1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to Next Question. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: As you Next Question listeners know, we've dedicated this podcast 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: almost exclusively to covering the coronavirus pandemic as it happened. 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: But now that we've settled into this strange new reality, 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: with much of our daily lives put on hold, it's 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: time to figure out how we start to get to 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: a new normal and find out what that normal even 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: looks like, which is why today I'm gearing up for 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: something new and really exciting, and I'm bringing along a 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: friend to help me. Kay, Hi Katie, you know um 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: Bosma st. John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose work 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: has straddled two worlds, music and pop culture and Silicon Valley. 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: She transforms and guides big name brands like Pepsi, Apple 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: and now Endeavor, where she's chief marketing officer, giving them 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: purpose and personality, making her very much in demand. Thank you, Eddie. 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: In two thousand and sixteen, she was the first black 17 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: woman to present at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, where she 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: managed to rouse the mainly white male audience out of 19 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: their stupor with a giant dance party like this classic 20 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: the Sugarhill Gang. It kind of feels appropriate to get 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: this party started with a little bit of rappers alike. Right, 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: come on, let's listen to something. Come on, y'all, now 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: you recognize me? Right, come on, We're gonna make the 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: whole auditorium rock. It was definitely something those Apple execs 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: had never seen before, and that's pretty much how Bows 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: has excelled her entire career by being her true and 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: fabulous self. I lead with my difference. I don't lead 28 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: with the commonality. You know that I am holly myself 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: in not trying to put on for anyone and still 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: try to manage in an environment which was not built 31 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: for me. Bows is someone I've admired and respected for 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: quite a while, and I'm super excited to share that 33 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: soon she'll be joining me as my co host for 34 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: a special ten episode series about how we can all 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: get back to business biz and Bo's kind of goes together, 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: doesn't it. We'll have more on that later, but today 37 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: I just wanted you to get to know her. There's 38 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot I think we can learn from bows Is 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: life and career and her thoughts on my next question, 40 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: Can this pandemic somehow make us better people. She joined 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: me over Zoom from her home in l A, which 42 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: she shares with her soon to be eleven year old 43 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: daughter Lael. I'm glad to be here. I am feeling 44 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: really good. Uh this morning, at least, this is one 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: of the mornings, so I feel really good. Since Bose 46 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: considers herself a bit of an ant apologist a student 47 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: of human behavior, I wanted to get a read on 48 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: what she thought was happening in this moment, a moment 49 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: where we're seeing the best of humanity but also anger 50 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: and resentment taking over the public square with protesters, songs 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: mass in Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan. You know what it's 52 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: interesting is it reminds me of the stages of grief. 53 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: You know. It's actually what it really reminds me of 54 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: that you know, at the beginning, you are just so 55 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly sad, and you're sort of grabbing onto anything to 56 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: make you feel normal and whole, and you know, you 57 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: just want comfort, right, And I think that's what was 58 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: happening in the beginning, and reaching out to people their facetimes, 59 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: having their Zoom parties. There's like all kinds of things, 60 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, people behaviors that people were exhibiting to UM 61 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: grab onto the familiar, you know, even in the time 62 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: of their of their fear. UM. And then it started 63 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: moving and changing, very much like grief does you know, 64 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: as you're going through the feelings of loss, where that 65 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: turns into the anger you know about that? Why? Why 66 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: why has this happened? Why has it happened to me? 67 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: Less about you? Why has this happened to me? You know? 68 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: And and how can I how can I get control 69 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: of this thing? I'm really upset. I want to make 70 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: sure that everybody knows how upset I am about this, 71 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: and people take that out in different ways, you know. 72 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: And I think there will also come a time, um, 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 1: maybe not that soon, where we will start to see, 74 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,679 Speaker 1: you know, after going through the anger, UM will start 75 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: to see the new behaviors, you know, people creating new 76 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: ways to cope, which will I have. I'm very you know, 77 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: optimistic in that that we will find that people, um 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: will let go of the aleanna ish you know behavior 79 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: that first came in the first wave, you know, of 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: the like kumbaya, everybody hold hands. I will never be 81 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: mean again in life, you know that thought and will 82 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: move through the anger and the you know, distracted conversation 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: around why me and then taking it out on other people, 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: and we will move into a new way of being, 85 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: you know, a new way of living that will be 86 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: much healthier for us. But that also takes awareness, you know, 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: it takes awareness, and it takes an acceptance of the 88 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: loss of the way things were, the loss of innocence, 89 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, about our world and how we behave, and 90 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: it will require people to realize that that's not coming back. 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: You know, that new normal is not coming back. I'm 92 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: sure for you as and for me um. You know, 93 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: having gone through grief, there is that moment where you, oh, man, 94 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: it's a hard moment. But the realization that nothing will 95 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: be what it was, you know, this idea that you're 96 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: going back to normal actually doesn't exist. And so thinking 97 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: about that and figuring out, well, how then do I 98 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: recreate my life, how do I cope? How do I 99 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: move forward? Becomes then your own sort of healing process, 100 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, and then when you actually figure it out, 101 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: that's when you actually start to feel better. You truly 102 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: feel better. It's not again the happy, go lucky thing, 103 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: it's it's actually much deeper. It feels deeper. And so 104 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: that's what I'm hopeful for. You know that our communities 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: and our people in our lives, even myself, you know 106 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,559 Speaker 1: that we get to that place where it's like, Okay, 107 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: here's the reality, uh, and how do I manage my 108 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: life now from now on? And this is when I 109 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: think those leadership is so important to have some kind 110 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: of north star, somebody who is bringing the country together. 