1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: One of the most important non political political books I've 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: read in the last decade or more is The Social 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Conquest of Earth by the great biologist E. O. Wilson, 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: who passed away last year at the age of ninety two. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: In it, Wilson argues that the most successful species that 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: have ever inhabited our planet are ants, termites, bees, and people, 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: because they, out of all those species that have ever existed, 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: have been able to repeatedly avoid opportunities to destroy themselves 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: or be destroyed by others. And the one thing they 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: all have in common is that they all have very 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: high levels of cooperation. But of all species, Wilson says, 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: humans are the greatest co operators because their consciousness enables 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: them to evolve in advance, and their conscience pulls them 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: back from off destructive behavior before it's too late. So 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: why am I telling you this? Because in an age 16 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: that seems so dominated by a conflict, it's important that 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: we step back and remind ourselves of our amazing capacity 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: to work together. There's perhaps no greater example of that 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: than the modern city. From the smallest details to the 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: large scale infrastructure, every piece of the city was thought about, 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: design and built by someone to make one large living 22 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: thing we could all inhabit together. When it all works well, 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: it enables our society to work well too. My guest 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: today spends his career chronicling these bits of human ingenuity 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: that we so often take for granted, things like the 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: utility codes, the curb cuts, the traffic signals, and much more. 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: Roman Mars is the host of The Invisible Podcast and 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: co author of The Invisible City. His work challenges all 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: of us to look up, look around, and think about 30 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: the how and the whua of design. Roman, thanks so 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: much for being here. Oh my pleasure, Miss President, Thank 32 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: you so much, and thanks for writing that book. It 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: was It's really really good. I had so much fun 34 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: with it. I appreciate it. My colleague Kirk Colestead and 35 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: I put it together as we were doing the show, 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: and it was probably one of the hardest things that 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: we've ever done, but it was it was really gratifying 38 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: in the end. I appreciate you reading it. Was there 39 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: one specific thing that kind of got you started on 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: this whole idea of invisible and how you came to 41 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: focus on it. Well, I was in radio for a 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: long time. I just love the way explaining things on 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: the radio. I love the way people talk on you know, 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: public radio in particular. And I also was as a 45 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: person who like went on architecture tours and so I 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: have no training. I was trained to be a scientist actually. 47 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: And there was one building there was the Chicago Architecture Foundation. 48 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: UM has a boat tour in Chicago that talks about 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: the architecture. It's it's amazing, like I recommended to everybody. 50 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: I've been on it like five or six times, like 51 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: I really do love it. And they told this story 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: of the Montgomery Ward complex that's that's along the river, 53 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: and Montgomery Ward is, you know, kind of long gone 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: as a as a company, but there's this one the 55 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: headquarters building was this kind of generic UM rectangular modernist building, 56 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: but it had these four concrete post on the corner. 57 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: And I had passed this building all the time. I'd 58 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: never cared much for it. And then the architecture the 59 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: curator on the on the boat, the docent said that, well, 60 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: the reason why that building is the way it is 61 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: is that the Montgomery Ward company sort of pride itself 62 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: on it's a galitarian hierarchy, and they wanted to build 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: their headquarters so that there were no vps fighting over 64 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: who got the corner office, and so they've made a 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: building with no possibility of a corner office at all. 66 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: And I just love that story and made me love 67 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: this building that I thought was boring. It made no 68 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: impression on me, but then it made me love it. 69 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: And then I realized, well, if you can tell a 70 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: story like that that's independent of the aesthetics and the 71 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: sort of like image of the building, then I could 72 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: tell stories about architecture on the radio. And that's where 73 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: I sort of got the idea that that we could 74 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: do this. All the thought that goes into things that 75 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: most people don't think about is really tantalizing to the brain. 76 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: They go, oh, yeah, I guess I have always noticed that, 77 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: and then it begins to build on something. And then 78 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: they begin to read plaques and they noticed the sidewalk 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: markings of like what the utility lines are underneath the street, 80 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: And it makes the world just a little bit more 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: delightful once you begin to sort of key into those 82 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: those little markers. I want to talk a little bit 83 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: about radio as a medium, and then i'll come back 84 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: to what you said. But I remember in two after 85 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: I had lost in the Reagan landslide in and become 86 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: the youngest ex governor in the history of America. And 87 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: I was thinking about running again. And that's all the 88 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: polls show that I had a chance to win, but 89 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: we had never had a governor elected, defeated and elected again. 90 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: And I read a book by a New York media 91 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: guy named Tony Schwartz. He had this theory that if 92 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: done well, radio would be more compelling than television because 93 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: it had more power over the imagination. Yeah, and I'll 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: never forget I talked to him. I bet for two 95 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: hours about it one night, and for the next several 96 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: years I invested a lot of time, money, and effort 97 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: in radio communications and trying to imagine what would trigger 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: an open mind. He also said, you know, if you 99 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: if somebody has been against you're on the other side 100 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: of something, it's harder for them to look at you 101 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: than it is to listen to you. So he said, 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, if somebody just kind of comes along, they 103 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: talked and the same halfway decent, you know, and you're 104 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: not losing face by listening, even if you've been calling 105 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: them names for years. I love that Tony Schwartz is 106 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: super fascinating as a human. I'm so like envious that 107 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: you got to meet him. I love the sound of 108 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: people's voices. I'm sort of hook line sinker, like for radio. 