WEBVTT - Selects: The Truth Behind Cage-Free and Free-Range

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<v Speaker 1>Hey everyone, it's me Josh, and for this week's select,

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<v Speaker 1>I've chosen our episode on free range and cage free.

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<v Speaker 1>What do they mean? Do they mean anything? Turns out

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<v Speaker 1>they do mean something, but not what you'd think. This

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<v Speaker 1>is starting to get kind of tough to follow, so

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<v Speaker 1>I say, just listen to the episode. But this one

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<v Speaker 1>changed my mind about a lot of stuff, and I

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<v Speaker 1>hope it opens your eyes too.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck in it. Just something is going on with Chuck.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm okay so far, but Jerry's not here because she

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<v Speaker 1>turned into the Chicken Lady and his in treatment.

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<v Speaker 3>For that.

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<v Speaker 2>Doing the chicken dance.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you remember the Chicken Lady from Kids in the Hall?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Sure, I was referencing the rest of the development. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're taking it back even further to the great,

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<v Speaker 2>great Kids in the Hall.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>I can just sit here and quote Kids in the

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<v Speaker 1>Hall one liners all day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I love those guys.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's not what we're here to do, though, Chuck,

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<v Speaker 1>Settle down, settle down. We're going away from the Kids

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<v Speaker 1>in the Hall.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, And since you mentioned that, what we're also not

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<v Speaker 2>here to do is shame anybody or make anyone feel bad,

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<v Speaker 2>or to tell anyone how to live their life and

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<v Speaker 2>eat their breakfast. But we're here to arm you with

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<v Speaker 2>information on this one about And I'm not surprised you

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<v Speaker 2>picked this one, but I just thought since I had

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<v Speaker 2>a somewhat scarring experience any commercial chicken farming industry. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>for those of you listening that don't know, this, one

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<v Speaker 2>of my last real person jobs before this job many

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, as I worked for a software company that

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<v Speaker 2>designed software for commercial chicken operations to better track how

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<v Speaker 2>they lay eggs and how they gain weight, and how

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<v Speaker 2>you're feeding them and kind of everything how they're killed.

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<v Speaker 2>And I hated that job. It was sole killing and

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<v Speaker 2>I never understood it. I never invested in it, and

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<v Speaker 2>as far as understanding the software, and I was in

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<v Speaker 2>tech support, and so I was terrible at it. But

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<v Speaker 2>my friends ran the company and eventually they fired me

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<v Speaker 2>because I was so bad at it. Wow, And that's

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<v Speaker 2>the best thing that ever happened to me, because that

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<v Speaker 2>led directly to getting this job.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like Garth Brooks said, some of God's greatest gifts

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<v Speaker 1>are unanswered prayers. All right, sure, you know made your

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<v Speaker 1>prayer to be good at your chicken killing software job

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<v Speaker 1>was unanswered, and instead an even better prayer that you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't even know you had was answered.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have that prayer. I didn't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>good at that job.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, so this is like all this is probably

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<v Speaker 1>pretty well known to you because this is we've been

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<v Speaker 1>doing this kind of stuff to chickens for a good

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<v Speaker 1>seventy years by now.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, you know the you know, we're gonna talk

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<v Speaker 2>some about factory farming. Finally we've I don't think we've

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<v Speaker 2>dodged it, but people have, you know, long said hey, guys,

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<v Speaker 2>can you get into this? And you know, we're not

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<v Speaker 2>touching cattle or swine. We're just starting dipping our toe

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<v Speaker 2>into it with poultry. Dipping our beaks, dipping our beaks

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<v Speaker 2>are untrimmed beaks.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can peck you till the cows come home,

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<v Speaker 1>which is something that happens on the farm.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's enough dancing around, Chuck. We're talking about today,

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<v Speaker 1>not necessarily factory farming, although like you said, we have

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about it. We're gonna talk about those labels

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<v Speaker 1>that you see on your eggs or on your chicken,

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<v Speaker 1>usually cage free or free range or something along those

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<v Speaker 1>lines and other it means anything. But one of the

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<v Speaker 1>great successes of the last probably five six, maybe even

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<v Speaker 1>ten years or longer, came very quietly out of the

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<v Speaker 1>effective altruism community.

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<v Speaker 3>Chuck, oh, really yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>A group of effective altruists said, you know, we're always

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<v Speaker 1>looking to maximize our charitable contributions. There's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>chickens out there that are not being treated very well. Supposedly,

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<v Speaker 1>there's seven point six billion egg laying hens alone worldwide

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<v Speaker 1>at any given time, almost eight billion, So if you

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<v Speaker 1>could improve the lives of them even by a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>you would really be reducing a massive amount of suffering.

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<v Speaker 1>So they got three million dollars together and like Laser,

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<v Speaker 1>focused it on advocacy, lobbying, getting legislation put through, and

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<v Speaker 1>then most of all, pressuring really really big companies. They

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<v Speaker 1>went after some whales to commit to going one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>percent cage free eggs within a very short period of time,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes twenty twenty four, sometimes twenty thirty. But all of

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<v Speaker 1>these huge companies, everybody from dan Own to Burger King,

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<v Speaker 1>to McDonald's, to Whole Foods, not surprisingly but also like

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<v Speaker 1>Dollar General, all of them have signed a pledge that says,

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<v Speaker 1>all of the eggs that our customers buy, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>in prepared food or eggs you buy in the store,

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<v Speaker 1>are going to be one hundred percent cage free eggs

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<v Speaker 1>within the next few years. And they did it with

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<v Speaker 1>like three million dollars and a lot of elbow grease.

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<v Speaker 2>I love it. I think all those companies probably said,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, all right, if they're cheese, if they're KG

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<v Speaker 2>free eggs out there, will use them, stop hassling me.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's what the Burger King said.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the guy that big uh Yeah, but he said

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<v Speaker 2>it with his mind, right, yeah, because his mouth doesn't move.

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<v Speaker 3>But it was a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the fact that they got that, that that's happening.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a big deal. And it's one of those things.

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<v Speaker 1>Where if you scratch beneath the surface, it's not an

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<v Speaker 1>intended pun, but if you scratch beneath the surface, and

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these terms and phrases that the USDA

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<v Speaker 1>likes to bandy about, things like cage free and things

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<v Speaker 1>like free range and stuff like that, it's often really disappointing.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's one of the things about cage free is

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<v Speaker 1>that it is an actual substantial increase in the welfare

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<v Speaker 1>and quality of life for egg laying chickens in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a big, big deal.

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<v Speaker 2>It is.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not that they're in these amazing conditions all

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<v Speaker 1>of a sudden with cage free, it's that they're in

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<v Speaker 1>such poor conditions otherwise that this is a huge improvement

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<v Speaker 1>for them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think you know, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>will agree even k free isn't all it's cracked up

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<v Speaker 2>to be.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of like chicken based idioms that we use.

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<v Speaker 1>There's suddenly coming to the I hadn't noticed.

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<v Speaker 2>When I worked with that company. They made everybody at

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<v Speaker 2>one point, even if you didn't do like project management

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<v Speaker 2>where you had to go to the farms, they made

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<v Speaker 2>us all go to the farms and tech support at

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<v Speaker 2>one point. And I know I've told the story before,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was a pretty awful experience, and it smells

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<v Speaker 2>really really bad. It smells so bad that me and

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<v Speaker 2>my one friend that I worked with, Barry, were like,

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<v Speaker 2>did sort of the silence of the Lamb's trick with

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<v Speaker 2>dabbing some like menthol on our upper lip, under our nostrils,

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<v Speaker 2>just so we could walk through these things. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I think they thought it would benefit us just sort

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<v Speaker 2>of just see boots on the ground. What happened. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I appreciate the feel trip, but it did

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<v Speaker 2>not benefit me in any way except hearing things like

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<v Speaker 2>oh myn cage or pre range just means there's a

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<v Speaker 2>door open. They don't even use it. And I heard

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<v Speaker 2>this back then, I was like, oh my gosh, is

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<v Speaker 2>that true. And as it turns out, as we'll see,

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<v Speaker 2>that's kind of true.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And we shouldn't confused free range with cage free.

