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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's me Josh, and for this week's select,

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Speaker 1: I've chosen our episode on free range and cage free.

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Speaker 1: What do they mean? Do they mean anything? Turns out

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Speaker 1: they do mean something, but not what you'd think. This

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Speaker 1: is starting to get kind of tough to follow, so

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Speaker 1: I say, just listen to the episode. But this one

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Speaker 1: changed my mind about a lot of stuff, and I

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Speaker 1: hope it opens your eyes too.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 1: Chuck in it. Just something is going on with Chuck.

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Speaker 1: I'm okay so far, but Jerry's not here because she

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Speaker 1: turned into the Chicken Lady and his in treatment.

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Speaker 3: For that.

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Speaker 2: Doing the chicken dance.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember the Chicken Lady from Kids in the Hall?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I was referencing the rest of the development. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but you're taking it back even further to the great,

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Speaker 2: great Kids in the Hall.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I can just sit here and quote Kids in the

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Speaker 1: Hall one liners all day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I love those guys.

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Speaker 1: So that's not what we're here to do, though, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: Settle down, settle down. We're going away from the Kids

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Speaker 1: in the Hall.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And since you mentioned that, what we're also not

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Speaker 2: here to do is shame anybody or make anyone feel bad,

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Speaker 2: or to tell anyone how to live their life and

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Speaker 2: eat their breakfast. But we're here to arm you with

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Speaker 2: information on this one about And I'm not surprised you

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Speaker 2: picked this one, but I just thought since I had

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Speaker 2: a somewhat scarring experience any commercial chicken farming industry. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: for those of you listening that don't know, this, one

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Speaker 2: of my last real person jobs before this job many

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Speaker 2: years ago, as I worked for a software company that

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Speaker 2: designed software for commercial chicken operations to better track how

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Speaker 2: they lay eggs and how they gain weight, and how

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Speaker 2: you're feeding them and kind of everything how they're killed.

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Speaker 2: And I hated that job. It was sole killing and

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Speaker 2: I never understood it. I never invested in it, and

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Speaker 2: as far as understanding the software, and I was in

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Speaker 2: tech support, and so I was terrible at it. But

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Speaker 2: my friends ran the company and eventually they fired me

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Speaker 2: because I was so bad at it. Wow, And that's

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Speaker 2: the best thing that ever happened to me, because that

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Speaker 2: led directly to getting this job.

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Speaker 1: It's like Garth Brooks said, some of God's greatest gifts

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Speaker 1: are unanswered prayers. All right, sure, you know made your

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Speaker 1: prayer to be good at your chicken killing software job

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Speaker 1: was unanswered, and instead an even better prayer that you

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Speaker 1: didn't even know you had was answered.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have that prayer. I didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: good at that job.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so this is like all this is probably

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Speaker 1: pretty well known to you because this is we've been

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Speaker 1: doing this kind of stuff to chickens for a good

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Speaker 1: seventy years by now.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know the you know, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 2: some about factory farming. Finally we've I don't think we've

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Speaker 2: dodged it, but people have, you know, long said hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: can you get into this? And you know, we're not

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Speaker 2: touching cattle or swine. We're just starting dipping our toe

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Speaker 2: into it with poultry. Dipping our beaks, dipping our beaks

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Speaker 2: are untrimmed beaks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can peck you till the cows come home,

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Speaker 1: which is something that happens on the farm.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So let's enough dancing around, Chuck. We're talking about today,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily factory farming, although like you said, we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about it. We're gonna talk about those labels

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Speaker 1: that you see on your eggs or on your chicken,

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Speaker 1: usually cage free or free range or something along those

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Speaker 1: lines and other it means anything. But one of the

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Speaker 1: great successes of the last probably five six, maybe even

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Speaker 1: ten years or longer, came very quietly out of the

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Speaker 1: effective altruism community.

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Speaker 3: Chuck, oh, really yeah.

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Speaker 1: A group of effective altruists said, you know, we're always

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Speaker 1: looking to maximize our charitable contributions. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: chickens out there that are not being treated very well. Supposedly,

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Speaker 1: there's seven point six billion egg laying hens alone worldwide

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Speaker 1: at any given time, almost eight billion, So if you

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Speaker 1: could improve the lives of them even by a little bit,

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Speaker 1: you would really be reducing a massive amount of suffering.

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Speaker 1: So they got three million dollars together and like Laser,

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Speaker 1: focused it on advocacy, lobbying, getting legislation put through, and

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Speaker 1: then most of all, pressuring really really big companies. They

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Speaker 1: went after some whales to commit to going one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent cage free eggs within a very short period of time,

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Speaker 1: sometimes twenty twenty four, sometimes twenty thirty. But all of

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Speaker 1: these huge companies, everybody from dan Own to Burger King,

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Speaker 1: to McDonald's, to Whole Foods, not surprisingly but also like

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Speaker 1: Dollar General, all of them have signed a pledge that says,

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Speaker 1: all of the eggs that our customers buy, whether it's

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Speaker 1: in prepared food or eggs you buy in the store,

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Speaker 1: are going to be one hundred percent cage free eggs

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Speaker 1: within the next few years. And they did it with

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Speaker 1: like three million dollars and a lot of elbow grease.

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Speaker 2: I love it. I think all those companies probably said,

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Speaker 2: all right, all right, if they're cheese, if they're KG

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Speaker 2: free eggs out there, will use them, stop hassling me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what the Burger King said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy that big uh Yeah, but he said

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Speaker 2: it with his mind, right, yeah, because his mouth doesn't move.

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Speaker 3: But it was a big deal.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that they got that, that that's happening.

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Speaker 3: It's a big deal. And it's one of those things.

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Speaker 1: Where if you scratch beneath the surface, it's not an

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Speaker 1: intended pun, but if you scratch beneath the surface, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of these terms and phrases that the USDA

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Speaker 1: likes to bandy about, things like cage free and things

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Speaker 1: like free range and stuff like that, it's often really disappointing.

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Speaker 1: But that's one of the things about cage free is

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Speaker 1: that it is an actual substantial increase in the welfare

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Speaker 1: and quality of life for egg laying chickens in the

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Speaker 1: in the United States.

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Speaker 3: It's a big, big deal.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that they're in these amazing conditions all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden with cage free, it's that they're in

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Speaker 1: such poor conditions otherwise that this is a huge improvement

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Speaker 1: for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, a lot of people

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Speaker 2: will agree even k free isn't all it's cracked up

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of like chicken based idioms that we use.

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Speaker 1: There's suddenly coming to the I hadn't noticed.