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: And sadly, I just think the current leadership, I think 112 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: President Trump is is really kind of using this too 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: for there divide us, which is incredibly upsetting to me 114 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: because when someone asked him about what would you Peter Alexander, 115 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: who I used to work with at NBC, what would 116 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: you say to people who are afraid? What do you 117 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: say to Americans who are watching you right now who 118 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: are scared? I say that you're a terrible reporter, That's 119 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: what I say. I think it's a very nasty question, 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: and I think it's a very bad signal that you're 121 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: putting out to the American that was such a moment 122 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: for him to be a unifying force, for him to 123 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: say this is scary. It's scary for everyone, and this 124 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: is what we need to do instead of b rating, 125 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: taking that opportunity to brate the press. And I think 126 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: that words are really important now. And whether it's George W. 127 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: Bush after nine eleven or President Obama after Sandy Hook 128 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: or FDR during you know, you have nothing, we have 129 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: nothing to fear but fear itself. You know, those are 130 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the moments that are the rallying cry for people too, 131 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: I think want to aspire to better and to to 132 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: think about the common good. And I think there's been 133 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: such a vacuum their bows. It's heartbreaking to me, man, 134 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: I feel overwhelmed even by that, to be honest, But 135 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: there happened leaders emerging bows like you know Andrew Cuomo 136 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: and I think Gavin Knewso the Republican governor of Maryland. 137 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: There there have been these beacons I think of intelligence, 138 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: of calm, of inspiration, of creativity that I think have emerged. 139 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: Don't use yes, absolutely absolutely, and it it really actually 140 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: just drives back to a theory that I've had actually 141 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,599 Speaker 1: for quite some time around leadership UM and the evolution 142 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: of what leadership looks like in this country but really 143 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: all around the world world. You know, in that UM 144 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: for either in business or in politics, probably politics less 145 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: because you know, we're used to seeing the candidate, although 146 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: the candidate or the elected official still feels very much 147 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: like there's a veneer there right that we can't penetrate, 148 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: or has felt like that for a long time, and 149 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: in business very much the same. In that CEOs or 150 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: anyone in the c suite, feels like everything is always scripted, right, 151 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: you have to say it the right way, you have 152 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: to say it in the right cadence um or sometimes 153 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: those people are not known, right, and all you have 154 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: is the brick and mortar building of the brand for 155 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: people to attach with that has completely evaporated, right. I 156 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: feel like over the last twenty years or so, it's 157 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: slowly been coming down, but this moment has erase the 158 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: rest of it. You know, I thought it would take 159 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: us another five or ten years to get to the 160 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: place where we needed full transparency. Will days upon us 161 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: or right now? You know, people want to see the humans. 162 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: You don't care about perfection. I have tried to say 163 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: that again and again and again to every leader that 164 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: you don't have to be perfect. The script doesn't have 165 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: to be perfect. You know, you can use sometimes the 166 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: wrong words because we're all trying to figure this out, 167 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: you know, and right now. One of the ways that 168 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: I've been talking about about this um you know, in 169 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: my work, I'm the chief marketing officer of Endeavor, and 170 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: one of the biggest strategic insights has come out of 171 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: this time is that we want brands to be companions 172 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: to our consumers, right into our audiences. This is not 173 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: necessarily about service. This is not about standing up on 174 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: top of the hill and you know, screaming down on 175 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: the people that you know better that they should come 176 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: to you because you have the perfect solution for whatever 177 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: thing in their lives. This is not that time. People 178 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: want companionship, you know, they want you to sit next 179 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: to them and tell them that you're hurting too, you know, 180 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: and that you are hurting. But here's what I have 181 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: found to help make me better. Maybe you can try it. 182 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: That's what they want to hear. And that that cuts 183 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: across everything. That's not just businesses, that's politics. So you're 184 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: right that moment with President Trump, it wouldn't have mattered, 185 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: you know that what his political leanings are, I wouldn't 186 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if he had answered 187 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: and said, you know, yeah, we're all scared I'm scared. 188 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm scared for the health of my family. I'm scared 189 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: for the health of myself, by the way, and I'm 190 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the best thing is to 191 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: do so that we can all stay safe. I believe 192 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: everyone would have felt better, and he probably would have 193 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: won some points. I think so too. I think so too. 194 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: I think, uh, that just was such a lost opportunity. 195 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: But if someone doesn't feel that in their heart, you know, um, 196 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: you can't. You can't even script that, right, So you can't, 197 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: you can't. But I think you're right. I mean, I 198 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: think that word off senticity has been so overused at 199 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: this point, you know, it's become kind of a buzzword. 200 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: But but I think people are are looking for true 201 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: human emotion. Why are people looking to brands two for comfort? 202 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you just I don't think people ever kind 203 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: of even yearned for that relationship with brands. And I 204 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: think that's such an interesting development in our culture. What 205 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: do you think lead to that those comfort has always existed, 206 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: you know, as a way for brands to communicate with 207 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: our audiences and their consumers. They probably just didn't say 208 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: it that way, you know, And and comfort showed up 209 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: in in many different ways. Yeah, I worked for PepsiCo 210 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: for a long time on their soda businesses, and at 211 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: that time, you know, the the idea was to bring joy, right, 212 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: just pure joy in in five minutes or less. And 213 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: that is some sort of comfort, right, um. But today 214 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: the come furt is in making me feel safe. It's 215 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: in making me feel like I can be just be, 216 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily achieved, just be you know, a k. It 217 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: should feel like, um, information that is safe and reliable. 