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<v Speaker 1>They're two different things. We'll describe them both. But yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so cage free is a huge improvement. Free range is

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<v Speaker 1>as bad as you'd expect it to be because it's

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<v Speaker 1>coming from the USDA.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I guess let's talk about let's briefly, and

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<v Speaker 2>big thanks to Dave Ruse for helping us out with

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<v Speaker 2>this one. But Dave starts out with a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of history, and I think that's a good place to

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<v Speaker 2>start because you don't have to look very far back

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<v Speaker 2>in this country. It seems like a long time ago,

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<v Speaker 2>But the nineteen forties isn't that long ago in the

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<v Speaker 2>lifespan of America. And back then they were still like

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<v Speaker 2>feeding America their eggs or its eggs. I don't even

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<v Speaker 2>know what America is with backyard chickens. Basically, they were

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<v Speaker 2>big farms, of course, but they weren't like these big,

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<v Speaker 2>massive battery cages that we see today. They were hens

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<v Speaker 2>living outdoors, generally on farms, laid about one hundred eggs

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<v Speaker 2>a year, and then after a few years, when they

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<v Speaker 2>quit laying eggs, then they would be used for meat.

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<v Speaker 3>They'd turn into Sunday dinner they would.

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<v Speaker 2>And these days, starting in like the fifties, things became

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<v Speaker 2>a little more industrialized and mechanized, and that's when battery

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<v Speaker 2>cages came into play, which is the wire cage that

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<v Speaker 2>you might like. If you have friends that have backyard chickens,

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<v Speaker 2>you probably built them a large coupe and within that

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<v Speaker 2>coup some battery cages. But if you're a backyard chicken person,

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<v Speaker 2>you probably have battery cages that are very large for

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<v Speaker 2>two or three four chickens.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, these are not the battery cages that they're raised in.

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<v Speaker 1>After farming became industrialized in the fifties, like these things

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<v Speaker 1>are usually have. I've seen anywhere between three and seven

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<v Speaker 1>chickens in there, and usually each one has about the

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<v Speaker 1>amount of space about a little lower or a little

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<v Speaker 1>smaller than the size of a standard piece of paper.

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<v Speaker 1>And for the teenage listeners out there, it's smaller than

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<v Speaker 1>the size are about the size of an iPad.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, that's a chick.

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<v Speaker 3>A chicken.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't move around, they can't flap their wings, they

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<v Speaker 1>can't do a lot of stuff that we'll find out

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<v Speaker 1>is a big problem in a minute. They're meant to

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<v Speaker 1>be kept basically in one place, and because this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>has all been industrialized, their whole job, in everything about

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<v Speaker 1>their life is to just sit there and lay egg

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<v Speaker 1>after egg after egg. So they're kept in these battery cages.

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<v Speaker 1>The battery cages are kept off the ground, which is

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<v Speaker 1>good because it means that they're away from parasites and

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<v Speaker 1>poop born diseases.

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<v Speaker 2>And the eggs are yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>They when they poop, they they it falls onto a

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<v Speaker 1>conveyor belt that carries the poop away, so it's a

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<v Speaker 1>little more sanitary. When they lay an egg the bottom

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<v Speaker 1>of the cage is slanted downward, so it rolls downward

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<v Speaker 1>onto a different conveyor belt. Thankfully that whisks the egg away.

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<v Speaker 1>So the whole thing is really automated. And because these

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<v Speaker 1>cages are so they can be stacked. It's modular, so

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<v Speaker 1>you can go upward with chickens as well as outward too.

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<v Speaker 1>You can really raise a lot of chickens in these

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<v Speaker 1>battery cages. Just good if you're a farmer, not really

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<v Speaker 1>good if you're a chicken though.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and these chickens, you know, I said that the

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<v Speaker 2>backyard chickens of your laid about one hundred eggs a year.

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<v Speaker 2>Today's chickens lay closer to three hundred eggs a year

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<v Speaker 2>because they are bread as specifically to do so, and

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<v Speaker 2>just the way that beyond being bred to do so,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, they're set up as such that it's

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<v Speaker 2>just you know, they have made it a very efficient

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<v Speaker 2>operation as far as how much they can extract from

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<v Speaker 2>each hen.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that was a real quick chuck.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a big part of the industrialization of farming too,

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<v Speaker 1>is breeding practices, to where we started selectively breeding types

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<v Speaker 1>of chickens that either laid a perfectly nice brown egg

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<v Speaker 1>or ones that gained weight in certain places that we

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<v Speaker 1>wanted them to.

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<v Speaker 2>Like.

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<v Speaker 3>Genetics has been a huge part of that as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're really lucky because our really really good friends,

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<v Speaker 2>Justin and Melissa. I've known Justin since college, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Justin Sure they have chickens. They have these four beautiful

0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.960
<v Speaker 2>ladies in their backyard. Awesome, and they have a big,

0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:21.040
<v Speaker 2>wonderful coup. But anytime they're outside and can safeguard them

0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.480
<v Speaker 2>from hawks by keeping an eye on them. Those ladies

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.880
<v Speaker 2>are running around the yard with their dogs. They somehow

0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.760
<v Speaker 2>managed to train these dogs to kind of give them

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.880
<v Speaker 2>their space. And it's great. And you know, they give

0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.839
<v Speaker 2>us eggs and we spend money in their wine shop

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 2>and it's a great symbiotic relationship that is really great.

0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:41.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, it's a.

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Good We save our cartons and stuff when we do

0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 2>have to buy eggs, so they have cartons to give

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.079
<v Speaker 2>out to their friends because these ladies are laying a

0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:48.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of eggs.

0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:53.199
<v Speaker 1>Lightly So Justin has chickens in a wine shop. Now

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 1>he's living the life.

0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>O man, it's the American dream realized by my British

0:12:58.920 --> 0:12:59.559
<v Speaker 2>import friend.

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 3>Look good. So he's doing it. What you could call

0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:05.880
<v Speaker 3>the right way, I.

0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Think, which is to say, very not necessarily the profit

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 1>maximizing way. But the chickens are, you would guess, much

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.720
<v Speaker 1>happier than the ones that are in these battery cages.

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.199
<v Speaker 1>And one of the reasons why we would say the

0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 1>chickens are not so happy in the battery cage is because,

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.839
<v Speaker 1>like again, they can't move. If you put a chicken

0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 1>on a piece of paper, it's going to take up

0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.800
<v Speaker 1>most of that piece of paper or iPad, right, So

0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.840
<v Speaker 1>when you visualize that, you suddenly get like, this is

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.040
<v Speaker 1>this is for the whole for its whole life, usually

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.199
<v Speaker 1>somewhere around seventy weeks. This is how it spends almost

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.199
<v Speaker 1>all of that time in this little cage, just laying eggs,

0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:51.160
<v Speaker 1>laying eggs to at at an unnatural pace. And because

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of stuck in this one small place, there's

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of things that it can't do that people

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 1>who have studied chickens say, chickens to do this or

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.160
<v Speaker 1>else they're going to go insane and have a really

0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 1>horrific life. And that is kind of what the basis

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 1>of creating like cage free setups or like genuine free

0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.080
<v Speaker 1>range setups is it comes from giving chickens a better

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.720
<v Speaker 1>life while during those seventy or so weeks that they're alive.

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy for somebody, maybe

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>who doesn't think about it much, to think of a

0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 2>laying him as just this sort of organic egg machine,

0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 2>like a living egg machine. Not organic in the sense

0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.000
<v Speaker 2>that it's you know, sort of hard organic, but a

0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.640
<v Speaker 2>living machine that just pumps out these eggs that we

0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>love to eat for breakfast or out on top of

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 2>a hamburger or you know, rice crispies a could meal. Ooh,

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about that, but that's not the case. Like,

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.800
<v Speaker 2>these birds have personalities and they have behaviors that they

0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 2>want to do and that they normally do. Like it's

0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 2>just a handful of them they love. And you know,

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.280
<v Speaker 2>you can see this when I go over to Justin

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and Melissa's house when they're out doing their thing. They're

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 2>preening and they're cleaning their feathers and they're flapping, ruffling

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 2>their feathers around and flapping around, and they take little

0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.640
<v Speaker 2>dust bass, which means they roll around on the ground

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 2>and they're absorbing oil for their feathers and they're getting

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 2>rid of their dead skin, and they're shedding feathers that

0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>they don't need and little feather mites, and they love

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.480
<v Speaker 2>to nest. And then here's the big one is And

0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I've seen it happen and I've tried to guard my

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 2>eyes because i know what's going on. They don't like

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of attention when they're laying these eggs. They're

0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.640
<v Speaker 2>giving birth. It's a private matter to them, you know,

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.720
<v Speaker 2>giving birth in the figurative sense, but it's like they're

0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 2>doing their business. They don't want a lot of attention.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 2>They like to do this instinctively in private, and they're

0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 2>not able to do that. It's called the laying act

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's on full display. And they can get so

0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 2>upset about having to do this without any privacy in

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 2>battery cages, not can they do. They get so upset

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.600
<v Speaker 2>they pecket other hens and they fight each other, and

0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 2>that's why they end up clipping their beaks because the

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.360
<v Speaker 2>other hens are getting injured from being hen pecked because

0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.320
<v Speaker 2>they're stressed out from living on an iPad.

