1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. That's our super producer, Max the 4 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: big Fish Williams. We've got something really exciting today, Noel Brown, 5 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Bolin. We are Yes, Yes, we are introducing 6 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: our brand new research associate, Ames Doyle. Ah. 7 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: Yes, welcome Ames, if only in spirit. And indeed we 8 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: have talked to Ames about possibly jumping on as a 9 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: guest for a future topic. But yeah, this is their 10 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: inaugural research brief for Ridiculous History, and it's quite a doozy. 11 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a story that you and I had never 12 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 1: heard of before. This is very much a tale involving astrology. 13 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: It's very much a tale involving a little bit of 14 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: mystery and intrigue and solving of aforementioned mysteries. As Ames 15 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: tells us, before there were TikTok astrologers and apps to 16 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: warn you of an impending mercury retrograde, there was a 17 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: guy named William Lily, not to be confused with Eli Lily. 18 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: William is a seventeenth century English astrologer and no, I 19 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: gotta tell you in the interest in transparency. I'm not 20 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: on TikTok. I know it's similar to Reddit or other 21 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: social media in that there are all these niche communities, 22 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: but it makes sense to me that there would be 23 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: TikTok astrologers. 24 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: It sure does. 25 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: I mean, do you uh do do you mess with 26 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: the talk? 27 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: I know I'm not a talker. I'm a talker, but 28 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: I'm not a tickety talker, and it's it's I don't know. 29 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: I see things reposted elsewhere, so I feel like I'm 30 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: more or less up to date. But I tried it 31 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: a couple of times, and I've found the algorithm aggressive, 32 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: let's just put it that way. I didn't like how 33 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 2: much it knew about me so quickly, and how much 34 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: it kind of played to my basest, least admirable instincts. 35 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and as long time listeners of ridiculous history or 36 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: indeed stuff they don't want you to know or already 37 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: well aware, my paranoia disallows me from engaging with TikTok. 38 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: But aimes, we believe you, and we can't wait to 39 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: hear over on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians, which makes 40 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: us sound super old. We can't wait to hear your 41 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: takes on TikTok astrologers, astrology in general. Our guy Lily 42 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: is a big deal in his time in the seventeenth century. 43 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: Because we always use this idiom in modern English, we 44 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: say someone wrote the book on insert topic. Here turns 45 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: out that our guy Willie literally did write the book 46 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: on astrology in his area, and he was famous in 47 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: his field for a certain type or sect of astrology 48 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: called horrory hrry. 49 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're going to get into it 50 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: with this interests both of us because it was a 51 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: type of astrology that was pioneered by ancient Islamic folks, 52 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: and both of us. When we were in Doha, Kutthar 53 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: went to the Islamic Museum of Culture and there were 54 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: quite a few astrological exhibits there, includingstrological charts, various implements 55 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: and texts and things like that. I think that was 56 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: both of our favorite part of that museum, with so 57 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: many of the illuminated texts and all that, but lots 58 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: of astrology in that place. 59 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, And our guy Lily uses this specific sect 60 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: of astrology, which, as you said, Noel, we'll get into 61 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: in a moment to not just divine hidden truths about 62 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: personalities or predilections, the way you would be, the way 63 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: you would see your son's sign described in a newspaper today. Instead, 64 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: he was doing a kind of divination that allowed him, 65 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: in theory, to find lost items and then to also 66 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: narrow down where to look for these items or these 67 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: hidden or lost things, and to figure out predict we 68 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: could say, whether the thing would be found at all. 69 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: And this is this is a new story to us, folks. 70 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: One of the most memorable cases of William Lily's career 71 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: involves the mysterious disappearance of fish ed onions that he 72 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: ordered from London, which already sounds like a Guy Ritchie film. 73 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: Right, I know, it really does fishing onions in it. Yeah. No, 74 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: it's also a delightful breakfast. But you got to add 75 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: some eggs in there. Go to Barney green Grass on 76 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: the Upper West Side of New York, get their famous 77 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: sturgeon and onions and eggs, and it's fantastic. I believe 78 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: it was one of Anthony Bourdain's favorite breakfasts. 79 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're very indeficient eggs over at parties. 