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Speaker 2: When I worked with that company. They made everybody at

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Speaker 2: one point, even if you didn't do like project management

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Speaker 2: where you had to go to the farms, they made

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Speaker 2: us all go to the farms and tech support at

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Speaker 2: one point. And I know I've told the story before,

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Speaker 2: but it was a pretty awful experience, and it smells

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Speaker 2: really really bad. It smells so bad that me and

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Speaker 2: my one friend that I worked with, Barry, were like,

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Speaker 2: did sort of the silence of the Lamb's trick with

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Speaker 2: dabbing some like menthol on our upper lip, under our nostrils,

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Speaker 2: just so we could walk through these things. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I think they thought it would benefit us just sort

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Speaker 2: of just see boots on the ground. What happened. I

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Speaker 2: was like, I appreciate the feel trip, but it did

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Speaker 2: not benefit me in any way except hearing things like

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Speaker 2: oh myn cage or pre range just means there's a

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Speaker 2: door open. They don't even use it. And I heard

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Speaker 2: this back then, I was like, oh my gosh, is

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Speaker 2: that true. And as it turns out, as we'll see,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we shouldn't confused free range with cage free.

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Speaker 1: They're two different things. We'll describe them both. But yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so cage free is a huge improvement. Free range is

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Speaker 1: as bad as you'd expect it to be because it's

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Speaker 1: coming from the USDA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess let's talk about let's briefly, and

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Speaker 2: big thanks to Dave Ruse for helping us out with

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Speaker 2: this one. But Dave starts out with a little bit

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Speaker 2: of history, and I think that's a good place to

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Speaker 2: start because you don't have to look very far back

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Speaker 2: in this country. It seems like a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: But the nineteen forties isn't that long ago in the

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Speaker 2: lifespan of America. And back then they were still like

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Speaker 2: feeding America their eggs or its eggs. I don't even

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Speaker 2: know what America is with backyard chickens. Basically, they were

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Speaker 2: big farms, of course, but they weren't like these big,

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Speaker 2: massive battery cages that we see today. They were hens

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Speaker 2: living outdoors, generally on farms, laid about one hundred eggs

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Speaker 2: a year, and then after a few years, when they

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Speaker 2: quit laying eggs, then they would be used for meat.

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Speaker 3: They'd turn into Sunday dinner they would.

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Speaker 2: And these days, starting in like the fifties, things became

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Speaker 2: a little more industrialized and mechanized, and that's when battery

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Speaker 2: cages came into play, which is the wire cage that

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Speaker 2: you might like. If you have friends that have backyard chickens,

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Speaker 2: you probably built them a large coupe and within that

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Speaker 2: coup some battery cages. But if you're a backyard chicken person,

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Speaker 2: you probably have battery cages that are very large for

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Speaker 2: two or three four chickens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, these are not the battery cages that they're raised in.

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Speaker 1: After farming became industrialized in the fifties, like these things

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Speaker 1: are usually have. I've seen anywhere between three and seven

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Speaker 1: chickens in there, and usually each one has about the

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Speaker 1: amount of space about a little lower or a little

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Speaker 1: smaller than the size of a standard piece of paper.

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Speaker 1: And for the teenage listeners out there, it's smaller than

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Speaker 1: the size are about the size of an iPad.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's a chick.

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Speaker 3: A chicken.

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Speaker 1: They can't move around, they can't flap their wings, they

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Speaker 1: can't do a lot of stuff that we'll find out

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Speaker 1: is a big problem in a minute. They're meant to

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Speaker 1: be kept basically in one place, and because this stuff

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Speaker 1: has all been industrialized, their whole job, in everything about

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Speaker 1: their life is to just sit there and lay egg

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Speaker 1: after egg after egg. So they're kept in these battery cages.

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Speaker 1: The battery cages are kept off the ground, which is

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Speaker 1: good because it means that they're away from parasites and

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Speaker 1: poop born diseases.

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Speaker 2: And the eggs are yeah.

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Speaker 1: They when they poop, they they it falls onto a

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Speaker 1: conveyor belt that carries the poop away, so it's a

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Speaker 1: little more sanitary. When they lay an egg the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the cage is slanted downward, so it rolls downward

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Speaker 1: onto a different conveyor belt. Thankfully that whisks the egg away.

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Speaker 1: So the whole thing is really automated. And because these

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Speaker 1: cages are so they can be stacked. It's modular, so

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Speaker 1: you can go upward with chickens as well as outward too.

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Speaker 1: You can really raise a lot of chickens in these

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Speaker 1: battery cages. Just good if you're a farmer, not really

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Speaker 1: good if you're a chicken though.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and these chickens, you know, I said that the

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Speaker 2: backyard chickens of your laid about one hundred eggs a year.

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Speaker 2: Today's chickens lay closer to three hundred eggs a year

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Speaker 2: because they are bread as specifically to do so, and

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Speaker 2: just the way that beyond being bred to do so,

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Speaker 2: like you said, they're set up as such that it's

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Speaker 2: just you know, they have made it a very efficient

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Speaker 2: operation as far as how much they can extract from

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Speaker 2: each hen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a real quick chuck.

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Speaker 1: That was a big part of the industrialization of farming too,

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Speaker 1: is breeding practices, to where we started selectively breeding types

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Speaker 1: of chickens that either laid a perfectly nice brown egg

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Speaker 1: or ones that gained weight in certain places that we

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Speaker 1: wanted them to.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 3: Genetics has been a huge part of that as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're really lucky because our really really good friends,

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Speaker 2: Justin and Melissa. I've known Justin since college, you know,

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Speaker 2: Justin Sure they have chickens. They have these four beautiful

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Speaker 2: ladies in their backyard. Awesome, and they have a big,

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Speaker 2: wonderful coup. But anytime they're outside and can safeguard them

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Speaker 2: from hawks by keeping an eye on them. Those ladies

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Speaker 2: are running around the yard with their dogs. They somehow

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Speaker 2: managed to train these dogs to kind of give them

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Speaker 2: their space. And it's great. And you know, they give

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Speaker 2: us eggs and we spend money in their wine shop

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Speaker 2: and it's a great symbiotic relationship that is really great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a.

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Speaker 2: Good We save our cartons and stuff when we do

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Speaker 2: have to buy eggs, so they have cartons to give

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Speaker 2: out to their friends because these ladies are laying a

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Speaker 2: lot of eggs.

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Speaker 1: Lightly So Justin has chickens in a wine shop. Now

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Speaker 1: he's living the life.

