Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to Next Question.
Speaker 1: As you Next Question listeners know, we've dedicated this podcast
Speaker 1: almost exclusively to covering the coronavirus pandemic as it happened.
Speaker 1: But now that we've settled into this strange new reality,
Speaker 1: with much of our daily lives put on hold, it's
Speaker 1: time to figure out how we start to get to
Speaker 1: a new normal and find out what that normal even
Speaker 1: looks like, which is why today I'm gearing up for
Speaker 1: something new and really exciting, and I'm bringing along a
Speaker 1: friend to help me. Kay, Hi Katie, you know um
Speaker 1: Bosma st. John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose work
Speaker 1: has straddled two worlds, music and pop culture and Silicon Valley.
Speaker 1: She transforms and guides big name brands like Pepsi, Apple
Speaker 1: and now Endeavor, where she's chief marketing officer, giving them
Speaker 1: purpose and personality, making her very much in demand. Thank you, Eddie.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and sixteen, she was the first black
Speaker 1: woman to present at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, where she
Speaker 1: managed to rouse the mainly white male audience out of
Speaker 1: their stupor with a giant dance party like this classic
Speaker 1: the Sugarhill Gang. It kind of feels appropriate to get
Speaker 1: this party started with a little bit of rappers alike. Right,
Speaker 1: come on, let's listen to something. Come on, y'all, now
Speaker 1: you recognize me? Right, come on, We're gonna make the
Speaker 1: whole auditorium rock. It was definitely something those Apple execs
Speaker 1: had never seen before, and that's pretty much how Bows
Speaker 1: has excelled her entire career by being her true and
Speaker 1: fabulous self. I lead with my difference. I don't lead
Speaker 1: with the commonality. You know that I am holly myself
Speaker 1: in not trying to put on for anyone and still
Speaker 1: try to manage in an environment which was not built
Speaker 1: for me. Bows is someone I've admired and respected for
Speaker 1: quite a while, and I'm super excited to share that
Speaker 1: soon she'll be joining me as my co host for
Speaker 1: a special ten episode series about how we can all
Speaker 1: get back to business biz and Bo's kind of goes together,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. We'll have more on that later, but today
Speaker 1: I just wanted you to get to know her. There's
Speaker 1: a lot I think we can learn from bows Is
Speaker 1: life and career and her thoughts on my next question,
Speaker 1: Can this pandemic somehow make us better people. She joined
Speaker 1: me over Zoom from her home in l A, which
Speaker 1: she shares with her soon to be eleven year old
Speaker 1: daughter Lael. I'm glad to be here. I am feeling
Speaker 1: really good. Uh this morning, at least, this is one
Speaker 1: of the mornings, so I feel really good. Since Bose
Speaker 1: considers herself a bit of an ant apologist a student
Speaker 1: of human behavior, I wanted to get a read on
Speaker 1: what she thought was happening in this moment, a moment
Speaker 1: where we're seeing the best of humanity but also anger
Speaker 1: and resentment taking over the public square with protesters, songs
Speaker 1: mass in Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan. You know what it's
Speaker 1: interesting is it reminds me of the stages of grief.
Speaker 1: You know. It's actually what it really reminds me of
Speaker 1: that you know, at the beginning, you are just so
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly sad, and you're sort of grabbing onto anything to
Speaker 1: make you feel normal and whole, and you know, you
Speaker 1: just want comfort, right, And I think that's what was
Speaker 1: happening in the beginning, and reaching out to people their facetimes,
Speaker 1: having their Zoom parties. There's like all kinds of things,
Speaker 1: you know, people behaviors that people were exhibiting to UM
Speaker 1: grab onto the familiar, you know, even in the time
Speaker 1: of their of their fear. UM. And then it started
Speaker 1: moving and changing, very much like grief does you know,
Speaker 1: as you're going through the feelings of loss, where that
Speaker 1: turns into the anger you know about that? Why? Why
Speaker 1: why has this happened? Why has it happened to me?
Speaker 1: Less about you? Why has this happened to me? You know?
Speaker 1: And and how can I how can I get control
Speaker 1: of this thing? I'm really upset. I want to make
Speaker 1: sure that everybody knows how upset I am about this,
Speaker 1: and people take that out in different ways, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think there will also come a time, um,
Speaker 1: maybe not that soon, where we will start to see,
Speaker 1: you know, after going through the anger, UM will start
Speaker 1: to see the new behaviors, you know, people creating new
Speaker 1: ways to cope, which will I have. I'm very you know,
Speaker 1: optimistic in that that we will find that people, um
Speaker 1: will let go of the aleanna ish you know behavior
Speaker 1: that first came in the first wave, you know, of
Speaker 1: the like kumbaya, everybody hold hands. I will never be
Speaker 1: mean again in life, you know that thought and will
Speaker 1: move through the anger and the you know, distracted conversation
Speaker 1: around why me and then taking it out on other people,
Speaker 1: and we will move into a new way of being,
Speaker 1: you know, a new way of living that will be
Speaker 1: much healthier for us. But that also takes awareness, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes awareness, and it takes an acceptance of the
Speaker 1: loss of the way things were, the loss of innocence,
Speaker 1: you know, about our world and how we behave, and
Speaker 1: it will require people to realize that that's not coming back.
Speaker 1: You know, that new normal is not coming back. I'm
Speaker 1: sure for you as and for me um. You know,
Speaker 1: having gone through grief, there is that moment where you, oh, man,
Speaker 1: it's a hard moment. But the realization that nothing will
Speaker 1: be what it was, you know, this idea that you're
Speaker 1: going back to normal actually doesn't exist. And so thinking
Speaker 1: about that and figuring out, well, how then do I
Speaker 1: recreate my life, how do I cope? How do I
Speaker 1: move forward? Becomes then your own sort of healing process,
Speaker 1: you know, and then when you actually figure it out,
Speaker 1: that's when you actually start to feel better. You truly
Speaker 1: feel better. It's not again the happy, go lucky thing,
Speaker 1: it's it's actually much deeper. It feels deeper. And so
Speaker 1: that's what I'm hopeful for. You know that our communities
Speaker 1: and our people in our lives, even myself, you know
Speaker 1: that we get to that place where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's the reality, uh, and how do I manage my
Speaker 1: life now from now on? And this is when I
Speaker 1: think those leadership is so important to have some kind
Speaker 1: of north star, somebody who is bringing the country together.
