1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Disgusting food, and as child, did you inedible, my mom 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: did what we called chicken mess. Oh god. It says 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: yesterday's left over chicken with a tin of asarbaragus soup, 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: oh god, oh god, a tin of mushroom soup, Oh good, 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: and macaroni, and she'd slurp it around. I loved it 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: at the time, and then I went back like there 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: was in my twenties, and I thought, oh my god, 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: that really does sound disgusting. Though. I have to say, however, 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: I can think of some brilli rank things that my 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: mother used to make, boiled beef and carrots, spoiling beef. 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: She's trying to find a way of doing it so 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: it would be tender, and it turns out there is 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: no where. Hello, I'm Mini Driver. Welcome to Many Questions, 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question. It was originally 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: a nineteenth century parlor game where players would ask each 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the other player's 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: true nature. It's just the scientific method, really. In asking 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: different people the same set of questions, you can make 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: observations about which truths appear to be universal. I love 20 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: this discipline and it made me wonder, what if these 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: questions were just the jumping off point, what greater depths 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: would be revealed if I ask these questions as conversation 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: So I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: seven questions that I personally think a pertinent to a 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: person's story. They are when and where were you happiest? 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: What is the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: real or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: you most like answered, What person, place, or experience has 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: shaped you the most? What would be your last meal? 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: And can you tell me something in your life that's 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: grown out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: group of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: and humbled to have had the chance to engage with. 35 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: You may not hear their answers to all seven of 36 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: these questions. We've whittled it down to which questions felt 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: closest to their experience or the most surprising, or created 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: the most fertile ground to connect. My guest today is 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: best selling author and psychotherapist Julia Samuel doing my own 40 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: podcast feels like therapy an awful lot of the time, 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: so it felt only right to have an actual psychotherapist 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: on the show. I was first introduced to Julia's work 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: when my mom died and somebody gave me her extraordinary book, 44 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: which is called Grief Works. And even though I couldn't 45 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: read it right away because reading about other people's experiences 46 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: of grief and loss just compounded my own. But it's interesting. 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: In the process of grief, you reach a point where 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: you need to feel that solidarity, or I did, and 49 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: you need to feel like you're not alone. And that 50 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: book helped me so much. And every time I have 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: a conversation with Julia, I feel like I unravel some 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: deep Gordian knot that I've been holding onto. And this 53 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: conversation that we had was no different what person, place, 54 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: or experience most altered your life Working in the NHS. 55 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: Will you explain what the NHS is, because I have 56 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: a lot of American listeners. Yes, so the NHS is 57 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: held in this sort of brand of What is the 58 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: best thing about the UK is that you can be 59 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: ill and go into an NHS hospital or doctor and 60 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: at the point of meeting you never have to pay 61 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: whatever is wrong with you, whether it's acute, whether it's chronic, 62 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: you will have your health needs met. And it is true. 63 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: Of course, it's also broken system because the weight and 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: burden of it is so enormous. But for me, I mean, 65 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: I'm now on the Ethics Commission of Imperial College because 66 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't leave it, and I still meet the doctors. 67 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: So for me, I would walk there from home. It's 68 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: about half an hour walk from when I was thirty two, 69 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: an hours fifty six and wearing my lanyard. I loved 70 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: my NHS lanyard that would give me ten percent of 71 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: from the coffee shop. But also beat doors, opened the door, 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: and as I beaked into the door, there's this crappy 73 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: building that is Victorian and falling apart. But I belonged, 74 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: and there was a little sign that said, you know, 75 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: psychotherapists this way. And it was this thing of being 76 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: part of something that was so much bigger than me. 77 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: There was the building that contained me, the people in 78 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: it who I knew for decades, the nurses, the amazing doctors, 79 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: going up to the special care baby unit, going into 80 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: the pediatric intensive care unit, working on the maternity wards, 81 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: the families I met who when I was there, there 82 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: was seventy five languages spoke in the hospital every day, 83 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: so I met thousands of types of lives and living 84 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: and beliefs, and it expanded me. And I kept my lanyard. 85 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: I can't I don't know what to do with it. 