is 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.040 the professor who led the class. Um. She she and 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.879 I actually met at uber so she had been brought 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:35.800 into essentially help management be better. You know. So at 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.160 the time I joined UM, there was quite a bit 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.520 of upheaval. That's probably a light I was going to say, 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.600 to put it mildly, Yes, yes, upheaval in the management team. 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.919 And she is a extraordinary uh professor in there in 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.040 the Harvard Business School, and so she knows academically how 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.600 to um advise and not just advice, but also set 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.359 up an organization of managers. And so she was brought 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.600 in to do that, um, And so it was it 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.520 was just quite wonderful actually that we both ended up 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.480 at UBER at the same time. And so when she 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.159 upon her leaving, she just said that not only was 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:20.160 she interested and impressed by the career I've had so far, UM, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.400 but in leading with difference, you know that I lead 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.119 with my difference. I don't lead with the commonality. You 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.160 know that I am wholly myself in in all those situations, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.359 and that it was fascinating to see her or to 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:38.160 see me behave just as myself, not trying to put 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.199 on airs for anyone and still try to manage in 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.400 an environment which was not built for me. And so 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.199 the thesis of her class was about leading with difference 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.879 on how to do that. That's fascinating, and leading with 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:56.800 difference means, I guess, as if I gathered correctly what 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:02.040 you were just saying, leading from your pure authentic point 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.480 of view. But what else does leading with difference mean? 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.239 Bows Yeah, leading with difference means that you don't do 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.960 it the textbook away. You know that you are doing 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.240 it your own way, and that is a that is 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.640 something that I wish every leader would do. You know that, um, 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.640 you will use the word authenticity, which you're right, it's overused, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.040 but it is there's nothing else that can replace it. 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.200 You know that you don't have to be a black 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:34.800 woman who is from Caldo Springs, Colorado by way of Ghana, 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.360 UM to be different. You know that that even the 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:44.160 stereotypes of what we have seen as leadership in corporate America, 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.159 UM that if we just looked a little below, you know, 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.720 under the cover a little bit, there'd be something there. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.119 You know that is that each of them have that 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.160 are different from the other, but that we are not 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.119 and I'm using the air quotes, you know, allowed to 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.359 show our difference when we are leaders, that there is 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.080 some model that we're supposed to be living up to. 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.080 You know that you can't show up on Instagram in 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:13.000 a bikini as a executive woman because somehow that's not 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.720 the image that people expect of your Yeah. Um, And 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.280 I'm not necessarily saying that you should go to the 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.720 office and your bikini. I'm just saying right right, Well, 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.920 I I've noticed throughout my career that that I think 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:31.280 people have a hard time dealing with multi dimentionality, if 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:37.679 that's a word, someone who is many things, because we 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.480 all are, but I think that we all wear a 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.960 mask for our certain roles and behave a certain way 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:52.080 that conforms with previously held views of what said role 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.280 was supposed to be. Like if that makes sense. You know, 0:20:55.320 --> 0:21:00.640 and I've seen I've I had challenges in that department 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.879 throughout my career. You know, that you couldn't be funny 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.560 and laugh and have a good time but also when necessary, 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.720 be deadly serious. That somehow, if you exhibited this other 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.520 side of you, or if you you know, went on 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.359 Instagram in a bikini or did something kind of funny 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:22.240 and silly, that that that meant that you didn't it 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.159 took away from this other side of you, or it 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:30.399 delegitimized another side of you, which I find fascinating. And 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.399 I think that's what you're saying, that that there have 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.320 been these archetypes that we've had to adhere to for 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.639 various roles because partially, Bose, I think it's because of 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:49.040 the images that we've seen of the people occupying those roles. Yes, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.000 that's right, that's right. But one of the reasons that 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.000 I love you is the fan love like love love, 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:59.560 is that you have been able to balance both of 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.480 those sides in a way that I haven't seen many 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:04.120 people in the public eye to be able to do. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.720 You know, I've tried, but I don't think I've always 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:12.119 been successful. You know. I think that there have been people, 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:18.280 because they have certain expectations of how someone looks or 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:23.359 acts or is in a certain role, that they reject 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.320 you if in fact they've seen too much of the 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:30.040 other side. So I appreciate that that you think that, 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:34.040 but I think it's been challenging for me throughout my career. 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.080 But I think what I hear you saying, bows is 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.640 that people need to embrace that and use it as 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:48.160 an asset and be transparent about the many sides of themselves. Exactly, absolutely, 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.480 Because even in that, Katie, you know, even in your 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.640 ability to be funny and silly and then also deliver 0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:00.320 important information that we should take seriously, you have, I've 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.840 created a dimension that we didn't see before. And if 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.439 there are difficulties and challenges and criticisms and all of 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:14.200 the things, I my desire is that more of us 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.440 would show those things, you know, more of us would 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.239 be more would be transparent about that, more of us 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:24.040 would say damn it, Okay, all right, let me figure 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:26.480 this out because I didn't. I didn't get that right. 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:28.880 You know that if we actually said that, we would 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:32.560 find that there would be so much more. Um, loyalty 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:34.400 is the wrong word, but it's only one I can 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.479 think of. But it's like a loyalty to ourselves. You 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.560 know that that people would also see that. You know 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.679 that if if we if we lead with difference in 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.119 that way, you know that we lead with the truest 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.359 form of ourselves that is very different from what is 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:56.480 supposed to be, people will actually allow us to be, 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.600 which is such a revolutionary idea. When it comes to leadership, 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:03.840 you know, and again, it doesn't matter what kind of leadership. 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:05.760 It can be political, it could be business, it could 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.399 be on the airwaves, it can be anywhere. And that 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.840 if you are out in front and that people can 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:13.119 see you and people are looking to you. For the example, 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.480 we don't need perfection. We don't even need perfection in 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:22.919 the multidimensionality. You said that's the word, right, Um that 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.640 you know it's it's like, Okay, I'm a fun person. 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.399 Well do I need to be perfectly fun? I'm a 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:32.440 serious person. Also, do I need to be perfectly serious? 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.800 It's like, no, The answer is no, there are faults 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:37.880 in there and that's okay. And I think right now, 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:40.679 in this very moment, it is where we need to 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:45.280 be braver about showing those parts that are not perfect, 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:52.679 even in our multidimensionality, that those imperfections, those mistakes, those 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:56.000 learnings are all part of this and that is okay, 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.480 and that people will actually accept us if we actually 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:04.400 showed the truest sense of ourselves. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Um, 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:09.360 but are there people Bowse that you've seen exhibit exceptional 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:13.600 leadership during this this time that you look to Because 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:17.040 people are brands in a way, right, and they're all 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:22.640 I think, giving showing us sort of how to navigate this. 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.800 They're giving us something to look up to. And I'm 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:30.439 just curious, in all your dealings talking to people, have 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.800 you seen people and you think, yeah, yeah, they're doing 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:38.679 this right. Yes, certainly. Like you said, I'm an anthropologist 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:42.639 of sorts and so, um, I definitely study people and 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:46.119 I love to see how they behave and how they behave, 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.480 especially in this time. And um, you already mentioned one 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:54.040 who I think you know was a surprise but came out, Um, 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:57.359 you know, really wonderfully Governor Cuomo. You know, I just 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.640 think has been phenomenal in this time. Um. And why 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:03.480 do you think that? I mean, I'd love to hear 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:08.679 specifically what you've seen. I think his communication style is exceptional, 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:14.359 you know, in that he delivers information clearly, succinctly, um, 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.160 without frill and so and I'm I'm not sure if 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.480 that's a choice or is just the way that he is. 