Speaker 1: And sadly, I just think the current leadership, I think
Speaker 1: President Trump is is really kind of using this too
Speaker 1: for there divide us, which is incredibly upsetting to me
Speaker 1: because when someone asked him about what would you Peter Alexander,
Speaker 1: who I used to work with at NBC, what would
Speaker 1: you say to people who are afraid? What do you
Speaker 1: say to Americans who are watching you right now who
Speaker 1: are scared? I say that you're a terrible reporter, That's
Speaker 1: what I say. I think it's a very nasty question,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a very bad signal that you're
Speaker 1: putting out to the American that was such a moment
Speaker 1: for him to be a unifying force, for him to
Speaker 1: say this is scary. It's scary for everyone, and this
Speaker 1: is what we need to do instead of b rating,
Speaker 1: taking that opportunity to brate the press. And I think
Speaker 1: that words are really important now. And whether it's George W.
Speaker 1: Bush after nine eleven or President Obama after Sandy Hook
Speaker 1: or FDR during you know, you have nothing, we have
Speaker 1: nothing to fear but fear itself. You know, those are
Speaker 1: the moments that are the rallying cry for people too,
Speaker 1: I think want to aspire to better and to to
Speaker 1: think about the common good. And I think there's been
Speaker 1: such a vacuum their bows. It's heartbreaking to me, man,
Speaker 1: I feel overwhelmed even by that, to be honest, But
Speaker 1: there happened leaders emerging bows like you know Andrew Cuomo
Speaker 1: and I think Gavin Knewso the Republican governor of Maryland.
Speaker 1: There there have been these beacons I think of intelligence,
Speaker 1: of calm, of inspiration, of creativity that I think have emerged.
Speaker 1: Don't use yes, absolutely absolutely, and it it really actually
Speaker 1: just drives back to a theory that I've had actually
Speaker 1: for quite some time around leadership UM and the evolution
Speaker 1: of what leadership looks like in this country but really
Speaker 1: all around the world world. You know, in that UM
Speaker 1: for either in business or in politics, probably politics less
Speaker 1: because you know, we're used to seeing the candidate, although
Speaker 1: the candidate or the elected official still feels very much
Speaker 1: like there's a veneer there right that we can't penetrate,
Speaker 1: or has felt like that for a long time, and
Speaker 1: in business very much the same. In that CEOs or
Speaker 1: anyone in the c suite, feels like everything is always scripted, right,
Speaker 1: you have to say it the right way, you have
Speaker 1: to say it in the right cadence um or sometimes
Speaker 1: those people are not known, right, and all you have
Speaker 1: is the brick and mortar building of the brand for
Speaker 1: people to attach with that has completely evaporated, right. I
Speaker 1: feel like over the last twenty years or so, it's
Speaker 1: slowly been coming down, but this moment has erase the
Speaker 1: rest of it. You know, I thought it would take
Speaker 1: us another five or ten years to get to the
Speaker 1: place where we needed full transparency. Will days upon us
Speaker 1: or right now? You know, people want to see the humans.
Speaker 1: You don't care about perfection. I have tried to say
Speaker 1: that again and again and again to every leader that
Speaker 1: you don't have to be perfect. The script doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be perfect. You know, you can use sometimes the
Speaker 1: wrong words because we're all trying to figure this out,
Speaker 1: you know, and right now. One of the ways that
Speaker 1: I've been talking about about this um you know, in
Speaker 1: my work, I'm the chief marketing officer of Endeavor, and
Speaker 1: one of the biggest strategic insights has come out of
Speaker 1: this time is that we want brands to be companions
Speaker 1: to our consumers, right into our audiences. This is not
Speaker 1: necessarily about service. This is not about standing up on
Speaker 1: top of the hill and you know, screaming down on
Speaker 1: the people that you know better that they should come
Speaker 1: to you because you have the perfect solution for whatever
Speaker 1: thing in their lives. This is not that time. People
Speaker 1: want companionship, you know, they want you to sit next
Speaker 1: to them and tell them that you're hurting too, you know,
Speaker 1: and that you are hurting. But here's what I have
Speaker 1: found to help make me better. Maybe you can try it.
Speaker 1: That's what they want to hear. And that that cuts
Speaker 1: across everything. That's not just businesses, that's politics. So you're
Speaker 1: right that moment with President Trump, it wouldn't have mattered,
Speaker 1: you know that what his political leanings are, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if he had answered
Speaker 1: and said, you know, yeah, we're all scared I'm scared.
Speaker 1: I'm scared for the health of my family. I'm scared
Speaker 1: for the health of myself, by the way, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the best thing is to
Speaker 1: do so that we can all stay safe. I believe
Speaker 1: everyone would have felt better, and he probably would have
Speaker 1: won some points. I think so too. I think so too.
Speaker 1: I think, uh, that just was such a lost opportunity.
Speaker 1: But if someone doesn't feel that in their heart, you know, um,
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't even script that, right, So you can't,
Speaker 1: you can't. But I think you're right. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that word off senticity has been so overused at
Speaker 1: this point, you know, it's become kind of a buzzword.
Speaker 1: But but I think people are are looking for true
Speaker 1: human emotion. Why are people looking to brands two for comfort?
Speaker 1: I mean, you just I don't think people ever kind
Speaker 1: of even yearned for that relationship with brands. And I
Speaker 1: think that's such an interesting development in our culture. What
Speaker 1: do you think lead to that those comfort has always existed,
Speaker 1: you know, as a way for brands to communicate with
Speaker 1: our audiences and their consumers. They probably just didn't say
Speaker 1: it that way, you know, And and comfort showed up
Speaker 1: in in many different ways. Yeah, I worked for PepsiCo
Speaker 1: for a long time on their soda businesses, and at
Speaker 1: that time, you know, the the idea was to bring joy, right,
Speaker 1: just pure joy in in five minutes or less. And
Speaker 1: that is some sort of comfort, right, um. But today
Speaker 1: the come furt is in making me feel safe. It's
Speaker 1: in making me feel like I can be just be,
Speaker 1: not necessarily achieved, just be you know, a k. It
Speaker 1: should feel like, um, information that is safe and reliable.