218 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: You know, that kind of comfort is what people are 219 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: truly looking for. And even the comfort of letting go, 220 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, the comfort in not being bound by any 221 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: expectations that had been set for us before letting go 222 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: is a real comfort that people feel like they need 223 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: permission to do. And so if brands would communicate that 224 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: through their products and services, I think they would find 225 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: more loyalty in this very moment. And sometimes especially in 226 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: times like this, you know, everybody feels like the responsibility 227 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, do something. You know, it's 228 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: like I've got to do something otherwise I'm doing nothing, 229 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: or or I need to help my community otherwise I'm 230 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: doing nothing. I need a fundraise to help the health 231 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: care workers, or I'm doing nothing, you know, And I 232 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: constantly try to remind people that that's that's wonderful, that's 233 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: great if you are able to do that, you know, 234 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: but that's really taking stock. If you are able to 235 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: do that, always take the focus group of one. You know, 236 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: what am I feeling like? Do I have the bandwidth 237 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: to do that? Because if you don't and you fall, 238 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: then we have then we have a problem. You know, 239 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: if you're standing and you're well, and you're healthy, and 240 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: you're stable and mentally ready to help your community and 241 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, go out and help your neighbor, or do 242 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: whatever other thing you would achieve more, learn a new language, 243 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: like do all the things that are expected, you know, 244 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: these high expectations of us, then great, do that. But 245 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: if you're not able to do that, having the permission 246 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: to simply be is really important. And so I've been 247 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: counseling brands and you know, leaders within those brands to 248 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: think about how they can be better comforters to their audiences, 249 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: to their employees, uh and even to their own families. 250 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: Because once we can see that you are human and 251 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: that you're feeling this too, that you're not above all 252 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: of this craziness that's going on, then more people can 253 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: identify with you as a human being. And that's all 254 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: we want. We want our human connection. That's it. There's 255 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: nothing more more with bozemas St. John after the short break. 256 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: Bozeman's St. John is hugely successful. But you know you've 257 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: really made it when your career is the subject of 258 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: a Harvard Business School lass, and hers was this past semester. 259 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: I first heard that they wanted to do it, and 260 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: I thought for a second, like, wow, well does that 261 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: mean I should do I retire now? Like what happens exactly, 262 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: or or somebody trying to tell me something, you know, 263 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: like okay, your your career is done, now go and 264 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: do something else. You know. That's what it feels like. 265 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: It feels like the type of thing that happens when 266 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: somebody feels like you've crested. Uh. And so it was. 267 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: It was actually really weird to feel, um that what 268 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: I had done was quite frankly worthy of a class 269 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: um and also overwhelming, and that that choices that I've made, 270 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, different experiences that I've had within my career 271 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: that other people would be studying, you know, and and 272 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: either having great things to say about it, or maybe 273 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: arguing about it. You know, that felt very It felt 274 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: like it was something again like outside of my control. 275 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: You know. It's like these personal decisions that I've made 276 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: over the course of time. Now we're open to being judged, 277 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: you know, by other people, which is funny because I 278 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: do live a public life. I you know, I'm sure 279 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: there are lots of people who have opinions about moves 280 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: I've made or campaigns I've run. But to think that 281 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: it would be an academic pursuit is something totally different. 282 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: And I have to thank Francis fry Um, who is 283 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: the professor who led the class. Um. She she and 284 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: I actually met at uber so she had been brought 285 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: into essentially help management be better. You know. So at 286 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: the time I joined UM, there was quite a bit 287 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: of upheaval. That's probably a light I was going to say, 288 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: to put it mildly, Yes, yes, upheaval in the management team. 289 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: And she is a extraordinary uh professor in there in 290 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: the Harvard Business School, and so she knows academically how 291 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: to um advise and not just advice, but also set 292 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: up an organization of managers. And so she was brought 293 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: in to do that, um, And so it was it 294 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: was just quite wonderful actually that we both ended up 295 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: at UBER at the same time. And so when she 296 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: upon her leaving, she just said that not only was 297 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: she interested and impressed by the career I've had so far, UM, 298 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: but in leading with difference, you know that I lead 299 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: with my difference. I don't lead with the commonality. You 300 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: know that I am wholly myself in in all those situations, 301 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: and that it was fascinating to see her or to 302 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: see me behave just as myself, not trying to put 303 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: on airs for anyone and still try to manage in 304 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: an environment which was not built for me. And so 305 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: the thesis of her class was about leading with difference 306 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: on how to do that. That's fascinating, and leading with 307 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: difference means, I guess, as if I gathered correctly what 308 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: you were just saying, leading from your pure authentic point 309 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: of view. But what else does leading with difference mean? 310 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: Bows Yeah, leading with difference means that you don't do 311 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: it the textbook away. You know that you are doing 312 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: it your own way, and that is a that is 313 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: something that I wish every leader would do. You know that, um, 314 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: you will use the word authenticity, which you're right, it's overused, 315 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: but it is there's nothing else that can replace it. 316 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: You know that you don't have to be a black 317 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: woman who is from Caldo Springs, Colorado by way of Ghana, 318 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: UM to be different. You know that that even the 319 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: stereotypes of what we have seen as leadership in corporate America, 320 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: UM that if we just looked a little below, you know, 321 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: under the cover a little bit, there'd be something there. 