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.639 Maybe it's the way he is just regularly in his 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:26.679 day to day dealings. UM. But he doesn't add sugar, 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:29.600 you know, he doesn't try to spin. He just says 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:34.479 what it is. And sometimes it can feel very direct 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:38.360 and maybe short, but I actually think it it's working. 0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:40.720 You know, it works because people don't want to hear 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:44.719 the extras the This is the amazing thing. Also just 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:49.200 a little segue, which is that sometimes I think as leaders, 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:52.879 we feel the need to be everything. You know that 0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.119 that you have to be the comforter and also the 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.440 one who you know, gives the straight talk about all 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:02.760 the things. And in some in some cases, especially in this, 0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:06.240 you know, delivering the information, you can just do it 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.200 in a way that allows people to understand what you're saying, 0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:11.760 and that's it. You know, you can just choose to 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:15.200 do that. And that's what he's doing. When you listen 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:19.960 to his his conferences. Uh, he is very to the point, 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:27.399 you know. And I especially loved his reaction when uh, 0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.639 you know, his his brother, um, and I believe his 0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:35.399 sister in law also contracted the virus um in that 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:39.400 he at that moment was the big brother. And that's 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:44.399 what we saw when he told me he had the coronavirus. Uh, 0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:51.600 it scared me. It frightened me. Why because we still 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:56.760 don't know. Um, we still don't know. And even if 0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:03.800 there's just the one two percent chance, it's frightening. It 0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:08.080 is frightened and frightened me. Uh. And I deal with 0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:11.560 all sorts of stuff, and I've seen all sorts of things, 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:17.439 and it frightened me. Why because we're talking about my 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.719 my brother, talking about my little brother. This is my 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.520 best friend. You know, he wasn't just the governor but 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:29.880 some somebody's big brother. He had some sharp criticisms about 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:33.000 what his brother was doing. And I had a situation 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:38.320 with Christopher two weeks ago that I even mentioned my 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:43.320 mother was at his house, and I said, that is 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:47.120 a mistake. Now my mother is in a different situation, 0:28:47.640 --> 0:28:49.960 and I just thought it was brilliant. I'm the eldest 0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:53.280 of four girls, you know, in that moment, I identified 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:57.720 with him, you know, essentially chastising his younger, younger brother 0:28:58.240 --> 0:29:01.800 on TV. It is brilliant. Great again, perhaps that's just 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:03.680 the way he is, but I thought it was so 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:08.920 wonderfully human to see that. Um it's it's interesting there. 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:11.080 So there there are quite a few people. I think 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.200 there are some innovators also who have come up, like 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:16.360 in pop culture that I think are so fascinating. Um. 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:18.640 You know, I have talked a little bit about my 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:24.360 good friend Derek DJ d Nice, who has emerged as 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:28.120 a leader in music and bringing comfort to people from 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:31.320 his apartment here in in in l a uh in 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:36.840 that he has really brought together people using the tools 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:40.600 that he always uses his turntables, right, he plays good music. 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:42.920 And I remember the first night that he was going 0:29:42.960 --> 0:29:45.200 to go on and just play music. You know, he 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:47.560 was just like he just needed something to do, you know, 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.000 he just wanted to keep the sort of the energy 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:52.200 going and energy flowing, It's what he said. And he 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:54.239 was like, just come on the live I'm gonna go 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:56.440 on there. You know, I play for you know, for 0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:58.800 as long as I feel like it. And I think 0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:03.280 that first that he played for five hours Welcome Back, 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:10.920 there might have been five people in there. You know, 0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:13.160 we were all in the comments going back and forth. 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:15.000 Then he was like, you know what, I think I'm 0:30:15.000 --> 0:30:17.280 gonna do it again. Tell your friends. And the next 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.480 day it was like two thousand people. The third night 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:22.920 it was ten thousand people, and it's like, holy where 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.400 did all these people come from? You know, it was crazy. 0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:29.320 And then at his peak, he crested just over a 0:30:29.400 --> 0:30:32.920 hundred thousand people to point where it like crashed Instagram. 0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:35.880 They needed to figure out new ways of bandwidth. I mean, 0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:38.760 it was insane, you know. And now it's like he's 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:43.080 doing these partnerships with Michelle Obama on voting. You know, 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.600 I saw him on some morning shows. Um I think 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:49.520 he got you know, he's doing some merchandise with Will Smith. 