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: I honestly want to kind of embalm it in silver 87 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: frame it. Oh my gosh, definitely I'll do that for you. 88 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: I have to say, that's the most inspiring answer to 89 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: that question I think I've ever heard on this podcast, 90 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: because it is the thing that makes me proudest to 91 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: be British is the NHS. It's the fact that we 92 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: postwar like looked at what had happened to all these people, 93 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: and as a society and as a country, made this 94 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: change to go. We will have socialized medicine. No one 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: will pay for healthcare. We will take care of everybody. 96 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: There was just something out a country that wraps its 97 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: arms around you, and then that people go and that 98 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: you work there for peanuts. You work there and you 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: are in service. All the nurses and all the doctors 100 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: and all the people that work on those wards are 101 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: there in service of the people that live in that country, 102 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: and there's something that is so beautiful and community based, 103 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: so it's incredible. It was incredible being part of something 104 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: where I saw those doctors would work fifteen hours to 105 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: save a child's life. I would support teams of nurses 106 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: when there's been a death, or and doctors, or we 107 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: go out and have most disgusting pizza to celebrate it Christmas. 108 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: But it was the best Christmas party I ever had, 109 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, all of those things because of the dark 110 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: humor and the knowing each other and the tears and 111 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: the hugs and the intensity and the exhaustion. But also 112 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: they saved lives and I had a tiny part to 113 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: playing that. I supported the families through them and it 114 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: was just I feel so lucky. So what quality do 115 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: you like least about yourself? Do you have an alm? Yeah? 116 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: Actually I do quite like myself. But the one I 117 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: don't like because it scares me, is I'm not good 118 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: with my own anger. It kind of sits in me 119 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: and it kind of ruminates and tox ifies all my 120 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: other feelings. And except for my husband, I'm really good 121 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: at being angry with and he's quite good at kind 122 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: of dealing with me when I'm angry, I'm not good 123 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: at expressing it, and then of course it hangs around, 124 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: and then I kind of wake up at four in 125 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the morning wanting to punch someone's lights out, rather than 126 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: as I would tell them to do if they were 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: my client, to be a sort of talk clearly, say 128 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: what you're upset about, you be specific, But I don't. 129 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: I don't do it myself very much because I'm so 130 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: friended of them knocking me out when I'm angry with it? 131 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: Has that happened? Have you been overwhelmed by your rage? 132 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: Twice with one of my children and with my husband? 133 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: That is not said with pride. I understand that I 134 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: feel like everybody has, and the people we are angry 135 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: is with and hate the most normally well, in my case, 136 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: the people I love the most and need the most. 137 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: In difference is the opposite of love, isn't it not hate? 138 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: So it's people that really make okay. I can be 139 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: annoyed with someone at work, we don't really want to 140 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: punch their lights. It's people that I really care about 141 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: who really get to me. I think that's a very 142 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: noble way of looking at anger. I don't know there's 143 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: someone right now who I am so angry with, and 144 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: they are not somebody that I love, and they've triggered 145 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: in me all of these feelings of like lack of 146 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: self worth and there are really in quotes powerful person 147 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: and the fact that they're a woman makes everything worse. 148 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: But it's funny. I've just sort of been sitting with 149 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: the anger, and as opposed to being triggered by it, 150 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: I've sort of been. I've been trying to be fascinated 151 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: by it and interested and curious, and it hasn't shifted 152 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: anything yet, but it feels slightly more or being the 153 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: observer with it than being in it. It's weird. It 154 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: makes my heart beat faster actually thinking about even thinking 155 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: about it. It's so interesting with such little animals. I mean, 156 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: we really are. We We forget because we think we're 157 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: so bloody clever, but we're really not very well animals, 158 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: and we respond like animals. And I mean, I would 159 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: guess I have not the faintest idea and I could 160 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: be completely wrong that the level of your anger is 161 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: probably to do with an earlier part of you that 162 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: felt overpowered by someone it is that probably wasn't this person. No, 163 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: it's exactly right. It was being bullied by a girl 164 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: when I was younger. It's the same feeling of powerlessness 165 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: to make them like you. But that comes with shame. 166 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: It's huge amount of shame because you can't help but go. 167 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: There must be something wrong with me because this person 168 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: doesn't like me as opposed to there is something going 169 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: on with them that makes them need to be whatever 170 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: it is, aggressive or intolerant of people around them. But 171 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. I like the idea that even someone 172 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: like you who helps people all the time with the 173 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: things that are difficult in their own lives, that of 174 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: course you deal with things that are difficult about your 175 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: own character, but that the awareness is surely what makes 176 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: it bearable. I mean, I have as many flaws and 177 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: battles as other people. I can probably tell you what 178 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: my flaws are because I have quite a lot of 179 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: insight after like thirty two years of doing this thing. 