0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, doctor Conrad Lorenz or Lorenz who starred in our

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.320
<v Speaker 1>Animal Imprinting episode, I think he's popped up elsewhere. He

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 1>had a quote he said, the worst torture to which

0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 1>a battery hen is exposed is the inability to retire

0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.720
<v Speaker 1>somewhere for the laying act. Yeah, the person who knows

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 1>something about animals, it is truly heartrending to watch how

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 1>a chicken tries again and again to crawl beneath her

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 1>fellow cage mates to search there in vain for cover.

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because they don't get what's going on too. It

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>is it's heartbreaking.

0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, like that is an enormous thing. Like, not

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 1>only are we forcing them to have two hundred percent

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 1>more eggs every year, forcing them to do it against

0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 1>their instinct basically every day, and they really suffer a

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 1>tremendous amount of distress for that. And then one of

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 1>the other ones, one of the other behaviors that's really

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:15.000
<v Speaker 1>really big, is roaming their freedom to rome. Chickens are

0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.159
<v Speaker 1>very social animals. They like to hang out, they like

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.320
<v Speaker 1>to mess with each other. They like to prene one another,

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.720
<v Speaker 1>not just pre themselves, but they also need space to

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 1>get away from one another. And when they can't do that,

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.919
<v Speaker 1>that's when things like henpecking to an injurious degree or

0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:36.400
<v Speaker 1>cannibalism where all sorts of terrible zoochosis can happen when

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 1>chickens are stuck together in a very small area for

0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.360
<v Speaker 1>their entire lives. And that is the basis of battery cages.

0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.639
<v Speaker 1>And you said, it's like it makes sense from a

0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:52.719
<v Speaker 1>mechanized industrial standpoint. But back in the day when they

0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 1>figure this out, these are the same people who resisted

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 1>putting seatbelts in cars and got us into Vietnam, you

0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.000
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean, Like, these aren't exactly the most

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 1>moralistic generation that we've ever produced. They were very sensible

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 1>and like rational minded and didn't take a great deal

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>of humanity into consideration when it came to profit maximization.

0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this is a segment we like to call Gen

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.800
<v Speaker 2>X speaks to millennials and Gen Z about boomers.

0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 3>That's right, you got that straight.

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.159
<v Speaker 2>But it's true. They also, you know, alter their diet

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:32.479
<v Speaker 2>and lighting to maximize their output. They don't move around,

0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 2>so they're obviously, you know what's going to happen when

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.600
<v Speaker 2>an animal is just sort of stuck in the small,

0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.000
<v Speaker 2>tiny thing. They're going to have no muscle. They have

0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.120
<v Speaker 2>muscle loss because they can't move around and do their thing,

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.240
<v Speaker 2>and they basically become what I described, which is these

0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.439
<v Speaker 2>living egg laying machines, which is exactly how the industrial

0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.919
<v Speaker 2>egg complex, if that's a term, wants it. But things

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.360
<v Speaker 2>are changing a little bit, and we're going to walk

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 2>you through so of You know, a lot of these

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.000
<v Speaker 2>are marketing terms, but some of them are legitimate terms

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 2>that the USDA allows them to use. In addition to

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>these great pictures that you see on your egg cartons

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.840
<v Speaker 2>of chickens, like, you know, smiling under the sunshine on

0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a rolling pastoral scene. They're allowed to do stuff like that,

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 2>but the words that they use are regulated to an extent.

0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.919
<v Speaker 2>And if you really, really really want to do your

0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.000
<v Speaker 2>due diligence, though, you got to know what all this

0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.520
<v Speaker 2>stuff means and then even do a little more investigation.

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, typical USDA type stuff. But let's take a break

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and then we'll get into cage free.

0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.919
<v Speaker 2>How about that, Let's get out of the cage.

0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.720
<v Speaker 3>If you want to know, and you're in luck, just listen.

0:19:46.560 --> 0:20:00.560
<v Speaker 4>Up to Suffu stuff you.

0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:09.760
<v Speaker 1>No, Okay, so we're talking cage free, and I think

0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.679
<v Speaker 1>I already let the cat out of the bag, although

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:17.000
<v Speaker 1>hopefully not in the chicken coop. Yeah, that cage free

0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.520
<v Speaker 1>actually does have some meaning like it Actually if you

0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.119
<v Speaker 1>look at it compared to the battery cage operations of

0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 1>your or actually I shouldn't say of yours, there's still

0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 1>most chickens in the United States at least are still

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 1>in battery cages. I think something like seventy percent, which

0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.119
<v Speaker 1>amounts to two hundred and thirty million hens are currently

0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:38.120
<v Speaker 1>in battery cages.

0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 3>So it's still going on, still happening.

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.119
<v Speaker 1>But if you if you compare the battery cage to

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 1>the cage free operation, it is a substantial difference, for sure.

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like the more we describe this stuff, there are

0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 2>levels of getting better, for sure, and k tree is better.

0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:58.960
<v Speaker 2>It is greater than it means. And this is a

0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.320
<v Speaker 2>direct quote from the US. It means the eggs must

0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.400
<v Speaker 2>be produced by hens housed in a way that allows

0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.399
<v Speaker 2>for not only unlimited access to food and water. And

0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.119
<v Speaker 2>you might think, well, duh, but they used to like

0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 2>keep food from hens, so different things would happen with

0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.080
<v Speaker 2>their production, and they're like, you can't do that at

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.119
<v Speaker 2>all anymore, and then the rest of it goes. But

0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.359
<v Speaker 2>unlike eggs from cage tins also provides them freedom to

0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.640
<v Speaker 2>roam during the laying cycle.

0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:29.639
<v Speaker 3>That's huge.

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.359
<v Speaker 2>But here's the deal is, there aren't any guidelines about

0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.439
<v Speaker 2>what that access to outdoors means. It doesn't say how

0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.879
<v Speaker 2>much space there needs to be, and so basically what

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.879
<v Speaker 2>you're still seeing is a big, long barn with a

0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.080
<v Speaker 2>bunch of laying hens packed inside there. They're just not

0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:50.240
<v Speaker 2>in those wire cages.

0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:53.240
<v Speaker 1>No, they have now instead of about an eight by

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.800
<v Speaker 1>eight square of space available to them like they do

0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 1>in the battery cages, typically a hen in a or

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 1>a cage free situation has about a ten and a

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:08.080
<v Speaker 1>half inch by eleven inch space available to them per bird.

0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:10.560
<v Speaker 1>And it's not like it's designated. That's what they can

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.760
<v Speaker 1>move around. At least they can move around these giant,

0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 1>giant barns. The problem is is there's tens of thousands

0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 1>of hens also in these barns and they just don't

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.199
<v Speaker 1>have that much room to move. If they had a

0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.280
<v Speaker 1>ton of willpower and they decided they were going to

0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.480
<v Speaker 1>go to point B, they could conceivably make their way there,

0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.119
<v Speaker 1>but it's not going to be easy, and it's not

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.160
<v Speaker 1>like they're just roaming around and they have a bunch

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:36.040
<v Speaker 1>of free space to move around in or do much in. Again,

0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 1>compared to the battery cages where they had no chance

0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.439
<v Speaker 1>of moving away from their little cage, it is a

0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.560
<v Speaker 1>huge improvement. But then when you see a picture of

0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.040
<v Speaker 1>what a cage free barn looks like, it's it gets

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:52.240
<v Speaker 1>a little depressing again.

0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know some of these egg producers are

0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 2>not the hens, but the operations, so there's only one

0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:04.600
<v Speaker 2>egg producer in the scenario. They do have some perches

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:07.359
<v Speaker 2>that are built up, and they do have some nesting

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:10.040
<v Speaker 2>areas so they can hop up there. They can stretch

0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 2>their wings, but they're not required to. That's not part

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of the USDA requirement. If you want to look for

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>requirements that you could look for a label from the

0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:24.040
<v Speaker 2>United Egg Producers. They have a different certification guideline for

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.439
<v Speaker 2>k tree that's a little more I guess open than

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the usdas are restrictive, I guess if you're a farmer.