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Speaker 2: O man, it's the American dream realized by my British

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Speaker 2: import friend.

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Speaker 3: Look good. So he's doing it. What you could call

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Speaker 3: the right way, I.

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Speaker 1: Think, which is to say, very not necessarily the profit

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Speaker 1: maximizing way. But the chickens are, you would guess, much

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Speaker 1: happier than the ones that are in these battery cages.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why we would say the

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Speaker 1: chickens are not so happy in the battery cage is because,

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Speaker 1: like again, they can't move. If you put a chicken

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Speaker 1: on a piece of paper, it's going to take up

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Speaker 1: most of that piece of paper or iPad, right, So

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Speaker 1: when you visualize that, you suddenly get like, this is

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Speaker 1: this is for the whole for its whole life, usually

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Speaker 1: somewhere around seventy weeks. This is how it spends almost

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Speaker 1: all of that time in this little cage, just laying eggs,

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Speaker 1: laying eggs to at at an unnatural pace. And because

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Speaker 1: it's kind of stuck in this one small place, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that it can't do that people

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Speaker 1: who have studied chickens say, chickens to do this or

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Speaker 1: else they're going to go insane and have a really

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Speaker 1: horrific life. And that is kind of what the basis

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Speaker 1: of creating like cage free setups or like genuine free

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Speaker 1: range setups is it comes from giving chickens a better

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Speaker 1: life while during those seventy or so weeks that they're alive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy for somebody, maybe

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Speaker 2: who doesn't think about it much, to think of a

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Speaker 2: laying him as just this sort of organic egg machine,

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Speaker 2: like a living egg machine. Not organic in the sense

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Speaker 2: that it's you know, sort of hard organic, but a

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Speaker 2: living machine that just pumps out these eggs that we

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Speaker 2: love to eat for breakfast or out on top of

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Speaker 2: a hamburger or you know, rice crispies a could meal. Ooh,

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but that's not the case. Like,

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Speaker 2: these birds have personalities and they have behaviors that they

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Speaker 2: want to do and that they normally do. Like it's

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Speaker 2: just a handful of them they love. And you know,

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Speaker 2: you can see this when I go over to Justin

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Speaker 2: and Melissa's house when they're out doing their thing. They're

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Speaker 2: preening and they're cleaning their feathers and they're flapping, ruffling

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Speaker 2: their feathers around and flapping around, and they take little

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Speaker 2: dust bass, which means they roll around on the ground

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Speaker 2: and they're absorbing oil for their feathers and they're getting

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Speaker 2: rid of their dead skin, and they're shedding feathers that

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Speaker 2: they don't need and little feather mites, and they love

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Speaker 2: to nest. And then here's the big one is And

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Speaker 2: I've seen it happen and I've tried to guard my

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Speaker 2: eyes because i know what's going on. They don't like

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Speaker 2: a lot of attention when they're laying these eggs. They're

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Speaker 2: giving birth. It's a private matter to them, you know,

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Speaker 2: giving birth in the figurative sense, but it's like they're

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Speaker 2: doing their business. They don't want a lot of attention.

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Speaker 2: They like to do this instinctively in private, and they're

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Speaker 2: not able to do that. It's called the laying act

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Speaker 2: and it's on full display. And they can get so

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Speaker 2: upset about having to do this without any privacy in

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Speaker 2: battery cages, not can they do. They get so upset

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Speaker 2: they pecket other hens and they fight each other, and

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Speaker 2: that's why they end up clipping their beaks because the

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Speaker 2: other hens are getting injured from being hen pecked because

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Speaker 2: they're stressed out from living on an iPad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, doctor Conrad Lorenz or Lorenz who starred in our

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Speaker 1: Animal Imprinting episode, I think he's popped up elsewhere. He

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Speaker 1: had a quote he said, the worst torture to which

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Speaker 1: a battery hen is exposed is the inability to retire

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Speaker 1: somewhere for the laying act. Yeah, the person who knows

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Speaker 1: something about animals, it is truly heartrending to watch how

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Speaker 1: a chicken tries again and again to crawl beneath her

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Speaker 1: fellow cage mates to search there in vain for cover.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because they don't get what's going on too. It

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Speaker 2: is it's heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, like that is an enormous thing. Like, not

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Speaker 1: only are we forcing them to have two hundred percent

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Speaker 1: more eggs every year, forcing them to do it against

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Speaker 1: their instinct basically every day, and they really suffer a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of distress for that. And then one of

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Speaker 1: the other ones, one of the other behaviors that's really

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Speaker 1: really big, is roaming their freedom to rome. Chickens are

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Speaker 1: very social animals. They like to hang out, they like

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Speaker 1: to mess with each other. They like to prene one another,

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Speaker 1: not just pre themselves, but they also need space to

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Speaker 1: get away from one another. And when they can't do that,

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Speaker 1: that's when things like henpecking to an injurious degree or

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Speaker 1: cannibalism where all sorts of terrible zoochosis can happen when

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Speaker 1: chickens are stuck together in a very small area for

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Speaker 1: their entire lives. And that is the basis of battery cages.

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Speaker 1: And you said, it's like it makes sense from a

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Speaker 1: mechanized industrial standpoint. But back in the day when they

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Speaker 1: figure this out, these are the same people who resisted

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Speaker 1: putting seatbelts in cars and got us into Vietnam, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, these aren't exactly the most

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Speaker 1: moralistic generation that we've ever produced. They were very sensible

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Speaker 1: and like rational minded and didn't take a great deal

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Speaker 1: of humanity into consideration when it came to profit maximization.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is a segment we like to call Gen

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Speaker 2: X speaks to millennials and Gen Z about boomers.

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Speaker 3: That's right, you got that straight.

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Speaker 2: But it's true. They also, you know, alter their diet

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Speaker 2: and lighting to maximize their output. They don't move around,

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Speaker 2: so they're obviously, you know what's going to happen when

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Speaker 2: an animal is just sort of stuck in the small,

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Speaker 2: tiny thing. They're going to have no muscle. They have

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Speaker 2: muscle loss because they can't move around and do their thing,

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Speaker 2: and they basically become what I described, which is these

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Speaker 2: living egg laying machines, which is exactly how the industrial

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Speaker 2: egg complex, if that's a term, wants it. But things

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Speaker 2: are changing a little bit, and we're going to walk

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Speaker 2: you through so of You know, a lot of these

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Speaker 2: are marketing terms, but some of them are legitimate terms

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Speaker 2: that the USDA allows them to use. In addition to

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Speaker 2: these great pictures that you see on your egg cartons

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Speaker 2: of chickens, like, you know, smiling under the sunshine on

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Speaker 2: a rolling pastoral scene. They're allowed to do stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: but the words that they use are regulated to an extent.