Speaker 1: You know, that kind of comfort is what people are
Speaker 1: truly looking for. And even the comfort of letting go,
Speaker 1: you know, the comfort in not being bound by any
Speaker 1: expectations that had been set for us before letting go
Speaker 1: is a real comfort that people feel like they need
Speaker 1: permission to do. And so if brands would communicate that
Speaker 1: through their products and services, I think they would find
Speaker 1: more loyalty in this very moment. And sometimes especially in
Speaker 1: times like this, you know, everybody feels like the responsibility
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, do something. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like I've got to do something otherwise I'm doing nothing,
Speaker 1: or or I need to help my community otherwise I'm
Speaker 1: doing nothing. I need a fundraise to help the health
Speaker 1: care workers, or I'm doing nothing, you know, And I
Speaker 1: constantly try to remind people that that's that's wonderful, that's
Speaker 1: great if you are able to do that, you know,
Speaker 1: but that's really taking stock. If you are able to
Speaker 1: do that, always take the focus group of one. You know,
Speaker 1: what am I feeling like? Do I have the bandwidth
Speaker 1: to do that? Because if you don't and you fall,
Speaker 1: then we have then we have a problem. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're standing and you're well, and you're healthy, and
Speaker 1: you're stable and mentally ready to help your community and
Speaker 1: you know, go out and help your neighbor, or do
Speaker 1: whatever other thing you would achieve more, learn a new language,
Speaker 1: like do all the things that are expected, you know,
Speaker 1: these high expectations of us, then great, do that. But
Speaker 1: if you're not able to do that, having the permission
Speaker 1: to simply be is really important. And so I've been
Speaker 1: counseling brands and you know, leaders within those brands to
Speaker 1: think about how they can be better comforters to their audiences,
Speaker 1: to their employees, uh and even to their own families.
Speaker 1: Because once we can see that you are human and
Speaker 1: that you're feeling this too, that you're not above all
Speaker 1: of this craziness that's going on, then more people can
Speaker 1: identify with you as a human being. And that's all
Speaker 1: we want. We want our human connection. That's it. There's
Speaker 1: nothing more more with bozemas St. John after the short break.
Speaker 1: Bozeman's St. John is hugely successful. But you know you've
Speaker 1: really made it when your career is the subject of
Speaker 1: a Harvard Business School lass, and hers was this past semester.
Speaker 1: I first heard that they wanted to do it, and
Speaker 1: I thought for a second, like, wow, well does that
Speaker 1: mean I should do I retire now? Like what happens exactly,
Speaker 1: or or somebody trying to tell me something, you know,
Speaker 1: like okay, your your career is done, now go and
Speaker 1: do something else. You know. That's what it feels like.
Speaker 1: It feels like the type of thing that happens when
Speaker 1: somebody feels like you've crested. Uh. And so it was.
Speaker 1: It was actually really weird to feel, um that what
Speaker 1: I had done was quite frankly worthy of a class
Speaker 1: um and also overwhelming, and that that choices that I've made,
Speaker 1: you know, different experiences that I've had within my career
Speaker 1: that other people would be studying, you know, and and
Speaker 1: either having great things to say about it, or maybe
Speaker 1: arguing about it. You know, that felt very It felt
Speaker 1: like it was something again like outside of my control.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like these personal decisions that I've made
Speaker 1: over the course of time. Now we're open to being judged,
Speaker 1: you know, by other people, which is funny because I
Speaker 1: do live a public life. I you know, I'm sure
Speaker 1: there are lots of people who have opinions about moves
Speaker 1: I've made or campaigns I've run. But to think that
Speaker 1: it would be an academic pursuit is something totally different.
Speaker 1: And I have to thank Francis fry Um, who is
Speaker 1: the professor who led the class. Um. She she and
Speaker 1: I actually met at uber so she had been brought
Speaker 1: into essentially help management be better. You know. So at
Speaker 1: the time I joined UM, there was quite a bit
Speaker 1: of upheaval. That's probably a light I was going to say,
Speaker 1: to put it mildly, Yes, yes, upheaval in the management team.
Speaker 1: And she is a extraordinary uh professor in there in
Speaker 1: the Harvard Business School, and so she knows academically how
Speaker 1: to um advise and not just advice, but also set
Speaker 1: up an organization of managers. And so she was brought
Speaker 1: in to do that, um, And so it was it
Speaker 1: was just quite wonderful actually that we both ended up
Speaker 1: at UBER at the same time. And so when she
Speaker 1: upon her leaving, she just said that not only was
Speaker 1: she interested and impressed by the career I've had so far, UM,
Speaker 1: but in leading with difference, you know that I lead
Speaker 1: with my difference. I don't lead with the commonality. You
Speaker 1: know that I am wholly myself in in all those situations,
Speaker 1: and that it was fascinating to see her or to
Speaker 1: see me behave just as myself, not trying to put
Speaker 1: on airs for anyone and still try to manage in
Speaker 1: an environment which was not built for me. And so
Speaker 1: the thesis of her class was about leading with difference
Speaker 1: on how to do that. That's fascinating, and leading with
Speaker 1: difference means, I guess, as if I gathered correctly what
Speaker 1: you were just saying, leading from your pure authentic point
Speaker 1: of view. But what else does leading with difference mean?
Speaker 1: Bows Yeah, leading with difference means that you don't do
Speaker 1: it the textbook away. You know that you are doing
Speaker 1: it your own way, and that is a that is
Speaker 1: something that I wish every leader would do. You know that, um,
Speaker 1: you will use the word authenticity, which you're right, it's overused,
Speaker 1: but it is there's nothing else that can replace it.