80 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: And you know, William was clearly in deficient onions at 81 00:05:52,120 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: some point in his life. He started out not as 82 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 1: like a Francis scott Key silver spoon dude. He started 83 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: out the child of a modest farming family in England 84 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: in sixteen o two. And this is an inspiring story 85 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: because his parents, you know, and they're not aristocrats, they're 86 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: not the one percenters of their time, but they do 87 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: really support their kids and despite the fact that they 88 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: have to save every penny they can, just like just 89 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: like Charlie's family in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, they 90 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: do save up money and they send them off to 91 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: get what Encyclopedia Britannica calls a quote tolerably good classic 92 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: education end quote. And he hopes to continue into hire 93 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: education right after his classic education, but unfortunately his family 94 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: just doesn't have the cheddar for it. They don't have 95 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: fishing onions for it, which is a phrase we're making 96 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: up to use as money and William Lily would have 97 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: as well. He took a job as a secretary in 98 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: London for a fellow named Gilbert Wright, the master of 99 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: the Assalter's Company. His father was in debtors prison at 100 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: the time, but was still happy to see him gone, 101 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: calling him a. 102 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: Quote good for nothing. I think we need to bring 103 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: that back as harsh as it made me. I do 104 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: love a good for nothing? No, a lay about a 105 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: shiftless lout, Yeah, harsh man. Lily worked for Wright for 106 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: seven years until Wright passed away in sixteen twenty seven, 107 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: after which he almost immediately proposed marriage to his freshly 108 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: widowed widow Ellen. 109 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: Hey, Ellen, No, it's a weird time, but we've been 110 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: through a lot other than gesturing around at the funeral. 111 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: What's your weekend looking like? 112 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like she went for it, though. 113 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: Six years later, Ellen passed away herself and left all 114 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: of her fortune to Lily. Property didn't get married. 115 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: He didn't get it was the Robinson thing, because Willie 116 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: is twenty five at this. 117 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: Where have you gone, Joe Demaggio? Indeed, this property was 118 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: valued roughly one thousand pounds or a boop? Is what 119 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: we need? Calculator tells us, Yes, the inflation calculation Nation 120 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 2: Station tells us that that's around two hundred thousand pounds 121 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: sterling in today's money. I'm not sure what that equates 122 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: you in euros, but where that's that's a bridge too 123 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: far with his newly acquired fortune, William Lilly was able 124 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: to live the life of luxury that he's so well 125 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: believed he deserves. He had plenty of idle time, which obviously, 126 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: as we know, is the devil's playground. He used it 127 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: to study astrology, which some at the time may have 128 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: called the devil's work. 129 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: Yes, and I don't know whether we have a been 130 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: with the facts sound que here we must we did 131 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: the math, folks, and two hundred thousand pounds sterling is 132 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: the equivalent of two hundred and thirty four thousand and 133 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: forty nine euros. 134 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: That seeking in the fun bad and he's fallen knowledge. 135 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: It's just for you right now here, tead the fact. 136 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: So this is a life changing amount of money, right 137 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: And I love that you're saying this could have been 138 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: seen as heretical to study astrology. We have to remember 139 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: that at this time in history it is far more 140 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: common to be a self educated expert who is accepted 141 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: in your field. So he's not at Cambridge right reading 142 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: law or some like that. Instead, he is snagging every 143 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: single text he can get on every concept or approach 144 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: to astrology, and then he attempts to become a practicing astrologer. 145 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: So he's not just ingesting this knowledge, he's synthesizing it. 146 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: He's putting his own spin on it, he's adding to it, 147 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: he's revising all the stuff he reads. He strikes us 148 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: as kind of a actually guy, you know what I mean? 149 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: Like he reads a book and says, actually, this other 150 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: book I read earlier, says this other thing. And he's 151 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: putting it within the context of his time, especially within 152 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: political events. So if something crazy happens with the monarchy 153 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: of his day, he looks to the heavens and he says, 154 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: does this corarely with movements of the planet? And can 155 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,239 Speaker 1: if I can plain what's happening now through the discipline 156 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: of astrology, which I'm increasingly making my own, could I 157 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: begin to cultivate a predictive ability? 158 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: Right? 159 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: Could I? Could I go from saying, oh, this bad 160 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: thing happened with this duke here while these planets were 161 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: doing this, and from there, can I say, I know 162 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: these planets will do certain things, and therefore I know 163 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: what the duke will do in the future. 164 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: Bit nonlinear, don't you think? 165 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? 