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:51.920 It was just it's just the wildest thing. But to 0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:56.400 think that someone who is taking his platform, which he 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.600 was simply doing what he always does, you know, which 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:02.720 he us to do. By the way, he DJ my 0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:07.320 DJ my forty birthday party. And I was, you know, 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:10.400 trying my best not to sweat out my my hair 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:15.160 and makeup and it was destroyed that night. So from 0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:17.760 personal experience, I can tell you he's he's really really great. 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:21.840 But I just find that his leadership, even in this 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:26.320 moment of just bringing people, um, the gift that he 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:32.520 has and connecting people is remarkable. Um, it's a It's remarkable, 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:37.840 you know that that anyone in this time can essentially 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.960 take up the ban of leadership and do it in 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:46.040 a way that is relevant, it is timely, and it 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:49.120 is authentic to the word that we've used. You know, 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:52.720 they're simply using the tools that they've already have. This 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:55.680 is not about you know, learning French all of a sudden, 0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:58.040 you know, or learning how to play a new instrument, 0:31:58.240 --> 0:31:59.960 although I've seen you play the piano, and I really 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:01.680 want to know how to play the piano. But that's 0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:05.680 a whole another conversation. But you know what I mean 0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:08.240 that like this, this is the moment that I've seen 0:32:08.440 --> 0:32:12.840 leaders just become more of who they are and an 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:16.440 a on a larger platform, and that is remarkably wonderful. 0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:20.320 That's so interesting, you know, both because I had I've 0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:25.840 been making contributions to a lot of organizations and um, 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:28.840 and yet I feel and I've been sort of visiting 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:32.880 an elderly gentleman I met at the drug store last 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:35.840 summer because he lives by himself, to to to make 0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:38.920 sure he's okay. But I said to my friend the 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:41.800 other day, I really want to get out there and 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.200 do more. And you know, you don't have to to 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:51.280 wait for other organizations to do something great. I mean, 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:53.840 I think the fact that everyone has a platform now 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:57.560 there really aren't the gatekeepers that were once there. And 0:32:57.680 --> 0:33:00.720 one of the great things is you can you can 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:06.280 do uh, you can do something amazing just yourself, you know, 0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:09.720 whether it's rallying your community, because I think a lot 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.760 of people the need is so great and there's so 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:16.440 many people who need help. That can be overwhelming to 0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:20.120 like where do I give, even if it's ten dollars 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:23.480 or twenty dollars or five dollars or a thousand dollars, 0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:27.840 whatever you can do, And sometimes you can just say, hey, 0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:31.560 there's this need in my community. Let's all get together 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:35.800 and let's all do something for the people in our town, 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:38.760 you know, or let's all start a fund for all 0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:42.760 the grocery store workers that are putting themselves at risk 0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:46.960 every day. Um, you know I think that still, we 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.960 sometimes wait for something bigger to tell us what to do, 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:56.040 to instruct us where we can actually just do it ourselves. Yes, 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.320 that's exactly right. And um, you know it's so interesting. 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:07.000 I have recently begun to run outside. Uh six months ago. 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:10.320 You could not have made me run for a mile 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:12.120 or more. There's no way. I mean, I'm like, am 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:14.719 i am I running from a bear? Okay, but just 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:17.560 like running for fun? I don't think so. Um, but 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:22.120 I started to run in my neighborhood. Um, usually very early, 0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:24.959 you know, it's like literally around dawn or so, and 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.000 no one is no one is awake. But it feels 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:30.560 fresh and it feels rejuvenating to me. And I don't 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:33.800 know who this person is. I'm assuming it's a child. Um, 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:37.160 but they've written messages on the sidewalk, you know, like 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:40.160 these just little positive messages and you know sometimes the 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:44.120 ray bows and keep going and one more step and 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:47.480 I just I literally, I mean I was so emotional 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.040 the first of my side. I literally cried, you know, 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:53.360 like stopped on the sidewalk and cried and I just thought, wow, 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:55.759 like that is such a wonderful thing. You know that 0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:59.160 right now we all have that the ability to create 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:02.440 in this moment, and but I do want a caveat 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:04.719 and saying that, you know, this is very much like 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.319 every other scenario, which is that if you are not well, 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.520 you can't help other people be well, you know, And 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.120 so we do have to pay attention to ourselves and 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:15.600 make sure that we're also not over extending. And that's 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:18.600 not just you know, for us sort of in the community, 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:21.799 that's for the leadership too. And that's like leaders like 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:26.960 are you peaceful? Are you saying are you feeling healthy? 