WEBVTT - Julia Samuel 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:09.280 Disgusting food, and as child, did you inedible, my mom 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:11.880 did what we called chicken mess. Oh god. It says 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.840 yesterday's left over chicken with a tin of asarbaragus soup, 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.360 oh god, oh god, a tin of mushroom soup, Oh good, 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.479 and macaroni, and she'd slurp it around. I loved it 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.600 at the time, and then I went back like there 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.000 was in my twenties, and I thought, oh my god, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.040 that really does sound disgusting. Though. I have to say, however, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.360 I can think of some brilli rank things that my 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.440 mother used to make, boiled beef and carrots, spoiling beef. 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:44.199 She's trying to find a way of doing it so 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.080 it would be tender, and it turns out there is 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:52.760 no where. Hello, I'm Mini Driver. Welcome to Many Questions, 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.640 Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question. It was originally 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.440 a nineteenth century parlor game where players would ask each 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.040 other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the other player's 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.800 true nature. It's just the scientific method, really. In asking 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.440 different people the same set of questions, you can make 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.319 observations about which truths appear to be universal. I love 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.759 this discipline and it made me wonder, what if these 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.080 questions were just the jumping off point, what greater depths 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.479 would be revealed if I ask these questions as conversation 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:31.080 starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.200 So I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.080 seven questions that I personally think a pertinent to a 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.440 person's story. They are when and where were you happiest? 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.400 What is the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.480 real or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.280 you most like answered, What person, place, or experience has 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.920 shaped you the most? What would be your last meal? 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.720 And can you tell me something in your life that's 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.160 grown out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.920 group of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.240 and humbled to have had the chance to engage with. 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.160 You may not hear their answers to all seven of 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.080 these questions. We've whittled it down to which questions felt 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:19.480 closest to their experience or the most surprising, or created 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:24.240 the most fertile ground to connect. My guest today is 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:29.480 best selling author and psychotherapist Julia Samuel doing my own 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.920 podcast feels like therapy an awful lot of the time, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.079 so it felt only right to have an actual psychotherapist 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.880 on the show. I was first introduced to Julia's work 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:46.400 when my mom died and somebody gave me her extraordinary book, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.560 which is called Grief Works. And even though I couldn't 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.960 read it right away because reading about other people's experiences 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.240 of grief and loss just compounded my own. But it's interesting. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.480 In the process of grief, you reach a point where 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.680 you need to feel that solidarity, or I did, and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.160 you need to feel like you're not alone. And that 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.760 book helped me so much. And every time I have 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.640 a conversation with Julia, I feel like I unravel some 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.040 deep Gordian knot that I've been holding onto. And this 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:27.480 conversation that we had was no different what person, place, 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.920 or experience most altered your life Working in the NHS. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.440 Will you explain what the NHS is, because I have 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.000 a lot of American listeners. Yes, so the NHS is 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.960 held in this sort of brand of What is the 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.880 best thing about the UK is that you can be 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.880 ill and go into an NHS hospital or doctor and 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.880 at the point of meeting you never have to pay 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.320 whatever is wrong with you, whether it's acute, whether it's chronic, 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:01.440 you will have your health needs met. And it is true. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.800 Of course, it's also broken system because the weight and 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.800 burden of it is so enormous. But for me, I mean, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.440 I'm now on the Ethics Commission of Imperial College because 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.960 I couldn't leave it, and I still meet the doctors. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.560 So for me, I would walk there from home. It's 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.040 about half an hour walk from when I was thirty two, 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:28.640 an hours fifty six and wearing my lanyard. I loved 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:34.080 my NHS lanyard that would give me ten percent of 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.000 from the coffee shop. But also beat doors, opened the door, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.520 and as I beaked into the door, there's this crappy 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.320 building that is Victorian and falling apart. But I belonged, 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.719 and there was a little sign that said, you know, 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.240 psychotherapists this way. And it was this thing of being 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.000 part of something that was so much bigger than me. 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.880 There was the building that contained me, the people in 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.880 it who I knew for decades, the nurses, the amazing doctors, 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.440 going up to the special care baby unit, going into 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.840 the pediatric intensive care unit, working on the maternity wards, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.720 the families I met who when I was there, there 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.240 was seventy five languages spoke in the hospital every day, 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.680 so I met thousands of types of lives and living 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:24.000 and beliefs, and it expanded me. And I kept my lanyard. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:25.640 I can't I don't know what to do with it. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.320 I honestly want to kind of embalm it in silver 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:34.320 frame it. Oh my gosh, definitely I'll do that for you. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.279 I have to say, that's the most inspiring answer to 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.839 that question I think I've ever heard on this podcast, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.240 because it is the thing that makes me proudest to 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.320 be British is the NHS. It's the fact that we 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.159 postwar like looked at what had happened to all these people, 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.160 and as a society and as a country, made this 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.320 change to go. We will have socialized medicine. No one 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.799 will pay for healthcare. We will take care of everybody. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.280 There was just something out a country that wraps its 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.120 arms around you, and then that people go and that 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.040 you work there for peanuts. You work there and you 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.480 are in service. All the nurses and all the doctors 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:14.960 and all the people that work on those wards are 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.560 there in service of the people that live in that country, 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.960 and there's something that is so beautiful and community based, 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.880 so it's incredible. It was incredible being part of something 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.360 where I saw those doctors would work fifteen hours to 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.680 save a child's life. I would support teams of nurses 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.680 when there's been a death, or and doctors, or we 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.760 go out and have most disgusting pizza to celebrate it Christmas. 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.000 But it was the best Christmas party I ever had, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.200 you know, all of those things because of the dark 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:49.280 humor and the knowing each other and the tears and 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.360 the hugs and the intensity and the exhaustion. But also 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.960 they saved lives and I had a tiny part to 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.719 playing that. I supported the families through them and it 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:06.640 was just I feel so lucky. So what quality do 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.840 you like least about yourself? Do you have an alm? Yeah? 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.640 Actually I do quite like myself. But the one I 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.440 don't like because it scares me, is I'm not good 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.840 with my own anger. It kind of sits in me 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.600 and it kind of ruminates and tox ifies all my 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.840 other feelings. And except for my husband, I'm really good 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.400 at being angry with and he's quite good at kind 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.640 of dealing with me when I'm angry, I'm not good 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.920 at expressing it, and then of course it hangs around, 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:37.640 and then I kind of wake up at four in 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.880 the morning wanting to punch someone's lights out, rather than 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:42.400 as I would tell them to do if they were 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.640 my client, to be a sort of talk clearly, say 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.119 what you're upset about, you be specific, But I don't. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.280 I don't do it myself very much because I'm so 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.920 friended of them knocking me out when I'm angry with it? 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.040 Has that happened? Have you been overwhelmed by your rage? 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.720 Twice with one of my children and with my husband? 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.080 That is not said with pride. I understand that I 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.160 feel like everybody has, and the people we are angry 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.080 is with and hate the most normally well, in my case, 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.960 the people I love the most and need the most. 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.000 In difference is the opposite of love, isn't it not hate? 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.120 So it's people that really make okay. I can be 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.920 annoyed with someone at work, we don't really want to 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.160 punch their lights. It's people that I really care about 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.960 who really get to me. I think that's a very 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.320 noble way of looking at anger. I don't know there's 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.120 someone right now who I am so angry with, and 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.920 they are not somebody that I love, and they've triggered 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.280 in me all of these feelings of like lack of 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.240 self worth and there are really in quotes powerful person 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.320 and the fact that they're a woman makes everything worse. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.480 But it's funny. I've just sort of been sitting with 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.680 the anger, and as opposed to being triggered by it, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.720 I've sort of been. I've been trying to be fascinated 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.600 by it and interested and curious, and it hasn't shifted 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.480 anything yet, but it feels slightly more or being the 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.400 observer with it than being in it. It's weird. It 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.440 makes my heart beat faster actually thinking about even thinking 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.440 about it. It's so interesting with such little animals. I mean, 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.679 we really are. We We forget because we think we're 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.000 so bloody clever, but we're really not very well animals, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.760 and we respond like animals. And I mean, I would 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.040 guess I have not the faintest idea and I could 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.040 be completely wrong that the level of your anger is 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:27.240 probably to do with an earlier part of you that 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.320 felt overpowered by someone it is that probably wasn't this person. No, 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.040 it's exactly right. It was being bullied by a girl 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.280 when I was younger. It's the same feeling of powerlessness 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.040 to make them like you. But that comes with shame. 