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Speaker 2: And if you really, really really want to do your

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Speaker 2: due diligence, though, you got to know what all this

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Speaker 2: stuff means and then even do a little more investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, typical USDA type stuff. But let's take a break

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Speaker 1: and then we'll get into cage free.

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Speaker 2: How about that, Let's get out of the cage.

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Speaker 3: If you want to know, and you're in luck, just listen.

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Speaker 4: Up to Suffu stuff you.

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Speaker 1: No, Okay, so we're talking cage free, and I think

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Speaker 1: I already let the cat out of the bag, although

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Speaker 1: hopefully not in the chicken coop. Yeah, that cage free

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Speaker 1: actually does have some meaning like it Actually if you

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Speaker 1: look at it compared to the battery cage operations of

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Speaker 1: your or actually I shouldn't say of yours, there's still

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Speaker 1: most chickens in the United States at least are still

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Speaker 1: in battery cages. I think something like seventy percent, which

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Speaker 1: amounts to two hundred and thirty million hens are currently

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Speaker 1: in battery cages.

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Speaker 3: So it's still going on, still happening.

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Speaker 1: But if you if you compare the battery cage to

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Speaker 1: the cage free operation, it is a substantial difference, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the more we describe this stuff, there are

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Speaker 2: levels of getting better, for sure, and k tree is better.

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Speaker 2: It is greater than it means. And this is a

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Speaker 2: direct quote from the US. It means the eggs must

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Speaker 2: be produced by hens housed in a way that allows

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Speaker 2: for not only unlimited access to food and water. And

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Speaker 2: you might think, well, duh, but they used to like

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Speaker 2: keep food from hens, so different things would happen with

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Speaker 2: their production, and they're like, you can't do that at

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Speaker 2: all anymore, and then the rest of it goes. But

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Speaker 2: unlike eggs from cage tins also provides them freedom to

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Speaker 2: roam during the laying cycle.

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Speaker 3: That's huge.

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Speaker 2: But here's the deal is, there aren't any guidelines about

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Speaker 2: what that access to outdoors means. It doesn't say how

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Speaker 2: much space there needs to be, and so basically what

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Speaker 2: you're still seeing is a big, long barn with a

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Speaker 2: bunch of laying hens packed inside there. They're just not

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Speaker 2: in those wire cages.

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Speaker 1: No, they have now instead of about an eight by

402
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Speaker 1: eight square of space available to them like they do

403
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Speaker 1: in the battery cages, typically a hen in a or

404
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Speaker 1: a cage free situation has about a ten and a

405
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Speaker 1: half inch by eleven inch space available to them per bird.

406
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Speaker 1: And it's not like it's designated. That's what they can

407
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Speaker 1: move around. At least they can move around these giant,

408
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Speaker 1: giant barns. The problem is is there's tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of hens also in these barns and they just don't

410
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Speaker 1: have that much room to move. If they had a

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Speaker 1: ton of willpower and they decided they were going to

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Speaker 1: go to point B, they could conceivably make their way there,

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Speaker 1: but it's not going to be easy, and it's not

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Speaker 1: like they're just roaming around and they have a bunch

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Speaker 1: of free space to move around in or do much in. Again,

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Speaker 1: compared to the battery cages where they had no chance

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Speaker 1: of moving away from their little cage, it is a

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Speaker 1: huge improvement. But then when you see a picture of

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Speaker 1: what a cage free barn looks like, it's it gets

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Speaker 1: a little depressing again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know some of these egg producers are

422
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: not the hens, but the operations, so there's only one

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Speaker 2: egg producer in the scenario. They do have some perches

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Speaker 2: that are built up, and they do have some nesting

425
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Speaker 2: areas so they can hop up there. They can stretch

426
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Speaker 2: their wings, but they're not required to. That's not part

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Speaker 2: of the USDA requirement. If you want to look for

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Speaker 2: requirements that you could look for a label from the

429
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Speaker 2: United Egg Producers. They have a different certification guideline for

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Speaker 2: k tree that's a little more I guess open than

431
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Speaker 2: the usdas are restrictive, I guess if you're a farmer.

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Speaker 2: They must allow hens to exhibit natural behaviors that we

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Speaker 2: talked about and include enrichments such as scratch areas, purchase,

434
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: and nests, so they have to have those, and then

435
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Speaker 2: they must have access to litter, and litter is just

436
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 2: like the stuff on the ground that they like to

437
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: roll around in. It's not like beer cans and old

438
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: batteries and stuff.

439
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 3: Not the crying, ironized cody kind.

440
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: They must have protection from predators and be able to

441
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 2: move through a barn in a manner that promotes bird welfare.

442
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: So that's a little hazy, but that generally means not

443
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: as crowded. But I don't think that that even specifies

444
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: what that means.

445
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: No, and that is much better than the USDA standards.

446
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: And the United Egg Producers are an industry industry group

447
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 1: of like egg operators. Like I think there's maybe one

448
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty in the in the United States, which

449
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: is way less than there used to be.

450
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: So to produce like almost all the eggs, right.

451
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and we export a lot of them too. Surprisingly.

452
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: Uh So it's a it's a car, it's a cartel,

453
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: like a lobbying group basically for the egg producers.

454
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

455
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: And you know, at the risk of sounding like suspicious

456
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: of them, like I would guess that they created these

457
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: standards to get ahead of this problem that was growing

458
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden and costing them money. So by

459
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 1: doing better than the USCA, you know, that's great. Like

460
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: their hens are are genuinely like, what's the word, what's

461
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: the opposite of suffering? Benefiting from that? But I think

462
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: it makes me suspect, and actually I know from research

463
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: it can be much better than that, right, And a

464
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: big one is density. It's a it's a huge part

465
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: of it. It's density, how like there should be much

466
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: greater limits on how many hens you can have per barn.

467
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: And then also another one is even under these these better,

468
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: more stricter standards for hen welfare, their their lives are

469
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: very much artificially controlled still because they're kept in this barn.

470
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: They're still in a barn. They don't go outside to

471
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 1: be cage free. You still don't go outside if your hen,

472
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: you spend your entire life in one single barn until

473
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: you stop producing enough eggs fast enough, and then they

474
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: turn you into pet food.

475
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: That's right, sometimes feeding yourself back to your felt chickens.