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.280
<v Speaker 2>They must allow hens to exhibit natural behaviors that we

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.479
<v Speaker 2>talked about and include enrichments such as scratch areas, purchase,

0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:41.360
<v Speaker 2>and nests, so they have to have those, and then

0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.120
<v Speaker 2>they must have access to litter, and litter is just

0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.200
<v Speaker 2>like the stuff on the ground that they like to

0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:50.400
<v Speaker 2>roll around in. It's not like beer cans and old

0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:51.760
<v Speaker 2>batteries and stuff.

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Not the crying, ironized cody kind.

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.280
<v Speaker 2>They must have protection from predators and be able to

0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:02.680
<v Speaker 2>move through a barn in a manner that promotes bird welfare.

0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 2>So that's a little hazy, but that generally means not

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 2>as crowded. But I don't think that that even specifies

0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:11.879
<v Speaker 2>what that means.

0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:16.159
<v Speaker 1>No, and that is much better than the USDA standards.

0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.320
<v Speaker 1>And the United Egg Producers are an industry industry group

0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:23.199
<v Speaker 1>of like egg operators. Like I think there's maybe one

0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:27.320
<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty in the in the United States, which

0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.280
<v Speaker 1>is way less than there used to be.

0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:31.720
<v Speaker 2>So to produce like almost all the eggs, right.

0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, and we export a lot of them too. Surprisingly.

0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:39.240
<v Speaker 1>Uh So it's a it's a car, it's a cartel,

0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.919
<v Speaker 1>like a lobbying group basically for the egg producers.

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:44.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:48.000
<v Speaker 1>And you know, at the risk of sounding like suspicious

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:50.840
<v Speaker 1>of them, like I would guess that they created these

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.600
<v Speaker 1>standards to get ahead of this problem that was growing

0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:56.560
<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden and costing them money. So by

0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.919
<v Speaker 1>doing better than the USCA, you know, that's great. Like

0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:06.520
<v Speaker 1>their hens are are genuinely like, what's the word, what's

0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:11.040
<v Speaker 1>the opposite of suffering? Benefiting from that? But I think

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:13.919
<v Speaker 1>it makes me suspect, and actually I know from research

0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:17.119
<v Speaker 1>it can be much better than that, right, And a

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.720
<v Speaker 1>big one is density. It's a it's a huge part

0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.640
<v Speaker 1>of it. It's density, how like there should be much

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:25.639
<v Speaker 1>greater limits on how many hens you can have per barn.

0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:30.480
<v Speaker 1>And then also another one is even under these these better,

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>more stricter standards for hen welfare, their their lives are

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.639
<v Speaker 1>very much artificially controlled still because they're kept in this barn.

0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:42.639
<v Speaker 1>They're still in a barn. They don't go outside to

0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:45.959
<v Speaker 1>be cage free. You still don't go outside if your hen,

0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:50.880
<v Speaker 1>you spend your entire life in one single barn until

0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:53.840
<v Speaker 1>you stop producing enough eggs fast enough, and then they

0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:54.840
<v Speaker 1>turn you into pet food.

0:25:55.680 --> 0:26:00.760
<v Speaker 2>That's right, sometimes feeding yourself back to your felt chickens.

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:03.840
<v Speaker 2>I looked a little bit into what chicken feed is

0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:06.480
<v Speaker 2>mainly made of. And because I remember at the time

0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:09.639
<v Speaker 2>when I took this tour, someone said something about, you know,

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:14.720
<v Speaker 2>there's chicken parts in the chicken feed. This was someone

0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:18.240
<v Speaker 2>telling me this. I didn't find that in my research.

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:21.480
<v Speaker 2>But there has been a movement away from things like

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:25.359
<v Speaker 2>fish meal because fish meal is obviously the oceans are

0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:28.560
<v Speaker 2>being depleted too, to using fishes to feed chickens isn't

0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:31.000
<v Speaker 2>a great idea, and I think just a few years

0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 2>ago there was final approval to use and it sounds gross,

0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.960
<v Speaker 2>but like fly larvae, and you might think, like that's good.

0:26:39.320 --> 0:26:42.080
<v Speaker 2>That is good because that's what chickens would eat if

0:26:42.080 --> 0:26:44.720
<v Speaker 2>they were just roaming the countryside, they would eat things

0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 2>like that.

0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:50.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they're starting to be fed things they normally would.

0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 3>Eat otherwise, which is good.

0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:54.640
<v Speaker 1>Their food is still very much controlled and portioned in everything,

0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:59.280
<v Speaker 1>but they're starting to be fed things that more resemble

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:01.000
<v Speaker 1>their diet wars before or it was just whatever was

0:27:01.080 --> 0:27:03.359
<v Speaker 1>cheapest and most abundant that you could feed a chicken,

0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:07.120
<v Speaker 1>like soy and fish. That's yeah, that's not natural. And you,

0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:09.639
<v Speaker 1>as the person eating the egg, should be like, I

0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:12.480
<v Speaker 1>don't want an egg from a chicken that's been eating fish.

0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:13.040
<v Speaker 3>It's whole life.

0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:16.879
<v Speaker 1>Chickens don't eat fish. This egg probably tastes way different

0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 1>than it should, right, And that's another thing too. There's

0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:22.520
<v Speaker 1>a lot of health benefits that have been documented in

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:26.359
<v Speaker 1>eggs that come from well treated chickens. It seems to

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.360
<v Speaker 1>be that the better you treat a chicken, the healthier

0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:30.520
<v Speaker 1>the egg it produces.

0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Is you can just get a and you know, if

0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:36.120
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a friend that has a back ear chicken,

0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:40.120
<v Speaker 2>there's probably some local farmer's market where some fish fan

0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 2>will sell you their eggs and you need only look

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 2>at them from the outside at first, to what they

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 2>look like in the pan, to what they taste like.

0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:51.240
<v Speaker 2>It is a stark difference.

0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:53.919
<v Speaker 1>It just is yeah, totally, you eat one and you

0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:55.680
<v Speaker 1>can take on like five cops.

0:27:56.000 --> 0:28:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's that nutrient. These cage free chickens, whether they're

0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:08.359
<v Speaker 2>United Egg Producer Standard or just USDA standard, they still

0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:11.160
<v Speaker 2>have their beaks trimmed. When they're ten days old. They're

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:16.120
<v Speaker 2>still force molted. Molting is a natural process, but they

0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.560
<v Speaker 2>do something called force molting when and this is where

0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 2>they used to take away their feed entirely to force molting.

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Now they just withhold some feed to force the molting.

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:28.639
<v Speaker 2>It's when they shed those feathers and molt and that

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 2>extends their layer life by you know, it's pretty substantial.

0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:36.720
<v Speaker 2>It can be like twenty five to forty weeks. So

0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.680
<v Speaker 2>again they're they're ringing every last egg out of those chickens,

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:41.520
<v Speaker 2>k tree or not.

0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:46.320
<v Speaker 1>I saw that the forced molting is not actually in

0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:49.520
<v Speaker 1>and of itself harmful, and that it might actually be

0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:52.880
<v Speaker 1>beneficial for the chickens because they live their life indoors,

0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 1>and one of the ways that they do that is

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:58.600
<v Speaker 1>through adjusting the length of the light, the artificial light.

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 1>But the problem is they're withholding no, it's not naturally happening,

0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:06.880
<v Speaker 1>but it's not going to naturally happen during their lifetime anyway,

0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:09.000
<v Speaker 1>And it actually is good for them to go through

0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a molt, But they wouldn't without this induced or forced

0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>molting because they aren't. They aren't subjected to natural light.

0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:20.520
<v Speaker 1>They don't get natural light. It's all artificial. They spend

0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>their entire lives basically indoors, almost entirely cut off from

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:26.360
<v Speaker 1>natural light, if not entirely cut off from it.

0:29:26.520 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 2>See, I thought hens molt by being a hen.

0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:31.000
<v Speaker 4>No.

0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:35.640
<v Speaker 1>No, I think they take their cues from a shorter

0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 1>duration of days, and then they stop eating quite as much.

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Then they go through the molting process, stop laying eggs

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:44.360
<v Speaker 1>as frequently, and.