322 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: You know that is that each of them have that 323 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: are different from the other, but that we are not 324 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: and I'm using the air quotes, you know, allowed to 325 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: show our difference when we are leaders, that there is 326 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: some model that we're supposed to be living up to. 327 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: You know that you can't show up on Instagram in 328 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: a bikini as a executive woman because somehow that's not 329 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: the image that people expect of your Yeah. Um, And 330 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily saying that you should go to the 331 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: office and your bikini. I'm just saying right right, Well, 332 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: I I've noticed throughout my career that that I think 333 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: people have a hard time dealing with multi dimentionality, if 334 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: that's a word, someone who is many things, because we 335 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: all are, but I think that we all wear a 336 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: mask for our certain roles and behave a certain way 337 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: that conforms with previously held views of what said role 338 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: was supposed to be. Like if that makes sense. You know, 339 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: and I've seen I've I had challenges in that department 340 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: throughout my career. You know, that you couldn't be funny 341 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: and laugh and have a good time but also when necessary, 342 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: be deadly serious. That somehow, if you exhibited this other 343 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: side of you, or if you you know, went on 344 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: Instagram in a bikini or did something kind of funny 345 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: and silly, that that that meant that you didn't it 346 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: took away from this other side of you, or it 347 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: delegitimized another side of you, which I find fascinating. And 348 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: I think that's what you're saying, that that there have 349 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: been these archetypes that we've had to adhere to for 350 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: various roles because partially, Bose, I think it's because of 351 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the images that we've seen of the people occupying those roles. Yes, 352 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. But one of the reasons that 353 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: I love you is the fan love like love love, 354 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: is that you have been able to balance both of 355 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: those sides in a way that I haven't seen many 356 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: people in the public eye to be able to do. 357 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: You know, I've tried, but I don't think I've always 358 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: been successful. You know. I think that there have been people, 359 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: because they have certain expectations of how someone looks or 360 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: acts or is in a certain role, that they reject 361 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: you if in fact they've seen too much of the 362 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: other side. So I appreciate that that you think that, 363 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: but I think it's been challenging for me throughout my career. 364 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: But I think what I hear you saying, bows is 365 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: that people need to embrace that and use it as 366 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: an asset and be transparent about the many sides of themselves. Exactly, absolutely, 367 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: Because even in that, Katie, you know, even in your 368 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: ability to be funny and silly and then also deliver 369 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: important information that we should take seriously, you have, I've 370 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: created a dimension that we didn't see before. And if 371 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: there are difficulties and challenges and criticisms and all of 372 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: the things, I my desire is that more of us 373 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: would show those things, you know, more of us would 374 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 1: be more would be transparent about that, more of us 375 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: would say damn it, Okay, all right, let me figure 376 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: this out because I didn't. I didn't get that right. 377 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: You know that if we actually said that, we would 378 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: find that there would be so much more. Um, loyalty 379 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: is the wrong word, but it's only one I can 380 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 1: think of. But it's like a loyalty to ourselves. You 381 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: know that that people would also see that. You know 382 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: that if if we if we lead with difference in 383 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: that way, you know that we lead with the truest 384 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: form of ourselves that is very different from what is 385 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: supposed to be, people will actually allow us to be, 386 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: which is such a revolutionary idea. When it comes to leadership, 387 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, and again, it doesn't matter what kind of leadership. 388 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: It can be political, it could be business, it could 389 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: be on the airwaves, it can be anywhere. And that 390 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: if you are out in front and that people can 391 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: see you and people are looking to you. For the example, 392 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: we don't need perfection. We don't even need perfection in 393 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: the multidimensionality. You said that's the word, right, Um that 394 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: you know it's it's like, Okay, I'm a fun person. 395 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: Well do I need to be perfectly fun? I'm a 396 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: serious person. Also, do I need to be perfectly serious? 397 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: It's like, no, The answer is no, there are faults 398 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: in there and that's okay. And I think right now, 399 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: in this very moment, it is where we need to 400 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: be braver about showing those parts that are not perfect, 401 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: even in our multidimensionality, that those imperfections, those mistakes, those 402 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: learnings are all part of this and that is okay, 403 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: and that people will actually accept us if we actually 404 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: showed the truest sense of ourselves. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Um, 405 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: but are there people Bowse that you've seen exhibit exceptional 406 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: leadership during this this time that you look to Because 407 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: people are brands in a way, right, and they're all 408 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: I think, giving showing us sort of how to navigate this. 409 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: They're giving us something to look up to. And I'm 410 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: just curious, in all your dealings talking to people, have 411 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: you seen people and you think, yeah, yeah, they're doing 412 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: this right. Yes, certainly. Like you said, I'm an anthropologist 413 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: of sorts and so, um, I definitely study people and 414 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: I love to see how they behave and how they behave, 415 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: especially in this time. And um, you already mentioned one 416 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: who I think you know was a surprise but came out, Um, 417 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: you know, really wonderfully Governor Cuomo. You know, I just 418 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: think has been phenomenal in this time. Um. And why 419 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: do you think that? I mean, I'd love to hear 420 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: specifically what you've seen. I think his communication style is exceptional, 421 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: you know, in that he delivers information clearly, succinctly, um, 422 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: without frill and so and I'm I'm not sure if 423 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: that's a choice or is just the way that he is. 424 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: Maybe it's the way he is just regularly in his 425 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: day to day dealings. UM. But he doesn't add sugar, 426 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't try to spin. He just says 427 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: what it is. And sometimes it can feel very direct 428 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: and maybe short, but I actually think it it's working. 