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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from house Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com a little Welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about a subject

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling is near and dear to many

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Speaker 1: of our listeners, hearts and hands. Because whenever we periscope, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, we're real high tech live streaming kinds of gals. True,

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Speaker 1: whenever we get on that old periscope, there are always

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Speaker 1: at least a few stuff Mom never told you fans

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Speaker 1: watching us while they are knitting or crocheting. I know,

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Speaker 1: what a great combo of activities, creating something and then

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Speaker 1: like listening to us chatter. And we've also received from

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Speaker 1: time to time some hand knit presents from listeners, which

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Speaker 1: are always so special because obviously it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of time and care to knit something, much less go

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Speaker 1: to the post office and send it, unless you're using

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Speaker 1: stamps dot com, which of course we urge you to. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we Yeah, we have a lot of knitters in

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Speaker 1: our audience. And Caroline, have you ever tried knitting before? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So um. I'm generally not used to people taking me seriously,

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Speaker 1: but when I was in college, I was dating this

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Speaker 1: weirdo whose mother was like real sweet and all she

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Speaker 1: wanted was for her weird as send to date a

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Speaker 1: normal girl, and he was. And that should say something

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Speaker 1: that I'm like a normal girl in this situation. And

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Speaker 1: when I was over one time at her house with

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend for for dinner, I mentioned, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've alway kind of really wanted to knit, but you know,

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Speaker 1: again not used to people like taking me seriously when

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Speaker 1: I say things like that, because to me, like being

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Speaker 1: like I kind of want to learn to knit, it's

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of like I kind of want to learn

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Speaker 1: to like be a tight roab walker, like that could

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Speaker 1: be cool, but I have no natural balance, so I'm

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Speaker 1: in no danger of actually learning anyway. For Christmas, she

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Speaker 1: got me a how to knit book that came with

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Speaker 1: its own thing of yarn and plastic knitting needles. And

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Speaker 1: I was so excited because I'm like, oh, well, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is like so thoughtful. Someone actually listened to my

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Speaker 1: weird whims and everything, and so I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people listen to your weird whims now. Um, So anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I opened the book,

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Speaker 1: I get the yarn ready, and step number one, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's already too hard, Like how do I do the not?

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Speaker 1: And then they show you the steps. I need to

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Speaker 1: watch YouTube videos, like I think that would be the

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Speaker 1: more productive way for me to learn, because trying to

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Speaker 1: learn from pictures of people holding yarn and like wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: I need a picture between one and two? How did

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Speaker 1: you get from one to two? Like what did you

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Speaker 1: do with that? Not? I'm lost. And so I've never

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Speaker 1: tried to learn again because I'm really not like a

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Speaker 1: I don't you know if I fail all, I don't

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Speaker 1: really necessarily try try again. I have experienced the exact

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Speaker 1: same knitting intimidation because not only are the illustrations or

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Speaker 1: photos hard to follow sometimes, but immediately almost from step one,

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Speaker 1: they are speaking in their own language as well, because

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Speaker 1: there's a whole vocabulary to knitting. And I think I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned on the podcast before that I used to cross

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Speaker 1: stitch and crochet all the time as a child because

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Speaker 1: I grew up in little house in the prairie. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, um, but when I attempted to learn

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Speaker 1: knitting when I was in college, I just what I

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Speaker 1: really wasn't able to because I'm left handed and my

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Speaker 1: friend who was teaching me is right handed, and I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: We couldn't kind of flip it that way. But you

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Speaker 1: should have done it across from each other right then

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Speaker 1: it would have looked the same. Probably in a year

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Speaker 1: or something, I don't know, So I'm sure our listener

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Speaker 1: is probably have some suggestions on perhaps easier ways to

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Speaker 1: get started knitting. Oh, you know what I want to do?

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Speaker 1: What I want to do that thing that I see

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Speaker 1: on Pinterest all the time, which is like, uh hip,

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Speaker 1: young women like hand quote unquote hand knitting those blankets.

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Speaker 1: They use their arms as knitting needles with this huge

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Speaker 1: chunky like big giant fabric strips of yarn things staines. See.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the in group language. I think fabric

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Speaker 1: strips of yarn things is the official term. Perfect. I'm

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Speaker 1: glad I'm on the ball. But doesn't it give you

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Speaker 1: such an appreciation for the people who can knit? I'm

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Speaker 1: in awe of it, honestly, I know. Well, I'm just

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Speaker 1: impressed with anyone who gets over that first hump of like,

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Speaker 1: how do you get from step one to step two?

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Speaker 1: I sure don't know. Well, another intimidating factor when it

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Speaker 1: comes to knitting. Is it's intricate history. Yeah, because us

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Speaker 1: a lot of histories of knitting, say, well, it goes

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Speaker 1: back a really long time. We're not exactly sure when

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Speaker 1: we thought it was this certain point, but it turns

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Speaker 1: out that wasn't knitting, that was something else. Um, but

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Speaker 1: we do know generally speaking that knitting emerged in the

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Speaker 1: Islamic world between the ninth and eleventh centuries, and it

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Speaker 1: probably started with Arab men making fishing nets. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: this hilarious huff Po column about the history of knitting,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's it's written in the way that like

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Speaker 1: your smartass friend would talk to you, and it's hilarious.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, this the writer was talking about how it

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Speaker 1: likely the technology, so to speak, or the technique probably

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Speaker 1: got to start from people who were trying to weave

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Speaker 1: together these fishing nets to have a more productive, uh

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Speaker 1: fish catching expedition. And then next thing you know, they're

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Speaker 1: making sweaters. Yeah, so from fishing nets to turtlenecks. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean, I feel like a

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Speaker 1: fishing nets sweater could be fashionable. Maybe if you belt it.

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Speaker 1: All you need to do cut a hole in it.

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Speaker 1: You got a poncho, like you said, belt it but

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Speaker 1: a bang, but very briefly and year after the racest.

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Speaker 1: But I was surprised to see that it was ninth

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Speaker 1: to eleven centuries when it emerged, because I assumed that

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Speaker 1: it stretched back to ancient history, because oh, what about

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Speaker 1: the Odyssey with Penelope sitting there knitting a funeral shop girl?

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Speaker 1: She was not. She wasn't knitting not, did I not realize?