109 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: All the time there's people talk about having radio voices, 110 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: and I love all voices. I love the tone of 111 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: people's voices. I love what it conveys. This is something 112 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: about storytelling in this way that has always sort of 113 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: made my brain light up. I don't know what it is. 114 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: You've done all these episodes about things that we've all 115 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: seen but not seen, things that are obscure or at 116 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: least rare, like the only street light with green on 117 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: the top instead of the bottom, and so accuse. But 118 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: of all the things you've written about, and I again, 119 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: if for any of our listeners who have not listened 120 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: to your podcasts or read your book about the Invisible World, 121 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: what are two or three of your favorite stories and sights, 122 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: things that you just were interested in and you got 123 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: involved in them, and it's surprised to what you learned. Well, 124 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: one of the first things I did a story about 125 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: that I thought about a lot. We're actually municipal and 126 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: city and state flags. I really love flags. I really 127 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: love graphic design, and I worked in Chicago at a 128 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: radio station. They're called w b e Z. And when 129 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: you're in Chicago, all of a sudden, you notice that 130 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: there's the flag of Chicago because it is everywhere, and 131 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: if you really go to almost any other city, you 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: never see the flag of a city as much as 133 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: you see the city of Chicago flag. And and I 134 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: didn't even know cities had flags before I moved to Chicago. 135 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: And then I began to sort of look at them 136 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: and realized that like basically every city over fifty thou 137 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: people has a flag. They're just not really well designed 138 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: and they're kind of an afterthought and no one notices them. 139 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: And so I began to really like think about the 140 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: design of flags and what you can do with them. 141 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: And and that was the one that really sort of 142 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: like kind of took off. I even did a Ted 143 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: talk about city flags um at a certain point and UM, 144 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: and it was a really kind of crazy moment where 145 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, TED conference starts, all these extremely important people 146 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: like yourself presenting, I'm about to do my little flag talk, 147 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: and I felt so sort of silly, but it really 148 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: resonated with people because my contention was was that the 149 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: reason why Chicago's flag was was so used. It was 150 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: because it was so it was so beautiful and so 151 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: well done. And if people don't know it, it's it 152 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: has a white field, it has two horizontal blue stripes 153 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: and four six pointed red stars across the center. And 154 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: you will see it like on cops uniforms, you will 155 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: see it on municipal building but you also see it 156 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: on like punk rockers tattoos. Like everyone has claimed it. 157 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just that you know, people love Chicago 158 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: who lived there and therefore love the flag. I also 159 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: think that people loved Chicago more because the flag was 160 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: so cool and the power of that type of graphic 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: design to unify people, for like somebody who represented the 162 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: city to use it, for someone protesting the city to 163 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: use it. These municipal symbols that weren't owned by anyone, 164 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: that we're owned by all of us, was really like 165 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: inspiring to me. And so then UM, I think other 166 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: ones you know, like I think that you know that 167 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: one of the first stories I ever did was about 168 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: the Transamerica Perramid. I'm located in the Bay Area, I 169 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: um see it every day out my window. Um is 170 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: very striking. And one of the things that I had learned, 171 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: which was kind of like the impetus for the whole show, 172 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: was that the local chapter of the American Institute of 173 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: Architects truly opposed this building when it was built. Like 174 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: they thought it was it was sort of a height 175 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: of modernism, so like the pyramid to make the pyramid shape, 176 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: the top two feet of the building is kind of 177 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: empty glass, like it has no real purpose, and modernism 178 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: is all about, you know, like unadorned like functional forms, 179 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: like no no extra anything. And it was like offensive 180 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: to modernists that there would be this like two ft 181 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: of air that did nothing except for complete shape of 182 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: a pyramid. And they posed it and they talked im 183 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: poorly about it. But you know, like in the sort 184 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: of many decades since it become you know, this thing 185 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: that everyone loved and it's identified with with San Francisco, 186 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't so much like whether or not the building 187 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: was beautiful or ugly, or worked or didn't work, or 188 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: violated this principle whatever. What I'm interested in is what 189 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: are the values of the things that we build, and 190 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: what does it say about and how does it change 191 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: over time? The effective things it's the human activity that 192 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: centers around these objects that is really what the show 193 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: is about. In my interest, I've read an interesting fiction 194 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: actually about San Francisco more than a years ago and 195 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: about the earthquake and what happened during the earthquake, what 196 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: happened after the earthquake. Is there anything that stands out 197 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: to you about how after the earthquake building standards or 198 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood organizations were changed in a way that made life 199 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: at least somewhat more secure. Yeah, I mean, you know, 200 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: the founding and most cities can be pretty haphazard. You know, 201 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: they begin people plot outland. There usually isn't a grand 202 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: design and grand plan, and then disasters like the Chicago 203 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 1: fire and the Nineteam of six earthquake give people a 204 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: chance to like really start with a plan now that 205 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: they've seen that the city is there and in his 206 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: robust and there's a need for it. You know, Sees 207 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: like Chicago and Paris who went through like really strong, 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: sort of heavy handed design, have a certain style. And 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: what I think is interesting about cities is when you 210 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: have these moments of evolution and what we grab onto 211 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: and what we build off of them really reflects the 212 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: moment in time and then you sort of go from there. 