429 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: You know, it works because people don't want to hear 430 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: the extras the This is the amazing thing. Also just 431 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: a little segue, which is that sometimes I think as leaders, 432 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: we feel the need to be everything. You know that 433 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: that you have to be the comforter and also the 434 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: one who you know, gives the straight talk about all 435 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: the things. And in some in some cases, especially in this, 436 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, delivering the information, you can just do it 437 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: in a way that allows people to understand what you're saying, 438 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: and that's it. You know, you can just choose to 439 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: do that. And that's what he's doing. When you listen 440 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: to his his conferences. Uh, he is very to the point, 441 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: you know. And I especially loved his reaction when uh, 442 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: you know, his his brother, um, and I believe his 443 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: sister in law also contracted the virus um in that 444 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: he at that moment was the big brother. And that's 445 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: what we saw when he told me he had the coronavirus. Uh, 446 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: it scared me. It frightened me. Why because we still 447 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: don't know. Um, we still don't know. And even if 448 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: there's just the one two percent chance, it's frightening. It 449 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: is frightened and frightened me. Uh. And I deal with 450 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff, and I've seen all sorts of things, 451 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: and it frightened me. Why because we're talking about my 452 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: my brother, talking about my little brother. This is my 453 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: best friend. You know, he wasn't just the governor but 454 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: some somebody's big brother. He had some sharp criticisms about 455 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: what his brother was doing. And I had a situation 456 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: with Christopher two weeks ago that I even mentioned my 457 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: mother was at his house, and I said, that is 458 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: a mistake. Now my mother is in a different situation, 459 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: and I just thought it was brilliant. I'm the eldest 460 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: of four girls, you know, in that moment, I identified 461 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: with him, you know, essentially chastising his younger, younger brother 462 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: on TV. It is brilliant. Great again, perhaps that's just 463 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: the way he is, but I thought it was so 464 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: wonderfully human to see that. Um it's it's interesting there. 465 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: So there there are quite a few people. I think 466 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: there are some innovators also who have come up, like 467 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: in pop culture that I think are so fascinating. Um. 468 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, I have talked a little bit about my 469 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: good friend Derek DJ d Nice, who has emerged as 470 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: a leader in music and bringing comfort to people from 471 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: his apartment here in in in l a uh in 472 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: that he has really brought together people using the tools 473 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: that he always uses his turntables, right, he plays good music. 474 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: And I remember the first night that he was going 475 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: to go on and just play music. You know, he 476 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: was just like he just needed something to do, you know, 477 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: he just wanted to keep the sort of the energy 478 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: going and energy flowing, It's what he said. And he 479 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,239 Speaker 1: was like, just come on the live I'm gonna go 480 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: on there. You know, I play for you know, for 481 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: as long as I feel like it. And I think 482 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: that first that he played for five hours Welcome Back, 483 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: there might have been five people in there. You know, 484 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: we were all in the comments going back and forth. 485 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: Then he was like, you know what, I think I'm 486 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: gonna do it again. Tell your friends. And the next 487 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: day it was like two thousand people. The third night 488 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: it was ten thousand people, and it's like, holy where 489 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: did all these people come from? You know, it was crazy. 490 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: And then at his peak, he crested just over a 491 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people to point where it like crashed Instagram. 492 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: They needed to figure out new ways of bandwidth. I mean, 493 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: it was insane, you know. And now it's like he's 494 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: doing these partnerships with Michelle Obama on voting. You know, 495 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: I saw him on some morning shows. Um I think 496 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: he got you know, he's doing some merchandise with Will Smith. 497 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: It was just it's just the wildest thing. But to 498 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: think that someone who is taking his platform, which he 499 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: was simply doing what he always does, you know, which 500 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: he us to do. By the way, he DJ my 501 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: DJ my forty birthday party. And I was, you know, 502 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: trying my best not to sweat out my my hair 503 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: and makeup and it was destroyed that night. So from 504 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: personal experience, I can tell you he's he's really really great. 505 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: But I just find that his leadership, even in this 506 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: moment of just bringing people, um, the gift that he 507 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: has and connecting people is remarkable. Um, it's a It's remarkable, 508 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: you know that that anyone in this time can essentially 509 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: take up the ban of leadership and do it in 510 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: a way that is relevant, it is timely, and it 511 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: is authentic to the word that we've used. You know, 512 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: they're simply using the tools that they've already have. This 513 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: is not about you know, learning French all of a sudden, 514 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, or learning how to play a new instrument, 515 00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: although I've seen you play the piano, and I really 516 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: want to know how to play the piano. But that's 517 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: a whole another conversation. But you know what I mean 518 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: that like this, this is the moment that I've seen 519 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: leaders just become more of who they are and an 520 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: a on a larger platform, and that is remarkably wonderful. 521 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: That's so interesting, you know, both because I had I've 522 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: been making contributions to a lot of organizations and um, 523 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: and yet I feel and I've been sort of visiting 524 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: an elderly gentleman I met at the drug store last 525 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: summer because he lives by himself, to to to make 526 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: sure he's okay. But I said to my friend the 527 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: other day, I really want to get out there and 528 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: do more. And you know, you don't have to to 529 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: wait for other organizations to do something great. I mean, 530 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: I think the fact that everyone has a platform now 531 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: there really aren't the gatekeepers that were once there. And 532 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: one of the great things is you can you can 533 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: do uh, you can do something amazing just yourself, you know, 534 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: whether it's rallying your community, because I think a lot 535 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: of people the need is so great and there's so 536 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: many people who need help. That can be overwhelming to 537 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: like where do I give, even if it's ten dollars 538 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: or twenty dollars or five dollars or a thousand dollars, 539 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: whatever you can do, And sometimes you can just say, hey, 540 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: there's this need in my community. Let's all get together 541 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: and let's all do something for the people in our town, 542 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: you know, or let's all start a fund for all 543 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: the grocery store workers that are putting themselves at risk 544 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: every day. Um, you know I think that still, we 545 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: sometimes wait for something bigger to tell us what to do, 546 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: to instruct us where we can actually just do it ourselves. Yes, 547 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And um, you know it's so interesting. 