180 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: But I'm as flawed as everybody else. And for my family, 181 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: it's unbelievably annoying when people come up to them and 182 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: say things to my husband like, oh, your wife, she's amazing, 183 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: She's amazing. I mean, this must happen to you too. 184 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: And he literally wants to say well, he does say, well, 185 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: you should try being married to her, and then they 186 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: say no, and I'm standing there. I've just been a 187 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: complete cow in the car, all the way wherever it is, 188 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: been a total bit And then I'm smiling. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, 189 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: oh my god. But this is what When I came 190 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: on your podcast, we talked about this, because I'm still 191 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with it. I think I've been upset with it. 192 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: My whole life is the idea of being completely aware 193 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: of a quality that is not necessarily a good quality 194 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: that we see about ourselves, and the effect that it 195 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: has on the world around us, and yet there doesn't 196 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: seem to be any evolution in the way in which 197 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: one interacts with it apart from having an awareness. I 198 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: literally feel like I went from being ignorant about my 199 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: ship to being completely aware of it and being able 200 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: to talk about it and give it a name and 201 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: be articulate and probably right about it, and yet I 202 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: haven't seen any actionable change. I always thought that becoming 203 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: aware about something would be the kind of nascent point 204 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: of the evolution of that difficult thing. And why the 205 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: fund is that not true? Because you're who ever told 206 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: you that knowing something and naming it would make you 207 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: three hundred and six degrees unflawed. I do. I have 208 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: this idea that there is this place where you can 209 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: take all of the hard things about yourself, and that 210 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: if you do the right things, you can clean them 211 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: up and then they will heal and you will be 212 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: a better person. Well, I don't know which books you've 213 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: been reading, but from my understanding is it isn't that 214 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: we take our bad stuff, turned it up and make 215 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: it look nice and shiny and new. It's that we 216 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: have all the wounds that we had. We get ignited, annoyed, 217 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: triggered in the same ways that we always have the 218 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: same fault lines. The thing that awareness does, it means 219 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: that we can choose between response and action. So you 220 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: have that moment where you choose, and in that choice 221 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: is the difference between a serious disaster and actually speaking 222 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: out for yourself. Because how you represent that part of 223 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: you that wants to say, punch this woman's lights out 224 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: will be informed by all the different aspects of yourself 225 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: that are going on. But you can do it with 226 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: a kind of confidence and assertiveness. I mean, I'm saying 227 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: this having not been good at anger myself. But what 228 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: I'm arguing is that there is never going to be 229 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: a picture perfect version of any one of us. It's 230 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: how we manage our fault lines and frailties and stuff. Well, 231 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: perhaps that's what I can work on, or that we 232 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: could all work on. Is managing I mean, Julia, I'm 233 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: ashamed that I wrote a book called Managing Expectations, and 234 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: yet my expectations are completely unmanageable. What relationship, real or fictionalized, 235 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: defines love for you? It is my husband. I mean, 236 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: I've been married forty two years. I got married when 237 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: I was twenty wow, and I'm sixty three, and without question, 238 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: it was the single best decision I ever made in 239 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: my life, and one I did really from complete ignorance. 240 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I was literally just twenty. I got engaged 241 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: two weeks after my twentieth birthday. Holy ca. I mean, 242 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: I want to run him over, obviously, and all of 243 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: those things. But he knows me, and he loves me 244 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: as he knows me, and I feel safe with him. 245 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: What are the chances of two people's evolution as parallel 246 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: individuals but joined together in holy matrimony? What are the 247 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: chances that you would manage to evolve in concert with 248 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: each other, and are there things that you both had 249 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: to do in order for that to work. I think 250 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: that if you look at the stats, it's just under 251 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: probably couples divorce, but more couples don't marry, and their 252 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: stats of separation are higher than divorce. But to marry 253 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: somebody at twenty, when you're closer to a child, you're 254 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: closer to being a little child than you are to 255 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: being like who you are today? Like what's your husband's name? Michael? 256 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: So you and Michael? Like I just find it fascinating 257 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: that if he was in his twenties that twenty year 258 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: old Michael and twenty year old Julia can have of two, thirty, 259 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: thirty five and now sixty. My aunt who was married 260 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: for sixty years, she said it was just a decision. 