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.000 It's huge amount of shame because you can't help but go. 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.319 There must be something wrong with me because this person 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.320 doesn't like me as opposed to there is something going 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.080 on with them that makes them need to be whatever 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.720 it is, aggressive or intolerant of people around them. But 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.120 I don't know. I like the idea that even someone 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.280 like you who helps people all the time with the 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.480 things that are difficult in their own lives, that of 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:04.800 course you deal with things that are difficult about your 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.439 own character, but that the awareness is surely what makes 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.800 it bearable. I mean, I have as many flaws and 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.640 battles as other people. I can probably tell you what 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.400 my flaws are because I have quite a lot of 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.520 insight after like thirty two years of doing this thing. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.400 But I'm as flawed as everybody else. And for my family, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.760 it's unbelievably annoying when people come up to them and 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:34.120 say things to my husband like, oh, your wife, she's amazing, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.880 She's amazing. I mean, this must happen to you too. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.080 And he literally wants to say well, he does say, well, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.760 you should try being married to her, and then they 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.760 say no, and I'm standing there. I've just been a 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.600 complete cow in the car, all the way wherever it is, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:54.240 been a total bit And then I'm smiling. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:56.520 oh my god. But this is what When I came 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.200 on your podcast, we talked about this, because I'm still 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.040 obsessed with it. I think I've been upset with it. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.200 My whole life is the idea of being completely aware 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.000 of a quality that is not necessarily a good quality 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.320 that we see about ourselves, and the effect that it 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.319 has on the world around us, and yet there doesn't 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.439 seem to be any evolution in the way in which 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.200 one interacts with it apart from having an awareness. I 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.880 literally feel like I went from being ignorant about my 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.320 ship to being completely aware of it and being able 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.000 to talk about it and give it a name and 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.400 be articulate and probably right about it, and yet I 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:32.920 haven't seen any actionable change. I always thought that becoming 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.600 aware about something would be the kind of nascent point 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.319 of the evolution of that difficult thing. And why the 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.880 fund is that not true? Because you're who ever told 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.280 you that knowing something and naming it would make you 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.960 three hundred and six degrees unflawed. I do. I have 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.240 this idea that there is this place where you can 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.319 take all of the hard things about yourself, and that 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.240 if you do the right things, you can clean them 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.800 up and then they will heal and you will be 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.960 a better person. Well, I don't know which books you've 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:09.560 been reading, but from my understanding is it isn't that 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.719 we take our bad stuff, turned it up and make 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.720 it look nice and shiny and new. It's that we 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.560 have all the wounds that we had. We get ignited, annoyed, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.680 triggered in the same ways that we always have the 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.600 same fault lines. The thing that awareness does, it means 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.280 that we can choose between response and action. So you 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.960 have that moment where you choose, and in that choice 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:40.319 is the difference between a serious disaster and actually speaking 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.920 out for yourself. Because how you represent that part of 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.520 you that wants to say, punch this woman's lights out 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.480 will be informed by all the different aspects of yourself 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.800 that are going on. But you can do it with 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.640 a kind of confidence and assertiveness. I mean, I'm saying 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.959 this having not been good at anger myself. But what 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.480 I'm arguing is that there is never going to be 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.280 a picture perfect version of any one of us. It's 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.839 how we manage our fault lines and frailties and stuff. Well, 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.680 perhaps that's what I can work on, or that we 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.480 could all work on. Is managing I mean, Julia, I'm 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.520 ashamed that I wrote a book called Managing Expectations, and 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:36.120 yet my expectations are completely unmanageable. What relationship, real or fictionalized, 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.360 defines love for you? It is my husband. I mean, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.839 I've been married forty two years. I got married when 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:47.040 I was twenty wow, and I'm sixty three, and without question, 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.120 it was the single best decision I ever made in 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.520 my life, and one I did really from complete ignorance. 