WEBVTT - Roman Mars: How Great Design Can Be 99% Invisible 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.520 One of the most important non political political books I've 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.400 read in the last decade or more is The Social 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.720 Conquest of Earth by the great biologist E. O. Wilson, 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.480 who passed away last year at the age of ninety two. 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.360 In it, Wilson argues that the most successful species that 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:26.560 have ever inhabited our planet are ants, termites, bees, and people, 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.760 because they, out of all those species that have ever existed, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.760 have been able to repeatedly avoid opportunities to destroy themselves 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.760 or be destroyed by others. And the one thing they 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.599 all have in common is that they all have very 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:49.520 high levels of cooperation. But of all species, Wilson says, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:54.720 humans are the greatest co operators because their consciousness enables 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.880 them to evolve in advance, and their conscience pulls them 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.800 back from off destructive behavior before it's too late. So 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.000 why am I telling you this? Because in an age 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.720 that seems so dominated by a conflict, it's important that 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.960 we step back and remind ourselves of our amazing capacity 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.880 to work together. There's perhaps no greater example of that 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.399 than the modern city. From the smallest details to the 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:27.200 large scale infrastructure, every piece of the city was thought about, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.679 design and built by someone to make one large living 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.240 thing we could all inhabit together. When it all works well, 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.759 it enables our society to work well too. My guest 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.640 today spends his career chronicling these bits of human ingenuity 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.960 that we so often take for granted, things like the 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.400 utility codes, the curb cuts, the traffic signals, and much more. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:59.040 Roman Mars is the host of The Invisible Podcast and 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:04.840 co author of The Invisible City. His work challenges all 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.280 of us to look up, look around, and think about 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.280 the how and the whua of design. Roman, thanks so 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.600 much for being here. Oh my pleasure, Miss President, Thank 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.680 you so much, and thanks for writing that book. It 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:23.280 was It's really really good. I had so much fun 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.120 with it. I appreciate it. My colleague Kirk Colestead and 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.760 I put it together as we were doing the show, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.400 and it was probably one of the hardest things that 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.920 we've ever done, but it was it was really gratifying 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.600 in the end. I appreciate you reading it. Was there 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.320 one specific thing that kind of got you started on 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.240 this whole idea of invisible and how you came to 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.240 focus on it. Well, I was in radio for a 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.960 long time. I just love the way explaining things on 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.440 the radio. I love the way people talk on you know, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.519 public radio in particular. And I also was as a 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.600 person who like went on architecture tours and so I 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.520 have no training. I was trained to be a scientist actually. 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.399 And there was one building there was the Chicago Architecture Foundation. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.200 UM has a boat tour in Chicago that talks about 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.120 the architecture. It's it's amazing, like I recommended to everybody. 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:14.960 I've been on it like five or six times, like 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.320 I really do love it. And they told this story 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.600 of the Montgomery Ward complex that's that's along the river, 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.720 and Montgomery Ward is, you know, kind of long gone 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.080 as a as a company, but there's this one the 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:34.320 headquarters building was this kind of generic UM rectangular modernist building, 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.120 but it had these four concrete post on the corner. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.520 And I had passed this building all the time. I'd 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.360 never cared much for it. And then the architecture the 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.560 curator on the on the boat, the docent said that, well, 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.960 the reason why that building is the way it is 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.400 is that the Montgomery Ward company sort of pride itself 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.160 on it's a galitarian hierarchy, and they wanted to build 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.600 their headquarters so that there were no vps fighting over 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.760 who got the corner office, and so they've made a 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.160 building with no possibility of a corner office at all. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.920 And I just love that story and made me love 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:12.880 this building that I thought was boring. It made no 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.760 impression on me, but then it made me love it. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.479 And then I realized, well, if you can tell a 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.400 story like that that's independent of the aesthetics and the 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.400 sort of like image of the building, then I could 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.000 tell stories about architecture on the radio. And that's where 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.520 I sort of got the idea that that we could 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.320 do this. All the thought that goes into things that 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.040 most people don't think about is really tantalizing to the brain. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.880 They go, oh, yeah, I guess I have always noticed that, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.200 and then it begins to build on something. And then 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.680 they begin to read plaques and they noticed the sidewalk 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.279 markings of like what the utility lines are underneath the street, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.240 And it makes the world just a little bit more 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.520 delightful once you begin to sort of key into those 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.040 those little markers. I want to talk a little bit 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.760 about radio as a medium, and then i'll come back 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:05.719 to what you said. But I remember in two after 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.720 I had lost in the Reagan landslide in and become 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.280 the youngest ex governor in the history of America. And 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.599 I was thinking about running again. And that's all the 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.720 polls show that I had a chance to win, but 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.159 we had never had a governor elected, defeated and elected again. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.200 And I read a book by a New York media 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:30.320 guy named Tony Schwartz. He had this theory that if 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:35.359 done well, radio would be more compelling than television because 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:40.000 it had more power over the imagination. Yeah, and I'll 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:41.960 never forget I talked to him. I bet for two 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.800 hours about it one night, and for the next several 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.800 years I invested a lot of time, money, and effort 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:55.560 in radio communications and trying to imagine what would trigger 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.160 an open mind. He also said, you know, if you 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.839 if somebody has been against you're on the other side 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.479 of something, it's harder for them to look at you 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.960 than it is to listen to you. So he said, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.200 you know, if somebody just kind of comes along, they 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.760 talked and the same halfway decent, you know, and you're 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.599 not losing face by listening, even if you've been calling 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.839 them names for years. I love that Tony Schwartz is 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.599 super fascinating as a human. I'm so like envious that 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.039 you got to meet him. I love the sound of 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.880 people's voices. I'm sort of hook line sinker, like for radio. 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.159 All the time there's people talk about having radio voices, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.880 and I love all voices. I love the tone of 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.600 people's voices. I love what it conveys. This is something 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.200 about storytelling in this way that has always sort of 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.240 made my brain light up. I don't know what it is. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:51.080 You've done all these episodes about things that we've all 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.360 seen but not seen, things that are obscure or at 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.320 least rare, like the only street light with green on 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:02.400 the top instead of the bottom, and so accuse. But 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.520 of all the things you've written about, and I again, 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.200 if for any of our listeners who have not listened 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:13.600 to your podcasts or read your book about the Invisible World, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.200 what are two or three of your favorite stories and sights, 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.760 things that you just were interested in and you got 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:25.280 involved in them, and it's surprised to what you learned. Well, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.800 one of the first things I did a story about 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.800 that I thought about a lot. We're actually municipal and 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.880 city and state flags. I really love flags. I really 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:42.160 love graphic design, and I worked in Chicago at a 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.960 radio station. They're called w b e Z. And when 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.120 you're in Chicago, all of a sudden, you notice that 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.200 there's the flag of Chicago because it is everywhere, and 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.400 if you really go to almost any other city, you 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.320 never see the flag of a city as much as 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.760 you see the city of Chicago flag. And and I 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.480 didn't even know cities had flags before I moved to Chicago. 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:05.840 And then I began to sort of look at them 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.800 and realized that like basically every city over fifty thou 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.600 people has a flag. They're just not really well designed 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.040 and they're kind of an afterthought and no one notices them. 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.800 And so I began to really like think about the 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:19.680 design of flags and what you can do with them. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.960 And and that was the one that really sort of 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.040 like kind of took off. I even did a Ted 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.360 talk about city flags um at a certain point and UM, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.760 and it was a really kind of crazy moment where 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.520 you know, TED conference starts, all these extremely important people 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:39.080 like yourself presenting, I'm about to do my little flag talk, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.160 and I felt so sort of silly, but it really 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.800 resonated with people because my contention was was that the 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.400 reason why Chicago's flag was was so used. It was 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.520 because it was so it was so beautiful and so 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:53.760 well done. And if people don't know it, it's it 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.640 has a white field, it has two horizontal blue stripes 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.599 and four six pointed red stars across the center. And 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.400 you will see it like on cops uniforms, you will 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.080 see it on municipal building but you also see it 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.520 on like punk rockers tattoos. Like everyone has claimed it. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.360 And it wasn't just that you know, people love Chicago 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.000 who lived there and therefore love the flag. I also 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.000 think that people loved Chicago more because the flag was 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.679 so cool and the power of that type of graphic 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:27.000 design to unify people, for like somebody who represented the 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.440 city to use it, for someone protesting the city to 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.280 use it. These municipal symbols that weren't owned by anyone, 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.560 that we're owned by all of us, was really like 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.360 inspiring to me. And so then UM, I think other 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.160 ones you know, like I think that you know that 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.440 one of the first stories I ever did was about 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.560 the Transamerica Perramid. I'm located in the Bay Area, I 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:52.520 um see it every day out my window. Um is 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:58.880 very striking. And one of the things that I had learned, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.679 which was kind of like the impetus for the whole show, 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.240 was that the local chapter of the American Institute of 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.480 Architects truly opposed this building when it was built. Like 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.160 they thought it was it was sort of a height 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.240 of modernism, so like the pyramid to make the pyramid shape, 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.760 the top two feet of the building is kind of 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.920 empty glass, like it has no real purpose, and modernism 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.960 is all about, you know, like unadorned like functional forms, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.120 like no no extra anything. And it was like offensive 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.400 to modernists that there would be this like two ft 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:33.720 of air that did nothing except for complete shape of 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.840 a pyramid. And they posed it and they talked im 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.080 poorly about it. But you know, like in the sort 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.319 of many decades since it become you know, this thing 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.199 that everyone loved and it's identified with with San Francisco, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.880 it wasn't so much like whether or not the building 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.240 was beautiful or ugly, or worked or didn't work, or 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.520 violated this principle whatever. What I'm interested in is what 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.040 are the values of the things that we build, and 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:00.760 what does it say about and how does it change 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.520 over time? The effective things it's the human activity that 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.320 centers around these objects that is really what the show 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.560 is about. In my interest, I've read an interesting fiction 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.400 actually about San Francisco more than a years ago and 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.160 about the earthquake and what happened during the earthquake, what 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.080 happened after the earthquake. Is there anything that stands out 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.839 to you about how after the earthquake building standards or 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.960 neighborhood organizations were changed in a way that made life 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:38.440 at least somewhat more secure. Yeah, I mean, you know, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.400 the founding and most cities can be pretty haphazard. You know, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.600 they begin people plot outland. There usually isn't a grand 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:50.200 design and grand plan, and then disasters like the Chicago 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.599 fire and the Nineteam of six earthquake give people a 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.160 chance to like really start with a plan now that 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.400 they've seen that the city is there and in his 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.319 robust and there's a need for it. You know, Sees 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.680 like Chicago and Paris who went through like really strong, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.600 sort of heavy handed design, have a certain style. And 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:15.640 what I think is interesting about cities is when you 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.200 have these moments of evolution and what we grab onto 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.240 and what we build off of them really reflects the 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.400 moment in time and then you sort of go from there. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.760 And when I was, I mean not not to sort 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.920 of equate these disasters necess early, but like I was 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.199 really struck. The book came out right when the beginning 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.000 of COVID shutdown started, and all of a sudden, this 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:46.240 sort of like ingenuity of like the built space like 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.480 sort of cropped up over night so that people could 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.920 still function. So they're like plexiglass like showed up in 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.400 front of you know, bodega cash registers and and like 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.480 little markings on the floor to tell us where to stand, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.600 and sidewalks became you know, play is for us to 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.000 sit and congregate when they used to just be the 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.640 domain or you know, even into the roads that used 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.120 to just be the domain of roads. Like no one 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.480 took away a road from anybody. But but like all 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.360 of a sudden, you could form a cafe and people 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.720 accepted that. And the thing that I love about thinking 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:22.160 about cities is that when you're in them, there's a 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.160 habit of thinking these this thing is the way it is. 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.920 It was this way when I was born into this 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.080 world and noticed it, and it's very hard to change. 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:37.000 But they've always been these evolving entities that reflected our values. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:43.960 And I like noticing that because I think that that's important. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.560 Two considering change in a place, Like if you don't 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.680 think a thing is fixed and it is a way 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.400 that it's supposed to be, then all of a sudden, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.560 the possibilities of what you can do with a road 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.720 opens up, because like roads started for like millennia, they 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.800 were like multipurpose, multimodal, like people walked across them, vendors 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.480 would sit on them, cars would be on them, horses 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.200 would be on them, trolley lines would be on them, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.160 and all of a sudden, for about a hundred years, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.120 we just gave away roads to just cars cards meant roads. 