261 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: It's a decision that you keep making every single day, 262 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: and that it's no more complicated than that. But I 263 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: feel like there must be some extraordinary thing that people 264 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: who get married in their twenties and are still married 265 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: when they're sixty one do or figure out, and what 266 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: can you please tell me what that is? I think 267 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: your aunt is right I think he's partly a decision. 268 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: I think all the things that you've heard, you know, 269 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: many times from many people before, is like if you 270 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: ask yourself the question, are we a good fit? Do 271 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: we have the same beliefs? Do we have the same outlook? 272 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: Are we good at repairing after a rupture? Do we 273 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: talk the same or collaborative love language? Do we love 274 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: each other in the right way? You know that works 275 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: for each of us. I mean, one of the things 276 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: that works for me is that I have to work 277 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: quite hard to get his attention and his love, and 278 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: that is quite good for me. It really drives me nuts, 279 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: but it keeps to be interested, right. And also the 280 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: kind of other men that I was brought up with, 281 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: they never believed in me to work or have a 282 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: career or to use my brain. And he always and 283 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: his mother actually always from the moment we got together, 284 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: wanted me to work. I think he wanted me to 285 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: work because he wanted me to be tired and less sassy, 286 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: less sassy and not having affairs tire her out. Should 287 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: be too tired to have an affair, should be too 288 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: tired to give me lip. I think that is part 289 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: of it, and the idea of me having lunch people 290 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: all the time and shopping. It just was not his thing. 291 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: But luckily I always worked, So I mean I worked 292 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: from when I left school at sixteen. I've never not 293 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: had a job. That's really funny. I love that love 294 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: would be having you know, a really robust work ethic 295 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: for your partner Like that's that's really sexy and romantic 296 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: actually because there's longevity built into that. Well, because he 297 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have to meet all of my needs now. And 298 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: I think that's also the biggest misnomer is the idea 299 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: that our love partner should somehow tick all of the 300 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: boxes of the things that we need from other people. 301 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: It's just absolute bollocks. So I mean having a job 302 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: that I find that I can do, which because he 303 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: earns a lot more than me, he enabled me to do. 304 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: I have a completely different work identity where I'm not 305 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: known as his wife, I'm not known as a mother. 306 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: I'm known for my job as a therapisn't that I 307 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: can go on doing? You know, all of my lot 308 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: of my friends, their children have left home, the husbands 309 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: are retiring, and they're kind of you know, working in 310 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: bits and bobs. But I have this kind of machine 311 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: inside my brain that just wants to keep going, and 312 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: it keeps me interested, and I think it keeps me interesting. 313 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: I mean I'm not always interesting, obviously, but having a 314 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: purpose to get up for. Freud talked about love and work. 315 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: You need love for connection and meaning, but you also 316 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: need work for structure and meaning. And you know, what 317 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: are you for? I've always known what am I fault? 318 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: It is so interesting curiosity, enthusiasm. I mean, my mother 319 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: did everything she possibly could to keep her businesses afloat 320 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: and was constantly making financial choices that were startling to 321 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: her children and maybe to other people of why she 322 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: would keep investing in things that, by their metric weren't working. 323 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: And it's not the only metric, it's not. And I 324 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: saw it was worth it. It was worth her putting 325 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: all the money that she had into these businesses because 326 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: her interest and her curiosity and her work ethic that's 327 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: what made her happy. And the idea of sort of 328 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: saving all her money, I think it was very much like, well, 329 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: what am I saving it for? I need to keep 330 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: investing in being engaged with life in the way that 331 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: I see it. I really understand that, like how that 332 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: fuels a life and keeps a person interested and interesting. 333 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: Being sixty two year sixty three, I'm of the age 334 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: in the background, and I was never expected to work. 335 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: So I have a twin brother who my father expected 336 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: to go to university to go and get a job 337 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: and to carry on working. Whereas when the school said 338 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: to my dad she should say gay levels, my father went, 339 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: what for? What would you be going to university for? 340 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: What is the point? And it made a decision to 341 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: me From a very young age. I can remember sitting 342 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: at my desk in my bedroom and to share with 343 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: my sister who didn't like you at all, and doing 344 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: my homework and work for me has been a savor, 345 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: so using my brain, having homework to do, getting a 346 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: job done, and it's probably been too much, but being 347 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: determined to do it has saved me from many holes. 