Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I
Speaker 1: grew up on an older row. Hey, everybody welcomed episode
Speaker 1: hundred thirty nine of The Hunting Collective Big Show Today.
Speaker 1: Say hey, Phil, Hello, how are you doing? Sir? Doing well?
Speaker 1: You have maintained your skepticism. We're just before we hit record.
Speaker 1: Your your skeptical of almost every decision I make on
Speaker 1: the show. You know, I'm just here to balance things out.
Speaker 1: I am. I am the show's devil's advocate. Uh, that's
Speaker 1: my job. Thank you well. Thanks the return of Janice
Speaker 1: the Eagle patel Us A lot of an eagle patel Us. Hello, Johanni,
Speaker 1: good morning, how are you. It's I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful.
Speaker 1: Now before we go anywhere, thank you to Element for
Speaker 1: being the title sponsor this program. Yanny, is this your
Speaker 1: first time trying Element? Yes? What do you give your thoughts?
Speaker 1: Because you you do a lot of running. Um, I
Speaker 1: hear tell from Maggie Mary Magdalen that you guys are
Speaker 1: gonna run at an actual race of some kind. We
Speaker 1: had many races plan but they've all been canceled. And well,
Speaker 1: what do you think of the salty deliciousness. That is,
Speaker 1: it's exactly that. The first gulp you're like, whoa, yeah,
Speaker 1: did I just jump into a refreshing ocean? But then
Speaker 1: the second gulf you're you're used to it. Then by
Speaker 1: the third one, I'm thinking, man, I could really see
Speaker 1: how that salt would help my calves to not cramp,
Speaker 1: probably on a mile. It's become essential for me. If
Speaker 1: you want to learn more, drink element Ta dot com
Speaker 1: slash meat Eater. There's pictures of us hunting and doing
Speaker 1: things and drinking elements so you will like that. Go there,
Speaker 1: Do I get to take this whole box home? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and drink it a whole box for you. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: grab a couple of those before you. Let's yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the orange flavor Orange salt, Orange salt. I gotta say that.
Speaker 1: Raspberries by far my favorite. It's good, by far my favorite.
Speaker 1: I like it because just a little little little pack
Speaker 1: of there's not much in there, maybe a tablespoon. It
Speaker 1: does a whole court. Yeah. Um, I might even dilute
Speaker 1: it just to even a little bit more while I'm running.
Speaker 1: It's full of electual lyce. And as you said, some
Speaker 1: of the other similar products out there on the market
Speaker 1: are just full of sugar point where the it's just
Speaker 1: it's this unpleasant and so drink Element dot com slash
Speaker 1: Meteor hit it up. Now, we got a lot of
Speaker 1: to do today, Yanni, do you want to kind of
Speaker 1: tell the twisting and turning tail of asked the Eagle.
Speaker 1: Do we want to leave that behind the scenes? Phil
Speaker 1: and I have been I don't know if there's a
Speaker 1: lot of twisting and turning. I was trying to give
Speaker 1: some dramatics to the when I when you asked about
Speaker 1: it over email, I replied, and I used the word stasis. Stasis.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a perfect descriptor. I would agree.
Speaker 1: It's just busy over here, Meteor and um, yeah, asked
Speaker 1: the Eagle. It just was taken a little too much time.
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. So we've opted here at th HC.
Speaker 1: Will swaddle it, take care of it and help it
Speaker 1: to grow. Um. We we'll do as many, asked the Eagle,
Speaker 1: segments as possible. Now we're all busy, we should I
Speaker 1: do want to talk with you about the old fall
Speaker 1: hunting schedule. What's're up to? So what's the laid out
Speaker 1: for us? That's the most exciting because I know you've
Speaker 1: had some things canceled, right, like all of us have.
Speaker 1: Kind of, no, not right now, not yet, not yet,
Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you about my weekend. Man, I
Speaker 1: went from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows.
Speaker 1: Kind of I'm being a bit dramatic, but I was
Speaker 1: shooting field points. I sent you some pictures just like
Speaker 1: the you know, yeah three inch group at forty yards,
Speaker 1: just feeling great to look out elk. Yeah. Threw on
Speaker 1: some broadheads and just really what broadheads? I tried three
Speaker 1: different ones and I'm just spraying broadheads. So, um, I
Speaker 1: think I've got a tuning issue. I've gotten friends, so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go and try to get that take care
Speaker 1: of today. But I always wait too long to switch
Speaker 1: over to the broadheads. I've gotta have two weeks until
Speaker 1: my first hot. Yeah, I feel you. I feel like
Speaker 1: that's probably what most people do. Well, I don't say
Speaker 1: probably what most people do wrong, but it's a common occurrence.
Speaker 1: So I have gone to probably overcompensating and just destroying
Speaker 1: my targets by shooting broadheads or they destroy targets. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you and I have been sharing some targets, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I I I probably do it. Wait earlier, I doll
Speaker 1: out of the whole pack of broadheads and destroy my
Speaker 1: targets in an effort to not be in the situation
Speaker 1: room because I've been there so many times, so many
Speaker 1: damned times. So but you know what, I'd rather be
Speaker 1: here than have a good, good shooting broadhead and not
Speaker 1: have my form and strength down, which is where I
Speaker 1: think where I feel. I feel like really good, like
Speaker 1: I can. My draw cycle feels good, my release feels good.
Speaker 1: I'm shooting well. I just need to Hopefully it's just
Speaker 1: gonna be a couple of minor tweaks. I gotta admit here.
Speaker 1: I feel my arrow is going where I wanted to,
Speaker 1: and I'm shooting. My groups are fine. I've been shooting
Speaker 1: out the fifty yards is I can shoot the fifty
Speaker 1: six in my backyard. So I've been shooting out the
Speaker 1: fifty six by the byby standing on the sidewalk in
Speaker 1: my little suburban development, and people walk by, and some
Speaker 1: some are very like, oh what kind of bow was that?
Speaker 1: And other people just kind of wide berth that baby
Speaker 1: and go across the street give me that look like
Speaker 1: should you be doing that. I feel like that's gonna
Speaker 1: come to an end. Yeah, probably probably whatever somebody's gonna
Speaker 1: be like, isn't there a covenant against that? Are you
Speaker 1: in city limits or no? Yeah you are? Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: But I just feel like it's both. There's lots of
Speaker 1: archery targets around the area, and so I just feel
Speaker 1: like it's I just know it's one of those things
Speaker 1: where you should ask better, ask for forgiveness than permission.
Speaker 1: That's right, unless, of course, forgiveness is when you fence.
Speaker 1: Sorry about your friend, Well, it's all fenced, so they're like,
Speaker 1: the worst thing I can do is probably plunge one
Speaker 1: through somebody's fence, And so I just like, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: can I can I buy you like seven extra vertical
Speaker 1: pieces of your fence so in case I put an
Speaker 1: arrow through it, I can. There's a guy in my
Speaker 1: neighborhod place that does the exact same thing. He's got
Speaker 1: his target like the back of his backyard. He has
Speaker 1: his massive open gate and he goes to like the
Speaker 1: sidewalk and through the gate. Yeah yeah, I mean you
Speaker 1: gotta do that, um, but I will, I admit to like,
Speaker 1: I felt I feel really good about accuracy but my form,
Speaker 1: like my mental archery games is so far off, it's off,
Speaker 1: and I can't. I mean, I'm to that point and
Speaker 1: I have friends that are do this and like serially
Speaker 1: do this, like do this every year, where they're just
Speaker 1: switching everything up, change my stabilizer, put more weight on it.
Speaker 1: And that's where I'm at right now. But it's not
Speaker 1: that I'm shooting portally. It's just I can't get comfortable.
Speaker 1: I can't get to the point where I'm not worried
Speaker 1: about something. And I think it's just mental, but I'm not.
Speaker 1: It's and it's not that I'm it's not that I'm
Speaker 1: jumping the trigger. It's nothing like that. It just feels
Speaker 1: like not comfortable. It doesn't feel it's almost like you
Speaker 1: want to be not comfortable. Yeah, maybe maybe I've tried
Speaker 1: all the tricks that that you know, some of the
Speaker 1: experts have taught me over the years, which you know,
Speaker 1: like I play, put a little speaker behind my my elbow,
Speaker 1: my back elbow, and then I pull towards that like
Speaker 1: instead of help you not jump the trigger, you pull
Speaker 1: towards that music, just like send your elbow towards that music.
Speaker 1: You try to feel that muscle in your back pulling.
Speaker 1: I've done all that, and I've switched to releases about
Speaker 1: six times. I have three different styles and releases. I
Speaker 1: keep going back and forth. So anyways, anybody that wants
Speaker 1: to write in th HC the meter dot com and
Speaker 1: help me. Maybe this is kind of like the first
Speaker 1: asked to like ask the Eagle practice what would you
Speaker 1: do to fix your brain? Oh? I thought you're gonna
Speaker 1: say this is the Eagle asks where you have been?
Speaker 1: And I are like, dude, we don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: When we call somebody and they help. I like this idea.
Speaker 1: We call a listener, like, hey man, we can struggle them.
Speaker 1: What we can call your boy John Dudley. John Dudley's man.
Speaker 1: He's a sense a man. And I've never shot I've
Speaker 1: never been more comfortable. I've never shot better when John
Speaker 1: was available, Like when I could talk to him and
Speaker 1: say like, hey man, what's going on? He'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll do this, send me a video and I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: And I think that kind of like that thing has
Speaker 1: helped me to know what I'm doing wrong when I'm
Speaker 1: doing it. That doesn't help me fix always fix the
Speaker 1: thing and that's That's one thing that I tell a
Speaker 1: lot of people that are new to it as the
Speaker 1: one thing. I'm not the best bow shot in the world.
Speaker 1: But learning from people like John Dudley and others, it
Speaker 1: was like, now I know what I'm doing wrong. If
Speaker 1: I'm shooting low left, I can tell you where I
Speaker 1: close my eyes and tell you where the air is
Speaker 1: gonna miss. You know, when I released that area, be like,
Speaker 1: oh that was low left, hope that was high right. Hope,
Speaker 1: that's dead center. And so at least you have that
Speaker 1: knowledge where you're not guessing why that air didn't get
Speaker 1: here I supposed to go, you know, in terms of
Speaker 1: your form, So you know, maybe right in and help
Speaker 1: Yoanni with his broadhead problem. Did you shoot mechanicals fixed everything? No, No,
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm gonna I'm gonna ready for an elk hunt,
Speaker 1: and so I don't think I'm gonna shoot mechanicals, not
Speaker 1: an elk. I know people do with great success, but
Speaker 1: I think that'll be an enduring debate in the hunting world.
Speaker 1: Just fixed. I've got a couple of different fixed blades
Speaker 1: I'm messing with. Like I said, I think a little
Speaker 1: bit of bow tune and I'll get there. Okay, All right,
Speaker 1: well let's let's let's give people a little precursor. What
Speaker 1: asked the eagle? What has asked the eagle? That's right, okay,
Speaker 1: that's where how I don't know how we got you
Speaker 1: actually asking me about my fall? Another step back, and
Speaker 1: but you want to you want to take okay, go
Speaker 1: back to my hunt's middle step. Uh so yeah, Colorado Elk.
Speaker 1: I'm going with Jason Phelps. Phelps games calls, which is
Speaker 1: gonna be awesome, gum. Nothing nothing like having a dude
Speaker 1: that builds game calls calling for you. But the flip
Speaker 1: side of that is that if I shoot one or
Speaker 1: if I get my opportunity call for him, then I
Speaker 1: have to call for him and I have to really,
Speaker 1: you know, step make sure my aimes on points. So again,
Speaker 1: two weeks before the season, guess why I did last night?
Speaker 1: Put it. I'll call in my mouth, but I will
Speaker 1: say that for me, making sweet Elk sounds is a
Speaker 1: lot easier just to pick back up and shooting that bom.
Speaker 1: Uh you're feeling that for me? Eater hunts. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: watch out for that on YouTube. That's right, be out
Speaker 1: when they come back. In a quarter of one. Probably
Speaker 1: next year when finally we're out of the pandemic, we're
Speaker 1: gonna rease this baby. Uh let's see what else do
Speaker 1: I have? I drew a really bit and uh Montana
Speaker 1: elk rifle tag, which I'll be hunting like late October.
Speaker 1: I got ten days set aside for that. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have a big wall tent. Hopefully many many friends calm
Speaker 1: to help find a big bull for me. I'll come
Speaker 1: help you. Okay, yeah, I'll be there and I'll be
Speaker 1: there for the opener, luring your binos and a dryp
Speaker 1: on easy. Um. What else? Going to Wisconsin for white
Speaker 1: tailt hunt with my dad archery, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna swing around in a tree saddle for a
Speaker 1: whole week. Body. Yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's great. I got the kneepads set up going.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, you really can shoot three sixty degrees out
Speaker 1: of one of those things, and like there's no drawback
Speaker 1: that I've seen that I that I can figure out yet,
Speaker 1: Like you can sit there. Last year I sat two
Speaker 1: full days during gun season in November. Um in it
Speaker 1: super comfy all day. What I like about it. The
Speaker 1: best is that there is no slack. You're always under tension,
Speaker 1: So it's not like if you fall asleep or slip
Speaker 1: or whatever, there's gonna be like this drop or the
Speaker 1: sensation of falling and then it, you know, picks up.
Speaker 1: You're just always under tension. So even if you slip out,
Speaker 1: like you'll kind of depending on how far you've leaned
Speaker 1: out from the tree, you'll swing back to the tree
Speaker 1: and that's it. It's very reassuring. Oh yeah, you just
Speaker 1: had to get used to trusting. Uh, you know that
Speaker 1: rope that it's holding you there. There's a long debate
Speaker 1: tree steps or climbing sticks. Man, I'm gonna use sticks
Speaker 1: because they actually seemed easier. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's probably new screws these days that go in super
Speaker 1: super fast and you can zip right up there. That
Speaker 1: is satisfying. When you get one of those things going,
Speaker 1: it just starts rocking in the tree. You know, I
Speaker 1: should probably bring both. I don't have any problem with
Speaker 1: putting a couple of holes in a tree me either.
Speaker 1: I've I've had I've had very experiences both ways. Last
Speaker 1: year at then on the back forty mark Kenny gave
Speaker 1: me these climbing sticks I was unfamiliar with, and boy
Speaker 1: did I struggle because the tree was just one of
Speaker 1: those trees that had a serpentine pattern going it's all.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seemed like it was way too loud.
Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, if I just had a handful of
Speaker 1: tree steps and I could just screw them in real quickly,
Speaker 1: I'd be up this tree and you know, fifteen minutes,
Speaker 1: but instead of forty five minutes of banging these sticks
Speaker 1: against the tree trying to wrap yourself around a big
Speaker 1: tree and then get get the straps. But see, I
Speaker 1: think your problem there is that someone gave you those
Speaker 1: things like the hour before you're going into the field.
Speaker 1: Just yeah, yeah, so if you yeah, that's another debate
Speaker 1: right in dot com. Maybe we'll do that for us
Speaker 1: to eagle. But anyway, yeah, any other big I'm going
Speaker 1: you'll there hunt with Steve from an episode of Metia
Speaker 1: dur in Colorado for fourth season, which is pretty special.