Speaker 1: You know that you don't have to be a black
Speaker 1: woman who is from Caldo Springs, Colorado by way of Ghana,
Speaker 1: UM to be different. You know that that even the
Speaker 1: stereotypes of what we have seen as leadership in corporate America,
Speaker 1: UM that if we just looked a little below, you know,
Speaker 1: under the cover a little bit, there'd be something there.
Speaker 1: You know that is that each of them have that
Speaker 1: are different from the other, but that we are not
Speaker 1: and I'm using the air quotes, you know, allowed to
Speaker 1: show our difference when we are leaders, that there is
Speaker 1: some model that we're supposed to be living up to.
Speaker 1: You know that you can't show up on Instagram in
Speaker 1: a bikini as a executive woman because somehow that's not
Speaker 1: the image that people expect of your Yeah. Um, And
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily saying that you should go to the
Speaker 1: office and your bikini. I'm just saying right right, Well,
Speaker 1: I I've noticed throughout my career that that I think
Speaker 1: people have a hard time dealing with multi dimentionality, if
Speaker 1: that's a word, someone who is many things, because we
Speaker 1: all are, but I think that we all wear a
Speaker 1: mask for our certain roles and behave a certain way
Speaker 1: that conforms with previously held views of what said role
Speaker 1: was supposed to be. Like if that makes sense. You know,
Speaker 1: and I've seen I've I had challenges in that department
Speaker 1: throughout my career. You know, that you couldn't be funny
Speaker 1: and laugh and have a good time but also when necessary,
Speaker 1: be deadly serious. That somehow, if you exhibited this other
Speaker 1: side of you, or if you you know, went on
Speaker 1: Instagram in a bikini or did something kind of funny
Speaker 1: and silly, that that that meant that you didn't it
Speaker 1: took away from this other side of you, or it
Speaker 1: delegitimized another side of you, which I find fascinating. And
Speaker 1: I think that's what you're saying, that that there have
Speaker 1: been these archetypes that we've had to adhere to for
Speaker 1: various roles because partially, Bose, I think it's because of
Speaker 1: the images that we've seen of the people occupying those roles. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. But one of the reasons that
Speaker 1: I love you is the fan love like love love,
Speaker 1: is that you have been able to balance both of
Speaker 1: those sides in a way that I haven't seen many
Speaker 1: people in the public eye to be able to do.
Speaker 1: You know, I've tried, but I don't think I've always
Speaker 1: been successful. You know. I think that there have been people,
Speaker 1: because they have certain expectations of how someone looks or
Speaker 1: acts or is in a certain role, that they reject
Speaker 1: you if in fact they've seen too much of the
Speaker 1: other side. So I appreciate that that you think that,
Speaker 1: but I think it's been challenging for me throughout my career.
Speaker 1: But I think what I hear you saying, bows is
Speaker 1: that people need to embrace that and use it as
Speaker 1: an asset and be transparent about the many sides of themselves. Exactly, absolutely,
Speaker 1: Because even in that, Katie, you know, even in your
Speaker 1: ability to be funny and silly and then also deliver
Speaker 1: important information that we should take seriously, you have, I've
Speaker 1: created a dimension that we didn't see before. And if
Speaker 1: there are difficulties and challenges and criticisms and all of
Speaker 1: the things, I my desire is that more of us
Speaker 1: would show those things, you know, more of us would
Speaker 1: be more would be transparent about that, more of us
Speaker 1: would say damn it, Okay, all right, let me figure
Speaker 1: this out because I didn't. I didn't get that right.
Speaker 1: You know that if we actually said that, we would
Speaker 1: find that there would be so much more. Um, loyalty
Speaker 1: is the wrong word, but it's only one I can
Speaker 1: think of. But it's like a loyalty to ourselves. You
Speaker 1: know that that people would also see that. You know
Speaker 1: that if if we if we lead with difference in
Speaker 1: that way, you know that we lead with the truest
Speaker 1: form of ourselves that is very different from what is
Speaker 1: supposed to be, people will actually allow us to be,
Speaker 1: which is such a revolutionary idea. When it comes to leadership,
Speaker 1: you know, and again, it doesn't matter what kind of leadership.
Speaker 1: It can be political, it could be business, it could
Speaker 1: be on the airwaves, it can be anywhere. And that
Speaker 1: if you are out in front and that people can
Speaker 1: see you and people are looking to you. For the example,
Speaker 1: we don't need perfection. We don't even need perfection in
Speaker 1: the multidimensionality. You said that's the word, right, Um that
Speaker 1: you know it's it's like, Okay, I'm a fun person.
Speaker 1: Well do I need to be perfectly fun? I'm a
Speaker 1: serious person. Also, do I need to be perfectly serious?
Speaker 1: It's like, no, The answer is no, there are faults
Speaker 1: in there and that's okay. And I think right now,
Speaker 1: in this very moment, it is where we need to
Speaker 1: be braver about showing those parts that are not perfect,
Speaker 1: even in our multidimensionality, that those imperfections, those mistakes, those
Speaker 1: learnings are all part of this and that is okay,
Speaker 1: and that people will actually accept us if we actually
Speaker 1: showed the truest sense of ourselves. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Um,
Speaker 1: but are there people Bowse that you've seen exhibit exceptional
Speaker 1: leadership during this this time that you look to Because
Speaker 1: people are brands in a way, right, and they're all
Speaker 1: I think, giving showing us sort of how to navigate this.
Speaker 1: They're giving us something to look up to. And I'm
Speaker 1: just curious, in all your dealings talking to people, have
Speaker 1: you seen people and you think, yeah, yeah, they're doing
Speaker 1: this right. Yes, certainly. Like you said, I'm an anthropologist
Speaker 1: of sorts and so, um, I definitely study people and
Speaker 1: I love to see how they behave and how they behave,
Speaker 1: especially in this time. And um, you already mentioned one
Speaker 1: who I think you know was a surprise but came out, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, really wonderfully Governor Cuomo. You know, I just
Speaker 1: think has been phenomenal in this time. Um. And why
Speaker 1: do you think that? I mean, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: specifically what you've seen. I think his communication style is exceptional,
Speaker 1: you know, in that he delivers information clearly, succinctly, um,
Speaker 1: without frill and so and I'm I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: that's a choice or is just the way that he is.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the way he is just regularly in his
Speaker 1: day to day dealings. UM. But he doesn't add sugar,
Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't try to spin. He just says
Speaker 1: what it is. And sometimes it can feel very direct
Speaker 1: and maybe short, but I actually think it it's working.