213 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: And when I was, I mean not not to sort 214 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: of equate these disasters necess early, but like I was 215 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: really struck. The book came out right when the beginning 216 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: of COVID shutdown started, and all of a sudden, this 217 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: sort of like ingenuity of like the built space like 218 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: sort of cropped up over night so that people could 219 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: still function. So they're like plexiglass like showed up in 220 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: front of you know, bodega cash registers and and like 221 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: little markings on the floor to tell us where to stand, 222 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: and sidewalks became you know, play is for us to 223 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: sit and congregate when they used to just be the 224 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: domain or you know, even into the roads that used 225 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: to just be the domain of roads. Like no one 226 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: took away a road from anybody. But but like all 227 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you could form a cafe and people 228 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: accepted that. And the thing that I love about thinking 229 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: about cities is that when you're in them, there's a 230 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: habit of thinking these this thing is the way it is. 231 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: It was this way when I was born into this 232 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: world and noticed it, and it's very hard to change. 233 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: But they've always been these evolving entities that reflected our values. 234 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: And I like noticing that because I think that that's important. 235 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: Two considering change in a place, Like if you don't 236 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: think a thing is fixed and it is a way 237 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: that it's supposed to be, then all of a sudden, 238 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: the possibilities of what you can do with a road 239 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: opens up, because like roads started for like millennia, they 240 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: were like multipurpose, multimodal, like people walked across them, vendors 241 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: would sit on them, cars would be on them, horses 242 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: would be on them, trolley lines would be on them, 243 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, for about a hundred years, 244 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: we just gave away roads to just cars cards meant roads. 245 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: And then we went through this period of crisis with COVID, 246 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: where all of a sudden we were like, well, maybe 247 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: a car is and the most important thing in this 248 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: spot right now, maybe a cafe sitting area is the 249 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: most important thing. And it kind of dislaunches us to 250 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: think about the possibilities that these built structures that seem 251 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: so permanent, so fixed, are really malleable reflections of our values, 252 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: and they can always be re examined and they can 253 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: always have input, you know, and and change because of them, 254 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: and theose moments of crisis kind of shock us into 255 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: thinking of of how we can change something for the 256 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: better when for most of our lives, most of our existence, 257 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: these seems like completely attractable and placable, unchangeable forces because 258 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: they're hard physical surfaces, but they really can change. And 259 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: that's where I find inspiring about thinking about those moments 260 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: in our history and what we can make and do. 261 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. One of the things that interests 262 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: me is that shows the malleability of cities, but also 263 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: the importance of basic functions being modified and improved, is 264 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: how cities respond to things that they hadn't imagined happening. 265 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: For example, Stephen Johnson's book The Ghost Map is about 266 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: the discovery of the real cause of the cholera outbreaking London, 267 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: and it led to a total rework of you know, 268 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: how the water came to the city and how it 269 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: was purified. And one of the things that I was 270 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: hoping would come when I was going through your book 271 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: I was hope it would come out of is that 272 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: people would copy things that work that they hadn't thought 273 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: about and adapted to their own cultural tastes. And environment. Yeah, 274 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: well it does happen. So there's like a the book 275 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: is sort of laid out, you know, where we sort 276 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: of get granular and then we get like bigger and 277 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: bigger views you know, from the world, and it ends 278 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: with this section on urbanism that is all about the 279 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: conversation between sort of top down forces who shaped the 280 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: world and bottom up forces that affect the city, and 281 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: that conversation that happens between you know, people who give 282 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: like urban interventions or design solutions like you mentioned, like 283 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: local ones, and then like I think of really like 284 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: mindful government or bigger entity like notices those things, takes 285 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: those ideas adapts them because there's certain types of things 286 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: that we have built our society on that only government 287 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: can do, you know, bridges and highways and those are 288 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: amazing things. I think I take sort of almost spiritual 289 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: solace in these things. Like I look at the Golden 290 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: gate Bridge and I just think it is the greatest 291 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: structure that was ever created, and it represents all these 292 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: people getting together to do a thing where a bunch 293 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: of people recognized, you know, it would be really good 294 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: for all these people over here to be able to 295 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: get to this side over here and then we're going 296 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: to spend you know, like ten years making that happen 297 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: and also create something like gorgeous in the process, and 298 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: that collective enterprise his government, and it's meaningful to me. 299 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: But there are things that are great to do in 300 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: a place in a moment, solve a problem, affect a 301 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: change that is just as sort of inspiring and powerful, 302 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: and I love those things. I mean, some of them 303 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: are like you know, they can be interventions. Like there 304 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: was a sort of a prankster basically like who noticed 305 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: on he drove in l A. He knows all he's 306 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: missed an exit on the five because it wasn't labeled