Speaker 1: I've never gotten hunt. Yeah, and this year it's late
Speaker 1: and so we're hunting, like I think it's like the
Speaker 1: tow of November, which is way late for Colorado. So
Speaker 1: we should have some pretty good action. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: I'm topping finishing it all off, rounding it off with
Speaker 1: a trip to Arkansas for a double um where I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go and do some raccoon hunting with Clay Newcom
Speaker 1: and then after that I'm going to do some speckled
Speaker 1: belly goose hunting with Danielle Pruett and Jonathan Wilkins. Black Revival.
Speaker 1: Oh really nice? Yeah? Oh yeah, man, that's a good
Speaker 1: it's a good time. And then all like a lot
Speaker 1: of Mediator Hunts episodes at all, all of them well,
Speaker 1: well besides that mule deer hunt with Steve Um who else?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I also drew a rifle pronghorn tag here
Speaker 1: in Montana. No, not far, only an hour away Montana.
Speaker 1: I didn't draw anything, and then they were sold out
Speaker 1: of surplus. I know, crazy, first time maybe ever ever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so I I had. I had a fallback plan.
Speaker 1: Don't worry, everybody know you're worried. I had a fallback plan, wyomings,
Speaker 1: I will be hunting pronghorn here. Yeah. No, man, the
Speaker 1: demand is high. Its crazy, that's and you know there's
Speaker 1: a whole another conversation about good and bad of of
Speaker 1: promoting the outdoors in the way that we do, and
Speaker 1: and what the pandemic has caused and all those things.
Speaker 1: But I thought, I feel lucky to live in a
Speaker 1: state like Montan, Like although we're friendly to nonresidents, we
Speaker 1: kind of limited and it's not like you go to
Speaker 1: Colorado and everybody's just like, well, I didn't draw anywhere else,
Speaker 1: So let's go out to Colorado and just pack the woods.
Speaker 1: Do I love I love I love Texas. I love
Speaker 1: everybody listening in Texas. But that was, you know, in
Speaker 1: the Texas p h A chapter. That's what these guys did.
Speaker 1: You know that most most of them we're going to Colorado.
Speaker 1: Well it's close, it's close, right, you can make it.
Speaker 1: You can zip up there really quick. It's pretty easy
Speaker 1: to get. It's it's you know, decently easy to draw.
Speaker 1: But then if you don't draw, you can, you know,
Speaker 1: famously just getting over the counter teg. So we won't
Speaker 1: mention some of the other states that have good over
Speaker 1: the counter opportunities, but there are many. So I'm getting
Speaker 1: to you guys will enjoy um. In a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go down to Louisiana do a gator hunt
Speaker 1: with Troy and Jacob Landry, the swamp people from the
Speaker 1: History Channel. I've been down there a bunch of times.
Speaker 1: That's fun. So we'll do like an audio experience for
Speaker 1: that for everybody. There's no chance that isn't hilarious. Hold
Speaker 1: on audio experience. That means Phils included. I invited Phil.
Speaker 1: I said, Phil, you're welcome to come, and Phil was
Speaker 1: a little I think he has some trepidation. Well, it
Speaker 1: was just kind of a last minute thing. It was.
Speaker 1: It's just tough because school starting and it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to be like, hey, I'm going to Louisiana for
Speaker 1: two weeks to hunt gators with that over weeks. No,
Speaker 1: not two weeks, it's like two days. No if into
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like like a like short notice
Speaker 1: short So I don't think I'm gonna make it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I I wield the the little recorder pretty well.
Speaker 1: I feel so we're gonna get wool and should just
Speaker 1: think it would be a great way for to fill
Speaker 1: something outdoor experience experience, and it is. It is one
Speaker 1: of the more gnarly experiences that that you can you
Speaker 1: can have in the outdoors. You basically if you've ever
Speaker 1: seen the show. You basically put a rotten piece of
Speaker 1: chicken on a hook, you drop, you to tie that
Speaker 1: hook to a tree, hang a hook down on the water.
Speaker 1: You do about twenty thirty of those, and you go back,
Speaker 1: have yourself a cocktail, wake up early in the morning,
Speaker 1: get on the boat, you go check those. If that
Speaker 1: if that tree is shaken, as Trey Andrew says, it's
Speaker 1: a tree shaker, then you have to get the rope.
Speaker 1: And you're literally pulling up a giant dinosaur out of
Speaker 1: the water. And some other dude is there with a
Speaker 1: twenty two with no sights, and so if you can
Speaker 1: get that alligator's head out of the water, he puts
Speaker 1: you have to put that twenty two at the exact
Speaker 1: right spot boom, right between the eyes. Then you pull
Speaker 1: it up into the boat. And if you if you
Speaker 1: fill all your tags for the day, you end up
Speaker 1: with a fairly small boat full of gators. So you
Speaker 1: end up either sitting on a dead gator or at
Speaker 1: least sitting on a on a seat and putting your
Speaker 1: feet on the gator. And it's just even after they
Speaker 1: shoot him, do they take their mouth shut. So you
Speaker 1: need me to call your gal. I mean it might help, honestly.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to ask the Eagle. Hopefully everybody's
Speaker 1: now excited for our hunt with with Troy and Jacob Landry. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, my dad's coming actually to Montana ton Elk
Speaker 1: and opening day. So well then you can't come and
Speaker 1: help me like you just promised, you know this opening
Speaker 1: day archery. Oh so I can come help you. Okay,
Speaker 1: I help you there. But then yeah, I got Missouri
Speaker 1: Brakes archery tag, got my Wyoming prong, worn Idaho mule deer.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling pretty good. Feeling real good about it. Um,
Speaker 1: little Charles Rodney action later in the year, nice rabbit hunt.
Speaker 1: All right, asked the eagles, give us give us the
Speaker 1: full now we're finally made it there, give us the
Speaker 1: full rundown of of asked the Eagle is going to
Speaker 1: be a podcast? And you did a few? Yeah, very
Speaker 1: much like based on like a not an old timing.
Speaker 1: They still do plenty of them, but just to basically
Speaker 1: like a call in radio show where folks would call
Speaker 1: in and we would they would just ask hunting and
Speaker 1: fishing questions to me and do my best to answer them. Yep,
Speaker 1: and Uh, it's it's you got Metator hunts, you get
Speaker 1: Metator TV. All the stuff that you do, we just
Speaker 1: can't find. Maybe one day you'll turn it to its
Speaker 1: own podcast. Yeah, we'll see. I'm hoping that we can breathe,
Speaker 1: breathe enough life into it that'll excite the This will
Speaker 1: be fun though, just to do a couple here and
Speaker 1: there and plug him in And yeah, as and as
Speaker 1: I told you, you you need like i've every time we've
Speaker 1: had a listener on this show, almost every time, and
Speaker 1: Phil can attest almost every time. The listeners do amazing.
Speaker 1: These people are thoughtful, they're funny, they get they get
Speaker 1: our humor, they get what we're trying to accomplish, and
Speaker 1: they always come through them. And so no pressure on Brandon,
Speaker 1: who were about to call? Who wrote in um, But
Speaker 1: we're gonna do our best to answer questions and we'll
Speaker 1: see where we get to. You ready to call Brandon?
Speaker 1: No telephone needed, no skype Hell Brandon, Ben O'Brien, how's
Speaker 1: it going? Man? Hey Danny, how's it going? Can you
Speaker 1: hear me all the way in Canada? Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: little little okay? Phil? Is this okay? Can you hear Brandon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll make it work. Cands great brand. Say hi to Phil. Hey, Brandon,
Speaker 1: how are you fantastic? Buddy? Is there anything you need
Speaker 1: to say to Phil? I know we we did. We
Speaker 1: talked the other day, and is there anything you need
Speaker 1: to say to Phil? Would you like to to try
Speaker 1: to get film motivated for his first hunt? Just just
Speaker 1: floor is yours to an outward profession of my unconditional
Speaker 1: love for you, Phil, and I just I really hope that,
Speaker 1: I really hope that your first time goes great whenever
Speaker 1: that happens, so that we can like milk for it
Speaker 1: until then. I I appreciate that. I gotta say that
Speaker 1: was a lot more um effective than Chuck Norris and
Speaker 1: David Hasselhoff combined. You've given Brden the power of Hasselhoff
Speaker 1: and Nora. That's right, Okay, that's fun. The rest of
Speaker 1: my life is going to be pointless. So thank you
Speaker 1: for Hey, we're making people's lives. Brandon, say Hoti, Yanni Patellis, Hey, Janni,
Speaker 1: how's it going. It's going well, man. Thanks for calling
Speaker 1: in or thanks for accepting our call. Yeah, either way,
Speaker 1: for these I wouldn't miss it for the world. The
Speaker 1: radio shows of the twenty one century. They call you,
Speaker 1: we call you, Yeah, exactly, that's that's funny. I was
Speaker 1: talking to my grandma about it, and I have to like,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to explain a podcast. She goes,
Speaker 1: you know, anything new in your life, Like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: actually something really awesome. But then you have to explain
Speaker 1: what a podcast is and then make a cell phone
Speaker 1: for how you get the podcast. You can take a
Speaker 1: radio show just it's like a radio show. When you
Speaker 1: were a kid, and that's how you've watched TV was
Speaker 1: over the radio. It's like that. Yeah, podcasts are reverse radio.
Speaker 1: It's like it's the radio, but the opposite. That's fine. Now, Brandon,
Speaker 1: you're you've made it onto the first ever actually aired
Speaker 1: asked the Eagle segment and Yanni. And Yanni is prepared
Speaker 1: to take your question. He's prepared to answer it and
Speaker 1: to the best of his ability, I will assist him
Speaker 1: in any way that I can, and so give us
Speaker 1: a little bit of backstory and then, um, briefly your question. Sure, So,
Speaker 1: I've been hunting since forever. Part of I guess third
Speaker 1: or fourth generation uh Northern Ontario hunter. Um, and I
Speaker 1: wasn't really introduced to the idea of back country hunting
Speaker 1: until I've watched Mediator on Netflix when it came out
Speaker 1: on Netflix. So, um, I've been really inspired to kind
Speaker 1: of take that route with my hunting career because I
Speaker 1: was always really inspired by the way Steve talked about, uh,
Speaker 1: the ethics involved and the connection to your food, right,
Speaker 1: which is something that you know, you go to deer
Speaker 1: camp and you get deer and you shoot moose, and
Speaker 1: that's just kind of you know that we hunt because
Speaker 1: it's cheap food, right, rather than looking at the broader
Speaker 1: ethical background of it. So, uh, this year, I actually
Speaker 1: just accepted a position at a separate I've been selling
Speaker 1: cards for three years, just accepted a position and management
Speaker 1: another store. So I'm gonna be pretty short on time,
Speaker 1: so i won't be able to do the typical week
Speaker 1: at the camps. So I thought, this is how I'm
Speaker 1: going to get my back country start. I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: a three day back country archery whitetail hunt on public land,
Speaker 1: of course, because you gotta. Um. So my question for
Speaker 1: you on and anybody really is how sorry, what are
Speaker 1: some things that you would suggest for a first time
Speaker 1: d I Y solo back country hunter? Um? Anything dear
Speaker 1: lessons you wish you would have learned before your first
Speaker 1: hunt instead of on it or out it. Um, anything
Speaker 1: that you think would be important to know going into this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how it sounds interesting. Back country white tail is something
Speaker 1: I've never done, but I should probably add it all
Speaker 1: my to my bucket list. How far you plan on
Speaker 1: going in? I should be about four to five kilometers,
Speaker 1: that's kind of you gotta get past the you gotta
Speaker 1: get past the moose to get to the deer that
Speaker 1: they don't cross too much habitat up here, which I
Speaker 1: should mention I wouldn't be going for moos if it
Speaker 1: were possible to get a tag, which it's not good.
Speaker 1: Well right the side impossible right hunt anyways, Um, so yeah,
Speaker 1: probably four or five kilometers in nice um and you're
Speaker 1: archery hunting. Yeah, yeah, uh, definitely bring an extra release. Yeah,
Speaker 1: here's a rule. Two is one, one is none. It
Speaker 1: was a rule you must follow up. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of items that you're always trying to figure out, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're gonna bring it, you need at
Speaker 1: least to have like two or more uh reasons or
Speaker 1: uses for that item, which is a good way to
Speaker 1: think about your you know, bad country gear, and that
Speaker 1: prevents you from doubling up sometimes or having two items
Speaker 1: that are kind of doing the same thing. But the release, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I've yet to lose one myself.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it will happen someday, but I definitely saw
Speaker 1: it quite over the years, quite a few clients that
Speaker 1: would lose a release and not have a backup in camp,
Speaker 1: and so we would be forced to, you know, lose
Speaker 1: a day of hunting because we had to run into
Speaker 1: town and uh and go and buy a release and
Speaker 1: definitely bring a couple of those. Um. But I was
Speaker 1: thinking about it over the weekend. We we knew your
Speaker 1: question on Friday, so I gotta think about what I
Speaker 1: was gonna tell you. But I was thinking about my
Speaker 1: first solo back country hunt, and I was chasing elk around,
Speaker 1: and I just remember how heavy my pack was, and
Speaker 1: I remember like halfway through the first morning thinking like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this isn't gonna really work with what
Speaker 1: I have on my back, Like I literally cannot chase
Speaker 1: elk around. So I'm either gonna have to drop my
Speaker 1: stuff and make a camp or I need to lighten
Speaker 1: up so much that you know, I can actually still
Speaker 1: chase with with my backpack on. So that's something that
Speaker 1: you need to figure out, is if you're gonna like
Speaker 1: make a camp and then just you know, bust off
Speaker 1: with just like a smaller pack and uh come back
Speaker 1: every evening, or if you're gonna try to be light
Speaker 1: enough where you can actually hunt um with the pack on.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you're doing ambush or spot
Speaker 1: and stock or what your strategy is going to be,
Speaker 1: but I have a plan for that because Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was in there with I don't know, it was probably
Speaker 1: fifty five sixty pound unpack, and it was just impossible
Speaker 1: to chase elk with that pack on my back. That's
Speaker 1: a great point to about. Wait, when people think about
Speaker 1: I've heard people throw out eighty pounds and and and
Speaker 1: this is in terms of packing out an elk or
Speaker 1: or whatever, which you probably won't have that issue with
Speaker 1: them with a white tail, but if you're packing the
Speaker 1: whole thing out, it'll be it'll be fairly heavy, that's right.
Speaker 1: But sixty pound pack is imp Like that is impossibly
Speaker 1: heavy to move around with. I don't care how much
Speaker 1: you you can you can roll down the trail, no
Speaker 1: big deal, you know, Lottie Dotty. It's it's a nice
Speaker 1: stroll with sixties pound pack. But when you started getting
Speaker 1: off trail and jumping logs and trying to make quick
Speaker 1: moves to get out in front of an animal, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be much different. But I'm guessing your white tail
Speaker 1: hunt's not going to be quite as it won't be
Speaker 1: quite as much chasing as there isn't an elk hunt. Um,
Speaker 1: what do you what's your strategy for the hunt? Brandon
Speaker 1: so whearing Whearing going. I've only been there once, um,
Speaker 1: and it was it was a few years ago. But
Speaker 1: I know they're I know they are allowed to deer
Speaker 1: there on other on other hunters account. Um. So that
Speaker 1: being said, I mean I suppose I'll find some sign
Speaker 1: and try to hunt over it, But I also did
Speaker 1: I did plan on doing some moving around, um, rather
Speaker 1: than having a base camp, just because I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where I'm going to find the most like the highest
Speaker 1: concentration of deer. Yeah, now are you gonna Are you
Speaker 1: gonna somehow getting get into a tree when you say
Speaker 1: hunt over it? Uh? No, I I imagine that hill
Speaker 1: is there. No, I I don't have a something like
Speaker 1: an interested in uh because while listening to Kenyan talk
Speaker 1: about it, um is saddles your saddles. But it's not
Speaker 1: something I I don't know anybody who uses one personally,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of hard to get that the exposure
Speaker 1: to it. Um And I mean I do, I have
Speaker 1: a climbing stand, but but be bringing it be much
Speaker 1: too loud and heavy. It's not exactly a new style.
