WEBVTT - Ep. 139: Ask the Eagle with Janis Putelis and Dr. Valerius Geist on Wolves, Intelligent Intervention, and the North American Model 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:13.440 The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.480 grew up on an older row. Hey, everybody welcomed episode 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.280 hundred thirty nine of The Hunting Collective Big Show Today. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.639 Say hey, Phil, Hello, how are you doing? Sir? Doing well? 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.560 You have maintained your skepticism. We're just before we hit record. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.319 Your your skeptical of almost every decision I make on 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.920 the show. You know, I'm just here to balance things out. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.519 I am. I am the show's devil's advocate. Uh, that's 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.080 my job. Thank you well. Thanks the return of Janice 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.680 the Eagle patel Us A lot of an eagle patel Us. Hello, Johanni, 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.000 good morning, how are you. It's I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.960 Now before we go anywhere, thank you to Element for 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.240 being the title sponsor this program. Yanny, is this your 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.360 first time trying Element? Yes? What do you give your thoughts? 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.000 Because you you do a lot of running. Um, I 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.320 hear tell from Maggie Mary Magdalen that you guys are 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.600 gonna run at an actual race of some kind. We 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:13.280 had many races plan but they've all been canceled. And well, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.280 what do you think of the salty deliciousness. That is, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:21.400 it's exactly that. The first gulp you're like, whoa, yeah, 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.319 did I just jump into a refreshing ocean? But then 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.880 the second gulf you're you're used to it. Then by 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.319 the third one, I'm thinking, man, I could really see 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.800 how that salt would help my calves to not cramp, 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.280 probably on a mile. It's become essential for me. If 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.920 you want to learn more, drink element Ta dot com 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.959 slash meat Eater. There's pictures of us hunting and doing 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.360 things and drinking elements so you will like that. Go there, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.120 Do I get to take this whole box home? Yeah, 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.400 and drink it a whole box for you. I'm gonna 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.000 grab a couple of those before you. Let's yeah, that's 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.920 the orange flavor Orange salt, Orange salt. I gotta say that. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.440 Raspberries by far my favorite. It's good, by far my favorite. 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.160 I like it because just a little little little pack 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.480 of there's not much in there, maybe a tablespoon. It 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.600 does a whole court. Yeah. Um, I might even dilute 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.960 it just to even a little bit more while I'm running. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:15.960 It's full of electual lyce. And as you said, some 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.680 of the other similar products out there on the market 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.920 are just full of sugar point where the it's just 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:26.320 it's this unpleasant and so drink Element dot com slash 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.840 Meteor hit it up. Now, we got a lot of 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:30.640 to do today, Yanni, do you want to kind of 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.800 tell the twisting and turning tail of asked the Eagle. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.919 Do we want to leave that behind the scenes? Phil 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.720 and I have been I don't know if there's a 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.919 lot of twisting and turning. I was trying to give 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.360 some dramatics to the when I when you asked about 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.720 it over email, I replied, and I used the word stasis. Stasis. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.160 I feel like it's a perfect descriptor. I would agree. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.960 It's just busy over here, Meteor and um, yeah, asked 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.160 the Eagle. It just was taken a little too much time. 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.119 That's true. That's true. So we've opted here at th HC. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.440 Will swaddle it, take care of it and help it 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.200 to grow. Um. We we'll do as many, asked the Eagle, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.160 segments as possible. Now we're all busy, we should I 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:11.680 do want to talk with you about the old fall 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.359 hunting schedule. What's're up to? So what's the laid out 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.359 for us? That's the most exciting because I know you've 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.400 had some things canceled, right, like all of us have. 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.359 Kind of, no, not right now, not yet, not yet, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.679 But I gotta tell you about my weekend. Man, I 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.959 went from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.639 Kind of I'm being a bit dramatic, but I was 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:37.080 shooting field points. I sent you some pictures just like 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.600 the you know, yeah three inch group at forty yards, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.120 just feeling great to look out elk. Yeah. Threw on 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:51.080 some broadheads and just really what broadheads? I tried three 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:55.240 different ones and I'm just spraying broadheads. So, um, I 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.880 think I've got a tuning issue. I've gotten friends, so 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:00.560 I'm gonna go and try to get that take care 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.840 of today. But I always wait too long to switch 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.360 over to the broadheads. I've gotta have two weeks until 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.640 my first hot. Yeah, I feel you. I feel like 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.400 that's probably what most people do. Well, I don't say 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.720 probably what most people do wrong, but it's a common occurrence. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.640 So I have gone to probably overcompensating and just destroying 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.760 my targets by shooting broadheads or they destroy targets. Yeah, 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.520 you and I have been sharing some targets, but yeah, 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.240 I I I probably do it. Wait earlier, I doll 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.839 out of the whole pack of broadheads and destroy my 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.279 targets in an effort to not be in the situation 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.120 room because I've been there so many times, so many 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.400 damned times. So but you know what, I'd rather be 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.720 here than have a good, good shooting broadhead and not 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.039 have my form and strength down, which is where I 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.240 think where I feel. I feel like really good, like 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.720 I can. My draw cycle feels good, my release feels good. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.640 I'm shooting well. I just need to Hopefully it's just 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.400 gonna be a couple of minor tweaks. I gotta admit here. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.680 I feel my arrow is going where I wanted to, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.239 and I'm shooting. My groups are fine. I've been shooting 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.239 out the fifty yards is I can shoot the fifty 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.039 six in my backyard. So I've been shooting out the 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.200 fifty six by the byby standing on the sidewalk in 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.240 my little suburban development, and people walk by, and some 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:16.640 some are very like, oh what kind of bow was that? 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.920 And other people just kind of wide berth that baby 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.719 and go across the street give me that look like 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:23.680 should you be doing that. I feel like that's gonna 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.440 come to an end. Yeah, probably probably whatever somebody's gonna 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.159 be like, isn't there a covenant against that? Are you 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.159 in city limits or no? Yeah you are? Yeah yeah, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:35.960 But I just feel like it's both. There's lots of 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.440 archery targets around the area, and so I just feel 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.040 like it's I just know it's one of those things 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.560 where you should ask better, ask for forgiveness than permission. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.000 That's right, unless, of course, forgiveness is when you fence. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.440 Sorry about your friend, Well, it's all fenced, so they're like, 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.200 the worst thing I can do is probably plunge one 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.080 through somebody's fence, And so I just like, hey, dude, 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.480 can I can I buy you like seven extra vertical 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.279 pieces of your fence so in case I put an 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:04.880 arrow through it, I can. There's a guy in my 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.840 neighborhod place that does the exact same thing. He's got 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.560 his target like the back of his backyard. He has 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.080 his massive open gate and he goes to like the 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:17.000 sidewalk and through the gate. Yeah yeah, I mean you 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.560 gotta do that, um, but I will, I admit to like, 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.359 I felt I feel really good about accuracy but my form, 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.679 like my mental archery games is so far off, it's off, 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.000 and I can't. I mean, I'm to that point and 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.120 I have friends that are do this and like serially 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.599 do this, like do this every year, where they're just 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.839 switching everything up, change my stabilizer, put more weight on it. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:41.839 And that's where I'm at right now. But it's not 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.640 that I'm shooting portally. It's just I can't get comfortable. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:46.760 I can't get to the point where I'm not worried 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.039 about something. And I think it's just mental, but I'm not. 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.800 It's and it's not that I'm it's not that I'm 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.960 jumping the trigger. It's nothing like that. It just feels 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.120 like not comfortable. It doesn't feel it's almost like you 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.840 want to be not comfortable. Yeah, maybe maybe I've tried 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.440 all the tricks that that you know, some of the 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.719 experts have taught me over the years, which you know, 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.160 like I play, put a little speaker behind my my elbow, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.720 my back elbow, and then I pull towards that like 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.440 instead of help you not jump the trigger, you pull 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.720 towards that music, just like send your elbow towards that music. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:24.680 You try to feel that muscle in your back pulling. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:27.840 I've done all that, and I've switched to releases about 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.640 six times. I have three different styles and releases. I 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.880 keep going back and forth. So anyways, anybody that wants 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.720 to write in th HC the meter dot com and 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.559 help me. Maybe this is kind of like the first 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.640 asked to like ask the Eagle practice what would you 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.880 do to fix your brain? Oh? I thought you're gonna 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:49.240 say this is the Eagle asks where you have been? 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.920 And I are like, dude, we don't know what to do. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.560 When we call somebody and they help. I like this idea. 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.200 We call a listener, like, hey man, we can struggle them. 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.280 What we can call your boy John Dudley. John Dudley's man. 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.360 He's a sense a man. And I've never shot I've 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.680 never been more comfortable. I've never shot better when John 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.040 was available, Like when I could talk to him and 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.240 say like, hey man, what's going on? He'd be like, oh, 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.600 we'll do this, send me a video and I'll tell you. 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.560 And I think that kind of like that thing has 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:19.680 helped me to know what I'm doing wrong when I'm 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.680 doing it. That doesn't help me fix always fix the 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.560 thing and that's That's one thing that I tell a 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.400 lot of people that are new to it as the 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.480 one thing. I'm not the best bow shot in the world. 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.079 But learning from people like John Dudley and others, it 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.840 was like, now I know what I'm doing wrong. If 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:37.719 I'm shooting low left, I can tell you where I 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:39.760 close my eyes and tell you where the air is 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.600 gonna miss. You know, when I released that area, be like, 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.560 oh that was low left, hope that was high right. Hope, 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.360 that's dead center. And so at least you have that 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.679 knowledge where you're not guessing why that air didn't get 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.599 here I supposed to go, you know, in terms of 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.199 your form, So you know, maybe right in and help 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.160 Yoanni with his broadhead problem. Did you shoot mechanicals fixed everything? No, No, 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.839 I don't. I'm gonna I'm gonna ready for an elk hunt, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.079 and so I don't think I'm gonna shoot mechanicals, not 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.679 an elk. I know people do with great success, but 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.640 I think that'll be an enduring debate in the hunting world. 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.360 Just fixed. I've got a couple of different fixed blades 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.800 I'm messing with. Like I said, I think a little 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.600 bit of bow tune and I'll get there. Okay, All right, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.760 well let's let's let's give people a little precursor. What 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.280 asked the eagle? What has asked the eagle? That's right, okay, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:27.920 that's where how I don't know how we got you 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.560 actually asking me about my fall? Another step back, and 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:33.480 but you want to you want to take okay, go 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.560 back to my hunt's middle step. Uh so yeah, Colorado Elk. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.280 I'm going with Jason Phelps. Phelps games calls, which is 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.439 gonna be awesome, gum. Nothing nothing like having a dude 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.280 that builds game calls calling for you. But the flip 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.920 side of that is that if I shoot one or 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.120 if I get my opportunity call for him, then I 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:57.920 have to call for him and I have to really, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.079 you know, step make sure my aimes on points. So again, 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:03.959 two weeks before the season, guess why I did last night? 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.640 Put it. I'll call in my mouth, but I will 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.800 say that for me, making sweet Elk sounds is a 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:13.640 lot easier just to pick back up and shooting that bom. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.320 Uh you're feeling that for me? Eater hunts. Yeah, okay, 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.280 watch out for that on YouTube. That's right, be out 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.920 when they come back. In a quarter of one. Probably 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.360 next year when finally we're out of the pandemic, we're 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:30.240 gonna rease this baby. Uh let's see what else do 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.400 I have? I drew a really bit and uh Montana 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.160 elk rifle tag, which I'll be hunting like late October. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.440 I got ten days set aside for that. I'm gonna 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:44.199 have a big wall tent. Hopefully many many friends calm 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.600 to help find a big bull for me. I'll come 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.200 help you. Okay, yeah, I'll be there and I'll be 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.199 there for the opener, luring your binos and a dryp 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:58.960 on easy. Um. What else? Going to Wisconsin for white 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:03.439 tailt hunt with my dad archery, which I'm very excited about. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.800 I'm gonna swing around in a tree saddle for a 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:13.199 whole week. Body. Yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, I 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.480 think it's great. I got the kneepads set up going. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.400 Um yeah, you really can shoot three sixty degrees out 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.920 of one of those things, and like there's no drawback 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.360 that I've seen that I that I can figure out yet, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.559 Like you can sit there. Last year I sat two 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.200 full days during gun season in November. Um in it 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.240 super comfy all day. What I like about it. The 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.160 best is that there is no slack. You're always under tension, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.560 So it's not like if you fall asleep or slip 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.360 or whatever, there's gonna be like this drop or the 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.120 sensation of falling and then it, you know, picks up. 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.040 You're just always under tension. So even if you slip out, 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.960 like you'll kind of depending on how far you've leaned 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.480 out from the tree, you'll swing back to the tree 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.800 and that's it. It's very reassuring. Oh yeah, you just 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.640 had to get used to trusting. Uh, you know that 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.360 rope that it's holding you there. There's a long debate 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:09.080 tree steps or climbing sticks. Man, I'm gonna use sticks 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.959 because they actually seemed easier. I mean, I don't know. 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.680 There's probably new screws these days that go in super 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.199 super fast and you can zip right up there. That 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.080 is satisfying. When you get one of those things going, 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.440 it just starts rocking in the tree. You know, I 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.199 should probably bring both. I don't have any problem with 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.360 putting a couple of holes in a tree me either. 