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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on an older row. Hey, everybody welcomed episode

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Speaker 1: hundred thirty nine of The Hunting Collective Big Show Today.

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Speaker 1: Say hey, Phil, Hello, how are you doing? Sir? Doing well?

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Speaker 1: You have maintained your skepticism. We're just before we hit record.

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Speaker 1: Your your skeptical of almost every decision I make on

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Speaker 1: the show. You know, I'm just here to balance things out.

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Speaker 1: I am. I am the show's devil's advocate. Uh, that's

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Speaker 1: my job. Thank you well. Thanks the return of Janice

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Speaker 1: the Eagle patel Us A lot of an eagle patel Us. Hello, Johanni,

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Speaker 1: good morning, how are you. It's I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Now before we go anywhere, thank you to Element for

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Speaker 1: being the title sponsor this program. Yanny, is this your

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Speaker 1: first time trying Element? Yes? What do you give your thoughts?

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Speaker 1: Because you you do a lot of running. Um, I

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Speaker 1: hear tell from Maggie Mary Magdalen that you guys are

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Speaker 1: gonna run at an actual race of some kind. We

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Speaker 1: had many races plan but they've all been canceled. And well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think of the salty deliciousness. That is,

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Speaker 1: it's exactly that. The first gulp you're like, whoa, yeah,

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Speaker 1: did I just jump into a refreshing ocean? But then

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Speaker 1: the second gulf you're you're used to it. Then by

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Speaker 1: the third one, I'm thinking, man, I could really see

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Speaker 1: how that salt would help my calves to not cramp,

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Speaker 1: probably on a mile. It's become essential for me. If

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Speaker 1: you want to learn more, drink element Ta dot com

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Speaker 1: slash meat Eater. There's pictures of us hunting and doing

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Speaker 1: things and drinking elements so you will like that. Go there,

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Speaker 1: Do I get to take this whole box home? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and drink it a whole box for you. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: grab a couple of those before you. Let's yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the orange flavor Orange salt, Orange salt. I gotta say that.

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Speaker 1: Raspberries by far my favorite. It's good, by far my favorite.

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Speaker 1: I like it because just a little little little pack

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Speaker 1: of there's not much in there, maybe a tablespoon. It

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Speaker 1: does a whole court. Yeah. Um, I might even dilute

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Speaker 1: it just to even a little bit more while I'm running.

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Speaker 1: It's full of electual lyce. And as you said, some

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Speaker 1: of the other similar products out there on the market

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Speaker 1: are just full of sugar point where the it's just

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Speaker 1: it's this unpleasant and so drink Element dot com slash

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Speaker 1: Meteor hit it up. Now, we got a lot of

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Speaker 1: to do today, Yanni, do you want to kind of

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Speaker 1: tell the twisting and turning tail of asked the Eagle.

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Speaker 1: Do we want to leave that behind the scenes? Phil

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Speaker 1: and I have been I don't know if there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of twisting and turning. I was trying to give

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Speaker 1: some dramatics to the when I when you asked about

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Speaker 1: it over email, I replied, and I used the word stasis. Stasis.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's a perfect descriptor. I would agree.

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Speaker 1: It's just busy over here, Meteor and um, yeah, asked

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Speaker 1: the Eagle. It just was taken a little too much time.

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Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. So we've opted here at th HC.

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Speaker 1: Will swaddle it, take care of it and help it

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Speaker 1: to grow. Um. We we'll do as many, asked the Eagle,

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Speaker 1: segments as possible. Now we're all busy, we should I

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Speaker 1: do want to talk with you about the old fall

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Speaker 1: hunting schedule. What's're up to? So what's the laid out

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Speaker 1: for us? That's the most exciting because I know you've

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Speaker 1: had some things canceled, right, like all of us have.

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Speaker 1: Kind of, no, not right now, not yet, not yet,

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Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you about my weekend. Man, I

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Speaker 1: went from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows.

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Speaker 1: Kind of I'm being a bit dramatic, but I was

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Speaker 1: shooting field points. I sent you some pictures just like

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Speaker 1: the you know, yeah three inch group at forty yards,

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Speaker 1: just feeling great to look out elk. Yeah. Threw on

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Speaker 1: some broadheads and just really what broadheads? I tried three

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Speaker 1: different ones and I'm just spraying broadheads. So, um, I

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Speaker 1: think I've got a tuning issue. I've gotten friends, so

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go and try to get that take care

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Speaker 1: of today. But I always wait too long to switch

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Speaker 1: over to the broadheads. I've gotta have two weeks until

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Speaker 1: my first hot. Yeah, I feel you. I feel like

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Speaker 1: that's probably what most people do. Well, I don't say

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Speaker 1: probably what most people do wrong, but it's a common occurrence.

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Speaker 1: So I have gone to probably overcompensating and just destroying

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Speaker 1: my targets by shooting broadheads or they destroy targets. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you and I have been sharing some targets, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I I probably do it. Wait earlier, I doll

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Speaker 1: out of the whole pack of broadheads and destroy my

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Speaker 1: targets in an effort to not be in the situation

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Speaker 1: room because I've been there so many times, so many

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Speaker 1: damned times. So but you know what, I'd rather be

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Speaker 1: here than have a good, good shooting broadhead and not

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Speaker 1: have my form and strength down, which is where I

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Speaker 1: think where I feel. I feel like really good, like

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Speaker 1: I can. My draw cycle feels good, my release feels good.

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Speaker 1: I'm shooting well. I just need to Hopefully it's just

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Speaker 1: gonna be a couple of minor tweaks. I gotta admit here.

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Speaker 1: I feel my arrow is going where I wanted to,

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Speaker 1: and I'm shooting. My groups are fine. I've been shooting

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Speaker 1: out the fifty yards is I can shoot the fifty

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Speaker 1: six in my backyard. So I've been shooting out the

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Speaker 1: fifty six by the byby standing on the sidewalk in

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Speaker 1: my little suburban development, and people walk by, and some

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Speaker 1: some are very like, oh what kind of bow was that?

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Speaker 1: And other people just kind of wide berth that baby

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Speaker 1: and go across the street give me that look like

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Speaker 1: should you be doing that. I feel like that's gonna

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Speaker 1: come to an end. Yeah, probably probably whatever somebody's gonna

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Speaker 1: be like, isn't there a covenant against that? Are you

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Speaker 1: in city limits or no? Yeah you are? Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: But I just feel like it's both. There's lots of

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Speaker 1: archery targets around the area, and so I just feel

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Speaker 1: like it's I just know it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where you should ask better, ask for forgiveness than permission.

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Speaker 1: That's right, unless, of course, forgiveness is when you fence.

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Speaker 1: Sorry about your friend, Well, it's all fenced, so they're like,

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Speaker 1: the worst thing I can do is probably plunge one

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Speaker 1: through somebody's fence, And so I just like, hey, dude,

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Speaker 1: can I can I buy you like seven extra vertical

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Speaker 1: pieces of your fence so in case I put an

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Speaker 1: arrow through it, I can. There's a guy in my

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Speaker 1: neighborhod place that does the exact same thing. He's got

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Speaker 1: his target like the back of his backyard. He has

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Speaker 1: his massive open gate and he goes to like the

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Speaker 1: sidewalk and through the gate. Yeah yeah, I mean you

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Speaker 1: gotta do that, um, but I will, I admit to like,

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Speaker 1: I felt I feel really good about accuracy but my form,

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Speaker 1: like my mental archery games is so far off, it's off,

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Speaker 1: and I can't. I mean, I'm to that point and

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Speaker 1: I have friends that are do this and like serially

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Speaker 1: do this, like do this every year, where they're just

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Speaker 1: switching everything up, change my stabilizer, put more weight on it.

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Speaker 1: And that's where I'm at right now. But it's not

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Speaker 1: that I'm shooting portally. It's just I can't get comfortable.

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Speaker 1: I can't get to the point where I'm not worried

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Speaker 1: about something. And I think it's just mental, but I'm not.

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Speaker 1: It's and it's not that I'm it's not that I'm

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Speaker 1: jumping the trigger. It's nothing like that. It just feels

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Speaker 1: like not comfortable. It doesn't feel it's almost like you

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Speaker 1: want to be not comfortable. Yeah, maybe maybe I've tried

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Speaker 1: all the tricks that that you know, some of the

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Speaker 1: experts have taught me over the years, which you know,

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Speaker 1: like I play, put a little speaker behind my my elbow,

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Speaker 1: my back elbow, and then I pull towards that like

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Speaker 1: instead of help you not jump the trigger, you pull

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Speaker 1: towards that music, just like send your elbow towards that music.

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Speaker 1: You try to feel that muscle in your back pulling.

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Speaker 1: I've done all that, and I've switched to releases about

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Speaker 1: six times. I have three different styles and releases. I

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Speaker 1: keep going back and forth. So anyways, anybody that wants

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Speaker 1: to write in th HC the meter dot com and

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Speaker 1: help me. Maybe this is kind of like the first

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Speaker 1: asked to like ask the Eagle practice what would you

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Speaker 1: do to fix your brain? Oh? I thought you're gonna

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Speaker 1: say this is the Eagle asks where you have been?

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Speaker 1: And I are like, dude, we don't know what to do.

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Speaker 1: When we call somebody and they help. I like this idea.

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Speaker 1: We call a listener, like, hey man, we can struggle them.

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Speaker 1: What we can call your boy John Dudley. John Dudley's man.

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Speaker 1: He's a sense a man. And I've never shot I've

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Speaker 1: never been more comfortable. I've never shot better when John

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Speaker 1: was available, Like when I could talk to him and

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Speaker 1: say like, hey man, what's going on? He'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we'll do this, send me a video and I'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: And I think that kind of like that thing has

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Speaker 1: helped me to know what I'm doing wrong when I'm

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Speaker 1: doing it. That doesn't help me fix always fix the

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Speaker 1: thing and that's That's one thing that I tell a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that are new to it as the

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Speaker 1: one thing. I'm not the best bow shot in the world.

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Speaker 1: But learning from people like John Dudley and others, it

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Speaker 1: was like, now I know what I'm doing wrong. If

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Speaker 1: I'm shooting low left, I can tell you where I

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Speaker 1: close my eyes and tell you where the air is

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Speaker 1: gonna miss. You know, when I released that area, be like,

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Speaker 1: oh that was low left, hope that was high right. Hope,

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Speaker 1: that's dead center. And so at least you have that

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Speaker 1: knowledge where you're not guessing why that air didn't get

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Speaker 1: here I supposed to go, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 1: your form, So you know, maybe right in and help

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Speaker 1: Yoanni with his broadhead problem. Did you shoot mechanicals fixed everything? No, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm gonna I'm gonna ready for an elk hunt,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't think I'm gonna shoot mechanicals, not

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Speaker 1: an elk. I know people do with great success, but

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Speaker 1: I think that'll be an enduring debate in the hunting world.

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Speaker 1: Just fixed. I've got a couple of different fixed blades

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Speaker 1: I'm messing with. Like I said, I think a little

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Speaker 1: bit of bow tune and I'll get there. Okay, All right,

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Speaker 1: well let's let's let's give people a little precursor. What

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Speaker 1: asked the eagle? What has asked the eagle? That's right, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's where how I don't know how we got you

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Speaker 1: actually asking me about my fall? Another step back, and

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Speaker 1: but you want to you want to take okay, go

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Speaker 1: back to my hunt's middle step. Uh so yeah, Colorado Elk.

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Speaker 1: I'm going with Jason Phelps. Phelps games calls, which is

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Speaker 1: gonna be awesome, gum. Nothing nothing like having a dude

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Speaker 1: that builds game calls calling for you. But the flip

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Speaker 1: side of that is that if I shoot one or

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Speaker 1: if I get my opportunity call for him, then I

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Speaker 1: have to call for him and I have to really,

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Speaker 1: you know, step make sure my aimes on points. So again,

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Speaker 1: two weeks before the season, guess why I did last night?

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Speaker 1: Put it. I'll call in my mouth, but I will

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Speaker 1: say that for me, making sweet Elk sounds is a

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Speaker 1: lot easier just to pick back up and shooting that bom.

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Speaker 1: Uh you're feeling that for me? Eater hunts. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: watch out for that on YouTube. That's right, be out

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Speaker 1: when they come back. In a quarter of one. Probably

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Speaker 1: next year when finally we're out of the pandemic, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna rease this baby. Uh let's see what else do

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Speaker 1: I have? I drew a really bit and uh Montana

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Speaker 1: elk rifle tag, which I'll be hunting like late October.

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Speaker 1: I got ten days set aside for that. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have a big wall tent. Hopefully many many friends calm

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Speaker 1: to help find a big bull for me. I'll come

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Speaker 1: help you. Okay, yeah, I'll be there and I'll be

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Speaker 1: there for the opener, luring your binos and a dryp

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Speaker 1: on easy. Um. What else? Going to Wisconsin for white

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Speaker 1: tailt hunt with my dad archery, which I'm very excited about.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna swing around in a tree saddle for a

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Speaker 1: whole week. Body. Yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think it's great. I got the kneepads set up going.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, you really can shoot three sixty degrees out

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Speaker 1: of one of those things, and like there's no drawback

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Speaker 1: that I've seen that I that I can figure out yet,

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Speaker 1: Like you can sit there. Last year I sat two

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Speaker 1: full days during gun season in November. Um in it

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Speaker 1: super comfy all day. What I like about it. The

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Speaker 1: best is that there is no slack. You're always under tension,

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Speaker 1: So it's not like if you fall asleep or slip

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Speaker 1: or whatever, there's gonna be like this drop or the

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Speaker 1: sensation of falling and then it, you know, picks up.

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Speaker 1: You're just always under tension. So even if you slip out,

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Speaker 1: like you'll kind of depending on how far you've leaned

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Speaker 1: out from the tree, you'll swing back to the tree

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Speaker 1: and that's it. It's very reassuring. Oh yeah, you just

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Speaker 1: had to get used to trusting. Uh, you know that

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Speaker 1: rope that it's holding you there. There's a long debate

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Speaker 1: tree steps or climbing sticks. Man, I'm gonna use sticks

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Speaker 1: because they actually seemed easier. I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's probably new screws these days that go in super

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Speaker 1: super fast and you can zip right up there. That

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Speaker 1: is satisfying. When you get one of those things going,

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Speaker 1: it just starts rocking in the tree. You know, I

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Speaker 1: should probably bring both. I don't have any problem with

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Speaker 1: putting a couple of holes in a tree me either.

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Speaker 1: I've I've had I've had very experiences both ways. Last

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Speaker 1: year at then on the back forty mark Kenny gave

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Speaker 1: me these climbing sticks I was unfamiliar with, and boy

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Speaker 1: did I struggle because the tree was just one of

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Speaker 1: those trees that had a serpentine pattern going it's all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it just seemed like it was way too loud.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, if I just had a handful of

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Speaker 1: tree steps and I could just screw them in real quickly,

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Speaker 1: I'd be up this tree and you know, fifteen minutes,

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Speaker 1: but instead of forty five minutes of banging these sticks

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Speaker 1: against the tree trying to wrap yourself around a big

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Speaker 1: tree and then get get the straps. But see, I

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Speaker 1: think your problem there is that someone gave you those

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Speaker 1: things like the hour before you're going into the field.

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Speaker 1: Just yeah, yeah, so if you yeah, that's another debate

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Speaker 1: right in dot com. Maybe we'll do that for us

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Speaker 1: to eagle. But anyway, yeah, any other big I'm going

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Speaker 1: you'll there hunt with Steve from an episode of Metia

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Speaker 1: dur in Colorado for fourth season, which is pretty special.

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Speaker 1: I've never gotten hunt. Yeah, and this year it's late

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Speaker 1: and so we're hunting, like I think it's like the

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Speaker 1: tow of November, which is way late for Colorado. So

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Speaker 1: we should have some pretty good action. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: I'm topping finishing it all off, rounding it off with

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Speaker 1: a trip to Arkansas for a double um where I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go and do some raccoon hunting with Clay Newcom

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Speaker 1: and then after that I'm going to do some speckled

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Speaker 1: belly goose hunting with Danielle Pruett and Jonathan Wilkins. Black Revival.

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Speaker 1: Oh really nice? Yeah? Oh yeah, man, that's a good

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Speaker 1: it's a good time. And then all like a lot

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Speaker 1: of Mediator Hunts episodes at all, all of them well,

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Speaker 1: well besides that mule deer hunt with Steve Um who else?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I also drew a rifle pronghorn tag here

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Speaker 1: in Montana. No, not far, only an hour away Montana.