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:47.120
<v Speaker 2>Then that is what I'm saying.

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it does, but it's queued by changes in natural light.

0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:53.040
<v Speaker 1>And if they're not exposed to natural light, they're not

0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 1>going to undergo.

0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:54.520
<v Speaker 3>The mold.

0:29:55.840 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Rights. Yeah, but like justin Melissa's eggs, malt because they

0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:07.200
<v Speaker 2>like it can be the shorter day of the natural

0:30:07.280 --> 0:30:08.400
<v Speaker 2>light cycle of a year.

0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Right right, yeah, yeah, And that's a natural thing.

0:30:11.240 --> 0:30:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying, like they can induce it through artificial

0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 1>light changes an artificial light, and it's not necessarily bad

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 1>that they induce it artificially. It's probably better than just

0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:20.680
<v Speaker 1>not doing.

0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 3>It at all.

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay, I gotcha. Okay, I thought you were saying

0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 2>they don't molt normally.

0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:29.440
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, I would never say something like that.

0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Now we can move on. Those are hens that lay eggs.

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Now we can move on to hens that are raised

0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>for meat. They are called broilers in the industry, and

0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:45.800
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of the same deal. Ninety nine percent of

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.840
<v Speaker 2>American broiler chickens never see light in this country. They

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:52.880
<v Speaker 2>are in those from the moment they're born as little

0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:57.720
<v Speaker 2>chicki chicks. They are in a barn, and they live

0:30:57.800 --> 0:31:01.960
<v Speaker 2>about six weeks and they are they are pumped up

0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:05.400
<v Speaker 2>as fast as they can be pumped up to get

0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 2>the biggest breast meat possible. I think there was, Dave.

0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:13.160
<v Speaker 2>This is pretty startling. They found a calculation that if

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:16.800
<v Speaker 2>you sort of transferred their growth rate to what a

0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:19.840
<v Speaker 2>human baby would look like, it would be a three

0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:22.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty nine pound baby by their second birthday.

0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Like baby, hueie, yeah, that's baby, we are, right.

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:27.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 1>So the way that they did this is through basically

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:35.959
<v Speaker 1>selective breeding, selecting chickens that grow in their breast area.

0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:41.080
<v Speaker 1>But they've basically surpassed any any point where you would

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:44.959
<v Speaker 1>normally stop because it's now very harmful for the chicken.

0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:49.800
<v Speaker 1>These chickens that we eat, the broiler chickens not necessarily

0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 1>a whole chicken. It can also be like you know,

0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 1>like drumsticks or breasts or thighs or whatever, all that

0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:58.200
<v Speaker 1>comes from a broiler chicken. Any chicken you eat is

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:02.480
<v Speaker 1>a broiler chicken. These broiler chickens are usually selected for

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 1>their breasts, and their breasts are so heavy that they

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 1>can't really walk because their legs aren't developing the way

0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:10.080
<v Speaker 1>that they should. But then in addition to that, their

0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 1>legs can't develop the way they should because the breast

0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:15.880
<v Speaker 1>is so heavy, so they end up with metabolic diseases,

0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.040
<v Speaker 1>they end up with muscle atrophy, and they don't do

0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:23.840
<v Speaker 1>much of anything except eat and rest because that's basically

0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:25.360
<v Speaker 1>all they have the energy to do.

0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Yees, six weeks is their lifespan. Yeah, I'll just want

0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 2>to reiterate that.

0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 1>So over the six weeks, Yeah, they go from like

0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.760
<v Speaker 1>chicks to slaughtered adults in six weeks, So they're growing

0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 1>that fast. But they're also growing way bigger than any

0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:42.600
<v Speaker 1>normal chicken wood, right, any normal breed. So during that

0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 1>six weeks, they're stuck in this litter. If they're in

0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:50.120
<v Speaker 1>a situation where they have litter available to them, and

0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.640
<v Speaker 1>they're just pooping and peeing in this litter, and they're

0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:56.560
<v Speaker 1>not getting up enough to not get like blisters from

0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:59.800
<v Speaker 1>the ammonia in the litter, it's a problem in and

0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 1>of itself. Like that's how basically obese these these chickens are.

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:08.840
<v Speaker 1>That they cannot move much at all, and they end

0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 1>up getting sores from exposure to all the year in

0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:13.320
<v Speaker 1>there they're sitting in.

0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was the hardest part of that tour for me,

0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and the one where my buddy Barry and I actually

0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>left the building after And I'll go ahead, and we

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:25.320
<v Speaker 2>probably should have issued a trigger warning period, but hopefully

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the titled episode would scare off any like vegans who

0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:31.080
<v Speaker 2>really don't even want to hear about this. But trigger

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.520
<v Speaker 2>warning right here. One of the you know, and this

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>is what they do when one of the broilers or

0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:40.280
<v Speaker 2>any of the chickens are are injured or you know,

0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:45.360
<v Speaker 2>winged in some way that isn't I don't know. I'm

0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:48.920
<v Speaker 2>not gonna put I'm not gonna label what exactly is

0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:51.880
<v Speaker 2>wrong with the chicken when they pick it up by

0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.719
<v Speaker 2>the neck and sling it in a little circle real

0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:57.640
<v Speaker 2>quick to snap their neck and then throw it back

0:33:57.640 --> 0:33:59.960
<v Speaker 2>on the ground. But that's exactly what happened in front

0:33:59.920 --> 0:34:03.000
<v Speaker 2>of us when we saw a chicken that apparently wasn't

0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:05.880
<v Speaker 2>doing well. And the guy's literally in mid conversation, and

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 2>I know this is the job that they do, and

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't expect him to hold a funeral. But that's

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:13.799
<v Speaker 2>when Barry and I stepped out and we're like, we're

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:15.359
<v Speaker 2>going to be out here for the rest of the tour,

0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I can imagine, and I was about to start, Yeah,

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:23.399
<v Speaker 2>I had five cigarettes at the same time, so there's

0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:26.799
<v Speaker 2>this writer from the New Yorker named Michael Spencer who

0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.480
<v Speaker 2>went to a poultry farm and he wrote that there

0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:32.239
<v Speaker 2>must have been thirty thousand chickens sitting silently on the

0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:33.040
<v Speaker 2>floor in front of me.

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.160
<v Speaker 1>They didn't move, they didn't cluck. They were almost like

0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:39.799
<v Speaker 1>statues of chickens living in nearly total darkness. And they

0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:42.359
<v Speaker 1>would spend every minute of their six week lives that way.

0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:44.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's pretty sobering.

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.640
<v Speaker 1>And those are the brothers, those are the ones we eat, right,

0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:51.080
<v Speaker 1>So again, they're bread to grow this way, and it's

0:34:51.120 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 1>totally unnatural. Chickens don't normally get like that. And when

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.799
<v Speaker 1>they do interact with people, which is not obviously a

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:01.560
<v Speaker 1>requirement for a chicken to have good life, but it's

0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:05.920
<v Speaker 1>for what you just said. It's to harvest or kill

0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:08.960
<v Speaker 1>a sicker or just a sick chicken, or get the

0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 1>carcass of a dead chicken out of there. And if

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:16.439
<v Speaker 1>you want to see just how little humans, how little

0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:19.879
<v Speaker 1>of a role humans have in chicken farming today, there's

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:23.480
<v Speaker 1>a video that they found. It's actually like a trade

0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:26.200
<v Speaker 1>video that I think is kind of like to sell

0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:30.200
<v Speaker 1>all of these different machines. It's called inside the million

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:35.719
<v Speaker 1>dollar chicken farm, Amazing modern chicks, poultry farming technology. It's

0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 1>on YouTube and it's like sixteen minutes long. I didn't

0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:39.960
<v Speaker 1>watch it with the volume, so I don't know if

0:35:40.000 --> 0:35:43.000
<v Speaker 1>there's narration, but if you watch it on mute, it's

0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:47.719
<v Speaker 1>just it's mesmerizing. And it's also like, I really hope

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:49.759
<v Speaker 1>humans don't end up like this in the next like

0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:54.320
<v Speaker 1>two hundred years, you know, like it's really really weird

0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:58.359
<v Speaker 1>and unsettling, but then also at the same time deeply fascinating.

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So the answer then would be free range is

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:08.640
<v Speaker 2>seemingly the solution. So what does that mean. We talked

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:12.279
<v Speaker 2>about cage free and what that means for the USDA.