548 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: I have recently begun to run outside. Uh six months ago. 549 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: You could not have made me run for a mile 550 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: or more. There's no way. I mean, I'm like, am 551 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: i am I running from a bear? Okay, but just 552 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: like running for fun? I don't think so. Um, but 553 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: I started to run in my neighborhood. Um, usually very early, 554 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: you know, it's like literally around dawn or so, and 555 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: no one is no one is awake. But it feels 556 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: fresh and it feels rejuvenating to me. And I don't 557 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: know who this person is. I'm assuming it's a child. Um, 558 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: but they've written messages on the sidewalk, you know, like 559 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: these just little positive messages and you know sometimes the 560 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: ray bows and keep going and one more step and 561 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: I just I literally, I mean I was so emotional 562 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: the first of my side. I literally cried, you know, 563 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: like stopped on the sidewalk and cried and I just thought, wow, 564 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: like that is such a wonderful thing. You know that 565 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: right now we all have that the ability to create 566 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: in this moment, and but I do want a caveat 567 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: and saying that, you know, this is very much like 568 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: every other scenario, which is that if you are not well, 569 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: you can't help other people be well, you know, And 570 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: so we do have to pay attention to ourselves and 571 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: make sure that we're also not over extending. And that's 572 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: not just you know, for us sort of in the community, 573 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: that's for the leadership too. And that's like leaders like 574 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: are you peaceful? Are you saying are you feeling healthy? 575 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: Not just physically but emotionally, you know, before you take 576 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: on the added things. And by the way, I think, 577 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: how amazing would it be if if any one of 578 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: our leaders said that they were really having a hard 579 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: time emotionally, you know, right now, and they would use 580 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: themselves as the example on how to even engage on wellness. 581 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: Like that's that's the next thing I'm waiting for, you know, 582 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: who's going to do? I do? I do feel like 583 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: you're starting to see those walls kind of start to 584 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: come tumbling down, if not with leaders, but with celebrities 585 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: or personalities who are being incredibly transparent about their emotional state, 586 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna you're going to see that more. 587 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it gets tricky because it's such 588 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: a thin line, our fine line, I think bows between 589 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: doing something out of a place of honesty and transparency 590 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: and doing something out of a place of uh of 591 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: where there might be ulterior motives, right, And I think 592 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: people can sniff that out so quickly. And you know, 593 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: I think it's all about when you're talking about greenwashing. 594 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, companies that care about environmental sustainability, do they 595 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: really care about environmental sustainability or are they doing that 596 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: because they think they should care about environmental sustainability. And 597 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: I think that's that's such a tricky thing because I 598 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: think with the world being flat in terms of social media, 599 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: people can can I think, become very cynical. Right, So 600 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: I think you have all these different forces that work, 601 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: so you have to I'm sure you consider that when 602 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: you're talking to brands, like what is their true north? Then? 603 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it true? Or is it is it 604 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: a way to manipulate consumers into seeing things their way? Right? 605 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: I mean that must be tricky. Yes, that is very tricky. 606 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: It is probably the trickiest you know, because there's this 607 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: belief that you can't switch lanes or you can't switch 608 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: gears because people would think that we're being fake, you know, 609 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: And the council that I give constantly is that, what 610 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: what what is your reason for doing it? You know, 611 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: if it if it is not authentic, you know, if 612 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: it's not true, then yeah, of course you're doing the 613 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: wrong thing. Okay, it's like it's really that simple, you know. 614 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: But if you are doing it for the right reasons, 615 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: if you had a you know, sudden, like you know, 616 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: ootional reaction to the ways that maybe your business is 617 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: dealing with this very moment in time, and you decided 618 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: that you wanted to send out a different message, you 619 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: wanted to create something new, you know, maybe you want 620 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: to shut down a plant and makes a hand sanitizer instead. 621 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: Then do that, you know, do that, and it's almost like, 622 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: you know, forget what the critics say, you know, don't 623 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: worry about how people are going to interpret it. But 624 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: are you going to sleep better at night? You know, 625 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: are you going to feel like you contributed that you 626 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: did all that you could do right now? If you do, 627 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: then great, do that. Please don't worry about what everybody 628 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: else is going to say, you know, we'll all have critics, 629 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: all of us. All of us have critics one way 630 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: or another, you know. But if you really feel like 631 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: you're doing the right thing with the right information that 632 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: you have at this moment, and you can make a 633 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: difference and you feel like you should you can do 634 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: that with your company, then please do it, you know, 635 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: And that is that is what I counsel all the time. 636 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: And other words, don't overthink it, don't overthink it. Please, yes, act, 637 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: just do it. When we come back, Bozeman and I 638 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: share a certain bond you'll find out after this. Now 639 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: back to my conversation with Bozma. Saint John Bose, you've 640 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: had such an interesting career and you're only forty three 641 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: years old, and give us your quick cv UM in 642 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: terms of I know you went to to Wesleyan, you 643 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: grew up in Colorado Springs. Your family, your parents are 644 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: both from Ghana and UM, and you've always loved popular culture. 