166 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: A bit a bit, there's there's I'm sorry, bet it 167 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: just really it brings to mind this fantastic Brian eno 168 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: lyric from the song Backwater. And it's also just a 169 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: great turner phrase here, a great rhyme scheme, but it's 170 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: if it's But if you study the logistics and heuristics 171 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: of the mystics, you will find that their minds rarely 172 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: move in a line. So it's much more realistic to 173 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: abandon such ballistics and resign to be trapped on a 174 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: leak in the vine. 175 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: And we persist in loving internal rhyme right. 176 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: Anyway, Sorry to drop a reference. 177 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and thanks for tuning in Brian. So once his 178 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: astrological practices evolve, Lily begins to uh begins to believe 179 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: that his divination is creating reliable results, so much so 180 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: that he starts publishing almanacs with his predictions, similar to 181 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: the way that much later Benjamin Franklin will start publishing 182 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: the Farmer's Almanac. And if we go to sources like 183 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:52,479 Speaker 1: Explore Astrology, we will see this confirmed. Lily began publishing 184 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: these almanacs, which were predictive every single year. They became 185 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: very very popular. His first had a banger name. In 186 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: sixteen forty four, he published mon Than This Agnoicus junior, 187 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: which I think is cool and humble that he had 188 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: a junior. 189 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just as a little humbling diminutive, you know. 190 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: Caveat there at the end. 191 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: And the readers. Part of the reason this became so 192 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: famous is because the readers were certain that this almanac 193 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: foretold the defeat of the king at the Battle of 194 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: Naseby in sixteen forty five. So a year before that 195 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: defeat occurred, this book said that it would happen. And 196 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: now he starts becoming known as England's leading astrologer, and 197 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: people from every imaginable demographic of the weird archipelago that 198 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: we call England started saying, man, this guy is super 199 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: Dupe's accurate. We see people who are high profile members 200 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: of aristocratic society, like John Selden, becoming Lily fans. We 201 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: see members of Parliament like William Lenthall becoming Lily fans. 202 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: And the thing is, as a lot of us know 203 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: from unfortunate personal experience, when you become an expert in 204 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: a very specific given field, and when very important, powerful 205 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: people start paying attention to your expertise. 206 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: Oh they very illiterative, ben Well, no, thank you, sir. 207 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: Those powerful people start pulling you into their orbit. We're 208 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: doing astrology jokes, So Lily Lily inevitably gets wrapped up 209 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: in the politics of a revolutionary England. 210 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: Merlinus Anglicus Junior. It's a cool, It's really dope. No, 211 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: I like that a lot. Lily, however, was pretty staunchly 212 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: ant high monarchists, which could have ruffled some feathers, right, 213 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: and was known to work with clients from every walk 214 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: of life. He was not an elitist, and who he 215 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: decided to do readings for his clientele's background did show 216 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: This is according to astro dot Com that Astrology's social 217 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: reach was relatively wide. Around twenty percent of his customers 218 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: is a direct quote from that piece were of noble birth. 219 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: Another twenty percent worked in traditional trades and crafts, fifteen 220 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: percent were seafarers, less than one percent were paupers, military men, 221 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: and professionals such as lawyers and physicians. Interesting. I would 222 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: imagine lawyers and physicians might be more likely to essue 223 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: the you know, the astrological arts. 224 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting note, nol, because we have to 225 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: remember at this time we're still in very much in 226 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: the age of like alchemy, right, we're still very much 227 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: in the age of the Bible, for instance, at being 228 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: treated as a scientific text. So we have these very 229 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: learned folks who are also it's paradoxical because they're very 230 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: closed minded, right in pursuit of religious beliefs, but in 231 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: pursuit of things that don't seem opposed to religion specifically, 232 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: they're pretty open minded. So, and also, people love to 233 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: hear more about themselves. People love predictability, they love the future. 234 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: He had a huge list of clients. His biggest demographic 235 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: from our source astro dot com here was probably female servants. 236 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: So he was kind of an everyman in this case. 237 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't care who you are, just reach out to me. 238 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: This is my vocation and I will help you figure 239 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: out what the heavens mean. This leads to further fame 240 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: for him, right, he's a man of the people, an 241 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: astrologer of the people. He publishes Christian Astrology. It's a 242 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: three part anthology. It's a three part collection. He publishes 243 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: it in sixteen forty seven. And no, I think this 244 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: is very clever because he's nipping these accusations of heresy 245 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: off in the butt, or he's nipping them at the butt. Weirdly, 246 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: we're talked about the right way to say that off air, like. 247 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: Three, I think we got there. But no, you're right, 248 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: he's ascribing a certain connection to but you know, one 249 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 2: could also argue that certain clergy might take issue with 250 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: him even connecting these types of pursuits with Christianity as well. Well, 251 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: you see what he's doing for their feathers begetting ruffled. 