1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,759
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's election as president could mean a major shift

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,519
Speaker 1: in priorities at the Department of Justice. Under President Obama,

3
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,480
Speaker 1: the department pursued voting rights cases, investigated police departments over

4
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,160
Speaker 1: alleged civil rights abuses, favored lighter sentences for non violent

5
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: drug crimes, and fought for gay and transgender rights. Trump

6
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:23,040
Speaker 1: has called for renewed surveillance on mosques, praised stop and

7
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: frisk police tactics, and said he wants a special prosecutor

8
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: to investigate Hillary Clinton. Even at a department used to

9
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,560
Speaker 1: shifting directions when a new administration takes over, the changes

10
00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,519
Speaker 1: could be dramatic. We'll talk about them today with two

11
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,199
Speaker 1: veterans of the Justice Department. William Yeoman's a law professor

12
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 1: at American University and a longtime lawyer in the Civil

13
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,280
Speaker 1: Rights Division of the Justice Department. He also worked for

14
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,360
Speaker 1: Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy and Viet Nn a Washington lawyer

15
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,360
Speaker 1: at Kirkland and Ellis who also teaches at Georgetown Law

16
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 1: and served as an assistant Attorney General in the George W.

17
00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 1: Bush administration, And by way of disclosure, Uh Michael best Uh,

18
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 1: who's a co host of course, UH used to work

19
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: in the administration of Rudy Giuliani, who is one of

20
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 1: the people being mentioned for Attorney general. That was when uh,

21
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,040
Speaker 1: he was mayor of New York. Bill, let's start with you.

22
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 1: I know you have a lot of concerns about what

23
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,319
Speaker 1: President elect Trump might mean for law enforcement and the

24
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 1: Justice Department. Start with just one. What is your top

25
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: worry right now? Um, Well, I would say, uh, we'll

26
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,399
Speaker 1: get to the policy changes eventually, but my top concern

27
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 1: right now is, UM that I hope the President elect

28
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,200
Speaker 1: will understand the unique position of the Department of Justice

29
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 1: in our government. Uh. It is an institution. It is

30
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,840
Speaker 1: a great institution, but a very powerful institution and one

31
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: in which the rule of politics really has to be minimized. Uh.

32
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 1: The the administration of Justice should be to the extent

33
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 1: possible and beyond politics. And in that regard, I think

34
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 1: it's extremely important for the President elect to select someone

35
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 1: who can have some independence. Uh. There is a tradition

36
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,240
Speaker 1: of independence and the Department of Justice from the White House. UH,

37
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 1: and I think I think it's extremely important here, particularly

38
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,280
Speaker 1: after what's been a historically divisive campaign. UM. I think

39
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 1: it's important for Trump to single to to signal some

40
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 1: moderation and some understanding of the role of the Department

41
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 1: of Justice. UM. You know, I think the selection of

42
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon as his one of his principal advisors did

43
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 1: not send that kind of signal. UM. And and uh

44
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: so I worry very much about that, and particularly when

45
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,960
Speaker 1: when during the campaign we've had these calls for a

46
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 1: special prosecutor to go after Hillary Clinton. UM, we've had

47
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 1: he has said that he wants to do waterboarding and worse. Um.

48
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 1: These are these are things that UM, I think, UM,

49
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,000
Speaker 1: we really have to raise concerns about the direction of

50
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: the the Department of Justice and on on policy changes.

51
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,640
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm very concerned about civil rights justice. The

52
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,240
Speaker 1: Justice Department's positions often change when another party takes over.

53
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,520
Speaker 1: So there was a change when Obama became president after

54
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,359
Speaker 1: George W. Bush. Will this be very different from what

55
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,680
Speaker 1: we saw from the Justice Department under Bush. Um. Every

56
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,640
Speaker 1: single new president comes with a transition plan, and I

57
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: think that the President elect will have the same type

58
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,200
Speaker 1: of plan for the Department Justice as huh every previous

59
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 1: the president. I think that the President elect, having suffered

60
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 1: through this election and the UH and the pravails with

61
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 1: the Department of justice, Uh, and the failure of leadership.