645 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: So take it from there. Yeah, okay, So graduating from Wesleyan, 646 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: I moved to New York City. UM got a job 647 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: as Spike Lee's assistant at his advertising agency, which is 648 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: called Spike d D Bus a joint venture with d 649 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: dB Needham, which is the one of the large advertising 650 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: agencies in Madison Avenue, and I fell in love, you know, 651 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: with advertising and marketing. I was supposed to go into 652 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: med school, but um that pop culture thing, it's a bug, 653 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: you know. It got under my skin and into my 654 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: heart and out of my pores, and I couldn't get 655 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: rid of it. So there you go. I UM I 656 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: began working there, I guess as an assistant and then 657 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: quickly graduated to being a coordinator. And by the time 658 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: I left there four years later, UM I was helping 659 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: to win the big accounts like the Pepsi, which actually 660 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: became the next job that I did. Went to Pepsi 661 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: and ran um a few of the brands for about 662 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: a decade, including Pepsi and Mountain Dew and Aquafina. There 663 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: was a flavor splash and there for a quick moment. 664 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: It's defunct now not my fault. But had a really 665 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: great time at Pepsi and and it's actually where I 666 00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: I believe the the inflection point came for me, uh 667 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: and in my marketing career, because I realized that the 668 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: convergence of what I loved about pop culture and what 669 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: could happen from a business standpoint really converged, and so 670 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: I began a group, a new group within the marketing 671 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: organization at PEPSI called the Music Entertainment Division that I 672 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: ran for a number of years and it it UM 673 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: all sort was responsible for partnerships with the NFL and 674 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of other big leagues and big 675 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: entertainment platforms. But one of the most notable partnerships that 676 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: I did at that time was with Beyonce for her 677 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: Super Bowl hattime ship performance. That it um and it 678 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: was a really wonderful moment because it was the first 679 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: time a black woman had been on that stage in 680 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: a decade since Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, and m that 681 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: was very, very hard fought and I felt extraordinarily proud, 682 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, of the moment and that Beyonce really just 683 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that woman took over the stage and there 684 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: was no denying, you know, that someone like her could 685 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: entertain a very large audience. But in any case, that 686 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: that inspired me um to just continue on the path 687 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: of pop culture and finding the convergence. But um, as 688 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: as with many people, you know, sometimes life gets in 689 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: into your grand plans. UM. And about eight months after 690 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: you know that performance with Beyonce, my husband's UM cancer 691 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: had been diagnosed as terminal and I had to focus, 692 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: you know, all my energy on his survival UM. But 693 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: unfortunately he did not survive his cancer, and when he 694 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: passed away a couple of months later, it was a 695 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,439 Speaker 1: you know, reflection point for me to try and figure 696 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: out what I really want to do. You know, I 697 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: had a four year old and did to continue to 698 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: support and life that I needed to get back to 699 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: UM and also an unapologetic love of my work, you 700 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: know that UM. I really wanted to get back to 701 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: it something that made me feel good, and I took 702 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: a really big chance at the time, which now in 703 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: retrospect maybe doesn't look like a big chance, but as 704 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: sure as hell was. I left PEPSI after the decade 705 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: and moved from New York to California, where I joined 706 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: Jimmy Ivan and Dr Dre as they were launching a 707 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: new division of their company, Beats by Dre. They started 708 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: Beats Music, which was a music streaming service, and I 709 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: had no idea what the hell I was doing, but 710 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: but it sounded good, you know, It's like something something 711 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: big and UH exciting and something to figure out, you know, 712 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: that could pour all my energy into. And a few 713 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: months after I joined the company, UM, we worked to 714 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: be acquired by Apple. Uh. And then I threw all 715 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: of my energy into UM sunsetting Beats music and building 716 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 1: Apple Music, which then I did for another few years. UH. 717 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: And then another inflection point, you know, being in tech 718 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: and being a black woman in tech had sparked something. 719 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,799 Speaker 1: You know, there was interest in what leadership could look 720 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,439 Speaker 1: like for somebody quote unquote different in that space. And 721 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions around how I could connect 722 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: with tech audiences, especially following my Apple dubbed d C 723 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: performance where I UM showed the world the new interface 724 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: of Apple Music. And there was a lot of I 725 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 1: think speculation before that about whether or not someone who 726 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,800 Speaker 1: was not Steve Jobs, someone who you know, it was 727 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: not a white man wearing jeans and a button down 728 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: shirt or a black turtleneck, if they could connect to 729 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 1: a wide audience that's a tech based audience. And we 730 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: prove that that is true. UM. And so in the 731 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: middle of that, I met Vis Kalinik, who is the 732 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: who is the founder of Uber and he was going 733 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: through some slight troubles at the time, and he um, 734 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: he and I met and talked for hours about you know, 735 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: what Uber could do to be a catalyst for change. Actually, 736 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, it was my position that it wasn't so 737 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: much about apologizing and looking backwards, but how could the 738 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: company as a poster child for everything that was wrong, 739 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, with sexual harassment or behavior against women and 740 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: lack of diversity, Like, how could that company be the 741 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: poster child as a catalyst, you know, for change in tech? 742 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: Um and I did that for a year, but so 743 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 1: so clearly, just to interrupt for two seconds posed obviously 744 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: that would have been quite a turnaround. But was it 745 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: just too deeply embedded in the DNA of that company 746 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: too to be the change they wished to see? Nice? 747 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: Nice one there. I like that because I really it's 748 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: a good thing. I mean, I really, yes, I love 749 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 1: but that's literally one of my favorites because it's truly 750 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,320 Speaker 1: about being you know, which I I truly love and 751 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: and believe deeply. But you're right, I think there was 752 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: so much going against the company. Um. You know, it 753 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: was interesting to see the victual that was aimed at 754 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: the company for what I felt were ills that were 755 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: at every company, you know that I couldn't see. I 756 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: couldn't in my experience, there hadn't been one company that 757 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: had all the solutions you know that was a warm 758 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: place for people of color, you know, to feel like 759 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,839 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, is there a Valhalla? Because 760 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: if there is, show me and I will actually go there. 