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.320 I've I've had I've had very experiences both ways. Last 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.520 year at then on the back forty mark Kenny gave 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.480 me these climbing sticks I was unfamiliar with, and boy 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.960 did I struggle because the tree was just one of 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.480 those trees that had a serpentine pattern going it's all. 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.520 I mean, it just seemed like it was way too loud. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.400 I'm like, dude, if I just had a handful of 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.480 tree steps and I could just screw them in real quickly, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.679 I'd be up this tree and you know, fifteen minutes, 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.800 but instead of forty five minutes of banging these sticks 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.720 against the tree trying to wrap yourself around a big 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.640 tree and then get get the straps. But see, I 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.720 think your problem there is that someone gave you those 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.920 things like the hour before you're going into the field. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.400 Just yeah, yeah, so if you yeah, that's another debate 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.720 right in dot com. Maybe we'll do that for us 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:18.600 to eagle. But anyway, yeah, any other big I'm going 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.240 you'll there hunt with Steve from an episode of Metia 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.920 dur in Colorado for fourth season, which is pretty special. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.480 I've never gotten hunt. Yeah, and this year it's late 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.120 and so we're hunting, like I think it's like the 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:34.000 tow of November, which is way late for Colorado. So 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.199 we should have some pretty good action. Uh. And then 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.680 I'm topping finishing it all off, rounding it off with 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.480 a trip to Arkansas for a double um where I'm 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.800 gonna go and do some raccoon hunting with Clay Newcom 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.000 and then after that I'm going to do some speckled 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.800 belly goose hunting with Danielle Pruett and Jonathan Wilkins. Black Revival. 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.079 Oh really nice? Yeah? Oh yeah, man, that's a good 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.199 it's a good time. And then all like a lot 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.600 of Mediator Hunts episodes at all, all of them well, 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.280 well besides that mule deer hunt with Steve Um who else? 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.920 Oh yeah, I also drew a rifle pronghorn tag here 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.640 in Montana. No, not far, only an hour away Montana. 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.080 I didn't draw anything, and then they were sold out 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.440 of surplus. I know, crazy, first time maybe ever ever. Yeah, 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.680 that's so I I had. I had a fallback plan. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.720 Don't worry, everybody know you're worried. I had a fallback plan, wyomings, 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.680 I will be hunting pronghorn here. Yeah. No, man, the 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.640 demand is high. Its crazy, that's and you know there's 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.480 a whole another conversation about good and bad of of 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.360 promoting the outdoors in the way that we do, and 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.000 and what the pandemic has caused and all those things. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.480 But I thought, I feel lucky to live in a 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.360 state like Montan, Like although we're friendly to nonresidents, we 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.600 kind of limited and it's not like you go to 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.360 Colorado and everybody's just like, well, I didn't draw anywhere else, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.280 So let's go out to Colorado and just pack the woods. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.560 Do I love I love I love Texas. I love 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.920 everybody listening in Texas. But that was, you know, in 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.440 the Texas p h A chapter. That's what these guys did. 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.240 You know that most most of them we're going to Colorado. 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:14.760 Well it's close, it's close, right, you can make it. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.000 You can zip up there really quick. It's pretty easy 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.680 to get. It's it's you know, decently easy to draw. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.520 But then if you don't draw, you can, you know, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.280 famously just getting over the counter teg. So we won't 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.200 mention some of the other states that have good over 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.040 the counter opportunities, but there are many. So I'm getting 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.280 to you guys will enjoy um. In a couple of weeks, 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.440 I'm gonna go down to Louisiana do a gator hunt 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.600 with Troy and Jacob Landry, the swamp people from the 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.240 History Channel. I've been down there a bunch of times. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.600 That's fun. So we'll do like an audio experience for 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.440 that for everybody. There's no chance that isn't hilarious. Hold 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.960 on audio experience. That means Phils included. I invited Phil. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.160 I said, Phil, you're welcome to come, and Phil was 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.840 a little I think he has some trepidation. Well, it 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.720 was just kind of a last minute thing. It was. 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.160 It's just tough because school starting and it's hard for 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:03.840 me to be like, hey, I'm going to Louisiana for 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:05.960 two weeks to hunt gators with that over weeks. No, 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.560 not two weeks, it's like two days. No if into 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.200 it's just kind of like like a like short notice 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.920 short So I don't think I'm gonna make it. Yeah, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.000 but I I wield the the little recorder pretty well. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.280 I feel so we're gonna get wool and should just 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.280 think it would be a great way for to fill 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.440 something outdoor experience experience, and it is. It is one 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.440 of the more gnarly experiences that that you can you 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.240 can have in the outdoors. You basically if you've ever 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.240 seen the show. You basically put a rotten piece of 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.080 chicken on a hook, you drop, you to tie that 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.360 hook to a tree, hang a hook down on the water. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.360 You do about twenty thirty of those, and you go back, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.120 have yourself a cocktail, wake up early in the morning, 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:49.840 get on the boat, you go check those. If that 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.760 if that tree is shaken, as Trey Andrew says, it's 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.200 a tree shaker, then you have to get the rope. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.920 And you're literally pulling up a giant dinosaur out of 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.760 the water. And some other dude is there with a 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.120 twenty two with no sights, and so if you can 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.919 get that alligator's head out of the water, he puts 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.080 you have to put that twenty two at the exact 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.760 right spot boom, right between the eyes. Then you pull 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.920 it up into the boat. And if you if you 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.800 fill all your tags for the day, you end up 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.680 with a fairly small boat full of gators. So you 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.560 end up either sitting on a dead gator or at 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.959 least sitting on a on a seat and putting your 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.119 feet on the gator. And it's just even after they 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.159 shoot him, do they take their mouth shut. So you 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:34.760 need me to call your gal. I mean it might help, honestly. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.120 All right, let's get to ask the Eagle. Hopefully everybody's 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.359 now excited for our hunt with with Troy and Jacob Landry. Um, 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.000 but yeah, my dad's coming actually to Montana ton Elk 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.199 and opening day. So well then you can't come and 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.240 help me like you just promised, you know this opening 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.000 day archery. Oh so I can come help you. Okay, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.960 I help you there. But then yeah, I got Missouri 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:01.919 Brakes archery tag, got my Wyoming prong, worn Idaho mule deer. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.400 I'm feeling pretty good. Feeling real good about it. Um, 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.160 little Charles Rodney action later in the year, nice rabbit hunt. 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:12.919 All right, asked the eagles, give us give us the 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.000 full now we're finally made it there, give us the 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.760 full rundown of of asked the Eagle is going to 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.040 be a podcast? And you did a few? Yeah, very 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.639 much like based on like a not an old timing. 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.480 They still do plenty of them, but just to basically 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.000 like a call in radio show where folks would call 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:38.359 in and we would they would just ask hunting and 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.040 fishing questions to me and do my best to answer them. Yep, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.920 and Uh, it's it's you got Metator hunts, you get 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.639 Metator TV. All the stuff that you do, we just 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.640 can't find. Maybe one day you'll turn it to its 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.560 own podcast. Yeah, we'll see. I'm hoping that we can breathe, 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.200 breathe enough life into it that'll excite the This will 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.240 be fun though, just to do a couple here and 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.560 there and plug him in And yeah, as and as 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.800 I told you, you you need like i've every time we've 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.480 had a listener on this show, almost every time, and 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.600 Phil can attest almost every time. The listeners do amazing. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.880 These people are thoughtful, they're funny, they get they get 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:16.760 our humor, they get what we're trying to accomplish, and 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.560 they always come through them. And so no pressure on Brandon, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.119 who were about to call? Who wrote in um, But 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.800 we're gonna do our best to answer questions and we'll 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:28.439 see where we get to. You ready to call Brandon? 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:37.200 No telephone needed, no skype Hell Brandon, Ben O'Brien, how's 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.159 it going? Man? Hey Danny, how's it going? Can you 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.760 hear me all the way in Canada? Yeah, it's a 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.800 little little okay? Phil? Is this okay? Can you hear Brandon. Yeah, 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:52.479 we'll make it work. Cands great brand. Say hi to Phil. Hey, Brandon, 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.840 how are you fantastic? Buddy? Is there anything you need 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:58.520 to say to Phil? I know we we did. We 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.479 talked the other day, and is there anything you need 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:03.359 to say to Phil? Would you like to to try 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.560 to get film motivated for his first hunt? Just just 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.480 floor is yours to an outward profession of my unconditional 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.080 love for you, Phil, and I just I really hope that, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.720 I really hope that your first time goes great whenever 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.879 that happens, so that we can like milk for it 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.720 until then. I I appreciate that. I gotta say that 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.520 was a lot more um effective than Chuck Norris and 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.280 David Hasselhoff combined. You've given Brden the power of Hasselhoff 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:35.600 and Nora. That's right, Okay, that's fun. The rest of 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.399 my life is going to be pointless. So thank you 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:42.359 for Hey, we're making people's lives. Brandon, say Hoti, Yanni Patellis, Hey, Janni, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.320 how's it going. It's going well, man. Thanks for calling 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.680 in or thanks for accepting our call. Yeah, either way, 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.600 for these I wouldn't miss it for the world. The 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.640 radio shows of the twenty one century. They call you, 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.720 we call you, Yeah, exactly, that's that's funny. I was 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.159 talking to my grandma about it, and I have to like, 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.200 you know, you have to explain a podcast. She goes, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:04.800 you know, anything new in your life, Like, well, yeah, 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.560 actually something really awesome. But then you have to explain 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:09.840 what a podcast is and then make a cell phone 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:11.560 for how you get the podcast. You can take a 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.800 radio show just it's like a radio show. When you 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.480 were a kid, and that's how you've watched TV was 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.399 over the radio. It's like that. Yeah, podcasts are reverse radio. 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.240 It's like it's the radio, but the opposite. That's fine. Now, Brandon, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.879 you're you've made it onto the first ever actually aired 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.840 asked the Eagle segment and Yanni. And Yanni is prepared 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.119 to take your question. He's prepared to answer it and 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.040 to the best of his ability, I will assist him 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.800 in any way that I can, and so give us 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:47.840 a little bit of backstory and then, um, briefly your question. Sure, So, 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.480 I've been hunting since forever. Part of I guess third 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.960 or fourth generation uh Northern Ontario hunter. Um, and I 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.679 wasn't really introduced to the idea of back country hunting 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.600 until I've watched Mediator on Netflix when it came out 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.000 on Netflix. So, um, I've been really inspired to kind 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.760 of take that route with my hunting career because I 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.679 was always really inspired by the way Steve talked about, uh, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.479 the ethics involved and the connection to your food, right, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:22.280 which is something that you know, you go to deer 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.760 camp and you get deer and you shoot moose, and 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:27.800 that's just kind of you know that we hunt because 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.320 it's cheap food, right, rather than looking at the broader 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.840 ethical background of it. So, uh, this year, I actually 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.920 just accepted a position at a separate I've been selling 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.200 cards for three years, just accepted a position and management 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.680 another store. So I'm gonna be pretty short on time, 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.120 so i won't be able to do the typical week 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:47.720 at the camps. So I thought, this is how I'm 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:50.000 going to get my back country start. I'm gonna do 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:54.360 a three day back country archery whitetail hunt on public land, 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:59.600 of course, because you gotta. Um. So my question for 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:05.840 you on and anybody really is how sorry, what are 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.400 some things that you would suggest for a first time 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:13.399 d I Y solo back country hunter? Um? Anything dear 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.440 lessons you wish you would have learned before your first 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:20.440 hunt instead of on it or out it. Um, anything 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:25.439 that you think would be important to know going into this. Yeah, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.080 how it sounds interesting. Back country white tail is something 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:31.480 I've never done, but I should probably add it all 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:34.000 my to my bucket list. How far you plan on 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:38.640 going in? I should be about four to five kilometers, 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.760 that's kind of you gotta get past the you gotta 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:43.840 get past the moose to get to the deer that 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.159 they don't cross too much habitat up here, which I 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:47.879 should mention I wouldn't be going for moos if it 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.600 were possible to get a tag, which it's not good. 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.960 Well right the side impossible right hunt anyways, Um, so yeah, 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:59.920 probably four or five kilometers in nice um and you're 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:06.320 archery hunting. Yeah, yeah, uh, definitely bring an extra release. Yeah, 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.920 here's a rule. Two is one, one is none. It 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.920 was a rule you must follow up. You know, there's 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.640 a lot of items that you're always trying to figure out, Like, 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:17.639 you know, if you're gonna bring it, you need at 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:21.560 least to have like two or more uh reasons or 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:23.879 uses for that item, which is a good way to 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:27.199 think about your you know, bad country gear, and that 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:30.600 prevents you from doubling up sometimes or having two items 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:35.520 that are kind of doing the same thing. But the release, man, 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.720 I mean, I just I've yet to lose one myself. 