Speaker 1: You know, it works because people don't want to hear
Speaker 1: the extras the This is the amazing thing. Also just
Speaker 1: a little segue, which is that sometimes I think as leaders,
Speaker 1: we feel the need to be everything. You know that
Speaker 1: that you have to be the comforter and also the
Speaker 1: one who you know, gives the straight talk about all
Speaker 1: the things. And in some in some cases, especially in this,
Speaker 1: you know, delivering the information, you can just do it
Speaker 1: in a way that allows people to understand what you're saying,
Speaker 1: and that's it. You know, you can just choose to
Speaker 1: do that. And that's what he's doing. When you listen
Speaker 1: to his his conferences. Uh, he is very to the point,
Speaker 1: you know. And I especially loved his reaction when uh,
Speaker 1: you know, his his brother, um, and I believe his
Speaker 1: sister in law also contracted the virus um in that
Speaker 1: he at that moment was the big brother. And that's
Speaker 1: what we saw when he told me he had the coronavirus. Uh,
Speaker 1: it scared me. It frightened me. Why because we still
Speaker 1: don't know. Um, we still don't know. And even if
Speaker 1: there's just the one two percent chance, it's frightening. It
Speaker 1: is frightened and frightened me. Uh. And I deal with
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff, and I've seen all sorts of things,
Speaker 1: and it frightened me. Why because we're talking about my
Speaker 1: my brother, talking about my little brother. This is my
Speaker 1: best friend. You know, he wasn't just the governor but
Speaker 1: some somebody's big brother. He had some sharp criticisms about
Speaker 1: what his brother was doing. And I had a situation
Speaker 1: with Christopher two weeks ago that I even mentioned my
Speaker 1: mother was at his house, and I said, that is
Speaker 1: a mistake. Now my mother is in a different situation,
Speaker 1: and I just thought it was brilliant. I'm the eldest
Speaker 1: of four girls, you know, in that moment, I identified
Speaker 1: with him, you know, essentially chastising his younger, younger brother
Speaker 1: on TV. It is brilliant. Great again, perhaps that's just
Speaker 1: the way he is, but I thought it was so
Speaker 1: wonderfully human to see that. Um it's it's interesting there.
Speaker 1: So there there are quite a few people. I think
Speaker 1: there are some innovators also who have come up, like
Speaker 1: in pop culture that I think are so fascinating. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I have talked a little bit about my
Speaker 1: good friend Derek DJ d Nice, who has emerged as
Speaker 1: a leader in music and bringing comfort to people from
Speaker 1: his apartment here in in in l a uh in
Speaker 1: that he has really brought together people using the tools
Speaker 1: that he always uses his turntables, right, he plays good music.
Speaker 1: And I remember the first night that he was going
Speaker 1: to go on and just play music. You know, he
Speaker 1: was just like he just needed something to do, you know,
Speaker 1: he just wanted to keep the sort of the energy
Speaker 1: going and energy flowing, It's what he said. And he
Speaker 1: was like, just come on the live I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: on there. You know, I play for you know, for
Speaker 1: as long as I feel like it. And I think
Speaker 1: that first that he played for five hours Welcome Back,
Speaker 1: there might have been five people in there. You know,
Speaker 1: we were all in the comments going back and forth.
Speaker 1: Then he was like, you know what, I think I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do it again. Tell your friends. And the next
Speaker 1: day it was like two thousand people. The third night
Speaker 1: it was ten thousand people, and it's like, holy where
Speaker 1: did all these people come from? You know, it was crazy.
Speaker 1: And then at his peak, he crested just over a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people to point where it like crashed Instagram.
Speaker 1: They needed to figure out new ways of bandwidth. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was insane, you know. And now it's like he's
Speaker 1: doing these partnerships with Michelle Obama on voting. You know,
Speaker 1: I saw him on some morning shows. Um I think
Speaker 1: he got you know, he's doing some merchandise with Will Smith.
Speaker 1: It was just it's just the wildest thing. But to
Speaker 1: think that someone who is taking his platform, which he
Speaker 1: was simply doing what he always does, you know, which
Speaker 1: he us to do. By the way, he DJ my
Speaker 1: DJ my forty birthday party. And I was, you know,
Speaker 1: trying my best not to sweat out my my hair
Speaker 1: and makeup and it was destroyed that night. So from
Speaker 1: personal experience, I can tell you he's he's really really great.
Speaker 1: But I just find that his leadership, even in this
Speaker 1: moment of just bringing people, um, the gift that he
Speaker 1: has and connecting people is remarkable. Um, it's a It's remarkable,
Speaker 1: you know that that anyone in this time can essentially
Speaker 1: take up the ban of leadership and do it in
Speaker 1: a way that is relevant, it is timely, and it
Speaker 1: is authentic to the word that we've used. You know,
Speaker 1: they're simply using the tools that they've already have. This
Speaker 1: is not about you know, learning French all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, or learning how to play a new instrument,
Speaker 1: although I've seen you play the piano, and I really
Speaker 1: want to know how to play the piano. But that's
Speaker 1: a whole another conversation. But you know what I mean
Speaker 1: that like this, this is the moment that I've seen
Speaker 1: leaders just become more of who they are and an
Speaker 1: a on a larger platform, and that is remarkably wonderful.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting, you know, both because I had I've
Speaker 1: been making contributions to a lot of organizations and um,
Speaker 1: and yet I feel and I've been sort of visiting
Speaker 1: an elderly gentleman I met at the drug store last
Speaker 1: summer because he lives by himself, to to to make
Speaker 1: sure he's okay. But I said to my friend the
Speaker 1: other day, I really want to get out there and
Speaker 1: do more. And you know, you don't have to to
Speaker 1: wait for other organizations to do something great. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the fact that everyone has a platform now
Speaker 1: there really aren't the gatekeepers that were once there. And
Speaker 1: one of the great things is you can you can
Speaker 1: do uh, you can do something amazing just yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's rallying your community, because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people the need is so great and there's so
Speaker 1: many people who need help. That can be overwhelming to
Speaker 1: like where do I give, even if it's ten dollars
Speaker 1: or twenty dollars or five dollars or a thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: whatever you can do, And sometimes you can just say, hey,
Speaker 1: there's this need in my community. Let's all get together
Speaker 1: and let's all do something for the people in our town,
Speaker 1: you know, or let's all start a fund for all
Speaker 1: the grocery store workers that are putting themselves at risk
Speaker 1: every day. Um, you know I think that still, we
Speaker 1: sometimes wait for something bigger to tell us what to do,
Speaker 1: to instruct us where we can actually just do it ourselves. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And um, you know it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I have recently begun to run outside. Uh six months ago.