252 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: It's true. It was the first substantial astrological text written 253 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: in the English language rather than Latin, making the study 254 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: of the stars accessible to everyone as opposed to just 255 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: these small, highly educated elites groups of elites. Rather, it 256 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: was incredibly popular, as it remains to this day and 257 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: it has not gone out of print. Yeah, this is cool. 258 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: This is like the Vulgate Bible, you know. Now it's 259 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: power to the people. We're kind of democratizing the analysis 260 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: of the Heavens and Lily's book along with his you know, 261 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: yearly predictive pamphlets, they make him more and more popular. 262 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: He's becoming kind of like a Neil deGrasse Tyson figure. 263 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: You know, he is a go to expert when people 264 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: are looking for an authoritative voice about the subject. They're 265 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: inevitably quoting William Lily and he you know, it makes 266 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: sense because in a time where where books are way 267 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: less common, he is selling thirty thousand copies a year 268 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: of these pamphlets. And he also, as we mentioned, he 269 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: specializes in horrory astrology. This this is what fuels his 270 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: client work because this is nuts, right, So imagine this 271 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: path to success. You've got you've got a book which 272 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: is like a master work, and then you've got an 273 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: annual zine essentially that anybody can buy, right if they 274 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: can afford it. And then if they have more money 275 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: and more interest, you can commission this guy to specifically 276 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: work for you. You can become his client, and that 277 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: ultimately leads to the case we're going to discuss today. 278 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: But no what see, we return to what we set 279 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: up at the top. We talked about horory astrology as 280 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: a sect, and you talked about the Islamic Golden Age. 281 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: Can we break that down a little? 282 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we sure can. Horrari which is a Latin term 283 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: that means of the hour. It's a type of astrology 284 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: involving ancient divination techniques. As far as we can tell, 285 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: these were largely developed in the eighth and ninth centuries 286 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: by Persian and Arab astrologers and what is called the 287 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: Islamic Golden Age, which again is the kind of stuff 288 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: that's fully on display at that Museum of Islamic Culture, 289 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: a fascinating place if you ever get a chance to visit. 290 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: The technique of horrory. By the way, horology is the 291 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: study of time or like if you're talking about watches 292 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: and stuff, that's the term that gets used, so that 293 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: makes sense. This particular technique is used in a very 294 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: functional and practical manner to answer questions such as should 295 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: I marry this person, will I get this job? Or 296 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: where's my dear sweet lost dog Fido. There are meant 297 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 2: to be tangible answers that present themselves relatively quickly, which 298 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: makes this a method that the average person can kind 299 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: of wrap their head around. It's pretty impressive and easily 300 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 2: accessible form of astrology for those reasons. 301 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, This practicality of predictability is a huge win 302 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: for the audience, right, especially when you feel that the 303 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: results are coming true. Right, you get an answer to 304 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: your question, should I marry this person? Will I get 305 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: this job? What the heck? What is philo up? To. 306 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: When you get those immediate answers, it further galvanizes you 307 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: toward that belief. So this is good for business. This 308 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: is also good for the defense of this type of 309 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: astrology as a pursuit. It has a ton of rules, 310 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: which a lot of these disciplines do. So these rules 311 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: include like specific conditions that you have to meet before 312 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: you can cast an astrological chart and get a real answer. 313 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: You have to have guidelines for what makes a chart 314 00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: or reading readable. And sometimes if you don't obey these rules, you, 315 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: as the astrologer or the diviner, get what Ames calls 316 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: a magic eight ball message, wherein you're told to try 317 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: another day. William Lilly, to his credit, breaks this down 318 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: in a very understandable, step by step series of instructions. 319 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: He says, here's how you choose what is significant. Here's 320 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: how you evaluate what he calls dignity. Here's how you 321 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: judge your outcomes. How do we interpret the data that 322 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: we are driving And it's from his mind. As far 323 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: as we can tell, he is not a stake oil salesman. 324 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: This is crucial. He is not trying to grift people. 