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:40.880 I'm sure it will happen someday, but I definitely saw 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:43.199 it quite over the years, quite a few clients that 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.879 would lose a release and not have a backup in camp, 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:49.360 and so we would be forced to, you know, lose 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:50.920 a day of hunting because we had to run into 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.359 town and uh and go and buy a release and 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.040 definitely bring a couple of those. Um. But I was 0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:59.760 thinking about it over the weekend. We we knew your 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.359 question on Friday, so I gotta think about what I 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:05.520 was gonna tell you. But I was thinking about my 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:10.200 first solo back country hunt, and I was chasing elk around, 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.000 and I just remember how heavy my pack was, and 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:16.600 I remember like halfway through the first morning thinking like, 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.520 you know what, this isn't gonna really work with what 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:22.439 I have on my back, Like I literally cannot chase 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:24.320 elk around. So I'm either gonna have to drop my 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.280 stuff and make a camp or I need to lighten 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:29.600 up so much that you know, I can actually still 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.080 chase with with my backpack on. So that's something that 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:34.159 you need to figure out, is if you're gonna like 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:38.120 make a camp and then just you know, bust off 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:40.960 with just like a smaller pack and uh come back 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.200 every evening, or if you're gonna try to be light 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:47.520 enough where you can actually hunt um with the pack on. 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:49.760 So I don't know if you're doing ambush or spot 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:51.640 and stock or what your strategy is going to be, 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:56.119 but I have a plan for that because Yeah, I 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.240 was in there with I don't know, it was probably 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.719 fifty five sixty pound unpack, and it was just impossible 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:03.960 to chase elk with that pack on my back. That's 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:06.440 a great point to about. Wait, when people think about 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:09.520 I've heard people throw out eighty pounds and and and 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:11.200 this is in terms of packing out an elk or 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:13.880 or whatever, which you probably won't have that issue with 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.320 them with a white tail, but if you're packing the 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:20.600 whole thing out, it'll be it'll be fairly heavy, that's right. 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.080 But sixty pound pack is imp Like that is impossibly 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:26.600 heavy to move around with. I don't care how much 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.320 you you can you can roll down the trail, no 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:32.879 big deal, you know, Lottie Dotty. It's it's a nice 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:36.000 stroll with sixties pound pack. But when you started getting 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:38.680 off trail and jumping logs and trying to make quick 0:26:38.720 --> 0:26:41.120 moves to get out in front of an animal, it's 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.680 gonna be much different. But I'm guessing your white tail 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:45.919 hunt's not going to be quite as it won't be 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.960 quite as much chasing as there isn't an elk hunt. Um, 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:52.640 what do you what's your strategy for the hunt? Brandon 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:57.280 so whearing Whearing going. I've only been there once, um, 0:26:57.359 --> 0:26:59.199 and it was it was a few years ago. But 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.160 I know they're I know they are allowed to deer 0:27:01.200 --> 0:27:06.399 there on other on other hunters account. Um. So that 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.560 being said, I mean I suppose I'll find some sign 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.680 and try to hunt over it, But I also did 0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:16.600 I did plan on doing some moving around, um, rather 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:19.720 than having a base camp, just because I'm not sure 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:21.800 where I'm going to find the most like the highest 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:25.560 concentration of deer. Yeah, now are you gonna Are you 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:28.240 gonna somehow getting get into a tree when you say 0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:31.800 hunt over it? Uh? No, I I imagine that hill 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:35.320 is there. No, I I don't have a something like 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.360 an interested in uh because while listening to Kenyan talk 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:41.960 about it, um is saddles your saddles. But it's not 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:44.800 something I I don't know anybody who uses one personally, 0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:47.520 so it's kind of hard to get that the exposure 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.679 to it. Um And I mean I do, I have 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.760 a climbing stand, but but be bringing it be much 0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:57.800 too loud and heavy. It's not exactly a new style. 0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:01.480 It is probably the very first one ever since Yes, 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:03.720 you plan to find an overlook and then be able 0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:08.200 to glass and try to find where some critters are moving. Yes, yeah, exactly, 0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:09.679 I mean sort of sort of see if I can 0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:14.119 pick out it's a little swampy back there. Um. So 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:17.440 I don't know exactly how much success I'll have with classing, 0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:20.240 but I hope, I hope probably able to find something 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.000 at least semi open. I mean, it's really it's still 0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:25.919 very full like a follia right now. So I know 0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:28.560 once I get into the falling and I have a 0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:30.760 lot like it's the big woods, so I don't have 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:35.520 a lot better visibility to take advantage of. Yeah, I 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:38.040 would say that'll be probably the easiest way to do it. 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:40.880 I would say to you talk about like specifically. Something 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:43.920 I think that's probably more universal for everybody is organizing 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:47.240 your gear, and to me, like a stuff sack, like 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:51.280 you gotta have I go with anything I need to 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:53.880 to dress and clean. An animal kids goes in one. 0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:55.920 I'll call a stuff sack, but you can call it whatever. 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.719 Dry bag doesn't really matter. I got a medical kid 0:28:58.960 --> 0:29:02.800 that goes in a small dry bag, and so organizing 0:29:02.840 --> 0:29:05.520 your gear in that fashion, that way you're not rummaging 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.280 through your pack and there's a bunch of stuff at 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:11.160 the bottom. I always put my food in one dry bag. 0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.280 I always make sure food wise that I got um, 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:18.600 a jet boil or some such item, and then m 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.080 R Eas and I always pack myself some like gummy 0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.680 bears and snicker bar. You actually eat m R. Eas. Yeah, well, 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:26.680 I mean that's what I call them. You're talking about 0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:29.840 freeze drive freeze, dried meals whatever m R Eas meals 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:32.960 ready to eat, yeah, um, And so that's that's what 0:29:33.640 --> 0:29:35.880 I just try to make sure you're organized that way 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:38.040 you don't have a that It also helps for the 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.000 shifting weight of your pack, if you're able to put 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:42.040 certain things in certain spots and lay it out in 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:45.240 a way that makes makes that pack feel more comfortable 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:47.320 and you can keep your gear dry. That's something I 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:51.640 definitely do now religiously. Is that just about everything in 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:55.200 my pack? Besides I don't know my water bladder and stuff. 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:57.280 It just doesn't matter if it gets wet, but everything 0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:01.280 is packed into dry bags, like within my backpack, even 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:03.680 though I'll have a rain cover over it. All my 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.920 clothes are in a dry bag. The food is probably 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:08.880 in a dry bag, which that kind of take out 0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:12.560 easily to hang in a tree in the dry bag. Um, 0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:15.160 obviously you're sleeping bag should be in a in a 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:18.520 dry bag. Tent doesn't need to be but I think 0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:21.880 for did you say it's just three days, Yeah, yeah, 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:25.280 I would just you know, three nights, three nights, yeah, 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:29.719 air on light and bringing less because it's not like 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:33.360 you're gonna starve or or you know, like it's it's 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:37.479 it's not like a major expedition. So just in knowing that, 0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:40.120 you'll be so much more comfortable and it'll be you'll 0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:43.640 spend less energy, will be easier getting around gold light. 0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:45.920 If you're looking at something and you're him and han 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:49.680 about it, like leave it behind, like don't bring camp shoes, 0:30:50.160 --> 0:30:52.480 like just living your boots for four days, you'll be fine, 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.800 you know. Um, I was gonna mention I saw in 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.000 your email that you're bringing a jet boil. I don't 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:00.000 know if you've already purchased that or if you've already 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:03.600 taking it out of the packaging, have you? No, I haven't. Actually, 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:05.800 it's funny I was. I had meant to go buy 0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:07.920 it after I got off the bone with Ben after work. 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:11.960 I'm probably not right after um, and I was thinking, like, well, 0:31:11.960 --> 0:31:16.840 I fair waiting to see what they say. Yeah, man, 0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:19.680 I got a recommendation for you. We all just recently 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:22.160 over the course of the summer. I say we all, 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:26.160 Steve and I, Um, I forget who had one, and 0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:28.040 we used it, and then Steve bought one and I 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:32.080 borrowed Steve's for a trip. But the MSSAR reactor stove, 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:37.280 it's basically the same idea as a jet boil. And 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:39.920 maybe jet boils, I mean we I think the last 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:41.760 one we bought was a couple of years ago. Maybe 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.880 they've changed their product, but I swear it seemed like 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.960 this reactor, like you couldn't walk away from it before 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:51.680 the water was boiling. It was just that much faster 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:54.680 and just like the way that it closes and locks 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:58.160 down and kind of the lids a little bit tighter 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:00.200 and better on it. It's got a it's had a 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:04.560 built in handle. Um. I'd highly recommend checking out that 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:08.760 ms ARE reactor stove. It's not awesome. Yeah, I used 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:12.640 MSR water filters. I was an Army conduct for a while, 0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:17.240 so I have very limited back country experience. But it's 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.520 all it's all been in groups, right, so it's time. 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.440 It is much different. Um, because I was an Army 0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.800 Cup for seven years. I didn't eight team day expedition 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:31.800 through alcome part you're in Ontario. But yeah, I mean 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:33.920 that's different because you have so many people to carry 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:37.080 so many different things. Right, well, this is just me, Right, 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:40.960 how do I itemize what I'm gonna bring in that 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.640 sort of thing? Um? Well, and I would say, you know, 0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:49.680 tent wise and talk about tents tents where sometimes weight 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:54.840 gets unwieldy. Um. I carry the the stone Glacier sky 0:32:54.960 --> 0:32:58.280 air ult It's just basically a you know, a nice 0:32:58.280 --> 0:32:59.800 little tar if you put your try to use this 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:02.720 wrecking poles tent poles you tied down to the ground. 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:04.600 It's it's a nice shelter. It sounds like the time 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:06.320 of usually be going. You're not gonna be looking at 0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:09.120 a bunch of snow or any you know, you just 0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:10.520 be looking to get out of the wind, to get 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:14.320 out of the elements, and and that this thing. Only 0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:17.640 ways I've been looking up here, only ways ten point 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:20.520 three ounces and that's that's a huge that's a huge deal. 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:25.040 So if you're only going for three days, Yeah, so 0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:27.880 that's that's a big sometimes a big weight, a big 0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:30.800 weight issue. So anything else he anni as we as 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.400 we uh give Brandon all the confidence in the world 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:37.200 to get going here. No, man, I think more than anything, 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:40.160 you just got to go out there and uh experience 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:43.760 it and um you know you'll you'll learn from doing. 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:47.320 You know, there's there's no substitute for that. So good 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:50.120 luck out there, man Um. I hope you do get 0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:53.520 a get a big one. But I would strongly consider man. 0:33:53.560 --> 0:33:55.360 I know it's it's coming down to the wire and 0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:58.080 it's it's hard to buy a thousand bucks worth of 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.040 gear right before you go. But man if I was 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:03.880 going to archery whitetail hunting, just knowing how spooky those 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:06.040 buggers are, and how tough it is hunting them on 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.400 the ground, you might consider getting yourself into one of 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:12.960 them tree saddles. Um, I've been shooting out of one 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:15.719 last couple of weeks, and boy am I excited about 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.680 using it this fall. Well, they just it looks so 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.920 much more convenient, Like, I mean, we all love a 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:24.359 tree then, but I mean, at the same time, it's 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:26.000 not like I'm about to go carry a ground blind 0:34:26.080 --> 0:34:28.279 in there with me. So I mean that thing is 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:31.560 so it's so easy to pack around. It looks like 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:36.440 like the pack I've got. I've got a badland, which 0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:38.760 because I read a bunch about it and then I 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:43.080 immediately saw one come up on like the next day. Um, 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:44.759 I don't know if you guys talked to you down there, 0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:47.680 it's like we don't. That's all I want to use 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:54.200 it once. So it's like a hundred bucks. Yeah, between 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:56.279 between that and the kilometers, we have no idea what 0:34:56.320 --> 0:35:02.680 you're saying. Man, so confused complete Greek? Yeah, well yeah, 0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:04.359 I mean I made used to pick one of those 0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:06.920 up and I was just like score. So I'm like, well, 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:08.480 it's like you know, I man, you gotta try to 0:35:08.480 --> 0:35:10.680 explain to the life like, Hey, so I saved all 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:12.040 this money on the bed, which means I get to 0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:15.880 spend this much text on everything else right now. Well, 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:22.720 cubic inch pack, Brandon, Um, you're gonna be tight man, 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.319 I've done I usually. I used to have that pack, 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.680 and I did an overnight once in that pack, and uh, 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:33.200 you know I made it work. But boy, you're gonna 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:37.439 have to pack light buddy, real life. It looked big. 0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:41.320 And when I was picking it up, line and stuff 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:42.799 up to putt and I was like, oh, I may 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:48.359 have may have overestimated this. Yeah for sure. Hey, quick 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:52.879 question for you. Um, since you're a professional car deal 0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.080 wheeler and dealer, I'm looking at it, can you give 0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:57.279 me like a hot tip for making sure I get 0:35:57.280 --> 0:36:01.719 a good deal? Yeah, I mean at least this. So here, 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:03.920 here's what I do. If I get somebody's really grinding 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:07.160 me down on price, I asked them what I'm allowed 0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:09.320 to make? You know, what do I gotta do? Everybody 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:10.960 wants to brkness, everybody wants to put a day together. 0:36:11.080 --> 0:36:13.840 Nobody wants to lose money. So if I was you, 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:17.960 I'd say, is that a thing? Interruption? Brandon? But is 0:36:18.000 --> 0:36:20.439 that a thing. Does anybody actually ever sell a car 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:26.120 and lose money? Yeah? Really yes, and you guys just 0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:31.800 make it up on another vehicle, that's right. Yeah, And sometimes, 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:33.879 I mean it depends to if you if you look 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:36.400 at it. If you're working at a franchise dealer, you 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:40.120 know you want to sometimes you wanna get somebody, say, 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:42.560 somebody's stopping out of town. So say if I if 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:46.280 I work for a forward store and I've got somebody 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:49.640 who I know lives in my town and they bring 0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:52.799 me a quote from another town's board dealer, right, it's 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:57.600 actually more detrimental to my business to have more vehicles 0:36:57.680 --> 0:37:02.400 running around with another story sticker on it because they think, oh, well, 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.040 that store has given a great deal. So it's so 0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:07.000 great that people don't want to shop at the local 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:10.879 Ford store. Right. So if if I have a chance 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.400 to keep somebody business in town, I might take a 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:17.480 dump on that deal, just you know, because if you 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:20.920 get it back in service, or maybe they'll buy a 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:23.839 warranty too, and that might help your break even or 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:25.880 or something. You've got to kind of trust your staff 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:30.759 that way. But yeah, it happens. It happens more than 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:33.560 you think. To um, I mean a lot of the time. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:36.359 I mean, I've in three years of sales and I've 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:39.680 taken plenty of deals that I shouldn't have, and I 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.720 mean it all really comes down to when someone's business 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:44.440 is more valuable. I mean, if somebody comes from three 0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.600 hours away and they say, oh, you know my local 0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:51.719 dealer is doing this, Okay, we'll go there, I'm never 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:53.400 gonna see you again. You know you're not gonna come 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:55.799 spend money here to get your truck six and you've 0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:57.920 probably not going to come back for your next vehicle. 