0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:30.800 Not just physically but emotionally, you know, before you take 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.040 on the added things. And by the way, I think, 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.759 how amazing would it be if if any one of 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:39.000 our leaders said that they were really having a hard 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:43.520 time emotionally, you know, right now, and they would use 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:48.520 themselves as the example on how to even engage on wellness. 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:50.920 Like that's that's the next thing I'm waiting for, you know, 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:53.160 who's going to do? I do? I do feel like 0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:57.160 you're starting to see those walls kind of start to 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:02.360 come tumbling down, if not with leaders, but with celebrities 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:09.160 or personalities who are being incredibly transparent about their emotional state, 0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:12.960 and I think you're gonna you're going to see that more. 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:16.279 I think, you know, it gets tricky because it's such 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:19.280 a thin line, our fine line, I think bows between 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:25.360 doing something out of a place of honesty and transparency 0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.879 and doing something out of a place of uh of 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.919 where there might be ulterior motives, right, And I think 0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:38.440 people can sniff that out so quickly. And you know, 0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.560 I think it's all about when you're talking about greenwashing. 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:45.200 You know, companies that care about environmental sustainability, do they 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:49.000 really care about environmental sustainability or are they doing that 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:53.000 because they think they should care about environmental sustainability. And 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:56.040 I think that's that's such a tricky thing because I 0:36:56.080 --> 0:37:00.680 think with the world being flat in terms of social media, 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:06.239 people can can I think, become very cynical. Right, So 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:08.840 I think you have all these different forces that work, 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:12.319 so you have to I'm sure you consider that when 0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:16.080 you're talking to brands, like what is their true north? Then? 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:19.520 Is it? Is it true? Or is it is it 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:24.520 a way to manipulate consumers into seeing things their way? Right? 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.720 I mean that must be tricky. Yes, that is very tricky. 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:30.640 It is probably the trickiest you know, because there's this 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:33.480 belief that you can't switch lanes or you can't switch 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.520 gears because people would think that we're being fake, you know, 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:39.640 And the council that I give constantly is that, what 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.759 what what is your reason for doing it? You know, 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:47.160 if it if it is not authentic, you know, if 0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:49.800 it's not true, then yeah, of course you're doing the 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:53.279 wrong thing. Okay, it's like it's really that simple, you know. 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:55.280 But if you are doing it for the right reasons, 0:37:55.320 --> 0:37:58.600 if you had a you know, sudden, like you know, 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:04.200 ootional reaction to the ways that maybe your business is 0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:07.040 dealing with this very moment in time, and you decided 0:38:07.080 --> 0:38:08.960 that you wanted to send out a different message, you 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:11.799 wanted to create something new, you know, maybe you want 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:15.280 to shut down a plant and makes a hand sanitizer instead. 0:38:15.880 --> 0:38:19.840 Then do that, you know, do that, and it's almost like, 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:22.319 you know, forget what the critics say, you know, don't 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:25.000 worry about how people are going to interpret it. But 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:27.799 are you going to sleep better at night? You know, 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.440 are you going to feel like you contributed that you 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.040 did all that you could do right now? If you do, 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:36.400 then great, do that. Please don't worry about what everybody 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:38.960 else is going to say, you know, we'll all have critics, 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:41.000 all of us. All of us have critics one way 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.640 or another, you know. But if you really feel like 0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:46.520 you're doing the right thing with the right information that 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:48.920 you have at this moment, and you can make a 0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:50.680 difference and you feel like you should you can do 0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:52.960 that with your company, then please do it, you know, 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:55.240 And that is that is what I counsel all the time. 0:38:55.719 --> 0:38:59.800 And other words, don't overthink it, don't overthink it. Please, yes, act, 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:06.200 just do it. When we come back, Bozeman and I 0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:18.600 share a certain bond you'll find out after this. Now 0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:22.600 back to my conversation with Bozma. Saint John Bose, you've 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:26.080 had such an interesting career and you're only forty three 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:31.480 years old, and give us your quick cv UM in 0:39:31.640 --> 0:39:36.520 terms of I know you went to to Wesleyan, you 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:41.160 grew up in Colorado Springs. Your family, your parents are 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:47.160 both from Ghana and UM, and you've always loved popular culture. 