0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Any egg or poultry product that can be classified as

0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:19.480
<v Speaker 2>free range means the housing for the birds must provide

0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:24.080
<v Speaker 2>continuous free access to the outside through their normal growing cycle.

0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:27.000
<v Speaker 2>And again, this is sort of like that story when

0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:29.319
<v Speaker 2>the guy said it just means there's a door. They

0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:31.120
<v Speaker 2>don't go out there because their food and water is

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 2>in ear DA doesn't say how big this door has

0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to be, where it has to be placed. They don't

0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.400
<v Speaker 2>say they don't require them to go outside, like they

0:36:43.400 --> 0:36:46.520
<v Speaker 2>don't shuttle them outside every day for some sunlight, like

0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 2>you would like in a prison yard or something like that.

0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>All that matters is that they have continuous access. That

0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:57.400
<v Speaker 2>door stays accessible and open. And so you've got your

0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:00.600
<v Speaker 2>big barn again, you've got your small door, and if

0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:02.759
<v Speaker 2>they want to go outside, they can. But then even

0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:05.800
<v Speaker 2>if they do go outside, it doesn't say like and

0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.640
<v Speaker 2>you got to have this much area for this many

0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:11.480
<v Speaker 2>chickens to roam around if they want to. It can

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>be anything. It can be a pretty small little area

0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:16.120
<v Speaker 2>and it still qualifies as outside.

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:22.640
<v Speaker 1>So those huge dark barns with artificial light filled with

0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:26.440
<v Speaker 1>tens of thousands of chickens, if you popped a hole

0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 1>the size of a breadplate into the wall of that barn,

0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.400
<v Speaker 1>you could call your operation a free range chicken operation.

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:37.359
<v Speaker 3>Now that's it.

0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't need to be fair, But technically you're right.

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And like, yes, it is technical that I'm right.

0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 1>But from the research into just how how much of

0:37:50.680 --> 0:37:54.320
<v Speaker 1>a finger the USDA has on what constitutes free range

0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:59.160
<v Speaker 1>and who meets those requirements, it's entirely possible that somebody's

0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:00.759
<v Speaker 1>just cut a little hole side of the barn and

0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:03.880
<v Speaker 1>now is saying free range and could argue that if

0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.440
<v Speaker 1>an inspector did come out and argued it with them,

0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.840
<v Speaker 1>they would probably the egg producer would probably win that

0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:12.200
<v Speaker 1>argument in court, right.

0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the doors I saw were bigger, and chickens

0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:17.279
<v Speaker 2>could easily fit like more than one chicken, like they

0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 2>were sizable. But again, the whole point is their food

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and water is inside, and so chickens are, generally, and

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.200
<v Speaker 2>especially when they're still pretty crowded in there, they're still

0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:31.520
<v Speaker 2>gonna stay where their food and water is. Generally, it's

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:33.680
<v Speaker 2>not like they're saying, hey, we're gonna put the water out,

0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:36.600
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna have outdoor class today. Guys, we're gonna put

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the water in the food outside. That'll really encourage you

0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:41.720
<v Speaker 2>to go outside. They don't care if they go outside

0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:42.000
<v Speaker 2>or not.

0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:47.239
<v Speaker 1>So we should say the EU has much better standards

0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 1>for what constitutes free range. They've been working at free

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.719
<v Speaker 1>range and cage free stuff since like ninety nine and

0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:58.160
<v Speaker 1>have really made some big gain since then. But then

0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.760
<v Speaker 1>even in the United States, Chuck, there's plenty of people

0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:05.480
<v Speaker 1>like Justin who are saying, like, no, I actually want

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:08.759
<v Speaker 1>my chickens to be free range, like you would think

0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:13.200
<v Speaker 1>free range actually is, and so there's there's there's another

0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:17.680
<v Speaker 1>kind of designation called pasture raised, which people tend to

0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.600
<v Speaker 1>use when they're to kind of separate themselves from free range,

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:22.239
<v Speaker 1>because I think enough people have picked up on the

0:39:22.239 --> 0:39:26.120
<v Speaker 1>fact that free range is kind of meaningless, so pasture

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:30.640
<v Speaker 1>rage seems to be more more legitimate or most people

0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:35.640
<v Speaker 1>who do legitimately raise chickens outdoors would call them pasture raised.

0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:38.800
<v Speaker 1>So they're like wheeling them around from place to place.

0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:41.040
<v Speaker 1>They have an enclosure that they can go to and

0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 1>inclement weather, but for the most most of their lives,

0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:48.960
<v Speaker 1>they're spending their time outdoors doing what chickens do, given

0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:55.840
<v Speaker 1>plenty of space for being chickens, and that's typically pasture raised. Unfortunately,

0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.000
<v Speaker 1>as far as the usd IS can, the USDA is

0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:02.240
<v Speaker 1>considered sure raised is the same thing as free range.

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:05.239
<v Speaker 1>So again, if you have a shed that has all

0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 1>these chickens and you cut a hole on the side,

0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:09.920
<v Speaker 1>you can now call that pasture raise too if you want.

0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can't. And if you're saying, well, if you're

0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:17.680
<v Speaker 2>saying that some places use pasture rage raised or raged, uh,

0:40:18.600 --> 0:40:19.680
<v Speaker 2>that'd be quite a party.

0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:23.520
<v Speaker 3>It's like loosing your pasture if.

0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.800
<v Speaker 2>You're saying that some farmers are doing it right, smaller

0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:29.839
<v Speaker 2>operations and when they say pasture raise, they mean it.

0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:32.760
<v Speaker 2>But technically the U State DA doesn't make a distinction.

0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:35.080
<v Speaker 2>What am I to do. That's where you have to

0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:38.480
<v Speaker 2>like do your homework. You can't just make if you

0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:41.800
<v Speaker 2>want to, you if you if it matters to you,

0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:45.360
<v Speaker 2>you got to look up this farm and see what

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:47.880
<v Speaker 2>they're doing. And a lot of times these smaller farms

0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>will say, hey, come on out if you care, and

0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:53.440
<v Speaker 2>we'll show you our operation because we're proud of it,

0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>like you can. They generally have websites where you can

0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's all there, you know. I think the USDA,

0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:03.520
<v Speaker 2>even tom not demands but requires a I demand a

0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:03.960
<v Speaker 2>u URL.

0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 3>They take their shoe off and bang it on the desk.

0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:09.480
<v Speaker 2>They require a URL where you can look this stuff

0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:10.279
<v Speaker 2>up if you want to.

0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:11.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:14.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the USA is all over that, which is good

0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:17.880
<v Speaker 1>because I mean, we've got third party certification who you know,

0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:20.799
<v Speaker 1>who could be illegitimate. But I think that like the

0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:24.480
<v Speaker 1>industry would police third party certifiers because they don't want

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:29.120
<v Speaker 1>to like give away their money unnecessarily because getting getting

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:33.759
<v Speaker 1>things like pasture raised or free range like these are

0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:37.520
<v Speaker 1>these are like it's not required, you can opt to

0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:40.759
<v Speaker 1>have it done, to be certified like that, but you're

0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:43.600
<v Speaker 1>gonna pay for it. So if we had like phony

0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:47.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, certifiers running around, I guess yeah, the big

0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:49.239
<v Speaker 1>producers will probably co opt it and use it to

0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:53.160
<v Speaker 1>their gain. But luckily there are some really legitimate third

0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:55.800
<v Speaker 1>party certifiers. And the one that seems to have bubbled

0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:58.080
<v Speaker 1>at the top as far as I can tell, is

0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:02.440
<v Speaker 1>called Humane Farm Animal Care. A fact I think is

0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:04.879
<v Speaker 1>the way that you say the abbreviation.

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think that's a good cliffhanger. Okay, yeah, and

0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:12.560
<v Speaker 2>let's take our final break and we'll talk about them

0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and generally how the USDA determines if it qualifies as

0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:19.680
<v Speaker 2>K three or free range. To begin with, if.

0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:23.360
<v Speaker 4>You want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen

0:42:23.560 --> 0:42:35.239
<v Speaker 4>up to Jucher Suffus stuffution No.