0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:01.439 So yeah, all right, So what's the what's the hot tip? 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:04.400 What's the hot tip? When I'm wheeling and dealing, I 0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:06.319 would say, if you can, if you can really nail 0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:09.160 down what kind of truck you're looking for before you 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:13.920 had through, I've got to nail down to to like 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:16.800 mileage year, everything I'm going to use. I'm going for 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:19.200 an old truck because I'm a I just love my 0:38:19.440 --> 0:38:23.560 UH two thousands have O two Tundra, and I'm trying 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:25.560 to buy an O six Tundra, which is the last 0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:28.640 year that they made that body style. I'm trying to 0:38:28.719 --> 0:38:31.560 find with less than a hun less than a hundred 0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:34.400 thousand miles. I want the crew cab needs to be 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.120 forward drive. I don't care what color it is. If 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:39.440 it has a top runic great, If not, I'll find 0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:43.000 one um, but that's it. You know, I'd rather not 0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:45.360 have a limited version. I mean, leather is nice, but 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:47.919 all the other bells and whistles I could care less. 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:50.040 Four And I don't need those running boards that I 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:51.920 feel like they're just gonna get beat up in the woods. 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:55.239 But I know exactly what I'm looking for. And you're 0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:57.279 you're a tall guy. You're a tall guy. You don't 0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.840 need running boards. See I have a seventeen Silverado and 0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:02.279 I'm like five ft nothing, So I yeah, it really 0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:06.200 sucks not having But if I would do, if you can, 0:39:06.280 --> 0:39:09.680 if you can land land yourself on a particular unit, 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:11.880 you know, say that Jim's Used Cars down the street 0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:16.239 has your exact Tundra that you know you want, just 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.440 walk in. Save the guy at the time, just say hey, 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:20.880 I'll buy this right now if you give it to 0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:24.960 me for five bucks overcast you know, and you know 0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:28.440 a hell oftentimes I mean at least me personally. If 0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:29.880 somebody does that and say, yeah, I know this is 0:39:29.920 --> 0:39:32.239 a truck I want, I'm going to buy it? Yes, right, 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.040 because now he's got an offer. It's a lot easier 0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:35.879 to work with an offer. But how do you how 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.520 do I know what cost is for that guy? So 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:40.640 it depends on how he bought it. The chances are 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.440 most people and at least this is up here most 0:39:43.600 --> 0:39:47.440 used cards. You're looking at the market. So he should 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:50.200 bring you back that sticker price. Mine is two grand 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:54.239 question that you might be able to jam them for 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:56.160 a little bit more. And I mean find out if 0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:58.120 but like you know, if they sell a warranty, maybe 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.680 say you know, I I'm sitar and going with an 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:02.360 extended warrant. You what can you tell me about that? 0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:04.160 Give me a chance to sell you on something else. Right, 0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:06.480 they're gonna they'll they'll sell you. They'll sell you the 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:09.680 truck at a lower profit, just hoping that you're going 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.280 to make it up in the in the financial services office. 0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:14.040 Where did you do that or not? Doesn't not, It 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:15.800 doesn't matter to get to the PRIs on the truck. 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.239 This might be the most useful segment of THHC of 0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:21.520 all time. I was just I was just thinking the 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:22.799 same thing. I don't even need a truck and I'm 0:40:22.800 --> 0:40:25.440 about to go buy I'm afraid. I'm afraid for Breedon's life, 0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:27.319 like he's gonna get taken out by like this like 0:40:27.320 --> 0:40:30.600 a shadow cabal, because for divulging all these secrets, these secrets. 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:32.919 Yeah no, and who's the who's the guy that who's 0:40:32.920 --> 0:40:35.720 the guy that got got taken out over the morale recipe? 0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:41.319 Yeah you're that guy. Well, thanks, Brandon, Man, I might 0:40:41.400 --> 0:40:44.640 be um, I might be even test driving one this afternoon, 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:48.440 So I'll apply what you've taught me and uh, let 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:50.080 you know how it goes. We'll report back on the 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:52.560 next asked the Eagle. Segment there, yeah, there you go. 0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:55.680 Let me know, let me know what close on Instagram. 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.799 I'll get the message right on. Well, hey man, good 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:01.479 luck all your hunt and thanks for calling. Thanks guys, 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:03.680 and thanks so much for the opportunity to you know, 0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:06.000 actually talk to you guys that really appreciate it. And 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:07.680 I wish you well. I wish you will in your 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:10.040 truck purchase, Johnny, and uh so I wish you walked 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:12.920 on your first Thank you so much. All right, man, Thanks, 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:16.760 we'll talk to you soon. Good luck out there, alright, 0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:19.959 asked the Eagle, number one down in the books, done 0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:22.880 one of many. I hope that helps. Is it Brandon 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:27.680 or Brandon brand Man? I kept calling him Brandon? I hope, 0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:30.040 I hope that helps. And sorry, sorry for the name 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:33.759 that you took over my station of calling people the 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:36.680 wrong name consistently people at email into the show, Johnny 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:40.400 now just put out of the phonetic the phonetic version 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:42.359 of their name besides their last name, because I can 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:43.920 never get it right. It could be Smith, and I'll 0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:47.200 be like smithe, it doesn't really matter. Um. All right, Well, 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.600 we're gonna keep rolling on as the Eagle, you know. 0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:51.560 I hope hopefully you guys got a little bit out 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:52.840 of that. If you're going on a back hunter, and 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:54.840 it doesn't matter if it's white tails, doesn't matter if 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.120 it's elk, there's always that how do you pack? How 0:41:57.120 --> 0:41:59.120 do you you know? What do you do? Um? And 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:01.400 so we'll I like those questions that are a layered. 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:03.760 That one had a lot of layers to it. Yohnnie 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:06.319 talked about that for days, for days and days. All right, 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:09.040 Well we're gonna get into We're gonna switch gears here, 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:11.680 We're gonna get into the great and powerful the legendary 0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:15.200 doctor Valarious Geist. I had Dr Hilarious Geist on probably 0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:17.160 a year you know, a little bit less than a 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:19.680 year ago. Last, I believe his last October phil if 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:23.160 if I remember directly, sounds about right. Um, And we 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:25.480 went through everything. We weren't really prepared for him last time. 0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:27.960 We literally went over to an unglick conference that was 0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:30.400 at a hotel across from our office and begged him 0:42:30.440 --> 0:42:32.160 to come over and sit down with me, and then 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:34.799 it went. It was like three magical hours and I 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:37.680 wasn't sure what happened in those hours. Um. So now 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:39.839 he's back and and we definitely want to talk about 0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:43.360 last time. He talked about predator pits, a lot about predation. 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:47.680 He has some controversial within the within the wildlife biology 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:50.960 and management world, at least the modern world. He has 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.320 what I think are some controversial opinions. But we talked 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:57.320 through those and we got him to a point where, um, 0:42:57.400 --> 0:43:00.680 he was speaking about what he believes to be um 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:05.160 intelligent intervention and something that conservation really needs to understand 0:43:05.200 --> 0:43:07.520 a little bit more. So I will just say before 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:09.480 we get into this, I have to issue an apology, 0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:11.880 a pre apology, because I feel like my interviewing skills 0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:16.359 were way off on this one. I did my best 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:18.640 to shepherd through, but it's hard to be on the 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:22.239 phone and Valarious just has so much in there that 0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:25.040 he wants to get out, and so we will do 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:27.960 our I'll do better next time, Johnnie. I promise I'm 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.680 gonna drink more element and be more hydrated. I think 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:34.880 more clearly. I promise I'll do better next time. But anyway, 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:38.760 don't let that dampen your enjoyment of Dr Vlarious Guys. 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:52.279 Dr Guys, welcome back to the show. Sir, thank you. 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:56.000 I'm moving forward to this yeah, very much. So. Uh first, 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:58.680 I guess we should start by just saying, um, I 0:43:58.760 --> 0:44:00.680 hope everything's going well. And co OVID, how are you 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.640 over there on on Vancouver Island. We're doing very well. 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:08.480 The island is virtually COVID free. I just think we 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.080 haven't had a case for a little while. But we're 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:14.840 an island and I am living off in the Boonies, 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:18.480 very far away from everybody else, so I'm very safe 0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:23.080 and I'm treating this as a big vacation. What are 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:24.480 you doing on your vacation? I know you told me 0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:27.040 the other day you were salmon fishing. What what I 0:44:27.719 --> 0:44:33.280 wish I could be vacation with you my vacation. Well, 0:44:34.400 --> 0:44:37.759 I'm now eighty two years old and I'm working on 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:42.120 a very big consuming evolution that's a heck of a 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:44.600 lot of funk, and I've been working at that for 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:48.239 almost two decades. It's called Condemned to Art and Insanity 0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:51.359 our natural History. I don't know if we'll ever see 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.919 the light of day, because at two years of age, 0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:58.600 it's rather difficult for so when that bloody thing gets published. 0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:02.160 But anyway, I'm on that and working on all sorts 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:06.160 of problems pertaining to wolf predation and wolf survival. And 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:09.760 I've got several things in press and have also published 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:12.400 the things. I'd be rather busy, so that's good to 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:14.520 hear that you're busy. Tell me a little about the 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:16.719 human evolution studies and kind of the core of that. 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.440 I didn't expect to talk about that, but I'm very 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:22.520 interested in the topic. Well, I published my first book 0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:26.239 on human evolution forty three years ago, Condemned to Art, 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:32.560 and I retained an interest in human evolution because as 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:36.600 a program director for environmental science at the University of Calgary, 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:40.480 I was trying to find something that would unite in 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:46.640 my lectures, something useful for engineers, for architects, for urban urbanists, 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:49.880 for industrial designers, and so on to forth. And I 0:45:49.920 --> 0:45:52.319 thought the best thing I could speak about is how 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:56.360 to maximize health environmentally. So I started looking into humans, 0:45:56.360 --> 0:45:58.919 and I realized that evolutionary history has something to do 0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:05.440 with our current health status, etcetera. And the natural result 0:46:05.600 --> 0:46:10.040 was that I wrote a rather lengthy book which is 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:15.880 entitled Life Strategies, Human Evolution, Environmental Design Towards the Biological 0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:21.920 Theory of Health in nineteen seventy eight. The interesting thing 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:24.799 about it was this was an interdisciplinary piece of work. 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:28.440 In other words, I went sideways into different disciplines in 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:32.879 order to link things that were significant. And there were 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:36.920 nineteen reviewers of that book, and eighteen of them wrote 0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:40.040 that they could not review it because it was too broad. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.400 It went so far beyond their own reading that they 0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:47.319 could not judge the scholarly validity of it, although it 0:46:47.320 --> 0:46:52.160 looked okay. So what happened was that the Springer Press, 0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:58.680 which finally published it, um started calling other scientists that 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:02.480 do something about me and asked them about my reputation, etcetera. 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:04.640 And on that basis they published the book that tells 0:47:04.640 --> 0:47:08.960 you something about the reviewing process. Yeah, we'ren't publishing here too, 0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:15.120 So I absolutely no old publishing. But do you feel like, um, 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.640 you know, as we move forward as is a conservation 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:19.439 community in the hunting community, do you feel like there's 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:22.880 enough out there on these subjects of our connection with 0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:26.720 human evolution? You know, as as it's very much you have. Indeed, 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:30.799 because like it or not, we're an oxymoron. We're meat 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:38.920 eating vegetarians basically. In other ways, our evolutionary history unfolds 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:43.200 very much like that of other large vegetari mammals that 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:47.080 feed on vegetation primarily. In other ways, we're very similar 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:52.600 in our evolutionary pattern to deer, to elephants, to horses 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:55.799 and so forth, and not at all like primates. We 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:58.360 differed tremendously from primates, but at the same time, we 0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:01.399 differ also tremendously from prime It's because we have had 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:05.800 a long, long history of eating meat, and that is deeply, 0:48:05.880 --> 0:48:10.560 deeply ingrained in our physiology. So UM, as I said, 0:48:10.600 --> 0:48:15.000 we are an oxymoron, we are a meat eating vegetarian. 0:48:16.040 --> 0:48:17.759 That's a good way to put it. I knew we 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:20.160 were axiomaronic. I just didn't didn't think of it in 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:23.959 that way. So we we display axiomoronic characteristics in lots 0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:27.080 of ways, I think. But do you as you look 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.399 at where we are? You know, I know you said, um, yeah, 0:48:30.480 --> 0:48:33.600 you're in your eighties, you're over there on Vancouver Island, 0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:36.560 but you're still working, You're still thinking about critically about 0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:40.400 you know, the conservation, hunting, fishing community. Um, where do 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:42.759 you think we are today? I mean you've seen, you know, 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:46.000 you've seen. We're in a very distressing situation at the 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.960 present time, and that is because a rather malignant environmental 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:55.400 movement has become politically dominant and is ruling the roost 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:59.680 at the present time. The really wonderful system of North 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:05.360 americ and wildlife conservation could not have existed, incidentally, except 0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:09.040 by the virtue that you had exterminated wolves in the 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:12.799 Lord forty eight. We are now learning that if you 0:49:13.000 --> 0:49:18.440 have uncontrolled wolf populations, you basically decimate while that to 0:49:18.440 --> 0:49:22.960 such an extent that hunting is indeed a questionable activity 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:25.359 in the future. Yeah, I want to That's one thing 0:49:25.400 --> 0:49:27.680 that as we've we've gone through since last time we 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:30.560 talked we've We've talked to a lot of folks who 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:32.719 both I think agree and disagree with you on on 0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:37.480 wolves specifically. Well, it's not agreeing or disagreeing. There are 0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:41.239 certain facts. And let me allow a little bit to 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:44.160 open up on what I've been doing lately, because I've 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:47.000 got several things. For instance, I am right now writing 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:51.760 a paper with a Russian um ecologists who is probably 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:58.040 the greatest ecologists on Siberian matters, um and Lenny Baskin 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:03.520 in Moscow. Uh, what we are seeing is in Siberia 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:06.800 and in northern Canada and also in parts of Alaska, 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:11.160 very large areas they are almost depleted of wildlife that 0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:18.719 there's simply biological deserts or and we've been trying to 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:20.759 find out what was the reason behind it. So it's 0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:24.239 a lengthy piece of work in which my colleague and 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.799 I are in total agreement on and it turns out 0:50:26.840 --> 0:50:30.040 to be that the primary cause is a combination of 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:35.319 wolves and grizzly beare predation. You see, wolves in under 0:50:35.320 --> 0:50:39.080 normal circumstances were a rather rare animal because they were 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:43.840 controlled by large caps. Basically, we can still see some 0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:47.719 of that today if you go to Manchuria, whatever. There 0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:51.360 is our Siberian tigers that are virtually no wolves. And 0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:55.400 the tong goose, which honored the tiger greatly in the past, 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.000 made sure there were lots of tigers around because that 0:50:58.080 --> 0:50:59.840 means there were no wolves and there was wild that 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:04.640 available for them. But if you destroy the tiger, wolves 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:08.840 come back. And while that virtue disappears completely, now you 0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:12.080 have an indifference. In an interesting situation, wherever you have 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:17.920 large cats like tigers like the girl forest lion, like 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:21.360 leopards like snow leopards and so on, you have no 0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:24.120 wolves at all, or so very few in the North 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:30.319 that they're considered endangered. You see. So what happened in 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:33.120 price to see extinctions is that the big cats here 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:35.959 on this continent died out. We used to have lions here, 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.440 We used to have saber tooth cats, we had scimitar 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:41.560 cats here, and even before that, we had Siberian tigers, 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:45.200 believe it or not, in Alaska, and wolves are relatively 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:49.440 rare animals in the fossil record, and what it shows 0:51:49.680 --> 0:51:54.440 is that once they the natural enemies of wolves are removed, 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:58.120 they are a very very destructive element, and together with 0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:01.800 grizzly bears even more so because grizzly bears are superlative 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:08.320 at killing neonate, that is, baby baby elk, baby caribou, 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:10.920 baby moose, and so ons the forth. And some beautiful 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:14.279 studies have been made of this in Alaska where they 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:20.600 instrumented bears with with cameras and so they were able 0:52:20.640 --> 0:52:24.640 to follow the visually what the bear was doing over 0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:27.319 a month's time for thirty days. Well, it turns out 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:31.160 that their champion killed about fifty caribou caps at that 0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:34.000 time point, and the one that killed least of all 0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:36.960 in twenty seven days killed only seven, you see, And 0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:39.840 that raises the question how many did that particular that 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:44.360 a champion grizzly bear killed before he was instrumented, and 0:52:44.400 --> 0:52:47.239 how many did he did he kill after he was instrumented. 