Speaker 1: It is probably the very first one ever since Yes,
Speaker 1: you plan to find an overlook and then be able
Speaker 1: to glass and try to find where some critters are moving. Yes, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: I mean sort of sort of see if I can
Speaker 1: pick out it's a little swampy back there. Um. So
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how much success I'll have with classing,
Speaker 1: but I hope, I hope probably able to find something
Speaker 1: at least semi open. I mean, it's really it's still
Speaker 1: very full like a follia right now. So I know
Speaker 1: once I get into the falling and I have a
Speaker 1: lot like it's the big woods, so I don't have
Speaker 1: a lot better visibility to take advantage of. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would say that'll be probably the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 1: I would say to you talk about like specifically. Something
Speaker 1: I think that's probably more universal for everybody is organizing
Speaker 1: your gear, and to me, like a stuff sack, like
Speaker 1: you gotta have I go with anything I need to
Speaker 1: to dress and clean. An animal kids goes in one.
Speaker 1: I'll call a stuff sack, but you can call it whatever.
Speaker 1: Dry bag doesn't really matter. I got a medical kid
Speaker 1: that goes in a small dry bag, and so organizing
Speaker 1: your gear in that fashion, that way you're not rummaging
Speaker 1: through your pack and there's a bunch of stuff at
Speaker 1: the bottom. I always put my food in one dry bag.
Speaker 1: I always make sure food wise that I got um,
Speaker 1: a jet boil or some such item, and then m
Speaker 1: R Eas and I always pack myself some like gummy
Speaker 1: bears and snicker bar. You actually eat m R. Eas. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean that's what I call them. You're talking about
Speaker 1: freeze drive freeze, dried meals whatever m R Eas meals
Speaker 1: ready to eat, yeah, um, And so that's that's what
Speaker 1: I just try to make sure you're organized that way
Speaker 1: you don't have a that It also helps for the
Speaker 1: shifting weight of your pack, if you're able to put
Speaker 1: certain things in certain spots and lay it out in
Speaker 1: a way that makes makes that pack feel more comfortable
Speaker 1: and you can keep your gear dry. That's something I
Speaker 1: definitely do now religiously. Is that just about everything in
Speaker 1: my pack? Besides I don't know my water bladder and stuff.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't matter if it gets wet, but everything
Speaker 1: is packed into dry bags, like within my backpack, even
Speaker 1: though I'll have a rain cover over it. All my
Speaker 1: clothes are in a dry bag. The food is probably
Speaker 1: in a dry bag, which that kind of take out
Speaker 1: easily to hang in a tree in the dry bag. Um,
Speaker 1: obviously you're sleeping bag should be in a in a
Speaker 1: dry bag. Tent doesn't need to be but I think
Speaker 1: for did you say it's just three days, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would just you know, three nights, three nights, yeah,
Speaker 1: air on light and bringing less because it's not like
Speaker 1: you're gonna starve or or you know, like it's it's
Speaker 1: it's not like a major expedition. So just in knowing that,
Speaker 1: you'll be so much more comfortable and it'll be you'll
Speaker 1: spend less energy, will be easier getting around gold light.
Speaker 1: If you're looking at something and you're him and han
Speaker 1: about it, like leave it behind, like don't bring camp shoes,
Speaker 1: like just living your boots for four days, you'll be fine,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I was gonna mention I saw in
Speaker 1: your email that you're bringing a jet boil. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've already purchased that or if you've already
Speaker 1: taking it out of the packaging, have you? No, I haven't. Actually,
Speaker 1: it's funny I was. I had meant to go buy
Speaker 1: it after I got off the bone with Ben after work.
Speaker 1: I'm probably not right after um, and I was thinking, like, well,
Speaker 1: I fair waiting to see what they say. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: I got a recommendation for you. We all just recently
Speaker 1: over the course of the summer. I say we all,
Speaker 1: Steve and I, Um, I forget who had one, and
Speaker 1: we used it, and then Steve bought one and I
Speaker 1: borrowed Steve's for a trip. But the MSSAR reactor stove,
Speaker 1: it's basically the same idea as a jet boil. And
Speaker 1: maybe jet boils, I mean we I think the last
Speaker 1: one we bought was a couple of years ago. Maybe
Speaker 1: they've changed their product, but I swear it seemed like
Speaker 1: this reactor, like you couldn't walk away from it before
Speaker 1: the water was boiling. It was just that much faster
Speaker 1: and just like the way that it closes and locks
Speaker 1: down and kind of the lids a little bit tighter
Speaker 1: and better on it. It's got a it's had a
Speaker 1: built in handle. Um. I'd highly recommend checking out that
Speaker 1: ms ARE reactor stove. It's not awesome. Yeah, I used
Speaker 1: MSR water filters. I was an Army conduct for a while,
Speaker 1: so I have very limited back country experience. But it's
Speaker 1: all it's all been in groups, right, so it's time.
Speaker 1: It is much different. Um, because I was an Army
Speaker 1: Cup for seven years. I didn't eight team day expedition
Speaker 1: through alcome part you're in Ontario. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's different because you have so many people to carry
Speaker 1: so many different things. Right, well, this is just me, Right,
Speaker 1: how do I itemize what I'm gonna bring in that
Speaker 1: sort of thing? Um? Well, and I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: tent wise and talk about tents tents where sometimes weight
Speaker 1: gets unwieldy. Um. I carry the the stone Glacier sky
Speaker 1: air ult It's just basically a you know, a nice
Speaker 1: little tar if you put your try to use this
Speaker 1: wrecking poles tent poles you tied down to the ground.
Speaker 1: It's it's a nice shelter. It sounds like the time
Speaker 1: of usually be going. You're not gonna be looking at
Speaker 1: a bunch of snow or any you know, you just
Speaker 1: be looking to get out of the wind, to get
Speaker 1: out of the elements, and and that this thing. Only
Speaker 1: ways I've been looking up here, only ways ten point
Speaker 1: three ounces and that's that's a huge that's a huge deal.
Speaker 1: So if you're only going for three days, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's that's a big sometimes a big weight, a big
Speaker 1: weight issue. So anything else he anni as we as
Speaker 1: we uh give Brandon all the confidence in the world
Speaker 1: to get going here. No, man, I think more than anything,
Speaker 1: you just got to go out there and uh experience
Speaker 1: it and um you know you'll you'll learn from doing.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's no substitute for that. So good
Speaker 1: luck out there, man Um. I hope you do get
Speaker 1: a get a big one. But I would strongly consider man.
Speaker 1: I know it's it's coming down to the wire and
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to buy a thousand bucks worth of
Speaker 1: gear right before you go. But man if I was
Speaker 1: going to archery whitetail hunting, just knowing how spooky those
Speaker 1: buggers are, and how tough it is hunting them on
Speaker 1: the ground, you might consider getting yourself into one of
Speaker 1: them tree saddles. Um, I've been shooting out of one
Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, and boy am I excited about
Speaker 1: using it this fall. Well, they just it looks so
Speaker 1: much more convenient, Like, I mean, we all love a
Speaker 1: tree then, but I mean, at the same time, it's
Speaker 1: not like I'm about to go carry a ground blind
Speaker 1: in there with me. So I mean that thing is
Speaker 1: so it's so easy to pack around. It looks like
Speaker 1: like the pack I've got. I've got a badland, which
Speaker 1: because I read a bunch about it and then I
Speaker 1: immediately saw one come up on like the next day. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys talked to you down there,
Speaker 1: it's like we don't. That's all I want to use
Speaker 1: it once. So it's like a hundred bucks. Yeah, between
Speaker 1: between that and the kilometers, we have no idea what
Speaker 1: you're saying. Man, so confused complete Greek? Yeah, well yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I made used to pick one of those
Speaker 1: up and I was just like score. So I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, I man, you gotta try to
Speaker 1: explain to the life like, Hey, so I saved all
Speaker 1: this money on the bed, which means I get to
Speaker 1: spend this much text on everything else right now. Well,
Speaker 1: cubic inch pack, Brandon, Um, you're gonna be tight man,
Speaker 1: I've done I usually. I used to have that pack,
Speaker 1: and I did an overnight once in that pack, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know I made it work. But boy, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to pack light buddy, real life. It looked big.
Speaker 1: And when I was picking it up, line and stuff
Speaker 1: up to putt and I was like, oh, I may
Speaker 1: have may have overestimated this. Yeah for sure. Hey, quick
Speaker 1: question for you. Um, since you're a professional car deal
Speaker 1: wheeler and dealer, I'm looking at it, can you give
Speaker 1: me like a hot tip for making sure I get
Speaker 1: a good deal? Yeah, I mean at least this. So here,
Speaker 1: here's what I do. If I get somebody's really grinding
Speaker 1: me down on price, I asked them what I'm allowed
Speaker 1: to make? You know, what do I gotta do? Everybody
Speaker 1: wants to brkness, everybody wants to put a day together.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to lose money. So if I was you,
Speaker 1: I'd say, is that a thing? Interruption? Brandon? But is
Speaker 1: that a thing. Does anybody actually ever sell a car
Speaker 1: and lose money? Yeah? Really yes, and you guys just
Speaker 1: make it up on another vehicle, that's right. Yeah, And sometimes,
Speaker 1: I mean it depends to if you if you look
Speaker 1: at it. If you're working at a franchise dealer, you
Speaker 1: know you want to sometimes you wanna get somebody, say,
Speaker 1: somebody's stopping out of town. So say if I if
Speaker 1: I work for a forward store and I've got somebody
Speaker 1: who I know lives in my town and they bring
Speaker 1: me a quote from another town's board dealer, right, it's
Speaker 1: actually more detrimental to my business to have more vehicles
Speaker 1: running around with another story sticker on it because they think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that store has given a great deal. So it's so
Speaker 1: great that people don't want to shop at the local
Speaker 1: Ford store. Right. So if if I have a chance
Speaker 1: to keep somebody business in town, I might take a
Speaker 1: dump on that deal, just you know, because if you
Speaker 1: get it back in service, or maybe they'll buy a
Speaker 1: warranty too, and that might help your break even or
Speaker 1: or something. You've got to kind of trust your staff
Speaker 1: that way. But yeah, it happens. It happens more than
Speaker 1: you think. To um, I mean a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've in three years of sales and I've
Speaker 1: taken plenty of deals that I shouldn't have, and I
Speaker 1: mean it all really comes down to when someone's business
Speaker 1: is more valuable. I mean, if somebody comes from three
Speaker 1: hours away and they say, oh, you know my local
Speaker 1: dealer is doing this, Okay, we'll go there, I'm never
Speaker 1: gonna see you again. You know you're not gonna come
Speaker 1: spend money here to get your truck six and you've
Speaker 1: probably not going to come back for your next vehicle.
Speaker 1: So yeah, all right, So what's the what's the hot tip?
Speaker 1: What's the hot tip? When I'm wheeling and dealing, I
Speaker 1: would say, if you can, if you can really nail
Speaker 1: down what kind of truck you're looking for before you
Speaker 1: had through, I've got to nail down to to like
Speaker 1: mileage year, everything I'm going to use. I'm going for
Speaker 1: an old truck because I'm a I just love my
Speaker 1: UH two thousands have O two Tundra, and I'm trying
Speaker 1: to buy an O six Tundra, which is the last
Speaker 1: year that they made that body style. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: find with less than a hun less than a hundred
Speaker 1: thousand miles. I want the crew cab needs to be
Speaker 1: forward drive. I don't care what color it is. If
Speaker 1: it has a top runic great, If not, I'll find
Speaker 1: one um, but that's it. You know, I'd rather not
Speaker 1: have a limited version. I mean, leather is nice, but
Speaker 1: all the other bells and whistles I could care less.
Speaker 1: Four And I don't need those running boards that I
Speaker 1: feel like they're just gonna get beat up in the woods.
Speaker 1: But I know exactly what I'm looking for. And you're
Speaker 1: you're a tall guy. You're a tall guy. You don't
Speaker 1: need running boards. See I have a seventeen Silverado and
Speaker 1: I'm like five ft nothing, So I yeah, it really
Speaker 1: sucks not having But if I would do, if you can,
Speaker 1: if you can land land yourself on a particular unit,
Speaker 1: you know, say that Jim's Used Cars down the street
Speaker 1: has your exact Tundra that you know you want, just
Speaker 1: walk in. Save the guy at the time, just say hey,
Speaker 1: I'll buy this right now if you give it to
Speaker 1: me for five bucks overcast you know, and you know
Speaker 1: a hell oftentimes I mean at least me personally. If
Speaker 1: somebody does that and say, yeah, I know this is
Speaker 1: a truck I want, I'm going to buy it? Yes, right,
Speaker 1: because now he's got an offer. It's a lot easier
Speaker 1: to work with an offer. But how do you how
Speaker 1: do I know what cost is for that guy? So
Speaker 1: it depends on how he bought it. The chances are
Speaker 1: most people and at least this is up here most
Speaker 1: used cards. You're looking at the market. So he should
Speaker 1: bring you back that sticker price. Mine is two grand
Speaker 1: question that you might be able to jam them for
Speaker 1: a little bit more. And I mean find out if
Speaker 1: but like you know, if they sell a warranty, maybe
Speaker 1: say you know, I I'm sitar and going with an
Speaker 1: extended warrant. You what can you tell me about that?
Speaker 1: Give me a chance to sell you on something else. Right,
Speaker 1: they're gonna they'll they'll sell you. They'll sell you the
Speaker 1: truck at a lower profit, just hoping that you're going
Speaker 1: to make it up in the in the financial services office.
Speaker 1: Where did you do that or not? Doesn't not, It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to get to the PRIs on the truck.
Speaker 1: This might be the most useful segment of THHC of
Speaker 1: all time. I was just I was just thinking the
Speaker 1: same thing. I don't even need a truck and I'm
Speaker 1: about to go buy I'm afraid. I'm afraid for Breedon's life,
Speaker 1: like he's gonna get taken out by like this like
Speaker 1: a shadow cabal, because for divulging all these secrets, these secrets.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, and who's the who's the guy that who's
Speaker 1: the guy that got got taken out over the morale recipe?
Speaker 1: Yeah you're that guy. Well, thanks, Brandon, Man, I might
Speaker 1: be um, I might be even test driving one this afternoon,
Speaker 1: So I'll apply what you've taught me and uh, let
Speaker 1: you know how it goes. We'll report back on the
Speaker 1: next asked the Eagle. Segment there, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1: Let me know, let me know what close on Instagram.