761 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: But I have not found it. Um So that was 762 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 1: a big challenge when I think that just in general, 763 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: there were so many management changes at the time, couldn't 764 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: find its footing. You know that if if there was 765 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: more time and more allowance, you know, to be able 766 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: to correct that, I perhaps could have um stayed. But 767 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, there were a lot of different inputs, but 768 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: mostly just you know the fact that, um, I felt 769 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: that my view of what needed to happen and the 770 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: company's view of what needed to happen we're not aligned. 771 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 1: And um you know, it's one of those decisions that 772 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: I've made that I was not sure if it was 773 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,720 Speaker 1: right at the time, but I'm sure it's how glad 774 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:30,320 Speaker 1: I made the choice to leave, now you know. Um yeah, yeah, 775 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: well so it led me to where I am today. 776 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:39,239 Speaker 1: And yes, yes, yes, what is it about it that 777 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 1: you that you like so much. Well, endeavor is like 778 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: the center of all things pop culture, all the things 779 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: that I have loved, you know, in life and in 780 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: my career, whether it's music or film or books or 781 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,720 Speaker 1: oh gosh, commentary, politics, you know, the whole thing, everything, 782 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,800 Speaker 1: um and I really enjoy the thought of and also 783 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,839 Speaker 1: the action of creating messaging, whether it's large, you know, 784 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: on big theater screens or it is small on social 785 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: media screens, that helped to evolve the narrative, you know, 786 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: of of our collective human experience. That if I can 787 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: be at the table, you know, to help people understand 788 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: not only their own power, but also help them navigate 789 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:35,360 Speaker 1: the way that they manage their stories, that perhaps we 790 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: have a better society and a better human society because 791 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 1: of that. You know that if I can help people 792 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: the word authentic he's coming up, But if I could 793 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: help people be more authentic, you know. So sometimes I 794 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: have conversations with different artists or you know, creators, and 795 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: the questions always, you know, well, how how do I, 796 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, sell this thing you know, or what is 797 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: the thing that everybody's excited about? And how do I 798 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: get close to that? Thing, and my perpess is always like, no, 799 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,919 Speaker 1: it's not, it's not outside, you know. It's like people 800 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: want to connect to whatever you have, you know, the 801 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: deeply embedded thing that is special about you, and that's 802 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: what they actually, that's actually the magic, you know, So 803 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: let's pull that out. And so it often feels like therapy, 804 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 1: you know. It often feels like conversations where we're talking 805 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: about what is so special and unique about the particular 806 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: project or the person you know that can just be 807 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: highlighted more in a in a in a bigger way, 808 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: and that has been really really wonderful, you know. And 809 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: and so it's like not just the individual people, but yeah, 810 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: the companies and the brands too, and helping helping to 811 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,359 Speaker 1: navigate um, their marketing strategies and vision for what could 812 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: be a really dope society. I think we should call 813 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:55,400 Speaker 1: our podcast dope society. Yes, that's what we should call it. Well, 814 00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm super excited about exploring not only UH people and leadership, 815 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 1: but important cultural moments and seismic shifts and how we 816 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: can make a new normal a better normal. And um, 817 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: I can't think of anybody who who I'd enjoy spending 818 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: time with Bows and exploring some of these things more 819 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 1: than you. So I'm super excited about some of the 820 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: conversations we're going to have in the future, and and 821 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,320 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for the conversation we had today as well. 822 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: I appreciate that Katie same here. I'm very excited about 823 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 1: these conversations we're going to have. Um. Yes, I believe 824 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: we're going to have a Dope Society based on what 825 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:46,920 Speaker 1: we discussed. And that does it for this episode of 826 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: Next Question. I hope you all got to know Bows 827 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 1: a little bit better because next week will be the 828 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: first of our special ten episodes series, which we're not 829 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: calling Dope Society, but we are calling back to biz 830 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: with Katie and Bows. I'm really excited to partner with 831 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,240 Speaker 1: Bose so we can explore a lot of meata topics 832 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: in our changing world, like what leadership looks like today, 833 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,320 Speaker 1: what could rise from the ashes of disruption, and lessons 834 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: from our own careers, our successes are failures, and even 835 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 1: our missteps, including a recent comment I made about an 836 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: interview I've done with Denzel Washington and why many people 837 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,239 Speaker 1: found it offensive. We're looking forward to learning from each 838 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: other and growing in the process. So look out for 839 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: what we're hoping will be important conversations on our Next 840 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: Question feed, which you can find on Apple Podcasts, the 841 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,919 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts, 842 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,400 Speaker 1: and for more from me and some of the interesting 843 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,520 Speaker 1: people I get to speak to make sure you sign 844 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: up for my morning newsletter is called wake Up Call, 845 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,800 Speaker 1: and you can do that by going to Katie Couric 846 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 1: dot com. So until next time and my Next Question, 847 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm Katie Couric, Thanks so much for listening. Next Question 848 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart Radio 849 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,959 Speaker 1: and Katie Curreic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik, 850 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 851 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 1: Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are 852 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,280 Speaker 1: Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan 853 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher 854 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go 855 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,280 Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com and follow us on Twitter 856 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: and Instagram at Katie Curk. For more podcasts for My 857 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 858 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.