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.679 I mean, I was literally just twenty. I got engaged 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.520 two weeks after my twentieth birthday. Holy ca. I mean, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:05.640 I want to run him over, obviously, and all of 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.040 those things. But he knows me, and he loves me 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.439 as he knows me, and I feel safe with him. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:17.079 What are the chances of two people's evolution as parallel 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.640 individuals but joined together in holy matrimony? What are the 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.920 chances that you would manage to evolve in concert with 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.320 each other, and are there things that you both had 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.400 to do in order for that to work. I think 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.160 that if you look at the stats, it's just under 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:39.320 probably couples divorce, but more couples don't marry, and their 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.520 stats of separation are higher than divorce. But to marry 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.960 somebody at twenty, when you're closer to a child, you're 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.440 closer to being a little child than you are to 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.960 being like who you are today? Like what's your husband's name? Michael? 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.040 So you and Michael? Like I just find it fascinating 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.760 that if he was in his twenties that twenty year 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.120 old Michael and twenty year old Julia can have of two, thirty, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.760 thirty five and now sixty. My aunt who was married 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.160 for sixty years, she said it was just a decision. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.440 It's a decision that you keep making every single day, 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.120 and that it's no more complicated than that. But I 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.080 feel like there must be some extraordinary thing that people 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:18.680 who get married in their twenties and are still married 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.080 when they're sixty one do or figure out, and what 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.040 can you please tell me what that is? I think 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.520 your aunt is right I think he's partly a decision. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.560 I think all the things that you've heard, you know, 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.840 many times from many people before, is like if you 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.080 ask yourself the question, are we a good fit? Do 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.520 we have the same beliefs? Do we have the same outlook? 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.840 Are we good at repairing after a rupture? Do we 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.640 talk the same or collaborative love language? Do we love 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.040 each other in the right way? You know that works 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.560 for each of us. I mean, one of the things 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.800 that works for me is that I have to work 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.880 quite hard to get his attention and his love, and 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.800 that is quite good for me. It really drives me nuts, 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:03.240 but it keeps to be interested, right. And also the 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.360 kind of other men that I was brought up with, 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.320 they never believed in me to work or have a 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.920 career or to use my brain. And he always and 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.800 his mother actually always from the moment we got together, 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:17.960 wanted me to work. I think he wanted me to 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.000 work because he wanted me to be tired and less sassy, 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.400 less sassy and not having affairs tire her out. Should 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.440 be too tired to have an affair, should be too 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.120 tired to give me lip. I think that is part 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.800 of it, and the idea of me having lunch people 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.160 all the time and shopping. It just was not his thing. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.920 But luckily I always worked, So I mean I worked 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.240 from when I left school at sixteen. I've never not 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.480 had a job. That's really funny. I love that love 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.360 would be having you know, a really robust work ethic 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.520 for your partner Like that's that's really sexy and romantic 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.880 actually because there's longevity built into that. Well, because he 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.040 doesn't have to meet all of my needs now. And 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.640 I think that's also the biggest misnomer is the idea 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.120 that our love partner should somehow tick all of the 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.040 boxes of the things that we need from other people. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.240 It's just absolute bollocks. So I mean having a job 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.320 that I find that I can do, which because he 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.160 earns a lot more than me, he enabled me to do. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.840 I have a completely different work identity where I'm not 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.040 known as his wife, I'm not known as a mother. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.320 I'm known for my job as a therapisn't that I 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.960 can go on doing? You know, all of my lot 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.560 of my friends, their children have left home, the husbands 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.199 are retiring, and they're kind of you know, working in 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.480 bits and bobs. But I have this kind of machine 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.399 inside my brain that just wants to keep going, and 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.080 it keeps me interested, and I think it keeps me interesting. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.119 I mean I'm not always interesting, obviously, but having a 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.480 purpose to get up for. Freud talked about love and work. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.440 You need love for connection and meaning, but you also 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.240 need work for structure and meaning. And you know, what 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.560 are you for? I've always known what am I fault? 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.240 It is so interesting curiosity, enthusiasm. I mean, my mother 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.719 did everything she possibly could to keep her businesses afloat 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.399 and was constantly making financial choices that were startling to 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.200 her children and maybe to other people of why she 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.919 would keep investing in things that, by their metric weren't working. 