properly, 307 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: and so like he literally made a fake highway sign, 308 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: went up at six am with his friends, made it 309 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: as real as possible, bolted it up, and it had 310 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: this sign that was there to like mark an exit 311 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: that he thought was undermarked so he would always miss it. 312 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: And it was so convincing that it stayed up for 313 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: like a decade because nobody noticed it was a fake, 314 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: you know, and it was this like I do not 315 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: recommend anyone doing this. It was super dangerous. But the 316 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: point is is, like there's always these little moments to 317 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: improve and do something to make the world better that 318 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: are worth sort of working on. And they don't have 319 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: to be something like the Golden gate Bridge. They don't 320 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: have to be an entire sewer system that requires buy 321 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: in from every community down the line and you know, 322 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars, like you really can't affect 323 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: change in these smaller areas to just make a little 324 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: bit better, like little pocket parks, little like you know, 325 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: seed bombs or something that that people like take in 326 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: an empty lot. They'll take flowering plants and just like 327 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: throw them in and just like make something that's what 328 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: makes the city. First. I agree with that. I got 329 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: several things I want to ask you, but I would 330 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: like to start with design and native public safety. The 331 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: very first specific example I believe in your book If 332 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: my Memory services about steel poles that are really two 333 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: poles where you you have to build something that will 334 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: either hold the building up or hold a sign up 335 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: or hold of whatever up, and you have to dig 336 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: down deep, so you have to have a long story 337 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: pole to hold the weight. But instead safety designers actually 338 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: made them double poles, and they bolted them together somewhere 339 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: near ground level with screws that guaranteed or both enough 340 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: flexibility so that if a car ran into them or 341 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: something else hard hit them, they would actually break. Yeah, 342 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: so how did that come about? How did engineers think 343 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: about that? How many people had to die before they 344 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: figured it out? Well, I'm sure weigh too many. But 345 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: you know, breakaway posts. You're talking about a poll that 346 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: is an environment like right next to where cars are 347 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: speeding past. I mean, it has to do two different 348 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: jobs simultaneously. It has to be robust enough to hold 349 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: up this heavy thing that is the sign or or 350 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: the wires, and it has to just do the complete 351 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: opposite thing, like it has to completely try to get 352 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: out of the way as fast and as easily as 353 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: possible if somebody runs into it. So, yeah, you're right. 354 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: They have these connector plates and breakaway bolts. Sometimes even 355 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: those connector plates are angled so that if you hit 356 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: them at the right angle, not only does the poll 357 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: like fall over, it kind of like vaults over the 358 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: vehicle and doesn't hit it at all. And then you know, 359 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: like if you need to replace it, the base post 360 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: is still there, it hasn't been damaged. You just bolt 361 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: on a new one and then you also have that 362 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: aspect of safety, like you can return to normal faster. 363 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: I do not know how many people had to run 364 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: into a post for this to change, or all the 365 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: people that were involved. I mean, I'm sure that there 366 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: were hundreds of different engineers involved, but they're like it 367 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: is one of those invisible design elements that is that 368 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: you would never notice, like unless you're really paying attention 369 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: to post and you notice the throw breakaway plate. It 370 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: is not there to be honored or paid attention to. 371 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: It is actually not even there to be used. Hopefully, 372 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: it is there just in case to make the world 373 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,479 Speaker 1: a little bit better place, a little bit safer placed. 374 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: And what what I like to do in the show 375 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: and in the book is have people notice those things 376 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: so that they are aware of all the design decisions 377 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: that are made around them to make their life a 378 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: little bit better, because it is really easy to not 379 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: see these things and really think that you're on your 380 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: own in the world. But you're not. You know, there's 381 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of people that thought about a problem that 382 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: you've never even thought about and solved it before you 383 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: even had to encounter it. And it makes the world 384 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: more clearly reflect that we are like interconnected group of 385 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: people that are trying to create a place where we 386 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: can all live and thrive. And those breakaway bolts are 387 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: a great example of this. Like most people never notice them, 388 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: most people never encounter them. They are everywhere, and they're 389 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: just they're just in case so that you're safer, that 390 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: you are more important than this sign is. And I 391 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: love those examples. I find those examples like super inspiring. 392 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: And those design solutions are everywhere if you just know 393 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: how to look for them. It's fascinating. I was gonna 394 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: ask you about another sort of related thing to me. 395 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: To me, it's related, and that's how design happens in 396 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: the first place, and why some people and some societies 397 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: thought about things that others didn't, even if they had 398 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: common levels of income and capacity. About half my lifetime ago, 399 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, thirty five fourty years ago, a woman 400 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: that I knew well when we were very young, and 401 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: she came from a town even smaller than Hope, Arkansas 402 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: and my native state. I went to New York, became 403 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: interested in um, you know, the origins of humanity, and 404 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: went to Africa to study with the Lakies with Richard 405 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: Lakey Any she wrote a book called The Hominid Game, 406 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: and then it was about all the people that were 407 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: digging up our ancestors history, and she got very interested 408 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: in the design of prehistoric civilizations. So she did