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Speaker 1: Was weaving? She was weaving, yeah, because she had to

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Speaker 1: weave on the on the loom, and then every night

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Speaker 1: she undid it because that was how she staved off

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Speaker 1: of her suitors. She was like, oh, I'll pick one

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Speaker 1: of you to marry once I'm done with this. What

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Speaker 1: was she doing? She was weaving a funeral shroud for

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Speaker 1: a disseus. Oh so just like really light fodder, just

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Speaker 1: like nothing, no big deal. Yeah, once I'm once I'm

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Speaker 1: done knitting her, once I'm done weaving this thing from

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Speaker 1: my dead husband, you can date me, guys. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: also the myth about is that it's Athena and a

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Speaker 1: Rachne who had like a weave off again, not knitting,

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Speaker 1: and Athena was like, I'm obviously better, but you're like

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Speaker 1: so good that I better just go ahead and turn

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Speaker 1: you into a spider because I'm jealous and I'm a

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Speaker 1: goddess and I've got issues. Probably got a goddess therapy

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Speaker 1: or maybe just a knitting circle where she could men relax,

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Speaker 1: get with harra, you know, and and persephone. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that a sounds fun. I'm sure. I mean their goddess

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Speaker 1: is they're drunk all the time anyway. But another thing

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Speaker 1: knitting is flash was not is this thing called n

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Speaker 1: all bending, which, yes, it's a needle craft, Yes it

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Speaker 1: looks like knitting, and yes a lot of scholars thought

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Speaker 1: it was knitting for a long time. But not all

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Speaker 1: bending is a knitting like technique that uses just one

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Speaker 1: needle to not string together. And what a disappointing moment

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Speaker 1: it was when scholars real lie is that this surviving

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Speaker 1: scrap found in present day Syria from the year two

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Speaker 1: hundred that was thought to be the oldest knitted thing,

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Speaker 1: turns out it was just not all bending. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say just not all bending, because not all

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Speaker 1: bending is still an intricate craft in and of itself.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that had to be a bummer of

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Speaker 1: a day, like, oh man, we thought, I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's cool in and of itself, like oh

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Speaker 1: cool ancient technology, but or you know, kind of ancient,

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Speaker 1: not super ancient, but it's but it's not knitting. Uh um.

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Speaker 1: And then there are these reddish brownish Egyptian sandal socks,

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Speaker 1: which I'm pretty sure those were just made for cows

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Speaker 1: because it looks like they were made to go over

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Speaker 1: hoofed creatures. But those are from the years but sometime

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Speaker 1: between two fifty and four twenty a d. Also not

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Speaker 1: all bending, not knitting. Don't get confused. And I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell you Caroline. Side note. When I first read the

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Speaker 1: word no all bending, which listeners is spelled n A

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Speaker 1: L B I n D I n G, I immediately

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Speaker 1: thought of narwhals. So in my mind when I hear

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Speaker 1: it all bending, they're using their little horns to knit.

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Speaker 1: So there, yeah, because you only have one needle and

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Speaker 1: all bending, so they used their horn. Oh my god, illustrator, listeners,

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Speaker 1: get on that could a narwhale no all bend? Yes,

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Speaker 1: they could dominate? No all bindings. Could a narwhale no

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Speaker 1: all bend? If an all narwhale could not all bend fast. Well,

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Speaker 1: the confusing thing for me is like, okay, well, this

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Speaker 1: clearly like knitting, not all bending, got its start in

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Speaker 1: the Islamic world. Why does it have a Scandinavian name.

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Speaker 1: And it's purely because no, all bending was a technique

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Speaker 1: that Scandinavians used during the Viking Age, so that's just

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Speaker 1: where the name comes from. I'm sure it had its

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Speaker 1: own name in the Arabic or Islamic world that is

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Speaker 1: just simply lost to us. But another interesting little tidbit,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, we'll get back to knitting knitting, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: But another interesting tidbit is that meanwhile, while people are

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Speaker 1: using then all bending technique in Scandinavia, in what is

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Speaker 1: present day Syria and Egypt, people in what is now

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Speaker 1: Peru we're using the same technique as well to make

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Speaker 1: hats and shawls. So this was like a it's just

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about, like, oh my god, this technology,

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Speaker 1: this this narwhal technology just erupted cross cultural human ingenuity,

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Speaker 1: borrowed of course from normals. Yeah, and you said it

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Speaker 1: was just like a ninth century Islamic thing, but knitting,

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Speaker 1: knitting emerges in Egypt and spreads to Europe. And if

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Speaker 1: we go to A thousand and fourteen hundred a d.

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Speaker 1: We have these Egyptian Coptic socks, which we are this

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Speaker 1: gorgeous artifact of early knitting, and they were knit with

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Speaker 1: blue and white cotton, and they're the first knitted items

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Speaker 1: we have. But if you look at how complex the

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Speaker 1: patterns are, it's doubtful that they were the very first

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Speaker 1: things that people know because or if they were the

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Speaker 1: verse thing someone ever that is so impressive. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: they might be, because the legend goes at the magical

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Speaker 1: narwhale bestowed its knowledge to the Egyptian. So I'm sure

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Speaker 1: the nar walls already had these gorgeous blue and white patterns,

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Speaker 1: you know, blue and white ocean waves. We're putting it

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Speaker 1: all together in this episode. That's what we do, Kristen,

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Speaker 1: It's what we do. And as knitting spread to Spain,

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Speaker 1: it became a high class perk. It was something that

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Speaker 1: really only the wealthy could afford, right, and or people

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Speaker 1: in the church. So it was used if you a

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Speaker 1: prince or if you were like a priest, a priest,

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Speaker 1: I guess priest. Yeah, but they would use gold or

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Speaker 1: silver threads, So things things are getting real fancy. Um.