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:52.440 So what basically we are saying is that when you 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:55.720 have a combination of wolves and grizzly bears, you generate 0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:59.399 a biological desert which stays that way, there's very very 0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:03.720 few ungular available, and the grizzly bears do well because 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:08.239 the vegetation is still available. Wolves do very poorly under 0:53:08.239 --> 0:53:12.480 those circumstances. They eventually virtually vanished completely that the grizzly 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:15.120 bear is able to keep the populations of hunger it's 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:20.239 extremely low by being able to hunt extensively during the 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:24.440 time when they're giving birth and that combination. But by 0:53:24.480 --> 0:53:27.480 the way, this is not exactly news. The Alaska Department 0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.120 Fishing Game has come up with something very similar to that. 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:33.120 Where do you when you think about wolves? And I 0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:35.840 know last time we talked, we talked about things like 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:38.480 I'd added disease and predator pits and some of these 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:40.960 other issues that you've brought up in some of your 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:44.520 talks and some of your writings before and after UM 0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:48.000 and then we also I also visited Yellowster National Park 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:51.680 and also a hunt in an area here in Montana 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:54.040 where I got a trail camp picture of a wolf 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:57.359 not three weeks ago. Have heard them, Yeah, I've heard them. 0:53:57.520 --> 0:53:59.839 It's it's it's that a pretty rare thing. I come 0:53:59.880 --> 0:54:03.040 to well, wolves are relatively hard to find, very hard 0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:06.839 to see, very hard to hunt. I've shot a few 0:54:06.920 --> 0:54:12.319 myself and I've dealt with them. And let's uh, of course, 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:17.120 they are, in from one perspective, a magnificent animal, particularly 0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:19.800 the ones that I saw during my studies of mountain 0:54:19.840 --> 0:54:24.200 sheep in Northern Bridge, Columbia. They were giants, absolutely giants. Yeah, 0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:27.399 and that is very appealing. But when you look at 0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:32.560 the disruptions that we have caused in the global ecology. Yeah, 0:54:32.680 --> 0:54:37.000 what we have done, it's basically unleashed here a predator 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:41.880 that is extremely efficient because it was so severely suppressed 0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:47.279 in earlier times by the large cats. Basically that's why 0:54:47.320 --> 0:54:49.879 this wolf is able to reproduce at a very high rate. 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:52.520 This is why they're so very efficient in their hunting. 0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:58.799 And yeah, it's just simply what we have forgotten in 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:02.600 our wolf man in and so far is the word ecology. 0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:06.319 What we have to do is to look at all 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:10.560 the components of the ecosystem and manage them and not 0:55:10.680 --> 0:55:14.640 simply do as the environmentalists now do have total protection 0:55:14.680 --> 0:55:18.120 of wolves, or have total protection of grizzly bass. That 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:21.440 is a disaster as well as we think about that 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:23.600 in the Greater Yellows and ecosystem, I said, I went 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:27.360 to Yellows National Park with a with a biologist protor 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:30.719 biologists say, a month ago and we track the mountain lion. 0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:35.360 This mountain lion had killed seventeen um meal deer and 0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:40.480 elk about fifteen elk um to mostly neonates and then 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:43.600 to meal there a couple of adults thrown in there. 0:55:43.840 --> 0:55:48.240 It's extremely efficient. Yeah. Yeah, And and as we're talking 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:50.680 about this, I still find that this and this is 0:55:50.719 --> 0:55:52.360 why I wanted to talk to you again because I 0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:55.120 know that you know there are some divergent views here, 0:55:55.160 --> 0:55:58.560 but but I want to make sure that we kind 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:00.880 of get to the center point of of where do 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:03.960 we really think wolves fit in? Because the biologists that 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:07.480 I talked to as we went through this, his appreciation 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:15.120 for wolves on the landscape was was absolute. And so 0:56:15.160 --> 0:56:16.960 that's that's what I took away from it. I want 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:19.759 to speak for him as well. There is whether there's 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:23.919 something missing in this, and that is the following. Um. 0:56:24.719 --> 0:56:28.200 The number of elk before the wolves were released in 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:32.280 Yellowstone in the northern Hood was about nine five hundreds, 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:38.040 uh the the total number where it came down to 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:41.080 around four to five thousand. But the most important thing 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:45.359 is missing in this statement, namely, about three quarters of 0:56:45.400 --> 0:56:48.560 those elk moved out onto private land where they were 0:56:48.600 --> 0:56:51.600 protected from wolves. Now, the words Yellowstone is a very 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:54.800 poor example because here predation cannot go to the extreme 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:59.440 limit because the wolves because the elk are able to 0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:02.400 take rect huge on private land. Well, yellow Stone is 0:57:02.440 --> 0:57:05.280 the very interesting example, and I'm very glad you've introduced 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:08.080 wolves there, believe me or not. And that may sound odd, 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:12.160 but yes, indeed, because this is a time for us 0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:15.439 to learn and to learn thoroughly about what is going 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:19.360 on and to take consequent steps. And I must say 0:57:19.360 --> 0:57:21.880 that the Alaska Fish and Game Department has gone to 0:57:21.960 --> 0:57:25.560 the full length of it. They basically recognized, Yes, yes, 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:29.040 we have in Alaska last areas in which wolves and 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:33.920 grizzly bears keep the moose and caribou at a very 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:36.600 very low level. But that doesn't really matter because there's 0:57:36.640 --> 0:57:42.720 no people there where we require caribou and moose. Because 0:57:42.760 --> 0:57:45.880 people are there, we can't control both of those predators, 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:49.040 and we do, and that's exactly what they're doing. And 0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:50.800 by the way, I better tell you something else, which 0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:54.560 is rather cute. I've been looking at human evolution, as 0:57:54.560 --> 0:58:00.000 you are aware of, and I noticed that UM particularly 0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:05.560 focus my attention on the colonization of Europe by modern 0:58:05.600 --> 0:58:10.440 people and the decline and extinction of neanderthal Man that 0:58:10.400 --> 0:58:15.080 happened thereafter. But there was something that became rather odd, 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:19.200 namely that the geneticists were saying that with the entry 0:58:19.240 --> 0:58:24.880 of human beings into Europe, the wolves went into a 0:58:24.880 --> 0:58:28.960 genetic bottleneck, and that always means that they were very, 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:33.520 very severely reduced in number. And what happened next was 0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:36.560 I found from from another paper that the size of 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:43.480 the wolves after human beings modern people entered Europe became 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:47.000 very large. They increased in the dimensioned by at least 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:50.600 ten percent, which means they virtually doubled in weight. Wow. 0:58:51.760 --> 0:58:54.280 So if you reduce wolves and you have an increase 0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.240 in giant is um well that's what I experienced in 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:00.680 the past. The at the same time, I'm the human 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:07.160 population uh increased by about tenfolds two maybe fifteen fold 0:59:07.320 --> 0:59:11.640 or more compared to the Neanderthal population. So you have 0:59:11.800 --> 0:59:15.760 here an interesting set of circumstances. The human population becomes 0:59:16.280 --> 0:59:20.160 very very large, and all they're living on is primarily reindeer. 0:59:20.480 --> 0:59:23.040 The bones we find is franger bones. They also eat mammoth, 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:28.120 They want to eat horses and bison occasionally, but most 0:59:28.160 --> 0:59:31.240 of their food comes from the reindeer. So what the 0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:36.080 logical logical explanation is that these modern human beings forty 0:59:36.080 --> 0:59:40.960 tho years ago came into the landscape occupied by Neanderthals. 0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:44.280 And the difference they made was they went after the 0:59:44.320 --> 0:59:48.800 wolves and controlled them. And the way they controlled them 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:52.360 was of course the first we can guess about that, 0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:55.720 because the universal way to control wolves is to go 0:59:55.800 --> 1:00:00.200 after the wolves dens and destroy them. And but at 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:05.560 the same time, these early modern people in Europe began 1:00:06.040 --> 1:00:13.480 had a cult of um associating with lions, and something 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:17.640 rather interesting followed. I began to look around, what is 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:20.680 the relationship of large cats with human beings? And I 1:00:20.800 --> 1:00:23.920 just told you the tung goos in Manchuria loved the 1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:28.280 tiger because they kept the wolves down. And in Africa 1:00:28.560 --> 1:00:31.360 we discovered that wherever there are hunting dogs and woo 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:37.080 and lions, lions love to ambush hunting dogs, kill them, 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:40.320 carry them around like trophies, but don't eat them. And 1:00:40.320 --> 1:00:43.959 then there was a very interesting study which is documented 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:48.560 and deposited in Washington with this Newsonian Institute. And this 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:52.280 was a study there which is now impossible to do 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:56.960 because the circumstances have changed. Where cool bushman in the 1:00:57.000 --> 1:01:01.400 Kalahari Desert lived around a war, the whole together with 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:05.200 the pride of lions and humans and lions got along 1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:09.000 completely well. There was no predation on the lions, there 1:01:09.040 --> 1:01:12.960 was no killing by humans, there was a mutual respect relationship. 1:01:13.320 --> 1:01:17.240 When the anthropologists first arrived on the scene, the lions 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:20.640 were roaring. Didn't like it, apparently, and they discovered the 1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:24.120 following morning that there were pug marks around every single 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:30.160 sleeping bag of the anthropologists. They showed they filmed an 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:38.440 interesting situation in which the kung had wounded and disabled 1:01:38.640 --> 1:01:42.960 a wilder least with poisoned arrows, and by the time 1:01:43.120 --> 1:01:47.240 they arrived at the wilderbeast, it was surrounded by lions. Well, 1:01:47.320 --> 1:01:50.480 the hunters went in with their spears, killed the wilde beast, 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:53.439 talked to the lions, dismembered the wilderbeast, and walked away 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:56.360 with the wildebeest, and the lions did nothing. So what 1:01:56.480 --> 1:02:00.960 we're having here is the first hint of how human 1:02:01.000 --> 1:02:05.440 beings made use of predators, which was court later undone 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.960 when we already the gravitition, which is still modern people 1:02:10.360 --> 1:02:13.960 thirty thousand years ago. So in Europe they began taming 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:19.200 wolves into dogs, and then subsequently to that we've had 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:22.240 falconry where we've made use of a predator to our end, 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:25.360 and we've also tamed cheetahs in order to make them 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:33.920 superlative hunters of gazelles and antelope. The most astonishing example 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.920 from came from Australia, and there are two books written 1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:41.520 about this, is where killer whales cooperated with fishermen in 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:45.240 the hunting of belleen whales and even helped the fishermen 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:49.200 tow the dead whale towards shore. And the reward for 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:51.920 the killer whales was they got the lips and the 1:02:52.040 --> 1:02:56.760 tongue of the baleen whales. So we have here predators 1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:00.880 and humans cooperating. And I have aggested and it's been 1:03:00.880 --> 1:03:03.440 published in English already and it's right now in publication. 1:03:03.480 --> 1:03:07.160 And women that in the upper in the Upper Pliolithic, 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:11.280 early Upper Polytics, these first people in Europe, the organzations 1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:16.040 made use of lions. Uh. Actually, it doesn't take much 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.160 to find out how you could make use of lions. 1:03:18.240 --> 1:03:23.000 If lions ambush wolves, then human beings can help them 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:25.320 with the ambush. All we have to do is imitate 1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:28.560 the howling of wolves. So you're saying lions, lions and 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:32.760 humans work together. Yeah, exactly just like in the Colahari Desert, 1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:35.320 lions and humans were together and the humans said, the 1:03:35.360 --> 1:03:39.440 lions are protecting us at night from predators, from panthers 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:42.960 and from hyenas. I have never set up in this 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:45.920 episode institution. Yeah, well, you know, we haven't looked at 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:49.360 that angle. We've always thought of wolves and lions and 1:03:49.440 --> 1:03:53.120 predators in the negative sense, but we've also used them 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:55.520 in a very positive sense. And the net result of 1:03:55.560 --> 1:03:57.960 that is that wonderful creation that we made out of 1:03:58.000 --> 1:04:01.680 the wolf the dog. Yeah, the two at all. Oh yeah, 1:04:01.680 --> 1:04:03.480 I've got a little one looking at me right now, 1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:05.880 and I wouldn't be and I'm so glad she's not 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:09.880 the wolf. The irony, I love it. Um Well, you 1:04:09.920 --> 1:04:12.560 see this is ironic. But this is what happens when 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:16.800 you do some homework. And this is what we need 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:20.040 and what we cannot have in the but we do 1:04:20.200 --> 1:04:23.480 have in modern society. But anybody with or without any 1:04:24.400 --> 1:04:27.520 background is shouting off on social media, and how do 1:04:27.560 --> 1:04:31.160 you tell the difference. Yeah, well that's what that's what 1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:33.840 really what I'm trying to do. Um As I said, 1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:37.360 I'm a layman. I I am count myself a conservationist. 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:39.120 I now live in a place where I'm among these 1:04:39.480 --> 1:04:43.000 charismatic predators, and I appreciate them on both the levels 1:04:43.080 --> 1:04:45.640 we we kind of touched on earlier. And there, as 1:04:45.640 --> 1:04:49.400 you said, there is this complicated history where we obviously 1:04:49.600 --> 1:04:52.240 you know, worked with them, and then you know at 1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:54.320 the time in the turn of the century, we were 1:04:54.400 --> 1:04:58.480 vilifying them everything from kind reifying them a hell of 1:04:58.480 --> 1:05:03.320 a lot earlier because wolves without control, yeah, were a 1:05:03.400 --> 1:05:06.760 scourge of the land. And some of the best modern 1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:10.320 scholarship and this comes from out of France, where they 1:05:10.480 --> 1:05:14.720 had in record, now, in detailed record, over ten thousand 1:05:14.800 --> 1:05:21.520 cases where wolves attacked human beings and uh soa is 1:05:21.560 --> 1:05:25.400 the name of the professor that's leading this work. In 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:30.080 an interview, he said that if the documentation in France 1:05:30.160 --> 1:05:34.320 were not so badly damaged by wars, because so much 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:36.560 of the documentation was in churches, for instance, many of 1:05:36.560 --> 1:05:38.920 them were burned down during the many, many wars that 1:05:38.960 --> 1:05:43.120 the Europeans had there, he was sure that they would 1:05:43.160 --> 1:05:46.240 have a documentation of over a hundred thousand, ten times 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:50.720 what they have today. So the we have also excellent 1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:55.360 documentation right across the globe. Whatever wolves and human beings 1:05:55.400 --> 1:05:58.120 have come together. The only way that we could exist 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.800 is by very very stringent control of wolves. And one 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:07.280 of the most interesting things is Japan. The Japanese um 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:16.280 farmers eulogized wolves because they were the only way they 1:06:16.280 --> 1:06:21.640 had to reduce the damage to their fields. You see. Uh, 1:06:21.760 --> 1:06:25.760 the Japanese disarmed their citizens, and so the farmers had 1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:28.960 no weapons and they could not kill and hunt wolves 1:06:30.160 --> 1:06:32.160 or part of me. They could not have pigs and 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:36.160 deer which were ravaging their fields. So what they did 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:40.200 is they attracted wolves, and they eulogized wolves to the 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:43.120 point of making them a deity. So that was a 1:06:43.360 --> 1:06:47.439 very very positive outlook of human beings towards wolves because 1:06:47.480 --> 1:06:50.800 they were helping them to maintaining their crops. And then 1:06:51.440 --> 1:06:56.400 then came brabies. Now rabies is a horrible disease, absolutely 1:06:56.440 --> 1:07:00.040 incredible when it strikes. Yeah, and what did the Japanese do. 1:07:00.520 --> 1:07:04.919 By nineteen o five, they had exterminated the wolf. You see, 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:07.520 you don't have to exterminate anything. When I was in 1:07:07.560 --> 1:07:13.240 the Northern Bridge, Columbia, we had unbelievable wild of the populations, 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:17.160 but we also had wolves, and we do not have wolves. 