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:51.120 So take it from there. Yeah, okay, So graduating from Wesleyan, 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:54.400 I moved to New York City. UM got a job 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:58.840 as Spike Lee's assistant at his advertising agency, which is 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:00.960 called Spike d D Bus a joint venture with d 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:03.680 dB Needham, which is the one of the large advertising 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:06.719 agencies in Madison Avenue, and I fell in love, you know, 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.359 with advertising and marketing. I was supposed to go into 0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:13.160 med school, but um that pop culture thing, it's a bug, 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.360 you know. It got under my skin and into my 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:17.640 heart and out of my pores, and I couldn't get 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:20.440 rid of it. So there you go. I UM I 0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:23.359 began working there, I guess as an assistant and then 0:40:24.000 --> 0:40:26.799 quickly graduated to being a coordinator. And by the time 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:29.840 I left there four years later, UM I was helping 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:33.800 to win the big accounts like the Pepsi, which actually 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:36.800 became the next job that I did. Went to Pepsi 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:39.720 and ran um a few of the brands for about 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:44.319 a decade, including Pepsi and Mountain Dew and Aquafina. There 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:46.720 was a flavor splash and there for a quick moment. 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:52.720 It's defunct now not my fault. But had a really 0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:55.480 great time at Pepsi and and it's actually where I 0:40:55.480 --> 0:41:01.120 I believe the the inflection point came for me, uh 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:04.040 and in my marketing career, because I realized that the 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.520 convergence of what I loved about pop culture and what 0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:11.279 could happen from a business standpoint really converged, and so 0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:14.320 I began a group, a new group within the marketing 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:18.400 organization at PEPSI called the Music Entertainment Division that I 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:20.719 ran for a number of years and it it UM 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:24.719 all sort was responsible for partnerships with the NFL and 0:41:24.960 --> 0:41:27.640 you know, a bunch of other big leagues and big 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:33.040 entertainment platforms. But one of the most notable partnerships that 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.960 I did at that time was with Beyonce for her 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:43.759 Super Bowl hattime ship performance. That it um and it 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:46.240 was a really wonderful moment because it was the first 0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:48.799 time a black woman had been on that stage in 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:54.600 a decade since Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, and m that 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:58.880 was very, very hard fought and I felt extraordinarily proud, 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:02.160 you know, of the moment and that Beyonce really just 0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:05.600 I mean, that woman took over the stage and there 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:09.600 was no denying, you know, that someone like her could 0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:13.960 entertain a very large audience. But in any case, that 0:42:14.120 --> 0:42:17.759 that inspired me um to just continue on the path 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:21.480 of pop culture and finding the convergence. But um, as 0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:25.920 as with many people, you know, sometimes life gets in 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:31.480 into your grand plans. UM. And about eight months after 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:36.920 you know that performance with Beyonce, my husband's UM cancer 0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:42.520 had been diagnosed as terminal and I had to focus, 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:46.799 you know, all my energy on his survival UM. But 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:50.239 unfortunately he did not survive his cancer, and when he 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.279 passed away a couple of months later, it was a 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:56.439 you know, reflection point for me to try and figure 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:58.360 out what I really want to do. You know, I 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:00.840 had a four year old and did to continue to 0:43:00.920 --> 0:43:03.560 support and life that I needed to get back to 0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:08.880 UM and also an unapologetic love of my work, you 0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:10.759 know that UM. I really wanted to get back to 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:12.879 it something that made me feel good, and I took 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:16.000 a really big chance at the time, which now in 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:18.480 retrospect maybe doesn't look like a big chance, but as 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.640 sure as hell was. I left PEPSI after the decade 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:26.360 and moved from New York to California, where I joined 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:30.319 Jimmy Ivan and Dr Dre as they were launching a 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:34.120 new division of their company, Beats by Dre. They started 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.200 Beats Music, which was a music streaming service, and I 0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:41.160 had no idea what the hell I was doing, but 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:44.040 but it sounded good, you know, It's like something something 0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:48.400 big and UH exciting and something to figure out, you know, 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:51.160 that could pour all my energy into. And a few 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:54.360 months after I joined the company, UM, we worked to 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:57.839 be acquired by Apple. Uh. And then I threw all 0:43:57.840 --> 0:44:02.120 of my energy into UM sunsetting Beats music and building 0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:06.800 Apple Music, which then I did for another few years. UH. 