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Speaker 1: I didn't draw anything, and then they were sold out

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Speaker 1: of surplus. I know, crazy, first time maybe ever ever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so I I had. I had a fallback plan.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry, everybody know you're worried. I had a fallback plan, wyomings,

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Speaker 1: I will be hunting pronghorn here. Yeah. No, man, the

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Speaker 1: demand is high. Its crazy, that's and you know there's

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Speaker 1: a whole another conversation about good and bad of of

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Speaker 1: promoting the outdoors in the way that we do, and

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Speaker 1: and what the pandemic has caused and all those things.

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Speaker 1: But I thought, I feel lucky to live in a

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Speaker 1: state like Montan, Like although we're friendly to nonresidents, we

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Speaker 1: kind of limited and it's not like you go to

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Speaker 1: Colorado and everybody's just like, well, I didn't draw anywhere else,

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Speaker 1: So let's go out to Colorado and just pack the woods.

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Speaker 1: Do I love I love I love Texas. I love

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Speaker 1: everybody listening in Texas. But that was, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the Texas p h A chapter. That's what these guys did.

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Speaker 1: You know that most most of them we're going to Colorado.

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Speaker 1: Well it's close, it's close, right, you can make it.

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Speaker 1: You can zip up there really quick. It's pretty easy

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Speaker 1: to get. It's it's you know, decently easy to draw.

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Speaker 1: But then if you don't draw, you can, you know,

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Speaker 1: famously just getting over the counter teg. So we won't

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Speaker 1: mention some of the other states that have good over

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Speaker 1: the counter opportunities, but there are many. So I'm getting

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Speaker 1: to you guys will enjoy um. In a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go down to Louisiana do a gator hunt

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Speaker 1: with Troy and Jacob Landry, the swamp people from the

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Speaker 1: History Channel. I've been down there a bunch of times.

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Speaker 1: That's fun. So we'll do like an audio experience for

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Speaker 1: that for everybody. There's no chance that isn't hilarious. Hold

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Speaker 1: on audio experience. That means Phils included. I invited Phil.

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Speaker 1: I said, Phil, you're welcome to come, and Phil was

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Speaker 1: a little I think he has some trepidation. Well, it

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Speaker 1: was just kind of a last minute thing. It was.

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Speaker 1: It's just tough because school starting and it's hard for

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Speaker 1: me to be like, hey, I'm going to Louisiana for

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Speaker 1: two weeks to hunt gators with that over weeks. No,

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Speaker 1: not two weeks, it's like two days. No if into

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of like like a like short notice

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Speaker 1: short So I don't think I'm gonna make it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I I wield the the little recorder pretty well.

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Speaker 1: I feel so we're gonna get wool and should just

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Speaker 1: think it would be a great way for to fill

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Speaker 1: something outdoor experience experience, and it is. It is one

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Speaker 1: of the more gnarly experiences that that you can you

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Speaker 1: can have in the outdoors. You basically if you've ever

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Speaker 1: seen the show. You basically put a rotten piece of

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Speaker 1: chicken on a hook, you drop, you to tie that

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Speaker 1: hook to a tree, hang a hook down on the water.

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Speaker 1: You do about twenty thirty of those, and you go back,

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Speaker 1: have yourself a cocktail, wake up early in the morning,

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Speaker 1: get on the boat, you go check those. If that

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Speaker 1: if that tree is shaken, as Trey Andrew says, it's

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Speaker 1: a tree shaker, then you have to get the rope.

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Speaker 1: And you're literally pulling up a giant dinosaur out of

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Speaker 1: the water. And some other dude is there with a

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Speaker 1: twenty two with no sights, and so if you can

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Speaker 1: get that alligator's head out of the water, he puts

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Speaker 1: you have to put that twenty two at the exact

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Speaker 1: right spot boom, right between the eyes. Then you pull

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Speaker 1: it up into the boat. And if you if you

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Speaker 1: fill all your tags for the day, you end up

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Speaker 1: with a fairly small boat full of gators. So you

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Speaker 1: end up either sitting on a dead gator or at

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Speaker 1: least sitting on a on a seat and putting your

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Speaker 1: feet on the gator. And it's just even after they

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Speaker 1: shoot him, do they take their mouth shut. So you

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Speaker 1: need me to call your gal. I mean it might help, honestly.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get to ask the Eagle. Hopefully everybody's

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Speaker 1: now excited for our hunt with with Troy and Jacob Landry. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, my dad's coming actually to Montana ton Elk

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Speaker 1: and opening day. So well then you can't come and

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Speaker 1: help me like you just promised, you know this opening

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Speaker 1: day archery. Oh so I can come help you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I help you there. But then yeah, I got Missouri

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Speaker 1: Brakes archery tag, got my Wyoming prong, worn Idaho mule deer.

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling pretty good. Feeling real good about it. Um,

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Speaker 1: little Charles Rodney action later in the year, nice rabbit hunt.

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Speaker 1: All right, asked the eagles, give us give us the

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Speaker 1: full now we're finally made it there, give us the

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Speaker 1: full rundown of of asked the Eagle is going to

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Speaker 1: be a podcast? And you did a few? Yeah, very

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Speaker 1: much like based on like a not an old timing.

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Speaker 1: They still do plenty of them, but just to basically

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Speaker 1: like a call in radio show where folks would call

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Speaker 1: in and we would they would just ask hunting and

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Speaker 1: fishing questions to me and do my best to answer them. Yep,

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Speaker 1: and Uh, it's it's you got Metator hunts, you get

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Speaker 1: Metator TV. All the stuff that you do, we just

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Speaker 1: can't find. Maybe one day you'll turn it to its

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Speaker 1: own podcast. Yeah, we'll see. I'm hoping that we can breathe,

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Speaker 1: breathe enough life into it that'll excite the This will

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Speaker 1: be fun though, just to do a couple here and

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Speaker 1: there and plug him in And yeah, as and as

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Speaker 1: I told you, you you need like i've every time we've

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Speaker 1: had a listener on this show, almost every time, and

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Speaker 1: Phil can attest almost every time. The listeners do amazing.

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Speaker 1: These people are thoughtful, they're funny, they get they get

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Speaker 1: our humor, they get what we're trying to accomplish, and

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Speaker 1: they always come through them. And so no pressure on Brandon,

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Speaker 1: who were about to call? Who wrote in um, But

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do our best to answer questions and we'll

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Speaker 1: see where we get to. You ready to call Brandon?

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Speaker 1: No telephone needed, no skype Hell Brandon, Ben O'Brien, how's

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Speaker 1: it going? Man? Hey Danny, how's it going? Can you

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Speaker 1: hear me all the way in Canada? Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: little little okay? Phil? Is this okay? Can you hear Brandon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll make it work. Cands great brand. Say hi to Phil. Hey, Brandon,

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Speaker 1: how are you fantastic? Buddy? Is there anything you need

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Speaker 1: to say to Phil? I know we we did. We

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Speaker 1: talked the other day, and is there anything you need

386
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 1: to say to Phil? Would you like to to try

387
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 1: to get film motivated for his first hunt? Just just

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Speaker 1: floor is yours to an outward profession of my unconditional

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Speaker 1: love for you, Phil, and I just I really hope that,

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Speaker 1: I really hope that your first time goes great whenever

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Speaker 1: that happens, so that we can like milk for it

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Speaker 1: until then. I I appreciate that. I gotta say that

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00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: was a lot more um effective than Chuck Norris and

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00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: David Hasselhoff combined. You've given Brden the power of Hasselhoff

395
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Speaker 1: and Nora. That's right, Okay, that's fun. The rest of

396
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: my life is going to be pointless. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for Hey, we're making people's lives. Brandon, say Hoti, Yanni Patellis, Hey, Janni,

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Speaker 1: how's it going. It's going well, man. Thanks for calling

399
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Speaker 1: in or thanks for accepting our call. Yeah, either way,

400
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 1: for these I wouldn't miss it for the world. The

401
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 1: radio shows of the twenty one century. They call you,

402
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: we call you, Yeah, exactly, that's that's funny. I was

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00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: talking to my grandma about it, and I have to like,

404
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, you have to explain a podcast. She goes,

405
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: you know, anything new in your life, Like, well, yeah,

406
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: actually something really awesome. But then you have to explain

407
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: what a podcast is and then make a cell phone

408
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: for how you get the podcast. You can take a

409
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: radio show just it's like a radio show. When you

410
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: were a kid, and that's how you've watched TV was

411
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Speaker 1: over the radio. It's like that. Yeah, podcasts are reverse radio.

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00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: It's like it's the radio, but the opposite. That's fine. Now, Brandon,

413
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Speaker 1: you're you've made it onto the first ever actually aired

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Speaker 1: asked the Eagle segment and Yanni. And Yanni is prepared

415
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 1: to take your question. He's prepared to answer it and

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Speaker 1: to the best of his ability, I will assist him

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Speaker 1: in any way that I can, and so give us

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Speaker 1: a little bit of backstory and then, um, briefly your question. Sure, So,

419
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Speaker 1: I've been hunting since forever. Part of I guess third

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Speaker 1: or fourth generation uh Northern Ontario hunter. Um, and I

421
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: wasn't really introduced to the idea of back country hunting

422
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: until I've watched Mediator on Netflix when it came out

423
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: on Netflix. So, um, I've been really inspired to kind

424
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: of take that route with my hunting career because I

425
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: was always really inspired by the way Steve talked about, uh,

426
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,479
Speaker 1: the ethics involved and the connection to your food, right,

427
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: which is something that you know, you go to deer

428
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: camp and you get deer and you shoot moose, and

429
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: that's just kind of you know that we hunt because

430
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: it's cheap food, right, rather than looking at the broader

431
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: ethical background of it. So, uh, this year, I actually

432
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 1: just accepted a position at a separate I've been selling

433
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 1: cards for three years, just accepted a position and management

434
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: another store. So I'm gonna be pretty short on time,

435
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: so i won't be able to do the typical week

436
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: at the camps. So I thought, this is how I'm

437
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: going to get my back country start. I'm gonna do

438
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 1: a three day back country archery whitetail hunt on public land,

439
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: of course, because you gotta. Um. So my question for

440
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: you on and anybody really is how sorry, what are

441
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: some things that you would suggest for a first time

442
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: d I Y solo back country hunter? Um? Anything dear

443
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: lessons you wish you would have learned before your first

444
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: hunt instead of on it or out it. Um, anything

445
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: that you think would be important to know going into this. Yeah,

446
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: how it sounds interesting. Back country white tail is something

447
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: I've never done, but I should probably add it all

448
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: my to my bucket list. How far you plan on

449
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: going in? I should be about four to five kilometers,

450
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: that's kind of you gotta get past the you gotta

451
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: get past the moose to get to the deer that

452
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: they don't cross too much habitat up here, which I

453
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: should mention I wouldn't be going for moos if it

454
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: were possible to get a tag, which it's not good.

455
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: Well right the side impossible right hunt anyways, Um, so yeah,

456
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: probably four or five kilometers in nice um and you're

457
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: archery hunting. Yeah, yeah, uh, definitely bring an extra release. Yeah,

458
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: here's a rule. Two is one, one is none. It

459
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: was a rule you must follow up. You know, there's

460
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: a lot of items that you're always trying to figure out, Like,

461
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: you know, if you're gonna bring it, you need at

462
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: least to have like two or more uh reasons or

463
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: uses for that item, which is a good way to

464
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: think about your you know, bad country gear, and that

465
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: prevents you from doubling up sometimes or having two items

466
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: that are kind of doing the same thing. But the release, man,

467
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I've yet to lose one myself.

468
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure it will happen someday, but I definitely saw

469
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: it quite over the years, quite a few clients that

470
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: would lose a release and not have a backup in camp,

471
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: and so we would be forced to, you know, lose

472
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: a day of hunting because we had to run into

473
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: town and uh and go and buy a release and

474
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: definitely bring a couple of those. Um. But I was

475
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: thinking about it over the weekend. We we knew your

476
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: question on Friday, so I gotta think about what I

477
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: was gonna tell you. But I was thinking about my

478
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: first solo back country hunt, and I was chasing elk around,

479
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: and I just remember how heavy my pack was, and

480
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: I remember like halfway through the first morning thinking like,

481
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: you know what, this isn't gonna really work with what

482
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: I have on my back, Like I literally cannot chase

483
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: elk around. So I'm either gonna have to drop my

484
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: stuff and make a camp or I need to lighten

485
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: up so much that you know, I can actually still

486
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: chase with with my backpack on. So that's something that

487
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: you need to figure out, is if you're gonna like

488
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: make a camp and then just you know, bust off

489
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: with just like a smaller pack and uh come back

490
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: every evening, or if you're gonna try to be light

491
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: enough where you can actually hunt um with the pack on.

492
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you're doing ambush or spot

493
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: and stock or what your strategy is going to be,

494
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: but I have a plan for that because Yeah, I

495
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: was in there with I don't know, it was probably

496
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: fifty five sixty pound unpack, and it was just impossible

497
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: to chase elk with that pack on my back. That's

498
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: a great point to about. Wait, when people think about

499
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: I've heard people throw out eighty pounds and and and

500
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: this is in terms of packing out an elk or

501
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: or whatever, which you probably won't have that issue with

502
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: them with a white tail, but if you're packing the

503
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: whole thing out, it'll be it'll be fairly heavy, that's right.

504
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: But sixty pound pack is imp Like that is impossibly

505
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: heavy to move around with. I don't care how much

506
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: you you can you can roll down the trail, no

507
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: big deal, you know, Lottie Dotty. It's it's a nice

508
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: stroll with sixties pound pack. But when you started getting

509
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: off trail and jumping logs and trying to make quick

510
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: moves to get out in front of an animal, it's

511
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: gonna be much different. But I'm guessing your white tail

512
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: hunt's not going to be quite as it won't be

513
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: quite as much chasing as there isn't an elk hunt. Um,

514
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: what do you what's your strategy for the hunt? Brandon

515
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: so whearing Whearing going. I've only been there once, um,

516
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: and it was it was a few years ago. But

517
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: I know they're I know they are allowed to deer

518
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: there on other on other hunters account. Um. So that

519
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: being said, I mean I suppose I'll find some sign

520
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: and try to hunt over it, But I also did

521
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: I did plan on doing some moving around, um, rather

522
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: than having a base camp, just because I'm not sure

523
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: where I'm going to find the most like the highest

524
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: concentration of deer. Yeah, now are you gonna Are you

525
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: gonna somehow getting get into a tree when you say

526
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: hunt over it? Uh? No, I I imagine that hill

527
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: is there. No, I I don't have a something like

528
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: an interested in uh because while listening to Kenyan talk

529
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: about it, um is saddles your saddles. But it's not

530
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: something I I don't know anybody who uses one personally,

531
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: so it's kind of hard to get that the exposure

532
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: to it. Um And I mean I do, I have

533
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: a climbing stand, but but be bringing it be much

534
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: too loud and heavy. It's not exactly a new style.

535
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: It is probably the very first one ever since Yes,

536
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: you plan to find an overlook and then be able

537
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: to glass and try to find where some critters are moving. Yes, yeah, exactly,

538
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: I mean sort of sort of see if I can

539
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: pick out it's a little swampy back there. Um. So

540
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how much success I'll have with classing,

541
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: but I hope, I hope probably able to find something

542
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: at least semi open. I mean, it's really it's still

543
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: very full like a follia right now. So I know

544
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: once I get into the falling and I have a

545
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: lot like it's the big woods, so I don't have

546
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: a lot better visibility to take advantage of. Yeah, I

547
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: would say that'll be probably the easiest way to do it.

548
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: I would say to you talk about like specifically. Something

549
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: I think that's probably more universal for everybody is organizing

550
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: your gear, and to me, like a stuff sack, like

551
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: you gotta have I go with anything I need to

552
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: to dress and clean. An animal kids goes in one.

553
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: I'll call a stuff sack, but you can call it whatever.

554
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: Dry bag doesn't really matter. I got a medical kid

555
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: that goes in a small dry bag, and so organizing

556
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: your gear in that fashion, that way you're not rummaging

557
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: through your pack and there's a bunch of stuff at

558
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: the bottom. I always put my food in one dry bag.

559
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: I always make sure food wise that I got um,

560
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: a jet boil or some such item, and then m

561
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: R Eas and I always pack myself some like gummy

562
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: bears and snicker bar. You actually eat m R. Eas. Yeah, well,

563
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean that's what I call them. You're talking about

564
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: freeze drive freeze, dried meals whatever m R Eas meals

565
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: ready to eat, yeah, um, And so that's that's what

566
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: I just try to make sure you're organized that way

567
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: you don't have a that It also helps for the

568
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: shifting weight of your pack, if you're able to put

569
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: certain things in certain spots and lay it out in

570
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: a way that makes makes that pack feel more comfortable

571
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: and you can keep your gear dry. That's something I

572
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: definitely do now religiously. Is that just about everything in

573
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: my pack? Besides I don't know my water bladder and stuff.