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Speaker 1: The first European knitting that modern archaeologists discovered, which was

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Speaker 1: a detailed silk pillow cover, was found in a Spanish

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Speaker 1: princess tomb dating to twelve seventy five. And you know,

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Speaker 1: to me, this really reminds me of our Tarot card

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Speaker 1: episode because in that episode we talked about how those

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Speaker 1: beautifully hand painted and elaborate cards migrated from the Islamic

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Speaker 1: world to Europe, particularly to Spain and Italy, and it's

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Speaker 1: and it's similar here. You see this beautiful, handcrafted technology

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Speaker 1: being brought to Europe from the Islamic world and becoming

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Speaker 1: a perk, like you said, for the wealthy. And when

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Speaker 1: we think of knitting today, we usually think of it

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Speaker 1: as a feminine past time. And that kind of imagery

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Speaker 1: of women sitting there quietly knitting goes back to art

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Speaker 1: in the mid fourteenth century. So you have Italian and

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Speaker 1: German painters starting to depict the Virgin Mary knitting while

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Speaker 1: hanging out with baby Jesus, you know, nitting him some diapers,

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Speaker 1: maybe who's to say, a cape the Lord he's super

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Speaker 1: baby Jesus. And so what this means of significance of

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Speaker 1: this iconography is that knitting had clearly spread far and wide,

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Speaker 1: and by this point was likely a common, unthreatening domestic

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Speaker 1: pastime of women, because, as Donna Cooler, author of the

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Speaker 1: Encyclopedia of Knitting, notes, it's highly unlikely that reverent altarpieces

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Speaker 1: of the Madonna and Christ would have introduced this revolutionary

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Speaker 1: knitting theme in there of her doing something that would

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Speaker 1: have been male dominated at the time, people would have

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Speaker 1: been like, no, no, no, that's super disrespectful, right exactly,

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Speaker 1: So she was clearly being depicted doing something that was

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Speaker 1: already feminized. And I think it's interesting too during this

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Speaker 1: era that in fourteen sixty five, in fact, possibly the

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Speaker 1: earliest recorded professional knitter was a lady person yeah, named

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Clayton of Rippon. She was described as a cap knitter.

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Speaker 1: But fair listeners, this is spelled c A P P

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Speaker 1: E in I T T E R all one word,

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Speaker 1: so that could be cape knitter, which I like to

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Speaker 1: imagine ties right back to super Baby Jesus um. But

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Speaker 1: if you say it all is one word, kapa knitter,

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Speaker 1: it almost sounds German, like an angry knitting cap nitta. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but cap knitter, I'm assuming that that

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Speaker 1: means caps, like a filted cap, filted cap. And around

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Speaker 1: the time that Marjorie Clayton of Rippon was getting started,

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Speaker 1: that was when knitting first appeared in the dictionary, coming

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Speaker 1: from a root word meeting to not. Okay, But as

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Speaker 1: knitting becomes more organized and we have guilds popping up,

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Speaker 1: knitting becomes a dude thing. Well yeah, because you have

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind, so like knitting really catches on right,

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Speaker 1: everybody's like, oh, ladies, be knitting, Knitting's happening everywhere. Just

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Speaker 1: dropped all mags. Sorry, um. But by the into the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century, knitting is huge. It's big business and fancy

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Speaker 1: men have to wear their fancy knitted stockings to maintain

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Speaker 1: their fancy fashionable status. So what does this mean If

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Speaker 1: men are like, we have to have our stocking skies, dude, bros.

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Speaker 1: Stocking dude bros. Well, that means that people are picking

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Speaker 1: up on the fact that demand equals money. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: you have the rise of all male knitting guilds, which

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Speaker 1: emerged to protect trade secrets and improve the professions quality.

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Speaker 1: And listen, if you wanted to join one, of these

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Speaker 1: knitting guilds. It was no joke. You had to train

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Speaker 1: for six years, three years as an apprentice to a

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Speaker 1: master three years this is kind of cool, actually three

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Speaker 1: years traveling the world learning new techniques, and then after

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Speaker 1: all of that you would come home take a knitting exam,

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Speaker 1: which involved having to knit all this stuff, including stockings

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Speaker 1: of course his dudes need their stockings back then, as

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Speaker 1: well as felted caps which sound adorable, cabinet and the

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Speaker 1: cab netter, and then intricate wall hangings. And we saw

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Speaker 1: some pictures of these, uh knitting exam wall hangings that

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Speaker 1: some of these dudes produced, and they are incredibly vibrant

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Speaker 1: and colorful and intricate, displaying all these scenes and yeah,

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Speaker 1: knitting knitting, Yeah, and they even display biblical scenes. There's

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Speaker 1: the one we saw had Adam and Eve and there's

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Speaker 1: like a lion and a unicorn, and I expected to

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Speaker 1: see something at a Game of Thrones there was n

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Speaker 1: wall cannot bear a new catchpright, where was then you

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Speaker 1: got it? Also, fun fact for these knitting fellas at

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Speaker 1: the time, they were probably using knitting needles made of

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Speaker 1: ivory bone or tortoise who's bones. The narwals. They got

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Speaker 1: narwhal horns, so tragic, but I thought that was pretty neat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is pretty neat. Gorgeous tools you would use, I'm sure. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think about these knitters. So they

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Speaker 1: train for so long, right, they trained for years. And

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Speaker 1: another thing that I love to think about is the

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Speaker 1: idea that the wealthy had their favorite master knitters. Almost

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Speaker 1: the way that we think of like houses of design

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Speaker 1: today and fan fancy, high salutant designers today, there were

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Speaker 1: master knitters that different royal or noble families relied on

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Speaker 1: to do their knitting, to do all their fancy golden

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Speaker 1: thread gloves and silk pillow cases. And then with some

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Speaker 1: more human ingenuity. In fifty nine, an Englishman named William

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Speaker 1: Lee invinced the knitting machine. And this kind of changes

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Speaker 1: the whole scene a bit. It sort of takes it

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Speaker 1: down a notch from being this really elaborate art as

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Speaker 1: it was, to obviously being more widespread for mass manufacturing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that by the time we hit the Industrial Revolution

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Speaker 1: and least technology has been improved upon, this machinery has

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Speaker 1: completely taken the trade out of artisans hands. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously they're probably there's still people in their homes knitting,

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Speaker 1: whether it's for their family or for neighbors, or you know,

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Speaker 1: to make a little extra money on the side. But

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Speaker 1: by and large, knitting becomes industrialized and those machines required

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Speaker 1: a lot of skill and physical strength. So for that reason,

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Speaker 1: men were mostly the ones running the big machines, which

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Speaker 1: meant that they had domain over technology, not only using it,

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Speaker 1: but of course learning new kinds as well, while women

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Speaker 1: were stuck being the penelopes of the group doing the

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Speaker 1: spinning and prepping raw materials for knitting, as well as

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Speaker 1: mending and in hand seeming the end result. And what's

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Speaker 1: interesting to see though, is that across Europe it's not

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Speaker 1: so much because like women have a place, women are

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Speaker 1: clearly natural born steamers of things, but that these tasks

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Speaker 1: just we're pretty much divided along strength lines. And this

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Speaker 1: is coming from Joyce Burnett's book Gender, Work and Wages

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Speaker 1: and Industrial Revolution Britain, which we did not read the

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Speaker 1: whole thing spoiler. We just read the section on the

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Speaker 1: gender division in industrialized knitting. But if you look in Nottinghamshire,

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Speaker 1: which I'm sure I said that wrong, because when you

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Speaker 1: have these long names from England that have like fifteen syllables.