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:10.040 And then another inflection point, you know, being in tech 0:44:10.640 --> 0:44:14.680 and being a black woman in tech had sparked something. 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:18.799 You know, there was interest in what leadership could look 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:23.439 like for somebody quote unquote different in that space. And 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:26.240 there's a lot of questions around how I could connect 0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:31.520 with tech audiences, especially following my Apple dubbed d C 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:37.480 performance where I UM showed the world the new interface 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:39.840 of Apple Music. And there was a lot of I 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:43.439 think speculation before that about whether or not someone who 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:46.800 was not Steve Jobs, someone who you know, it was 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:49.440 not a white man wearing jeans and a button down 0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:52.279 shirt or a black turtleneck, if they could connect to 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:55.640 a wide audience that's a tech based audience. And we 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.319 prove that that is true. UM. And so in the 0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:01.640 middle of that, I met Vis Kalinik, who is the 0:45:01.880 --> 0:45:04.480 who is the founder of Uber and he was going 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:09.200 through some slight troubles at the time, and he um, 0:45:09.239 --> 0:45:13.640 he and I met and talked for hours about you know, 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:18.600 what Uber could do to be a catalyst for change. Actually, 0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:20.840 you know, it was my position that it wasn't so 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:25.080 much about apologizing and looking backwards, but how could the 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:28.120 company as a poster child for everything that was wrong, 0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:33.680 you know, with sexual harassment or behavior against women and 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:36.920 lack of diversity, Like, how could that company be the 0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:40.320 poster child as a catalyst, you know, for change in tech? 0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:44.080 Um and I did that for a year, but so 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:47.719 so clearly, just to interrupt for two seconds posed obviously 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:52.279 that would have been quite a turnaround. But was it 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:56.520 just too deeply embedded in the DNA of that company 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:02.680 too to be the change they wished to see? Nice? 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:07.080 Nice one there. I like that because I really it's 0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:09.680 a good thing. I mean, I really, yes, I love 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:12.399 but that's literally one of my favorites because it's truly 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:15.320 about being you know, which I I truly love and 0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:18.160 and believe deeply. But you're right, I think there was 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:21.960 so much going against the company. Um. You know, it 0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:25.000 was interesting to see the victual that was aimed at 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:27.560 the company for what I felt were ills that were 0:46:27.560 --> 0:46:30.440 at every company, you know that I couldn't see. I 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.319 couldn't in my experience, there hadn't been one company that 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:37.960 had all the solutions you know that was a warm 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:40.839 place for people of color, you know, to feel like 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:42.839 you know, I was like, is there a Valhalla? Because 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:45.520 if there is, show me and I will actually go there. 0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:48.880 But I have not found it. Um So that was 0:46:49.120 --> 0:46:51.400 a big challenge when I think that just in general, 0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:55.040 there were so many management changes at the time, couldn't 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:57.719 find its footing. You know that if if there was 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:01.560 more time and more allowance, you know, to be able 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:06.799 to correct that, I perhaps could have um stayed. But 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:09.160 you know, there were a lot of different inputs, but 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:12.120 mostly just you know the fact that, um, I felt 0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:14.759 that my view of what needed to happen and the 0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:17.080 company's view of what needed to happen we're not aligned. 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:20.880 And um you know, it's one of those decisions that 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:22.719 I've made that I was not sure if it was 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:25.720 right at the time, but I'm sure it's how glad 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:30.320 I made the choice to leave, now you know. Um yeah, yeah, 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:36.200 well so it led me to where I am today. 