574
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: It just doesn't matter if it gets wet, but everything

575
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: is packed into dry bags, like within my backpack, even

576
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: though I'll have a rain cover over it. All my

577
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: clothes are in a dry bag. The food is probably

578
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: in a dry bag, which that kind of take out

579
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: easily to hang in a tree in the dry bag. Um,

580
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: obviously you're sleeping bag should be in a in a

581
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: dry bag. Tent doesn't need to be but I think

582
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: for did you say it's just three days, Yeah, yeah,

583
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: I would just you know, three nights, three nights, yeah,

584
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 1: air on light and bringing less because it's not like

585
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna starve or or you know, like it's it's

586
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 1: it's not like a major expedition. So just in knowing that,

587
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: you'll be so much more comfortable and it'll be you'll

588
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: spend less energy, will be easier getting around gold light.

589
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: If you're looking at something and you're him and han

590
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: about it, like leave it behind, like don't bring camp shoes,

591
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: like just living your boots for four days, you'll be fine,

592
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I was gonna mention I saw in

593
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: your email that you're bringing a jet boil. I don't

594
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: know if you've already purchased that or if you've already

595
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: taking it out of the packaging, have you? No, I haven't. Actually,

596
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: it's funny I was. I had meant to go buy

597
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: it after I got off the bone with Ben after work.

598
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: I'm probably not right after um, and I was thinking, like, well,

599
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: I fair waiting to see what they say. Yeah, man,

600
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: I got a recommendation for you. We all just recently

601
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: over the course of the summer. I say we all,

602
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: Steve and I, Um, I forget who had one, and

603
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: we used it, and then Steve bought one and I

604
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: borrowed Steve's for a trip. But the MSSAR reactor stove,

605
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: it's basically the same idea as a jet boil. And

606
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: maybe jet boils, I mean we I think the last

607
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: one we bought was a couple of years ago. Maybe

608
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: they've changed their product, but I swear it seemed like

609
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: this reactor, like you couldn't walk away from it before

610
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: the water was boiling. It was just that much faster

611
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: and just like the way that it closes and locks

612
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: down and kind of the lids a little bit tighter

613
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: and better on it. It's got a it's had a

614
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: built in handle. Um. I'd highly recommend checking out that

615
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: ms ARE reactor stove. It's not awesome. Yeah, I used

616
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: MSR water filters. I was an Army conduct for a while,

617
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: so I have very limited back country experience. But it's

618
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: all it's all been in groups, right, so it's time.

619
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: It is much different. Um, because I was an Army

620
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: Cup for seven years. I didn't eight team day expedition

621
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: through alcome part you're in Ontario. But yeah, I mean

622
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: that's different because you have so many people to carry

623
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: so many different things. Right, well, this is just me, Right,

624
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: how do I itemize what I'm gonna bring in that

625
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing? Um? Well, and I would say, you know,

626
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: tent wise and talk about tents tents where sometimes weight

627
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: gets unwieldy. Um. I carry the the stone Glacier sky

628
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: air ult It's just basically a you know, a nice

629
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: little tar if you put your try to use this

630
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: wrecking poles tent poles you tied down to the ground.

631
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: It's it's a nice shelter. It sounds like the time

632
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: of usually be going. You're not gonna be looking at

633
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of snow or any you know, you just

634
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: be looking to get out of the wind, to get

635
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: out of the elements, and and that this thing. Only

636
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: ways I've been looking up here, only ways ten point

637
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: three ounces and that's that's a huge that's a huge deal.

638
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: So if you're only going for three days, Yeah, so

639
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: that's that's a big sometimes a big weight, a big

640
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: weight issue. So anything else he anni as we as

641
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: we uh give Brandon all the confidence in the world

642
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: to get going here. No, man, I think more than anything,

643
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: you just got to go out there and uh experience

644
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: it and um you know you'll you'll learn from doing.

645
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's no substitute for that. So good

646
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: luck out there, man Um. I hope you do get

647
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: a get a big one. But I would strongly consider man.

648
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: I know it's it's coming down to the wire and

649
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to buy a thousand bucks worth of

650
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: gear right before you go. But man if I was

651
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: going to archery whitetail hunting, just knowing how spooky those

652
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: buggers are, and how tough it is hunting them on

653
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: the ground, you might consider getting yourself into one of

654
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: them tree saddles. Um, I've been shooting out of one

655
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, and boy am I excited about

656
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: using it this fall. Well, they just it looks so

657
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: much more convenient, Like, I mean, we all love a

658
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: tree then, but I mean, at the same time, it's

659
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: not like I'm about to go carry a ground blind

660
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: in there with me. So I mean that thing is

661
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: so it's so easy to pack around. It looks like

662
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: like the pack I've got. I've got a badland, which

663
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: because I read a bunch about it and then I

664
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: immediately saw one come up on like the next day. Um,

665
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys talked to you down there,

666
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: it's like we don't. That's all I want to use

667
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: it once. So it's like a hundred bucks. Yeah, between

668
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: between that and the kilometers, we have no idea what

669
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: you're saying. Man, so confused complete Greek? Yeah, well yeah,

670
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: I mean I made used to pick one of those

671
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: up and I was just like score. So I'm like, well,

672
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: it's like you know, I man, you gotta try to

673
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: explain to the life like, Hey, so I saved all

674
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: this money on the bed, which means I get to

675
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: spend this much text on everything else right now. Well,

676
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: cubic inch pack, Brandon, Um, you're gonna be tight man,

677
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: I've done I usually. I used to have that pack,

678
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: and I did an overnight once in that pack, and uh,

679
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: you know I made it work. But boy, you're gonna

680
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: have to pack light buddy, real life. It looked big.

681
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: And when I was picking it up, line and stuff

682
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: up to putt and I was like, oh, I may

683
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: have may have overestimated this. Yeah for sure. Hey, quick

684
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: question for you. Um, since you're a professional car deal

685
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: wheeler and dealer, I'm looking at it, can you give

686
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: me like a hot tip for making sure I get

687
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: a good deal? Yeah, I mean at least this. So here,

688
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: here's what I do. If I get somebody's really grinding

689
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: me down on price, I asked them what I'm allowed

690
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: to make? You know, what do I gotta do? Everybody

691
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: wants to brkness, everybody wants to put a day together.

692
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to lose money. So if I was you,

693
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: I'd say, is that a thing? Interruption? Brandon? But is

694
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: that a thing. Does anybody actually ever sell a car

695
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: and lose money? Yeah? Really yes, and you guys just

696
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: make it up on another vehicle, that's right. Yeah, And sometimes,

697
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: I mean it depends to if you if you look

698
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: at it. If you're working at a franchise dealer, you

699
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: know you want to sometimes you wanna get somebody, say,

700
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: somebody's stopping out of town. So say if I if

701
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: I work for a forward store and I've got somebody

702
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: who I know lives in my town and they bring

703
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: me a quote from another town's board dealer, right, it's

704
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: actually more detrimental to my business to have more vehicles

705
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: running around with another story sticker on it because they think, oh, well,

706
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: that store has given a great deal. So it's so

707
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: great that people don't want to shop at the local

708
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: Ford store. Right. So if if I have a chance

709
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: to keep somebody business in town, I might take a

710
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: dump on that deal, just you know, because if you

711
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: get it back in service, or maybe they'll buy a

712
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: warranty too, and that might help your break even or

713
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: or something. You've got to kind of trust your staff

714
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: that way. But yeah, it happens. It happens more than

715
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: you think. To um, I mean a lot of the time.

716
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I've in three years of sales and I've

717
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: taken plenty of deals that I shouldn't have, and I

718
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: mean it all really comes down to when someone's business

719
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: is more valuable. I mean, if somebody comes from three

720
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: hours away and they say, oh, you know my local

721
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: dealer is doing this, Okay, we'll go there, I'm never

722
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: gonna see you again. You know you're not gonna come

723
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: spend money here to get your truck six and you've

724
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: probably not going to come back for your next vehicle.

725
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, all right, So what's the what's the hot tip?

726
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: What's the hot tip? When I'm wheeling and dealing, I

727
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: would say, if you can, if you can really nail

728
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: down what kind of truck you're looking for before you

729
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: had through, I've got to nail down to to like

730
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 1: mileage year, everything I'm going to use. I'm going for

731
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: an old truck because I'm a I just love my

732
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: UH two thousands have O two Tundra, and I'm trying

733
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: to buy an O six Tundra, which is the last

734
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: year that they made that body style. I'm trying to

735
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: find with less than a hun less than a hundred

736
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: thousand miles. I want the crew cab needs to be

737
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: forward drive. I don't care what color it is. If

738
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: it has a top runic great, If not, I'll find

739
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: one um, but that's it. You know, I'd rather not

740
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: have a limited version. I mean, leather is nice, but

741
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: all the other bells and whistles I could care less.

742
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: Four And I don't need those running boards that I

743
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: feel like they're just gonna get beat up in the woods.

744
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: But I know exactly what I'm looking for. And you're

745
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: you're a tall guy. You're a tall guy. You don't

746
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: need running boards. See I have a seventeen Silverado and

747
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: I'm like five ft nothing, So I yeah, it really

748
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: sucks not having But if I would do, if you can,

749
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: if you can land land yourself on a particular unit,

750
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, say that Jim's Used Cars down the street

751
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: has your exact Tundra that you know you want, just

752
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: walk in. Save the guy at the time, just say hey,

753
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: I'll buy this right now if you give it to

754
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: me for five bucks overcast you know, and you know

755
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: a hell oftentimes I mean at least me personally. If

756
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: somebody does that and say, yeah, I know this is

757
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: a truck I want, I'm going to buy it? Yes, right,

758
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: because now he's got an offer. It's a lot easier

759
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: to work with an offer. But how do you how

760
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: do I know what cost is for that guy? So

761
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: it depends on how he bought it. The chances are

762
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: most people and at least this is up here most

763
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: used cards. You're looking at the market. So he should

764
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: bring you back that sticker price. Mine is two grand

765
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: question that you might be able to jam them for

766
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: a little bit more. And I mean find out if

767
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: but like you know, if they sell a warranty, maybe

768
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: say you know, I I'm sitar and going with an

769
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: extended warrant. You what can you tell me about that?

770
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: Give me a chance to sell you on something else. Right,

771
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: they're gonna they'll they'll sell you. They'll sell you the

772
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: truck at a lower profit, just hoping that you're going

773
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: to make it up in the in the financial services office.

774
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: Where did you do that or not? Doesn't not, It

775
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to get to the PRIs on the truck.

776
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: This might be the most useful segment of THHC of

777
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: all time. I was just I was just thinking the

778
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: same thing. I don't even need a truck and I'm

779
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: about to go buy I'm afraid. I'm afraid for Breedon's life,

780
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: like he's gonna get taken out by like this like

781
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: a shadow cabal, because for divulging all these secrets, these secrets.

782
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: Yeah no, and who's the who's the guy that who's

783
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: the guy that got got taken out over the morale recipe?

784
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: Yeah you're that guy. Well, thanks, Brandon, Man, I might

785
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: be um, I might be even test driving one this afternoon,

786
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: So I'll apply what you've taught me and uh, let

787
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: you know how it goes. We'll report back on the

788
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: next asked the Eagle. Segment there, yeah, there you go.

789
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: Let me know, let me know what close on Instagram.

790
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: I'll get the message right on. Well, hey man, good

791
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 1: luck all your hunt and thanks for calling. Thanks guys,

792
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for the opportunity to you know,

793
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: actually talk to you guys that really appreciate it. And

794
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: I wish you well. I wish you will in your

795
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: truck purchase, Johnny, and uh so I wish you walked

796
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: on your first Thank you so much. All right, man, Thanks,

797
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: we'll talk to you soon. Good luck out there, alright,

798
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,959
Speaker 1: asked the Eagle, number one down in the books, done

799
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: one of many. I hope that helps. Is it Brandon

800
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: or Brandon brand Man? I kept calling him Brandon? I hope,

801
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: I hope that helps. And sorry, sorry for the name

802
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: that you took over my station of calling people the

803
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: wrong name consistently people at email into the show, Johnny

804
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: now just put out of the phonetic the phonetic version

805
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: of their name besides their last name, because I can

806
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: never get it right. It could be Smith, and I'll

807
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: be like smithe, it doesn't really matter. Um. All right, Well,

808
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep rolling on as the Eagle, you know.

809
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: I hope hopefully you guys got a little bit out

810
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: of that. If you're going on a back hunter, and

811
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's white tails, doesn't matter if

812
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: it's elk, there's always that how do you pack? How

813
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: do you you know? What do you do? Um? And

814
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: so we'll I like those questions that are a layered.

815
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: That one had a lot of layers to it. Yohnnie

816
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: talked about that for days, for days and days. All right,

817
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: Well we're gonna get into We're gonna switch gears here,

818
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: We're gonna get into the great and powerful the legendary

819
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: doctor Valarious Geist. I had Dr Hilarious Geist on probably

820
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: a year you know, a little bit less than a

821
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: year ago. Last, I believe his last October phil if

822
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: if I remember directly, sounds about right. Um, And we

823
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: went through everything. We weren't really prepared for him last time.

824
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: We literally went over to an unglick conference that was

825
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: at a hotel across from our office and begged him

826
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: to come over and sit down with me, and then

827
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: it went. It was like three magical hours and I

828
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: wasn't sure what happened in those hours. Um. So now

829
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: he's back and and we definitely want to talk about

830
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: last time. He talked about predator pits, a lot about predation.

831
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: He has some controversial within the within the wildlife biology

832
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: and management world, at least the modern world. He has

833
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: what I think are some controversial opinions. But we talked

834
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: through those and we got him to a point where, um,

835
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: he was speaking about what he believes to be um

836
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: intelligent intervention and something that conservation really needs to understand

837
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: a little bit more. So I will just say before

838
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: we get into this, I have to issue an apology,

839
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: a pre apology, because I feel like my interviewing skills

840
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: were way off on this one. I did my best

841
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: to shepherd through, but it's hard to be on the

842
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: phone and Valarious just has so much in there that

843
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: he wants to get out, and so we will do

844
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: our I'll do better next time, Johnnie. I promise I'm

845
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: gonna drink more element and be more hydrated. I think

846
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: more clearly. I promise I'll do better next time. But anyway,

847
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 1: don't let that dampen your enjoyment of Dr Vlarious Guys.

848
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: Dr Guys, welcome back to the show. Sir, thank you.

849
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm moving forward to this yeah, very much. So. Uh first,

850
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: I guess we should start by just saying, um, I

851
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: hope everything's going well. And co OVID, how are you

852
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: over there on on Vancouver Island. We're doing very well.

853
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: The island is virtually COVID free. I just think we

854
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: haven't had a case for a little while. But we're

855
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: an island and I am living off in the Boonies,

856
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: very far away from everybody else, so I'm very safe

857
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: and I'm treating this as a big vacation. What are

858
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: you doing on your vacation? I know you told me

859
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: the other day you were salmon fishing. What what I

860
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: wish I could be vacation with you my vacation. Well,

861
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: I'm now eighty two years old and I'm working on

862
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: a very big consuming evolution that's a heck of a

863
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: lot of funk, and I've been working at that for

864
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: almost two decades. It's called Condemned to Art and Insanity

865
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: our natural History. I don't know if we'll ever see

866
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: the light of day, because at two years of age,

867
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: it's rather difficult for so when that bloody thing gets published.

868
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm on that and working on all sorts

869
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: of problems pertaining to wolf predation and wolf survival. And

870
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: I've got several things in press and have also published

871
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: the things. I'd be rather busy, so that's good to

872
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: hear that you're busy. Tell me a little about the

873
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: human evolution studies and kind of the core of that.

874
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to talk about that, but I'm very

875
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: interested in the topic. Well, I published my first book

876
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: on human evolution forty three years ago, Condemned to Art,

877
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: and I retained an interest in human evolution because as

878
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: a program director for environmental science at the University of Calgary,

879
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: I was trying to find something that would unite in

880
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: my lectures, something useful for engineers, for architects, for urban urbanists,

881
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: for industrial designers, and so on to forth. And I

882
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: thought the best thing I could speak about is how

883
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: to maximize health environmentally. So I started looking into humans,

884
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: and I realized that evolutionary history has something to do

885
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: with our current health status, etcetera. And the natural result

886
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: was that I wrote a rather lengthy book which is

887
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: entitled Life Strategies, Human Evolution, Environmental Design Towards the Biological

888
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: Theory of Health in nineteen seventy eight. The interesting thing

889
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: about it was this was an interdisciplinary piece of work.