62
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 1: There will be very mindful of the lesson that the

63
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,360
Speaker 1: bill has recounted, which is the Department Justice should be strong,

64
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: it should be independent, and it should be free from

65
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 1: the political resistitutes of the day. That said, I think

66
00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 1: there's significant room uh the fortune change and for improvement

67
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 1: in the both in civil justice and criminal justice enforcement.

68
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: And that's what the new Attorney general will uh lead

69
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 1: effort to to redirect the hugre eighty thousand people who

70
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: were from department Bill. You mentioned politicization. Um, isn't that

71
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,640
Speaker 1: something that is both sides have contributed to over the years. Uh.

72
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,160
Speaker 1: You know, you look back at the campaign and you

73
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: have issues like Loretta Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton on

74
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: the plane. Uh. Certainly Republicans were saying the whole way

75
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: of handling the Hillary Clinton email probe was very politicized. Uh.

76
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 1: How how do we get out of this? Um? Well,

77
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 1: first starters, we get out of it by appointing someone

78
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,360
Speaker 1: as Attorney general who really is above reproach UM, whose

79
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 1: uh qualifications and um and integrity no one can question um.

80
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 1: But second, I think there there will inevitably be people

81
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,560
Speaker 1: with political agendas accusing the Department of Justice of being political.

82
00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,720
Speaker 1: That doesn't always mean that it's true. UM. I think

83
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,040
Speaker 1: that one of one of the things to keep in

84
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,599
Speaker 1: mind about the Department of Justice is that there is

85
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,400
Speaker 1: a large core of career lawyers who worked there and

86
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 1: who worked there from administration to administration, and who understand

87
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 1: the institution, who for the most part, are very committed

88
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,479
Speaker 1: to the rule of law. Uh. They understand that when

89
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,279
Speaker 1: there's a political change, UM, the the new political people

90
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: have the power, the authority to change priorities, to change policies.

91
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 1: But uh, they they they hold fast to the notion

92
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 1: that their job is too in a neutral way. Uh,

93
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 1: look at the facts and look at the law and

94
00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,039
Speaker 1: make calls. UM. So I think that, UM, the career attorneys,

95
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,919
Speaker 1: if they are left to do their jobs, can be

96
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,560
Speaker 1: a real check on the politicization of the department. One

97
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 1: of the one of the the problems that can happen

98
00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 1: is when the political um forces decided they want to

99
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 1: politicize the career lawyers. Uh. And we've we've we've had

100
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,479
Speaker 1: attempts at that, um and uh it has never worked

101
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 1: out well. And UM, I recall you know, one one

102
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 1: one thing, one thing Bill, though. I mean, I think

103
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,200
Speaker 1: you're right that the career staff of the Department UH

104
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,160
Speaker 1: is a very very good resource for the political leadership.

105
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,279
Speaker 1: But you know, the failures of the of the process

106
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 1: and leadership we saw over the summer UH was not

107
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,719
Speaker 1: necessarily limited to political leadership, and so there's always a

108
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 1: danger of the failure of control, whether or not it

109
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 1: is at the political level or at the career level.

110
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,480
Speaker 1: I think that there that there just needs to be

111
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 1: the consistency, transparency, UH and independence wherever that comes from

112
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 1: and uh uh and applied across the board. Yeah, we

113
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 1: only have about thirty seconds left. But do you think,

114
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 1: for instance, that the Justice Department is going to continue

115
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 1: with all the investigations of police departments that has going

116
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,039
Speaker 1: on right now? I think, what where there are real

117
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,479
Speaker 1: uh the dangers of civil rights violations, where there are

118
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 1: the rights of Americans at stake, that the Department will

119
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: and should continue to to investigate. And one of the

120
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 1: but one of the key things the department does is

121
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 1: not just investigate, but also mediate be the translator of

122
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: the policy so that we don't have the conflagrations UH

123
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 1: the rather we have attempts to work together as a

124
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 1: community viet UM. I think one thing that's concerning folks

125
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 1: on the left is you have a combination of a

126
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 1: president elect who has suggested he will go after political

127
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 1: opponents like Hillary Clinton, and you have Republicans who are

128
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 1: going to be in control basically of the entire government

129
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 1: both houses of Congress. They're soon going to have a

130
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 1: Republican appointees, will soon have a majority on the Supreme

131
00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 1: Court again. UM. Who is going to be the watch

132
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 1: against the Trump Justice Department to make sure it doesn't