Speaker 1: I'll get the message right on. Well, hey man, good
Speaker 1: luck all your hunt and thanks for calling. Thanks guys,
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for the opportunity to you know,
Speaker 1: actually talk to you guys that really appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: I wish you well. I wish you will in your
Speaker 1: truck purchase, Johnny, and uh so I wish you walked
Speaker 1: on your first Thank you so much. All right, man, Thanks,
Speaker 1: we'll talk to you soon. Good luck out there, alright,
Speaker 1: asked the Eagle, number one down in the books, done
Speaker 1: one of many. I hope that helps. Is it Brandon
Speaker 1: or Brandon brand Man? I kept calling him Brandon? I hope,
Speaker 1: I hope that helps. And sorry, sorry for the name
Speaker 1: that you took over my station of calling people the
Speaker 1: wrong name consistently people at email into the show, Johnny
Speaker 1: now just put out of the phonetic the phonetic version
Speaker 1: of their name besides their last name, because I can
Speaker 1: never get it right. It could be Smith, and I'll
Speaker 1: be like smithe, it doesn't really matter. Um. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep rolling on as the Eagle, you know.
Speaker 1: I hope hopefully you guys got a little bit out
Speaker 1: of that. If you're going on a back hunter, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's white tails, doesn't matter if
Speaker 1: it's elk, there's always that how do you pack? How
Speaker 1: do you you know? What do you do? Um? And
Speaker 1: so we'll I like those questions that are a layered.
Speaker 1: That one had a lot of layers to it. Yohnnie
Speaker 1: talked about that for days, for days and days. All right,
Speaker 1: Well we're gonna get into We're gonna switch gears here,
Speaker 1: We're gonna get into the great and powerful the legendary
Speaker 1: doctor Valarious Geist. I had Dr Hilarious Geist on probably
Speaker 1: a year you know, a little bit less than a
Speaker 1: year ago. Last, I believe his last October phil if
Speaker 1: if I remember directly, sounds about right. Um, And we
Speaker 1: went through everything. We weren't really prepared for him last time.
Speaker 1: We literally went over to an unglick conference that was
Speaker 1: at a hotel across from our office and begged him
Speaker 1: to come over and sit down with me, and then
Speaker 1: it went. It was like three magical hours and I
Speaker 1: wasn't sure what happened in those hours. Um. So now
Speaker 1: he's back and and we definitely want to talk about
Speaker 1: last time. He talked about predator pits, a lot about predation.
Speaker 1: He has some controversial within the within the wildlife biology
Speaker 1: and management world, at least the modern world. He has
Speaker 1: what I think are some controversial opinions. But we talked
Speaker 1: through those and we got him to a point where, um,
Speaker 1: he was speaking about what he believes to be um
Speaker 1: intelligent intervention and something that conservation really needs to understand
Speaker 1: a little bit more. So I will just say before
Speaker 1: we get into this, I have to issue an apology,
Speaker 1: a pre apology, because I feel like my interviewing skills
Speaker 1: were way off on this one. I did my best
Speaker 1: to shepherd through, but it's hard to be on the
Speaker 1: phone and Valarious just has so much in there that
Speaker 1: he wants to get out, and so we will do
Speaker 1: our I'll do better next time, Johnnie. I promise I'm
Speaker 1: gonna drink more element and be more hydrated. I think
Speaker 1: more clearly. I promise I'll do better next time. But anyway,
Speaker 1: don't let that dampen your enjoyment of Dr Vlarious Guys.
Speaker 1: Dr Guys, welcome back to the show. Sir, thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm moving forward to this yeah, very much. So. Uh first,
Speaker 1: I guess we should start by just saying, um, I
Speaker 1: hope everything's going well. And co OVID, how are you
Speaker 1: over there on on Vancouver Island. We're doing very well.
Speaker 1: The island is virtually COVID free. I just think we
Speaker 1: haven't had a case for a little while. But we're
Speaker 1: an island and I am living off in the Boonies,
Speaker 1: very far away from everybody else, so I'm very safe
Speaker 1: and I'm treating this as a big vacation. What are
Speaker 1: you doing on your vacation? I know you told me
Speaker 1: the other day you were salmon fishing. What what I
Speaker 1: wish I could be vacation with you my vacation. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm now eighty two years old and I'm working on
Speaker 1: a very big consuming evolution that's a heck of a
Speaker 1: lot of funk, and I've been working at that for
Speaker 1: almost two decades. It's called Condemned to Art and Insanity
Speaker 1: our natural History. I don't know if we'll ever see
Speaker 1: the light of day, because at two years of age,
Speaker 1: it's rather difficult for so when that bloody thing gets published.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm on that and working on all sorts
Speaker 1: of problems pertaining to wolf predation and wolf survival. And
Speaker 1: I've got several things in press and have also published
Speaker 1: the things. I'd be rather busy, so that's good to
Speaker 1: hear that you're busy. Tell me a little about the
Speaker 1: human evolution studies and kind of the core of that.
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to talk about that, but I'm very
Speaker 1: interested in the topic. Well, I published my first book
Speaker 1: on human evolution forty three years ago, Condemned to Art,
Speaker 1: and I retained an interest in human evolution because as
Speaker 1: a program director for environmental science at the University of Calgary,
Speaker 1: I was trying to find something that would unite in
Speaker 1: my lectures, something useful for engineers, for architects, for urban urbanists,
Speaker 1: for industrial designers, and so on to forth. And I
Speaker 1: thought the best thing I could speak about is how
Speaker 1: to maximize health environmentally. So I started looking into humans,
Speaker 1: and I realized that evolutionary history has something to do
Speaker 1: with our current health status, etcetera. And the natural result
Speaker 1: was that I wrote a rather lengthy book which is
Speaker 1: entitled Life Strategies, Human Evolution, Environmental Design Towards the Biological
Speaker 1: Theory of Health in nineteen seventy eight. The interesting thing
Speaker 1: about it was this was an interdisciplinary piece of work.
Speaker 1: In other words, I went sideways into different disciplines in
Speaker 1: order to link things that were significant. And there were
Speaker 1: nineteen reviewers of that book, and eighteen of them wrote
Speaker 1: that they could not review it because it was too broad.
Speaker 1: It went so far beyond their own reading that they
Speaker 1: could not judge the scholarly validity of it, although it
Speaker 1: looked okay. So what happened was that the Springer Press,
Speaker 1: which finally published it, um started calling other scientists that
Speaker 1: do something about me and asked them about my reputation, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And on that basis they published the book that tells
Speaker 1: you something about the reviewing process. Yeah, we'ren't publishing here too,
Speaker 1: So I absolutely no old publishing. But do you feel like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, as we move forward as is a conservation
Speaker 1: community in the hunting community, do you feel like there's
Speaker 1: enough out there on these subjects of our connection with
Speaker 1: human evolution? You know, as as it's very much you have. Indeed,
Speaker 1: because like it or not, we're an oxymoron. We're meat
Speaker 1: eating vegetarians basically. In other ways, our evolutionary history unfolds
Speaker 1: very much like that of other large vegetari mammals that
Speaker 1: feed on vegetation primarily. In other ways, we're very similar
Speaker 1: in our evolutionary pattern to deer, to elephants, to horses
Speaker 1: and so forth, and not at all like primates. We
Speaker 1: differed tremendously from primates, but at the same time, we
Speaker 1: differ also tremendously from prime It's because we have had
Speaker 1: a long, long history of eating meat, and that is deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply ingrained in our physiology. So UM, as I said,
Speaker 1: we are an oxymoron, we are a meat eating vegetarian.
Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. I knew we
Speaker 1: were axiomaronic. I just didn't didn't think of it in
Speaker 1: that way. So we we display axiomoronic characteristics in lots
Speaker 1: of ways, I think. But do you as you look
Speaker 1: at where we are? You know, I know you said, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're in your eighties, you're over there on Vancouver Island,
Speaker 1: but you're still working, You're still thinking about critically about
Speaker 1: you know, the conservation, hunting, fishing community. Um, where do
Speaker 1: you think we are today? I mean you've seen, you know,
Speaker 1: you've seen. We're in a very distressing situation at the
Speaker 1: present time, and that is because a rather malignant environmental
Speaker 1: movement has become politically dominant and is ruling the roost
Speaker 1: at the present time. The really wonderful system of North
Speaker 1: americ and wildlife conservation could not have existed, incidentally, except
Speaker 1: by the virtue that you had exterminated wolves in the
Speaker 1: Lord forty eight. We are now learning that if you
Speaker 1: have uncontrolled wolf populations, you basically decimate while that to
Speaker 1: such an extent that hunting is indeed a questionable activity
Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, I want to That's one thing
Speaker 1: that as we've we've gone through since last time we
Speaker 1: talked we've We've talked to a lot of folks who
Speaker 1: both I think agree and disagree with you on on
Speaker 1: wolves specifically. Well, it's not agreeing or disagreeing. There are
Speaker 1: certain facts. And let me allow a little bit to
Speaker 1: open up on what I've been doing lately, because I've
Speaker 1: got several things. For instance, I am right now writing
Speaker 1: a paper with a Russian um ecologists who is probably
Speaker 1: the greatest ecologists on Siberian matters, um and Lenny Baskin
Speaker 1: in Moscow. Uh, what we are seeing is in Siberia
Speaker 1: and in northern Canada and also in parts of Alaska,
Speaker 1: very large areas they are almost depleted of wildlife that
Speaker 1: there's simply biological deserts or and we've been trying to
Speaker 1: find out what was the reason behind it. So it's
Speaker 1: a lengthy piece of work in which my colleague and
Speaker 1: I are in total agreement on and it turns out
Speaker 1: to be that the primary cause is a combination of
Speaker 1: wolves and grizzly beare predation. You see, wolves in under
Speaker 1: normal circumstances were a rather rare animal because they were
Speaker 1: controlled by large caps. Basically, we can still see some
Speaker 1: of that today if you go to Manchuria, whatever. There
Speaker 1: is our Siberian tigers that are virtually no wolves. And
Speaker 1: the tong goose, which honored the tiger greatly in the past,
Speaker 1: made sure there were lots of tigers around because that
Speaker 1: means there were no wolves and there was wild that
Speaker 1: available for them. But if you destroy the tiger, wolves
Speaker 1: come back. And while that virtue disappears completely, now you
Speaker 1: have an indifference. In an interesting situation, wherever you have
Speaker 1: large cats like tigers like the girl forest lion, like
Speaker 1: leopards like snow leopards and so on, you have no
Speaker 1: wolves at all, or so very few in the North
Speaker 1: that they're considered endangered. You see. So what happened in
Speaker 1: price to see extinctions is that the big cats here
Speaker 1: on this continent died out. We used to have lions here,
Speaker 1: We used to have saber tooth cats, we had scimitar
Speaker 1: cats here, and even before that, we had Siberian tigers,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, in Alaska, and wolves are relatively
Speaker 1: rare animals in the fossil record, and what it shows
Speaker 1: is that once they the natural enemies of wolves are removed,
Speaker 1: they are a very very destructive element, and together with
Speaker 1: grizzly bears even more so because grizzly bears are superlative
Speaker 1: at killing neonate, that is, baby baby elk, baby caribou,
Speaker 1: baby moose, and so ons the forth. And some beautiful
Speaker 1: studies have been made of this in Alaska where they
Speaker 1: instrumented bears with with cameras and so they were able
Speaker 1: to follow the visually what the bear was doing over
Speaker 1: a month's time for thirty days. Well, it turns out
Speaker 1: that their champion killed about fifty caribou caps at that
Speaker 1: time point, and the one that killed least of all
Speaker 1: in twenty seven days killed only seven, you see, And
Speaker 1: that raises the question how many did that particular that
Speaker 1: a champion grizzly bear killed before he was instrumented, and
Speaker 1: how many did he did he kill after he was instrumented.
Speaker 1: So what basically we are saying is that when you
Speaker 1: have a combination of wolves and grizzly bears, you generate
Speaker 1: a biological desert which stays that way, there's very very
Speaker 1: few ungular available, and the grizzly bears do well because
Speaker 1: the vegetation is still available. Wolves do very poorly under
Speaker 1: those circumstances. They eventually virtually vanished completely that the grizzly
Speaker 1: bear is able to keep the populations of hunger it's
Speaker 1: extremely low by being able to hunt extensively during the
Speaker 1: time when they're giving birth and that combination. But by
Speaker 1: the way, this is not exactly news. The Alaska Department
Speaker 1: Fishing Game has come up with something very similar to that.
Speaker 1: Where do you when you think about wolves? And I
Speaker 1: know last time we talked, we talked about things like
Speaker 1: I'd added disease and predator pits and some of these
Speaker 1: other issues that you've brought up in some of your
Speaker 1: talks and some of your writings before and after UM
Speaker 1: and then we also I also visited Yellowster National Park
Speaker 1: and also a hunt in an area here in Montana
Speaker 1: where I got a trail camp picture of a wolf
Speaker 1: not three weeks ago. Have heard them, Yeah, I've heard them.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's that a pretty rare thing. I come
Speaker 1: to well, wolves are relatively hard to find, very hard
Speaker 1: to see, very hard to hunt. I've shot a few
Speaker 1: myself and I've dealt with them. And let's uh, of course,
Speaker 1: they are, in from one perspective, a magnificent animal, particularly
Speaker 1: the ones that I saw during my studies of mountain
Speaker 1: sheep in Northern Bridge, Columbia. They were giants, absolutely giants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that is very appealing. But when you look at
Speaker 1: the disruptions that we have caused in the global ecology. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what we have done, it's basically unleashed here a predator
Speaker 1: that is extremely efficient because it was so severely suppressed
Speaker 1: in earlier times by the large cats. Basically that's why
Speaker 1: this wolf is able to reproduce at a very high rate.
Speaker 1: This is why they're so very efficient in their hunting.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just simply what we have forgotten in
Speaker 1: our wolf man in and so far is the word ecology.
Speaker 1: What we have to do is to look at all
Speaker 1: the components of the ecosystem and manage them and not
Speaker 1: simply do as the environmentalists now do have total protection
Speaker 1: of wolves, or have total protection of grizzly bass. That
Speaker 1: is a disaster as well as we think about that
Speaker 1: in the Greater Yellows and ecosystem, I said, I went
Speaker 1: to Yellows National Park with a with a biologist protor
Speaker 1: biologists say, a month ago and we track the mountain lion.
Speaker 1: This mountain lion had killed seventeen um meal deer and
Speaker 1: elk about fifteen elk um to mostly neonates and then
Speaker 1: to meal there a couple of adults thrown in there.
Speaker 1: It's extremely efficient. Yeah. Yeah, And and as we're talking
Speaker 1: about this, I still find that this and this is
Speaker 1: why I wanted to talk to you again because I
Speaker 1: know that you know there are some divergent views here,
Speaker 1: but but I want to make sure that we kind
Speaker 1: of get to the center point of of where do
Speaker 1: we really think wolves fit in? Because the biologists that
Speaker 1: I talked to as we went through this, his appreciation
Speaker 1: for wolves on the landscape was was absolute. And so
Speaker 1: that's that's what I took away from it. I want
Speaker 1: to speak for him as well. There is whether there's
Speaker 1: something missing in this, and that is the following. Um.