890
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: In other words, I went sideways into different disciplines in

891
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: order to link things that were significant. And there were

892
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: nineteen reviewers of that book, and eighteen of them wrote

893
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: that they could not review it because it was too broad.

894
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: It went so far beyond their own reading that they

895
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: could not judge the scholarly validity of it, although it

896
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: looked okay. So what happened was that the Springer Press,

897
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: which finally published it, um started calling other scientists that

898
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: do something about me and asked them about my reputation, etcetera.

899
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: And on that basis they published the book that tells

900
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: you something about the reviewing process. Yeah, we'ren't publishing here too,

901
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: So I absolutely no old publishing. But do you feel like, um,

902
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, as we move forward as is a conservation

903
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 1: community in the hunting community, do you feel like there's

904
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: enough out there on these subjects of our connection with

905
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: human evolution? You know, as as it's very much you have. Indeed,

906
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: because like it or not, we're an oxymoron. We're meat

907
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: eating vegetarians basically. In other ways, our evolutionary history unfolds

908
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: very much like that of other large vegetari mammals that

909
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: feed on vegetation primarily. In other ways, we're very similar

910
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: in our evolutionary pattern to deer, to elephants, to horses

911
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: and so forth, and not at all like primates. We

912
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: differed tremendously from primates, but at the same time, we

913
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 1: differ also tremendously from prime It's because we have had

914
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: a long, long history of eating meat, and that is deeply,

915
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: deeply ingrained in our physiology. So UM, as I said,

916
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: we are an oxymoron, we are a meat eating vegetarian.

917
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. I knew we

918
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: were axiomaronic. I just didn't didn't think of it in

919
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,959
Speaker 1: that way. So we we display axiomoronic characteristics in lots

920
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: of ways, I think. But do you as you look

921
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 1: at where we are? You know, I know you said, um, yeah,

922
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: you're in your eighties, you're over there on Vancouver Island,

923
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: but you're still working, You're still thinking about critically about

924
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, the conservation, hunting, fishing community. Um, where do

925
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: you think we are today? I mean you've seen, you know,

926
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: you've seen. We're in a very distressing situation at the

927
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: present time, and that is because a rather malignant environmental

928
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: movement has become politically dominant and is ruling the roost

929
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: at the present time. The really wonderful system of North

930
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: americ and wildlife conservation could not have existed, incidentally, except

931
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: by the virtue that you had exterminated wolves in the

932
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: Lord forty eight. We are now learning that if you

933
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: have uncontrolled wolf populations, you basically decimate while that to

934
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: such an extent that hunting is indeed a questionable activity

935
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, I want to That's one thing

936
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: that as we've we've gone through since last time we

937
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: talked we've We've talked to a lot of folks who

938
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: both I think agree and disagree with you on on

939
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: wolves specifically. Well, it's not agreeing or disagreeing. There are

940
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: certain facts. And let me allow a little bit to

941
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: open up on what I've been doing lately, because I've

942
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: got several things. For instance, I am right now writing

943
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: a paper with a Russian um ecologists who is probably

944
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: the greatest ecologists on Siberian matters, um and Lenny Baskin

945
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: in Moscow. Uh, what we are seeing is in Siberia

946
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: and in northern Canada and also in parts of Alaska,

947
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: very large areas they are almost depleted of wildlife that

948
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: there's simply biological deserts or and we've been trying to

949
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: find out what was the reason behind it. So it's

950
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: a lengthy piece of work in which my colleague and

951
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: I are in total agreement on and it turns out

952
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: to be that the primary cause is a combination of

953
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: wolves and grizzly beare predation. You see, wolves in under

954
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: normal circumstances were a rather rare animal because they were

955
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: controlled by large caps. Basically, we can still see some

956
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: of that today if you go to Manchuria, whatever. There

957
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: is our Siberian tigers that are virtually no wolves. And

958
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: the tong goose, which honored the tiger greatly in the past,

959
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: made sure there were lots of tigers around because that

960
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: means there were no wolves and there was wild that

961
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: available for them. But if you destroy the tiger, wolves

962
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: come back. And while that virtue disappears completely, now you

963
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: have an indifference. In an interesting situation, wherever you have

964
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: large cats like tigers like the girl forest lion, like

965
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: leopards like snow leopards and so on, you have no

966
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: wolves at all, or so very few in the North

967
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: that they're considered endangered. You see. So what happened in

968
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: price to see extinctions is that the big cats here

969
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 1: on this continent died out. We used to have lions here,

970
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: We used to have saber tooth cats, we had scimitar

971
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: cats here, and even before that, we had Siberian tigers,

972
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: believe it or not, in Alaska, and wolves are relatively

973
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: rare animals in the fossil record, and what it shows

974
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: is that once they the natural enemies of wolves are removed,

975
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: they are a very very destructive element, and together with

976
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: grizzly bears even more so because grizzly bears are superlative

977
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 1: at killing neonate, that is, baby baby elk, baby caribou,

978
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: baby moose, and so ons the forth. And some beautiful

979
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: studies have been made of this in Alaska where they

980
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: instrumented bears with with cameras and so they were able

981
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: to follow the visually what the bear was doing over

982
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: a month's time for thirty days. Well, it turns out

983
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: that their champion killed about fifty caribou caps at that

984
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: time point, and the one that killed least of all

985
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: in twenty seven days killed only seven, you see, And

986
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: that raises the question how many did that particular that

987
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: a champion grizzly bear killed before he was instrumented, and

988
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: how many did he did he kill after he was instrumented.

989
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: So what basically we are saying is that when you

990
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 1: have a combination of wolves and grizzly bears, you generate

991
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: a biological desert which stays that way, there's very very

992
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,720
Speaker 1: few ungular available, and the grizzly bears do well because

993
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: the vegetation is still available. Wolves do very poorly under

994
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: those circumstances. They eventually virtually vanished completely that the grizzly

995
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: bear is able to keep the populations of hunger it's

996
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: extremely low by being able to hunt extensively during the

997
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: time when they're giving birth and that combination. But by

998
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: the way, this is not exactly news. The Alaska Department

999
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: Fishing Game has come up with something very similar to that.

1000
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: Where do you when you think about wolves? And I

1001
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: know last time we talked, we talked about things like

1002
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: I'd added disease and predator pits and some of these

1003
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: other issues that you've brought up in some of your

1004
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: talks and some of your writings before and after UM

1005
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: and then we also I also visited Yellowster National Park

1006
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: and also a hunt in an area here in Montana

1007
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: where I got a trail camp picture of a wolf

1008
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 1: not three weeks ago. Have heard them, Yeah, I've heard them.

1009
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: It's it's it's that a pretty rare thing. I come

1010
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: to well, wolves are relatively hard to find, very hard

1011
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: to see, very hard to hunt. I've shot a few

1012
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: myself and I've dealt with them. And let's uh, of course,

1013
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: they are, in from one perspective, a magnificent animal, particularly

1014
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: the ones that I saw during my studies of mountain

1015
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: sheep in Northern Bridge, Columbia. They were giants, absolutely giants. Yeah,

1016
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: and that is very appealing. But when you look at

1017
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: the disruptions that we have caused in the global ecology. Yeah,

1018
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: what we have done, it's basically unleashed here a predator

1019
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: that is extremely efficient because it was so severely suppressed

1020
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: in earlier times by the large cats. Basically that's why

1021
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: this wolf is able to reproduce at a very high rate.

1022
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: This is why they're so very efficient in their hunting.

1023
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just simply what we have forgotten in

1024
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: our wolf man in and so far is the word ecology.

1025
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: What we have to do is to look at all

1026
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: the components of the ecosystem and manage them and not

1027
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: simply do as the environmentalists now do have total protection

1028
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: of wolves, or have total protection of grizzly bass. That

1029
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: is a disaster as well as we think about that

1030
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: in the Greater Yellows and ecosystem, I said, I went

1031
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: to Yellows National Park with a with a biologist protor

1032
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: biologists say, a month ago and we track the mountain lion.

1033
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: This mountain lion had killed seventeen um meal deer and

1034
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: elk about fifteen elk um to mostly neonates and then

1035
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: to meal there a couple of adults thrown in there.

1036
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 1: It's extremely efficient. Yeah. Yeah, And and as we're talking

1037
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: about this, I still find that this and this is

1038
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: why I wanted to talk to you again because I

1039
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: know that you know there are some divergent views here,

1040
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: but but I want to make sure that we kind

1041
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: of get to the center point of of where do

1042
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: we really think wolves fit in? Because the biologists that

1043
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: I talked to as we went through this, his appreciation

1044
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: for wolves on the landscape was was absolute. And so

1045
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: that's that's what I took away from it. I want

1046
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: to speak for him as well. There is whether there's

1047
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: something missing in this, and that is the following. Um.

1048
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: The number of elk before the wolves were released in

1049
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 1: Yellowstone in the northern Hood was about nine five hundreds,

1050
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: uh the the total number where it came down to

1051
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: around four to five thousand. But the most important thing

1052
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: is missing in this statement, namely, about three quarters of

1053
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: those elk moved out onto private land where they were

1054
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: protected from wolves. Now, the words Yellowstone is a very

1055
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: poor example because here predation cannot go to the extreme

1056
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: limit because the wolves because the elk are able to

1057
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: take rect huge on private land. Well, yellow Stone is

1058
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: the very interesting example, and I'm very glad you've introduced

1059
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: wolves there, believe me or not. And that may sound odd,

1060
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: but yes, indeed, because this is a time for us

1061
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: to learn and to learn thoroughly about what is going

1062
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: on and to take consequent steps. And I must say

1063
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: that the Alaska Fish and Game Department has gone to

1064
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: the full length of it. They basically recognized, Yes, yes,

1065
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 1: we have in Alaska last areas in which wolves and

1066
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: grizzly bears keep the moose and caribou at a very

1067
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: very low level. But that doesn't really matter because there's

1068
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: no people there where we require caribou and moose. Because

1069
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: people are there, we can't control both of those predators,

1070
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: and we do, and that's exactly what they're doing. And

1071
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: by the way, I better tell you something else, which

1072
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: is rather cute. I've been looking at human evolution, as

1073
00:57:54,560 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: you are aware of, and I noticed that UM particularly

1074
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: focus my attention on the colonization of Europe by modern

1075
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: people and the decline and extinction of neanderthal Man that

1076
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: happened thereafter. But there was something that became rather odd,

1077
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: namely that the geneticists were saying that with the entry

1078
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: of human beings into Europe, the wolves went into a

1079
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: genetic bottleneck, and that always means that they were very,

1080
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: very severely reduced in number. And what happened next was

1081
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: I found from from another paper that the size of

1082
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: the wolves after human beings modern people entered Europe became

1083
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: very large. They increased in the dimensioned by at least

1084
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: ten percent, which means they virtually doubled in weight. Wow.

1085
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: So if you reduce wolves and you have an increase

1086
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: in giant is um well that's what I experienced in

1087
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: the past. The at the same time, I'm the human

1088
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: population uh increased by about tenfolds two maybe fifteen fold

1089
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: or more compared to the Neanderthal population. So you have

1090
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: here an interesting set of circumstances. The human population becomes

1091
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: very very large, and all they're living on is primarily reindeer.

1092
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: The bones we find is franger bones. They also eat mammoth,

1093
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: They want to eat horses and bison occasionally, but most

1094
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: of their food comes from the reindeer. So what the

1095
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: logical logical explanation is that these modern human beings forty

1096
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: tho years ago came into the landscape occupied by Neanderthals.

1097
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: And the difference they made was they went after the

1098
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: wolves and controlled them. And the way they controlled them

1099
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: was of course the first we can guess about that,

1100
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: because the universal way to control wolves is to go

1101
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: after the wolves dens and destroy them. And but at

1102
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: the same time, these early modern people in Europe began

1103
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: had a cult of um associating with lions, and something

1104
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: rather interesting followed. I began to look around, what is

1105
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: the relationship of large cats with human beings? And I

1106
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: just told you the tung goos in Manchuria loved the

1107
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: tiger because they kept the wolves down. And in Africa

1108
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: we discovered that wherever there are hunting dogs and woo

1109
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: and lions, lions love to ambush hunting dogs, kill them,

1110
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: carry them around like trophies, but don't eat them. And

1111
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,959
Speaker 1: then there was a very interesting study which is documented

1112
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: and deposited in Washington with this Newsonian Institute. And this

1113
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: was a study there which is now impossible to do

1114
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: because the circumstances have changed. Where cool bushman in the

1115
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: Kalahari Desert lived around a war, the whole together with

1116
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: the pride of lions and humans and lions got along

1117
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: completely well. There was no predation on the lions, there

1118
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: was no killing by humans, there was a mutual respect relationship.

1119
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: When the anthropologists first arrived on the scene, the lions

1120
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: were roaring. Didn't like it, apparently, and they discovered the

1121
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: following morning that there were pug marks around every single

1122
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: sleeping bag of the anthropologists. They showed they filmed an

1123
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: interesting situation in which the kung had wounded and disabled

1124
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 1: a wilder least with poisoned arrows, and by the time

1125
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: they arrived at the wilderbeast, it was surrounded by lions. Well,

1126
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: the hunters went in with their spears, killed the wilde beast,

1127
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 1: talked to the lions, dismembered the wilderbeast, and walked away

1128
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: with the wildebeest, and the lions did nothing. So what

1129
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: we're having here is the first hint of how human

1130
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: beings made use of predators, which was court later undone

1131
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: when we already the gravitition, which is still modern people

1132
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: thirty thousand years ago. So in Europe they began taming

1133
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: wolves into dogs, and then subsequently to that we've had

1134
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: falconry where we've made use of a predator to our end,

1135
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: and we've also tamed cheetahs in order to make them

1136
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: superlative hunters of gazelles and antelope. The most astonishing example

1137
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: from came from Australia, and there are two books written

1138
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: about this, is where killer whales cooperated with fishermen in

1139
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: the hunting of belleen whales and even helped the fishermen

1140
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: tow the dead whale towards shore. And the reward for

1141
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: the killer whales was they got the lips and the

1142
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: tongue of the baleen whales. So we have here predators

1143
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: and humans cooperating. And I have aggested and it's been

1144
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: published in English already and it's right now in publication.

1145
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: And women that in the upper in the Upper Pliolithic,

1146
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: early Upper Polytics, these first people in Europe, the organzations

1147
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: made use of lions. Uh. Actually, it doesn't take much

1148
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: to find out how you could make use of lions.

1149
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: If lions ambush wolves, then human beings can help them

1150
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: with the ambush. All we have to do is imitate

1151
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: the howling of wolves. So you're saying lions, lions and

1152
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 1: humans work together. Yeah, exactly just like in the Colahari Desert,

1153
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: lions and humans were together and the humans said, the

1154
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,440
Speaker 1: lions are protecting us at night from predators, from panthers

1155
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: and from hyenas. I have never set up in this

1156
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: episode institution. Yeah, well, you know, we haven't looked at

1157
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: that angle. We've always thought of wolves and lions and

1158
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: predators in the negative sense, but we've also used them

1159
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: in a very positive sense. And the net result of

1160
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: that is that wonderful creation that we made out of

1161
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: the wolf the dog. Yeah, the two at all. Oh yeah,

1162
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: I've got a little one looking at me right now,

1163
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be and I'm so glad she's not

1164
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 1: the wolf. The irony, I love it. Um Well, you

1165
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: see this is ironic. But this is what happens when

1166
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: you do some homework. And this is what we need

1167
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: and what we cannot have in the but we do

1168
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: have in modern society. But anybody with or without any

1169
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: background is shouting off on social media, and how do

1170
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: you tell the difference. Yeah, well that's what that's what

1171
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: really what I'm trying to do. Um As I said,

1172
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm a layman. I I am count myself a conservationist.