476
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: I looked a little bit into what chicken feed is

477
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: mainly made of. And because I remember at the time

478
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: when I took this tour, someone said something about, you know,

479
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: there's chicken parts in the chicken feed. This was someone

480
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: telling me this. I didn't find that in my research.

481
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: But there has been a movement away from things like

482
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: fish meal because fish meal is obviously the oceans are

483
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: being depleted too, to using fishes to feed chickens isn't

484
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: a great idea, and I think just a few years

485
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: ago there was final approval to use and it sounds gross,

486
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: but like fly larvae, and you might think, like that's good.

487
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: That is good because that's what chickens would eat if

488
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: they were just roaming the countryside, they would eat things

489
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: like that.

490
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're starting to be fed things they normally would.

491
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: Eat otherwise, which is good.

492
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: Their food is still very much controlled and portioned in everything,

493
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: but they're starting to be fed things that more resemble

494
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: their diet wars before or it was just whatever was

495
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: cheapest and most abundant that you could feed a chicken,

496
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: like soy and fish. That's yeah, that's not natural. And you,

497
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: as the person eating the egg, should be like, I

498
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: don't want an egg from a chicken that's been eating fish.

499
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: It's whole life.

500
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: Chickens don't eat fish. This egg probably tastes way different

501
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: than it should, right, And that's another thing too. There's

502
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: a lot of health benefits that have been documented in

503
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: eggs that come from well treated chickens. It seems to

504
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: be that the better you treat a chicken, the healthier

505
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: the egg it produces.

506
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: Is you can just get a and you know, if

507
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 2: you don't have a friend that has a back ear chicken,

508
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: there's probably some local farmer's market where some fish fan

509
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: will sell you their eggs and you need only look

510
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: at them from the outside at first, to what they

511
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: look like in the pan, to what they taste like.

512
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: It is a stark difference.

513
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 1: It just is yeah, totally, you eat one and you

514
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: can take on like five cops.

515
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that nutrient. These cage free chickens, whether they're

516
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: United Egg Producer Standard or just USDA standard, they still

517
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: have their beaks trimmed. When they're ten days old. They're

518
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: still force molted. Molting is a natural process, but they

519
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: do something called force molting when and this is where

520
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: they used to take away their feed entirely to force molting.

521
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: Now they just withhold some feed to force the molting.

522
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: It's when they shed those feathers and molt and that

523
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: extends their layer life by you know, it's pretty substantial.

524
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: It can be like twenty five to forty weeks. So

525
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: again they're they're ringing every last egg out of those chickens,

526
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: k tree or not.

527
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: I saw that the forced molting is not actually in

528
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: and of itself harmful, and that it might actually be

529
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: beneficial for the chickens because they live their life indoors,

530
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: and one of the ways that they do that is

531
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: through adjusting the length of the light, the artificial light.

532
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: But the problem is they're withholding no, it's not naturally happening,

533
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: but it's not going to naturally happen during their lifetime anyway,

534
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: And it actually is good for them to go through

535
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: a molt, But they wouldn't without this induced or forced

536
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: molting because they aren't. They aren't subjected to natural light.

537
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: They don't get natural light. It's all artificial. They spend

538
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: their entire lives basically indoors, almost entirely cut off from

539
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: natural light, if not entirely cut off from it.

540
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: See, I thought hens molt by being a hen.

541
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 4: No.

542
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: No, I think they take their cues from a shorter

543
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: duration of days, and then they stop eating quite as much.

544
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: Then they go through the molting process, stop laying eggs

545
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: as frequently, and.

546
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: Then that is what I'm saying.

547
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: Yes, it does, but it's queued by changes in natural light.

548
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: And if they're not exposed to natural light, they're not

549
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: going to undergo.

550
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: The mold.

551
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: Rights. Yeah, but like justin Melissa's eggs, malt because they

552
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: like it can be the shorter day of the natural

553
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: light cycle of a year.

554
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: Right right, yeah, yeah, And that's a natural thing.

555
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like they can induce it through artificial

556
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: light changes an artificial light, and it's not necessarily bad

557
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: that they induce it artificially. It's probably better than just

558
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: not doing.

559
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: It at all.

560
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, I gotcha. Okay, I thought you were saying

561
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: they don't molt normally.

562
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I would never say something like that.

563
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: Now we can move on. Those are hens that lay eggs.

564
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: Now we can move on to hens that are raised

565
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: for meat. They are called broilers in the industry, and

566
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 2: it's kind of the same deal. Ninety nine percent of

567
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: American broiler chickens never see light in this country. They

568
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: are in those from the moment they're born as little

569
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: chicki chicks. They are in a barn, and they live

570
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: about six weeks and they are they are pumped up

571
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: as fast as they can be pumped up to get

572
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: the biggest breast meat possible. I think there was, Dave.

573
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: This is pretty startling. They found a calculation that if

574
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: you sort of transferred their growth rate to what a

575
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: human baby would look like, it would be a three

576
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: hundred and forty nine pound baby by their second birthday.

577
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: Like baby, hueie, yeah, that's baby, we are, right.

578
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

579
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: So the way that they did this is through basically

580
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: selective breeding, selecting chickens that grow in their breast area.

581
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: But they've basically surpassed any any point where you would

582
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: normally stop because it's now very harmful for the chicken.

583
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: These chickens that we eat, the broiler chickens not necessarily

584
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: a whole chicken. It can also be like you know,

585
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: like drumsticks or breasts or thighs or whatever, all that

586
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: comes from a broiler chicken. Any chicken you eat is

587
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: a broiler chicken. These broiler chickens are usually selected for

588
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: their breasts, and their breasts are so heavy that they

589
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: can't really walk because their legs aren't developing the way

590
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: that they should. But then in addition to that, their

591
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: legs can't develop the way they should because the breast

592
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: is so heavy, so they end up with metabolic diseases,

593
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: they end up with muscle atrophy, and they don't do

594
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: much of anything except eat and rest because that's basically

595
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: all they have the energy to do.

596
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: Yees, six weeks is their lifespan. Yeah, I'll just want

597
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: to reiterate that.

598
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: So over the six weeks, Yeah, they go from like

599
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: chicks to slaughtered adults in six weeks, So they're growing

600
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: that fast. But they're also growing way bigger than any

601
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: normal chicken wood, right, any normal breed. So during that

602
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: six weeks, they're stuck in this litter. If they're in

603
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: a situation where they have litter available to them, and

604
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: they're just pooping and peeing in this litter, and they're

605
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: not getting up enough to not get like blisters from

606
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: the ammonia in the litter, it's a problem in and

607
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: of itself. Like that's how basically obese these these chickens are.