133
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: abuse it's its authority. I think that the Department of

134
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,120
Speaker 1: Justice has a very proud and consistent tradition of upholding

135
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 1: justice without regard to partisanship or political the favoritism. I

136
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 1: think Bill is right that we need a strong leader

137
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 1: at the Attorney General UH. And I think that that

138
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: institutional check UH is the most significant UH the the

139
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 1: control on the process. Ultimately the president UH having a

140
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,400
Speaker 1: point to the Attorney General UH is politically accountable to

141
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 1: the American people not to abuse the system. I do

142
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 1: think that that the UH, the the American people are

143
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 1: very very cognizant of the special place that the Department

144
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,319
Speaker 1: UH holds in American life. UH and it's reticence to

145
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 1: enter American political UH the debates. I think that there

146
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,719
Speaker 1: is a twin desire UH not to politicize crime nor

147
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 1: to criminalize politics. And I think that the UH, having

148
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 1: gone through the campaign, I think everybody is very mindful

149
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: that we should do neither. Bill can I just can

150
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 1: I just say that I very much appreciate the statement.

151
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's wonderful, and I hope

152
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 1: it's true. But it seems to me that we don't

153
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 1: really have the facts that we can extrapolate from to

154
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 1: get to that conclusion. It's been a campaign where I

155
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 1: think the rule of law was very much threatened, and

156
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: I think it is not at all clear where the

157
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 1: checks will come unless we do have an exceptional attorney

158
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 1: general who can stand up to the White House and

159
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: say no, Bill. There is an indication from what Trump

160
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 1: has said and from what legal nielste said, that he'll

161
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,599
Speaker 1: be taking a more hands off approach, leaving enforcement to

162
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 1: local authorities. Will that result in a patchwork of police

163
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,960
Speaker 1: enforcement across the country from over zealous perhaps two lacks? Yeah,

164
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 1: I think I think mostly lacks. I mean the the

165
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 1: Obama administration, of course, has been much more aggressive than

166
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 1: past administrations in UM going after police officers who have

167
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: violated people's constitutional rights, and those investigations UM have in

168
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,439
Speaker 1: many cases been very successful frequently and this goes back

169
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,520
Speaker 1: to a point that Viat was making earlier. UM. Those

170
00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,320
Speaker 1: investigations are follow ups to investigations that were conducted in

171
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: prior administrations where there was no lawsuit filed. So what's

172
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 1: happened is the Obama administration has been much more aggressive

173
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 1: in filing suit and seeking consent decrees UH, and most

174
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,839
Speaker 1: of these have have followed horrific shootings UM killing by

175
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 1: police officers. And I think that it is a it

176
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,839
Speaker 1: is a legitimate concern to be worried that a Trump

177
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 1: administration will back off from from these investigations. And I

178
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 1: think that sends very much the wrong message to a

179
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: country that has very divided over issues of UM policing

180
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: of minority communities. What's your what's your take on that?

181
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 1: Should we be concerned that the Trump administration will back

182
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 1: off on police misconduct and voting rights abuses? To add

183
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,680
Speaker 1: another issue? No, But I think the larger the larger

184
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 1: point here is that we have lived through about three

185
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: decades of fertilization of crime. The policing and criminal prosecution

186
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,679
Speaker 1: has traditionally historically been a province of local UH and

187
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 1: state prosecutors because because they know their communities best and

188
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: they are most politically accountable to their community. I think

189
00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,559
Speaker 1: that the the over federialization of crime, the will the

190
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: inevitably abb and I think that the Trump administrations and

191
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: and as to many Democrats, agree with the UH, with

192
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 1: the the devolving some of that authority back to the

193
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 1: states and to local the UH and to local authorities

194
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 1: where they're where there are violations of civil rights and

195
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: UH of constitutional rights. I think the federal government can

196
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 1: and should not continue you to investigate and intervene with

197
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 1: I think, well, now there should be more trust on

198
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: local government, both in terms of the substance and the

199
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: process of policing. We will have to leave it there.

200
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,439
Speaker 1: I want to thank our guests, vietnn Uh, a lawyer

201
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 1: at Kirkland and Ellis, and Bill Yeoman's professor at American University,

202
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 1: talking about Donald Trump and the Justice Department