348 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more work Before 349 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: my son, work really was the great love of my life, 350 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: I mean, and still is in a more balanced way. 351 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: I think when I talked to clients, who are you 352 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: know in the stage like my daughters are, of having 353 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: children and working, even keeping your foot in the work 354 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: door to go back to that you can kind of 355 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: work part time while you're parenting, then you can go 356 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: back to it, because you know, it's likely if we're lucky, 357 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: that we're going to have a long life. The average 358 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: life expectancy for those of us that are kind of 359 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: lucky as well is a hundred. So what were we 360 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: going to do with all of that time if we're 361 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: not working? Yeah, it can't all be Love Island, Julia, clearly, 362 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about something that has grown out 363 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: of a personal disaster? I can't. As it happens, I 364 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: first went to a a when I was five. I 365 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: started smoking when I was seven. That's a picture of 366 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: me writing lines with my twin brother, Hugo, I promise 367 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: I will never smoke again. And I started drinking when 368 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: I was about eleven, and everyone in my family drank 369 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: a huge amount. And luckily, I literally woke up one 370 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: day and I thought, I just can't do this. I 371 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: can't do this, And I tried doing it on my 372 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: own without a and I sort of count the number 373 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: of units and then I do deals with myself the 374 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: whole time, like if I more today, then I won't 375 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: have to tomorrow, you know, But you get pissed one night. 376 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: Then you'd have a hangover two days and then get 377 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: pissed like day three or for whatever it is. And 378 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: so I went to A and I did not speak 379 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: a word for like two years. I only went twice 380 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: a week. I went at lunchtimes. It was near my office. 381 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: That's what got me interested in therapy. I had no 382 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: idea people could talk about how they felt. That was 383 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: a whole new world to me. I always thought you 384 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: just faked it and pretended everything was fine until I 385 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: went to A. So that was your first experience of 386 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: therapy was seeing somebody getting up to share. Was it 387 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: shocking hearing them speak about how they felt about their 388 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: life and the things that happened to them. I was 389 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: completely blown away, completely blown away. And the only person 390 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 1: I told I was going was my husband because I 391 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 1: didn't dare tell anybody because then, you know, this is 392 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: forty forty years ago, was still quite shaming. Then there 393 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: was a diction, was still quite a shameful thing. I 394 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: haven't drank since then at all, But then when I 395 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: used to go out for dinner, people would like look 396 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: at me weirdly when I wasn't drinking, and they kind 397 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: of try and ply you with drink and stuff. But 398 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: it was a complete revelation. It was amazing. But I 399 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: didn't speak. I was just learning and taking it in, 400 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: and I'd rehearse in my head what I would say, 401 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: and I never dared actually speak it out. What made 402 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: you eventually raise your hand? I can't remember. I genuinely 403 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: can't remember. I would tell you, but I do remember speaking. 404 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: And I didn't die, and the sky didn't fall in 405 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: and people were kind. Did you have a sponsor even 406 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: when you weren't speaking? I just like it was literally, 407 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: like it was my secret. I'd go in on Tuesdays 408 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: and Thursdays and sneak out. I must have been ashamed 409 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: of it. Well, you stayed, which is the only thing 410 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: that matters. He stayed, and I stayed sober. He showed 411 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: up when he stayed sober, amazing. I was cycling this 412 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: morning and I had the first time I've ever had 413 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: this thought, what if I start drinking again? What would 414 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: happen if I started drinking again? And I thought, oh, 415 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: that's such a dangerous thought. That is the gateway to 416 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: Julius Samon. You do not want to go down because 417 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: you don't know what's the point of risking it. Yeah, 418 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: I second that, Julia Samuel. Yes, I'll be the echo 419 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: to your Jiminy cricket, keep cycling, don't drink. So what 420 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: question would you most like answered? I'm going to have 421 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: to put this in context. So the context is that 422 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: my specialty is children and babies dying. So for for 423 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: like thirty years, I've supported families who have children and 424 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: babies that and so my perception of children living to 425 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: a long life has been changed by hours every working 426 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: with terrible death. So my question, which actually makes me 427 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: christ saying it, is are my children and my grandchildren 428 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: going to live and have a long life? Because it's 429 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: what I want more than anything else in the world, 430 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: makes my heart stop. I'm sure I can imagine exponentially 431 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: as a grandmother, but it is the worst thought in 432 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: the entire world as a mother, like it is, it's 433 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: heart stopping. If you knew the answer that question, would 434 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: it change the way in which you lived your life? Yeah? 435 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: I mean every night before I go to sleep, I 436 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: thank God that my children are alive, and one of 437 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: my grandchildren I say their name, every single one of them, 438 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: and my sons in law and my daughter in law 439 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm not an anxious person, and I don't feel anxious 440 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: all the time, but I think I would feel liberated 441 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: in some way of having that as my worst worry. Yeah, listen, 442 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: it's an awful to carry around having one child, having 443 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: multiple children who then have partners and their own children. 