1173
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: I now live in a place where I'm among these

1174
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: charismatic predators, and I appreciate them on both the levels

1175
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: we we kind of touched on earlier. And there, as

1176
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: you said, there is this complicated history where we obviously

1177
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, worked with them, and then you know at

1178
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 1: the time in the turn of the century, we were

1179
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: vilifying them everything from kind reifying them a hell of

1180
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: a lot earlier because wolves without control, yeah, were a

1181
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 1: scourge of the land. And some of the best modern

1182
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: scholarship and this comes from out of France, where they

1183
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: had in record, now, in detailed record, over ten thousand

1184
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: cases where wolves attacked human beings and uh soa is

1185
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: the name of the professor that's leading this work. In

1186
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: an interview, he said that if the documentation in France

1187
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: were not so badly damaged by wars, because so much

1188
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: of the documentation was in churches, for instance, many of

1189
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: them were burned down during the many, many wars that

1190
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 1: the Europeans had there, he was sure that they would

1191
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: have a documentation of over a hundred thousand, ten times

1192
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: what they have today. So the we have also excellent

1193
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: documentation right across the globe. Whatever wolves and human beings

1194
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: have come together. The only way that we could exist

1195
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: is by very very stringent control of wolves. And one

1196
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: of the most interesting things is Japan. The Japanese um

1197
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: farmers eulogized wolves because they were the only way they

1198
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: had to reduce the damage to their fields. You see. Uh,

1199
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: the Japanese disarmed their citizens, and so the farmers had

1200
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 1: no weapons and they could not kill and hunt wolves

1201
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: or part of me. They could not have pigs and

1202
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: deer which were ravaging their fields. So what they did

1203
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: is they attracted wolves, and they eulogized wolves to the

1204
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: point of making them a deity. So that was a

1205
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:47,439
Speaker 1: very very positive outlook of human beings towards wolves because

1206
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: they were helping them to maintaining their crops. And then

1207
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 1: then came brabies. Now rabies is a horrible disease, absolutely

1208
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:00,040
Speaker 1: incredible when it strikes. Yeah, and what did the Japanese do.

1209
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:04,919
Speaker 1: By nineteen o five, they had exterminated the wolf. You see,

1210
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: you don't have to exterminate anything. When I was in

1211
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: the Northern Bridge, Columbia, we had unbelievable wild of the populations,

1212
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: but we also had wolves, and we do not have wolves.

1213
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: When you allow so called nature to take its uh course,

1214
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: and you allow wolves and grizzly best to multiply because

1215
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: eventually virtually have only grizzly Best and then a very

1216
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: very very few wolves and a very very few ungulates

1217
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: in that system. And it is for all practically while

1218
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 1: that that's unusable by human beings. You know, bring it

1219
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: even back to to our relationship with predators, specifically wolves

1220
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: and every other apex predator that we've talked about carnivore

1221
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: that we've talked about. There there is you know, just

1222
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: by all the stories that you've told and all the

1223
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: readings that you've done, and the vast analogy of the

1224
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: natural history of this continent and in the world, that

1225
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 1: we are just left with this very complex, very interesting

1226
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: that's why we talk about it here, so much, very

1227
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: interesting relationship with these animals. You know, what do you

1228
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: think we should be doing in North America when it

1229
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: comes to but I think we should be doing is

1230
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: maximizing by diversity and maximizing productivity on the land so

1231
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: that people can take advantage of that. And there is

1232
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: absolutely no reason why we should not have wolves, okay,

1233
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: or mountain lines. But what you have to do is

1234
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: you have to have a system of controls that makes

1235
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: that ensures that everything is alive and well, and we

1236
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 1: had that in the past when I was the youngest zoologist. Well,

1237
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,839
Speaker 1: the first day I went deer hunting, I saw twenty

1238
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: six deer. I missed eight bucks because I was then

1239
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: not very skilled at running shots. I had the wrong

1240
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 1: image in that and I killed my five point buck.

1241
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: The next day. You've seen when I shot my first

1242
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: and last, very very large bull moose on December twenty

1243
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: three in Wealth Great Park, I was lying on top

1244
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: of a snow corners looking down the slope onto a

1245
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,600
Speaker 1: bar large burn and my friend was my away with

1246
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: the spotting scope. While looking towards me, he counted thirty

1247
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: six mouths on that slope. Well, this is almost unbelievable.

1248
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: Today we were seeing at that time thirty bull moose

1249
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: a day, and there were wolves in that countryside. We

1250
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 1: heard them and saw them too. We are perfectly capable

1251
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: of maintaining a great while they've been great abundance and

1252
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: diversity with all the large predators included the grizzly bear,

1253
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: the black bear, the cougar, the wolves. We can have

1254
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: them all, but we cannot have a single species so

1255
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 1: called protection is UM, which protects grizzly bears at all costs,

1256
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: which protects wolves at all costs. Then you get into

1257
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: the president of situation. That's when you get the wildlife deserts,

1258
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: and that is when Native people suffered because they don't

1259
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: have anything to hunt. I think it's a very important

1260
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 1: that you know, as we go through. We talked a

1261
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 1: little bit about Colorado. I touched on that. I mean,

1262
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: they are about to in this November vote on Initiative

1263
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 1: one oh seven, which will effectively reintroduced wolves into Colorado.

1264
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 1: It isn't a very very stupid thing to do. Should

1265
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 1: again to show you that, And so I want to

1266
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 1: kind of there's a coalition of of of these nonprofit

1267
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: protectionist groups as you as you say in Colorado that

1268
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:46,480
Speaker 1: they were led by UM, the Foreign Rocky Mountain Wolf Project.

1269
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 1: They spent nineteen They tiresly gathered support. You could see

1270
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 1: them on on sides of the road. There's pictures of them.

1271
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: They got two d THO signatures and they delivered that

1272
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 1: delivered that the Secretary of State. So these are people

1273
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: that don't be of costs of that introduction. It's the

1274
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: ranchers to do, and it's the huntless. We the Democrats

1275
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 1: or Republicans that also do You're gonna you cannot, you

1276
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: cannot maintain your North American system wilt conservation with the

1277
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: free for all for wolves and grizzly bears. You can't possible.

1278
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: What do you what do you say to those people?

1279
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: If if you're right, if you let's just say, you

1280
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 1: run into one of these guys on the street, it's

1281
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 1: hold the sign. With this protectionism for wolves, we need

1282
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 1: more wolves for this state to be wild. Put it

1283
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 1: this way. I have been writing a book on human evolution.

1284
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: I guess I told you the title Condemned to Art

1285
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: and Insanity. Yeah, I guess your I guess very Yeah.

1286
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: Well this is and these are belief systems. I mean,

1287
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: there are people believing in good faith that protecting the

1288
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: wolves will be in nirvana. Well this isn't r Vanna.

1289
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: It's an empty landscape, and it is so empty that

1290
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 1: even the small disappears. I know that because I've had

1291
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 1: here on Mancover Island and living it right now. All

1292
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 1: the deer are basically in the cities. Some of the

1293
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: elk have been able to maintain themselves more or less,

1294
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: but the elk here are giants because there are a

1295
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: few numbers compared to them out of food, and they're silent.

1296
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: They don't call, and they don't bugle, because if you bogle,

1297
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,799
Speaker 1: you get on top of yourself's wolves and cougars and bears.

1298
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: And I have eat bugled in black bears myself. At

1299
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: the same time, look at the same thing. What we've

1300
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 1: done now with the marine environment, total protection of whales, seals,

1301
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 1: sea lions and so on, has resulted in very large

1302
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: burgeoning populations of seals and sea lions. A kayaker just

1303
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago told me he was quite amazed.

1304
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 1: He came to a with his kayak to the entrance

1305
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 1: of a small creek into the ocean, and this was

1306
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 1: all surrounded by seals which were busily picking up all

1307
01:12:54,880 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: the little salmon that were coming downstream into the ocean. Gone,

1308
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: when I was a young students at Juis of Bridge, Columbia,

1309
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 1: we had still a control of seals, very large amounts

1310
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: of salmon and salmon populations everywhere of faltering. Well if

1311
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: you don't, if you have predators that feed steadily on salmon,

1312
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 1: what do you expect. In other ways, we can enter

1313
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: as a regulatory agency and we can ensure that everybody survives,

1314
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: including the prey. We have the means to do that. Yeah,

1315
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: sustainable use of a natural resource. When you speak out

1316
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: like this on wolves that people feel feel so passionate

1317
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 1: about them and protecting them and seeing more of them

1318
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: on landscapes, do you feel like people aren't listening? Do

1319
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: you feel like people I don't want to hear. No,

1320
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:48,600
Speaker 1: I know people are, people are listening. The bit of

1321
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: the problem is, of course, the your news services. Yeah,

1322
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 1: I guess they are afraid that there subcription rates will

1323
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: tumble the report something that is not exactly in the

1324
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: right now. Environmentalism is a very very popular notion and

1325
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 1: the great dream of some of the environmentalists is to

1326
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: see what they call wilderness around across everything, with human

1327
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: beings confined to very small spaces and so that nature

1328
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 1: could once again range supreme or much of the land.

1329
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: That's part of their dreams I see, and what it

1330
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 1: means is, uh, well to achieve that. I don't know

1331
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 1: how you could possibly have any number of people without

1332
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: the use of the land in the economic activities. I mean,

1333
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 1: it's a very very simplistic ideas. But these kind of

1334
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 1: ideas or the the Another thing is the promotion that

1335
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: the human beings are evil and that nature is good,

1336
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: and so if we constrain humans, we do something very

1337
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: good for nature. Well, the trouble, of course, is that

1338
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 1: you haven't had anything natural now for twelve thousand years

1339
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: on this continent when you look around the countryside. This

1340
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: is all secondarily consequences of human activity. Your native your

1341
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 1: native Colorado, your native North America vanished with the Little

1342
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: Ice Age top thousand years ago period. Well, we've seen

1343
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: this with with the COVID N teen pandemic. We've seen

1344
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 1: when you try to confine people to their homes there

1345
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: naturally want to go outside. They naturally want to enjoy

1346
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: place wonderful and and I'm all in fable, I also

1347
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 1: want to go outside. And in fact, I'm living on

1348
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: a very beautiful place away from the city. I'm surrounded

1349
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: by nature all the time. I have uh, I've had

1350
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:51,799
Speaker 1: wolves here under my doorstep and cougar's on my doorstep.

1351
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:53,800
Speaker 1: We don't have grizzly bears here, God thanks, but we

1352
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 1: do have black bears. And yes, I can enjoy all

1353
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: of it. But we have too many hugs at the

1354
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: present time, and so the number of rights of blacktail

1355
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 1: dealers way way way down everywhere except in cities where

1356
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: they've taken refuge from Hollywood. That's what do you find

1357
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:16,160
Speaker 1: some of the most biggest bucks on Vancouver Island right

1358
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 1: downtown and it's a yeah, what a beautiful what a

1359
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: beautiful island as well. But yeah, go back to go

1360
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 1: back to the pandemic issue, because it's kind of rayed

1361
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: some interesting points that that you're discussing here. We've seen

1362
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: national parks, we've seen state parks, we've seen wilderness areas,

1363
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: especially in Canada, but across the United States, and you know,

1364
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: there are reports out of Alberta and Quebec of you know,

1365
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 1: human feces and garbage and people camping in ditches and

1366
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: hundreds of cars and parking lots when when folks were

1367
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: locked down and they couldn't travel to other provinces or states,

1368
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 1: they simply retreated to to these places that we you know,

1369
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: these ecosystems, these fragile environments that we try to manage

1370
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 1: and keep His pristine as we can, and it's caused

1371
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: lots of problems and so there's an interesting discussion there

1372
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 1: is to as to your point earlier, Um, you know

1373
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 1: what's bad and what's good here, and what's what's what's

1374
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 1: real and you know what's fake in terms of what

1375
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 1: you're being told. Well, the COVID situation is going to pass.

1376
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,640
Speaker 1: It's not going to take. It's not We still have

1377
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: some while to deal with it, but it will pass

1378
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,560
Speaker 1: and we are going to get back to normality eventually.

1379
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: And we also have to face something very unhappy, and

1380
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 1: that is before the COVID christis struck, we were already

1381
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 1: aware that our national parks, particularly in your country, we're

1382
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 1: losing bio diversity, and that is that it loss about

1383
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: diversity means that plants and animals are going extinct, and

1384
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,759
Speaker 1: that you had a free for all in these parks

1385
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 1: for invasive species, of which according to the website of

1386
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,759
Speaker 1: the United States National Parks, there were over six thousand,

1387
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: five hundred species. So irrespect of the COVID, we have

1388
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 1: a very real problem about a philosophy of non intervention

1389
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: in nature. As long as we do non intervention, other

1390
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:25,520
Speaker 1: things intervened. And the only way to literally safeguard biodiversity

1391
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:30,760
Speaker 1: and maintained a live species which are going extinct is

1392
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 1: by human very intelligent interference. I have a friend in

1393
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 1: California who about thirty years ago bought acres of land

1394
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 1: on which she counted sixties species of plants. Then he

1395
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: began to change the landscape in the sense that he

1396
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: was trying to get back by diversity and bring to

1397
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: light and to fruition seed which were lying dormant in

1398
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 1: the soil. And after thirty years he has two hundred

1399
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,640
Speaker 1: and thirty five native species of plants and hundred and

1400
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 1: thirty five non native species of plants. That's what human

1401
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:17,759
Speaker 1: intelligent human intervention means, whereas non intervention means the simply

1402
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: the decline and extinction of many of our sensitive species,

1403
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 1: reduction by diversity and take over by invasive species. That's

1404
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:32,679
Speaker 1: what we have faced. Our idea of letting hands often,

1405
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 1: letting nature do its thing is a catastrophic failure. Not entirely,

1406
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:41,920
Speaker 1: there are really times when you need to do it,

1407
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:47,240
Speaker 1: but as a unifying philosophy of dealing with nature, it

1408
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 1: simply means that we allow other species, undesirable species many regards,

1409
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 1: take over the landscape. In order to maintain beauty and

1410
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 1: by the city, we have to come in and manage

1411
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 1: with fire, with an axe, with a rifle and shotgun

1412
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: and net and the times poisons. We have to do

1413
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,360
Speaker 1: that and then we can maintain what is well. The

1414
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: French said it quite correctly, said, if you want to

1415
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 1: have a beautiful park, you need a very sharp axe

1416
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 1: and the heart of stone. Yeah, then you're gonna have

1417
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: a beautiful park. Yeah. Well, if if folks listening I

1418
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,639
Speaker 1: didn't just hear that, rewind and listen to it again,

1419
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 1: because that's about it is, wonderfully stated. I've heard about

1420
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:36,639
Speaker 1: how we can as humans cohabitate and balance the world

1421
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:38,720
Speaker 1: in which we live, because that's well, we have to

1422
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 1: do it, and we have to do it intelligently, and

1423
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: we can do it. That's the whole point. Yes, protection

1424
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:47,960
Speaker 1: ism that's brought back whales and a lot of marine life.

1425
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:51,240
Speaker 1: And now we have to judge how much protection is

1426
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 1: required to generate and what protection is required and what

1427
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 1: actions are required to enhance different species so that we

1428
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 1: do have high bio diversity. We can do it. We

1429
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:05,600
Speaker 1: have the means to do it, and when we have

1430
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 1: a question, we can always have an experimental setting and explore.

1431
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 1: What we cannot do is to have faith that nature

1432
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 1: is going to somehow maintained by a diversity and duty,

1433
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: which doesn't well, I want to I think all of

1434
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:26,120
Speaker 1: this connects to your book with Shane Mahoney, the North

1435
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 1: American Model of Wildlife Conservation. And I'll just tell you.

1436
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 1: I know we talked about this a bit last time

1437
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: you were in the studio, but the North American model

1438
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 1: of conservation is something that i've i've we speak about

1439
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: often on this show that i've I've really think you should. Yeah,

1440
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, it is, UM And you know, and I

1441
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 1: know your book talks about the strength and its weaknesses

1442
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 1: and in in in great way and we wanted to

1443
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 1: UM for a long time on the show, have a

1444
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 1: book club and talk about some of these really important issues.

1445
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:01,160
Speaker 1: And the Northern a model is something that I think

1446
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people understand, but a lot of people misunderstand,

1447
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 1: and even more people have no idea about how it

1448
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: came to be or what it is or what it's

1449
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: meant to do. UM. And I think this book that

1450
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,719
Speaker 1: you've put together with with Shane, if everyone I asked

1451
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: everyone to read it about two months ago. I said,

1452
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:21,559
Speaker 1: get this book and read it and then we're going

1453
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 1: to talk to dr guys about it. So if you

1454
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 1: if you'll allow us. Well, I would like to just

1455
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 1: go through it a little bit and discuss some of

1456
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:32,679
Speaker 1: what's in there, and then you know, discuss what well.

1457
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit. Yes, I'm the core I editor

1458
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:38,759
Speaker 1: of it and the author of one of the chapters

1459
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,599
Speaker 1: of it, and I haven't looked at it for some

1460
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: time because I've been so very very busy with other matters,

1461
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: particularly on the human front. Because as I said, I'm

1462
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:51,280
Speaker 1: editing now my book condemned to author insanity. I've picked

1463
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: twenty years on it. So that's I've been busy, and

1464
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,720
Speaker 1: I'm busy other things. So, um, I may be u

1465
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 1: um faulted from remembering too well, let's try it. Let's

1466
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,160
Speaker 1: let's give it a try. I think I think most

1467
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: of the things in here are elementary to all your work.