0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:47.239
<v Speaker 2>All right, So you mentioned a couple of important things

0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:51.200
<v Speaker 2>before the break. One is that if you want these certifications,

0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:55.239
<v Speaker 2>it is an like egg grating stuff like that you see,

0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:58.040
<v Speaker 2>like Grade A eggs. It is a voluntary thing you

0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:01.319
<v Speaker 2>have to pay for you can you know you do

0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it so you can put it on your label so

0:43:02.960 --> 0:43:06.040
<v Speaker 2>you can charge more obviously mm hm. And you know,

0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:08.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe you care about delivering a higher quality egg. Who knows,

0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:15.200
<v Speaker 2>but the DA doesn't like if it's certified organic. They're

0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:18.319
<v Speaker 2>not out there doing that certification. That is completely done

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:22.880
<v Speaker 2>by USDA approved certification bodies, and those seem to be

0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 2>a little more feed on the ground. As far as

0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:31.600
<v Speaker 2>actually going to farms and looking at them, the USDA

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:36.200
<v Speaker 2>does not require and they can't there are too many,

0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:37.680
<v Speaker 2>you know that. I don't think they even had the

0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:40.520
<v Speaker 2>staffing to do that if they wanted to go out

0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and actually photograph arms and check it out. If you

0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:46.719
<v Speaker 2>want that descriptor and label, you have to send in

0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:50.440
<v Speaker 2>a detailed written description explaining how it meets to standards,

0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:53.799
<v Speaker 2>along with an affidavit that's signed that it's not false

0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:57.920
<v Speaker 2>or misleading. But that's kind of it, Like that's all

0:43:57.960 --> 0:43:58.759
<v Speaker 2>the proof they need.

0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:02.440
<v Speaker 1>That's so that's for free range, Yes, cage free they

0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:05.040
<v Speaker 1>take way more seriously. That's where they do have inspectors

0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:07.880
<v Speaker 1>go out and check so like if it says cage

0:44:07.880 --> 0:44:11.920
<v Speaker 1>free has been verified that this meets those cage free standards,

0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:14.040
<v Speaker 1>so that's a good thing. That's another reason why KG

0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:16.680
<v Speaker 1>free is a big step up. But yeah, free ranges.

0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:22.719
<v Speaker 1>You say, yes, my operation is free range under USDA standards.

0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:24.520
<v Speaker 3>No, I'm not lying, And the.

0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:28.160
<v Speaker 1>Usa DA says, good enough, you can put free range

0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:29.000
<v Speaker 1>on your labels.

0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah they did. I think they found a study

0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:36.520
<v Speaker 2>from that Animal Welfare Institute that examined records from the

0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:41.799
<v Speaker 2>FSIS and they found that only one producer out of

0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:46.080
<v Speaker 2>one hundred actually submitted photos of the barn showing the

0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:49.520
<v Speaker 2>access like I think eighty three out of thee hundred

0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:56.360
<v Speaker 2>provided evidence I guess not photographic evidence, but affidavits and

0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:59.759
<v Speaker 2>third party kind of certifications, and then seventeen of them

0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:04.839
<v Speaker 2>just had zero substantiation at all, and that they dug

0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:07.000
<v Speaker 2>in a little bit and found in forty four cases

0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:11.120
<v Speaker 2>they had no detailed written description at all, which is

0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:12.400
<v Speaker 2>supposedly what's required.

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:15.760
<v Speaker 1>But they still got approval from the USDA to label

0:45:15.800 --> 0:45:17.400
<v Speaker 1>their stuff as free range.

0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to say the words rubber stamp, but

0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:22.200
<v Speaker 2>it seems like it might be that way for sure.

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:26.359
<v Speaker 1>And again, just buyer beware. Free range is synonymous as

0:45:26.360 --> 0:45:29.720
<v Speaker 1>far as the USDA is concerned with free roaming pasture

0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 1>fed pasture, grown pasture raised and meadow raised, and again,

0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:36.799
<v Speaker 1>just want to drive this home. It means that there's

0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:39.160
<v Speaker 1>a hole in the side of this giant barn filled

0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:41.600
<v Speaker 1>with tens of thousands of chickens who may or may

0:45:41.640 --> 0:45:43.440
<v Speaker 1>not be going in or out of that hole on

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.600
<v Speaker 1>any day or if ever, during their entire lives. And

0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:48.200
<v Speaker 1>on the other side of that it might just be

0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:52.279
<v Speaker 1>a concrete pad, is what they could be free ranging on. Like,

0:45:52.320 --> 0:45:54.239
<v Speaker 1>that's it as far as the USDA is concerned. So

0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:57.800
<v Speaker 1>we have a long way to go with free range,

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.280
<v Speaker 1>in particular because Chuck, like you, me and basically anyone

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:06.200
<v Speaker 1>listening to this podcast has a totally different conception of

0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:09.200
<v Speaker 1>what free range means, right. And there was a survey

0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:11.640
<v Speaker 1>that was done again by the Animal Welfare Institute. They

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:14.400
<v Speaker 1>did it in twenty fifteen, and they went out to people,

0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:16.840
<v Speaker 1>just every day people and said, hey, what do you

0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:21.640
<v Speaker 1>think free range should should entail? And they came back

0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:22.960
<v Speaker 1>with some pretty interesting stuff.

0:46:23.600 --> 0:46:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they you know, as you would expect, sixty five

0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:29.640
<v Speaker 2>percent of people thought that free range should mean that

0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:31.719
<v Speaker 2>there's enough space outside for every bird to be out

0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:35.000
<v Speaker 2>during the day, during daylight hours if they want to be,

0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:38.000
<v Speaker 2>and sixty two percent of consumers said they thought the

0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:40.840
<v Speaker 2>outdoor area should be at least partially covered by grass.

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Like the expectation from consumers is, well, you put a

0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:49.040
<v Speaker 2>picture on your cart and of a hen rolling around

0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:53.280
<v Speaker 2>this beautiful pastoral scene. So that's kind of what I expect.

0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:55.759
<v Speaker 2>Or am I just being hoodwinked? And the answer is

0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:56.960
<v Speaker 2>you're being hoodwinked.

0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:59.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, to be fair, these are the same people that

0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:03.600
<v Speaker 1>believe that those barbecue signs where a pig is actually

0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.800
<v Speaker 1>cooking the barbecue, they think that's going on as well.

0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:09.640
<v Speaker 3>So we've got to really kind of keep this.

0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I never understood that one those are so disturbing, it

0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:19.279
<v Speaker 2>really is. This is my brother Lou. We were eating him.

0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:20.719
<v Speaker 3>Later we had a falling out.

0:47:21.760 --> 0:47:25.359
<v Speaker 2>Uh So, like I said, if you're if this all

0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.440
<v Speaker 2>of this is just frustrating and confusing, all you have

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:32.400
<v Speaker 2>to do is do a little leg work or you know,

0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:35.280
<v Speaker 2>obviously go to those local farmers' markets because that's where

0:47:35.680 --> 0:47:37.520
<v Speaker 2>that's where you're really gett into good stuff and talk

0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:39.640
<v Speaker 2>to them. I guarantee you that fish fan is going

0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:41.319
<v Speaker 2>to invite you out to their farm to check out

0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:44.440
<v Speaker 2>what's going on. Yeah, but you might walk away with

0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:46.520
<v Speaker 2>more than eggs. You know what I'm saying, that's right,

0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:52.279
<v Speaker 2>that'd be a nice trip. So it literally amia. So

0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:54.359
<v Speaker 2>if you do want to figure.

0:47:54.040 --> 0:47:58.240
<v Speaker 1>Out like where to get good eggs or what eggs

0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:01.280
<v Speaker 1>you can trust, and because it's because you don't trust

0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 1>a fish fan, there are organizations that say like, let's

0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.000
<v Speaker 1>not get fish fans involved in this at all, let's

0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:11.080
<v Speaker 1>keep them at bay, and everyone says, yes, agreed, agreed,

0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:12.680
<v Speaker 1>How can we move forward without the fishes?

0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:14.160
<v Speaker 2>To keep them on the couch they belong.

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:20.720
<v Speaker 1>So again, the humane farm animal care fact, they they

0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:23.480
<v Speaker 1>from what I can tell, at least in the United States,

0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:26.839
<v Speaker 1>they definitely are legit. And they've come up with some

0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:32.200
<v Speaker 1>definitions for their certified humane labels, so that's certified humane

0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:36.160
<v Speaker 1>on a like a poultry or some sort of food product.