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Speaker 1: Typically they're pronounced with two, so somebody can tell me,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, he's not sure, I'm not sure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen nineteen we get a co ed Framework Knitters Union forming,

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Speaker 1: so women were already involved in their trades union back then,

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Speaker 1: and by eighteen forty five women operated about seven percent

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Speaker 1: of the knitting frames, though they would usually work on

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Speaker 1: narrower frames, because again, it's all about the physical strength.

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Speaker 1: And also in eighteen forty five a parliamentary report on

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Speaker 1: framework knitters, which I'm sure was just real scintillating copy,

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Speaker 1: emphasize equal opportunity, and in that they wrote, quote vast

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Speaker 1: numbers of women and children who children, okay it is,

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Speaker 1: are working side by side with men, often employed in

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Speaker 1: the same description of frames, making the same fabrics at

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Speaker 1: the same rate of wages, the only advantage over them,

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Speaker 1: which the man possesses, being his superior strength, which, okay,

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Speaker 1: it sounds sounds good. Basically you're saying, well, they're saying

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Speaker 1: women can do the job, but they're also saying little

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Speaker 1: children are doing the job. Well, they're tiny fingers, those

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Speaker 1: little fingers. Somebody's got to climb into those machines much energy.

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Speaker 1: But forty years later women, no big surprise, we're earning

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Speaker 1: less working those same knitting machines, and men argue that

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Speaker 1: they should be relegated to smaller, less productive women's machines.

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Speaker 1: And here's a side note a quote that I love

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Speaker 1: that I really wanted to share. So you know, during

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Speaker 1: this time their wage disputes, men are saying we should

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Speaker 1: be making more because we're working on the big or

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Speaker 1: more productive machines. Women should go over here to the

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Speaker 1: smaller machines since they're weaker with their floating uterus is.

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Speaker 1: But you get this guy, James Holmes, who's the secretary

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Speaker 1: of one of those co ed labor unions, and he

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Speaker 1: told a parliamentary commission that the difference between men's and

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Speaker 1: women's machines was basically false and made up. He said, quote,

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Speaker 1: it is so convenient for men to believe that women

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Speaker 1: cannot do certain things until they do it, and then

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Speaker 1: they find that the impossible is done. Dang James home.

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Speaker 1: So he's basically like, this is this is silly, But

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Speaker 1: no matter. There was still that gender division, and in

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Speaker 1: France it was pretty much the same thing. But you

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Speaker 1: you get the rise of these smaller, even smaller knitting

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Speaker 1: machines that were meant for home use. And what's interesting

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Speaker 1: to see is that manufacturers start targeting in their advertisements

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Speaker 1: working class families, basically saying, hey, ladies, ladies, this is

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Speaker 1: the way to earn a living. You get to stay

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Speaker 1: home and knit and raise your family. Stop being one

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Speaker 1: of those awful mothers who goes to work. Now you

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Speaker 1: can just knit at home. Yeah. They called it out work,

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Speaker 1: which was sending the mending and seeming work to women's

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Speaker 1: homes for them to do. And I don't have the

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Speaker 1: numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that

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Speaker 1: they were not paid very well for the work. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting that these technological developments seem to culminate

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Speaker 1: in sending people back home because families have been producing

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Speaker 1: knitted goods as units a hundred years before. So you

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Speaker 1: have almost a return not to the cottage industry. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're still talking in like bigger manufacturing terms, but

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Speaker 1: they're outsourcing to those cottage industries in a way. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So then you're, at least in France during this time anyway,

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Speaker 1: you're just sending women back home to mind the hearth

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Speaker 1: and home, and you know, if they if they're you know,

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Speaker 1: working class women who have to help support their families

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Speaker 1: by earning money, then at least they can do it

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Speaker 1: at home. Well, and I wonder if that really cemented

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Speaker 1: this association between knitting and women in the home as

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Speaker 1: a you know, the activity that women kind of do

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Speaker 1: while the men are out working in the factories. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but you've also got those class divisions to consider,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, okay, you had working class women and in

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Speaker 1: this example, it's working class French women using the smaller

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Speaker 1: home knitting machines to make an extra buck, but knitting

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Speaker 1: this whole time, it's still pretty consistent that like pastime,

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Speaker 1: knitting is a thing, but that's still for women of

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Speaker 1: a little bit higher of a social standing who have

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Speaker 1: the time and don't need to knit for extra income.

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Speaker 1: And that's a theme that we're gonna revisit when we

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Speaker 1: talk about the resurgence of knitting in recent years. Um

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Speaker 1: but briefly, I want to talk about knitting during World

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Speaker 1: War one and two. And I know that that's a

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Speaker 1: huge leap from the Industrial Revolution, but during this time

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Speaker 1: we have them that image of women knitting even more

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Speaker 1: ingrained in our culture because it was promoted as a

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Speaker 1: patriotic duty. When the boys are at war, it was

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Speaker 1: women's jobs and children's jobs. To school kids would get

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Speaker 1: in on this as well. Tyingers, those tiny little fingers

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Speaker 1: to knit, knit their clothes, and they would knit socks

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Speaker 1: I believe for the soldiers that they would send over there.

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Speaker 1: So there was this whole like knitting propaganda um during

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Speaker 1: both wars, and there was also knitting involved in spy work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this was really fascinating, Caroline. During World War Two,

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Speaker 1: there was a ban on mailing knitting patterns abroad in

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Speaker 1: case they might be coded. Because if you look at

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Speaker 1: the you know, and knitting instructions, I mean, it really

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Speaker 1: does look like a secret code to me. That's why

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Speaker 1: you should never trust in our wall exactly to my

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Speaker 1: untrained eye. So you couldn't send any um any knitting

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Speaker 1: patterns to your friends during those days. But the Belgian

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Speaker 1: resistance employed this group of an old lady knitters whose

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Speaker 1: houses were near the train tracks, who would watch the

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Speaker 1: trains and they would knit secret messages into their knitting,

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Speaker 1: like according to like what kind of stitch they would

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Speaker 1: use to let the resistance forces know what trains were

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Speaker 1: coming through and who were on those trains. So then

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Speaker 1: you mail the knitted final product and they're just like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like or they probably deliver it, you know,

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Speaker 1: and be like, Oh, I'm just giving this person a scarf.