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.360 And then we went through this period of crisis with COVID, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:20.960 where all of a sudden we were like, well, maybe 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.320 a car is and the most important thing in this 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.080 spot right now, maybe a cafe sitting area is the 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.720 most important thing. And it kind of dislaunches us to 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:34.040 think about the possibilities that these built structures that seem 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.720 so permanent, so fixed, are really malleable reflections of our values, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.000 and they can always be re examined and they can 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.400 always have input, you know, and and change because of them, 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.920 and theose moments of crisis kind of shock us into 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.120 thinking of of how we can change something for the 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.480 better when for most of our lives, most of our existence, 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:03.040 these seems like completely attractable and placable, unchangeable forces because 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.200 they're hard physical surfaces, but they really can change. And 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.920 that's where I find inspiring about thinking about those moments 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.000 in our history and what we can make and do. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:24.920 We'll be right back. One of the things that interests 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.800 me is that shows the malleability of cities, but also 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.840 the importance of basic functions being modified and improved, is 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:38.440 how cities respond to things that they hadn't imagined happening. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.040 For example, Stephen Johnson's book The Ghost Map is about 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.400 the discovery of the real cause of the cholera outbreaking London, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.600 and it led to a total rework of you know, 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.480 how the water came to the city and how it 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.400 was purified. And one of the things that I was 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.720 hoping would come when I was going through your book 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.160 I was hope it would come out of is that 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.200 people would copy things that work that they hadn't thought 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:11.800 about and adapted to their own cultural tastes. And environment. Yeah, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.600 well it does happen. So there's like a the book 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.040 is sort of laid out, you know, where we sort 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.680 of get granular and then we get like bigger and 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.640 bigger views you know, from the world, and it ends 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.480 with this section on urbanism that is all about the 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.200 conversation between sort of top down forces who shaped the 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.880 world and bottom up forces that affect the city, and 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.440 that conversation that happens between you know, people who give 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.440 like urban interventions or design solutions like you mentioned, like 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.720 local ones, and then like I think of really like 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.840 mindful government or bigger entity like notices those things, takes 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.040 those ideas adapts them because there's certain types of things 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.600 that we have built our society on that only government 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:01.440 can do, you know, bridges and highways and those are 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.720 amazing things. I think I take sort of almost spiritual 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:07.560 solace in these things. Like I look at the Golden 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.159 gate Bridge and I just think it is the greatest 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.719 structure that was ever created, and it represents all these 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.200 people getting together to do a thing where a bunch 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.000 of people recognized, you know, it would be really good 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.000 for all these people over here to be able to 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.159 get to this side over here and then we're going 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.680 to spend you know, like ten years making that happen 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.680 and also create something like gorgeous in the process, and 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:32.159 that collective enterprise his government, and it's meaningful to me. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:38.080 But there are things that are great to do in 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.840 a place in a moment, solve a problem, affect a 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:46.240 change that is just as sort of inspiring and powerful, 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.320 and I love those things. I mean, some of them 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.280 are like you know, they can be interventions. Like there 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.760 was a sort of a prankster basically like who noticed 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.280 on he drove in l A. He knows all he's 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.920 missed an exit on the five because it wasn't labeled properly, 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:10.200 and so like he literally made a fake highway sign, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.000 went up at six am with his friends, made it 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:18.359 as real as possible, bolted it up, and it had 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.800 this sign that was there to like mark an exit 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.439 that he thought was undermarked so he would always miss it. 