608
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: That they cannot move much at all, and they end

609
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: up getting sores from exposure to all the year in

610
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: there they're sitting in.

611
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the hardest part of that tour for me,

612
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: and the one where my buddy Barry and I actually

613
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: left the building after And I'll go ahead, and we

614
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: probably should have issued a trigger warning period, but hopefully

615
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: the titled episode would scare off any like vegans who

616
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: really don't even want to hear about this. But trigger

617
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: warning right here. One of the you know, and this

618
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: is what they do when one of the broilers or

619
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: any of the chickens are are injured or you know,

620
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: winged in some way that isn't I don't know. I'm

621
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: not gonna put I'm not gonna label what exactly is

622
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: wrong with the chicken when they pick it up by

623
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 2: the neck and sling it in a little circle real

624
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: quick to snap their neck and then throw it back

625
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: on the ground. But that's exactly what happened in front

626
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: of us when we saw a chicken that apparently wasn't

627
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: doing well. And the guy's literally in mid conversation, and

628
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: I know this is the job that they do, and

629
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: I don't expect him to hold a funeral. But that's

630
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: when Barry and I stepped out and we're like, we're

631
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 2: going to be out here for the rest of the tour,

632
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 2: I can imagine, and I was about to start, Yeah,

633
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: I had five cigarettes at the same time, so there's

634
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: this writer from the New Yorker named Michael Spencer who

635
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: went to a poultry farm and he wrote that there

636
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: must have been thirty thousand chickens sitting silently on the

637
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: floor in front of me.

638
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: They didn't move, they didn't cluck. They were almost like

639
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: statues of chickens living in nearly total darkness. And they

640
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: would spend every minute of their six week lives that way.

641
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty sobering.

642
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: And those are the brothers, those are the ones we eat, right,

643
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: So again, they're bread to grow this way, and it's

644
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: totally unnatural. Chickens don't normally get like that. And when

645
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: they do interact with people, which is not obviously a

646
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: requirement for a chicken to have good life, but it's

647
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: for what you just said. It's to harvest or kill

648
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: a sicker or just a sick chicken, or get the

649
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: carcass of a dead chicken out of there. And if

650
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 1: you want to see just how little humans, how little

651
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: of a role humans have in chicken farming today, there's

652
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: a video that they found. It's actually like a trade

653
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: video that I think is kind of like to sell

654
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: all of these different machines. It's called inside the million

655
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: dollar chicken farm, Amazing modern chicks, poultry farming technology. It's

656
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: on YouTube and it's like sixteen minutes long. I didn't

657
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: watch it with the volume, so I don't know if

658
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: there's narration, but if you watch it on mute, it's

659
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: just it's mesmerizing. And it's also like, I really hope

660
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: humans don't end up like this in the next like

661
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: two hundred years, you know, like it's really really weird

662
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: and unsettling, but then also at the same time deeply fascinating.

663
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the answer then would be free range is

664
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: seemingly the solution. So what does that mean. We talked

665
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: about cage free and what that means for the USDA.

666
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 2: Any egg or poultry product that can be classified as

667
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: free range means the housing for the birds must provide

668
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: continuous free access to the outside through their normal growing cycle.

669
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: And again, this is sort of like that story when

670
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: the guy said it just means there's a door. They

671
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: don't go out there because their food and water is

672
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: in ear DA doesn't say how big this door has

673
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: to be, where it has to be placed. They don't

674
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: say they don't require them to go outside, like they

675
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: don't shuttle them outside every day for some sunlight, like

676
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: you would like in a prison yard or something like that.

677
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: All that matters is that they have continuous access. That

678
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: door stays accessible and open. And so you've got your

679
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: big barn again, you've got your small door, and if

680
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: they want to go outside, they can. But then even

681
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 2: if they do go outside, it doesn't say like and

682
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: you got to have this much area for this many

683
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: chickens to roam around if they want to. It can

684
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: be anything. It can be a pretty small little area

685
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: and it still qualifies as outside.

686
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: So those huge dark barns with artificial light filled with

687
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of chickens, if you popped a hole

688
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: the size of a breadplate into the wall of that barn,

689
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: you could call your operation a free range chicken operation.

690
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 3: Now that's it.

691
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 2: I didn't need to be fair, But technically you're right.

692
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like, yes, it is technical that I'm right.

693
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: But from the research into just how how much of

694
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: a finger the USDA has on what constitutes free range

695
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: and who meets those requirements, it's entirely possible that somebody's

696
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: just cut a little hole side of the barn and

697
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: now is saying free range and could argue that if

698
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: an inspector did come out and argued it with them,

699
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: they would probably the egg producer would probably win that

700
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: argument in court, right.

701
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: I mean, the doors I saw were bigger, and chickens

702
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: could easily fit like more than one chicken, like they

703
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: were sizable. But again, the whole point is their food

704
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: and water is inside, and so chickens are, generally, and

705
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: especially when they're still pretty crowded in there, they're still

706
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: gonna stay where their food and water is. Generally, it's

707
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: not like they're saying, hey, we're gonna put the water out,

708
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: We're gonna have outdoor class today. Guys, we're gonna put

709
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: the water in the food outside. That'll really encourage you

710
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 2: to go outside. They don't care if they go outside

711
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: or not.

712
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: So we should say the EU has much better standards

713
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: for what constitutes free range. They've been working at free

714
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: range and cage free stuff since like ninety nine and

715
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: have really made some big gain since then. But then

716
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 1: even in the United States, Chuck, there's plenty of people

717
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: like Justin who are saying, like, no, I actually want

718
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: my chickens to be free range, like you would think

719
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: free range actually is, and so there's there's there's another

720
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: kind of designation called pasture raised, which people tend to

721
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: use when they're to kind of separate themselves from free range,

722
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: because I think enough people have picked up on the

723
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: fact that free range is kind of meaningless, so pasture

724
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: rage seems to be more more legitimate or most people

725
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: who do legitimately raise chickens outdoors would call them pasture raised.

726
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: So they're like wheeling them around from place to place.

727
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: They have an enclosure that they can go to and

728
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: inclement weather, but for the most most of their lives,

729
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: they're spending their time outdoors doing what chickens do, given

730
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: plenty of space for being chickens, and that's typically pasture raised. Unfortunately,

731
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: as far as the usd IS can, the USDA is

732
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: considered sure raised is the same thing as free range.

733
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: So again, if you have a shed that has all

734
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: these chickens and you cut a hole on the side,

735
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: you can now call that pasture raise too if you want.