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Speaker 1: It's no big deal. Secrets in it. Yeah, knitting secret,

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Speaker 1: knitting secrets, and I have one final knitting secret for

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Speaker 1: you please, Okay. So one of the coolest women that

426
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: I've learned about recently was a British World War Two

427
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: spy named Phyllis Latour Doyle and when she was twenty three,

428
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: under the code name Genevieve, she parachuted into occupied Normandy

429
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: to help out with a French resistance and she would

430
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: just bicycle around gathering information and and the codes that

431
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: she would send back to the Allies were in like

432
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: stitches that she would make um in this piece of

433
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: silk that she had, and she would hide the silk

434
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: and the codes in her knitting. What. Yeah, So she

435
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: was just like, Oh, I'm just so lady, just biking around.

436
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 1: This is just my knitting. Don't mind me. I want

437
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: to see that movie and I know, like Knitting It

438
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: War starring Granny's and that lady on the bicycle. So

439
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: I loved though, this secret history of knitting. Yeah, it's

440
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: pretty amazing what people who have very little suspected of them,

441
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: i e. Women with their what with their knitting and such,

442
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: can accomplish. But think about how intense that must have

443
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: been to to live during a time when you couldn't

444
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: even mail a knitting pattern to your friend in the

445
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: States because secrets, say secrets. Well yeah, and I love

446
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: I love reading about even the World War two efforts

447
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: to like knit socks and scarves and stuff for soldiers

448
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: abroad because yeah, like you said, it was totally propaganda.

449
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: It was a feel good thing for everyone and let

450
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: people feel like they were participating in something. But then also,

451
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: if you're the soldier in the trenches, like, no, a

452
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: pair of new socks or knitted socks isn't gonna make

453
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: or break whether you survive or succeed or whatever. But

454
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: it is a nice kind of homeye reminder of home,

455
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: A homie reminder of home. Yes, yes, indeed. Well, we

456
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: got to take a quick break, but when we come back,

457
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: we're going to be in the swing in seventies, my friends,

458
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: So hang onto your knitting needles. So we've gotten through

459
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: our world wars. Yeah, just low and through stuff. And

460
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: we're in the nineteen seventies and as UK based Penelope

461
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: Hemingway points out on her fantastic blog Knitting Genealogists, once

462
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: we get to that era plus second way feminism, there's

463
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: been a lot of gendering back and forth of knitting,

464
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: as we have clearly hopefully explained, and there were still

465
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: gender divisions going on within knitting at that time. Yeah,

466
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: so these are some TV shows I would love to

467
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: go back and catch snippets of. But she points out

468
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: that the expert knitters on TV shows in the seventies

469
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: tended to be men. Yeah, what are those shows? I

470
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: need to watch them? Kind of soothing? Oh, I know,

471
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: just like the clicking of the of the needles. SMR

472
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: City seventies a SMR um and she writes that it

473
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: was pretty common to discover that both male and female

474
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: knitters of this era had been taught by their grandfather

475
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: I love that, and I have a feeling that they

476
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: were taught by their grandfathers because their grandfathers had been soldiers,

477
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: and soldiers were taught to knit, yeah, they well, yeah,

478
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: you've got to be out there without your mama to

479
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: knit your socks for you. So if you had to

480
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: repair a hole in something, you had to know how

481
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: to do it yourself. You know, my father in the

482
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: Navy had his own little knitting kit. I don't think.

483
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever knitted or like even repaired

484
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: a patch. I don't know. Maybe I'm selim dad short. Yeah,

485
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: maybe he was a secret knitter, secret knitter. We did

486
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: establish before the Break that knitting is full of secrets.

487
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: But as Hemingway points out, despite this fact, despite that

488
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: the expert television knitters tended to be men, and the

489
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: grandfathers were passing down their knitting secrets to their grandchildren,

490
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: the whole like men knitting quote unquote in public thing

491
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: had generally fallen by the wayside. So it's still it's

492
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: still thought of as like a feminine pursuit. It's a

493
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: feminine pastime, whether you're doing it because you need the

494
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: scar for whether you're doing it just to pass the time. Well,

495
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: and feminine and so domestic too. Yeah, so that women

496
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: of that era who liked to knit or wanted to knit,

497
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: we're almost classified as traitors to the cause, like to

498
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: the second way feminist cause, which is something that Himmingway

499
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: herself says she had experience with. She said that she

500
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: felt she needed to hide her desire and her love

501
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: of knitting. She writes, though, but the more I learned

502
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: of the craft's history, the more I realized that knitting

503
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: is a defiant feminist statement, not a sign of being

504
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: cowed by male oppression. Moving beyond feminism, it's full of

505
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: the triumph of the human spirit, creativity, artistry, and democracy.

506
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: And in fact, there was some feminist adoption even during

507
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: that time of the d I y ethos more generally,

508
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: as well as knitting and making your own clothes. Even

509
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: outside of feminism, during the Vietnam War, there was a

510
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: resurgence of interest in crafts that aligned with the protests.

511
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: Lifestyle um and Miss magazine, for instance, featured ads for

512
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: homemade feminist clothes and jewelry, which is something that we

513
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: see so much in third wave feminism and magazines like

514
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: bus Right Yeah. Bust is one of those which started

515
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: in the nineties. It was sort of on the forefront

516
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: of this get girls crafting thing. It was seen as

517
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: a way to sort of I wanted to say, get

518
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: back to nature, but like that's obviously not what I mean,

519
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: like get back to relying on yourself instead of relying

520
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: on big corporations to provide your clothes and accessories. And

521
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: we can see that trend reflected directly in statistics from

522
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: the Craft Yarn Council, which I'd love to see one

523
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: of those council meetings, imagining all of them in very

524
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: colorful knitted shoals. But they found the proportion of women

525
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: under forty five who knew how to knit doubled between

526
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: and two thousand two, from nine to and you know,

527
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: some third wave feminism was partially to thank for that. Yeah,

528
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: And an article in the journal Third Space in two

529
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: thousand eight, writer beth Ann Pitney emphasizes knitting's place as

530
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: a third wave feminist practice, saying that if second wave

531
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: feminists have been historicized as women who put down their knitting,

532
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: third wave feminists may be characterized as those who have

533
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: picked it back up again. And she links this to

534
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: the whole riot girl movements d I y Esthetic getting

535
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: out of the mall marketplace and getting into the sustainable marketplace.