1:07:17.760 --> 1:07:22.640 When you allow so called nature to take its uh course, 1:07:23.000 --> 1:07:25.760 and you allow wolves and grizzly best to multiply because 1:07:25.760 --> 1:07:29.200 eventually virtually have only grizzly Best and then a very 1:07:29.280 --> 1:07:31.600 very very few wolves and a very very few ungulates 1:07:31.920 --> 1:07:36.520 in that system. And it is for all practically while 1:07:36.560 --> 1:07:44.560 that that's unusable by human beings. You know, bring it 1:07:44.560 --> 1:07:48.400 even back to to our relationship with predators, specifically wolves 1:07:48.400 --> 1:07:52.880 and every other apex predator that we've talked about carnivore 1:07:52.880 --> 1:07:56.160 that we've talked about. There there is you know, just 1:07:56.200 --> 1:07:57.720 by all the stories that you've told and all the 1:07:57.720 --> 1:08:00.680 readings that you've done, and the vast analogy of the 1:08:00.800 --> 1:08:04.600 natural history of this continent and in the world, that 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:09.560 we are just left with this very complex, very interesting 1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:11.600 that's why we talk about it here, so much, very 1:08:11.640 --> 1:08:14.600 interesting relationship with these animals. You know, what do you 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:17.040 think we should be doing in North America when it 1:08:17.080 --> 1:08:19.400 comes to but I think we should be doing is 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:26.160 maximizing by diversity and maximizing productivity on the land so 1:08:26.200 --> 1:08:28.840 that people can take advantage of that. And there is 1:08:28.840 --> 1:08:33.080 absolutely no reason why we should not have wolves, okay, 1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:36.080 or mountain lines. But what you have to do is 1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:40.240 you have to have a system of controls that makes 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:43.320 that ensures that everything is alive and well, and we 1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:47.599 had that in the past when I was the youngest zoologist. Well, 1:08:47.600 --> 1:08:49.839 the first day I went deer hunting, I saw twenty 1:08:49.880 --> 1:08:53.040 six deer. I missed eight bucks because I was then 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:56.040 not very skilled at running shots. I had the wrong 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:58.840 image in that and I killed my five point buck. 1:08:59.200 --> 1:09:02.639 The next day. You've seen when I shot my first 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:07.080 and last, very very large bull moose on December twenty 1:09:07.160 --> 1:09:10.960 three in Wealth Great Park, I was lying on top 1:09:11.000 --> 1:09:14.920 of a snow corners looking down the slope onto a 1:09:15.000 --> 1:09:18.600 bar large burn and my friend was my away with 1:09:18.680 --> 1:09:23.120 the spotting scope. While looking towards me, he counted thirty 1:09:23.120 --> 1:09:26.160 six mouths on that slope. Well, this is almost unbelievable. 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.960 Today we were seeing at that time thirty bull moose 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:35.200 a day, and there were wolves in that countryside. We 1:09:35.280 --> 1:09:40.120 heard them and saw them too. We are perfectly capable 1:09:41.400 --> 1:09:45.519 of maintaining a great while they've been great abundance and 1:09:45.600 --> 1:09:49.840 diversity with all the large predators included the grizzly bear, 1:09:49.880 --> 1:09:52.280 the black bear, the cougar, the wolves. We can have 1:09:52.360 --> 1:09:58.639 them all, but we cannot have a single species so 1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:04.599 called protection is UM, which protects grizzly bears at all costs, 1:10:04.960 --> 1:10:07.960 which protects wolves at all costs. Then you get into 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:12.000 the president of situation. That's when you get the wildlife deserts, 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:14.559 and that is when Native people suffered because they don't 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:17.320 have anything to hunt. I think it's a very important 1:10:17.439 --> 1:10:19.439 that you know, as we go through. We talked a 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:22.519 little bit about Colorado. I touched on that. I mean, 1:10:22.560 --> 1:10:26.120 they are about to in this November vote on Initiative 1:10:26.160 --> 1:10:30.720 one oh seven, which will effectively reintroduced wolves into Colorado. 1:10:31.240 --> 1:10:33.519 It isn't a very very stupid thing to do. Should 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:35.680 again to show you that, And so I want to 1:10:35.760 --> 1:10:38.680 kind of there's a coalition of of of these nonprofit 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:42.320 protectionist groups as you as you say in Colorado that 1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:46.480 they were led by UM, the Foreign Rocky Mountain Wolf Project. 1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:50.639 They spent nineteen They tiresly gathered support. You could see 1:10:50.680 --> 1:10:52.760 them on on sides of the road. There's pictures of them. 1:10:52.920 --> 1:10:56.280 They got two d THO signatures and they delivered that 1:10:56.640 --> 1:10:59.160 delivered that the Secretary of State. So these are people 1:10:59.240 --> 1:11:02.200 that don't be of costs of that introduction. It's the 1:11:02.280 --> 1:11:05.880 ranchers to do, and it's the huntless. We the Democrats 1:11:05.960 --> 1:11:10.280 or Republicans that also do You're gonna you cannot, you 1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:13.200 cannot maintain your North American system wilt conservation with the 1:11:13.280 --> 1:11:16.559 free for all for wolves and grizzly bears. You can't possible. 1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:19.200 What do you what do you say to those people? 1:11:19.360 --> 1:11:20.960 If if you're right, if you let's just say, you 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:22.840 run into one of these guys on the street, it's 1:11:22.840 --> 1:11:26.599 hold the sign. With this protectionism for wolves, we need 1:11:26.640 --> 1:11:30.200 more wolves for this state to be wild. Put it 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:34.599 this way. I have been writing a book on human evolution. 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:36.960 I guess I told you the title Condemned to Art 1:11:37.040 --> 1:11:43.479 and Insanity. Yeah, I guess your I guess very Yeah. 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:47.479 Well this is and these are belief systems. I mean, 1:11:47.520 --> 1:11:50.880 there are people believing in good faith that protecting the 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:53.880 wolves will be in nirvana. Well this isn't r Vanna. 1:11:55.160 --> 1:11:58.920 It's an empty landscape, and it is so empty that 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:02.439 even the small disappears. I know that because I've had 1:12:02.560 --> 1:12:06.800 here on Mancover Island and living it right now. All 1:12:06.840 --> 1:12:09.439 the deer are basically in the cities. Some of the 1:12:09.479 --> 1:12:12.200 elk have been able to maintain themselves more or less, 1:12:12.240 --> 1:12:14.400 but the elk here are giants because there are a 1:12:14.560 --> 1:12:18.040 few numbers compared to them out of food, and they're silent. 1:12:18.439 --> 1:12:21.559 They don't call, and they don't bugle, because if you bogle, 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.799 you get on top of yourself's wolves and cougars and bears. 1:12:24.800 --> 1:12:28.160 And I have eat bugled in black bears myself. At 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:29.920 the same time, look at the same thing. What we've 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:34.320 done now with the marine environment, total protection of whales, seals, 1:12:34.400 --> 1:12:36.880 sea lions and so on, has resulted in very large 1:12:37.080 --> 1:12:42.200 burgeoning populations of seals and sea lions. A kayaker just 1:12:42.280 --> 1:12:46.200 a few weeks ago told me he was quite amazed. 1:12:46.680 --> 1:12:49.360 He came to a with his kayak to the entrance 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:51.640 of a small creek into the ocean, and this was 1:12:51.720 --> 1:12:54.880 all surrounded by seals which were busily picking up all 1:12:54.880 --> 1:13:00.160 the little salmon that were coming downstream into the ocean. Gone, 1:13:00.680 --> 1:13:03.320 when I was a young students at Juis of Bridge, Columbia, 1:13:03.400 --> 1:13:07.120 we had still a control of seals, very large amounts 1:13:07.160 --> 1:13:11.559 of salmon and salmon populations everywhere of faltering. Well if 1:13:11.600 --> 1:13:16.599 you don't, if you have predators that feed steadily on salmon, 1:13:16.680 --> 1:13:19.880 what do you expect. In other ways, we can enter 1:13:20.320 --> 1:13:25.200 as a regulatory agency and we can ensure that everybody survives, 1:13:26.120 --> 1:13:29.880 including the prey. We have the means to do that. Yeah, 1:13:29.920 --> 1:13:33.040 sustainable use of a natural resource. When you speak out 1:13:33.080 --> 1:13:36.559 like this on wolves that people feel feel so passionate 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:38.519 about them and protecting them and seeing more of them 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:40.880 on landscapes, do you feel like people aren't listening? Do 1:13:40.920 --> 1:13:43.519 you feel like people I don't want to hear. No, 1:13:43.680 --> 1:13:48.600 I know people are, people are listening. The bit of 1:13:48.640 --> 1:13:54.080 the problem is, of course, the your news services. Yeah, 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:59.160 I guess they are afraid that there subcription rates will 1:13:59.200 --> 1:14:04.160 tumble the report something that is not exactly in the 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:09.160 right now. Environmentalism is a very very popular notion and 1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:13.840 the great dream of some of the environmentalists is to 1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:19.360 see what they call wilderness around across everything, with human 1:14:19.400 --> 1:14:23.040 beings confined to very small spaces and so that nature 1:14:23.160 --> 1:14:26.040 could once again range supreme or much of the land. 1:14:26.040 --> 1:14:31.640 That's part of their dreams I see, and what it 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:37.479 means is, uh, well to achieve that. I don't know 1:14:37.520 --> 1:14:41.719 how you could possibly have any number of people without 1:14:42.479 --> 1:14:45.519 the use of the land in the economic activities. I mean, 1:14:45.560 --> 1:14:49.519 it's a very very simplistic ideas. But these kind of 1:14:49.560 --> 1:14:53.559 ideas or the the Another thing is the promotion that 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:58.360 the human beings are evil and that nature is good, 1:14:59.640 --> 1:15:02.320 and so if we constrain humans, we do something very 1:15:02.320 --> 1:15:04.600 good for nature. Well, the trouble, of course, is that 1:15:05.520 --> 1:15:08.040 you haven't had anything natural now for twelve thousand years 1:15:08.040 --> 1:15:11.320 on this continent when you look around the countryside. This 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:18.000 is all secondarily consequences of human activity. Your native your 1:15:18.080 --> 1:15:23.759 native Colorado, your native North America vanished with the Little 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:27.880 Ice Age top thousand years ago period. Well, we've seen 1:15:27.920 --> 1:15:30.439 this with with the COVID N teen pandemic. We've seen 1:15:31.520 --> 1:15:33.680 when you try to confine people to their homes there 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:36.360 naturally want to go outside. They naturally want to enjoy 1:15:37.000 --> 1:15:40.160 place wonderful and and I'm all in fable, I also 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:41.680 want to go outside. And in fact, I'm living on 1:15:41.720 --> 1:15:45.240 a very beautiful place away from the city. I'm surrounded 1:15:45.240 --> 1:15:48.160 by nature all the time. I have uh, I've had 1:15:48.160 --> 1:15:51.799 wolves here under my doorstep and cougar's on my doorstep. 1:15:51.880 --> 1:15:53.800 We don't have grizzly bears here, God thanks, but we 1:15:53.880 --> 1:15:58.760 do have black bears. And yes, I can enjoy all 1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:00.519 of it. But we have too many hugs at the 1:16:00.520 --> 1:16:04.240 present time, and so the number of rights of blacktail 1:16:04.320 --> 1:16:07.960 dealers way way way down everywhere except in cities where 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:12.000 they've taken refuge from Hollywood. That's what do you find 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:16.160 some of the most biggest bucks on Vancouver Island right 1:16:16.200 --> 1:16:18.920 downtown and it's a yeah, what a beautiful what a 1:16:18.920 --> 1:16:21.000 beautiful island as well. But yeah, go back to go 1:16:21.080 --> 1:16:23.120 back to the pandemic issue, because it's kind of rayed 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:27.400 some interesting points that that you're discussing here. We've seen 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:31.280 national parks, we've seen state parks, we've seen wilderness areas, 1:16:31.800 --> 1:16:35.280 especially in Canada, but across the United States, and you know, 1:16:35.280 --> 1:16:38.960 there are reports out of Alberta and Quebec of you know, 1:16:39.160 --> 1:16:42.920 human feces and garbage and people camping in ditches and 1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:46.240 hundreds of cars and parking lots when when folks were 1:16:46.280 --> 1:16:49.200 locked down and they couldn't travel to other provinces or states, 1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:55.400 they simply retreated to to these places that we you know, 1:16:55.479 --> 1:16:58.639 these ecosystems, these fragile environments that we try to manage 1:16:59.000 --> 1:17:01.080 and keep His pristine as we can, and it's caused 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:04.040 lots of problems and so there's an interesting discussion there 1:17:04.120 --> 1:17:07.320 is to as to your point earlier, Um, you know 1:17:07.400 --> 1:17:10.200 what's bad and what's good here, and what's what's what's 1:17:10.240 --> 1:17:12.120 real and you know what's fake in terms of what 1:17:12.160 --> 1:17:16.439 you're being told. Well, the COVID situation is going to pass. 1:17:17.560 --> 1:17:20.640 It's not going to take. It's not We still have 1:17:21.000 --> 1:17:23.519 some while to deal with it, but it will pass 1:17:24.960 --> 1:17:28.560 and we are going to get back to normality eventually. 1:17:29.400 --> 1:17:33.960 And we also have to face something very unhappy, and 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:37.400 that is before the COVID christis struck, we were already 1:17:37.439 --> 1:17:42.479 aware that our national parks, particularly in your country, we're 1:17:42.520 --> 1:17:47.160 losing bio diversity, and that is that it loss about 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:51.400 diversity means that plants and animals are going extinct, and 1:17:51.600 --> 1:17:54.759 that you had a free for all in these parks 1:17:54.760 --> 1:17:58.840 for invasive species, of which according to the website of 1:17:58.880 --> 1:18:01.759 the United States National Parks, there were over six thousand, 1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:07.320 five hundred species. So irrespect of the COVID, we have 1:18:07.479 --> 1:18:12.280 a very real problem about a philosophy of non intervention 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:17.880 in nature. As long as we do non intervention, other 1:18:17.960 --> 1:18:25.520 things intervened. And the only way to literally safeguard biodiversity 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:30.760 and maintained a live species which are going extinct is 1:18:30.800 --> 1:18:35.200 by human very intelligent interference. I have a friend in 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:42.120 California who about thirty years ago bought acres of land 1:18:42.680 --> 1:18:46.240 on which she counted sixties species of plants. Then he 1:18:46.360 --> 1:18:50.240 began to change the landscape in the sense that he 1:18:50.280 --> 1:18:54.479 was trying to get back by diversity and bring to 1:18:54.680 --> 1:18:59.400 light and to fruition seed which were lying dormant in 1:18:59.439 --> 1:19:03.080 the soil. And after thirty years he has two hundred 1:19:03.080 --> 1:19:06.640 and thirty five native species of plants and hundred and 1:19:06.640 --> 1:19:10.800 thirty five non native species of plants. That's what human 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:17.759 intelligent human intervention means, whereas non intervention means the simply 1:19:17.800 --> 1:19:21.519 the decline and extinction of many of our sensitive species, 1:19:22.200 --> 1:19:27.760 reduction by diversity and take over by invasive species. That's 1:19:27.800 --> 1:19:32.679 what we have faced. Our idea of letting hands often, 1:19:32.760 --> 1:19:38.200 letting nature do its thing is a catastrophic failure. Not entirely, 1:19:39.200 --> 1:19:41.920 there are really times when you need to do it, 1:19:42.200 --> 1:19:47.240 but as a unifying philosophy of dealing with nature, it 1:19:47.479 --> 1:19:54.519 simply means that we allow other species, undesirable species many regards, 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:59.479 take over the landscape. In order to maintain beauty and 1:19:59.560 --> 1:20:03.400 by the city, we have to come in and manage 1:20:03.439 --> 1:20:07.360 with fire, with an axe, with a rifle and shotgun 1:20:07.400 --> 1:20:10.200 and net and the times poisons. We have to do 1:20:10.280 --> 1:20:13.360 that and then we can maintain what is well. The 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:16.080 French said it quite correctly, said, if you want to 1:20:16.120 --> 1:20:18.920 have a beautiful park, you need a very sharp axe 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:23.000 and the heart of stone. Yeah, then you're gonna have 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:27.519 a beautiful park. Yeah. Well, if if folks listening I 1:20:27.640 --> 1:20:29.639 didn't just hear that, rewind and listen to it again, 1:20:29.680 --> 1:20:33.360 because that's about it is, wonderfully stated. I've heard about 1:20:33.360 --> 1:20:36.639 how we can as humans cohabitate and balance the world 1:20:36.640 --> 1:20:38.720 in which we live, because that's well, we have to 1:20:38.760 --> 1:20:41.200 do it, and we have to do it intelligently, and 1:20:41.280 --> 1:20:44.599 we can do it. That's the whole point. Yes, protection 1:20:44.720 --> 1:20:47.960 ism that's brought back whales and a lot of marine life. 1:20:48.320 --> 1:20:51.240 And now we have to judge how much protection is 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:55.880 required to generate and what protection is required and what 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:59.519 actions are required to enhance different species so that we 1:20:59.600 --> 1:21:03.160 do have high bio diversity. We can do it. We 1:21:03.240 --> 1:21:05.600 have the means to do it, and when we have 1:21:05.640 --> 1:21:09.320 a question, we can always have an experimental setting and explore. 1:21:10.240 --> 1:21:14.000 What we cannot do is to have faith that nature 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:18.000 is going to somehow maintained by a diversity and duty, 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:21.479 which doesn't well, I want to I think all of 1:21:21.479 --> 1:21:26.120 this connects to your book with Shane Mahoney, the North 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:30.720 American Model of Wildlife Conservation. And I'll just tell you. 1:21:30.880 --> 1:21:32.360 I know we talked about this a bit last time 1:21:32.400 --> 1:21:35.360 you were in the studio, but the North American model 1:21:35.400 --> 1:21:38.040 of conservation is something that i've i've we speak about 1:21:38.080 --> 1:21:42.160 often on this show that i've I've really think you should. Yeah, 1:21:42.240 --> 1:21:45.840 that's wonderful, it is, UM And you know, and I 1:21:45.880 --> 1:21:48.160 know your book talks about the strength and its weaknesses 1:21:48.240 --> 1:21:52.519 and in in in great way and we wanted to 1:21:53.240 --> 1:21:55.439 UM for a long time on the show, have a 1:21:55.479 --> 1:21:58.960 book club and talk about some of these really important issues. 1:21:59.160 --> 1:22:01.160 And the Northern a model is something that I think 1:22:01.160 --> 1:22:03.920 a lot of people understand, but a lot of people misunderstand, 1:22:04.240 --> 1:22:07.320 and even more people have no idea about how it 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:09.280 came to be or what it is or what it's 1:22:09.320 --> 1:22:13.080 meant to do. UM. And I think this book that 1:22:13.120 --> 1:22:17.719 you've put together with with Shane, if everyone I asked 1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:20.160 everyone to read it about two months ago. I said, 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:21.559 get this book and read it and then we're going 1:22:21.600 --> 1:22:25.439 to talk to dr guys about it. So if you 1:22:25.680 --> 1:22:27.720 if you'll allow us. Well, I would like to just 1:22:27.760 --> 1:22:30.000 go through it a little bit and discuss some of 1:22:30.040 --> 1:22:32.679 what's in there, and then you know, discuss what well. 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:36.160 I'm a little bit. Yes, I'm the core I editor 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:38.759 of it and the author of one of the chapters 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:41.599 of it, and I haven't looked at it for some 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:44.120 time because I've been so very very busy with other matters, 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:47.400 particularly on the human front. Because as I said, I'm 1:22:48.040 --> 1:22:51.280 editing now my book condemned to author insanity. I've picked 1:22:51.280 --> 1:22:53.840 twenty years on it. So that's I've been busy, and 1:22:53.880 --> 1:22:57.720 I'm busy other things. So, um, I may be u 1:22:58.840 --> 1:23:03.120 um faulted from remembering too well, let's try it. Let's 1:23:03.240 --> 1:23:05.160 let's give it a try. I think I think most 1:23:05.200 --> 1:23:08.040 of the things in here are elementary to all your work. 1:23:08.120 --> 1:23:10.759 So I imagine if you don't remember the exact sens, 1:23:10.800 --> 1:23:15.040 you'll you'll understand some of the questions and things that. Okay, 1:23:15.160 --> 1:23:16.640 I wanted to go through. Let's let's give it a 1:23:16.680 --> 1:23:21.040 shot here. Um, the book, you know, in talking about 1:23:21.040 --> 1:23:22.920 the model, the book does a lot of things, but 1:23:22.960 --> 1:23:27.600 I think in general, it looks at the model's strength weaknesses, 1:23:27.640 --> 1:23:31.880 and it considers, you know, it's relevancy and efficacy and 1:23:32.000 --> 1:23:36.679 all the things that it touches because it does touch history, politics, culture, 1:23:37.120 --> 1:23:42.559 societies and so yeah, because before we have specific questions here, 1:23:43.040 --> 1:23:45.320 when you think about the model today, what do you 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:51.120 think of? Well, the model is basically a model that 1:23:51.240 --> 1:23:57.679 assumes that the greater population of the nation has access 1:23:57.720 --> 1:24:02.519 to wildlife and we'll use this wildlife in the consumptive fashion. 1:24:02.800 --> 1:24:04.519 In other way, it's not only do we enjoy it 1:24:04.560 --> 1:24:06.960 a life, we also enjoy it on our dinner table. 1:24:08.280 --> 1:24:10.400 That is the basis of it. It makes the assumption 1:24:10.680 --> 1:24:15.960 that going out and raising wildlife for human consumption is 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:19.360 a good thing, and that's what it was in the past. 1:24:19.439 --> 1:24:23.960 As long as that philosophy is relevant, as long as 1:24:24.000 --> 1:24:28.720 that model will survive. But it cannot survive protectionism and 1:24:28.840 --> 1:24:32.320 it fails. Yes, well, when we when you when we 1:24:32.360 --> 1:24:35.559 start with this book, we start about you know this, 1:24:35.560 --> 1:24:40.439 This book goes all over time, um, but it talks 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:43.759 about this revolutionary approach that in the late nineteenth century 1:24:43.760 --> 1:24:49.519 and early twentieth century Canada, United States came together and 1:24:49.680 --> 1:24:53.439 rather than treating wildlife for the purview of the elites, 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:56.080 is to be used for the benefit of the pleasure. 1:24:56.960 --> 1:24:59.519 We're we're now switching this dichotomy and we're saying it's 1:24:59.600 --> 1:25:02.720 we're going use this for the people. That's correct. And 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:05.559 that is the remarkable thing about the North American model. 