1468
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,759
Speaker 1: So I imagine if you don't remember the exact sens,

1469
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 1: you'll you'll understand some of the questions and things that. Okay,

1470
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:16,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to go through. Let's let's give it a

1471
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 1: shot here. Um, the book, you know, in talking about

1472
01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: the model, the book does a lot of things, but

1473
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:27,600
Speaker 1: I think in general, it looks at the model's strength weaknesses,

1474
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 1: and it considers, you know, it's relevancy and efficacy and

1475
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 1: all the things that it touches because it does touch history, politics, culture,

1476
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:42,559
Speaker 1: societies and so yeah, because before we have specific questions here,

1477
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 1: when you think about the model today, what do you

1478
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 1: think of? Well, the model is basically a model that

1479
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:57,679
Speaker 1: assumes that the greater population of the nation has access

1480
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 1: to wildlife and we'll use this wildlife in the consumptive fashion.

1481
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 1: In other way, it's not only do we enjoy it

1482
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: a life, we also enjoy it on our dinner table.

1483
01:24:08,280 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: That is the basis of it. It makes the assumption

1484
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 1: that going out and raising wildlife for human consumption is

1485
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: a good thing, and that's what it was in the past.

1486
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 1: As long as that philosophy is relevant, as long as

1487
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 1: that model will survive. But it cannot survive protectionism and

1488
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: it fails. Yes, well, when we when you when we

1489
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: start with this book, we start about you know this,

1490
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 1: This book goes all over time, um, but it talks

1491
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:43,759
Speaker 1: about this revolutionary approach that in the late nineteenth century

1492
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 1: and early twentieth century Canada, United States came together and

1493
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:53,439
Speaker 1: rather than treating wildlife for the purview of the elites,

1494
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,080
Speaker 1: is to be used for the benefit of the pleasure.

1495
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 1: We're we're now switching this dichotomy and we're saying it's

1496
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 1: we're going use this for the people. That's correct. And

1497
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:05,559
Speaker 1: that is the remarkable thing about the North American model.

1498
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: That's why it is so outstanding a model, you know,

1499
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 1: because what it shows that the common ownership of wildlife

1500
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: can be of an enormous benefit to a nation, whereas

1501
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 1: previously it was assumed that if you had a comments

1502
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,760
Speaker 1: that comments would deteriorate because everybody had access to it

1503
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: and destroyed it in part. And there is a large,

1504
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:32,759
Speaker 1: very famous, not large for very famous paper, the Tragedy

1505
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 1: of the Comments, which was written about it, remember in

1506
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: his moment the author. But the proof of the North

1507
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 1: American model is that you can have ownership of land

1508
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 1: and wild land in common, and it can be constructive

1509
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: and it can be a thing of beauty and productivity

1510
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 1: and of generating great wealth at the same time. It's

1511
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:56,120
Speaker 1: a real blessing there really is. I mean, it shows

1512
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 1: it's such a value system as much as is a

1513
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 1: system of conservation and those things that you explained or intertwined, well,

1514
01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:04,799
Speaker 1: just imagine the number of people that are employed because

1515
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: of that model, and just think of the tremendous innovations

1516
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:12,679
Speaker 1: that you have generated in archery, for instance. Yeah. Yeah,

1517
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable how things have changed, and that has given

1518
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 1: livelihoods to quite a few people. The same thing with

1519
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 1: the firearms or the clothing or the other equipment that

1520
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 1: has to to be used. It is a tremendous boost

1521
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 1: to the economy to have wildlife. If the violet that

1522
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,840
Speaker 1: is being used by the public at large, but it

1523
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 1: has to be used, not just simply simply you look

1524
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: at it's something you use. Yeah, I mean, I think

1525
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,240
Speaker 1: as you as we You know that agreement, the agreement

1526
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 1: you talked about in the beginning, and you know it's

1527
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,439
Speaker 1: talked about in the book quite a lot, the agreement

1528
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 1: that we're we're going forward this understanding that we are

1529
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:57,920
Speaker 1: going to both conserve and use um these resources at

1530
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the same time. And that's where the balance comes in.

1531
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 1: Um it's core to this and that I think that

1532
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,880
Speaker 1: present and that ain't the North American model. It kind

1533
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 1: of gives us a vision and for me, a hopeful

1534
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,120
Speaker 1: vision of the kind of the challenges of the future

1535
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:15,639
Speaker 1: for conservation. And the book helps with that too. Yes,

1536
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 1: and I'm you see I also have to go back

1537
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 1: a little bit to a time when the use of

1538
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:25,680
Speaker 1: weapons was looked at in a different way than this today.

1539
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 1: And you had it in the You had it in

1540
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 1: your rural areas where the kids took the twenty two

1541
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 1: to school and they did their hunting on the way

1542
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 1: back around the way to school, and they brought things

1543
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 1: to on the for the family table. I did that

1544
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager in Canada. Yeah, and my

1545
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:51,559
Speaker 1: grandmother and I had a wonderful relationship precisely because I

1546
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,720
Speaker 1: was able to bring in game and fish and it

1547
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 1: was so greatly treasured and valued by the family. I'm

1548
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 1: thinking right now of some of our native people in

1549
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,560
Speaker 1: Northern Canada that are faced without wildlife. What do the

1550
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:08,519
Speaker 1: kids do if you cannot go out and get yourself

1551
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,680
Speaker 1: a rabbit or some ducks and geese and so once

1552
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 1: of forth, if you find an empty landscape, what do

1553
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 1: you do? Do you smell gasoline? Or do you go

1554
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,760
Speaker 1: and commit suicide? That's exactly what the kids were doing.

1555
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 1: You see. Wow, So there is a greater good to

1556
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:27,599
Speaker 1: have wild left around. We are hunters, We are by nature,

1557
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: as I stated beginning, an oxymoron, a meat eating vegetarian,

1558
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: but we are that. And as long as we maintained

1559
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:45,880
Speaker 1: that in a reasonable fashion, you have a world of

1560
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 1: great beauty and diversity. And we can have that all,

1561
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: we can enjoy it, but we cannot have most sort

1562
01:28:54,080 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 1: of single idea um preservationists attempt dealing with nature that

1563
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 1: leads to disaster. And in the book to you, as

1564
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 1: we've as we've discussed here that it almost seems like

1565
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 1: derivative of any discussion like this, that we're going to

1566
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:15,280
Speaker 1: delve into the past UM. And in the second chapter

1567
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: of this book, he starts to ask questions like why

1568
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:22,679
Speaker 1: look at a history of our humanity in these species?

1569
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 1: Why look at um the place to see? Why look

1570
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:31,679
Speaker 1: at Neanderthals? Why look at um the first predation of humans?

1571
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 1: And talk about that these ideas of why we asked

1572
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,080
Speaker 1: that question, and what we can learn from our history UM,

1573
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:42,479
Speaker 1: and how that the first is a very cautionally lesson,

1574
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 1: and that is that human beings and nature have been

1575
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:52,680
Speaker 1: um in a very unhappy coexistence for about two and

1576
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 1: a half billion years. The very very first humans that

1577
01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 1: came about, we're already hunters, and I can descry to

1578
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:02,599
Speaker 1: you what what they were. But the point was that

1579
01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 1: the moment they showed up, the biodiversity of the continent

1580
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:10,400
Speaker 1: of Africa went downhill and continue to go downhill. And

1581
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: it went downhill because eventually we exterminated the megafauna as well,

1582
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 1: and we now are in a situation where we are

1583
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 1: desperately trying to understand how human populations can possibly survive.

1584
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 1: So history is something that teaches us to be very

1585
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 1: very cautious about what we do with nature. We can't.

1586
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 1: We know that we can make nature bloom, and we

1587
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:38,360
Speaker 1: have to do that, but much of the time we've

1588
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 1: been a negative force. And this is where the environment

1589
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 1: that is sitting quite correct about it. So that and

1590
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:47,680
Speaker 1: then comes to the point is how did we go

1591
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: and interact with nature? And how was it possible that

1592
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:55,439
Speaker 1: human beings were able to flourish in the first place,

1593
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 1: Because human beings are the only primate that can stay

1594
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 1: at night on the ground surrounded by large predators and

1595
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 1: does not have to climb a tree at night. All

1596
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: other primates have to climb trees. We're the only ones

1597
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 1: who don't. So here you're right away are into an

1598
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:18,720
Speaker 1: interesting question what the dickens did we do? Because previously

1599
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:23,200
Speaker 1: to that, we were a prey of many predators, and

1600
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: when predators get a taste of human meat today, they

1601
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:33,000
Speaker 1: absolutely continue going after it. Human beings, apparently are the

1602
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 1: cannibals are stating that there is no meat like human meat.

1603
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 1: It's the very best there is, and the predaceous lions

1604
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:41,760
Speaker 1: and tigers and leopards in the past have verified that

1605
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 1: as well. So there's a big, big question, which is

1606
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 1: intellectual and interesting question, what did we do to survive

1607
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 1: at night surrounded by large predators without weapons of the

1608
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: kind that we have today. So this is one of

1609
01:31:56,840 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 1: the first things that I have to crack, and you

1610
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:00,560
Speaker 1: can read in my book how we did it. We

1611
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:02,639
Speaker 1: get to the point as we moved to history where

1612
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 1: we start to after the American you know, the police

1613
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 1: in a wild American frontier. The book talks a lot

1614
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 1: about what factors led to kind of the emergence of

1615
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,560
Speaker 1: the I don't know if you would call the enlightenment

1616
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,679
Speaker 1: of the conservation rise at the turn of the century,

1617
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, you see, you've put a finger

1618
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,679
Speaker 1: on the right thing. Our conservations have to be very

1619
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,960
Speaker 1: keenly aware of what happened after Columbus came to North

1620
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 1: America and because what happened was something honorable happened there

1621
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:40,000
Speaker 1: somewhere between fifty six and twenty million people were destroyed

1622
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:46,120
Speaker 1: by European diseases. Before that destruction, we have some idea

1623
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 1: what wildlife was like in North America through the eyes

1624
01:32:50,360 --> 01:32:53,880
Speaker 1: of the early Spanish explorers, and they tell us there

1625
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:57,479
Speaker 1: wasn't a wildlife. There was an It was a continent

1626
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 1: overpopulated by human beings. It as a continent continuously manipulated

1627
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: by by by fires set by human beings very effectively.

1628
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:10,719
Speaker 1: So uh, the Eastern hardwood forest was actually a man

1629
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 1: made nut garden. That's how powerful influence we exerted. Then

1630
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 1: came this uh, terrible mortality of native people, which already

1631
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: began with the Desato expedition in fifteen thirty nine. And

1632
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: the natives realized while the expedition was in progress that

1633
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:35,719
Speaker 1: they were in danger, just getting even close to white

1634
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 1: and they fled, but they didn't save them. In the

1635
01:33:39,479 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: last end, our diseases followed them through. So between fifty

1636
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:46,759
Speaker 1: millions and a hundred fifty six million minimal and hundred

1637
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:50,240
Speaker 1: twenty million people died, and you all of a sudden

1638
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: had a continent that was virtually free of people, and

1639
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 1: wildlife took over in the burgeoning fashion in the six

1640
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: ndred and that's what we saw, That's what Daniel Boone

1641
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 1: saw when he comes down, an abundance of wildlife, passenger

1642
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:11,640
Speaker 1: pigeons darkening the sky. You see cads and Devaka or

1643
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 1: de Soto never saw a single passenger pigeon. Passenger pigeons

1644
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:22,519
Speaker 1: came into this massive existence once the nut gardens and

1645
01:34:22,680 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: the fruit trees were no longer being harvested. The human beings,

1646
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 1: after all, twenty millions were dead. So the wildlife then

1647
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: took over. And that is what environmentalists are seeing and

1648
01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:40,960
Speaker 1: not recognizing that this is an artifact. This is at

1649
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 1: the artifact of European exploitation of the continent in itself.

1650
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:50,160
Speaker 1: So these burgeoning number of buffaloes, well, there is some

1651
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: indication that in the center of the continent buffaloes were

1652
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:59,080
Speaker 1: um fairly abundant and were able to withstand the hunting

1653
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:02,760
Speaker 1: pressure that was put on them. But so there's a

1654
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 1: lot more history to be uncovered, I can assure you that.

1655
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: But the modern situation is the consequence of very very

1656
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 1: severe happenings after Columbus Lands in North America and the

1657
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:22,600
Speaker 1: idea that North America was a beautiful, untouched wilderness occupied

1658
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:27,040
Speaker 1: by a few native people is simply wrong. It didn't exist. Well,

1659
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:29,200
Speaker 1: then you get to it, so you know, would it

1660
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: be correct in your mind? And saying that hundreds of

1661
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:36,000
Speaker 1: years of this understanding of our true impact on this

1662
01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:40,080
Speaker 1: kind it led to this, this enlightenment in in the

1663
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 1: early nine hundreds and then leaning up into well the enlightenment.

1664
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: Enlightenment came when people of wealth began to notice how

1665
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:53,800
Speaker 1: the wildlife was vanishing, when they started noticing that there

1666
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: were more more feathers in the hats of ladies on

1667
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: Wall Street then there were in down to the Everglades. Uh.

1668
01:36:04,360 --> 01:36:08,160
Speaker 1: The destruction of the American buffalo was of course also

1669
01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 1: something that became very very uh noticeable, and it became

1670
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:16,920
Speaker 1: a factor in information of such organizations as the Boone

1671
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:20,200
Speaker 1: conquer the croct Club, and I think it was six

1672
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 1: and you had your great President Teddy Roosevelt involved. Uh.

1673
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:30,200
Speaker 1: What happened was the your North American system of wilder

1674
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 1: of conservation arose in opposition to this enormous destruction of

1675
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 1: while that that took place in the nineteenth century. In

1676
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:40,680
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, parton me. Yeah. I mean, then you

1677
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 1: talk about some of the most in the book in

1678
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 1: chapter three you talk a lot about some of the

1679
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: most important pieces of legislation, some of the national parks

1680
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:54,439
Speaker 1: and national forests and in in you know that really

1681
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:57,080
Speaker 1: from nineteen o one all the way up till nineteen

1682
01:36:57,200 --> 01:37:01,680
Speaker 1: thirty five one, President frank and by the way, make

1683
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:05,040
Speaker 1: sure that this was a co oppositive effort in North

1684
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:09,240
Speaker 1: America between Canada and the United States. And the most

1685
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:12,759
Speaker 1: amazing thing is that Canada, which was a loyal, loyal

1686
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:16,720
Speaker 1: colony of Great prison did not accept the way of

1687
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:20,639
Speaker 1: wild that was managed in Great Britain, but joined hands

1688
01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:26,040
Speaker 1: with fellow Americans in the United States to generate jointly

1689
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 1: a continental system of wilder conservation. That's what we have.

1690
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: It's not a U S system, it's not a Canadian

1691
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 1: It's a joint international system that covers North America. That's

1692
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 1: the glory of it. Yeah. It shows how human beings

1693
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: and when they want to can come together to create

1694
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 1: something useful, something beautiful, something of great importance. We can

1695
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:48,960
Speaker 1: do it. And when you first you know, I think

1696
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 1: it's an important time is how when you first sat

1697
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:53,400
Speaker 1: down to try to articulate what you knew to be

1698
01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 1: this model. I was very interested in game branching and

1699
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 1: I held the conference in ninety one in which I

1700
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 1: invited game branches from all across the world to attend,

1701
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: and they attended. We had a wonderful get together, and

1702
01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: after I was preparing the treaties, looking at all the

1703
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:14,679
Speaker 1: papers and all the consequences, suddenly dawned on the Oh

1704
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 1: my god, this is not the way to proceed. And

1705
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:23,840
Speaker 1: when game farming became very popular with my colleagues in

1706
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:28,480
Speaker 1: the Canadian Wildlife Service, I was at one point castigating

1707
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,720
Speaker 1: them for their support for that, and I stated that

1708
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:36,400
Speaker 1: if you continue this path of promoting game farming, you're

1709
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:39,639
Speaker 1: going to destroy your system of wildlfe conservation. And two

1710
01:38:39,760 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 1: senior um members of the Canadian Wilderve Service, men that

1711
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 1: have worked all their life with wildlife and we're about retired,

1712
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: shot back at me and said what system. We do

1713
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,880
Speaker 1: not have a system of wild of conservation. And I said,

1714
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,040
Speaker 1: you bloody well do have a system world of conservation,

1715
01:38:57,040 --> 01:38:59,720
Speaker 1: and I'll write it down to you, and I did

1716
01:39:01,080 --> 01:39:05,559
Speaker 1: you see. I am by background European, and I was

1717
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:10,680
Speaker 1: raised in the lore of the German hunting system. So

1718
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 1: I knew very very well what the European system did

1719
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:16,880
Speaker 1: and did not do, and that is what I based

1720
01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 1: my my construct of the North American model on. If

1721
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:27,400
Speaker 1: you take the seven pillars of the North American system

1722
01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:31,360
Speaker 1: and reversed them hundred eighty degrees, you have the central

1723
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:34,760
Speaker 1: European system of wildlerf management. You see, I did not

1724
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:39,719
Speaker 1: write a history of the North American system. I stated

1725
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:43,719
Speaker 1: this is what it is, and it was. I've published

1726
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:48,560
Speaker 1: in total twenty three papers and book chapters on it eventually,

1727
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: and it grew somewhat in model UM paper dealing with

1728
01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 1: North American system is the one that has ultimately used

1729
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:03,000
Speaker 1: as the definitive system for it. If it hadn't been

1730
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:05,360
Speaker 1: for Shane Mahoney and Joan Organ and others, it would

1731
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:09,320
Speaker 1: not have survived because the wild that Wild NFE society

1732
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 1: was very much opposed to what I had written, and

1733
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:17,400
Speaker 1: I was blackmailed from conferences and oh some interesting things happened.