536
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: And this takes me or right on back to high

537
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: school Caroline Um, when one of my best friends was

538
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: very much in the d I Y punk scene, and

539
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: a lot of them congregated at a specific house, and

540
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: all the girls were super riot, all e and there

541
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: was all sorts of zine making. Of course, most of

542
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: them were musicians, and a lot of them knit and

543
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: sewed and made, if not their own clothes, they would

544
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: make patches and buttons and all sorts of things. So

545
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: knitting was very much an activity that was like constantly

546
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: going on as almost a political act for these young

547
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: punks at the time. Well, yeah, and that's something that

548
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Granoveld talked about two in an article in the

549
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: Canadian Review of American Studies from She didn't disagree that

550
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: knitting can be feminists, that it can be part of

551
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: that d I Y culture, but she has quibbles with

552
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: specifically third wave feminisms, publications, com modification of it, and

553
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: of d I Y culture. In addition to what she

554
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: and Pentney in her article that we just talked about

555
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: sees as ignoring the fact that for many women, like

556
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, knitting is a form of underpaid

557
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: labor or a way to save money on clothing. It's

558
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: not part of this what she saw as consumer culture

559
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: as politics that magazines like bust or bitch in its

560
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: early days, we're peddling. She kind of almost sees it

561
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: as a dishonest way of of approaching this d I

562
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: y ethos. Yeah, she describes it as classes and a

563
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: quote ironic iteration of idealized womanhood. And she distinguishes in

564
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: the process between crafting, which requires disposable income and time,

565
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: and the knitting that women would be doing for work

566
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: and like you said, often under paid work. So she

567
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, raises her eyebrows at the idea of whether

568
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: this is just a hip new hobby that makes you

569
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: look like you are aware and you know, taking a

570
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: step back from the mainstream, or are you really just

571
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: part of the fold? Are you in their sheep? Well? Yeah,

572
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: and she points out, like, well, who is their audience.

573
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: It's you know, the twenty two year old white suburban

574
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: college student. Are we leaving out whole groups of knitters

575
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: of various classes, races, ages, Are we, you know, ignoring grandma?

576
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: Um when we talk about how knitting is this like

577
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: hip new thing, it's not like your dusty grandma's habit.

578
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: And it's like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa Your grandma was

579
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: parachuting into France with her knitting secrets. Yeah, I will

580
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: say again, um, speaking from personal experience, the rise of knitting,

581
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: in this renewed appreciation for handmade goods in particular, is

582
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: something that I almost wish it happened when I was younger,

583
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: because my family didn't have a lot of money and

584
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: my mom made a lot of our clothes and I

585
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: was often sheepish about that. Not to keep using the

586
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: word sheep for some reason it's appropriate, But from that

587
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: perspective of Gronoveld's classic argument doesn't hold quite as much water,

588
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: because while yeah, it does take disposable income in time

589
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: to do this kind of crafting, I think that it

590
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 1: had a wider impact of drawing appreciation to those kinds

591
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: of handmade things that people in lower income households could afford,

592
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: who could make themselves. Yeah. And I wonder though, if

593
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: she's not arguing that, like, that's fine and good, and

594
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: people need to knit for different reasons or want to

595
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 1: knit for different reasons. But when you talk about knitting

596
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: purely as like a hip hobby for young people, are

597
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: you leaving out the opportunity to appreciate people like your

598
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: mom or like whoever is knitting because they want to

599
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: provide for their family. And all of this being said,

600
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: Grennaville did acknowledge that in looking at like letters to

601
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: the editor and and things like that, that these magazines

602
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: were receiving and published, saying that a lot of the

603
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: readers looked at knitting as a pleasurable pastime, not as

604
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: a political statement. So it's not like you have a

605
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: bunch of people who are trying to reclaim knitting necessarily,

606
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: much more like, oh, well, oh, this is a nice

607
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: craft that I can do to provide for myself and

608
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: or and or my family, or that can just be

609
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: a soothing thing to do well. And I would argue too,

610
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: that it gives you a sense of empowerment and agency

611
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: because you are taking a ball of yarn that serves

612
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: you really no purpose and making it into something for

613
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: yourself or another person. And you and h at the

614
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: top of the podcast when in a great detail about

615
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: how challenging that is and to be able to successfully

616
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: make yourself something that can keep you warm, I mean,

617
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of incredible. I think that that that's a

618
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: lot more than just oh you're just you're just crafting

619
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: because you have a little extra money in time. Yeah,

620
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: and after all, it was busts editor one of the

621
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: founding editors, Debbie Stoller, who pinned the book Stitching Bitch,

622
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: The Knitter's Handbook in two thousand three, which was sort

623
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: of like a a watershed knitting moment. It was um

624
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: in terms of paving the way for knitting to be

625
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: this like cool, trendy, okay thing to do. And she

626
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: pointed out that when you denigrate knitting, you denigrate femininity,

627
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: and this is another form of theemphobia. Other people would

628
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: argue knitting shouldn't be gendered, but uh, Stoller's point is that, like, yeah,

629
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: like women have been doing this forever, like, don't crap

630
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: all over knitting because it can be really rewarding. And

631
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: I remember around that time that Stitching Bitch came out,

632
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: um uh much cooler friend of mine gave me Bust

633
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: magazine and it was unlike anything I had ever seen before,

634
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: because of course there were all of the craft respects

635
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: to it. But I was like, oh my gosh, this

636
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: is this is a magazine for I didn't realize it

637
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: so much of the time I didn't have the language

638
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: for it, but like, oh, like young feminists like me.

639
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: Although there were lots of cat eyeglasses everywhere. Well, stitching

640
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: bitch is purely an update on our grandmother's uh knitting circles.

641
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: One girl who wrote in to Bust said that her

642
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: grandmother was so tickled that she was part of a

643
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: stitch and bitch circle because her grandmother was part of

644
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: a knit and natter circle. So it's the same thing.

645
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: And that's where Gronaveld's quibbles, I think come in in

646
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: terms of calling it an ironic iteration of idealized womanhood,

647
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: maybe insinuating that like, are we truly appreciating knittings history

648
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: or are we just doing it because it's kind of funny?