Speaker 1: You could not have made me run for a mile
Speaker 1: or more. There's no way. I mean, I'm like, am
Speaker 1: i am I running from a bear? Okay, but just
Speaker 1: like running for fun? I don't think so. Um, but
Speaker 1: I started to run in my neighborhood. Um, usually very early,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like literally around dawn or so, and
Speaker 1: no one is no one is awake. But it feels
Speaker 1: fresh and it feels rejuvenating to me. And I don't
Speaker 1: know who this person is. I'm assuming it's a child. Um,
Speaker 1: but they've written messages on the sidewalk, you know, like
Speaker 1: these just little positive messages and you know sometimes the
Speaker 1: ray bows and keep going and one more step and
Speaker 1: I just I literally, I mean I was so emotional
Speaker 1: the first of my side. I literally cried, you know,
Speaker 1: like stopped on the sidewalk and cried and I just thought, wow,
Speaker 1: like that is such a wonderful thing. You know that
Speaker 1: right now we all have that the ability to create
Speaker 1: in this moment, and but I do want a caveat
Speaker 1: and saying that, you know, this is very much like
Speaker 1: every other scenario, which is that if you are not well,
Speaker 1: you can't help other people be well, you know, And
Speaker 1: so we do have to pay attention to ourselves and
Speaker 1: make sure that we're also not over extending. And that's
Speaker 1: not just you know, for us sort of in the community,
Speaker 1: that's for the leadership too. And that's like leaders like
Speaker 1: are you peaceful? Are you saying are you feeling healthy?
Speaker 1: Not just physically but emotionally, you know, before you take
Speaker 1: on the added things. And by the way, I think,
Speaker 1: how amazing would it be if if any one of
Speaker 1: our leaders said that they were really having a hard
Speaker 1: time emotionally, you know, right now, and they would use
Speaker 1: themselves as the example on how to even engage on wellness.
Speaker 1: Like that's that's the next thing I'm waiting for, you know,
Speaker 1: who's going to do? I do? I do feel like
Speaker 1: you're starting to see those walls kind of start to
Speaker 1: come tumbling down, if not with leaders, but with celebrities
Speaker 1: or personalities who are being incredibly transparent about their emotional state,
Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna you're going to see that more.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it gets tricky because it's such
Speaker 1: a thin line, our fine line, I think bows between
Speaker 1: doing something out of a place of honesty and transparency
Speaker 1: and doing something out of a place of uh of
Speaker 1: where there might be ulterior motives, right, And I think
Speaker 1: people can sniff that out so quickly. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's all about when you're talking about greenwashing.
Speaker 1: You know, companies that care about environmental sustainability, do they
Speaker 1: really care about environmental sustainability or are they doing that
Speaker 1: because they think they should care about environmental sustainability. And
Speaker 1: I think that's that's such a tricky thing because I
Speaker 1: think with the world being flat in terms of social media,
Speaker 1: people can can I think, become very cynical. Right, So
Speaker 1: I think you have all these different forces that work,
Speaker 1: so you have to I'm sure you consider that when
Speaker 1: you're talking to brands, like what is their true north? Then?
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it true? Or is it is it
Speaker 1: a way to manipulate consumers into seeing things their way? Right?
Speaker 1: I mean that must be tricky. Yes, that is very tricky.
Speaker 1: It is probably the trickiest you know, because there's this
Speaker 1: belief that you can't switch lanes or you can't switch
Speaker 1: gears because people would think that we're being fake, you know,
Speaker 1: And the council that I give constantly is that, what
Speaker 1: what what is your reason for doing it? You know,
Speaker 1: if it if it is not authentic, you know, if
Speaker 1: it's not true, then yeah, of course you're doing the
Speaker 1: wrong thing. Okay, it's like it's really that simple, you know.
Speaker 1: But if you are doing it for the right reasons,
Speaker 1: if you had a you know, sudden, like you know,
Speaker 1: ootional reaction to the ways that maybe your business is
Speaker 1: dealing with this very moment in time, and you decided
Speaker 1: that you wanted to send out a different message, you
Speaker 1: wanted to create something new, you know, maybe you want
Speaker 1: to shut down a plant and makes a hand sanitizer instead.
Speaker 1: Then do that, you know, do that, and it's almost like,
Speaker 1: you know, forget what the critics say, you know, don't
Speaker 1: worry about how people are going to interpret it. But
Speaker 1: are you going to sleep better at night? You know,
Speaker 1: are you going to feel like you contributed that you
Speaker 1: did all that you could do right now? If you do,
Speaker 1: then great, do that. Please don't worry about what everybody
Speaker 1: else is going to say, you know, we'll all have critics,
Speaker 1: all of us. All of us have critics one way
Speaker 1: or another, you know. But if you really feel like
Speaker 1: you're doing the right thing with the right information that
Speaker 1: you have at this moment, and you can make a
Speaker 1: difference and you feel like you should you can do
Speaker 1: that with your company, then please do it, you know,
Speaker 1: And that is that is what I counsel all the time.