Speaker 1: The number of elk before the wolves were released in
Speaker 1: Yellowstone in the northern Hood was about nine five hundreds,
Speaker 1: uh the the total number where it came down to
Speaker 1: around four to five thousand. But the most important thing
Speaker 1: is missing in this statement, namely, about three quarters of
Speaker 1: those elk moved out onto private land where they were
Speaker 1: protected from wolves. Now, the words Yellowstone is a very
Speaker 1: poor example because here predation cannot go to the extreme
Speaker 1: limit because the wolves because the elk are able to
Speaker 1: take rect huge on private land. Well, yellow Stone is
Speaker 1: the very interesting example, and I'm very glad you've introduced
Speaker 1: wolves there, believe me or not. And that may sound odd,
Speaker 1: but yes, indeed, because this is a time for us
Speaker 1: to learn and to learn thoroughly about what is going
Speaker 1: on and to take consequent steps. And I must say
Speaker 1: that the Alaska Fish and Game Department has gone to
Speaker 1: the full length of it. They basically recognized, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: we have in Alaska last areas in which wolves and
Speaker 1: grizzly bears keep the moose and caribou at a very
Speaker 1: very low level. But that doesn't really matter because there's
Speaker 1: no people there where we require caribou and moose. Because
Speaker 1: people are there, we can't control both of those predators,
Speaker 1: and we do, and that's exactly what they're doing. And
Speaker 1: by the way, I better tell you something else, which
Speaker 1: is rather cute. I've been looking at human evolution, as
Speaker 1: you are aware of, and I noticed that UM particularly
Speaker 1: focus my attention on the colonization of Europe by modern
Speaker 1: people and the decline and extinction of neanderthal Man that
Speaker 1: happened thereafter. But there was something that became rather odd,
Speaker 1: namely that the geneticists were saying that with the entry
Speaker 1: of human beings into Europe, the wolves went into a
Speaker 1: genetic bottleneck, and that always means that they were very,
Speaker 1: very severely reduced in number. And what happened next was
Speaker 1: I found from from another paper that the size of
Speaker 1: the wolves after human beings modern people entered Europe became
Speaker 1: very large. They increased in the dimensioned by at least
Speaker 1: ten percent, which means they virtually doubled in weight. Wow.
Speaker 1: So if you reduce wolves and you have an increase
Speaker 1: in giant is um well that's what I experienced in
Speaker 1: the past. The at the same time, I'm the human
Speaker 1: population uh increased by about tenfolds two maybe fifteen fold
Speaker 1: or more compared to the Neanderthal population. So you have
Speaker 1: here an interesting set of circumstances. The human population becomes
Speaker 1: very very large, and all they're living on is primarily reindeer.
Speaker 1: The bones we find is franger bones. They also eat mammoth,
Speaker 1: They want to eat horses and bison occasionally, but most
Speaker 1: of their food comes from the reindeer. So what the
Speaker 1: logical logical explanation is that these modern human beings forty
Speaker 1: tho years ago came into the landscape occupied by Neanderthals.
Speaker 1: And the difference they made was they went after the
Speaker 1: wolves and controlled them. And the way they controlled them
Speaker 1: was of course the first we can guess about that,
Speaker 1: because the universal way to control wolves is to go
Speaker 1: after the wolves dens and destroy them. And but at
Speaker 1: the same time, these early modern people in Europe began
Speaker 1: had a cult of um associating with lions, and something
Speaker 1: rather interesting followed. I began to look around, what is
Speaker 1: the relationship of large cats with human beings? And I
Speaker 1: just told you the tung goos in Manchuria loved the
Speaker 1: tiger because they kept the wolves down. And in Africa
Speaker 1: we discovered that wherever there are hunting dogs and woo
Speaker 1: and lions, lions love to ambush hunting dogs, kill them,
Speaker 1: carry them around like trophies, but don't eat them. And
Speaker 1: then there was a very interesting study which is documented
Speaker 1: and deposited in Washington with this Newsonian Institute. And this
Speaker 1: was a study there which is now impossible to do
Speaker 1: because the circumstances have changed. Where cool bushman in the
Speaker 1: Kalahari Desert lived around a war, the whole together with
Speaker 1: the pride of lions and humans and lions got along
Speaker 1: completely well. There was no predation on the lions, there
Speaker 1: was no killing by humans, there was a mutual respect relationship.
Speaker 1: When the anthropologists first arrived on the scene, the lions
Speaker 1: were roaring. Didn't like it, apparently, and they discovered the
Speaker 1: following morning that there were pug marks around every single
Speaker 1: sleeping bag of the anthropologists. They showed they filmed an
Speaker 1: interesting situation in which the kung had wounded and disabled
Speaker 1: a wilder least with poisoned arrows, and by the time
Speaker 1: they arrived at the wilderbeast, it was surrounded by lions. Well,
Speaker 1: the hunters went in with their spears, killed the wilde beast,
Speaker 1: talked to the lions, dismembered the wilderbeast, and walked away
Speaker 1: with the wildebeest, and the lions did nothing. So what
Speaker 1: we're having here is the first hint of how human
Speaker 1: beings made use of predators, which was court later undone
Speaker 1: when we already the gravitition, which is still modern people
Speaker 1: thirty thousand years ago. So in Europe they began taming
Speaker 1: wolves into dogs, and then subsequently to that we've had
Speaker 1: falconry where we've made use of a predator to our end,
Speaker 1: and we've also tamed cheetahs in order to make them
Speaker 1: superlative hunters of gazelles and antelope. The most astonishing example
Speaker 1: from came from Australia, and there are two books written
Speaker 1: about this, is where killer whales cooperated with fishermen in
Speaker 1: the hunting of belleen whales and even helped the fishermen
Speaker 1: tow the dead whale towards shore. And the reward for
Speaker 1: the killer whales was they got the lips and the
Speaker 1: tongue of the baleen whales. So we have here predators
Speaker 1: and humans cooperating. And I have aggested and it's been
Speaker 1: published in English already and it's right now in publication.
Speaker 1: And women that in the upper in the Upper Pliolithic,
Speaker 1: early Upper Polytics, these first people in Europe, the organzations
Speaker 1: made use of lions. Uh. Actually, it doesn't take much
Speaker 1: to find out how you could make use of lions.
Speaker 1: If lions ambush wolves, then human beings can help them
Speaker 1: with the ambush. All we have to do is imitate
Speaker 1: the howling of wolves. So you're saying lions, lions and
Speaker 1: humans work together. Yeah, exactly just like in the Colahari Desert,
Speaker 1: lions and humans were together and the humans said, the
Speaker 1: lions are protecting us at night from predators, from panthers
Speaker 1: and from hyenas. I have never set up in this
Speaker 1: episode institution. Yeah, well, you know, we haven't looked at
Speaker 1: that angle. We've always thought of wolves and lions and
Speaker 1: predators in the negative sense, but we've also used them
Speaker 1: in a very positive sense. And the net result of
Speaker 1: that is that wonderful creation that we made out of
Speaker 1: the wolf the dog. Yeah, the two at all. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got a little one looking at me right now,
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be and I'm so glad she's not
Speaker 1: the wolf. The irony, I love it. Um Well, you
Speaker 1: see this is ironic. But this is what happens when
Speaker 1: you do some homework. And this is what we need
Speaker 1: and what we cannot have in the but we do
Speaker 1: have in modern society. But anybody with or without any
Speaker 1: background is shouting off on social media, and how do
Speaker 1: you tell the difference. Yeah, well that's what that's what
Speaker 1: really what I'm trying to do. Um As I said,
Speaker 1: I'm a layman. I I am count myself a conservationist.
Speaker 1: I now live in a place where I'm among these
Speaker 1: charismatic predators, and I appreciate them on both the levels
Speaker 1: we we kind of touched on earlier. And there, as
Speaker 1: you said, there is this complicated history where we obviously
Speaker 1: you know, worked with them, and then you know at
Speaker 1: the time in the turn of the century, we were
Speaker 1: vilifying them everything from kind reifying them a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot earlier because wolves without control, yeah, were a
Speaker 1: scourge of the land. And some of the best modern
Speaker 1: scholarship and this comes from out of France, where they
Speaker 1: had in record, now, in detailed record, over ten thousand
Speaker 1: cases where wolves attacked human beings and uh soa is
Speaker 1: the name of the professor that's leading this work. In
Speaker 1: an interview, he said that if the documentation in France
Speaker 1: were not so badly damaged by wars, because so much
Speaker 1: of the documentation was in churches, for instance, many of
Speaker 1: them were burned down during the many, many wars that
Speaker 1: the Europeans had there, he was sure that they would
Speaker 1: have a documentation of over a hundred thousand, ten times
Speaker 1: what they have today. So the we have also excellent
Speaker 1: documentation right across the globe. Whatever wolves and human beings
Speaker 1: have come together. The only way that we could exist
Speaker 1: is by very very stringent control of wolves. And one
Speaker 1: of the most interesting things is Japan. The Japanese um
Speaker 1: farmers eulogized wolves because they were the only way they
Speaker 1: had to reduce the damage to their fields. You see. Uh,
Speaker 1: the Japanese disarmed their citizens, and so the farmers had
Speaker 1: no weapons and they could not kill and hunt wolves
Speaker 1: or part of me. They could not have pigs and
Speaker 1: deer which were ravaging their fields. So what they did
Speaker 1: is they attracted wolves, and they eulogized wolves to the
Speaker 1: point of making them a deity. So that was a
Speaker 1: very very positive outlook of human beings towards wolves because
Speaker 1: they were helping them to maintaining their crops. And then
Speaker 1: then came brabies. Now rabies is a horrible disease, absolutely
Speaker 1: incredible when it strikes. Yeah, and what did the Japanese do.
Speaker 1: By nineteen o five, they had exterminated the wolf. You see,
Speaker 1: you don't have to exterminate anything. When I was in
Speaker 1: the Northern Bridge, Columbia, we had unbelievable wild of the populations,
Speaker 1: but we also had wolves, and we do not have wolves.
Speaker 1: When you allow so called nature to take its uh course,
Speaker 1: and you allow wolves and grizzly best to multiply because
Speaker 1: eventually virtually have only grizzly Best and then a very
Speaker 1: very very few wolves and a very very few ungulates
Speaker 1: in that system. And it is for all practically while
Speaker 1: that that's unusable by human beings. You know, bring it
Speaker 1: even back to to our relationship with predators, specifically wolves
Speaker 1: and every other apex predator that we've talked about carnivore
Speaker 1: that we've talked about. There there is you know, just
Speaker 1: by all the stories that you've told and all the
Speaker 1: readings that you've done, and the vast analogy of the
Speaker 1: natural history of this continent and in the world, that
Speaker 1: we are just left with this very complex, very interesting
Speaker 1: that's why we talk about it here, so much, very
Speaker 1: interesting relationship with these animals. You know, what do you
Speaker 1: think we should be doing in North America when it
Speaker 1: comes to but I think we should be doing is
Speaker 1: maximizing by diversity and maximizing productivity on the land so
Speaker 1: that people can take advantage of that. And there is
Speaker 1: absolutely no reason why we should not have wolves, okay,
Speaker 1: or mountain lines. But what you have to do is
Speaker 1: you have to have a system of controls that makes
Speaker 1: that ensures that everything is alive and well, and we
Speaker 1: had that in the past when I was the youngest zoologist. Well,
Speaker 1: the first day I went deer hunting, I saw twenty
Speaker 1: six deer. I missed eight bucks because I was then
Speaker 1: not very skilled at running shots. I had the wrong
Speaker 1: image in that and I killed my five point buck.
Speaker 1: The next day. You've seen when I shot my first
Speaker 1: and last, very very large bull moose on December twenty
Speaker 1: three in Wealth Great Park, I was lying on top
Speaker 1: of a snow corners looking down the slope onto a
Speaker 1: bar large burn and my friend was my away with
Speaker 1: the spotting scope. While looking towards me, he counted thirty
Speaker 1: six mouths on that slope. Well, this is almost unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Today we were seeing at that time thirty bull moose
Speaker 1: a day, and there were wolves in that countryside. We
Speaker 1: heard them and saw them too. We are perfectly capable
Speaker 1: of maintaining a great while they've been great abundance and
Speaker 1: diversity with all the large predators included the grizzly bear,
Speaker 1: the black bear, the cougar, the wolves. We can have
Speaker 1: them all, but we cannot have a single species so
Speaker 1: called protection is UM, which protects grizzly bears at all costs,
Speaker 1: which protects wolves at all costs. Then you get into
Speaker 1: the president of situation. That's when you get the wildlife deserts,
Speaker 1: and that is when Native people suffered because they don't
Speaker 1: have anything to hunt. I think it's a very important
Speaker 1: that you know, as we go through. We talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about Colorado. I touched on that. I mean,
Speaker 1: they are about to in this November vote on Initiative
Speaker 1: one oh seven, which will effectively reintroduced wolves into Colorado.
Speaker 1: It isn't a very very stupid thing to do. Should
Speaker 1: again to show you that, And so I want to
Speaker 1: kind of there's a coalition of of of these nonprofit
Speaker 1: protectionist groups as you as you say in Colorado that
Speaker 1: they were led by UM, the Foreign Rocky Mountain Wolf Project.
Speaker 1: They spent nineteen They tiresly gathered support. You could see
Speaker 1: them on on sides of the road. There's pictures of them.
Speaker 1: They got two d THO signatures and they delivered that
Speaker 1: delivered that the Secretary of State. So these are people
Speaker 1: that don't be of costs of that introduction. It's the
Speaker 1: ranchers to do, and it's the huntless. We the Democrats
Speaker 1: or Republicans that also do You're gonna you cannot, you
Speaker 1: cannot maintain your North American system wilt conservation with the
Speaker 1: free for all for wolves and grizzly bears. You can't possible.
Speaker 1: What do you what do you say to those people?
Speaker 1: If if you're right, if you let's just say, you
Speaker 1: run into one of these guys on the street, it's
Speaker 1: hold the sign. With this protectionism for wolves, we need
Speaker 1: more wolves for this state to be wild. Put it
Speaker 1: this way. I have been writing a book on human evolution.
Speaker 1: I guess I told you the title Condemned to Art
Speaker 1: and Insanity. Yeah, I guess your I guess very Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well this is and these are belief systems. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are people believing in good faith that protecting the
Speaker 1: wolves will be in nirvana. Well this isn't r Vanna.
Speaker 1: It's an empty landscape, and it is so empty that
Speaker 1: even the small disappears. I know that because I've had
Speaker 1: here on Mancover Island and living it right now. All
Speaker 1: the deer are basically in the cities. Some of the
Speaker 1: elk have been able to maintain themselves more or less,
Speaker 1: but the elk here are giants because there are a
Speaker 1: few numbers compared to them out of food, and they're silent.
Speaker 1: They don't call, and they don't bugle, because if you bogle,
Speaker 1: you get on top of yourself's wolves and cougars and bears.
Speaker 1: And I have eat bugled in black bears myself. At
Speaker 1: the same time, look at the same thing. What we've
Speaker 1: done now with the marine environment, total protection of whales, seals,
Speaker 1: sea lions and so on, has resulted in very large
Speaker 1: burgeoning populations of seals and sea lions. A kayaker just
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago told me he was quite amazed.
Speaker 1: He came to a with his kayak to the entrance
Speaker 1: of a small creek into the ocean, and this was
Speaker 1: all surrounded by seals which were busily picking up all
Speaker 1: the little salmon that were coming downstream into the ocean. Gone,
Speaker 1: when I was a young students at Juis of Bridge, Columbia,
Speaker 1: we had still a control of seals, very large amounts
Speaker 1: of salmon and salmon populations everywhere of faltering. Well if
Speaker 1: you don't, if you have predators that feed steadily on salmon,
Speaker 1: what do you expect. In other ways, we can enter
Speaker 1: as a regulatory agency and we can ensure that everybody survives,
Speaker 1: including the prey. We have the means to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sustainable use of a natural resource. When you speak out
Speaker 1: like this on wolves that people feel feel so passionate
Speaker 1: about them and protecting them and seeing more of them
Speaker 1: on landscapes, do you feel like people aren't listening? Do
Speaker 1: you feel like people I don't want to hear. No,
Speaker 1: I know people are, people are listening. The bit of
Speaker 1: the problem is, of course, the your news services. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess they are afraid that there subcription rates will
Speaker 1: tumble the report something that is not exactly in the
Speaker 1: right now. Environmentalism is a very very popular notion and
Speaker 1: the great dream of some of the environmentalists is to
Speaker 1: see what they call wilderness around across everything, with human
Speaker 1: beings confined to very small spaces and so that nature
Speaker 1: could once again range supreme or much of the land.