649
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: And I think for a lot of these girls, whatever

650
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: their motivation for picking it up was, it's so clear

651
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: that it turned into just a way of life for

652
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: so many people. I have a feeling that the hardcore

653
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: and knitters in our audience do not do it because

654
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: it's funny or ironic. I can't wait and I cannot

655
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: wait to hear from them on this topic and what

656
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: got them into knitting um. And it's also been interesting

657
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: to see, since you know, the early Adds and Stitching

658
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: bitch um, how knitting has gotten even more visible and

659
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 1: political in the sense of yarn bombing and that whole

660
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: thing um for anyone who's not aware of yarn bombing,

661
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: it's essentially going out. Rather than taking say spray paint

662
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: and painting murals or graffiti in public spaces to make

663
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: some kind of social or political statement or just to

664
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: enhance the visuals in some kind of way, you take

665
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: knitting and crocheting and wrap it around trees or park benches,

666
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: or in the case of the London Cast Off Knitting Club,

667
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: you cover a whole inc in Denmark to protest the

668
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: country's involvement in the Iraq War. They covered it in

669
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: this massive pink blanket. Well, speaking of benches, Kristen had

670
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: sent me this link to this story about a one

671
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: and four year old yarn bombing grandma who, along with

672
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: several other members of her community in Scotland, yarn bombed

673
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: all of these benches as a way to just it

674
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: was like half prank, half art project, and it's amazing

675
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: to see like all of the secrecy that went into

676
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: like okay, well, don't tell anybody that we're going to

677
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: be yon bombing these benches. Her story went viral across

678
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: the Internet because it's you know, which is kind of

679
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: ironic because there's still the idea of knitting is what

680
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: grandmas do. So you have this grandma who is knitting,

681
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: but she's yarn bombing, which is something that hit kids

682
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: today do to make statements. Yeah, and I mean it's

683
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: definitely Knitting has definitely made its way into the realm

684
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: of political protest. I mean, not only did you have

685
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: the tank in Denmark getting yarn bombed, but you have

686
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: groups like the Revolutionary Knitting Circle, which knits anti war

687
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: banners and arm bands but also holds knit ins as

688
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: a form of public protest. And people might argue like, oh,

689
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: what are you accomplishing with this? Well, I mean you're

690
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: certainly talking about it, aren't you, especially when there's a

691
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: whole group of people knitting in public together and just

692
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: in general. Knitting for charity has a long history. Um

693
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: going back again to our Craft Yarn Council meeting and

694
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: they're glorious shawls. In two thousand fourteen, sixty of survey

695
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: respondents from their group had made a project for charity.

696
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: So I mean think about blankets, hat scarves made for

697
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: babies and hospitals, people and homeless shelters or domestic violence shelters.

698
00:43:55,160 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: There is also Baryl Sayings project called tits Bit for

699
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: breast cancer survivors. Yeah, so she was knitting. She herself

700
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: as a breast cancer survivor who was really turned off

701
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: by all of the basically like boob replacement options. She

702
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: was not digging it, and so she knitted a prosthetic

703
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: breast and got a lot of other women in on

704
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: the game. She launches website tips bits where, which served

705
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: as like a community for women to share their stories,

706
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: share their pictures, uh knit their own boobs and mail

707
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: them in to be auctioned off. And it's just sort

708
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: of like a kitchy kind of like we talked about

709
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: in our Mystectomy Tattoo episode of like it's just kind

710
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: of a way to reclaim your body and express a

711
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: little bit of humor at the same time once you've

712
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: undergone this trauma. Well, and I can imagine that just

713
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: the process and the time that it would take to

714
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: knit those Unless you're like a really fascinator, I assume

715
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: that knitting something just takes years and years and years

716
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: because I have no experience, um, but I would imagine

717
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: in that process it's gotta be really healing because you're

718
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: going through that, you know, kind of having to sit

719
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: there and and reflect. Well, yeah, and you're I mean,

720
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: you're creating like these adorable boobs, and some of them

721
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: are multicolored. They've cut the little nipple at him and everything.

722
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: I kind of just want one. And I recently, speaking

723
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: of knitted boobs, I just saw a link to boob

724
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 1: beanies for babies. So when moms are out and their breastfeeding,

725
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: they put this boob beanie on their baby's head. So

726
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: you like you're glancing past, you're like, oh my god,

727
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: there's a boob. Wait, no, it's not a boob, it's

728
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: a baby. I'm confused. Wait, So the beanie goes on

729
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 1: the baby's head so like a booby, so that as

730
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: you're holding the baby up to your boob, there's like

731
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: a knitted boob on top of the baby's head. Trump

732
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: louel I also enjoyed the knitting performance art by craftivists

733
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: Casey Jenkins. Her piece was called Casting Off My Womb

734
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: and took place in an Australian gallery where she sat

735
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: for twenty eight days knitting from wool that she inserted

736
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: into her vagina. And of course it was twenty eight days,

737
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: so that she would be on her period at some

738
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: point during the project. And she talked about how challenging

739
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: it was to knit with the period blood soaked wool

740
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: because it's wet and heavy and just harder to work with.

741
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: You can imagine twenty eight days of that is just

742
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: like that, just to me spells yeast infection. I know. Yeah, yeah,

743
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: um yeah. We watched a video of it and it

744
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: was very mesmerizing. Um, she was just sitting naked with

745
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: the yarns just coming out of her vagina coming out.

746
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: What was she making a scarf? Do know what she's thinking?

747
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: She was making a scarf. She made a scarf. Yeah,

748
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: and she part of the idea is that it's confining,

749
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: she said, because I'm attached to this knitting statements on

750
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: women's bodies. Craftivism, man, Yeah, craftivism is a real thing.

751
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 1: We We have run across feces and dissertations all about craftivism.

752
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: People take it very seriously. And going back to Pentney,

753
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: in her two thousand eight paper, she talks about the

754
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: reclamation of knitting, but she talks about it from the

755
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: perspective of knitting needs to be claimed and reclaimed by

756
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: a whole host of people. It's She says that knitting

757
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: is unique in its ability to attract politically motivated people,

758
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: including feminists, d I Y subcultures, and queer communities, which

759
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: is an ability that's further, she says, by these online

760
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: knitting communities and blogs, most of which are geared towards women.

761
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: But she argues, let's not forget the male knitters, the

762
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 1: queer knitters, people of different genders and sexualities, in order

763
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: to push knitting out of this white, hetero feminine box.

764
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,479
Speaker 1: And so I think it's interesting that here's a person,

765
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: unlike Debbie Stoller who was saying, let's embrace the femininity

766
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: of the knitting tradition, uh, Hentney's arguing like, let's not

767
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: make it feminine at all. Let's have everybody knit and

768
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: get rid of this feminine connotation knitting for everyone. And

769
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of male knitters, there are more dudes

770
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: getting in on the knitting action. And I still love

771
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: the idea of grandfather's teaching their grandsons to knit. Um.