444 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: It's a lot and a joy, you know, it's the 445 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: greatest joy as well. You know. Love is a risky business, right, Yes, 446 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: it really really is, and it is not build as such. 447 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,479 Speaker 1: I feel like I was sold a very odd bit 448 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: of goods. I think by myself being the small shopkeeper 449 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: that I was selling this idea that love was going 450 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: to solve everything, as opposed to push you really to 451 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: the limit and make you know yourself and give you 452 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: all these gifts. I mean, love in all of the 453 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: books and the films that you're in and and other 454 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: great movies does are in is like a soft skill, right, 455 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: But love is hard. It's the hardest thing we do. 456 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: It's the thing that matters most. That love is the 457 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: strongest medicine. It's the thing that heals us and holds 458 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: us together and gives our life meaning. And when we 459 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: look back at our lives, it's the people that we've 460 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: loved and loved us that matter most. But also it's 461 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: the hardest thing to sustain and allow ourselves to dare 462 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: to love and take the risks and the costs. And 463 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: it's build as a soft, easy thing, but it ain't. Yeah, 464 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot of like Hollywood and 465 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: music is where the way in which it is sold. 466 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: But it is rigorous. Love is rigorous and deeply painful. 467 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: But then so as being a human, you know, that 468 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: could also be descriptive of the fundament of being alive. 469 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: You know. I remember the first head book I ever read, 470 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: that's probably about twenty five, and there are lots of 471 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: catastrophic things going wrong. And the first line of M. 472 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: Scott Peck's book, A Roadless Traveled was life is difficult. 473 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: And I thought, hang on, no one ever told me that, 474 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: although it had been my entire life. But somehow it's 475 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: the secret that no one had said. It's normal that 476 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: it's difficult, not like I'm struggling through it and I'm 477 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: the one that's failing and everyone else has got it sorted. 478 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: Life's difficult, right, Okay? Boom God. I mean I wish, 479 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: first of all, I wish it was taught in schools 480 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: in like a robust and fluid way. I wish we 481 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: were taught about love. I wish we were taught about 482 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: death and were taught about these things as opposed to 483 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: sort of picking it up from God knows where, like 484 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: all these this little patchwork that I've used as a 485 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: map in my life was created by this little child 486 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: who had no idea about any of it, but piece 487 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: together what became pretty good. Man. Well, I mean, it's 488 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: a constitution that I'm now finding it quite difficult to amend, 489 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: even though I would really like to, like my ideas 490 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: about love, I'm now, you know, at fifty two, I'm 491 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: with this extraordinarily wonderful man, having been constantly in my life, 492 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: absolutely sort of brought to my knees by my relationships 493 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: with men, and in a way that I kept going, 494 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: why am I not learning? Like? Why is everything seemingly repetitive? 495 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm only now being able to 496 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: amend this constitution that I wrote when I was little 497 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: about what love is or what love is meant to 498 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: be because this person has this extraordinary spirit and patience 499 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: and also what he call it. He said, we have 500 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: a shared fortitude He's like, it's not me being patient 501 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: with you. It's that we have a shared fortitude and 502 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: I love that. But I'm only now figuring that out. 503 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: That's why I wish it was taught in schools, Like 504 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: why I wish these big things like love and death 505 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: and life were actually taught alongside physics and maths and history. 506 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: I think they should be taught or at least discussed, 507 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: you know, so that they're not this huge journey that 508 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: a child is expected to go on with no tools. 509 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: Because the tools that all children have they learned from 510 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: the adults around them, and that's the map that they're given. 