another 409 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: book which I went back while I was getting ready 410 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: for this, and I looked at it again I had 411 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: looked at it in so many years, called The Sand 412 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: Dollar and the Sladder Rule. Her name was Delta Willis, 413 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: and this book is about how patterns of nature are 414 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: reflected in human construction m and have always been. So 415 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: I thought I would ask you about that. How much 416 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: do you believe in general that a lot of the 417 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: things we do basically evolved from what we perceived to 418 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: be happening in nature. Well, I don't know I have 419 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: a good answer for this. Maybe it's a stupid question. No, 420 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a stupid question at all. It's 421 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: just sort of it's like hard to answer because I'm 422 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: sure you know that through stew of things that gives 423 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: us thought and solutions has to be what's around us, 424 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 1: you know, um, nothing sort of like spontaneously generates. And 425 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: so what I find kind of inspiring about humanity is 426 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: when we go beyond our empirical senses to study and evolve. 427 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: I think that when we when we're looking for ideas, 428 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: you should always look for nature to like how it 429 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: was solved, how it was solved well, and and try 430 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: to harness it and then go crazy on like everything 431 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 1: else that you could possibly do that has nothing to 432 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: do with with nature. But I do find it like 433 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that but that's most inspiring. And 434 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: I find that a lot of good design is the cyclical, 435 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: non extractive part of nature, the sustainable you know, like 436 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: that's what we mean by sustainable. It's like kind of 437 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: behaves like the Earth is like sustainable, and that that 438 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: I hope people always stick to when it comes to 439 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: like designing things. They should mimic an ecosystem, and ecosystem 440 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: is a really perfectly balanced thing. In cities who that 441 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: work well function as ecosystems. I mean they have to 442 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: have these tall, like firm, big structures that sort of 443 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 1: form the basis of things, you know, so that we 444 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: can gather in big places and they have anchors so 445 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: they and then we have like slightly more ephemeral bits 446 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: of architecture that serve our needs for periods of time. 447 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: When a mode of transportation is in fashion and then 448 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: changes those have to be more flexible, have to be 449 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: torn down. But those bones are really important, you know, 450 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: Like when I think about a city I love. I 451 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: love Pittsburgh as as a city. I mean, one of 452 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: the things that sustained it as a place was that 453 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, Carnegie like built all these palaces two things, 454 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: and when the city was gutted because of the decline 455 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: in the steel industry, those things were still there. Those 456 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: civic institution were still there, so that art could come 457 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: in and technology could come in. But those bones were 458 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: there that were like the trees in a forest, and 459 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: that sort of conceiving of the built environment as a 460 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: complex ecosystem and mimicing nature in these ways, it really 461 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: behooves us because it makes it more resilient for when 462 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: there is change. But you have to think of the 463 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: long game when you're creating these things, and so I 464 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: think there's tons of inspiration to come from nature and 465 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: openness and the sort of like the way that all 466 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: these different pieces interact, and highly designed systems sometimes can 467 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: be super efficient, but when they're you know, when there's 468 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: a flaw, there's a real problem. Like one of the 469 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: one of my examples is like, you know, like an iPhone, 470 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: is this a marvelous thing that I love. I love 471 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: to use it, I love to mess with it. Is 472 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: the way I play most music or listen to people's voices. 473 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: But when that thing doesn't work, it's called breaking. It's bricks. 474 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: There's no way into it, there's nothing to do with it. 475 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: You have to take it to someone to fix it. 476 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: Like I grew up listening, there was a real to 477 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: real in my household. If something broke on that real 478 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: to real, you have a little bit of a chance 479 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: to do something about it. It is like open designed. 480 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: It is like allows you to do stuff to it. 481 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: And I like those open systems, and and nature is 482 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: more mimics those open systems. The same thing is true 483 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 1: of your car, you know, yeah, exactly. I grew up 484 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: in the in the our business. Indirectly. My stepfather had 485 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: a little Buig dealership in the town of where I 486 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: was born, which had six thousand people. And uh, I 487 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: remember there was a fire in a dealership of Henry J. 488 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: Kaiser's old Kaisers about thirty miles away, and he took 489 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, six or seven of them and had 490 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: him repaired him as best he could in his own 491 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: garage with his mechanics, and the prize was we got 492 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: to keep one of the Henry Jay's all cut down 493 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: and hollowed out. But I drove it in high school 494 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: and it had it had hydraulic breaks, so whenever there 495 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: was the slightest gash in the air tube, they maintained 496 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: the pressure. I'd had to go down shifted in the 497 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: first degree and run up the first gear and run 498 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: up on the curb. But the point is, you know, 499 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: I felt one with that car because I felt like 500 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: I could fix it. Just like if I had to 501 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: change the all myself, I could do that. If I 502 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: had to change the tire, I could do that. I 503 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: could figure out how to make the engine work again. 