772
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: There have been a number of trend pieces in recent

773
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: years on men knitting and the side I that they'll

774
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: get if they're saying knitting on the subway because people

775
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: are like, oh, a man who's knitting, How strange. Yeah,

776
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: A lot of guys in these trend pieces talk about

777
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: how yeah, like they get the side I when they

778
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: go into the yarn shop um from some women who

779
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: are like, what are you doing in here? This is

780
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: a lady space, which it shouldn't be. That way should

781
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: be for everybody. But it's interesting that the tone of

782
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: a lot of these articles and interviews is claiming and

783
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: reclaiming and re reclaiming knitting and from from whom because

784
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: over the centuries, we've clearly seen that knitting has just

785
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: gone back and forth between being uh, wealthy and male

786
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: and like super professionalized and like feminine and just in

787
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: the home and a in a hobby. So I don't know,

788
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: like do we need to do we need to gender

789
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 1: knitting at all? Like should should we agree with Stolen

790
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: and say like, yes, it's a feminine practice and we

791
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: need to embrace that femininity. Let's stop being afraid of

792
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: feminine things. Or do we agree more with Pentney who

793
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: says like, let's bring everybody into it. I think, if anything,

794
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: gender wise, my stance would be don't let the femininity

795
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: associated with knitting scare you away from it, whether it's

796
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: the embracing of femininity or the old school masculinity associated

797
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: with it. I think that's like kind of besides the point,

798
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: it's more a thing of like, you know, don't let

799
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: it deter you. But it reminded me so much. Stories

800
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: that came out I want to say, like a few

801
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: years ago then that were hailing the first beer brewers

802
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: being women because we think of beer as a man's drink,

803
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: and um there I don't know if there was a

804
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: new study or what, um that was um clarifying how

805
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: back in the day women would brew a beer. And

806
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: so you have all these pieces of like ladies, beer

807
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,919
Speaker 1: was actually originally something that we made, and in these

808
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: male knitting trend pieces exact same kinds of leads of

809
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: like fellows. This lady thing was actually something that we started.

810
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: And so it is. Of course I love finding out

811
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: the gendered origins of things, but I do think at

812
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: a point too, as in the case of knitting, it's like,

813
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: do we really need to do that today? Well, especially

814
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: since knitting clearly originated with nor Wals. Yeah, and I

815
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: mean boy Narwhal's Girl nor walls spectrum, gender spectrum in

816
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: our walls of all sexualities, like no one's talking about them,

817
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean they've really been left out,

818
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: not in our conversation, but certainly in the greater conversation.

819
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: That's right. Well, if you're on our wall or not,

820
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: we would certainly love to hear from you about this

821
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: very brief history of knitting and the whole gendered aspect

822
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: of it. And if you're a fella knitter, and I

823
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: know that we have guy knitters and crochetres in our audience,

824
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you what your experience has been.

825
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: People who adore knitting or no any knitting facts that

826
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: we did not share, please share them with us. Mom

827
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address.

828
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

829
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages

830
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a

831
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: letter here from Michaiah. She says, this is a somewhat

832
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: unconventional email to send you, but I wanted to tell

833
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: you about something unconventional that your podcast is done for me.

834
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: I am eighteen years old now, and when I was

835
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: about sixteen I began listening to your podcast, which I

836
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: really enjoy I distinctly remember listening to your podcast where

837
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: you discussed how women are referred to as ladies or

838
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: lady rather than women, which I cannot seem to find

839
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: in your huge archive of past podcast So I hope

840
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: you remember what I'm talking about. Don't worry, Makay, we do.

841
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: She goes on to say, I was on my school

842
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: bus and I remember thinking that the word lady didn't

843
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: feel right for me. Girl and woman didn't seem to

844
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: work either. Trying to call myself these things just felt

845
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: wrong and awkward, but I brushed it off at the time.

846
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: A short time later, I started thinking about my gender

847
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: identity and how something wasn't right, which led to the

848
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: path of my first identity as a Demi girl and

849
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: now as an a gender person. Although I am now

850
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: confident that I am a gender, I will not forget

851
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: how wonderful it felt to find the identity of Demi girl.

852
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: It felt so safe and secure to know that there

853
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 1: was a word for who I was. I have spent

854
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: the last couple of years coming to terms of being

855
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: a sexual, gray, a romantic, and a gender. I like

856
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,800
Speaker 1: to say that I have all of the A specific

857
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: boxes ticked and knowing that I am real and am

858
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: not alone. I'd like to thank you for all of

859
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: your podcasts, but especially for this particular one, which inadvertently

860
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: sparked my journey into self discovery and finding out who

861
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 1: I am. Thank you so so much, and keep being awesome. Well,

862
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: thank you, MICHAELA. And you keep being awesome. Well, I've

863
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: got a letter here from ash Lean about I A Garden,

864
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: and she writes, the whole time I was listening to

865
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: your episode about cooking shows, I was hoping that you

866
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: had mentioned the Barefoot Contessa and A Garden. Sure enough,

867
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: you mentioned her, but I was a little disappointed to

868
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: find out you didn't seem to know about her impressive background. Well,

869
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: she's certainly enjoyed a lot of privilege in her life.

870
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 1: I've always been so impressed by her pre Barefoot Contessa accomplishments.

871
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: Long before coming a successful food network star, ms Garden

872
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: worked in the White House in the Office of Management

873
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: and Budget, working on nuclear energy issues. She has an

874
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: MBA from George Washington University and even has her pilots license.

875
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: Caroline can reassure her boyfriend that she's very educated, successful

876
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: woman who really is living her best life by her

877
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: own choice. Her trajectory reminds me so much of Julia

878
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: Child's having embarked on a second career in cooking only

879
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: after first achieving success in a less stereotypically feminine profession. Anyway,

880
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: I just thought you two lovely feminists, would want to

881
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: know something. My mom definitely did tell me that you

882
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: didn't seem to know. She's a big fan of Ena

883
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 1: Garden and an even bigger fan of providing her daughter

884
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: with many different examples of strong, successful women. Ashleyne, thank

885
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: you so much for this letter. Shout out to Ennah

886
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: Garden and also shout out to your mom. Sounds like

887
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: a rad lady, Um and listeners. Keep your letters coming,

888
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: mom stuff at house stuffworks dot com, where you can

889
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: send them, and for links to all of our social

890
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and

891
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn more about

892
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: knitting and our walls. Head on over to stuff Mom

893
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and

894
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Doesn't have to work dot com