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.440 And it was so convincing that it stayed up for 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.399 like a decade because nobody noticed it was a fake, 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.639 you know, and it was this like I do not 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.919 recommend anyone doing this. It was super dangerous. But the 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.199 point is is, like there's always these little moments to 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.560 improve and do something to make the world better that 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.479 are worth sort of working on. And they don't have 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.080 to be something like the Golden gate Bridge. They don't 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.760 have to be an entire sewer system that requires buy 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.760 in from every community down the line and you know, 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.119 hundreds of millions of dollars, like you really can't affect 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.680 change in these smaller areas to just make a little 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.679 bit better, like little pocket parks, little like you know, 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.359 seed bombs or something that that people like take in 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.679 an empty lot. They'll take flowering plants and just like 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.960 throw them in and just like make something that's what 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.040 makes the city. First. I agree with that. I got 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:19.680 several things I want to ask you, but I would 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.760 like to start with design and native public safety. The 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.639 very first specific example I believe in your book If 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.440 my Memory services about steel poles that are really two 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.680 poles where you you have to build something that will 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.320 either hold the building up or hold a sign up 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.680 or hold of whatever up, and you have to dig 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.920 down deep, so you have to have a long story 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:52.640 pole to hold the weight. But instead safety designers actually 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.480 made them double poles, and they bolted them together somewhere 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:02.320 near ground level with screws that guaranteed or both enough 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.320 flexibility so that if a car ran into them or 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.240 something else hard hit them, they would actually break. Yeah, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.360 so how did that come about? How did engineers think 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.320 about that? How many people had to die before they 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.760 figured it out? Well, I'm sure weigh too many. But 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.359 you know, breakaway posts. You're talking about a poll that 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.359 is an environment like right next to where cars are 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.119 speeding past. I mean, it has to do two different 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.200 jobs simultaneously. It has to be robust enough to hold 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.879 up this heavy thing that is the sign or or 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.320 the wires, and it has to just do the complete 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.800 opposite thing, like it has to completely try to get 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.720 out of the way as fast and as easily as 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.280 possible if somebody runs into it. So, yeah, you're right. 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.360 They have these connector plates and breakaway bolts. Sometimes even 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.600 those connector plates are angled so that if you hit 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:53.840 them at the right angle, not only does the poll 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.679 like fall over, it kind of like vaults over the 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:02.280 vehicle and doesn't hit it at all. And then you know, 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.439 like if you need to replace it, the base post 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.960 is still there, it hasn't been damaged. You just bolt 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.080 on a new one and then you also have that 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.000 aspect of safety, like you can return to normal faster. 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.720 I do not know how many people had to run 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.159 into a post for this to change, or all the 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:19.840 people that were involved. I mean, I'm sure that there 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.800 were hundreds of different engineers involved, but they're like it 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:28.000 is one of those invisible design elements that is that 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.680 you would never notice, like unless you're really paying attention 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.600 to post and you notice the throw breakaway plate. It 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.840 is not there to be honored or paid attention to. 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:41.040 It is actually not even there to be used. Hopefully, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.439 it is there just in case to make the world 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.479 a little bit better place, a little bit safer placed. 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.840 And what what I like to do in the show 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:57.320 and in the book is have people notice those things 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:04.480 so that they are aware of all the design decisions 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.159 that are made around them to make their life a 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.199 little bit better, because it is really easy to not 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.560 see these things and really think that you're on your 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.400 own in the world. But you're not. You know, there's 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.000 a bunch of people that thought about a problem that 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.600 you've never even thought about and solved it before you 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:25.960 even had to encounter it. And it makes the world 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:32.000 more clearly reflect that we are like interconnected group of 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.520 people that are trying to create a place where we 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.399 can all live and thrive. And those breakaway bolts are 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.360 a great example of this. Like most people never notice them, 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:44.359 most people never encounter them. They are everywhere, and they're 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.560 just they're just in case so that you're safer, that 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.000 you are more important than this sign is. And I 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.119 love those examples. I find those examples like super inspiring. 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:56.200 And those design solutions are everywhere if you just know 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.879 how to look for them. It's fascinating. I was gonna 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.600 ask you about another sort of related thing to me. 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.639 To me, it's related, and that's how design happens in 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:12.200 the first place, and why some people and some societies 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.880 thought about things that others didn't, even if they had 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.600 common levels of income and capacity. About half my lifetime ago, 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.000 I don't know, thirty five fourty years ago, a woman 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.879 that I knew well when we were very young, and 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.600