504 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: And I think that, I think for all the wonders 505 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: of technology, I wish we wouldn't be taken so far 506 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: from being able to do things with our own two 507 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: hands in mind, because I think it, at least for me, 508 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: it made me more aware of the design of the car, 509 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: the internal desire, the mechanics, and you know, I think 510 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: about that. But the point is, I think that when 511 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: I read your book, I kept thinking about you know, 512 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: we Americans and maybe people all over the world, and 513 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: maybe because of the social media or polarization or whatever, 514 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: are losing the ability to think large and small. Yeah, 515 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, we just want to give us something we 516 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: can to jest in six seconds or eight and say 517 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: we think this that. The other thing and the beauty 518 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: of your book to me was you had these apparently 519 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: small things that made a big difference because they were 520 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: part of a whole that would be visible if we 521 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: were looking. That's right. So what what have you concluded 522 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: about that are as a species? Are we losing the 523 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: predisposition to look to be aware? Well, I mean I 524 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: think that not being aware of all things all the 525 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: time is it a brain coping mechanism? We have like 526 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: eleven million stimuli like coming at us at all time. 527 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: So the things that don't change, we don't notice them. 528 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: It's forgivable, you know what I mean, Like our brains 529 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: are meant to filter some of that stuff out. We're 530 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: to the change, you know, and so there's no problem 531 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: with people not noticing things. I do think that what 532 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: I like about you know, these examples of ants and 533 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: us and why we're resilient is because there are those 534 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: people and things and entities that do think long term 535 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: that solve problems that are they're not really just altruistic. 536 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: They're not just doing it completely selflessly. We're trying to 537 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: create this thing together and it requires thought and design 538 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: and differentiation. Like as much as I like the idea 539 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: of you fixing your own break, you know, when you 540 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: were a kid in your car, it kind of was like, 541 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: there's also a beauty in other people doing it better, 542 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: and you just kind of like trusting in that, and 543 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: that it becomes like how we build a society, and 544 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: so the world is made up of It has to 545 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: be an ecosystem of things we know in control and 546 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: and there's like individual like agency and liberty and things 547 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: like this, and then you have to like fall into 548 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: the warm embrace of a designed world that people have 549 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: thought of and their expertise is present and maybe you 550 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: don't understand it, and hopefully we're engaged enough in a 551 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: civic society that you trust those things. And I think 552 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: that that's super inspiring. Like I love the things that 553 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: we create together collectively, and cities are inspiring, Like machines 554 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: that are just they're super efficient. They you know, like 555 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: if we're talking about your own like carbon footprint. Living 556 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: in a city is better living on your own in 557 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: these ways. And there's all these things that I think 558 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: that if you take the time to notice the small 559 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: details of how your life is made better by somebody 560 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,239 Speaker 1: thinking through a problem you probably don't even you know, 561 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: know you need to have solved. But also just like 562 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: then go just look at the Brooklyn Bridge, you know, 563 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: I can just go like wow, that thing is amazing. 564 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean, like when so like in the eighty nine 565 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: grade out here in the Bay Area, part of the 566 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: Bay Bridge collapsed and then they they rebuilt the Eastern 567 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: Span and it was about to open when I when 568 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: I lived here, I didn't live here during the eighty nine, 569 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: but I lived here after. So when the new span 570 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: was opening up, they were going to have a big 571 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: day kind of like when the opening Brooklyn Bridge, but 572 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: people gonna walk across it, you know, like celebrate it. 573 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,239 Speaker 1: And there was all these sort of problems they need 574 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: to fix with the Eastern Span, and so they didn't 575 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: have that day where everyone walks across the bitch. And 576 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: I just think that was a huge like missed opportunity 577 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: of this like collective like enjoyment of these things that 578 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: we can make together when a structural engineer who knows 579 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: way more than new about the tensile strength of steel, 580 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: and you know, like a city planner and a government 581 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: body and the willing taxpayers that put money into this, 582 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: and we should all just walk across this thing and 583 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: marvel and it's like amazing thing, you know, like we 584 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: now can get from that side to that side, you know, 585 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: like you know, millions of times a day. And I 586 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: love that. First of all, you got ahead of me, 587 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: and in a positive way. But I was going to 588 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: acknowledge that I was so grateful I didn't have to 589 00:33:54,280 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: be a mechanic. And that also that I being able 590 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: to trust people in small and direct ways, in in 591 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: ways that you understand, which is if you notice more 592 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: like the things in your book, it's easy to do. Yeah, 593 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: it might lay the foundation of restoring some trust in 594 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: a larger sense. And being able to forget things is 595 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: very important. And I think knowing that design the world 596 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: like helps you in that way. Not that you don't 597 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: need to know how to do it or need to 598 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,959 Speaker 1: know how it works, but you need to know someone 599 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: thought about it. You know. It's not like being a parent. 