0:47:33.440 --> 0:47:39.239 And yes, yes, yes, what is it about it that 0:47:39.320 --> 0:47:42.839 you that you like so much. Well, endeavor is like 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:47.239 the center of all things pop culture, all the things 0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:50.200 that I have loved, you know, in life and in 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:54.279 my career, whether it's music or film or books or 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:59.720 oh gosh, commentary, politics, you know, the whole thing, everything, 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:03.800 um and I really enjoy the thought of and also 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:08.839 the action of creating messaging, whether it's large, you know, 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:13.200 on big theater screens or it is small on social 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:17.480 media screens, that helped to evolve the narrative, you know, 0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:21.719 of of our collective human experience. That if I can 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:26.560 be at the table, you know, to help people understand 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:29.480 not only their own power, but also help them navigate 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:35.360 the way that they manage their stories, that perhaps we 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:39.080 have a better society and a better human society because 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:41.600 of that. You know that if I can help people 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:44.239 the word authentic he's coming up, But if I could 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.160 help people be more authentic, you know. So sometimes I 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:52.080 have conversations with different artists or you know, creators, and 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:54.680 the questions always, you know, well, how how do I, 0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:57.600 you know, sell this thing you know, or what is 0:48:57.640 --> 0:48:59.560 the thing that everybody's excited about? And how do I 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:02.960 get close to that? Thing, and my perpess is always like, no, 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:05.919 it's not, it's not outside, you know. It's like people 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:09.000 want to connect to whatever you have, you know, the 0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:12.600 deeply embedded thing that is special about you, and that's 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:14.960 what they actually, that's actually the magic, you know, So 0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:18.040 let's pull that out. And so it often feels like therapy, 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:22.320 you know. It often feels like conversations where we're talking 0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:26.120 about what is so special and unique about the particular 0:49:26.160 --> 0:49:28.960 project or the person you know that can just be 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:32.200 highlighted more in a in a in a bigger way, 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.759 and that has been really really wonderful, you know. And 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:38.680 and so it's like not just the individual people, but yeah, 0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:42.120 the companies and the brands too, and helping helping to 0:49:42.200 --> 0:49:46.359 navigate um, their marketing strategies and vision for what could 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:50.480 be a really dope society. I think we should call 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:55.400 our podcast dope society. Yes, that's what we should call it. Well, 0:49:55.440 --> 0:50:01.720 I'm super excited about exploring not only UH people and leadership, 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:06.719 but important cultural moments and seismic shifts and how we 0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:11.360 can make a new normal a better normal. And um, 0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:15.920 I can't think of anybody who who I'd enjoy spending 0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:19.680 time with Bows and exploring some of these things more 0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:23.840 than you. So I'm super excited about some of the 0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:26.640 conversations we're going to have in the future, and and 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:30.320 I'm so grateful for the conversation we had today as well. 0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:34.040 I appreciate that Katie same here. I'm very excited about 0:50:34.080 --> 0:50:36.920 these conversations we're going to have. Um. Yes, I believe 0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:39.000 we're going to have a Dope Society based on what 0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:46.920 we discussed. And that does it for this episode of 0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:49.400 Next Question. I hope you all got to know Bows 0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:52.360 a little bit better because next week will be the 0:50:52.400 --> 0:50:55.920 first of our special ten episodes series, which we're not 0:50:56.040 --> 0:50:59.840 calling Dope Society, but we are calling back to biz 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:03.279 with Katie and Bows. I'm really excited to partner with 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.240 Bose so we can explore a lot of meata topics 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:10.000 in our changing world, like what leadership looks like today, 0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:14.320 what could rise from the ashes of disruption, and lessons 0:51:14.360 --> 0:51:18.200 from our own careers, our successes are failures, and even 0:51:18.200 --> 0:51:22.000 our missteps, including a recent comment I made about an 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:25.640 interview I've done with Denzel Washington and why many people 0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:29.239 found it offensive. We're looking forward to learning from each 0:51:29.239 --> 0:51:32.880 other and growing in the process. So look out for 0:51:32.960 --> 0:51:36.600 what we're hoping will be important conversations on our Next 0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:40.279 Question feed, which you can find on Apple Podcasts, the 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:43.919 I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts, 0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:48.400 and for more from me and some of the interesting 0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:51.520 people I get to speak to make sure you sign 0:51:51.600 --> 0:51:54.200 up for my morning newsletter is called wake Up Call, 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.800 and you can do that by going to Katie Couric 0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:00.640 dot com. So until next time and my Next Question, 0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:19.120 I'm Katie Couric, Thanks so much for listening. Next Question 0:52:19.160 --> 0:52:21.520 with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart Radio 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.959 and Katie Curreic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik, 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:29.120 Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:33.920 Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are 0:52:33.960 --> 0:52:38.280 Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:43.440 Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher 0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:47.480 is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:50.280 to Katie Currek dot com and follow us on Twitter 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:56.920 and Instagram at Katie Curk. For more podcasts for My 0:52:57.000 --> 0:52:59.960 Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.160 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.