1:25:06.120 --> 1:25:08.519 That's why it is so outstanding a model, you know, 1:25:08.880 --> 1:25:12.800 because what it shows that the common ownership of wildlife 1:25:13.000 --> 1:25:16.280 can be of an enormous benefit to a nation, whereas 1:25:16.320 --> 1:25:19.920 previously it was assumed that if you had a comments 1:25:19.960 --> 1:25:24.760 that comments would deteriorate because everybody had access to it 1:25:24.800 --> 1:25:28.880 and destroyed it in part. And there is a large, 1:25:29.080 --> 1:25:32.759 very famous, not large for very famous paper, the Tragedy 1:25:32.800 --> 1:25:35.960 of the Comments, which was written about it, remember in 1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:38.720 his moment the author. But the proof of the North 1:25:38.760 --> 1:25:44.080 American model is that you can have ownership of land 1:25:44.160 --> 1:25:46.800 and wild land in common, and it can be constructive 1:25:47.080 --> 1:25:50.120 and it can be a thing of beauty and productivity 1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:53.559 and of generating great wealth at the same time. It's 1:25:53.560 --> 1:25:56.120 a real blessing there really is. I mean, it shows 1:25:56.160 --> 1:25:58.160 it's such a value system as much as is a 1:25:58.200 --> 1:26:01.519 system of conservation and those things that you explained or intertwined, well, 1:26:01.720 --> 1:26:04.799 just imagine the number of people that are employed because 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:09.000 of that model, and just think of the tremendous innovations 1:26:09.040 --> 1:26:12.679 that you have generated in archery, for instance. Yeah. Yeah, 1:26:13.120 --> 1:26:17.840 it's unbelievable how things have changed, and that has given 1:26:20.160 --> 1:26:23.639 livelihoods to quite a few people. The same thing with 1:26:23.920 --> 1:26:27.040 the firearms or the clothing or the other equipment that 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:31.200 has to to be used. It is a tremendous boost 1:26:31.360 --> 1:26:34.400 to the economy to have wildlife. If the violet that 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:36.840 is being used by the public at large, but it 1:26:36.880 --> 1:26:39.360 has to be used, not just simply simply you look 1:26:39.400 --> 1:26:41.960 at it's something you use. Yeah, I mean, I think 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:45.240 as you as we You know that agreement, the agreement 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:47.160 you talked about in the beginning, and you know it's 1:26:47.200 --> 1:26:49.439 talked about in the book quite a lot, the agreement 1:26:49.479 --> 1:26:52.280 that we're we're going forward this understanding that we are 1:26:52.320 --> 1:26:57.920 going to both conserve and use um these resources at 1:26:57.920 --> 1:27:00.320 the same time. And that's where the balance comes in. 1:27:01.040 --> 1:27:03.160 Um it's core to this and that I think that 1:27:03.600 --> 1:27:06.880 present and that ain't the North American model. It kind 1:27:06.880 --> 1:27:09.559 of gives us a vision and for me, a hopeful 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:12.120 vision of the kind of the challenges of the future 1:27:12.120 --> 1:27:15.639 for conservation. And the book helps with that too. Yes, 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:18.200 and I'm you see I also have to go back 1:27:18.240 --> 1:27:21.720 a little bit to a time when the use of 1:27:21.800 --> 1:27:25.680 weapons was looked at in a different way than this today. 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:28.800 And you had it in the You had it in 1:27:28.800 --> 1:27:31.280 your rural areas where the kids took the twenty two 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:34.120 to school and they did their hunting on the way 1:27:34.120 --> 1:27:37.000 back around the way to school, and they brought things 1:27:37.280 --> 1:27:40.519 to on the for the family table. I did that 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:47.160 when I was a teenager in Canada. Yeah, and my 1:27:47.240 --> 1:27:51.559 grandmother and I had a wonderful relationship precisely because I 1:27:51.640 --> 1:27:54.720 was able to bring in game and fish and it 1:27:54.840 --> 1:27:58.720 was so greatly treasured and valued by the family. I'm 1:27:58.720 --> 1:28:02.360 thinking right now of some of our native people in 1:28:02.560 --> 1:28:05.560 Northern Canada that are faced without wildlife. What do the 1:28:05.640 --> 1:28:08.519 kids do if you cannot go out and get yourself 1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:11.680 a rabbit or some ducks and geese and so once 1:28:11.720 --> 1:28:15.160 of forth, if you find an empty landscape, what do 1:28:15.160 --> 1:28:17.519 you do? Do you smell gasoline? Or do you go 1:28:17.560 --> 1:28:20.760 and commit suicide? That's exactly what the kids were doing. 1:28:20.920 --> 1:28:24.320 You see. Wow, So there is a greater good to 1:28:24.360 --> 1:28:27.599 have wild left around. We are hunters, We are by nature, 1:28:27.840 --> 1:28:34.880 as I stated beginning, an oxymoron, a meat eating vegetarian, 1:28:35.720 --> 1:28:40.280 but we are that. And as long as we maintained 1:28:40.960 --> 1:28:45.880 that in a reasonable fashion, you have a world of 1:28:45.960 --> 1:28:49.200 great beauty and diversity. And we can have that all, 1:28:49.280 --> 1:28:54.040 we can enjoy it, but we cannot have most sort 1:28:54.080 --> 1:29:02.280 of single idea um preservationists attempt dealing with nature that 1:29:02.400 --> 1:29:06.080 leads to disaster. And in the book to you, as 1:29:06.120 --> 1:29:08.800 we've as we've discussed here that it almost seems like 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:11.160 derivative of any discussion like this, that we're going to 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:15.280 delve into the past UM. And in the second chapter 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:20.000 of this book, he starts to ask questions like why 1:29:20.120 --> 1:29:22.679 look at a history of our humanity in these species? 1:29:22.760 --> 1:29:27.120 Why look at um the place to see? Why look 1:29:27.200 --> 1:29:31.679 at Neanderthals? Why look at um the first predation of humans? 1:29:31.720 --> 1:29:35.439 And talk about that these ideas of why we asked 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:38.080 that question, and what we can learn from our history UM, 1:29:38.120 --> 1:29:42.479 and how that the first is a very cautionally lesson, 1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:46.519 and that is that human beings and nature have been 1:29:49.040 --> 1:29:52.680 um in a very unhappy coexistence for about two and 1:29:52.680 --> 1:29:57.360 a half billion years. The very very first humans that 1:29:57.520 --> 1:30:00.160 came about, we're already hunters, and I can descry to 1:30:00.200 --> 1:30:02.599 you what what they were. But the point was that 1:30:02.960 --> 1:30:06.280 the moment they showed up, the biodiversity of the continent 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:10.400 of Africa went downhill and continue to go downhill. And 1:30:10.439 --> 1:30:14.760 it went downhill because eventually we exterminated the megafauna as well, 1:30:15.720 --> 1:30:18.400 and we now are in a situation where we are 1:30:18.439 --> 1:30:22.679 desperately trying to understand how human populations can possibly survive. 1:30:23.520 --> 1:30:28.479 So history is something that teaches us to be very 1:30:28.560 --> 1:30:31.880 very cautious about what we do with nature. We can't. 1:30:31.880 --> 1:30:34.800 We know that we can make nature bloom, and we 1:30:34.920 --> 1:30:38.360 have to do that, but much of the time we've 1:30:38.360 --> 1:30:40.240 been a negative force. And this is where the environment 1:30:40.280 --> 1:30:44.800 that is sitting quite correct about it. So that and 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:47.680 then comes to the point is how did we go 1:30:47.920 --> 1:30:52.200 and interact with nature? And how was it possible that 1:30:53.240 --> 1:30:55.439 human beings were able to flourish in the first place, 1:30:55.439 --> 1:30:59.880 Because human beings are the only primate that can stay 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:05.040 at night on the ground surrounded by large predators and 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:08.320 does not have to climb a tree at night. All 1:31:08.360 --> 1:31:10.880 other primates have to climb trees. We're the only ones 1:31:10.920 --> 1:31:14.080 who don't. So here you're right away are into an 1:31:14.479 --> 1:31:18.720 interesting question what the dickens did we do? Because previously 1:31:18.760 --> 1:31:23.200 to that, we were a prey of many predators, and 1:31:23.560 --> 1:31:27.599 when predators get a taste of human meat today, they 1:31:28.040 --> 1:31:33.000 absolutely continue going after it. Human beings, apparently are the 1:31:33.040 --> 1:31:35.559 cannibals are stating that there is no meat like human meat. 1:31:36.000 --> 1:31:39.120 It's the very best there is, and the predaceous lions 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:41.760 and tigers and leopards in the past have verified that 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:44.800 as well. So there's a big, big question, which is 1:31:44.880 --> 1:31:49.439 intellectual and interesting question, what did we do to survive 1:31:49.560 --> 1:31:54.400 at night surrounded by large predators without weapons of the 1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:56.840 kind that we have today. So this is one of 1:31:56.840 --> 1:31:58.320 the first things that I have to crack, and you 1:31:58.360 --> 1:32:00.560 can read in my book how we did it. We 1:32:00.640 --> 1:32:02.639 get to the point as we moved to history where 1:32:02.680 --> 1:32:06.000 we start to after the American you know, the police 1:32:06.000 --> 1:32:08.360 in a wild American frontier. The book talks a lot 1:32:08.400 --> 1:32:12.320 about what factors led to kind of the emergence of 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:14.560 the I don't know if you would call the enlightenment 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:17.679 of the conservation rise at the turn of the century, 1:32:17.760 --> 1:32:20.960 but yeah, you know, you see, you've put a finger 1:32:21.080 --> 1:32:24.679 on the right thing. Our conservations have to be very 1:32:24.800 --> 1:32:28.960 keenly aware of what happened after Columbus came to North 1:32:29.000 --> 1:32:35.479 America and because what happened was something honorable happened there 1:32:36.280 --> 1:32:40.000 somewhere between fifty six and twenty million people were destroyed 1:32:40.920 --> 1:32:46.120 by European diseases. Before that destruction, we have some idea 1:32:46.200 --> 1:32:50.200 what wildlife was like in North America through the eyes 1:32:50.360 --> 1:32:53.880 of the early Spanish explorers, and they tell us there 1:32:53.920 --> 1:32:57.479 wasn't a wildlife. There was an It was a continent 1:32:57.560 --> 1:33:02.080 overpopulated by human beings. It as a continent continuously manipulated 1:33:02.120 --> 1:33:06.240 by by by fires set by human beings very effectively. 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:10.719 So uh, the Eastern hardwood forest was actually a man 1:33:10.760 --> 1:33:15.960 made nut garden. That's how powerful influence we exerted. Then 1:33:16.000 --> 1:33:21.000 came this uh, terrible mortality of native people, which already 1:33:21.040 --> 1:33:25.439 began with the Desato expedition in fifteen thirty nine. And 1:33:25.479 --> 1:33:30.320 the natives realized while the expedition was in progress that 1:33:30.720 --> 1:33:35.719 they were in danger, just getting even close to white 1:33:35.960 --> 1:33:39.400 and they fled, but they didn't save them. In the 1:33:39.479 --> 1:33:43.400 last end, our diseases followed them through. So between fifty 1:33:43.439 --> 1:33:46.759 millions and a hundred fifty six million minimal and hundred 1:33:46.760 --> 1:33:50.240 twenty million people died, and you all of a sudden 1:33:50.280 --> 1:33:54.840 had a continent that was virtually free of people, and 1:33:54.920 --> 1:33:58.000 wildlife took over in the burgeoning fashion in the six 1:33:58.960 --> 1:34:02.920 ndred and that's what we saw, That's what Daniel Boone 1:34:03.040 --> 1:34:08.280 saw when he comes down, an abundance of wildlife, passenger 1:34:08.320 --> 1:34:11.640 pigeons darkening the sky. You see cads and Devaka or 1:34:11.640 --> 1:34:15.519 de Soto never saw a single passenger pigeon. Passenger pigeons 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:22.519 came into this massive existence once the nut gardens and 1:34:22.680 --> 1:34:26.360 the fruit trees were no longer being harvested. The human beings, 1:34:27.680 --> 1:34:33.920 after all, twenty millions were dead. So the wildlife then 1:34:34.080 --> 1:34:37.559 took over. And that is what environmentalists are seeing and 1:34:37.680 --> 1:34:40.960 not recognizing that this is an artifact. This is at 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:45.479 the artifact of European exploitation of the continent in itself. 1:34:45.800 --> 1:34:50.160 So these burgeoning number of buffaloes, well, there is some 1:34:50.200 --> 1:34:54.439 indication that in the center of the continent buffaloes were 1:34:54.720 --> 1:34:59.080 um fairly abundant and were able to withstand the hunting 1:34:59.120 --> 1:35:02.760 pressure that was put on them. But so there's a 1:35:02.760 --> 1:35:06.360 lot more history to be uncovered, I can assure you that. 1:35:07.120 --> 1:35:12.920 But the modern situation is the consequence of very very 1:35:13.000 --> 1:35:17.840 severe happenings after Columbus Lands in North America and the 1:35:17.880 --> 1:35:22.600 idea that North America was a beautiful, untouched wilderness occupied 1:35:22.640 --> 1:35:27.040 by a few native people is simply wrong. It didn't exist. Well, 1:35:27.080 --> 1:35:29.200 then you get to it, so you know, would it 1:35:29.200 --> 1:35:31.800 be correct in your mind? And saying that hundreds of 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:36.000 years of this understanding of our true impact on this 1:35:36.160 --> 1:35:40.080 kind it led to this, this enlightenment in in the 1:35:40.120 --> 1:35:43.400 early nine hundreds and then leaning up into well the enlightenment. 1:35:43.680 --> 1:35:50.080 Enlightenment came when people of wealth began to notice how 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:53.800 the wildlife was vanishing, when they started noticing that there 1:35:53.800 --> 1:35:57.800 were more more feathers in the hats of ladies on 1:35:58.439 --> 1:36:04.080 Wall Street then there were in down to the Everglades. Uh. 1:36:04.360 --> 1:36:08.160 The destruction of the American buffalo was of course also 1:36:08.200 --> 1:36:14.120 something that became very very uh noticeable, and it became 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:16.920 a factor in information of such organizations as the Boone 1:36:16.960 --> 1:36:20.200 conquer the croct Club, and I think it was six 1:36:21.040 --> 1:36:25.360 and you had your great President Teddy Roosevelt involved. Uh. 1:36:25.560 --> 1:36:30.200 What happened was the your North American system of wilder 1:36:30.200 --> 1:36:34.920 of conservation arose in opposition to this enormous destruction of 1:36:35.000 --> 1:36:37.720 while that that took place in the nineteenth century. In 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:40.680 the eighteenth century, parton me. Yeah. I mean, then you 1:36:40.720 --> 1:36:43.200 talk about some of the most in the book in 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:46.360 chapter three you talk a lot about some of the 1:36:46.400 --> 1:36:51.120 most important pieces of legislation, some of the national parks 1:36:51.120 --> 1:36:54.439 and national forests and in in you know that really 1:36:54.479 --> 1:36:57.080 from nineteen o one all the way up till nineteen 1:36:57.200 --> 1:37:01.680 thirty five one, President frank and by the way, make 1:37:01.720 --> 1:37:05.040 sure that this was a co oppositive effort in North 1:37:05.080 --> 1:37:09.240 America between Canada and the United States. And the most 1:37:09.280 --> 1:37:12.759 amazing thing is that Canada, which was a loyal, loyal 1:37:12.880 --> 1:37:16.720 colony of Great prison did not accept the way of 1:37:16.840 --> 1:37:20.639 wild that was managed in Great Britain, but joined hands 1:37:21.080 --> 1:37:26.040 with fellow Americans in the United States to generate jointly 1:37:26.439 --> 1:37:29.519 a continental system of wilder conservation. That's what we have. 1:37:30.200 --> 1:37:31.960 It's not a U S system, it's not a Canadian 1:37:32.040 --> 1:37:36.639 It's a joint international system that covers North America. That's 1:37:36.680 --> 1:37:39.479 the glory of it. Yeah. It shows how human beings 1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:41.840 and when they want to can come together to create 1:37:42.080 --> 1:37:46.160 something useful, something beautiful, something of great importance. We can 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:48.960 do it. And when you first you know, I think 1:37:48.960 --> 1:37:51.040 it's an important time is how when you first sat 1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:53.400 down to try to articulate what you knew to be 1:37:53.439 --> 1:37:58.479 this model. I was very interested in game branching and 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:01.559 I held the conference in ninety one in which I 1:38:01.560 --> 1:38:04.599 invited game branches from all across the world to attend, 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:07.240 and they attended. We had a wonderful get together, and 1:38:07.320 --> 1:38:12.040 after I was preparing the treaties, looking at all the 1:38:12.040 --> 1:38:14.679 papers and all the consequences, suddenly dawned on the Oh 1:38:14.760 --> 1:38:19.479 my god, this is not the way to proceed. And 1:38:19.560 --> 1:38:23.840 when game farming became very popular with my colleagues in 1:38:23.840 --> 1:38:28.480 the Canadian Wildlife Service, I was at one point castigating 1:38:28.520 --> 1:38:31.720 them for their support for that, and I stated that 1:38:31.800 --> 1:38:36.400 if you continue this path of promoting game farming, you're 1:38:36.400 --> 1:38:39.639 going to destroy your system of wildlfe conservation. And two 1:38:39.760 --> 1:38:46.120 senior um members of the Canadian Wilderve Service, men that 1:38:46.160 --> 1:38:48.960 have worked all their life with wildlife and we're about retired, 1:38:49.080 --> 1:38:51.519 shot back at me and said what system. We do 1:38:51.680 --> 1:38:54.880 not have a system of wild of conservation. And I said, 1:38:54.920 --> 1:38:57.040 you bloody well do have a system world of conservation, 1:38:57.040 --> 1:38:59.720 and I'll write it down to you, and I did 1:39:01.080 --> 1:39:05.559 you see. I am by background European, and I was 1:39:05.800 --> 1:39:10.680 raised in the lore of the German hunting system. So 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:13.479 I knew very very well what the European system did 1:39:13.800 --> 1:39:16.880 and did not do, and that is what I based 1:39:16.960 --> 1:39:21.920 my my construct of the North American model on. If 1:39:21.960 --> 1:39:27.400 you take the seven pillars of the North American system 1:39:27.439 --> 1:39:31.360 and reversed them hundred eighty degrees, you have the central 1:39:31.400 --> 1:39:34.760 European system of wildlerf management. You see, I did not 1:39:35.560 --> 1:39:39.719 write a history of the North American system. I stated 1:39:39.880 --> 1:39:43.719 this is what it is, and it was. I've published 1:39:43.720 --> 1:39:48.560 in total twenty three papers and book chapters on it eventually, 1:39:49.000 --> 1:39:55.920 and it grew somewhat in model UM paper dealing with 1:39:56.360 --> 1:39:59.280 North American system is the one that has ultimately used 1:39:59.320 --> 1:40:03.000 as the definitive system for it. If it hadn't been 1:40:03.000 --> 1:40:05.360 for Shane Mahoney and Joan Organ and others, it would 1:40:05.360 --> 1:40:09.320 not have survived because the wild that Wild NFE society 1:40:09.760 --> 1:40:12.400 was very much opposed to what I had written, and 1:40:12.439 --> 1:40:17.400 I was blackmailed from conferences and oh some interesting things happened. 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:20.800 I was vilified, and eventually, eventually saying their minds took 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:23.519 over and they realized that you had really quite an 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:27.559 astonishing the unique system while the conservation and now we're 1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:30.400 celebrating its God, thanks. But there was an initial there 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:33.439 was initial opposition to it. I can assure you that. Yeah, 1:40:33.479 --> 1:40:35.479 And I remember I remember talking about that last time, 1:40:35.479 --> 1:40:38.840 and I and I remember understanding, especially from Shane in 1:40:38.840 --> 1:40:43.000 our conversation as well, that this needed to be championed. 1:40:43.760 --> 1:40:47.639 Oh it did. And he and nobody can articulately better 1:40:47.640 --> 1:40:51.639 than Shane Mahoney. He's a maul speaker and he's also 1:40:51.640 --> 1:40:55.040 the poets pretty speaking. I admire very much his competence. 1:40:55.040 --> 1:40:57.519 He's a great man. Yeah, And it's for me as 1:40:57.560 --> 1:40:59.479 I read this, As I read this book, I think 1:40:59.479 --> 1:41:03.400 about an American model. It's strange to me that it 1:41:03.400 --> 1:41:05.559 would need to be championed. It's something we had already 1:41:05.640 --> 1:41:08.439 kind of. It is something that you should be very 1:41:08.479 --> 1:41:11.680 proud of as North Americans. This is a unique system 1:41:11.800 --> 1:41:15.719 and it works, that's the point. And it is produced 1:41:15.760 --> 1:41:18.640 wildlife in abundance. And what it has done is you 1:41:18.680 --> 1:41:21.880 can take a landscape and make it beautiful and productive 1:41:22.479 --> 1:41:25.800 that system and the public participates in it. It's not 1:41:26.160 --> 1:41:30.000 a system that is based on the elite as such. No, 1:41:30.760 --> 1:41:33.040 it's a system that is open to the public as 1:41:33.040 --> 1:41:36.360 a whole. Anybody can participate and they do. Yeah. Well, 1:41:36.400 --> 1:41:41.120 there's a couple of key questions that Rosie Cooney writes 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:43.080 on at the end of the book. I wanted to 1:41:43.120 --> 1:41:45.960 discuss with you. One of the first questions is really simple, 1:41:46.160 --> 1:41:49.120 although it's discussed in detail and the book is really simple. 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:52.240 Who owns wildlife? And I think that's a key to 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:54.360 to where we are the model. Well, of course it 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:56.800 is the key to it. And violnife is in the 1:41:56.840 --> 1:42:00.880 public domain. You and I, as citizens of Canada and 1:42:00.920 --> 1:42:03.479 the United States, owned the wildlife of Canada and the 1:42:03.520 --> 1:42:06.559 United States. And that is something that you don't find 1:42:06.560 --> 1:42:10.280 in Europe because wildlife is tied to the ownership of land. Yeah, 1:42:10.240 --> 1:42:13.040 and this is is that how common in your experience 1:42:13.080 --> 1:42:16.280 is that globally? I know, very very common, very common. 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:21.160 That is that was that was their root system of concer. 1:42:21.800 --> 1:42:25.240 People that had huge landholdings were able to conserve wildlife, 1:42:25.240 --> 1:42:30.040 and they did by the way, and people destroyed wildlife notoriously. 1:42:30.439 --> 1:42:33.880 So one of the lessons from history is when wildlife 1:42:33.960 --> 1:42:36.960 is in the ownership of the elite and there is 1:42:37.000 --> 1:42:41.120 a revolution, the first thing that gets destroyed is wildlife. 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:47.439 That happened the French Revolution, that happened in eighty eight 1:42:47.520 --> 1:42:52.120 in with the German Revolution. That happened again in nineteen 1:42:52.240 --> 1:42:57.400 forty seven in India when India managed to get free 1:42:57.400 --> 1:43:01.719 from a great person and became independent of that people 1:43:01.760 --> 1:43:04.719 turned on violent which is completely destroyed well in the book, 1:43:05.479 --> 1:43:08.720 Dr Cooney writes about it. You know, wildlife is a 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:13.000 fugitive resource, meaning animals don't care if you if you 1:43:13.320 --> 1:43:15.840 if you make arbitrary borders, or if you own this 1:43:15.960 --> 1:43:19.920 or that, animals just do not care, and they don't care. 1:43:19.960 --> 1:43:22.320 Of course, yeah, that has been problematic in some ways, 1:43:22.360 --> 1:43:25.800 but in our model it's been illustrative of lots of points. 1:43:25.800 --> 1:43:27.639 But then you you look at a place like South 1:43:27.680 --> 1:43:33.120 Africa where where you have these animals are put in 1:43:33.160 --> 1:43:36.160 a fence, and then that property owner owns that this 1:43:36.240 --> 1:43:44.200 happens in as long as the situation exists, as it 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:49.639 does today. Yet yet you have much of the land 1:43:49.680 --> 1:43:52.639 in South Africa is still under the control of flights, 1:43:53.720 --> 1:43:57.200 and they're doing a perfectly good job of wind of conservation, 1:43:57.240 --> 1:44:01.040 factibility of job, wile of conservation. When I have discussed 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:03.679 it with them, I've asked, I've turned around and said, 1:44:03.960 --> 1:44:10.000 what will happen to wildlife when every citizen of South 1:44:10.040 --> 1:44:13.720 Africa is able to go into a shop and buy 1:44:13.840 --> 1:44:16.519 himself at twelve gate shotgun in the third ye old 1:44:16.600 --> 1:44:22.120 six rifle and a forty five color pistol. What will 1:44:22.120 --> 1:44:24.880 happen to was that then, you see in the United 1:44:24.920 --> 1:44:27.400 States you can do that. We can go into a 1:44:27.400 --> 1:44:30.800 shop and you can arm yourself, no problem. That's part 1:44:30.800 --> 1:44:33.519 of your constitution and just part of the the expectation you 1:44:33.560 --> 1:44:37.720 have a In fact, wildlife had at one time in 1:44:37.800 --> 1:44:42.840 the nineteen eighties, I counted it, wildlife was outnumbered by 1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:46.040 guns in private ownership about eight to nine to one. 1:44:46.760 --> 1:44:51.040 He with this enormous armament in North America, wildlife was thriving. 