600 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: You know, like, like you don't need your kid to 601 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: know all this I've done for you all the time. 602 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: That's the water they swim in is that you love 603 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: them and take care of them, you know. And so 604 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: them not recognizing the water isn't a fault on their part. 605 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: They shouldn't recognize the water. They should just like swim 606 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: in it, you know. And a well designed world that 607 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: is about care and mutual benefit and all that sort 608 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: of stuff is like that and super I mean, it's 609 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: why I do the things I do. And you can't 610 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: read this book of yours about all these genius little 611 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: things and some of the things that don't work without 612 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: believing that we actually are highly interdependent. We need each other, 613 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: and we're all better off if we just keep trying 614 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: to get better and devise. And sometimes the answer is 615 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: not a mega solution that affects the whole world. Sometimes 616 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: it's a low cost, high impact, active genius that can 617 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: echo across national borders even But that's what I got 618 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: out of reading your book. I thought, you know this, Oh, 619 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: that's that's so heartening, because that's what I feel when 620 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: we do these stories, that it really is an optimistic 621 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: view to sort of examine these things and realize our 622 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: interdependence and uh yeah, I'm so, I'm so Pleately if 623 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: we don't, we don't often like talk about it directly, 624 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: like we hope you get it through the castalto of 625 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: the of the show in the book and so well, 626 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: given the political polarization in the world in America, it's 627 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: probably better that you don't talk about it directly. People 628 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: come to it almost by osmosis. I think that more 629 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: and more this idea of us being dependent on each other, 630 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: and that a world in which we're completely on our 631 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: own that some people like love to imagine for themselves 632 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: politically is a terrible world that we don't want at all, 633 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: and that these physical manifestations of us working together in 634 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: the form of cities, in the form of roads. You know, 635 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: people should recognize how much they depend on each other, 636 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: even when they feel like they're completely alone. And it 637 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: all requires like an idea that we have design systems 638 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: and expertise and a faith in those systems, and that 639 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: no one person has to do everything that only works 640 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: because we all work together on it. And the built 641 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: world is all is all that no one person can 642 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: build a building, no company can build a bridge. It 643 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: takes a government, you know, and the government is our 644 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,399 Speaker 1: is the manifestation of our collective care for each other. 645 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 1: And I don't think that's anything to shy away from. 646 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: I think that's something to celebrate, to exalt in. And 647 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: it manifests, like you said, in in the biggest things, 648 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: and it manifests in the smallest things, like little tiny 649 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: things and little regulations. And there's all types of silly, 650 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: dumb side effects of regulations, of people having good thoughts 651 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: about things that have bad effects. I mean, like we 652 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: have a whole section on like weird architectural features that 653 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: have to do with taxes, you know, like there's always 654 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: a time they're trying to figure out how to tax people, 655 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: you know, for governments to run and basically monarchies to 656 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: run at this point, so they would tax like this, 657 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: how many bricks you had in your house. They would 658 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: tax how many windows you had in your house. And 659 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: so then people would board up windows, and they attack 660 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: how many bricks you had, so people made bigger bricks, 661 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 1: you know, like and then they would tax, like in Paris, 662 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: they tax like how high your roof was, you know, 663 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: like how many stories you had, and so but they 664 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: decided that it wasn't taxed past a certain line, which 665 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: created that manswered roof, that sort of manswered roof for 666 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: the dormer, which is like the Paris roof that that's 667 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: created because of taxes, you know what you mean, Like 668 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: and it's like a dumb side effect of trying to 669 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 1: solve a problem and then in the end you made 670 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: this beautiful roof line that we think of. It's quintessentially, 671 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, like Parisian, you know, and and so like 672 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: it's not that we don't make mistakes when we collectively 673 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 1: decided to solve problems and there there's top down things 674 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: and ways to get around it. That's what the world 675 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: is made of, is that sort of conversation between well 676 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: intentioned things and well intened things that work, well intended 677 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: things that fail, dumb things that we find ways to 678 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: work around. Because people are great at avoiding taxes, they 679 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: will do anything, like they have to find all kinds 680 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: of ways. And you can date the period of taxation 681 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: of a building because of the size of the brick 682 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: in England, Like that's a that's an amazing asing thing 683 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: to like notice and recognize and realize that that was 684 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: part folly and also part just good story that made 685 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: something like interesting happen. And it's not that we collectively 686 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: figure stuff out. We don't. We're a mess, you you 687 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: know what I mean. And but that all that stuff 688 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: is what makes design and that's why it's fun to 689 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: look at because it's all just stories in the end, 690 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: and it's a fascinating world if you just know to 691 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: look at it more. After this, if you were the 692 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: czar of the infrastructure bill that had just passed the Congress, 693 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: that is, you've had this kind of money based on 694 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: your now many years of experience looking at all these 695 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: systems and all these things that worked helpful lot of 696 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: people are that created some problems. What do you think 697 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: the priorities should be on what we should be doing now? 698 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: First of all, the natural lifespan of concrete is, you know, 699 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: like about a hundred years. It just so happens that 700 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: we're entering into this era where all those beautiful things 701 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: of w p A built are about to reach their 702 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: natural lifespan and they require just maintenance. Like I I 703 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: think that one of the ways that design reporting or 704 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: design thinking gets things wrong is that you can come 705 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: up with some great solution and solve a problem and 706 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: then it's done. But that's not how the world works. 