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.440 And it's not the only metric, it's not. And I 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.359 saw it was worth it. It was worth her putting 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.560 all the money that she had into these businesses because 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.880 her interest and her curiosity and her work ethic that's 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.840 what made her happy. And the idea of sort of 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.320 saving all her money, I think it was very much like, well, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:33.840 what am I saving it for? I need to keep 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.159 investing in being engaged with life in the way that 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.000 I see it. I really understand that, like how that 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.480 fuels a life and keeps a person interested and interesting. 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.600 Being sixty two year sixty three, I'm of the age 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.920 in the background, and I was never expected to work. 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.160 So I have a twin brother who my father expected 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.560 to go to university to go and get a job 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:59.000 and to carry on working. Whereas when the school said 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.520 to my dad she should say gay levels, my father went, 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.919 what for? What would you be going to university for? 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.800 What is the point? And it made a decision to 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.400 me From a very young age. I can remember sitting 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.439 at my desk in my bedroom and to share with 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.240 my sister who didn't like you at all, and doing 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.520 my homework and work for me has been a savor, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.560 so using my brain, having homework to do, getting a 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.800 job done, and it's probably been too much, but being 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.680 determined to do it has saved me from many holes. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.760 I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more work Before 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.280 my son, work really was the great love of my life, 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.640 I mean, and still is in a more balanced way. 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.560 I think when I talked to clients, who are you 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.840 know in the stage like my daughters are, of having 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.200 children and working, even keeping your foot in the work 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.320 door to go back to that you can kind of 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.119 work part time while you're parenting, then you can go 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.359 back to it, because you know, it's likely if we're lucky, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.639 that we're going to have a long life. The average 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.320 life expectancy for those of us that are kind of 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.080 lucky as well is a hundred. So what were we 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.160 going to do with all of that time if we're 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:15.520 not working? Yeah, it can't all be Love Island, Julia, clearly, 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.160 Can you tell me about something that has grown out 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.600 of a personal disaster? I can't. As it happens, I 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:32.719 first went to a a when I was five. I 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.119 started smoking when I was seven. That's a picture of 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.879 me writing lines with my twin brother, Hugo, I promise 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:44.080 I will never smoke again. And I started drinking when 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.520 I was about eleven, and everyone in my family drank 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:53.040 a huge amount. And luckily, I literally woke up one 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.040 day and I thought, I just can't do this. I 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.159 can't do this, And I tried doing it on my 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.920 own without a and I sort of count the number 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.040 of units and then I do deals with myself the 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.520 whole time, like if I more today, then I won't 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.560 have to tomorrow, you know, But you get pissed one night. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:09.760 Then you'd have a hangover two days and then get 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.440 pissed like day three or for whatever it is. And 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.360 so I went to A and I did not speak 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.639 a word for like two years. I only went twice 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.000 a week. I went at lunchtimes. It was near my office. 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.760 That's what got me interested in therapy. I had no 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.480 idea people could talk about how they felt. That was 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.919 a whole new world to me. I always thought you 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.720 just faked it and pretended everything was fine until I 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:35.879 went to A. So that was your first experience of 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.960 therapy was seeing somebody getting up to share. Was it 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.560 shocking hearing them speak about how they felt about their 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:45.800 life and the things that happened to them. I was 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.119 completely blown away, completely blown away. And the only person 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.239 I told I was going was my husband because I 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.959 didn't dare tell anybody because then, you know, this is 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.280 forty forty years ago, was still quite shaming. Then there 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.679 was a diction, was still quite a shameful thing. I 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.879 haven't drank since then at all, But then when I 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:07.840 used to go out for dinner, people would like look 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.280 at me weirdly when I wasn't drinking, and they kind 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.280 of try and ply you with drink and stuff. But 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.199 it was a complete revelation. It was amazing. But I 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.560 didn't speak. I was just learning and taking it in, 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:20.840 and I'd rehearse in my head what I would say, 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.400