Speaker 1: And other words, don't overthink it, don't overthink it. Please, yes, act,
Speaker 1: just do it. When we come back, Bozeman and I
Speaker 1: share a certain bond you'll find out after this. Now
Speaker 1: back to my conversation with Bozma. Saint John Bose, you've
Speaker 1: had such an interesting career and you're only forty three
Speaker 1: years old, and give us your quick cv UM in
Speaker 1: terms of I know you went to to Wesleyan, you
Speaker 1: grew up in Colorado Springs. Your family, your parents are
Speaker 1: both from Ghana and UM, and you've always loved popular culture.
Speaker 1: So take it from there. Yeah, okay, So graduating from Wesleyan,
Speaker 1: I moved to New York City. UM got a job
Speaker 1: as Spike Lee's assistant at his advertising agency, which is
Speaker 1: called Spike d D Bus a joint venture with d
Speaker 1: dB Needham, which is the one of the large advertising
Speaker 1: agencies in Madison Avenue, and I fell in love, you know,
Speaker 1: with advertising and marketing. I was supposed to go into
Speaker 1: med school, but um that pop culture thing, it's a bug,
Speaker 1: you know. It got under my skin and into my
Speaker 1: heart and out of my pores, and I couldn't get
Speaker 1: rid of it. So there you go. I UM I
Speaker 1: began working there, I guess as an assistant and then
Speaker 1: quickly graduated to being a coordinator. And by the time
Speaker 1: I left there four years later, UM I was helping
Speaker 1: to win the big accounts like the Pepsi, which actually
Speaker 1: became the next job that I did. Went to Pepsi
Speaker 1: and ran um a few of the brands for about
Speaker 1: a decade, including Pepsi and Mountain Dew and Aquafina. There
Speaker 1: was a flavor splash and there for a quick moment.
Speaker 1: It's defunct now not my fault. But had a really
Speaker 1: great time at Pepsi and and it's actually where I
Speaker 1: I believe the the inflection point came for me, uh
Speaker 1: and in my marketing career, because I realized that the
Speaker 1: convergence of what I loved about pop culture and what
Speaker 1: could happen from a business standpoint really converged, and so
Speaker 1: I began a group, a new group within the marketing
Speaker 1: organization at PEPSI called the Music Entertainment Division that I
Speaker 1: ran for a number of years and it it UM
Speaker 1: all sort was responsible for partnerships with the NFL and
Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of other big leagues and big
Speaker 1: entertainment platforms. But one of the most notable partnerships that
Speaker 1: I did at that time was with Beyonce for her
Speaker 1: Super Bowl hattime ship performance. That it um and it
Speaker 1: was a really wonderful moment because it was the first
Speaker 1: time a black woman had been on that stage in
Speaker 1: a decade since Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, and m that
Speaker 1: was very, very hard fought and I felt extraordinarily proud,
Speaker 1: you know, of the moment and that Beyonce really just
Speaker 1: I mean, that woman took over the stage and there
Speaker 1: was no denying, you know, that someone like her could
Speaker 1: entertain a very large audience. But in any case, that
Speaker 1: that inspired me um to just continue on the path
Speaker 1: of pop culture and finding the convergence. But um, as
Speaker 1: as with many people, you know, sometimes life gets in
Speaker 1: into your grand plans. UM. And about eight months after
Speaker 1: you know that performance with Beyonce, my husband's UM cancer
Speaker 1: had been diagnosed as terminal and I had to focus,
Speaker 1: you know, all my energy on his survival UM. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately he did not survive his cancer, and when he
Speaker 1: passed away a couple of months later, it was a
Speaker 1: you know, reflection point for me to try and figure
Speaker 1: out what I really want to do. You know, I
Speaker 1: had a four year old and did to continue to
Speaker 1: support and life that I needed to get back to
Speaker 1: UM and also an unapologetic love of my work, you
Speaker 1: know that UM. I really wanted to get back to
Speaker 1: it something that made me feel good, and I took
Speaker 1: a really big chance at the time, which now in
Speaker 1: retrospect maybe doesn't look like a big chance, but as
Speaker 1: sure as hell was. I left PEPSI after the decade
Speaker 1: and moved from New York to California, where I joined
Speaker 1: Jimmy Ivan and Dr Dre as they were launching a
Speaker 1: new division of their company, Beats by Dre. They started
Speaker 1: Beats Music, which was a music streaming service, and I
Speaker 1: had no idea what the hell I was doing, but
Speaker 1: but it sounded good, you know, It's like something something
Speaker 1: big and UH exciting and something to figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: that could pour all my energy into. And a few
Speaker 1: months after I joined the company, UM, we worked to
Speaker 1: be acquired by Apple. Uh. And then I threw all
Speaker 1: of my energy into UM sunsetting Beats music and building
Speaker 1: Apple Music, which then I did for another few years. UH.
Speaker 1: And then another inflection point, you know, being in tech
Speaker 1: and being a black woman in tech had sparked something.
Speaker 1: You know, there was interest in what leadership could look
Speaker 1: like for somebody quote unquote different in that space. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions around how I could connect
Speaker 1: with tech audiences, especially following my Apple dubbed d C
Speaker 1: performance where I UM showed the world the new interface
Speaker 1: of Apple Music. And there was a lot of I
Speaker 1: think speculation before that about whether or not someone who
Speaker 1: was not Steve Jobs, someone who you know, it was
Speaker 1: not a white man wearing jeans and a button down
Speaker 1: shirt or a black turtleneck, if they could connect to
Speaker 1: a wide audience that's a tech based audience. And we
Speaker 1: prove that that is true. UM. And so in the
Speaker 1: middle of that, I met Vis Kalinik, who is the
Speaker 1: who is the founder of Uber and he was going
Speaker 1: through some slight troubles at the time, and he um,
Speaker 1: he and I met and talked for hours about you know,
Speaker 1: what Uber could do to be a catalyst for change. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know, it was my position that it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much about apologizing and looking backwards, but how could the
Speaker 1: company as a poster child for everything that was wrong,
Speaker 1: you know, with sexual harassment or behavior against women and
Speaker 1: lack of diversity, Like, how could that company be the
Speaker 1: poster child as a catalyst, you know, for change in tech?