736
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't. And if you're saying, well, if you're

737
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: saying that some places use pasture rage raised or raged, uh,

738
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: that'd be quite a party.

739
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 3: It's like loosing your pasture if.

740
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 2: You're saying that some farmers are doing it right, smaller

741
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 2: operations and when they say pasture raise, they mean it.

742
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 2: But technically the U State DA doesn't make a distinction.

743
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: What am I to do. That's where you have to

744
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: like do your homework. You can't just make if you

745
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: want to, you if you if it matters to you,

746
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: you got to look up this farm and see what

747
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: they're doing. And a lot of times these smaller farms

748
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: will say, hey, come on out if you care, and

749
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: we'll show you our operation because we're proud of it,

750
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: like you can. They generally have websites where you can

751
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 2: and it's all there, you know. I think the USDA,

752
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: even tom not demands but requires a I demand a

753
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: u URL.

754
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: They take their shoe off and bang it on the desk.

755
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: They require a URL where you can look this stuff

756
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: up if you want to.

757
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

758
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, the USA is all over that, which is good

759
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: because I mean, we've got third party certification who you know,

760
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: who could be illegitimate. But I think that like the

761
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: industry would police third party certifiers because they don't want

762
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: to like give away their money unnecessarily because getting getting

763
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: things like pasture raised or free range like these are

764
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: these are like it's not required, you can opt to

765
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: have it done, to be certified like that, but you're

766
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: gonna pay for it. So if we had like phony

767
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: you know, certifiers running around, I guess yeah, the big

768
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: producers will probably co opt it and use it to

769
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: their gain. But luckily there are some really legitimate third

770
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 1: party certifiers. And the one that seems to have bubbled

771
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: at the top as far as I can tell, is

772
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: called Humane Farm Animal Care. A fact I think is

773
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 1: the way that you say the abbreviation.

774
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a good cliffhanger. Okay, yeah, and

775
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: let's take our final break and we'll talk about them

776
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: and generally how the USDA determines if it qualifies as

777
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: K three or free range. To begin with, if.

778
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 4: You want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen

779
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 4: up to Jucher Suffus stuffution No.

780
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: All right, So you mentioned a couple of important things

781
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: before the break. One is that if you want these certifications,

782
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 2: it is an like egg grating stuff like that you see,

783
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: like Grade A eggs. It is a voluntary thing you

784
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: have to pay for you can you know you do

785
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: it so you can put it on your label so

786
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: you can charge more obviously mm hm. And you know,

787
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: maybe you care about delivering a higher quality egg. Who knows,

788
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: but the DA doesn't like if it's certified organic. They're

789
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: not out there doing that certification. That is completely done

790
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 2: by USDA approved certification bodies, and those seem to be

791
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: a little more feed on the ground. As far as

792
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: actually going to farms and looking at them, the USDA

793
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: does not require and they can't there are too many,

794
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: you know that. I don't think they even had the

795
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: staffing to do that if they wanted to go out

796
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: and actually photograph arms and check it out. If you

797
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: want that descriptor and label, you have to send in

798
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: a detailed written description explaining how it meets to standards,

799
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 2: along with an affidavit that's signed that it's not false

800
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: or misleading. But that's kind of it, Like that's all

801
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: the proof they need.

802
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: That's so that's for free range, Yes, cage free they

803
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: take way more seriously. That's where they do have inspectors

804
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: go out and check so like if it says cage

805
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: free has been verified that this meets those cage free standards,

806
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: so that's a good thing. That's another reason why KG

807
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: free is a big step up. But yeah, free ranges.

808
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: You say, yes, my operation is free range under USDA standards.

809
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: No, I'm not lying, And the.

810
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: Usa DA says, good enough, you can put free range

811
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: on your labels.

812
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: Now, yeah they did. I think they found a study

813
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: from that Animal Welfare Institute that examined records from the

814
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 2: FSIS and they found that only one producer out of

815
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: one hundred actually submitted photos of the barn showing the

816
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: access like I think eighty three out of thee hundred

817
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 2: provided evidence I guess not photographic evidence, but affidavits and

818
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: third party kind of certifications, and then seventeen of them

819
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: just had zero substantiation at all, and that they dug

820
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: in a little bit and found in forty four cases

821
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: they had no detailed written description at all, which is

822
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: supposedly what's required.

823
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: But they still got approval from the USDA to label

824
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: their stuff as free range.

825
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to say the words rubber stamp, but

826
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: it seems like it might be that way for sure.

827
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: And again, just buyer beware. Free range is synonymous as

828
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: far as the USDA is concerned with free roaming pasture

829
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: fed pasture, grown pasture raised and meadow raised, and again,

830
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: just want to drive this home. It means that there's

831
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: a hole in the side of this giant barn filled

832
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: with tens of thousands of chickens who may or may

833
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: not be going in or out of that hole on

834
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: any day or if ever, during their entire lives. And

835
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: on the other side of that it might just be

836
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: a concrete pad, is what they could be free ranging on. Like,

837
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: that's it as far as the USDA is concerned. So

838
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: we have a long way to go with free range,

839
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: in particular because Chuck, like you, me and basically anyone

840
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast has a totally different conception of

841
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: what free range means, right. And there was a survey

842
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: that was done again by the Animal Welfare Institute. They

843
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: did it in twenty fifteen, and they went out to people,

844
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: just every day people and said, hey, what do you

845
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: think free range should should entail? And they came back

846
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: with some pretty interesting stuff.

847
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, they you know, as you would expect, sixty five

848
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: percent of people thought that free range should mean that

849
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: there's enough space outside for every bird to be out

850
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: during the day, during daylight hours if they want to be,

851
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: and sixty two percent of consumers said they thought the

852
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: outdoor area should be at least partially covered by grass.

853
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: Like the expectation from consumers is, well, you put a

854
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: picture on your cart and of a hen rolling around

855
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 2: this beautiful pastoral scene. So that's kind of what I expect.

856
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 2: Or am I just being hoodwinked? And the answer is

857
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: you're being hoodwinked.

858
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: Well, to be fair, these are the same people that

859
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: believe that those barbecue signs where a pig is actually

860
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: cooking the barbecue, they think that's going on as well.

861
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: So we've got to really kind of keep this.

862
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: I never understood that one those are so disturbing, it

863
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 2: really is. This is my brother Lou. We were eating him.

864
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: Later we had a falling out.