325 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: He wants to pay, be paid honestly for his work, 326 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: but he believes in what he's doing as well. 327 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, so he is. 328 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: Not thinking of his clients or his reading audience as 329 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of marks and roobs. He is being truthful 330 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: and sincere, and he's prizing his own integrity unlike a 331 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of practitioners of the spiritual movement, you know, of 332 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: the I believe early what. 333 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: Is it eighteen hundreds, I want to say, we did 334 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: an episode on every Osophist Theosophus, and a lot of 335 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: it was smoking literal smoke, and mirrors, Pepper's ghost type 336 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: effects and all, you know, in an effort to grift 337 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: people who were in mourning potentially out of their money. 338 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: Which was one of my favorite episodes or series that 339 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: we had with our nemesis, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiz Your. 340 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: That is what that call. 341 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he hates those guys. I feel like he must 342 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: have gotten he must have been taken in by a 343 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: seos at some point earlier in life, because he's like 344 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: Harry Hodini in his approbrium towards those people. So as 345 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: he could tell from all this all this characterization, our 346 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: guy will lily, which is a fun phrase to say, 347 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: was Willie Lil's perfectly. He was quite accomplished. He was 348 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: considered very very good at this, and he was also 349 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: considered more importantly, very very accurate. Now we've established this guy, 350 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people are pinning their future hopes and 351 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: fears on his system and his take on the passage 352 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: of the planets and the stars. But what happens when 353 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: he starts applying his discipline to his own life, to 354 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: his own personal problems. You know, this is, by the way, 355 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: a shout out to everybody who has been desperately waiting 356 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: for a FedEx or Amazon or USPS delivery. I gotta 357 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: tell you, guys, Noel Max. Nothing quite screws up your 358 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: day like having a package delivered. 359 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: That you have to sign for. Oh, and you just 360 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: miss it. You've been planning around it. They come in 361 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: that exact ten minutes that you rushed off to go, 362 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, grab some milk at the store or something 363 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: like that. Happens every time. Happens every time, Yeah, it 364 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: happens every time. 365 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: You know, you'll do your best to get your tracking number, 366 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: You're maybe arranging to stay at home for that day, 367 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: and then you get these cryptic messages like out for delivery. 368 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: Will it be today and will it be six pm? 369 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: You'll have to wait and see. Get a sleeping bag 370 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: lay out by the door, listen for the bell. Yeah exactly. 371 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: Or maybe my FedEx guy is like a magic riddle gobblets. 372 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 2: You talk like that. That's just pretty spooky. Man. 373 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: He's got a lot of allure. 374 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 2: You know, you got to meet him. 375 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: He's a good hang. You just never know when he's 376 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: going to show up. 377 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: Now, that's fair. Well. In February of sixteen thirty eight, 378 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: old Willy Lil's was awaiting a ship of fish and 379 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: very specific type of onions ben Portuguese onions, the finest 380 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: of onions, to be delivered to his home. However, instead 381 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: of being greeted by a smiling delivery person bearing fish 382 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: and onions, he was instead greeted by an apologetic warehouse 383 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: employee who informed him that the warehouse had in fact 384 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 2: been burgled. His stresses fish were gone. Yeah, we love 385 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: a good heist, right for anyone else, it wouldn't have 386 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: been that big a deal. He would have moved on 387 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: with his life, you know, knowing that he could probably 388 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: acquire these fish and onions another time. But no, he 389 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: would not be swayed with the power of the cosmo, 390 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: set his beck and call. He did what any astrological 391 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 2: master would do. He cast a chart in order to 392 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: locate his missing items and catch the thief in the act. Well, 393 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: I guess the act had been done, so he would 394 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: have the very least catch him at hand. 395 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like you saying, kind of a nonlinear approach. 396 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: Not just let me figure out what will happen, but 397 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 1: what did happen. So now I'm knowing not just the future, 398 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: but the past and the present. And this is this 399 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: is fascinating because often we don't think of astrology, at 400 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: least us filthy casuals. We don't think of astrology in 401 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: this manner. 402 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: Well, it does remind me though of you know, some 403 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: programs that the CIA has done astral projection and things 404 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: like that Psychic Stargate and all of that. A shout 405 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: out to Russell targ and the training psychic Spies. What 406 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: was it called Third Eye Spies I believe was the 407 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: name of that man's book. Fascinating dude, excellent synthesis of 408 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: the mystical and the scientific. But this really does have 409 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: the feel of that, like using sort of mystical pursuits 410 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: to solve a crime. 