511 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: Their kind of internal working model of love looks like this, 512 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: and moods look like this, and work looks like this. 513 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: You learn it from the people around you, the adults 514 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: around you. It's interesting when their tools have been my 515 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: mother and my father's tools bore you just get on 516 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: with it, which is a very very useful tool to have, 517 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: but it also has implicit in it, like not dealing 518 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: with stuff. Turn away, yeah, forget and move on, just 519 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: keep going, kick on. That's the English saying exactly. It's 520 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: very very British, it really is. It is a very 521 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: useful tool, but it needs to be augmented it and 522 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: kick on and name what's going on, experience that, express it. 523 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: Let the pain of it change you. Let pain is 524 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: the agent of change. Let the pain run through you, 525 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: and it's painful asitors, support yourself through it so that 526 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: you are expanded and grow through the pain, rather than 527 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: build your armor to block the pain in your life, Julia, 528 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: where and when were you happiest? It was not difficult 529 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: for me to choose this because I'm never happy in 530 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: those big kind of scale things like your birthday or 531 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: a big event. My happiest moments are those tiny moments 532 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: like I remember New Year looking around the done room 533 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: table and all my children were there, and they all 534 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: had a partner who loved them, and they had jobs, 535 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: and nobody had a problem, nobody had some awful thing 536 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: that was happening, and I just felt this it makes 537 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: me cry on me, so I felt this kind of 538 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: relief like and then of course, by two weeks later, 539 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: something terrible happened and you go off again. But those 540 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: moments of all of the people I love most in 541 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: the world are loved and they have kids and they 542 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: are happy is an amazing amazing moment. I love that 543 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: so much. I think about that so much as well, 544 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: of the lily padding, the leaping from the lily pad, 545 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: Like is it the respite is the anomaly? The happy 546 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: moments and the stress and the difficulty is what's normal? 547 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: Or is it the other way around? I look at 548 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: it that the happier moments are the moments that sustain 549 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: you when you go through the difficult moments. And sometimes 550 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: I look back at them when it's been difficult. Quite 551 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: soon after, I look back at them with a kind 552 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: of poignancy, like Oh. I wrote a book called This 553 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: Too Shall Pass, and at the beginning I said, you know, 554 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: we say bad things are going to pass, but we 555 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: have to remember things are going to pass too. It's 556 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: not just a one way street. Yes, but I as 557 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: I can feel the bad thing happening, I then have 558 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: It's like a photograph album the moments that have been 559 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: good or it's often simple, isn't it When they're simple 560 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: and it's not complicated, there's nothing big happening and they 561 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: sustain me, completely sustain me. Do you return to them 562 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: in moments of hardship? Do you consciously sit down and 563 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: remember something good? Remember sitting around the table with your children, 564 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: all of them peaceful and content, And does that put 565 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: a dent in the hard moments? Do you think in 566 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: the peak of the hard moment, so you've just been 567 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: told some bad news, it's too painful to look at 568 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: the happy one because it's too far from where I am. 569 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: But as the intensity lessons, then I can look back, 570 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: and that's what gives me hope. And the hope is 571 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: the alchemy that turns a life around, you know, believing 572 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: that I can have moments of that, and that I 573 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 1: will have moments that because I've already had them, and 574 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: I know from my job at myself that my belief 575 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: system is informed by my experience. And so my experience 576 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: is that we can have really good times when everything 577 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: is okay, they are quite rare, and we can have 578 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of life you know, normal times, and then there 579 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: are the kind of also hopefully rare, very bad times, 580 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: and knowing that we have all of those and seeing 581 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: it like that enables me to kind of normalize it 582 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: rather than well, I think you talk to me about this. 583 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: When you're in the weather. You never believe the weather 584 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: is going to change, and then it does. Yeh In 585 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: the moment when one wakes up every day and it's 586 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: maybe faced with the same set of circumstances that have 587 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: not yet changed. It's like they've just been there waiting 588 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: at the end of your bed while you sleep. And 589 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: if you know, you wake up and you've sat and breathed, 590 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: and you've maybe done a little meditation or you've read 591 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: something good, and yet still there they sit at the 592 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: end of your bed. Is there something that you do 593 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: or that you recommend to people that they do to 594 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: help engage with what's beyond that anxiety of circumstance to 595 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: what I do? And it's so unsexy. I love un sexy. 596 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: I want the flannel night dress of therapist. Thanks, I 597 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: don't want the lingerie. The eighteen year army who was 598 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: going forward did not see that I would be an 599 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: expert on grieving a psychotherapist. I kind of thought I'd 600 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: be sexy and fancy. But now, well, why I said 601 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: that was because I've had to work out for myself 602 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: and for other people what works, and what works is 603 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: not glamorous and sexy, but practical and the thing that 604 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: works the best. Because grief or anxiety, a loss, whether 605 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: it's a living loss from you know, bad news, your 606 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: boyfriend's broken up, that you've lost your job, or from death. 