865
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 2: Uh So, like I said, if you're if this all

866
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: of this is just frustrating and confusing, all you have

867
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: to do is do a little leg work or you know,

868
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: obviously go to those local farmers' markets because that's where

869
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: that's where you're really gett into good stuff and talk

870
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: to them. I guarantee you that fish fan is going

871
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: to invite you out to their farm to check out

872
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: what's going on. Yeah, but you might walk away with

873
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: more than eggs. You know what I'm saying, that's right,

874
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: that'd be a nice trip. So it literally amia. So

875
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: if you do want to figure.

876
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 1: Out like where to get good eggs or what eggs

877
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: you can trust, and because it's because you don't trust

878
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: a fish fan, there are organizations that say like, let's

879
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: not get fish fans involved in this at all, let's

880
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: keep them at bay, and everyone says, yes, agreed, agreed,

881
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: How can we move forward without the fishes?

882
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: To keep them on the couch they belong.

883
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: So again, the humane farm animal care fact, they they

884
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: from what I can tell, at least in the United States,

885
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: they definitely are legit. And they've come up with some

886
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: definitions for their certified humane labels, so that's certified humane

887
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: on a like a poultry or some sort of food product.

888
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: It actually has met some really good standards. And they

889
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: were basically like the USDA's definition of free range and

890
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: pasture raised are so terrible. We're just going to create

891
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: our own definitions. And they did so, they created their

892
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: own standards and to be certified humane free range or

893
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: certified humane pasture raised that they the producers have to

894
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: meet them standards and they're good ones.

895
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really good, or you know, comparatively speaking. At

896
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: least for free range, the hens must be outside for

897
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: at least six hours a day, weather permitting, obviously, and

898
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: that that outdoor space must have a minimum of two

899
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: square feet for every bird. And again that doesn't sound

900
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: like much and it's not, but the difference between being

901
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: able to move around freely when you have two square

902
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: feet per bird and when you have an iPad per

903
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: bird is pretty huge, Like you can actually move around

904
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: and it's not just like being at the worst party

905
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: you've ever been to. Pasture Rays Certified humane is even

906
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: better than that. The hens must be outdoors year round

907
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: with mobile or fixed housing where the hens can nest

908
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: or rest for the night, get out about weather, and

909
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: they are. They get about one hundred and eight square

910
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: feet per bird, one thousand birds for two point five acres.

911
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 3: A bird doesn't even know what to do with that

912
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 3: much space.

913
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 2: No, they're like, hey, can I build a a wing

914
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: onto my little in house?

915
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: That's right, and Chuck.

916
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: One of the big things that they're doing at HAFAC

917
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: is they employ veterinarians, people with advanced degrees and animal studies.

918
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: Those are the people that go out and visit these

919
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: farms to certify them, people who know what they're talking about,

920
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: people who are not going to be bought off, people

921
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: with the animal's welfare in mind, to verify that everybody's

922
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: meeting these standards before they get that certification.

923
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 3: So that's a good one.

924
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: There are plenty of other ones out there too, but

925
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: that's just based on our research and from what Dave

926
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: came up with too. It's like, that's that's a good

927
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: one to start with. But it's like you said, do

928
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: your homework.

929
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't take long either. It's not like

930
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: you've got to invest hours and hours into this chicken research. Like, right,

931
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: I guarantee you, wherever you live, you can find some

932
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 2: pretty good options with you know, fifteen minutes of research

933
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 2: online that's right near you.

934
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there you have it. We just need to

935
00:50:59,560 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 3: get on the.

936
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: Increase to basically say no, they have to spend a

937
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: certain amount of time outdoors to be free range, and

938
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: then we'll go from there, because the USA will probably

939
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: say fifteen minutes to start. Yeah, if you want to

940
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: know more about free range chickens and cage free eggs,

941
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff out there that.

942
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 3: You can read, and we hope that you will.

943
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: And since I said we hope that you will, it's

944
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 1: time for a listener.

945
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 3: Maiw.

946
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: That's right. This one is called egg on Chuck's face

947
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 2: because I've misspoken a big way on our National Parks episode.

948
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: When I touted disperse camping wherever you want national parks,

949
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: I meant I was thinking of national forests. Oh, that's

950
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: where you can do disperse camping wherever you want. And

951
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: a boy, I said it a bunch, So you can't

952
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: camp anywhere you want national parks, okay, And I feel

953
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 2: terrible for that being out there so much that we

954
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: may even have to edit that. But greetings from your

955
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: friend a national park ranger. Your episode of National Parks

956
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 2: is excellent, and we heard from quite a few park rangers.

957
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: By the way, I like to address a statement made

958
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 2: by Chuck. Some national parks may still allow to purse camping.

959
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: It's commonly allowed in national forests. Though parks and national

960
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 2: forests are similar but have different missions and are therefore

961
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: managed differently, National parks tend to regulate recreation a little

962
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: more strictly. In fact, many national parks now permit systems

963
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: in place for backpackers. Yeah, that's very, very true, and

964
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: those who successfully acquire permits even then are often restricted

965
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 2: to camping and designated backcountry camp sites. This prevents overcrowding

966
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: and popular destinations, which lessens the amount of abandoned gear,

967
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 2: garbage and food scraps and heavily left behind by certain visitors.

968
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: Certain visitors wanted to address this because though regulating where

969
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: people camp and how many people can camp in a

970
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 2: certain area may seem extreme to some, helps preserve the

971
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: wilderness character and solitude so many visitors are seeking when

972
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: they visit a national park. Only visitors who disperse camp

973
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: in a park that requires a designated campsite and or

974
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 2: permit may be subject to fines. That's very important for

975
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: all visitors to research regulations for any park for US

976
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: or wilderness that they're visiting. Happy hiking and that is

977
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: from our no named park ranger. Park ranger wish to

978
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: remain anonymous, which is we're always happy to do.

979
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, anonymous park ranger. Happy hiking to you as well.

980
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,439
Speaker 2: That's right, And I even had one park ranger say,

981
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 2: don't make fun of our green shorts, And to be clear,

982
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: I don't think those shorts are the same color as

983
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 2: those trucks, A really color I was really making fun of. Okay,

984
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: maybe they are, but I don't know if there's a

985
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: if you could even make a fabric that.

986
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 3: Color, right, they just kind of appear.

987
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: It doesn't adhere to textiles.

988
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much again, anonymous park Ranger, into

989
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: all the park rangers and everybody who rode into correct Chuck, who,

990
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 1: by the way, took it with so wait to go, Chuck.

991
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this via email,

992
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: like your friendly anonymous park ranger did, you can send

993
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

994
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 4: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

995
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

996
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.