411 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is exciting stuff. And we'll see how 412 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: this becomes increasingly cinematic if we go to sources like 413 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: four Faces number four Faces dot Com. Will see that 414 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: this type of astrology that William Lily is practicing tells 415 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: us that to find the fish and onion thief, you 416 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: have to find what we call the right significator. A 417 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: significator is the planet that represents the guilty party. And 418 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: this is like when we talk about dignity in this discipline, 419 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: we're not using dignity the same way you would and 420 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: commonplace parlance. We're talking about the nature characteristics of these planets. 421 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: So this guy is saying, how do I He's essentially saying, 422 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: how do I profile this thief whom I don't know. 423 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about this person other than that 424 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: they were in a warehouse that they robbed at some point. 425 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: And may smell of onions and fish. 426 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: They probably have, yeah, some aromatic indicators. So what he 427 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: finds in his reading it is investigation, is the planet 428 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: Jupiter without strength sits in what we call an angular 429 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: position in scorpio, which is a water sign. Meanwhile, concurrently, 430 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: the moon which you know the moon from earlier. It 431 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: is in the ascendant in its own dignity, which to 432 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: him suggests that this is a worthwhile investigation, that the 433 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: thief will be discovered. Now, for a lot of us 434 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: non astrology experts, this does sound like a lot of 435 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: very specific nomenclature. So how do we break this down? 436 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: Noll for we the average, Yes, the average, the unwashed, 437 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: the unlearned. This isn't the moon really kind of insane 438 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: upon itself a little bit, ben It's always there, you know, 439 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: they're shining brightly. I like it's early work. 440 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: I do too, I do too, And I like the 441 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: way it changes, you know, it's it's fun, it's changeable. 442 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: It's way better than the sun. 443 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: I don't got don't even get me started about the sun. 444 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: Talk about. 445 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 446 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: So, Jupiter naturally rules the wealthy and noble classes, and 447 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: Lily wasn't naive. A fella burgling warehouses to steal fish 448 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: was unlikely a member of the upper crust. So he 449 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: took a deeper look at what Jupiter's position may have 450 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: actually been hinting at. And here's where Lily's genius, at 451 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: least interpreting interpreting this stuff comes in, and I don't 452 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 2: think we make any secrets. Ben, You and I are 453 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: a little skeptical about this type of thing, so just 454 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: come right out and say it. But I do think 455 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: both of us find these sorts of patterns and the 456 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: intuition involved in sussing out those kinds of patterns fascinating. 457 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: And I think sometimes being accurate quote unquote says more 458 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: about the interpreter than it does about the methods. 459 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very well put, Noel, and I think I 460 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: would agree with that. Of course, where'd I hear to 461 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: yuck anybody's yo? But Lily, through his you could anthropologists 462 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: might even call it a cultural framework. Right through his 463 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: framework and his perspective, he encounters what he interprets as 464 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: an unmistakable pattern. He says, okay, Jupiter might be the 465 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: significator of our thief. It is in scorpio again, that's 466 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: a water sign. And he says, I'm looking at something 467 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: I call the part of fortune, and the part of 468 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: fortune is occurring at seventeen degrees of cancer. And he says, oh, well, cancer, 469 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: like scorpio, is another water sign. So in this chart 470 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm making, this means that the part of fortune is 471 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: representing my missing fish and Portuguese onions. You know, that's 472 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: my treasure. And he goes well, also in my chart, 473 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: in my divination, here I see Mercury, the ruler of 474 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: the second house, and he says, the ruler of the 475 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: second this means my possessions, and that Mercury is in 476 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: Pisces at this point, and boom, boom boom, I've got 477 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 1: three water sign So everything I'm seeing in this pattern 478 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: leads me to think of water and these goods, these 479 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: fish and these fancy Portuguese onions. They're transported to me 480 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: by river. 481 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: So the thief has to be. 482 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: Connected somehow to the water, right some probably not a 483 00:32:59,280 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: rich dude. 484 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: Again, I'm leaning on intuition here and also kind of 485 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: somewhat obvious factors, right, like the water is how these 486 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: goods would have been transported. I don't know that having 487 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: the water signs necessarily is the one thing alone that 488 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: made him make that connection. 489 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting because he also says, Okay, he's 490 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: a believer, right, He's a believing He's not a grifter. 