607 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: It hits your body and sends your body into hyper arizon. 608 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: So you're in kind of fourth gear. Your autonomic nervous 609 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: system goes on vigilant, vigilante almost it can be that 610 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: you own to attack. And the single thing that helps 611 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: you most is get outside and take some exercise moving, 612 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: even if you're in an urban environment. If you can 613 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: get to a part better so cycle, run, walk fast, 614 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: and even if you only do it for ten minutes, 615 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: you will always feel better when you walk back through 616 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: the door. If you can walk back through the door 617 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: and journal for like five minutes, do a breathing meditation 618 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: for five minutes, and then give yourself a stauntingly good breakfast, 619 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: you will feel much much better and be able to 620 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: face the kind of waves of adversity and loss and 621 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: whatever the feelings are as they are, sail your body. 622 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: That is so brilliant. It's what I wailed the loudest 623 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: is what can I do? I wail at my lovely boyfriend. 624 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: I want something actionable? What can I do? And that 625 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: makes so much sense, But for you it's the sea. Yeah, 626 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: it is you go surfing, but in London it's hard 627 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: because there is no sea. I've often been known to 628 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: run out of my house and up to the park 629 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: and done exactly what you said. Just go and sit 630 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: by the certain time and try and feel differently. Well, 631 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: your body feels differently. Difficult feelings sit in your body 632 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: and they're like looking for a place to go, and 633 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: they're kind of an alert waiting for the threat to 634 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: come at you. So if you actually move your body, 635 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: you tell your body you've flown, so you're throwing fight 636 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: or flight. You've tell your body you've flown, so your 637 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: cortisol levels drop and your oxytocin, your dopamine, your kind 638 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: of connecting levels where you can connect with yourself. Get 639 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: a hug from your boyfriend or anybody. I mean practically 640 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: a stranger will always work for you. It's so interesting. 641 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: I do love I love the practical physical response to 642 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: sort of encouraging a different way of feeling about something. 643 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: And like you said, you can't get from abject misery 644 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,479 Speaker 1: to joy. The jump is too big. But to take 645 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: small steps to put yourself physically, to tell your brain 646 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: that you're in a different place, to tell your body 647 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: are in a different place to then find your way 648 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: mentally to being in a different place. And then when 649 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: you're in a different place, your relationship with what's troubling 650 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: you has changed because you have the capacity to then 651 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: think more clearly, to collaborate with someone else, to have 652 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: a conversation with someone else, and their words, their warmth, 653 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: their love and support for you can sink in. When 654 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: you're like this hyper people, when they hug you, it's 655 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: like your brittle, it's like your armored. It never goes in, 656 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: And you basically want to punch their light site and 657 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: say because they're not fixing it. But when you've moved 658 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: and you've calmed down and you're kind of centered, and 659 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: you've given yourself a treat, I do think you know 660 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: good breakfast or whatever it is. Your treat helps you're 661 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: then open your expand your capacity to connect with other people. 662 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: And the single biggest thing for all of us, whatever 663 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: our difficulty, that will predict our outcome is the love 664 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: and connection of others. That we can't do life alone. However, 665 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: we connect with others. We need to be and be 666 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: close and connected to others. Oh, you're such a joy. 667 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's so wonderful talking to you. 668 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: It's such beautiful insights on the things that are just 669 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: the hardest, that are the most normal. Yeah. Well, it's 670 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: such a pleasure. It's really fun to Julia's new book 671 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: titled Every Family Has a Story, will be in stores 672 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: across America on November, and you can find her podcast, 673 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: Therapy Works wherever you listen to your podcasts. In Therapy Works, 674 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: you'll hear Julia's guests talk about the big lessons and 675 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: challenges of their lives. I was on the show, and 676 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: at the end of each episode, Julia reflects on her 677 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: session with her two psychotherapist daughters, who share their thoughts 678 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: on the conversation. I hope you enjoy listening to Julia's 679 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: show as much as I enjoyed being a guest on it. 680 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, 681 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: Supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Lavoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. 682 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: Original music Sorry Baby by Minni Driver, Additional music by 683 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman. Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks 684 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison, No Day, Lisa Castella, 685 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: and Nick Oppenheim at w kPr de La Pescador Kate 686 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: Driver and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support 687 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: Henry Driver