Speaker 1: That's part of their dreams I see, and what it
Speaker 1: means is, uh, well to achieve that. I don't know
Speaker 1: how you could possibly have any number of people without
Speaker 1: the use of the land in the economic activities. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a very very simplistic ideas. But these kind of
Speaker 1: ideas or the the Another thing is the promotion that
Speaker 1: the human beings are evil and that nature is good,
Speaker 1: and so if we constrain humans, we do something very
Speaker 1: good for nature. Well, the trouble, of course, is that
Speaker 1: you haven't had anything natural now for twelve thousand years
Speaker 1: on this continent when you look around the countryside. This
Speaker 1: is all secondarily consequences of human activity. Your native your
Speaker 1: native Colorado, your native North America vanished with the Little
Speaker 1: Ice Age top thousand years ago period. Well, we've seen
Speaker 1: this with with the COVID N teen pandemic. We've seen
Speaker 1: when you try to confine people to their homes there
Speaker 1: naturally want to go outside. They naturally want to enjoy
Speaker 1: place wonderful and and I'm all in fable, I also
Speaker 1: want to go outside. And in fact, I'm living on
Speaker 1: a very beautiful place away from the city. I'm surrounded
Speaker 1: by nature all the time. I have uh, I've had
Speaker 1: wolves here under my doorstep and cougar's on my doorstep.
Speaker 1: We don't have grizzly bears here, God thanks, but we
Speaker 1: do have black bears. And yes, I can enjoy all
Speaker 1: of it. But we have too many hugs at the
Speaker 1: present time, and so the number of rights of blacktail
Speaker 1: dealers way way way down everywhere except in cities where
Speaker 1: they've taken refuge from Hollywood. That's what do you find
Speaker 1: some of the most biggest bucks on Vancouver Island right
Speaker 1: downtown and it's a yeah, what a beautiful what a
Speaker 1: beautiful island as well. But yeah, go back to go
Speaker 1: back to the pandemic issue, because it's kind of rayed
Speaker 1: some interesting points that that you're discussing here. We've seen
Speaker 1: national parks, we've seen state parks, we've seen wilderness areas,
Speaker 1: especially in Canada, but across the United States, and you know,
Speaker 1: there are reports out of Alberta and Quebec of you know,
Speaker 1: human feces and garbage and people camping in ditches and
Speaker 1: hundreds of cars and parking lots when when folks were
Speaker 1: locked down and they couldn't travel to other provinces or states,
Speaker 1: they simply retreated to to these places that we you know,
Speaker 1: these ecosystems, these fragile environments that we try to manage
Speaker 1: and keep His pristine as we can, and it's caused
Speaker 1: lots of problems and so there's an interesting discussion there
Speaker 1: is to as to your point earlier, Um, you know
Speaker 1: what's bad and what's good here, and what's what's what's
Speaker 1: real and you know what's fake in terms of what
Speaker 1: you're being told. Well, the COVID situation is going to pass.
Speaker 1: It's not going to take. It's not We still have
Speaker 1: some while to deal with it, but it will pass
Speaker 1: and we are going to get back to normality eventually.
Speaker 1: And we also have to face something very unhappy, and
Speaker 1: that is before the COVID christis struck, we were already
Speaker 1: aware that our national parks, particularly in your country, we're
Speaker 1: losing bio diversity, and that is that it loss about
Speaker 1: diversity means that plants and animals are going extinct, and
Speaker 1: that you had a free for all in these parks
Speaker 1: for invasive species, of which according to the website of
Speaker 1: the United States National Parks, there were over six thousand,
Speaker 1: five hundred species. So irrespect of the COVID, we have
Speaker 1: a very real problem about a philosophy of non intervention
Speaker 1: in nature. As long as we do non intervention, other
Speaker 1: things intervened. And the only way to literally safeguard biodiversity
Speaker 1: and maintained a live species which are going extinct is
Speaker 1: by human very intelligent interference. I have a friend in
Speaker 1: California who about thirty years ago bought acres of land
Speaker 1: on which she counted sixties species of plants. Then he
Speaker 1: began to change the landscape in the sense that he
Speaker 1: was trying to get back by diversity and bring to
Speaker 1: light and to fruition seed which were lying dormant in
Speaker 1: the soil. And after thirty years he has two hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty five native species of plants and hundred and
Speaker 1: thirty five non native species of plants. That's what human
Speaker 1: intelligent human intervention means, whereas non intervention means the simply
Speaker 1: the decline and extinction of many of our sensitive species,
Speaker 1: reduction by diversity and take over by invasive species. That's
Speaker 1: what we have faced. Our idea of letting hands often,
Speaker 1: letting nature do its thing is a catastrophic failure. Not entirely,
Speaker 1: there are really times when you need to do it,
Speaker 1: but as a unifying philosophy of dealing with nature, it
Speaker 1: simply means that we allow other species, undesirable species many regards,
Speaker 1: take over the landscape. In order to maintain beauty and
Speaker 1: by the city, we have to come in and manage
Speaker 1: with fire, with an axe, with a rifle and shotgun
Speaker 1: and net and the times poisons. We have to do
Speaker 1: that and then we can maintain what is well. The
Speaker 1: French said it quite correctly, said, if you want to
Speaker 1: have a beautiful park, you need a very sharp axe
Speaker 1: and the heart of stone. Yeah, then you're gonna have
Speaker 1: a beautiful park. Yeah. Well, if if folks listening I
Speaker 1: didn't just hear that, rewind and listen to it again,
Speaker 1: because that's about it is, wonderfully stated. I've heard about
Speaker 1: how we can as humans cohabitate and balance the world
Speaker 1: in which we live, because that's well, we have to
Speaker 1: do it, and we have to do it intelligently, and
Speaker 1: we can do it. That's the whole point. Yes, protection
Speaker 1: ism that's brought back whales and a lot of marine life.
Speaker 1: And now we have to judge how much protection is
Speaker 1: required to generate and what protection is required and what
Speaker 1: actions are required to enhance different species so that we
Speaker 1: do have high bio diversity. We can do it. We
Speaker 1: have the means to do it, and when we have
Speaker 1: a question, we can always have an experimental setting and explore.
Speaker 1: What we cannot do is to have faith that nature
Speaker 1: is going to somehow maintained by a diversity and duty,
Speaker 1: which doesn't well, I want to I think all of
Speaker 1: this connects to your book with Shane Mahoney, the North
Speaker 1: American Model of Wildlife Conservation. And I'll just tell you.
Speaker 1: I know we talked about this a bit last time
Speaker 1: you were in the studio, but the North American model
Speaker 1: of conservation is something that i've i've we speak about
Speaker 1: often on this show that i've I've really think you should. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, it is, UM And you know, and I
Speaker 1: know your book talks about the strength and its weaknesses
Speaker 1: and in in in great way and we wanted to
Speaker 1: UM for a long time on the show, have a
Speaker 1: book club and talk about some of these really important issues.
Speaker 1: And the Northern a model is something that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people understand, but a lot of people misunderstand,
Speaker 1: and even more people have no idea about how it
Speaker 1: came to be or what it is or what it's
Speaker 1: meant to do. UM. And I think this book that
Speaker 1: you've put together with with Shane, if everyone I asked
Speaker 1: everyone to read it about two months ago. I said,
Speaker 1: get this book and read it and then we're going
Speaker 1: to talk to dr guys about it. So if you
Speaker 1: if you'll allow us. Well, I would like to just
Speaker 1: go through it a little bit and discuss some of
Speaker 1: what's in there, and then you know, discuss what well.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit. Yes, I'm the core I editor
Speaker 1: of it and the author of one of the chapters
Speaker 1: of it, and I haven't looked at it for some
Speaker 1: time because I've been so very very busy with other matters,
Speaker 1: particularly on the human front. Because as I said, I'm
Speaker 1: editing now my book condemned to author insanity. I've picked
Speaker 1: twenty years on it. So that's I've been busy, and
Speaker 1: I'm busy other things. So, um, I may be u
Speaker 1: um faulted from remembering too well, let's try it. Let's
Speaker 1: let's give it a try. I think I think most
Speaker 1: of the things in here are elementary to all your work.
Speaker 1: So I imagine if you don't remember the exact sens,
Speaker 1: you'll you'll understand some of the questions and things that. Okay,
Speaker 1: I wanted to go through. Let's let's give it a
Speaker 1: shot here. Um, the book, you know, in talking about
Speaker 1: the model, the book does a lot of things, but
Speaker 1: I think in general, it looks at the model's strength weaknesses,
Speaker 1: and it considers, you know, it's relevancy and efficacy and
Speaker 1: all the things that it touches because it does touch history, politics, culture,
Speaker 1: societies and so yeah, because before we have specific questions here,
Speaker 1: when you think about the model today, what do you
Speaker 1: think of? Well, the model is basically a model that
Speaker 1: assumes that the greater population of the nation has access
Speaker 1: to wildlife and we'll use this wildlife in the consumptive fashion.
Speaker 1: In other way, it's not only do we enjoy it
Speaker 1: a life, we also enjoy it on our dinner table.
Speaker 1: That is the basis of it. It makes the assumption
Speaker 1: that going out and raising wildlife for human consumption is
Speaker 1: a good thing, and that's what it was in the past.
Speaker 1: As long as that philosophy is relevant, as long as
Speaker 1: that model will survive. But it cannot survive protectionism and
Speaker 1: it fails. Yes, well, when we when you when we
Speaker 1: start with this book, we start about you know this,
Speaker 1: This book goes all over time, um, but it talks
Speaker 1: about this revolutionary approach that in the late nineteenth century
Speaker 1: and early twentieth century Canada, United States came together and
Speaker 1: rather than treating wildlife for the purview of the elites,
Speaker 1: is to be used for the benefit of the pleasure.
Speaker 1: We're we're now switching this dichotomy and we're saying it's
Speaker 1: we're going use this for the people. That's correct. And
Speaker 1: that is the remarkable thing about the North American model.
Speaker 1: That's why it is so outstanding a model, you know,
Speaker 1: because what it shows that the common ownership of wildlife
Speaker 1: can be of an enormous benefit to a nation, whereas
Speaker 1: previously it was assumed that if you had a comments
Speaker 1: that comments would deteriorate because everybody had access to it
Speaker 1: and destroyed it in part. And there is a large,
Speaker 1: very famous, not large for very famous paper, the Tragedy
Speaker 1: of the Comments, which was written about it, remember in
Speaker 1: his moment the author. But the proof of the North
Speaker 1: American model is that you can have ownership of land
Speaker 1: and wild land in common, and it can be constructive
Speaker 1: and it can be a thing of beauty and productivity
Speaker 1: and of generating great wealth at the same time. It's
Speaker 1: a real blessing there really is. I mean, it shows
Speaker 1: it's such a value system as much as is a
Speaker 1: system of conservation and those things that you explained or intertwined, well,
Speaker 1: just imagine the number of people that are employed because
Speaker 1: of that model, and just think of the tremendous innovations
Speaker 1: that you have generated in archery, for instance. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable how things have changed, and that has given
Speaker 1: livelihoods to quite a few people. The same thing with
Speaker 1: the firearms or the clothing or the other equipment that
Speaker 1: has to to be used. It is a tremendous boost
Speaker 1: to the economy to have wildlife. If the violet that
Speaker 1: is being used by the public at large, but it
Speaker 1: has to be used, not just simply simply you look
Speaker 1: at it's something you use. Yeah, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: as you as we You know that agreement, the agreement
Speaker 1: you talked about in the beginning, and you know it's
Speaker 1: talked about in the book quite a lot, the agreement
Speaker 1: that we're we're going forward this understanding that we are
Speaker 1: going to both conserve and use um these resources at
Speaker 1: the same time. And that's where the balance comes in.
Speaker 1: Um it's core to this and that I think that
Speaker 1: present and that ain't the North American model. It kind
Speaker 1: of gives us a vision and for me, a hopeful
Speaker 1: vision of the kind of the challenges of the future
Speaker 1: for conservation. And the book helps with that too. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I'm you see I also have to go back
Speaker 1: a little bit to a time when the use of
Speaker 1: weapons was looked at in a different way than this today.
Speaker 1: And you had it in the You had it in
Speaker 1: your rural areas where the kids took the twenty two
Speaker 1: to school and they did their hunting on the way
Speaker 1: back around the way to school, and they brought things
Speaker 1: to on the for the family table. I did that
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager in Canada. Yeah, and my
Speaker 1: grandmother and I had a wonderful relationship precisely because I
Speaker 1: was able to bring in game and fish and it
Speaker 1: was so greatly treasured and valued by the family. I'm
Speaker 1: thinking right now of some of our native people in
Speaker 1: Northern Canada that are faced without wildlife. What do the
Speaker 1: kids do if you cannot go out and get yourself
Speaker 1: a rabbit or some ducks and geese and so once
Speaker 1: of forth, if you find an empty landscape, what do
Speaker 1: you do? Do you smell gasoline? Or do you go
Speaker 1: and commit suicide? That's exactly what the kids were doing.
Speaker 1: You see. Wow, So there is a greater good to
Speaker 1: have wild left around. We are hunters, We are by nature,
Speaker 1: as I stated beginning, an oxymoron, a meat eating vegetarian,
Speaker 1: but we are that. And as long as we maintained
Speaker 1: that in a reasonable fashion, you have a world of
Speaker 1: great beauty and diversity. And we can have that all,
Speaker 1: we can enjoy it, but we cannot have most sort
Speaker 1: of single idea um preservationists attempt dealing with nature that
Speaker 1: leads to disaster. And in the book to you, as
Speaker 1: we've as we've discussed here that it almost seems like
Speaker 1: derivative of any discussion like this, that we're going to
Speaker 1: delve into the past UM. And in the second chapter
Speaker 1: of this book, he starts to ask questions like why
Speaker 1: look at a history of our humanity in these species?
Speaker 1: Why look at um the place to see? Why look
Speaker 1: at Neanderthals? Why look at um the first predation of humans?
Speaker 1: And talk about that these ideas of why we asked
Speaker 1: that question, and what we can learn from our history UM,
Speaker 1: and how that the first is a very cautionally lesson,
Speaker 1: and that is that human beings and nature have been
Speaker 1: um in a very unhappy coexistence for about two and
Speaker 1: a half billion years. The very very first humans that
Speaker 1: came about, we're already hunters, and I can descry to
Speaker 1: you what what they were. But the point was that
Speaker 1: the moment they showed up, the biodiversity of the continent
Speaker 1: of Africa went downhill and continue to go downhill. And
Speaker 1: it went downhill because eventually we exterminated the megafauna as well,
Speaker 1: and we now are in a situation where we are
Speaker 1: desperately trying to understand how human populations can possibly survive.
Speaker 1: So history is something that teaches us to be very
Speaker 1: very cautious about what we do with nature. We can't.