491 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: He genuinely, he genuinely is a practitioner this discipline. So 492 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: everything that he again is the national expert is finding 493 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: is telling him, whomever this thief is, they are not wealthy, 494 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: They're somehow connected to the river. They probably have a job, 495 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: so therefore they probably work around the river. And the fish, 496 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: he reasons, must be stored somewhere associated with water. 497 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: And then I'm sorry, the actual quote from the piece 498 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: of the fish he reasoned must be in some place moist. 499 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: You think, Yeah, they definitely start. I know, I'm coming 500 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: down on this guy a little bit. But again, I 501 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: keep HARKing back to the fact that dude is a 502 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 2: believer in this methodology, and he also does appear to 503 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: just kind of be a pretty good little detective. 504 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we always talk about that too. You know, 505 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: it's so easy for it's easy, and it's incorrect for 506 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: people in the modern day to dismiss the intelligence of 507 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: people from the past just because they're explaining something through 508 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: a different framework does not invalidate their intelligence or their 509 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: deductive abilities. And this is where it gets even more 510 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: interesting because in this reading where you know, I agree 511 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: with you here, Noel, in this reading, the wave characterized 512 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: it so far, it sounds like he's just saying basic stuff, 513 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: you know, fish and water. But he gets he gets 514 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: more specific, he gets into what Corporate America would call 515 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: it granular details. He's reading. His reading, based on his interpretation, 516 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: tells him more about the thief in question. He says, Okay, 517 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: this is probably a bigger guy, a robust figure. He 518 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: probably has fair skin. He probably has skin reddish blonde 519 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: of ham Yes, And he says, bigger dude because of Jupiter. 520 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: And he says fair skin and reddish blonde hair because 521 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: of a combination of Jupiter and Mars. And then he 522 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: says he probably whomever this thief may be has recently 523 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: moved house. 524 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: That's pretty cool, man. I don't know it's it's definitely 525 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: it's some jinkies type stuff. So the downside here is 526 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: the chart indicated sadly that Lily would indeed find his goods, 527 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 2: but they would not be in an appropriate condition for 528 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 2: him to enjoy them. So whether he decided that a 529 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: little was better than none, or simply thought that it 530 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 2: would be just a good exercise, you know, a good 531 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: proof of concept, We're not one hundred percent sure what 532 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: his intentions there were, but done the last the hunt, 533 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 2: the game was a foot fish fish. 534 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, the game was a fish. And also shout out 535 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: to William Lily for being such a fancy boy. We 536 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: know there were regular onions. Dude, you didn't have to 537 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: get Portuguese. 538 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: No, no, you know, if he's gonna have funky breath, 539 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: it's gonna be in style. Right, do you speak Portuguese? 540 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: No, but after lunch, I'll breathe it. So on the 541 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: broad strokes are mapped out in this chart. Lily goes 542 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: to the streets like a like a good old fashioned 543 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: gulb shoe detective, even though gum shoe wasn't a term 544 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: for centuries. 545 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly, he's putting shoe to pavement. He is 546 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 2: out there, you know, rattling cages. 547 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he is. Uh, he's got his boots 548 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: on the ground, as as we would later say, So. 549 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 2: What would they have been? What would he have been 550 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 2: likely wearing? What sort of footwear? Some sort of boot? 551 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: I imagine a sandal? Yeah, what do they hows those 552 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 2: long pointy pointless shoes. Yeah, yeah, all right, I'm trying 553 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 2: to I'm just trying to set the scene here. I 554 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: got to know what kind of footwear we're talking. 555 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: Exactly, and he uh so he does whatevery smart investigative 556 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: journalist or detective would do. He says, I gotta go 557 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: meet the people, you know what I mean, kiss the 558 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: hands and shake the babies and so on. So he 559 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: starts asking around, and he goes down to the river right, 560 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: goes down to where people are working in the markets 561 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: and what have you, and he starts asking for He's going, hey, 562 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: it's me William Lily. And they're like, what the famous 563 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: astrologer William Lily. And he goes the very same look 564 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: upon my sand bills. Tell me, do you know anybody 565 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: in the area that you would describe as burly, redheaded, 566 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: good at fishing, who recently moved? And sure enough, eventually 567 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: several people tell him that there was a matching suspect, 568 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: somebody who fit the description, who had just moved into 569 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: the area and had a reputation for sticky fingers. 