0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:40.239
<v Speaker 1>It actually has met some really good standards. And they

0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:44.960
<v Speaker 1>were basically like the USDA's definition of free range and

0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:48.800
<v Speaker 1>pasture raised are so terrible. We're just going to create

0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:51.120
<v Speaker 1>our own definitions. And they did so, they created their

0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:55.360
<v Speaker 1>own standards and to be certified humane free range or

0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:59.680
<v Speaker 1>certified humane pasture raised that they the producers have to

0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:01.400
<v Speaker 1>meet them standards and they're good ones.

0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're really good, or you know, comparatively speaking. At

0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.920
<v Speaker 2>least for free range, the hens must be outside for

0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.960
<v Speaker 2>at least six hours a day, weather permitting, obviously, and

0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:13.799
<v Speaker 2>that that outdoor space must have a minimum of two

0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:17.040
<v Speaker 2>square feet for every bird. And again that doesn't sound

0:49:17.080 --> 0:49:20.239
<v Speaker 2>like much and it's not, but the difference between being

0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.240
<v Speaker 2>able to move around freely when you have two square

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:25.759
<v Speaker 2>feet per bird and when you have an iPad per

0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:29.440
<v Speaker 2>bird is pretty huge, Like you can actually move around

0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's not just like being at the worst party

0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:36.600
<v Speaker 2>you've ever been to. Pasture Rays Certified humane is even

0:49:36.600 --> 0:49:39.440
<v Speaker 2>better than that. The hens must be outdoors year round

0:49:40.080 --> 0:49:42.120
<v Speaker 2>with mobile or fixed housing where the hens can nest

0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:45.160
<v Speaker 2>or rest for the night, get out about weather, and

0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:50.040
<v Speaker 2>they are. They get about one hundred and eight square

0:49:50.080 --> 0:49:54.200
<v Speaker 2>feet per bird, one thousand birds for two point five acres.

0:49:54.400 --> 0:49:56.160
<v Speaker 3>A bird doesn't even know what to do with that

0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:56.920
<v Speaker 3>much space.

0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:00.439
<v Speaker 2>No, they're like, hey, can I build a a wing

0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:01.680
<v Speaker 2>onto my little in house?

0:50:01.920 --> 0:50:04.120
<v Speaker 3>That's right, and Chuck.

0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:06.920
<v Speaker 1>One of the big things that they're doing at HAFAC

0:50:07.200 --> 0:50:13.880
<v Speaker 1>is they employ veterinarians, people with advanced degrees and animal studies.

0:50:14.480 --> 0:50:16.600
<v Speaker 1>Those are the people that go out and visit these

0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.279
<v Speaker 1>farms to certify them, people who know what they're talking about,

0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:21.200
<v Speaker 1>people who are not going to be bought off, people

0:50:21.239 --> 0:50:25.600
<v Speaker 1>with the animal's welfare in mind, to verify that everybody's

0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:28.759
<v Speaker 1>meeting these standards before they get that certification.

0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:30.000
<v Speaker 3>So that's a good one.

0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:31.840
<v Speaker 1>There are plenty of other ones out there too, but

0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:35.640
<v Speaker 1>that's just based on our research and from what Dave

0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.680
<v Speaker 1>came up with too. It's like, that's that's a good

0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:41.040
<v Speaker 1>one to start with. But it's like you said, do

0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:41.720
<v Speaker 1>your homework.

0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:43.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, it doesn't take long either. It's not like

0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.560
<v Speaker 2>you've got to invest hours and hours into this chicken research. Like, right,

0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I guarantee you, wherever you live, you can find some

0:50:50.760 --> 0:50:54.240
<v Speaker 2>pretty good options with you know, fifteen minutes of research

0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:55.839
<v Speaker 2>online that's right near you.

0:50:56.160 --> 0:50:59.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so there you have it. We just need to

0:50:59.560 --> 0:50:59.920
<v Speaker 3>get on the.

0:51:01.520 --> 0:51:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Increase to basically say no, they have to spend a

0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:07.000
<v Speaker 1>certain amount of time outdoors to be free range, and

0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.120
<v Speaker 1>then we'll go from there, because the USA will probably

0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:13.279
<v Speaker 1>say fifteen minutes to start. Yeah, if you want to

0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:17.240
<v Speaker 1>know more about free range chickens and cage free eggs,

0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:19.200
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of stuff out there that.

0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:21.120
<v Speaker 3>You can read, and we hope that you will.

0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:23.520
<v Speaker 1>And since I said we hope that you will, it's

0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:24.320
<v Speaker 1>time for a listener.

0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:24.520
<v Speaker 3>Maiw.

0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:29.960
<v Speaker 2>That's right. This one is called egg on Chuck's face

0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.360
<v Speaker 2>because I've misspoken a big way on our National Parks episode.

0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:38.000
<v Speaker 2>When I touted disperse camping wherever you want national parks,

0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:42.640
<v Speaker 2>I meant I was thinking of national forests. Oh, that's

0:51:42.680 --> 0:51:45.480
<v Speaker 2>where you can do disperse camping wherever you want. And

0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:48.600
<v Speaker 2>a boy, I said it a bunch, So you can't

0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:52.520
<v Speaker 2>camp anywhere you want national parks, okay, And I feel

0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:54.440
<v Speaker 2>terrible for that being out there so much that we

0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.680
<v Speaker 2>may even have to edit that. But greetings from your

0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:01.520
<v Speaker 2>friend a national park ranger. Your episode of National Parks

0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:03.520
<v Speaker 2>is excellent, and we heard from quite a few park rangers.

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.200
<v Speaker 2>By the way, I like to address a statement made

0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:09.240
<v Speaker 2>by Chuck. Some national parks may still allow to purse camping.

0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:13.280
<v Speaker 2>It's commonly allowed in national forests. Though parks and national

0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:17.360
<v Speaker 2>forests are similar but have different missions and are therefore

0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:21.520
<v Speaker 2>managed differently, National parks tend to regulate recreation a little

0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.680
<v Speaker 2>more strictly. In fact, many national parks now permit systems

0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:28.600
<v Speaker 2>in place for backpackers. Yeah, that's very, very true, and

0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:32.560
<v Speaker 2>those who successfully acquire permits even then are often restricted

0:52:32.600 --> 0:52:36.360
<v Speaker 2>to camping and designated backcountry camp sites. This prevents overcrowding

0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and popular destinations, which lessens the amount of abandoned gear,

0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:43.560
<v Speaker 2>garbage and food scraps and heavily left behind by certain visitors.

0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:47.719
<v Speaker 2>Certain visitors wanted to address this because though regulating where

0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:50.080
<v Speaker 2>people camp and how many people can camp in a

0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:53.360
<v Speaker 2>certain area may seem extreme to some, helps preserve the

0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:57.520
<v Speaker 2>wilderness character and solitude so many visitors are seeking when

0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:01.719
<v Speaker 2>they visit a national park. Only visitors who disperse camp

0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:04.560
<v Speaker 2>in a park that requires a designated campsite and or

0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:08.440
<v Speaker 2>permit may be subject to fines. That's very important for

0:53:08.480 --> 0:53:11.160
<v Speaker 2>all visitors to research regulations for any park for US

0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:15.200
<v Speaker 2>or wilderness that they're visiting. Happy hiking and that is

0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:19.799
<v Speaker 2>from our no named park ranger. Park ranger wish to

0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:22.120
<v Speaker 2>remain anonymous, which is we're always happy to do.

0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, anonymous park ranger. Happy hiking to you as well.

0:53:26.360 --> 0:53:28.439
<v Speaker 2>That's right, And I even had one park ranger say,

0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.720
<v Speaker 2>don't make fun of our green shorts, And to be clear,

0:53:33.239 --> 0:53:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think those shorts are the same color as

0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:38.800
<v Speaker 2>those trucks, A really color I was really making fun of. Okay,

0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:41.520
<v Speaker 2>maybe they are, but I don't know if there's a

0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:43.200
<v Speaker 2>if you could even make a fabric that.

0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:48.000
<v Speaker 3>Color, right, they just kind of appear.

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:49.600
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't adhere to textiles.

0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:54.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you very much again, anonymous park Ranger, into

0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:58.160
<v Speaker 1>all the park rangers and everybody who rode into correct Chuck, who,

0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:01.439
<v Speaker 1>by the way, took it with so wait to go, Chuck.

0:54:01.920 --> 0:54:03.840
<v Speaker 1>If you want to get in touch with this via email,

0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:07.319
<v Speaker 1>like your friendly anonymous park ranger did, you can send

0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:12.920
<v Speaker 1>it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:16.120
<v Speaker 4>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:54:16.600 --> 0:54:19.799
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.