1734
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:20,800
Speaker 1: I was vilified, and eventually, eventually saying their minds took

1735
01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:23,519
Speaker 1: over and they realized that you had really quite an

1736
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:27,559
Speaker 1: astonishing the unique system while the conservation and now we're

1737
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:30,400
Speaker 1: celebrating its God, thanks. But there was an initial there

1738
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 1: was initial opposition to it. I can assure you that. Yeah,

1739
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:35,479
Speaker 1: And I remember I remember talking about that last time,

1740
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 1: and I and I remember understanding, especially from Shane in

1741
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:43,000
Speaker 1: our conversation as well, that this needed to be championed.

1742
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:47,639
Speaker 1: Oh it did. And he and nobody can articulately better

1743
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:51,639
Speaker 1: than Shane Mahoney. He's a maul speaker and he's also

1744
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 1: the poets pretty speaking. I admire very much his competence.

1745
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 1: He's a great man. Yeah, And it's for me as

1746
01:40:57,560 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 1: I read this, As I read this book, I think

1747
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 1: about an American model. It's strange to me that it

1748
01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: would need to be championed. It's something we had already

1749
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 1: kind of. It is something that you should be very

1750
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:11,680
Speaker 1: proud of as North Americans. This is a unique system

1751
01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:15,719
Speaker 1: and it works, that's the point. And it is produced

1752
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:18,640
Speaker 1: wildlife in abundance. And what it has done is you

1753
01:41:18,680 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: can take a landscape and make it beautiful and productive

1754
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:25,800
Speaker 1: that system and the public participates in it. It's not

1755
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:30,000
Speaker 1: a system that is based on the elite as such. No,

1756
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:33,040
Speaker 1: it's a system that is open to the public as

1757
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:36,360
Speaker 1: a whole. Anybody can participate and they do. Yeah. Well,

1758
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:41,120
Speaker 1: there's a couple of key questions that Rosie Cooney writes

1759
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:43,080
Speaker 1: on at the end of the book. I wanted to

1760
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:45,960
Speaker 1: discuss with you. One of the first questions is really simple,

1761
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:49,120
Speaker 1: although it's discussed in detail and the book is really simple.

1762
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 1: Who owns wildlife? And I think that's a key to

1763
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: to where we are the model. Well, of course it

1764
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:56,800
Speaker 1: is the key to it. And violnife is in the

1765
01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 1: public domain. You and I, as citizens of Canada and

1766
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:03,479
Speaker 1: the United States, owned the wildlife of Canada and the

1767
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 1: United States. And that is something that you don't find

1768
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 1: in Europe because wildlife is tied to the ownership of land. Yeah,

1769
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: and this is is that how common in your experience

1770
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 1: is that globally? I know, very very common, very common.

1771
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:21,160
Speaker 1: That is that was that was their root system of concer.

1772
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: People that had huge landholdings were able to conserve wildlife,

1773
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:30,040
Speaker 1: and they did by the way, and people destroyed wildlife notoriously.

1774
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 1: So one of the lessons from history is when wildlife

1775
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:36,960
Speaker 1: is in the ownership of the elite and there is

1776
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:41,120
Speaker 1: a revolution, the first thing that gets destroyed is wildlife.

1777
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:47,439
Speaker 1: That happened the French Revolution, that happened in eighty eight

1778
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:52,120
Speaker 1: in with the German Revolution. That happened again in nineteen

1779
01:42:52,240 --> 01:42:57,400
Speaker 1: forty seven in India when India managed to get free

1780
01:42:57,400 --> 01:43:01,719
Speaker 1: from a great person and became independent of that people

1781
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:04,719
Speaker 1: turned on violent which is completely destroyed well in the book,

1782
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:08,720
Speaker 1: Dr Cooney writes about it. You know, wildlife is a

1783
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 1: fugitive resource, meaning animals don't care if you if you

1784
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,840
Speaker 1: if you make arbitrary borders, or if you own this

1785
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 1: or that, animals just do not care, and they don't care.

1786
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, that has been problematic in some ways,

1787
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:25,800
Speaker 1: but in our model it's been illustrative of lots of points.

1788
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:27,639
Speaker 1: But then you you look at a place like South

1789
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:33,120
Speaker 1: Africa where where you have these animals are put in

1790
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 1: a fence, and then that property owner owns that this

1791
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: happens in as long as the situation exists, as it

1792
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:49,639
Speaker 1: does today. Yet yet you have much of the land

1793
01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:52,639
Speaker 1: in South Africa is still under the control of flights,

1794
01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:57,200
Speaker 1: and they're doing a perfectly good job of wind of conservation,

1795
01:43:57,240 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 1: factibility of job, wile of conservation. When I have discussed

1796
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:03,679
Speaker 1: it with them, I've asked, I've turned around and said,

1797
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:10,000
Speaker 1: what will happen to wildlife when every citizen of South

1798
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:13,720
Speaker 1: Africa is able to go into a shop and buy

1799
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:16,519
Speaker 1: himself at twelve gate shotgun in the third ye old

1800
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:22,120
Speaker 1: six rifle and a forty five color pistol. What will

1801
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,880
Speaker 1: happen to was that then, you see in the United

1802
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 1: States you can do that. We can go into a

1803
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 1: shop and you can arm yourself, no problem. That's part

1804
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 1: of your constitution and just part of the the expectation you

1805
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: have a In fact, wildlife had at one time in

1806
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, I counted it, wildlife was outnumbered by

1807
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:46,040
Speaker 1: guns in private ownership about eight to nine to one.

1808
01:44:46,760 --> 01:44:51,040
Speaker 1: He with this enormous armament in North America, wildlife was thriving.

1809
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 1: And I asked my asked my colleagues. Then in what

1810
01:44:54,760 --> 01:44:57,679
Speaker 1: will happen? But there was no discussion at that point

1811
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: because the frightening possibility was that there would be a

1812
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:08,719
Speaker 1: total takeover of a private land in South Africa and

1813
01:45:08,840 --> 01:45:11,840
Speaker 1: there would be a total decimation of wildlife as a consequence.

1814
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:16,639
Speaker 1: So today's situation in the Maybia, today's situation in Africa

1815
01:45:16,840 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 1: is a fragile one. Three cheers that it's holding out

1816
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 1: for the time being, but for the future, I'm not

1817
01:45:23,760 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 1: optimistic in North America. I am optimistic, and I've been

1818
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:30,000
Speaker 1: known to write in one paper that the very last

1819
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:33,840
Speaker 1: elephant on the earth will survive on the King Ranch

1820
01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:38,639
Speaker 1: in Texas. What I think, You're right, and it's such

1821
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:43,080
Speaker 1: we have such a strange, such a strange dichotomy there.

1822
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:45,320
Speaker 1: I lived in Texas and I often when I when

1823
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:46,800
Speaker 1: I read that part of this book, and this is

1824
01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:49,320
Speaker 1: in the last chapter I'm going through, and I'm thinking,

1825
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 1: many parts of Texas don't abide by this North American

1826
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:55,839
Speaker 1: model that we've so well, you know, that we've developed.

1827
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,120
Speaker 1: They do in part, and they in part don't, but

1828
01:45:59,200 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 1: in part they do because Texas Wildlife Texas is still

1829
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:07,759
Speaker 1: being managed by the state with authority to do certain things.

1830
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:12,559
Speaker 1: And I'm quite a fan of some of the things

1831
01:46:12,560 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 1: that I've seen on Texas ranches that I'm doing, some

1832
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:17,920
Speaker 1: very very good management is taking place on that very

1833
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: good management. The beauty of the United States is and

1834
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:27,559
Speaker 1: that you have a diversity of ownerships, so that while

1835
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 1: we have wildlife entirely in the public domain, also wildlife

1836
01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:37,200
Speaker 1: which is coexisting with private ownership and is doing extremely well.

1837
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:40,280
Speaker 1: Do you do you feel like this is this is

1838
01:46:40,280 --> 01:46:42,839
Speaker 1: what you mentioned earlier that I thought was so profound

1839
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:46,160
Speaker 1: to me that that intelligent intervention just taking shape in

1840
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 1: different ways, and even though it may every once in

1841
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 1: a while, what you just said, intelligent intervention, that's what

1842
01:46:55,439 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 1: it's all about. We can have intelligent intervention and then

1843
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:02,160
Speaker 1: we have wildlife and predators, and we have biodiversity, and

1844
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:05,960
Speaker 1: we have beauty. We have the whole shamak, but it

1845
01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:10,679
Speaker 1: needs intelligent intervention. Is there some intelligent intervention that kind

1846
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:15,200
Speaker 1: of goes against the model? No, don't. The model is

1847
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:19,959
Speaker 1: in fact an interventionist model completely and entirely. It assumes

1848
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:24,120
Speaker 1: that our wildlife is publicly owned, that we have agencies

1849
01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:30,520
Speaker 1: that are managing in the public interest, that these agencies

1850
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:36,680
Speaker 1: are guided by science and history and scholarship and so on,

1851
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:41,760
Speaker 1: and that wildlife is so important that we consider it

1852
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:47,320
Speaker 1: as a public resource that we must maintain. When do

1853
01:47:47,360 --> 01:47:50,519
Speaker 1: you have a total protectionist policy, nobody gives damn about it.

1854
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:53,960
Speaker 1: And while let's deterior rates. That's also a lesson from

1855
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:57,759
Speaker 1: the national parks. As as we move on, there's another

1856
01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:01,040
Speaker 1: really important question here that I think that everybody listened

1857
01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:03,840
Speaker 1: to this podcast, I know UM wants to know more

1858
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:06,880
Speaker 1: about and thinks about this quite often. What is what

1859
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,439
Speaker 1: exactly in your mind is the role of hunting, and

1860
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:14,080
Speaker 1: you know if you can encapsulate it in the model, well,

1861
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:17,200
Speaker 1: the role of hunting is vital because on one hand,

1862
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:20,840
Speaker 1: the role of hunting makes sure that there is a

1863
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:24,680
Speaker 1: segment of the population passionately involved with wildlife, which is

1864
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 1: very interested to maintain wildlife, which gladly um sacrifice on

1865
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: behalf of wildlife. And at the same time wildlife is

1866
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 1: then being used for food by humans and the very

1867
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:45,880
Speaker 1: very best meat in the world comes from wildlife. There's

1868
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:49,320
Speaker 1: no if on babies about that. Yeah, m hm. And

1869
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:57,200
Speaker 1: so what you have then is a public support of wildlife,

1870
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 1: and it wildlife has the future because everybody looks forward

1871
01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 1: to seeing wildlife next fall and going out and hunting

1872
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:07,599
Speaker 1: next fall and being able to eat it. And by

1873
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 1: the way, and just some statistics are important. At the minimum,

1874
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:17,000
Speaker 1: the wolf in Yellowstone takes down sixteen elk a year.

1875
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:22,559
Speaker 1: That's the winter meat of sixteen families. Have you seen

1876
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:25,160
Speaker 1: Can you imagine twenty two elk or twenty four elk

1877
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 1: standing on the in the meadow, on the lawn in

1878
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 1: front of your house. Yeah, that's what wolf killed when

1879
01:49:32,120 --> 01:49:35,240
Speaker 1: things are good. Yeah, Well, like I said, we've I've

1880
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:38,559
Speaker 1: seen anyst enormous Yeah, I've seen those things go off

1881
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:40,760
Speaker 1: in areas where I have hunted, where wolves come through

1882
01:49:40,960 --> 01:49:43,479
Speaker 1: and and everything gets on their feet, everything is disturbed

1883
01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:46,040
Speaker 1: and it just changes everything and I eat it. And

1884
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:47,880
Speaker 1: at the same time, we do have an obligation to

1885
01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 1: conserve wolves, no tways about it. I have seen and

1886
01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:54,639
Speaker 1: I've lived in the system where wolves were doing well,

1887
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:57,920
Speaker 1: where while that was doing well, where hunters were doing well,

1888
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 1: and we thought we were having a marvelous place which

1889
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:03,559
Speaker 1: we have to conserve because we thought that was natural,

1890
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 1: it wasn't well. And then there's some you know, I'm

1891
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,320
Speaker 1: glad to hear you say there's some there's an obligatory

1892
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:12,120
Speaker 1: nature to it rather than an emotional nature to you know,

1893
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:15,280
Speaker 1: we have to we have to see these things as

1894
01:50:15,280 --> 01:50:18,439
Speaker 1: an obligation, right, something that we have to look after everything.

1895
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:25,920
Speaker 1: And the more diverse the natural system is, the greater

1896
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:30,280
Speaker 1: are the opportunities for some unpopular animals to exist, something

1897
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 1: like the rattlesnakes. Yeah, not very popular, but there's a

1898
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: place for them in nature. And if you protect um

1899
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:43,439
Speaker 1: landscapes so that the big fellows can exist. All the

1900
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:47,640
Speaker 1: little ones will be there. So this is what you

1901
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,880
Speaker 1: have done in North Americas to simply demonstrate that with

1902
01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:54,440
Speaker 1: the public ownership of wildlife, you can create by diversity,

1903
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 1: you can create productivity, you can create beauty, you can

1904
01:50:57,400 --> 01:51:02,559
Speaker 1: create a great employment and as economically, it's a wonderful model.

1905
01:51:03,160 --> 01:51:07,280
Speaker 1: But it depends on the utilization of Last night, I

1906
01:51:07,280 --> 01:51:09,640
Speaker 1: think to to to wrap things up. I mean, we

1907
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:12,559
Speaker 1: could go on for so long about this, this book,

1908
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 1: and I think we we asked our our listeners to

1909
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:18,640
Speaker 1: write in and and review the book and then and

1910
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:23,320
Speaker 1: ask some questions um, and so hopefully yeah we have.