707 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: The world is much more mundane and it has much 708 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 1: more to do with maintenance than solutions necessarily. And so 709 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: the first thing I would do is assess all the 710 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: things that we have. Is like, we have these reinforced 711 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: concrete structures that have rebar that are rusting and things 712 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 1: falling apart, and we should just do what I would 713 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: consider to be, you know, or most people consider to 714 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: be the boring work of just making the things that 715 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: we have last another hundred years. I know that's not 716 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, like super exciting, but I feel like that 717 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: we should begin to, like, instead of just the genius 718 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: problem solvers and solutions of great little design innovations, we 719 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: should start recognizing that maintenance is a reason why we're here, 720 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: maintenance and care of the things we have, because the 721 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: greenest building is a building that's already built, and to 722 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: recognizing that that we just have to spend money on 723 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: things and and make them last longer. And the other 724 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: part of it that I would spend on it is 725 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: I would do kind of the w P a thing 726 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: of like going this thing that we're making is not 727 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: only going to be functional and important. It's gonna be beautiful, 728 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: and you're gonna be proud to be an American when 729 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: you see it, and not shy away from it because us, 730 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, because it seems like a boondoggle or 731 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: it seems like too expensive or something. Just like, really 732 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: lean into you know what. We make those things because 733 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: we do them together. And that's what America is. That 734 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: we are an idea and that to me is like 735 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: how I would present it as much as make it. Yeah, 736 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: that's how I would do it. Before we go, First 737 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: of all, thank you for that. I think I believe 738 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: that most people, in spite of all this polarization and 739 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: fighting and name calling in the world today, if you 740 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: scratch nearly any of us deep enough, there's still a 741 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: person down there somewhere, you know, and we have basic 742 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: human instincts. And I think the one thing about you know, 743 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: reading your book and saying all these zillion things that 744 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: you noticed, I think people do notice more than they 745 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: know or even are aware of. But there's so much 746 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: that they don't know, and there's so busy they have 747 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: to worry about how they're gonna, you know, bring in 748 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: and you help them to understand that, and so I 749 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 1: think that what you said is right. I think anything 750 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: that increases our self confidence and our self awareness will 751 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: increase our willingness to cooperate and increase our ability to 752 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: begin with the end in mind. I find that this 753 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: is social infrastructure, I guess. But it's like all these 754 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: things that you talk about, the things that were done 755 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: well and things that weren't. Most everybody that built whatever 756 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: they were building, they tried to do a good job 757 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: of what they did. That's the conclusion I reached. And 758 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. I mean, 759 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: once in a while you have a thing like this 760 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: Miami deal where the parking decks weren't maintained all that. 761 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: And I think that your maintenance argument is very good, 762 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 1: maybe just because I've reached the age when it's all maintenance, 763 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, I think, I think, Maden, this is the 764 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: greatest thing since slice bread. But but you have given 765 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: all your listeners and your readers are great gift because 766 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: I honestly believe that knowing things bill's confidence, and you 767 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: have to have a certain amount of self confidence before 768 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: you can entertain trust and cooperation. We need more social 769 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: capital in America. And ironically we might be able to 770 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: best build it through physical capital. I agree. I agree. 771 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 1: That's easy to rally around something that's a big physical 772 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 1: object because you know it was made sincerely and that's 773 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: a great thing to recognize. Yeah, it's one of the 774 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: great things. Like infrastructure bills are like the ones that 775 00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: get past right, and it's because people recognize that building 776 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: things together is you know, what makes us a human yep. 777 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: And it's valuable not only to people who are who 778 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: need other things like to improve their income or there 779 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: access to healthcare or whatever. It helps some move around 780 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: for it, but it's valuable for people who need to 781 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: succeed at what they're doing now, who are aspirational and 782 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: who are working. And I feel good about it. Yeah. 783 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,359 Speaker 1: I hope I get to see you when I'm out 784 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: in California. I would love that. Let me know. I 785 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: love that. I have some zany friends out there that 786 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: we would love to have you at dinner that I 787 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 1: could grill you would sit on me. Well, it's a deal, 788 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,479 Speaker 1: you gotta do. I'll pay for the meal if you'll 789 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: be grilled. That sounds delightful. Thank you so much, Thank you. 790 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: Why am I telling you this? Is a product action 791 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation, and at Will Medium. 792 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Craigmanascian and Will Manadi. Our production 793 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,879 Speaker 1: team includes Jamison Katsufas, Tom Galton, Sarah Harowitz, and Jake Young, 794 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: with production support from Liz Rafferee and Josh Farnham. Original 795 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: music by Watt White. Special thanks to John Sykes, John Davidson, 796 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: on hell Orina, Corey Gansley, Kevin thurm Oscar Flores, and 797 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: all our dedicated staff and partners at the Clinton Foundation. Hi, 798 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm Dr Mike Kempill, Director of the Presidential Leadership scholars Program, 799 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 1: one of a kind partnership between the presidential centers of 800 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, and 801 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: Lyndon Baines Johnson. President Clinton often says that the key 802 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: to great leadership is in finding our common humanity, something 803 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 1: that's needed now more than ever. That's why each year 804 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: we bring together a dramatically diverse group of leaders, from 805 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,280 Speaker 1: doctors to teachers, elected officials to scientists, active military and veterans, 806 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: all of whom have a passion for making the world 807 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: a better place. We create a culture of collaboration that 808 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: transcends partisan divides and ideological differences in service of a 809 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,919 Speaker 1: greater good. Today, presidential leadership scholars across the country are 810 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: working together and actively applying the lessons learned in our 811 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: program to help tackle today's most pressing challenges. You can 812 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: learn more about this work and see how you can 813 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 1: get involved by visiting www dot Clinton Foundation dot org. 814 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: Slash podcast