Speaker 1: We know that we can make nature bloom, and we
Speaker 1: have to do that, but much of the time we've
Speaker 1: been a negative force. And this is where the environment
Speaker 1: that is sitting quite correct about it. So that and
Speaker 1: then comes to the point is how did we go
Speaker 1: and interact with nature? And how was it possible that
Speaker 1: human beings were able to flourish in the first place,
Speaker 1: Because human beings are the only primate that can stay
Speaker 1: at night on the ground surrounded by large predators and
Speaker 1: does not have to climb a tree at night. All
Speaker 1: other primates have to climb trees. We're the only ones
Speaker 1: who don't. So here you're right away are into an
Speaker 1: interesting question what the dickens did we do? Because previously
Speaker 1: to that, we were a prey of many predators, and
Speaker 1: when predators get a taste of human meat today, they
Speaker 1: absolutely continue going after it. Human beings, apparently are the
Speaker 1: cannibals are stating that there is no meat like human meat.
Speaker 1: It's the very best there is, and the predaceous lions
Speaker 1: and tigers and leopards in the past have verified that
Speaker 1: as well. So there's a big, big question, which is
Speaker 1: intellectual and interesting question, what did we do to survive
Speaker 1: at night surrounded by large predators without weapons of the
Speaker 1: kind that we have today. So this is one of
Speaker 1: the first things that I have to crack, and you
Speaker 1: can read in my book how we did it. We
Speaker 1: get to the point as we moved to history where
Speaker 1: we start to after the American you know, the police
Speaker 1: in a wild American frontier. The book talks a lot
Speaker 1: about what factors led to kind of the emergence of
Speaker 1: the I don't know if you would call the enlightenment
Speaker 1: of the conservation rise at the turn of the century,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, you see, you've put a finger
Speaker 1: on the right thing. Our conservations have to be very
Speaker 1: keenly aware of what happened after Columbus came to North
Speaker 1: America and because what happened was something honorable happened there
Speaker 1: somewhere between fifty six and twenty million people were destroyed
Speaker 1: by European diseases. Before that destruction, we have some idea
Speaker 1: what wildlife was like in North America through the eyes
Speaker 1: of the early Spanish explorers, and they tell us there
Speaker 1: wasn't a wildlife. There was an It was a continent
Speaker 1: overpopulated by human beings. It as a continent continuously manipulated
Speaker 1: by by by fires set by human beings very effectively.
Speaker 1: So uh, the Eastern hardwood forest was actually a man
Speaker 1: made nut garden. That's how powerful influence we exerted. Then
Speaker 1: came this uh, terrible mortality of native people, which already
Speaker 1: began with the Desato expedition in fifteen thirty nine. And
Speaker 1: the natives realized while the expedition was in progress that
Speaker 1: they were in danger, just getting even close to white
Speaker 1: and they fled, but they didn't save them. In the
Speaker 1: last end, our diseases followed them through. So between fifty
Speaker 1: millions and a hundred fifty six million minimal and hundred
Speaker 1: twenty million people died, and you all of a sudden
Speaker 1: had a continent that was virtually free of people, and
Speaker 1: wildlife took over in the burgeoning fashion in the six
Speaker 1: ndred and that's what we saw, That's what Daniel Boone
Speaker 1: saw when he comes down, an abundance of wildlife, passenger
Speaker 1: pigeons darkening the sky. You see cads and Devaka or
Speaker 1: de Soto never saw a single passenger pigeon. Passenger pigeons
Speaker 1: came into this massive existence once the nut gardens and
Speaker 1: the fruit trees were no longer being harvested. The human beings,
Speaker 1: after all, twenty millions were dead. So the wildlife then
Speaker 1: took over. And that is what environmentalists are seeing and
Speaker 1: not recognizing that this is an artifact. This is at
Speaker 1: the artifact of European exploitation of the continent in itself.
Speaker 1: So these burgeoning number of buffaloes, well, there is some
Speaker 1: indication that in the center of the continent buffaloes were
Speaker 1: um fairly abundant and were able to withstand the hunting
Speaker 1: pressure that was put on them. But so there's a
Speaker 1: lot more history to be uncovered, I can assure you that.
Speaker 1: But the modern situation is the consequence of very very
Speaker 1: severe happenings after Columbus Lands in North America and the
Speaker 1: idea that North America was a beautiful, untouched wilderness occupied
Speaker 1: by a few native people is simply wrong. It didn't exist. Well,
Speaker 1: then you get to it, so you know, would it
Speaker 1: be correct in your mind? And saying that hundreds of
Speaker 1: years of this understanding of our true impact on this
Speaker 1: kind it led to this, this enlightenment in in the
Speaker 1: early nine hundreds and then leaning up into well the enlightenment.
Speaker 1: Enlightenment came when people of wealth began to notice how
Speaker 1: the wildlife was vanishing, when they started noticing that there
Speaker 1: were more more feathers in the hats of ladies on
Speaker 1: Wall Street then there were in down to the Everglades. Uh.
Speaker 1: The destruction of the American buffalo was of course also
Speaker 1: something that became very very uh noticeable, and it became
Speaker 1: a factor in information of such organizations as the Boone
Speaker 1: conquer the croct Club, and I think it was six
Speaker 1: and you had your great President Teddy Roosevelt involved. Uh.
Speaker 1: What happened was the your North American system of wilder
Speaker 1: of conservation arose in opposition to this enormous destruction of
Speaker 1: while that that took place in the nineteenth century. In
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, parton me. Yeah. I mean, then you
Speaker 1: talk about some of the most in the book in
Speaker 1: chapter three you talk a lot about some of the
Speaker 1: most important pieces of legislation, some of the national parks
Speaker 1: and national forests and in in you know that really
Speaker 1: from nineteen o one all the way up till nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty five one, President frank and by the way, make
Speaker 1: sure that this was a co oppositive effort in North
Speaker 1: America between Canada and the United States. And the most
Speaker 1: amazing thing is that Canada, which was a loyal, loyal
Speaker 1: colony of Great prison did not accept the way of
Speaker 1: wild that was managed in Great Britain, but joined hands
Speaker 1: with fellow Americans in the United States to generate jointly
Speaker 1: a continental system of wilder conservation. That's what we have.
Speaker 1: It's not a U S system, it's not a Canadian
Speaker 1: It's a joint international system that covers North America. That's
Speaker 1: the glory of it. Yeah. It shows how human beings
Speaker 1: and when they want to can come together to create
Speaker 1: something useful, something beautiful, something of great importance. We can
Speaker 1: do it. And when you first you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's an important time is how when you first sat
Speaker 1: down to try to articulate what you knew to be
Speaker 1: this model. I was very interested in game branching and
Speaker 1: I held the conference in ninety one in which I
Speaker 1: invited game branches from all across the world to attend,
Speaker 1: and they attended. We had a wonderful get together, and
Speaker 1: after I was preparing the treaties, looking at all the
Speaker 1: papers and all the consequences, suddenly dawned on the Oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is not the way to proceed. And
Speaker 1: when game farming became very popular with my colleagues in
Speaker 1: the Canadian Wildlife Service, I was at one point castigating
Speaker 1: them for their support for that, and I stated that
Speaker 1: if you continue this path of promoting game farming, you're
Speaker 1: going to destroy your system of wildlfe conservation. And two
Speaker 1: senior um members of the Canadian Wilderve Service, men that
Speaker 1: have worked all their life with wildlife and we're about retired,
Speaker 1: shot back at me and said what system. We do
Speaker 1: not have a system of wild of conservation. And I said,
Speaker 1: you bloody well do have a system world of conservation,
Speaker 1: and I'll write it down to you, and I did
Speaker 1: you see. I am by background European, and I was
Speaker 1: raised in the lore of the German hunting system. So
Speaker 1: I knew very very well what the European system did
Speaker 1: and did not do, and that is what I based
Speaker 1: my my construct of the North American model on. If
Speaker 1: you take the seven pillars of the North American system
Speaker 1: and reversed them hundred eighty degrees, you have the central
Speaker 1: European system of wildlerf management. You see, I did not
Speaker 1: write a history of the North American system. I stated
Speaker 1: this is what it is, and it was. I've published
Speaker 1: in total twenty three papers and book chapters on it eventually,
Speaker 1: and it grew somewhat in model UM paper dealing with
Speaker 1: North American system is the one that has ultimately used
Speaker 1: as the definitive system for it. If it hadn't been
Speaker 1: for Shane Mahoney and Joan Organ and others, it would
Speaker 1: not have survived because the wild that Wild NFE society
Speaker 1: was very much opposed to what I had written, and
Speaker 1: I was blackmailed from conferences and oh some interesting things happened.
Speaker 1: I was vilified, and eventually, eventually saying their minds took
Speaker 1: over and they realized that you had really quite an
Speaker 1: astonishing the unique system while the conservation and now we're
Speaker 1: celebrating its God, thanks. But there was an initial there
Speaker 1: was initial opposition to it. I can assure you that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I remember I remember talking about that last time,
Speaker 1: and I and I remember understanding, especially from Shane in
Speaker 1: our conversation as well, that this needed to be championed.
Speaker 1: Oh it did. And he and nobody can articulately better
Speaker 1: than Shane Mahoney. He's a maul speaker and he's also
Speaker 1: the poets pretty speaking. I admire very much his competence.
Speaker 1: He's a great man. Yeah, And it's for me as
Speaker 1: I read this, As I read this book, I think
Speaker 1: about an American model. It's strange to me that it
Speaker 1: would need to be championed. It's something we had already
Speaker 1: kind of. It is something that you should be very
Speaker 1: proud of as North Americans. This is a unique system
Speaker 1: and it works, that's the point. And it is produced
Speaker 1: wildlife in abundance. And what it has done is you
Speaker 1: can take a landscape and make it beautiful and productive
Speaker 1: that system and the public participates in it. It's not
Speaker 1: a system that is based on the elite as such. No,
Speaker 1: it's a system that is open to the public as
Speaker 1: a whole. Anybody can participate and they do. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a couple of key questions that Rosie Cooney writes
Speaker 1: on at the end of the book. I wanted to
Speaker 1: discuss with you. One of the first questions is really simple,
Speaker 1: although it's discussed in detail and the book is really simple.
Speaker 1: Who owns wildlife? And I think that's a key to
Speaker 1: to where we are the model. Well, of course it
Speaker 1: is the key to it. And violnife is in the
Speaker 1: public domain. You and I, as citizens of Canada and
Speaker 1: the United States, owned the wildlife of Canada and the
Speaker 1: United States. And that is something that you don't find
Speaker 1: in Europe because wildlife is tied to the ownership of land. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is is that how common in your experience
Speaker 1: is that globally? I know, very very common, very common.
Speaker 1: That is that was that was their root system of concer.
Speaker 1: People that had huge landholdings were able to conserve wildlife,
Speaker 1: and they did by the way, and people destroyed wildlife notoriously.
Speaker 1: So one of the lessons from history is when wildlife
Speaker 1: is in the ownership of the elite and there is
Speaker 1: a revolution, the first thing that gets destroyed is wildlife.
Speaker 1: That happened the French Revolution, that happened in eighty eight
Speaker 1: in with the German Revolution. That happened again in nineteen
Speaker 1: forty seven in India when India managed to get free
Speaker 1: from a great person and became independent of that people
Speaker 1: turned on violent which is completely destroyed well in the book,
Speaker 1: Dr Cooney writes about it. You know, wildlife is a
Speaker 1: fugitive resource, meaning animals don't care if you if you
Speaker 1: if you make arbitrary borders, or if you own this
Speaker 1: or that, animals just do not care, and they don't care.
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, that has been problematic in some ways,
Speaker 1: but in our model it's been illustrative of lots of points.
Speaker 1: But then you you look at a place like South
Speaker 1: Africa where where you have these animals are put in
Speaker 1: a fence, and then that property owner owns that this
Speaker 1: happens in as long as the situation exists, as it
Speaker 1: does today. Yet yet you have much of the land
Speaker 1: in South Africa is still under the control of flights,
Speaker 1: and they're doing a perfectly good job of wind of conservation,
Speaker 1: factibility of job, wile of conservation. When I have discussed
Speaker 1: it with them, I've asked, I've turned around and said,
Speaker 1: what will happen to wildlife when every citizen of South
Speaker 1: Africa is able to go into a shop and buy
Speaker 1: himself at twelve gate shotgun in the third ye old
Speaker 1: six rifle and a forty five color pistol. What will
Speaker 1: happen to was that then, you see in the United
Speaker 1: States you can do that. We can go into a
Speaker 1: shop and you can arm yourself, no problem. That's part
Speaker 1: of your constitution and just part of the the expectation you
Speaker 1: have a In fact, wildlife had at one time in
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, I counted it, wildlife was outnumbered by
Speaker 1: guns in private ownership about eight to nine to one.
Speaker 1: He with this enormous armament in North America, wildlife was thriving.
Speaker 1: And I asked my asked my colleagues. Then in what
Speaker 1: will happen? But there was no discussion at that point
Speaker 1: because the frightening possibility was that there would be a
Speaker 1: total takeover of a private land in South Africa and
Speaker 1: there would be a total decimation of wildlife as a consequence.
Speaker 1: So today's situation in the Maybia, today's situation in Africa
Speaker 1: is a fragile one. Three cheers that it's holding out
Speaker 1: for the time being, but for the future, I'm not
Speaker 1: optimistic in North America. I am optimistic, and I've been
Speaker 1: known to write in one paper that the very last
Speaker 1: elephant on the earth will survive on the King Ranch
Speaker 1: in Texas. What I think, You're right, and it's such
Speaker 1: we have such a strange, such a strange dichotomy there.
Speaker 1: I lived in Texas and I often when I when
Speaker 1: I read that part of this book, and this is
Speaker 1: in the last chapter I'm going through, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: many parts of Texas don't abide by this North American
Speaker 1: model that we've so well, you know, that we've developed.
Speaker 1: They do in part, and they in part don't, but
Speaker 1: in part they do because Texas Wildlife Texas is still
Speaker 1: being managed by the state with authority to do certain things.
Speaker 1: And I'm quite a fan of some of the things
Speaker 1: that I've seen on Texas ranches that I'm doing, some
Speaker 1: very very good management is taking place on that very
Speaker 1: good management. The beauty of the United States is and
Speaker 1: that you have a diversity of ownerships, so that while
Speaker 1: we have wildlife entirely in the public domain, also wildlife
Speaker 1: which is coexisting with private ownership and is doing extremely well.
Speaker 1: Do you do you feel like this is this is
Speaker 1: what you mentioned earlier that I thought was so profound
Speaker 1: to me that that intelligent intervention just taking shape in
Speaker 1: different ways, and even though it may every once in
Speaker 1: a while, what you just said, intelligent intervention, that's what
Speaker 1: it's all about. We can have intelligent intervention and then
Speaker 1: we have wildlife and predators, and we have biodiversity, and
Speaker 1: we have beauty. We have the whole shamak, but it
Speaker 1: needs intelligent intervention. Is there some intelligent intervention that kind
Speaker 1: of goes against the model? No, don't. The model is
Speaker 1: in fact an interventionist model completely and entirely. It assumes
Speaker 1: that our wildlife is publicly owned, that we have agencies
Speaker 1: that are managing in the public interest, that these agencies
Speaker 1: are guided by science and history and scholarship and so on,
Speaker 1: and that wildlife is so important that we consider it
Speaker 1: as a public resource that we must maintain. When do
Speaker 1: you have a total protectionist policy, nobody gives damn about it.