1911
01:51:23,560 --> 01:51:26,719
Speaker 1: I I read through dozens of these and I picked

1912
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:32,720
Speaker 1: one from Cody tilt out of Wyoming, and Cody had

1913
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:34,559
Speaker 1: one he had a question. But in his review of

1914
01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:38,200
Speaker 1: the book, he said he said this, He said, I

1915
01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:42,479
Speaker 1: feel like I never quite knew the breath and depth

1916
01:51:42,920 --> 01:51:48,439
Speaker 1: of my experiences outside. I never knew hunting um until

1917
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:52,360
Speaker 1: I read this book. I could really understand the complex

1918
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:56,599
Speaker 1: nature of what I was taking part in. And I

1919
01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:59,160
Speaker 1: can't wait to share this with my friends and family

1920
01:51:59,560 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 1: and every one that that asked me questionable. So that

1921
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 1: was part of his he wrote a long email, but

1922
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:07,320
Speaker 1: that was part of his email and his questions. He

1923
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:09,360
Speaker 1: wrote a lot of questions, but I think one of

1924
01:52:09,400 --> 01:52:11,760
Speaker 1: his questions was I think something I know that you

1925
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:14,680
Speaker 1: thought of. It's discussed in this book. He puts it

1926
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:18,679
Speaker 1: well and it's very simply. You know what is going

1927
01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:23,040
Speaker 1: to happen in the future to this model. What needs

1928
01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:27,120
Speaker 1: to change to keep it going? Well, what needs to

1929
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:29,719
Speaker 1: change is keep it going is we have to get

1930
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:34,000
Speaker 1: some sanity back into an and to our environmentalism. We

1931
01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:37,559
Speaker 1: have to get away from the extremes extremes of you

1932
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:42,679
Speaker 1: protect this, you protect that, and you tried to get

1933
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:45,120
Speaker 1: back to nature, and so for you have to realize

1934
01:52:45,160 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 1: that what was natural is long gone. We now have

1935
01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:54,680
Speaker 1: the obligation to look after nature. That's our obligation, and

1936
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:58,559
Speaker 1: our obligation is to maintain every piece of nature we

1937
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 1: must have obtained by the versit t And the best

1938
01:53:02,600 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 1: way to maintain biodiversity is to have as much of

1939
01:53:05,200 --> 01:53:08,840
Speaker 1: the public involved with while that as possible. And when

1940
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:12,360
Speaker 1: you have a public that is looking forward to the

1941
01:53:12,439 --> 01:53:15,080
Speaker 1: hunting season, I mean there is such a thing as

1942
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:18,479
Speaker 1: a Swedish illness in Sweden. Yeah, that's when the men

1943
01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 1: disappeared hunting moose. That's a Swedish illness. And when you

1944
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 1: have that kind of appreciation, you are going to have

1945
01:53:28,080 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: exactly that what the model has done in the past,

1946
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 1: which is now being destroyed by I think a rather

1947
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:41,040
Speaker 1: ill informed and malignant environmentalism, and that is the over

1948
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:45,600
Speaker 1: protection of predators or protection of landscapes. We have to

1949
01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:51,880
Speaker 1: realize that we have the obligation to manage, to manage intelligently,

1950
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 1: and the model has shown the way. How yeah, I

1951
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 1: think there's no better place to end because as I

1952
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 1: search for you know, we have the certain flash points

1953
01:54:00,960 --> 01:54:04,479
Speaker 1: and we discussed them here. We discussed uh, you know,

1954
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:08,840
Speaker 1: charismatic megaphone and predators and there's certain like flashpoints that,

1955
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:14,840
Speaker 1: oh boy, you should get into how Neanderthal hunted. You know,

1956
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:17,879
Speaker 1: you are a hunter and you take it for granted

1957
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:20,479
Speaker 1: that you go out and take a weapon and you start.

1958
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:27,479
Speaker 1: Neanderthal was a super predator that was nocturnal. He hunted

1959
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:32,080
Speaker 1: at night. He had big, big eyes, bigger than your

1960
01:54:32,080 --> 01:54:36,680
Speaker 1: own mind. He had a brain that was larger than mind,

1961
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:40,040
Speaker 1: and but it was not large in the front. It

1962
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:45,400
Speaker 1: was large in the basement parts. That's where vision is located.

1963
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,320
Speaker 1: In the brain and other ways. The parts of the

1964
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:53,000
Speaker 1: brain that support vision were huge in neander top absolutely huge,

1965
01:54:54,440 --> 01:55:00,760
Speaker 1: and they Neanderthal hunters men and women suffered own breakages

1966
01:55:02,440 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 1: and the bone breakages resembled that of cow rodeo cowboys.

1967
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:13,280
Speaker 1: And what they were killing primarily were very hairy beasts,

1968
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:18,960
Speaker 1: beasts that you could hang onto when you put your

1969
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:24,800
Speaker 1: hand into it. Yeah, basically there were two hunters involved

1970
01:55:24,840 --> 01:55:29,400
Speaker 1: in the killing of a large hairy beast. Uh, the

1971
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:32,360
Speaker 1: one who hung onto the beast to distract it and

1972
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:34,720
Speaker 1: the other one who killed it with the spear of

1973
01:55:35,000 --> 01:55:38,920
Speaker 1: very sophisticated design. I mean, history is a lot of fun,

1974
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:43,560
Speaker 1: and here we have a hunter that survived for about

1975
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:48,960
Speaker 1: four thousand years. Eventually they died out for various reasons,

1976
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:52,400
Speaker 1: but I found them quite fascinating. This is why it's

1977
01:55:52,400 --> 01:55:55,000
Speaker 1: interesting to go into the history of human beings. Human

1978
01:55:55,040 --> 01:56:00,000
Speaker 1: beings have been incredible, absolutely incredible, And just as incredible

1979
01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:03,240
Speaker 1: is really our system of wild of conservation when you

1980
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:05,760
Speaker 1: think about it globally, because it's so unique. But by

1981
01:56:05,760 --> 01:56:07,800
Speaker 1: the way, the Russians for a while tried to get it,

1982
01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:10,760
Speaker 1: but the oligarchy went out and they didn't get it.

1983
01:56:11,160 --> 01:56:15,400
Speaker 1: But I had several of my papers translated into Russian

1984
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:18,400
Speaker 1: and published at that time. Point. It's too bad. But

1985
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:23,000
Speaker 1: our model is still and it is unique. In another sense,

1986
01:56:23,240 --> 01:56:27,520
Speaker 1: it can only be done in an armed society. Our

1987
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:31,600
Speaker 1: model cannot be transferred to China because the Chinese do

1988
01:56:31,640 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 1: not allow arms to the citizens. We're living in a

1989
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:39,480
Speaker 1: on the continent in which we have so much trust

1990
01:56:39,480 --> 01:56:42,360
Speaker 1: in each other that we allow each other to be armed.

1991
01:56:42,800 --> 01:56:47,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's wonderful, Yeah, I mean what you said.

1992
01:56:47,560 --> 01:56:49,640
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when I'm talking to you, I feel

1993
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:51,640
Speaker 1: like in the need end with all myself because there's

1994
01:56:51,680 --> 01:56:54,800
Speaker 1: so I feel like we could have these conversations for

1995
01:56:54,840 --> 01:56:56,920
Speaker 1: three or four hours every single time. We'd probably do

1996
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 1: it weekly. UM, You've you've read so much, to study

1997
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:03,880
Speaker 1: so much. We will, We definitely will. But I just

1998
01:57:03,880 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: want to say that, you know again, I know we

1999
01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:08,480
Speaker 1: said this last time when you're here, but I appreciate

2000
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 1: your willingness to come and talk with us, and your

2001
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:14,240
Speaker 1: willingness to well, really to commit your whole life to

2002
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:17,160
Speaker 1: these ideas that are so important to my generation, the

2003
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:22,280
Speaker 1: next generation. UM, and I think it's it's so incredibly

2004
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 1: important to hear what you have to say, and to

2005
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 1: to read this work and to continue to have the

2006
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: dialogue that that you've been having. I'm very glad that

2007
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:39,879
Speaker 1: you have an access to broadcast your visions. And congratulations,

2008
01:57:40,000 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 1: very important what you're doing. Thank you, Thank you very much,

2009
01:57:42,280 --> 01:57:46,640
Speaker 1: Dr Geist And we will definitely catch up soon and hopefully, yeah,

2010
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:50,600
Speaker 1: hopefully I'll be able to come over and we'll hang

2011
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 1: out in your in the will COVID nineteen will not

2012
01:57:54,560 --> 01:57:57,320
Speaker 1: last forever, that's right. And and could you just quickly

2013
01:57:57,360 --> 01:58:00,320
Speaker 1: describe before we go, what's your set up there? What's

2014
01:58:00,320 --> 01:58:02,360
Speaker 1: the cabin like or what you know, what's the house like?

2015
01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:08,000
Speaker 1: Deep in the woods? I have a house on and

2016
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:11,640
Speaker 1: I have I have been filmed during a number of times.

2017
01:58:12,040 --> 01:58:13,760
Speaker 1: And you're looking at a room in which there are

2018
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:15,480
Speaker 1: quite a few ants us hanging on the wall and

2019
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:19,040
Speaker 1: pictures and so on the four. Uh. It's those that

2020
01:58:19,200 --> 01:58:21,560
Speaker 1: have filmed have told me that it's an ideal to

2021
01:58:22,040 --> 01:58:25,720
Speaker 1: set up so you can come and visit here. We

2022
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:29,480
Speaker 1: have got excellent facilities in our little town which is

2023
01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:35,760
Speaker 1: about um twenty minutes away or so. And uh, as

2024
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:39,000
Speaker 1: I said, uh, it's not the first time that people

2025
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:42,920
Speaker 1: have come and visited me and we've had films taken

2026
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:45,680
Speaker 1: of me. Well that's beautiful. Well again, I just want

2027
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:47,520
Speaker 1: to say thank you very much for all that you

2028
01:58:47,560 --> 01:58:50,040
Speaker 1: do and all that you've done. Okay, and thank you.

2029
01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:55,840
Speaker 1: Till next time, I will SI say goodbye, bye bye, goodbye.

2030
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,040
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thanks

2031
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:06,920
Speaker 1: for sticking with us for Yanni Patelis has asked the

2032
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:12,080
Speaker 1: Eagle and conversation with Dr Valarious Geist again. Hopefully my

2033
01:59:12,240 --> 01:59:14,400
Speaker 1: the precursor to the interview where I kind of apologize

2034
01:59:14,440 --> 01:59:19,480
Speaker 1: for poor interviewing performance didn't dampen your enjoyment the larger

2035
01:59:19,520 --> 01:59:23,280
Speaker 1: points of Dr Geist because that book, the North American

2036
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:26,800
Speaker 1: Widdle Model of Waddle, I said, North American Waddle, North

2037
01:59:26,840 --> 01:59:31,120
Speaker 1: American Model of wildlife conservation book that was edited by

2038
01:59:31,120 --> 01:59:33,640
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney and Vlarious Cast but also includes many other

2039
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:37,760
Speaker 1: impactful individuals in the conservation space. Is an important book.

2040
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 1: So if you haven't read it, go read it. And

2041
01:59:40,520 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 1: if you read it for the TC book Club and

2042
01:59:42,840 --> 01:59:44,920
Speaker 1: your question didn't get in there, sorry about that. It

2043
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 1: was hard to get a question in Edge of Wise

2044
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:48,440
Speaker 1: with Dr Geist because he has so much to say.

2045
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:51,480
Speaker 1: But it's a book we should all take a look

2046
01:59:51,480 --> 01:59:54,160
Speaker 1: at I was actually Phil. I was up camping with

2047
01:59:54,200 --> 01:59:57,480
Speaker 1: the kiddos over the weekend by a nice lake and

2048
01:59:57,560 --> 02:00:00,480
Speaker 1: this backcountry lake here in Montana, and I brought that

2049
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:02,800
Speaker 1: book and I was I was going to read it

2050
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:05,880
Speaker 1: like when everybody was resting or fishing or sleeping. I

2051
02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 1: was going to read it. Um. But that never happened

2052
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:12,320
Speaker 1: because everybody was running around. But I did read a

2053
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:14,520
Speaker 1: few paragraphs to my kid and he was he was

2054
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 1: interested in what this is all about. So don't read

2055
02:00:18,320 --> 02:00:23,080
Speaker 1: it to your kids. Oh, I would never. Never if

2056
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:25,360
Speaker 1: you want to put him to sleep. It's a very

2057
02:00:25,400 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 1: technical book, I will say that, but it's but it's

2058
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:32,520
Speaker 1: essential knowledge, essential knowledge for every hunter an angler out there. Um,

2059
02:00:32,720 --> 02:00:34,960
Speaker 1: pheels you feel like? Asked the eagle went well, yeah,

2060
02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:40,080
Speaker 1: I thought that was great. Brandon was a great first guest. Canadians. Yeah. Nice,

2061
02:00:41,520 --> 02:00:45,920
Speaker 1: nice play individuals. Speaking of nice polite individuals. Um. Next

2062
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 1: week is and Phil just can't every time he knows

2063
02:00:49,720 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna say, he can't contain himself. Next week

2064
02:00:54,280 --> 02:00:57,640
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into Now, We're gonna get into uh,

2065
02:00:57,640 --> 02:01:02,000
Speaker 1: it's an opposition show. We had doctor guys talking about

2066
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:06,160
Speaker 1: intelligent intervention and that we should be managing predators, that

2067
02:01:06,200 --> 02:01:09,520
Speaker 1: we should be actively managing them through hunting and other means.

2068
02:01:10,640 --> 02:01:13,040
Speaker 1: And next week we're going to kind of address the

2069
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:16,120
Speaker 1: opposite opinion, and in this case, the opposite have been

2070
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:21,200
Speaker 1: belongs to Dr Barry Kay Gilbert. What now, let me

2071
02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:24,680
Speaker 1: just explain myself, Phil, Okay, because you're still you know,

2072
02:01:25,040 --> 02:01:27,160
Speaker 1: as the residents skept it. You told me about this,

2073
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:30,280
Speaker 1: uh a few days ago, and I just I was

2074
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:32,600
Speaker 1: telling you, I think I think it might be the

2075
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 1: better idea to just keep this book closed. Man. Well,

2076
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm not I like to uh, I like to embrace

2077
02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 1: my bad ideas. Okay. So I emailed Dr Barry kay Or.

2078
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:47,560
Speaker 1: We hadn't spoken since, you know, briefly after the last show.

2079
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:50,840
Speaker 1: He was very upset by some of the responses that

2080
02:01:50,920 --> 02:01:54,120
Speaker 1: he got from our program. But I felt after we

2081
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:58,560
Speaker 1: named after the salty Gilbert, after the element salty Gilbert

2082
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:01,520
Speaker 1: that we came up, I had just he is on

2083
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:05,640
Speaker 1: my mind a lot. It's thinking about him. Um. The

2084
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:07,880
Speaker 1: inter actual interview guests from next week is again named

2085
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 1: Chris Dermont. We'll talk about him, but he brought that

2086
02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 1: interview up when him and I were talking about some

2087
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:15,480
Speaker 1: of these issues. And as I was telling Phil, a

2088
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 1: week doesn't go by where I don't either have an

2089
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:22,840
Speaker 1: email about or think about Dr Barry K. Gilbert. And

2090
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 1: I thought, well, what a relationship I have with this

2091
02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:27,400
Speaker 1: man where he is? He is a weekly part of

2092
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:30,200
Speaker 1: my life, and yet we don't talk. And so I

2093
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:35,480
Speaker 1: reached out and I offered to bury the hatchet. Basically said, hey, like,

2094
02:02:35,600 --> 02:02:37,560
Speaker 1: come on, let's have some fun. Let's bury the hatchet.

2095
02:02:37,600 --> 02:02:40,520
Speaker 1: Let's talk about our core values and where they align

2096
02:02:40,640 --> 02:02:44,840
Speaker 1: rather than arguing about what we argued about prior. There's

2097
02:02:44,840 --> 02:02:46,920
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of ways that it could go.

2098
02:02:47,800 --> 02:02:50,400
Speaker 1: And so next week you'll see how it did go.

2099
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:56,360
Speaker 1: So hang on to your seats, right Phil. That's great?

2100
02:02:56,840 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 1: And Phil is conspicuously go on a vacation right after

2101
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:02,640
Speaker 1: we finished it up, So yeah, you might need it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just assume that that everything's gonna come

2103
02:03:05,800 --> 02:03:09,720
Speaker 1: crashing down after this interview. Well maybe this is the

2104
02:03:09,800 --> 02:03:13,040
Speaker 1: last or the next to the last episode of th HC.

2105
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:17,880
Speaker 1: While I'm at it, go give us a review on iTunes, Subscribe,

2106
02:03:17,920 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: tell your friends to subscribe, do all you kind of

2107
02:03:20,680 --> 02:03:23,600
Speaker 1: support the show. We certainly need it to support my

2108
02:03:23,680 --> 02:03:25,960
Speaker 1: bad ideas. There's also a new podcast on the met

2109
02:03:25,960 --> 02:03:30,440
Speaker 1: eat podcast network Ben Oh, Yeah Bent ben CNT check

2110
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:33,440
Speaker 1: it out, Get Bent, check it out Yeah Fishing Podcast

2111
02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:37,160
Speaker 1: Miles Nulte, Joe, Sir Mellie. You'll hear the ads, hopefully

2112
02:03:37,160 --> 02:03:39,040
Speaker 1: you'll hear the podcast. It's a good one. It's different

2113
02:03:39,040 --> 02:03:41,360
Speaker 1: than anything you've ever heard. I guarantee it, So go

2114
02:03:41,640 --> 02:03:43,400
Speaker 1: give it a listen and we will see you next

2115
02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 1: week for Barry Kay Gilbert Talking Bears. But because I

2116
02:03:50,760 --> 02:04:03,040
Speaker 1: can't go a week without doing right way wrong, I'm

2117
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Speaker 1: waiting wrong, drinking in Heaven. M