1:44:51.680 --> 1:44:54.640 And I asked my asked my colleagues. Then in what 1:44:54.760 --> 1:44:57.679 will happen? But there was no discussion at that point 1:44:58.760 --> 1:45:03.880 because the frightening possibility was that there would be a 1:45:03.880 --> 1:45:08.719 total takeover of a private land in South Africa and 1:45:08.840 --> 1:45:11.840 there would be a total decimation of wildlife as a consequence. 1:45:12.800 --> 1:45:16.639 So today's situation in the Maybia, today's situation in Africa 1:45:16.840 --> 1:45:20.960 is a fragile one. Three cheers that it's holding out 1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:23.640 for the time being, but for the future, I'm not 1:45:23.760 --> 1:45:27.080 optimistic in North America. I am optimistic, and I've been 1:45:27.560 --> 1:45:30.000 known to write in one paper that the very last 1:45:30.040 --> 1:45:33.840 elephant on the earth will survive on the King Ranch 1:45:34.040 --> 1:45:38.639 in Texas. What I think, You're right, and it's such 1:45:38.920 --> 1:45:43.080 we have such a strange, such a strange dichotomy there. 1:45:43.120 --> 1:45:45.320 I lived in Texas and I often when I when 1:45:45.360 --> 1:45:46.800 I read that part of this book, and this is 1:45:46.840 --> 1:45:49.320 in the last chapter I'm going through, and I'm thinking, 1:45:50.280 --> 1:45:52.960 many parts of Texas don't abide by this North American 1:45:53.000 --> 1:45:55.839 model that we've so well, you know, that we've developed. 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:59.120 They do in part, and they in part don't, but 1:45:59.200 --> 1:46:03.000 in part they do because Texas Wildlife Texas is still 1:46:03.040 --> 1:46:07.759 being managed by the state with authority to do certain things. 1:46:08.720 --> 1:46:12.559 And I'm quite a fan of some of the things 1:46:12.560 --> 1:46:15.400 that I've seen on Texas ranches that I'm doing, some 1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:17.920 very very good management is taking place on that very 1:46:17.960 --> 1:46:22.479 good management. The beauty of the United States is and 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:27.559 that you have a diversity of ownerships, so that while 1:46:27.640 --> 1:46:32.320 we have wildlife entirely in the public domain, also wildlife 1:46:32.320 --> 1:46:37.200 which is coexisting with private ownership and is doing extremely well. 1:46:37.960 --> 1:46:40.280 Do you do you feel like this is this is 1:46:40.280 --> 1:46:42.839 what you mentioned earlier that I thought was so profound 1:46:42.880 --> 1:46:46.160 to me that that intelligent intervention just taking shape in 1:46:46.200 --> 1:46:49.360 different ways, and even though it may every once in 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:55.360 a while, what you just said, intelligent intervention, that's what 1:46:55.439 --> 1:46:58.840 it's all about. We can have intelligent intervention and then 1:46:58.880 --> 1:47:02.160 we have wildlife and predators, and we have biodiversity, and 1:47:02.200 --> 1:47:05.960 we have beauty. We have the whole shamak, but it 1:47:06.120 --> 1:47:10.679 needs intelligent intervention. Is there some intelligent intervention that kind 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:15.200 of goes against the model? No, don't. The model is 1:47:15.240 --> 1:47:19.959 in fact an interventionist model completely and entirely. It assumes 1:47:20.000 --> 1:47:24.120 that our wildlife is publicly owned, that we have agencies 1:47:24.160 --> 1:47:30.520 that are managing in the public interest, that these agencies 1:47:30.520 --> 1:47:36.680 are guided by science and history and scholarship and so on, 1:47:37.520 --> 1:47:41.760 and that wildlife is so important that we consider it 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:47.320 as a public resource that we must maintain. When do 1:47:47.360 --> 1:47:50.519 you have a total protectionist policy, nobody gives damn about it. 1:47:50.680 --> 1:47:53.960 And while let's deterior rates. That's also a lesson from 1:47:54.000 --> 1:47:57.759 the national parks. As as we move on, there's another 1:47:57.800 --> 1:48:01.040 really important question here that I think that everybody listened 1:48:01.040 --> 1:48:03.840 to this podcast, I know UM wants to know more 1:48:03.840 --> 1:48:06.880 about and thinks about this quite often. What is what 1:48:07.000 --> 1:48:10.439 exactly in your mind is the role of hunting, and 1:48:10.720 --> 1:48:14.080 you know if you can encapsulate it in the model, well, 1:48:14.160 --> 1:48:17.200 the role of hunting is vital because on one hand, 1:48:17.240 --> 1:48:20.840 the role of hunting makes sure that there is a 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:24.680 segment of the population passionately involved with wildlife, which is 1:48:24.840 --> 1:48:30.200 very interested to maintain wildlife, which gladly um sacrifice on 1:48:30.240 --> 1:48:35.040 behalf of wildlife. And at the same time wildlife is 1:48:35.080 --> 1:48:39.400 then being used for food by humans and the very 1:48:39.479 --> 1:48:45.880 very best meat in the world comes from wildlife. There's 1:48:45.880 --> 1:48:49.320 no if on babies about that. Yeah, m hm. And 1:48:49.400 --> 1:48:57.200 so what you have then is a public support of wildlife, 1:48:57.520 --> 1:49:01.599 and it wildlife has the future because everybody looks forward 1:49:02.040 --> 1:49:05.320 to seeing wildlife next fall and going out and hunting 1:49:05.320 --> 1:49:07.599 next fall and being able to eat it. And by 1:49:07.640 --> 1:49:12.240 the way, and just some statistics are important. At the minimum, 1:49:12.560 --> 1:49:17.000 the wolf in Yellowstone takes down sixteen elk a year. 1:49:17.960 --> 1:49:22.559 That's the winter meat of sixteen families. Have you seen 1:49:22.640 --> 1:49:25.160 Can you imagine twenty two elk or twenty four elk 1:49:25.280 --> 1:49:27.800 standing on the in the meadow, on the lawn in 1:49:27.840 --> 1:49:32.080 front of your house. Yeah, that's what wolf killed when 1:49:32.120 --> 1:49:35.240 things are good. Yeah, Well, like I said, we've I've 1:49:35.280 --> 1:49:38.559 seen anyst enormous Yeah, I've seen those things go off 1:49:38.600 --> 1:49:40.760 in areas where I have hunted, where wolves come through 1:49:40.960 --> 1:49:43.479 and and everything gets on their feet, everything is disturbed 1:49:43.479 --> 1:49:46.040 and it just changes everything and I eat it. And 1:49:46.120 --> 1:49:47.880 at the same time, we do have an obligation to 1:49:47.920 --> 1:49:52.160 conserve wolves, no tways about it. I have seen and 1:49:52.160 --> 1:49:54.639 I've lived in the system where wolves were doing well, 1:49:54.920 --> 1:49:57.920 where while that was doing well, where hunters were doing well, 1:49:58.640 --> 1:50:01.479 and we thought we were having a marvelous place which 1:50:01.520 --> 1:50:03.559 we have to conserve because we thought that was natural, 1:50:03.680 --> 1:50:06.439 it wasn't well. And then there's some you know, I'm 1:50:06.439 --> 1:50:09.320 glad to hear you say there's some there's an obligatory 1:50:09.400 --> 1:50:12.120 nature to it rather than an emotional nature to you know, 1:50:12.200 --> 1:50:15.280 we have to we have to see these things as 1:50:15.280 --> 1:50:18.439 an obligation, right, something that we have to look after everything. 1:50:18.560 --> 1:50:25.920 And the more diverse the natural system is, the greater 1:50:26.080 --> 1:50:30.280 are the opportunities for some unpopular animals to exist, something 1:50:30.320 --> 1:50:34.120 like the rattlesnakes. Yeah, not very popular, but there's a 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:38.760 place for them in nature. And if you protect um 1:50:39.120 --> 1:50:43.439 landscapes so that the big fellows can exist. All the 1:50:43.479 --> 1:50:47.640 little ones will be there. So this is what you 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:50.880 have done in North Americas to simply demonstrate that with 1:50:50.960 --> 1:50:54.440 the public ownership of wildlife, you can create by diversity, 1:50:54.479 --> 1:50:57.320 you can create productivity, you can create beauty, you can 1:50:57.400 --> 1:51:02.559 create a great employment and as economically, it's a wonderful model. 1:51:03.160 --> 1:51:07.280 But it depends on the utilization of Last night, I 1:51:07.280 --> 1:51:09.640 think to to to wrap things up. I mean, we 1:51:09.640 --> 1:51:12.559 could go on for so long about this, this book, 1:51:12.560 --> 1:51:15.880 and I think we we asked our our listeners to 1:51:15.960 --> 1:51:18.640 write in and and review the book and then and 1:51:18.760 --> 1:51:23.320 ask some questions um, and so hopefully yeah we have. 1:51:23.560 --> 1:51:26.719 I I read through dozens of these and I picked 1:51:26.760 --> 1:51:32.720 one from Cody tilt out of Wyoming, and Cody had 1:51:32.760 --> 1:51:34.559 one he had a question. But in his review of 1:51:34.600 --> 1:51:38.200 the book, he said he said this, He said, I 1:51:38.240 --> 1:51:42.479 feel like I never quite knew the breath and depth 1:51:42.920 --> 1:51:48.439 of my experiences outside. I never knew hunting um until 1:51:48.600 --> 1:51:52.360 I read this book. I could really understand the complex 1:51:52.479 --> 1:51:56.599 nature of what I was taking part in. And I 1:51:56.640 --> 1:51:59.160 can't wait to share this with my friends and family 1:51:59.560 --> 1:52:02.880 and every one that that asked me questionable. So that 1:52:02.960 --> 1:52:05.040 was part of his he wrote a long email, but 1:52:05.080 --> 1:52:07.320 that was part of his email and his questions. He 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:09.360 wrote a lot of questions, but I think one of 1:52:09.400 --> 1:52:11.760 his questions was I think something I know that you 1:52:11.880 --> 1:52:14.680 thought of. It's discussed in this book. He puts it 1:52:14.720 --> 1:52:18.679 well and it's very simply. You know what is going 1:52:18.720 --> 1:52:23.040 to happen in the future to this model. What needs 1:52:23.040 --> 1:52:27.120 to change to keep it going? Well, what needs to 1:52:27.200 --> 1:52:29.719 change is keep it going is we have to get 1:52:29.760 --> 1:52:34.000 some sanity back into an and to our environmentalism. We 1:52:34.040 --> 1:52:37.559 have to get away from the extremes extremes of you 1:52:37.680 --> 1:52:42.679 protect this, you protect that, and you tried to get 1:52:42.720 --> 1:52:45.120 back to nature, and so for you have to realize 1:52:45.160 --> 1:52:51.320 that what was natural is long gone. We now have 1:52:51.439 --> 1:52:54.680 the obligation to look after nature. That's our obligation, and 1:52:55.040 --> 1:52:58.559 our obligation is to maintain every piece of nature we 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:02.599 must have obtained by the versit t And the best 1:53:02.600 --> 1:53:05.160 way to maintain biodiversity is to have as much of 1:53:05.200 --> 1:53:08.840 the public involved with while that as possible. And when 1:53:08.880 --> 1:53:12.360 you have a public that is looking forward to the 1:53:12.439 --> 1:53:15.080 hunting season, I mean there is such a thing as 1:53:15.080 --> 1:53:18.479 a Swedish illness in Sweden. Yeah, that's when the men 1:53:18.560 --> 1:53:24.760 disappeared hunting moose. That's a Swedish illness. And when you 1:53:24.800 --> 1:53:27.920 have that kind of appreciation, you are going to have 1:53:28.080 --> 1:53:32.519 exactly that what the model has done in the past, 1:53:32.920 --> 1:53:35.760 which is now being destroyed by I think a rather 1:53:35.960 --> 1:53:41.040 ill informed and malignant environmentalism, and that is the over 1:53:41.200 --> 1:53:45.600 protection of predators or protection of landscapes. We have to 1:53:45.720 --> 1:53:51.880 realize that we have the obligation to manage, to manage intelligently, 1:53:52.120 --> 1:53:54.920 and the model has shown the way. How yeah, I 1:53:54.920 --> 1:53:57.320 think there's no better place to end because as I 1:53:57.720 --> 1:54:00.960 search for you know, we have the certain flash points 1:54:00.960 --> 1:54:04.479 and we discussed them here. We discussed uh, you know, 1:54:04.760 --> 1:54:08.840 charismatic megaphone and predators and there's certain like flashpoints that, 1:54:08.960 --> 1:54:14.840 oh boy, you should get into how Neanderthal hunted. You know, 1:54:14.960 --> 1:54:17.879 you are a hunter and you take it for granted 1:54:17.880 --> 1:54:20.479 that you go out and take a weapon and you start. 1:54:20.880 --> 1:54:27.479 Neanderthal was a super predator that was nocturnal. He hunted 1:54:27.520 --> 1:54:32.080 at night. He had big, big eyes, bigger than your 1:54:32.080 --> 1:54:36.680 own mind. He had a brain that was larger than mind, 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:40.040 and but it was not large in the front. It 1:54:40.200 --> 1:54:45.400 was large in the basement parts. That's where vision is located. 1:54:45.400 --> 1:54:47.320 In the brain and other ways. The parts of the 1:54:47.360 --> 1:54:53.000 brain that support vision were huge in neander top absolutely huge, 1:54:54.440 --> 1:55:00.760 and they Neanderthal hunters men and women suffered own breakages 1:55:02.440 --> 1:55:09.200 and the bone breakages resembled that of cow rodeo cowboys. 1:55:09.720 --> 1:55:13.280 And what they were killing primarily were very hairy beasts, 1:55:14.080 --> 1:55:18.960 beasts that you could hang onto when you put your 1:55:19.000 --> 1:55:24.800 hand into it. Yeah, basically there were two hunters involved 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:29.400 in the killing of a large hairy beast. Uh, the 1:55:29.440 --> 1:55:32.360 one who hung onto the beast to distract it and 1:55:32.400 --> 1:55:34.720 the other one who killed it with the spear of 1:55:35.000 --> 1:55:38.920 very sophisticated design. I mean, history is a lot of fun, 1:55:39.520 --> 1:55:43.560 and here we have a hunter that survived for about 1:55:44.000 --> 1:55:48.960 four thousand years. Eventually they died out for various reasons, 1:55:49.000 --> 1:55:52.400 but I found them quite fascinating. This is why it's 1:55:52.400 --> 1:55:55.000 interesting to go into the history of human beings. Human 1:55:55.040 --> 1:56:00.000 beings have been incredible, absolutely incredible, And just as incredible 1:56:00.560 --> 1:56:03.240 is really our system of wild of conservation when you 1:56:03.240 --> 1:56:05.760 think about it globally, because it's so unique. But by 1:56:05.760 --> 1:56:07.800 the way, the Russians for a while tried to get it, 1:56:08.040 --> 1:56:10.760 but the oligarchy went out and they didn't get it. 1:56:11.160 --> 1:56:15.400 But I had several of my papers translated into Russian 1:56:15.640 --> 1:56:18.400 and published at that time. Point. It's too bad. But 1:56:18.840 --> 1:56:23.000 our model is still and it is unique. In another sense, 1:56:23.240 --> 1:56:27.520 it can only be done in an armed society. Our 1:56:27.560 --> 1:56:31.600 model cannot be transferred to China because the Chinese do 1:56:31.640 --> 1:56:35.400 not allow arms to the citizens. We're living in a 1:56:36.200 --> 1:56:39.480 on the continent in which we have so much trust 1:56:39.480 --> 1:56:42.360 in each other that we allow each other to be armed. 1:56:42.800 --> 1:56:47.160 I mean, it's wonderful, Yeah, I mean what you said. 1:56:47.560 --> 1:56:49.640 You know, sometimes when I'm talking to you, I feel 1:56:49.640 --> 1:56:51.640 like in the need end with all myself because there's 1:56:51.680 --> 1:56:54.800 so I feel like we could have these conversations for 1:56:54.840 --> 1:56:56.920 three or four hours every single time. We'd probably do 1:56:56.960 --> 1:57:00.360 it weekly. UM, You've you've read so much, to study 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:03.880 so much. We will, We definitely will. But I just 1:57:03.880 --> 1:57:05.480 want to say that, you know again, I know we 1:57:05.560 --> 1:57:08.480 said this last time when you're here, but I appreciate 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:11.040 your willingness to come and talk with us, and your 1:57:11.120 --> 1:57:14.240 willingness to well, really to commit your whole life to 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:17.160 these ideas that are so important to my generation, the 1:57:17.200 --> 1:57:22.280 next generation. UM, and I think it's it's so incredibly 1:57:23.280 --> 1:57:25.200 important to hear what you have to say, and to 1:57:25.200 --> 1:57:28.920 to read this work and to continue to have the 1:57:28.960 --> 1:57:33.440 dialogue that that you've been having. I'm very glad that 1:57:33.480 --> 1:57:39.879 you have an access to broadcast your visions. And congratulations, 1:57:40.000 --> 1:57:42.240 very important what you're doing. Thank you, Thank you very much, 1:57:42.280 --> 1:57:46.640 Dr Geist And we will definitely catch up soon and hopefully, yeah, 1:57:46.840 --> 1:57:50.600 hopefully I'll be able to come over and we'll hang 1:57:50.640 --> 1:57:54.480 out in your in the will COVID nineteen will not 1:57:54.560 --> 1:57:57.320 last forever, that's right. And and could you just quickly 1:57:57.360 --> 1:58:00.320 describe before we go, what's your set up there? What's 1:58:00.320 --> 1:58:02.360 the cabin like or what you know, what's the house like? 1:58:03.040 --> 1:58:08.000 Deep in the woods? I have a house on and 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:11.640 I have I have been filmed during a number of times. 1:58:12.040 --> 1:58:13.760 And you're looking at a room in which there are 1:58:13.800 --> 1:58:15.480 quite a few ants us hanging on the wall and 1:58:15.480 --> 1:58:19.040 pictures and so on the four. Uh. It's those that 1:58:19.200 --> 1:58:21.560 have filmed have told me that it's an ideal to 1:58:22.040 --> 1:58:25.720 set up so you can come and visit here. We 1:58:25.760 --> 1:58:29.480 have got excellent facilities in our little town which is 1:58:29.520 --> 1:58:35.760 about um twenty minutes away or so. And uh, as 1:58:35.800 --> 1:58:39.000 I said, uh, it's not the first time that people 1:58:39.040 --> 1:58:42.920 have come and visited me and we've had films taken 1:58:42.920 --> 1:58:45.680 of me. Well that's beautiful. Well again, I just want 1:58:45.680 --> 1:58:47.520 to say thank you very much for all that you 1:58:47.560 --> 1:58:50.040 do and all that you've done. Okay, and thank you. 1:58:50.160 --> 1:58:55.840 Till next time, I will SI say goodbye, bye bye, goodbye. 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.040 That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thanks 1:59:04.080 --> 1:59:06.920 for sticking with us for Yanni Patelis has asked the 1:59:06.920 --> 1:59:12.080 Eagle and conversation with Dr Valarious Geist again. Hopefully my 1:59:12.240 --> 1:59:14.400 the precursor to the interview where I kind of apologize 1:59:14.440 --> 1:59:19.480 for poor interviewing performance didn't dampen your enjoyment the larger 1:59:19.520 --> 1:59:23.280 points of Dr Geist because that book, the North American 1:59:23.280 --> 1:59:26.800 Widdle Model of Waddle, I said, North American Waddle, North 1:59:26.840 --> 1:59:31.120 American Model of wildlife conservation book that was edited by 1:59:31.120 --> 1:59:33.640 Shane Mahoney and Vlarious Cast but also includes many other 1:59:34.120 --> 1:59:37.760 impactful individuals in the conservation space. Is an important book. 1:59:37.760 --> 1:59:40.480 So if you haven't read it, go read it. And 1:59:40.520 --> 1:59:42.800 if you read it for the TC book Club and 1:59:42.840 --> 1:59:44.920 your question didn't get in there, sorry about that. It 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:46.440 was hard to get a question in Edge of Wise 1:59:46.520 --> 1:59:48.440 with Dr Geist because he has so much to say. 1:59:49.120 --> 1:59:51.480 But it's a book we should all take a look 1:59:51.480 --> 1:59:54.160 at I was actually Phil. I was up camping with 1:59:54.200 --> 1:59:57.480 the kiddos over the weekend by a nice lake and 1:59:57.560 --> 2:00:00.480 this backcountry lake here in Montana, and I brought that 2:00:00.520 --> 2:00:02.800 book and I was I was going to read it 2:00:02.880 --> 2:00:05.880 like when everybody was resting or fishing or sleeping. I 2:00:05.920 --> 2:00:09.000 was going to read it. Um. But that never happened 2:00:09.160 --> 2:00:12.320 because everybody was running around. But I did read a 2:00:12.320 --> 2:00:14.520 few paragraphs to my kid and he was he was 2:00:14.600 --> 2:00:18.320 interested in what this is all about. So don't read 2:00:18.320 --> 2:00:23.080 it to your kids. Oh, I would never. Never if 2:00:23.080 --> 2:00:25.360 you want to put him to sleep. It's a very 2:00:25.400 --> 2:00:27.320 technical book, I will say that, but it's but it's 2:00:27.440 --> 2:00:32.520 essential knowledge, essential knowledge for every hunter an angler out there. Um, 2:00:32.720 --> 2:00:34.960 pheels you feel like? Asked the eagle went well, yeah, 2:00:35.000 --> 2:00:40.080 I thought that was great. Brandon was a great first guest. Canadians. Yeah. Nice, 2:00:41.520 --> 2:00:45.920 nice play individuals. Speaking of nice polite individuals. Um. Next 2:00:45.920 --> 2:00:49.680 week is and Phil just can't every time he knows 2:00:49.720 --> 2:00:53.760 what I'm gonna say, he can't contain himself. Next week 2:00:54.280 --> 2:00:57.640 we're gonna get into Now, We're gonna get into uh, 2:00:57.640 --> 2:01:02.000 it's an opposition show. We had doctor guys talking about 2:01:02.040 --> 2:01:06.160 intelligent intervention and that we should be managing predators, that 2:01:06.200 --> 2:01:09.520 we should be actively managing them through hunting and other means. 2:01:10.640 --> 2:01:13.040 And next week we're going to kind of address the 2:01:13.080 --> 2:01:16.120 opposite opinion, and in this case, the opposite have been 2:01:16.320 --> 2:01:21.200 belongs to Dr Barry Kay Gilbert. What now, let me 2:01:21.240 --> 2:01:24.680 just explain myself, Phil, Okay, because you're still you know, 2:01:25.040 --> 2:01:27.160 as the residents skept it. You told me about this, 2:01:27.400 --> 2:01:30.280 uh a few days ago, and I just I was 2:01:30.320 --> 2:01:32.600 telling you, I think I think it might be the 2:01:32.680 --> 2:01:36.360 better idea to just keep this book closed. Man. Well, 2:01:36.400 --> 2:01:39.480 I'm not I like to uh, I like to embrace 2:01:39.520 --> 2:01:43.680 my bad ideas. Okay. So I emailed Dr Barry kay Or. 2:01:43.800 --> 2:01:47.560 We hadn't spoken since, you know, briefly after the last show. 2:01:47.760 --> 2:01:50.840 He was very upset by some of the responses that 2:01:50.920 --> 2:01:54.120 he got from our program. But I felt after we 2:01:54.200 --> 2:01:58.560 named after the salty Gilbert, after the element salty Gilbert 2:01:58.640 --> 2:02:01.520 that we came up, I had just he is on 2:02:01.600 --> 2:02:05.640 my mind a lot. It's thinking about him. Um. The 2:02:05.680 --> 2:02:07.880 inter actual interview guests from next week is again named 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:10.040 Chris Dermont. We'll talk about him, but he brought that 2:02:10.080 --> 2:02:12.360 interview up when him and I were talking about some 2:02:12.440 --> 2:02:15.480 of these issues. And as I was telling Phil, a 2:02:15.520 --> 2:02:18.560 week doesn't go by where I don't either have an 2:02:18.600 --> 2:02:22.840 email about or think about Dr Barry K. Gilbert. And 2:02:22.880 --> 2:02:24.920 I thought, well, what a relationship I have with this 2:02:24.960 --> 2:02:27.400 man where he is? He is a weekly part of 2:02:27.400 --> 2:02:30.200 my life, and yet we don't talk. And so I 2:02:31.120 --> 2:02:35.480 reached out and I offered to bury the hatchet. Basically said, hey, like, 2:02:35.600 --> 2:02:37.560 come on, let's have some fun. Let's bury the hatchet. 2:02:37.600 --> 2:02:40.520 Let's talk about our core values and where they align 2:02:40.640 --> 2:02:44.840 rather than arguing about what we argued about prior. There's 2:02:44.840 --> 2:02:46.920 a lot of a lot of ways that it could go. 2:02:47.800 --> 2:02:50.400 And so next week you'll see how it did go. 2:02:51.200 --> 2:02:56.360 So hang on to your seats, right Phil. That's great? 2:02:56.840 --> 2:02:59.440 And Phil is conspicuously go on a vacation right after 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:02.640 we finished it up, So yeah, you might need it. 2:03:03.200 --> 2:03:05.760 I mean, I just assume that that everything's gonna come 2:03:05.800 --> 2:03:09.720 crashing down after this interview. Well maybe this is the 2:03:09.800 --> 2:03:13.040 last or the next to the last episode of th HC. 2:03:14.080 --> 2:03:17.880 While I'm at it, go give us a review on iTunes, Subscribe, 2:03:17.920 --> 2:03:20.680 tell your friends to subscribe, do all you kind of 2:03:20.680 --> 2:03:23.600 support the show. We certainly need it to support my 2:03:23.680 --> 2:03:25.960 bad ideas. There's also a new podcast on the met 2:03:25.960 --> 2:03:30.440 eat podcast network Ben Oh, Yeah Bent ben CNT check 2:03:30.480 --> 2:03:33.440 it out, Get Bent, check it out Yeah Fishing Podcast 2:03:33.480 --> 2:03:37.160 Miles Nulte, Joe, Sir Mellie. You'll hear the ads, hopefully 2:03:37.160 --> 2:03:39.040 you'll hear the podcast. It's a good one. It's different 2:03:39.040 --> 2:03:41.360 than anything you've ever heard. I guarantee it, So go 2:03:41.640 --> 2:03:43.400 give it a listen and we will see you next 2:03:43.440 --> 2:03:50.680 week for Barry Kay Gilbert Talking Bears. But because I 2:03:50.760 --> 2:04:03.040 can't go a week without doing right way wrong, I'm 2:04:03.400 --> 2:04:12.520 waiting wrong, drinking in Heaven. M