Speaker 1: Um and I did that for a year, but so
Speaker 1: so clearly, just to interrupt for two seconds posed obviously
Speaker 1: that would have been quite a turnaround. But was it
Speaker 1: just too deeply embedded in the DNA of that company
Speaker 1: too to be the change they wished to see? Nice?
Speaker 1: Nice one there. I like that because I really it's
Speaker 1: a good thing. I mean, I really, yes, I love
Speaker 1: but that's literally one of my favorites because it's truly
Speaker 1: about being you know, which I I truly love and
Speaker 1: and believe deeply. But you're right, I think there was
Speaker 1: so much going against the company. Um. You know, it
Speaker 1: was interesting to see the victual that was aimed at
Speaker 1: the company for what I felt were ills that were
Speaker 1: at every company, you know that I couldn't see. I
Speaker 1: couldn't in my experience, there hadn't been one company that
Speaker 1: had all the solutions you know that was a warm
Speaker 1: place for people of color, you know, to feel like
Speaker 1: you know, I was like, is there a Valhalla? Because
Speaker 1: if there is, show me and I will actually go there.
Speaker 1: But I have not found it. Um So that was
Speaker 1: a big challenge when I think that just in general,
Speaker 1: there were so many management changes at the time, couldn't
Speaker 1: find its footing. You know that if if there was
Speaker 1: more time and more allowance, you know, to be able
Speaker 1: to correct that, I perhaps could have um stayed. But
Speaker 1: you know, there were a lot of different inputs, but
Speaker 1: mostly just you know the fact that, um, I felt
Speaker 1: that my view of what needed to happen and the
Speaker 1: company's view of what needed to happen we're not aligned.
Speaker 1: And um you know, it's one of those decisions that
Speaker 1: I've made that I was not sure if it was
Speaker 1: right at the time, but I'm sure it's how glad
Speaker 1: I made the choice to leave, now you know. Um yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well so it led me to where I am today.
Speaker 1: And yes, yes, yes, what is it about it that
Speaker 1: you that you like so much. Well, endeavor is like
Speaker 1: the center of all things pop culture, all the things
Speaker 1: that I have loved, you know, in life and in
Speaker 1: my career, whether it's music or film or books or
Speaker 1: oh gosh, commentary, politics, you know, the whole thing, everything,
Speaker 1: um and I really enjoy the thought of and also
Speaker 1: the action of creating messaging, whether it's large, you know,
Speaker 1: on big theater screens or it is small on social
Speaker 1: media screens, that helped to evolve the narrative, you know,
Speaker 1: of of our collective human experience. That if I can
Speaker 1: be at the table, you know, to help people understand
Speaker 1: not only their own power, but also help them navigate
Speaker 1: the way that they manage their stories, that perhaps we
Speaker 1: have a better society and a better human society because
Speaker 1: of that. You know that if I can help people
Speaker 1: the word authentic he's coming up, But if I could
Speaker 1: help people be more authentic, you know. So sometimes I
Speaker 1: have conversations with different artists or you know, creators, and
Speaker 1: the questions always, you know, well, how how do I,
Speaker 1: you know, sell this thing you know, or what is
Speaker 1: the thing that everybody's excited about? And how do I
Speaker 1: get close to that? Thing, and my perpess is always like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not outside, you know. It's like people
Speaker 1: want to connect to whatever you have, you know, the
Speaker 1: deeply embedded thing that is special about you, and that's
Speaker 1: what they actually, that's actually the magic, you know, So
Speaker 1: let's pull that out. And so it often feels like therapy,
Speaker 1: you know. It often feels like conversations where we're talking
Speaker 1: about what is so special and unique about the particular
Speaker 1: project or the person you know that can just be
Speaker 1: highlighted more in a in a in a bigger way,
Speaker 1: and that has been really really wonderful, you know. And
Speaker 1: and so it's like not just the individual people, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the companies and the brands too, and helping helping to
Speaker 1: navigate um, their marketing strategies and vision for what could
Speaker 1: be a really dope society. I think we should call
Speaker 1: our podcast dope society. Yes, that's what we should call it. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm super excited about exploring not only UH people and leadership,
Speaker 1: but important cultural moments and seismic shifts and how we
Speaker 1: can make a new normal a better normal. And um,
Speaker 1: I can't think of anybody who who I'd enjoy spending
Speaker 1: time with Bows and exploring some of these things more
Speaker 1: than you. So I'm super excited about some of the
Speaker 1: conversations we're going to have in the future, and and
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for the conversation we had today as well.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that Katie same here. I'm very excited about
Speaker 1: these conversations we're going to have. Um. Yes, I believe
Speaker 1: we're going to have a Dope Society based on what
Speaker 1: we discussed. And that does it for this episode of
Speaker 1: Next Question. I hope you all got to know Bows
Speaker 1: a little bit better because next week will be the
Speaker 1: first of our special ten episodes series, which we're not
Speaker 1: calling Dope Society, but we are calling back to biz
Speaker 1: with Katie and Bows. I'm really excited to partner with
Speaker 1: Bose so we can explore a lot of meata topics
Speaker 1: in our changing world, like what leadership looks like today,
Speaker 1: what could rise from the ashes of disruption, and lessons
Speaker 1: from our own careers, our successes are failures, and even
Speaker 1: our missteps, including a recent comment I made about an
Speaker 1: interview I've done with Denzel Washington and why many people
Speaker 1: found it offensive. We're looking forward to learning from each
Speaker 1: other and growing in the process. So look out for
Speaker 1: what we're hoping will be important conversations on our Next
Speaker 1: Question feed, which you can find on Apple Podcasts, the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: and for more from me and some of the interesting
Speaker 1: people I get to speak to make sure you sign
Speaker 1: up for my morning newsletter is called wake Up Call,
Speaker 1: and you can do that by going to Katie Couric
Speaker 1: dot com. So until next time and my Next Question,
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Couric, Thanks so much for listening. Next Question
Speaker 1: with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Katie Curreic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik,
Speaker 1: Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.
Speaker 1: Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are
Speaker 1: Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan
Speaker 1: Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher
Speaker 1: is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go
Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com and follow us on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Katie Curk. For more podcasts for My
Speaker 1: Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.