570 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: Oh no, he was in No, he was. He was 571 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 2: a usual suspect. He was gosh, okay, I'm not gonna 572 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 2: poopoo any further, Lily approached the local magistrate in order 573 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 2: to attain a search warrant. I didn't know an individual 574 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: could just get a search warrants. That's pretty The rules 575 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 2: are a little different back then, it was granted without hesitation, 576 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 2: of course, to your point, band thanks to his profile 577 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: and social cachet. Along with they provided him a bailiff 578 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 2: in order to you know, protect him and potentially strong 579 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 2: arm the suspect, who was apparently quite robust. 580 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: Ah, yes, yes, chunky boy. So from Willie's perspective, his 581 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: chart was one hundred percent accurate. His reading held true. 582 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: They go and find this alleged thief, and in the 583 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: thief's possession they find the fish, and they ask the 584 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: thief about this, and the guy says, okay, all right, 585 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: you got me, you got me. I'm handsome, I'm robust, 586 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: I'm reddish, blonde, I stole the fish. 587 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 2: Where handsome come from? 588 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: Well, he's you know, always be closing right, fair, fair face. 589 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: I like picturing that too, Like he's not pitching himself 590 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: as he's getting arrested, ravishing. Yes, he the thief unnamed 591 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: says that I ate most of the fish already. Look, 592 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: I've got my family here with me. This is my wife, 593 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: and the wife is probably like, he's not that ravish, 594 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: and so Lily says, what happened to my Portuguese onions? 595 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: And the spouse says, well, we made a soup out 596 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: of them. But you know what, we'll let you keep 597 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: because you are such a good astrologer, because you were 598 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: such a talented detective. Please don't arrest us. We'll give 599 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: you the rest of the fish. 600 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or the rest of everything. I guess there 601 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 2: was a little bit remaining of the onions too, potentially, 602 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 2: And I love the idea that, like, she just didn't 603 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 2: know that these were not the kind of onions you 604 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 2: would just boil into a soup, you know, No, these 605 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 2: are meant to be consumed in other ways. I'm sure why. 606 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: I mean, it was such a red flag. That's a 607 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 2: faux pot to use Portuguese onions. How about you could 608 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 2: make a dope French onion or Portuguese onion soup. Yeah, 609 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 2: like I bet. 610 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, you know, we have to exercise empathy. Stealing 611 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: is wrong, But I feel kind of bad for the 612 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: thief to your point about his spouse not knowing where 613 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: he got the onions and the fish. It's kind of 614 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: like when kids get in trouble. This happens often in 615 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: the United States. 616 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 2: Still, when. 617 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: Underage kids get in trouble or high school kids, you 618 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: know they're they're not old enough to I guess drink 619 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: or you know, they get caught trespassing, raising cane and 620 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: so on. Local law enforcement will often say, look, man, 621 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: we can book you, or we can call your parents, 622 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: and not to not to tell tales out of school. 623 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: This sounds like a situation where Lily and the bailiff 624 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: were like, hey, man, your wife is gonna punish you 625 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: way more than we ever could. So it seems sleeping 626 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: on the couch, who knows how long think you in 627 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: the doghouse, indeed in the fish house, in the Onion mansion. 628 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: This case proved too astrology believers to be a lasting 629 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: example on how to correctly read horrory charts, and if 630 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 1: you are an astrology student you will probably learn about 631 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: this case in your studies. Thanks so much for tuning in, folks, 632 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams, 633 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our brand new research associate Ames Doyle. 634 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: Look for more of their work on the way in 635 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: the future, and as my pal Noll said, maybe Ames 636 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: will grace us with their appearance. 637 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 2: On air Away. Huge thanks to Ames for me as well, 638 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Jonathan strickland Ish. These are sort of 639 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 2: a fish and onion in human form. That's too harsh. 640 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 2: He's a good for nothing, too harsh. He's a roth Jonathan, 641 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 2: He's a bit of a He's a scamp. He's a 642 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 2: bit of a scamp. A j Bahamas Jacobs, the Puzzler 643 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: and of course that was Jonathan Strickland aka the quiz Turn. 644 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: And chout out to our rude dudes over a Ridiculous crime. 645 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: If you dig us, you will love them. You can 646 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: also hear our pal, one of the creators and co 647 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: hosts of Ridiculous Crime, Zeron Burnett, showing up on Behind 648 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: the Bastards not to be missed and the Big Big 649 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,320 Speaker 1: Things to you, Man. I know that you and I 650 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: are not are not learned astrologers ourselves, but these stories 651 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: are always so interesting and as you said, we love 652 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: a heist. 653 00:43:54,080 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 2: Ah who doesn't. We'll see you next time, folks. For 654 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 655 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.