Speaker 1: And while let's deterior rates. That's also a lesson from
Speaker 1: the national parks. As as we move on, there's another
Speaker 1: really important question here that I think that everybody listened
Speaker 1: to this podcast, I know UM wants to know more
Speaker 1: about and thinks about this quite often. What is what
Speaker 1: exactly in your mind is the role of hunting, and
Speaker 1: you know if you can encapsulate it in the model, well,
Speaker 1: the role of hunting is vital because on one hand,
Speaker 1: the role of hunting makes sure that there is a
Speaker 1: segment of the population passionately involved with wildlife, which is
Speaker 1: very interested to maintain wildlife, which gladly um sacrifice on
Speaker 1: behalf of wildlife. And at the same time wildlife is
Speaker 1: then being used for food by humans and the very
Speaker 1: very best meat in the world comes from wildlife. There's
Speaker 1: no if on babies about that. Yeah, m hm. And
Speaker 1: so what you have then is a public support of wildlife,
Speaker 1: and it wildlife has the future because everybody looks forward
Speaker 1: to seeing wildlife next fall and going out and hunting
Speaker 1: next fall and being able to eat it. And by
Speaker 1: the way, and just some statistics are important. At the minimum,
Speaker 1: the wolf in Yellowstone takes down sixteen elk a year.
Speaker 1: That's the winter meat of sixteen families. Have you seen
Speaker 1: Can you imagine twenty two elk or twenty four elk
Speaker 1: standing on the in the meadow, on the lawn in
Speaker 1: front of your house. Yeah, that's what wolf killed when
Speaker 1: things are good. Yeah, Well, like I said, we've I've
Speaker 1: seen anyst enormous Yeah, I've seen those things go off
Speaker 1: in areas where I have hunted, where wolves come through
Speaker 1: and and everything gets on their feet, everything is disturbed
Speaker 1: and it just changes everything and I eat it. And
Speaker 1: at the same time, we do have an obligation to
Speaker 1: conserve wolves, no tways about it. I have seen and
Speaker 1: I've lived in the system where wolves were doing well,
Speaker 1: where while that was doing well, where hunters were doing well,
Speaker 1: and we thought we were having a marvelous place which
Speaker 1: we have to conserve because we thought that was natural,
Speaker 1: it wasn't well. And then there's some you know, I'm
Speaker 1: glad to hear you say there's some there's an obligatory
Speaker 1: nature to it rather than an emotional nature to you know,
Speaker 1: we have to we have to see these things as
Speaker 1: an obligation, right, something that we have to look after everything.
Speaker 1: And the more diverse the natural system is, the greater
Speaker 1: are the opportunities for some unpopular animals to exist, something
Speaker 1: like the rattlesnakes. Yeah, not very popular, but there's a
Speaker 1: place for them in nature. And if you protect um
Speaker 1: landscapes so that the big fellows can exist. All the
Speaker 1: little ones will be there. So this is what you
Speaker 1: have done in North Americas to simply demonstrate that with
Speaker 1: the public ownership of wildlife, you can create by diversity,
Speaker 1: you can create productivity, you can create beauty, you can
Speaker 1: create a great employment and as economically, it's a wonderful model.
Speaker 1: But it depends on the utilization of Last night, I
Speaker 1: think to to to wrap things up. I mean, we
Speaker 1: could go on for so long about this, this book,
Speaker 1: and I think we we asked our our listeners to
Speaker 1: write in and and review the book and then and
Speaker 1: ask some questions um, and so hopefully yeah we have.
Speaker 1: I I read through dozens of these and I picked
Speaker 1: one from Cody tilt out of Wyoming, and Cody had
Speaker 1: one he had a question. But in his review of
Speaker 1: the book, he said he said this, He said, I
Speaker 1: feel like I never quite knew the breath and depth
Speaker 1: of my experiences outside. I never knew hunting um until
Speaker 1: I read this book. I could really understand the complex
Speaker 1: nature of what I was taking part in. And I
Speaker 1: can't wait to share this with my friends and family
Speaker 1: and every one that that asked me questionable. So that
Speaker 1: was part of his he wrote a long email, but
Speaker 1: that was part of his email and his questions. He
Speaker 1: wrote a lot of questions, but I think one of
Speaker 1: his questions was I think something I know that you
Speaker 1: thought of. It's discussed in this book. He puts it
Speaker 1: well and it's very simply. You know what is going
Speaker 1: to happen in the future to this model. What needs
Speaker 1: to change to keep it going? Well, what needs to
Speaker 1: change is keep it going is we have to get
Speaker 1: some sanity back into an and to our environmentalism. We
Speaker 1: have to get away from the extremes extremes of you
Speaker 1: protect this, you protect that, and you tried to get
Speaker 1: back to nature, and so for you have to realize
Speaker 1: that what was natural is long gone. We now have
Speaker 1: the obligation to look after nature. That's our obligation, and
Speaker 1: our obligation is to maintain every piece of nature we
Speaker 1: must have obtained by the versit t And the best
Speaker 1: way to maintain biodiversity is to have as much of
Speaker 1: the public involved with while that as possible. And when
Speaker 1: you have a public that is looking forward to the
Speaker 1: hunting season, I mean there is such a thing as
Speaker 1: a Swedish illness in Sweden. Yeah, that's when the men
Speaker 1: disappeared hunting moose. That's a Swedish illness. And when you
Speaker 1: have that kind of appreciation, you are going to have
Speaker 1: exactly that what the model has done in the past,
Speaker 1: which is now being destroyed by I think a rather
Speaker 1: ill informed and malignant environmentalism, and that is the over
Speaker 1: protection of predators or protection of landscapes. We have to
Speaker 1: realize that we have the obligation to manage, to manage intelligently,
Speaker 1: and the model has shown the way. How yeah, I
Speaker 1: think there's no better place to end because as I
Speaker 1: search for you know, we have the certain flash points
Speaker 1: and we discussed them here. We discussed uh, you know,
Speaker 1: charismatic megaphone and predators and there's certain like flashpoints that,
Speaker 1: oh boy, you should get into how Neanderthal hunted. You know,
Speaker 1: you are a hunter and you take it for granted
Speaker 1: that you go out and take a weapon and you start.
Speaker 1: Neanderthal was a super predator that was nocturnal. He hunted
Speaker 1: at night. He had big, big eyes, bigger than your
Speaker 1: own mind. He had a brain that was larger than mind,
Speaker 1: and but it was not large in the front. It
Speaker 1: was large in the basement parts. That's where vision is located.
Speaker 1: In the brain and other ways. The parts of the
Speaker 1: brain that support vision were huge in neander top absolutely huge,
Speaker 1: and they Neanderthal hunters men and women suffered own breakages
Speaker 1: and the bone breakages resembled that of cow rodeo cowboys.
Speaker 1: And what they were killing primarily were very hairy beasts,
Speaker 1: beasts that you could hang onto when you put your
Speaker 1: hand into it. Yeah, basically there were two hunters involved
Speaker 1: in the killing of a large hairy beast. Uh, the
Speaker 1: one who hung onto the beast to distract it and
Speaker 1: the other one who killed it with the spear of
Speaker 1: very sophisticated design. I mean, history is a lot of fun,
Speaker 1: and here we have a hunter that survived for about
Speaker 1: four thousand years. Eventually they died out for various reasons,
Speaker 1: but I found them quite fascinating. This is why it's
Speaker 1: interesting to go into the history of human beings. Human
Speaker 1: beings have been incredible, absolutely incredible, And just as incredible
Speaker 1: is really our system of wild of conservation when you
Speaker 1: think about it globally, because it's so unique. But by
Speaker 1: the way, the Russians for a while tried to get it,
Speaker 1: but the oligarchy went out and they didn't get it.
Speaker 1: But I had several of my papers translated into Russian
Speaker 1: and published at that time. Point. It's too bad. But
Speaker 1: our model is still and it is unique. In another sense,
Speaker 1: it can only be done in an armed society. Our
Speaker 1: model cannot be transferred to China because the Chinese do
Speaker 1: not allow arms to the citizens. We're living in a
Speaker 1: on the continent in which we have so much trust
Speaker 1: in each other that we allow each other to be armed.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's wonderful, Yeah, I mean what you said.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when I'm talking to you, I feel
Speaker 1: like in the need end with all myself because there's
Speaker 1: so I feel like we could have these conversations for
Speaker 1: three or four hours every single time. We'd probably do
Speaker 1: it weekly. UM, You've you've read so much, to study
Speaker 1: so much. We will, We definitely will. But I just
Speaker 1: want to say that, you know again, I know we
Speaker 1: said this last time when you're here, but I appreciate
Speaker 1: your willingness to come and talk with us, and your
Speaker 1: willingness to well, really to commit your whole life to
Speaker 1: these ideas that are so important to my generation, the
Speaker 1: next generation. UM, and I think it's it's so incredibly
Speaker 1: important to hear what you have to say, and to
Speaker 1: to read this work and to continue to have the
Speaker 1: dialogue that that you've been having. I'm very glad that
Speaker 1: you have an access to broadcast your visions. And congratulations,
Speaker 1: very important what you're doing. Thank you, Thank you very much,
Speaker 1: Dr Geist And we will definitely catch up soon and hopefully, yeah,
Speaker 1: hopefully I'll be able to come over and we'll hang
Speaker 1: out in your in the will COVID nineteen will not
Speaker 1: last forever, that's right. And and could you just quickly
Speaker 1: describe before we go, what's your set up there? What's
Speaker 1: the cabin like or what you know, what's the house like?
Speaker 1: Deep in the woods? I have a house on and
Speaker 1: I have I have been filmed during a number of times.
Speaker 1: And you're looking at a room in which there are
Speaker 1: quite a few ants us hanging on the wall and
Speaker 1: pictures and so on the four. Uh. It's those that
Speaker 1: have filmed have told me that it's an ideal to
Speaker 1: set up so you can come and visit here. We
Speaker 1: have got excellent facilities in our little town which is
Speaker 1: about um twenty minutes away or so. And uh, as
Speaker 1: I said, uh, it's not the first time that people
Speaker 1: have come and visited me and we've had films taken
Speaker 1: of me. Well that's beautiful. Well again, I just want
Speaker 1: to say thank you very much for all that you
Speaker 1: do and all that you've done. Okay, and thank you.
Speaker 1: Till next time, I will SI say goodbye, bye bye, goodbye.
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thanks
Speaker 1: for sticking with us for Yanni Patelis has asked the
Speaker 1: Eagle and conversation with Dr Valarious Geist again. Hopefully my
Speaker 1: the precursor to the interview where I kind of apologize
Speaker 1: for poor interviewing performance didn't dampen your enjoyment the larger
Speaker 1: points of Dr Geist because that book, the North American
Speaker 1: Widdle Model of Waddle, I said, North American Waddle, North
Speaker 1: American Model of wildlife conservation book that was edited by
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney and Vlarious Cast but also includes many other
Speaker 1: impactful individuals in the conservation space. Is an important book.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't read it, go read it. And
Speaker 1: if you read it for the TC book Club and
Speaker 1: your question didn't get in there, sorry about that. It
Speaker 1: was hard to get a question in Edge of Wise
Speaker 1: with Dr Geist because he has so much to say.
Speaker 1: But it's a book we should all take a look
Speaker 1: at I was actually Phil. I was up camping with
Speaker 1: the kiddos over the weekend by a nice lake and
Speaker 1: this backcountry lake here in Montana, and I brought that
Speaker 1: book and I was I was going to read it
Speaker 1: like when everybody was resting or fishing or sleeping. I
Speaker 1: was going to read it. Um. But that never happened
Speaker 1: because everybody was running around. But I did read a
Speaker 1: few paragraphs to my kid and he was he was
Speaker 1: interested in what this is all about. So don't read
Speaker 1: it to your kids. Oh, I would never. Never if
Speaker 1: you want to put him to sleep. It's a very
Speaker 1: technical book, I will say that, but it's but it's
Speaker 1: essential knowledge, essential knowledge for every hunter an angler out there. Um,
Speaker 1: pheels you feel like? Asked the eagle went well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought that was great. Brandon was a great first guest. Canadians. Yeah. Nice,
Speaker 1: nice play individuals. Speaking of nice polite individuals. Um. Next
Speaker 1: week is and Phil just can't every time he knows
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna say, he can't contain himself. Next week
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into Now, We're gonna get into uh,
Speaker 1: it's an opposition show. We had doctor guys talking about
Speaker 1: intelligent intervention and that we should be managing predators, that
Speaker 1: we should be actively managing them through hunting and other means.
Speaker 1: And next week we're going to kind of address the
Speaker 1: opposite opinion, and in this case, the opposite have been
Speaker 1: belongs to Dr Barry Kay Gilbert. What now, let me
Speaker 1: just explain myself, Phil, Okay, because you're still you know,
Speaker 1: as the residents skept it. You told me about this,
Speaker 1: uh a few days ago, and I just I was
Speaker 1: telling you, I think I think it might be the
Speaker 1: better idea to just keep this book closed. Man. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not I like to uh, I like to embrace
Speaker 1: my bad ideas. Okay. So I emailed Dr Barry kay Or.
Speaker 1: We hadn't spoken since, you know, briefly after the last show.
Speaker 1: He was very upset by some of the responses that
Speaker 1: he got from our program. But I felt after we
Speaker 1: named after the salty Gilbert, after the element salty Gilbert
Speaker 1: that we came up, I had just he is on
Speaker 1: my mind a lot. It's thinking about him. Um. The
Speaker 1: inter actual interview guests from next week is again named
Speaker 1: Chris Dermont. We'll talk about him, but he brought that
Speaker 1: interview up when him and I were talking about some
Speaker 1: of these issues. And as I was telling Phil, a
Speaker 1: week doesn't go by where I don't either have an
Speaker 1: email about or think about Dr Barry K. Gilbert. And
Speaker 1: I thought, well, what a relationship I have with this
Speaker 1: man where he is? He is a weekly part of
Speaker 1: my life, and yet we don't talk. And so I
Speaker 1: reached out and I offered to bury the hatchet. Basically said, hey, like,
Speaker 1: come on, let's have some fun. Let's bury the hatchet.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about our core values and where they align
Speaker 1: rather than arguing about what we argued about prior. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of ways that it could go.
Speaker 1: And so next week you'll see how it did go.
Speaker 1: So hang on to your seats, right Phil. That's great?
Speaker 1: And Phil is conspicuously go on a vacation right after
Speaker 1: we finished it up, So yeah, you might need it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just assume that that everything's gonna come
Speaker 1: crashing down after this interview. Well maybe this is the
Speaker 1: last or the next to the last episode of th HC.
Speaker 1: While I'm at it, go give us a review on iTunes, Subscribe,
Speaker 1: tell your friends to subscribe, do all you kind of
Speaker 1: support the show. We certainly need it to support my
Speaker 1: bad ideas. There's also a new podcast on the met
Speaker 1: eat podcast network Ben Oh, Yeah Bent ben CNT check
Speaker 1: it out, Get Bent, check it out Yeah Fishing Podcast
Speaker 1: Miles Nulte, Joe, Sir Mellie. You'll hear the ads, hopefully
Speaker 1: you'll hear the podcast. It's a good one. It's different
Speaker 1: than anything you've ever heard. I guarantee it, So go
Speaker 1: give it a listen and we will see you next
Speaker 1: week for Barry Kay Gilbert Talking Bears. But because I
Speaker 1: can't go a week without doing right way wrong, I'm
Speaker 1: waiting wrong, drinking in Heaven. M