1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's episode nine Hunting Collective. Thanks for joining 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: us this week. Phil and Iron Bozeman, Montana. I am back, 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: better than ever, best year ever, Hunting Collective. My son 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: was born four days ago as August O'Brien, So I'm 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: back in the saddle man. I'm inspired. You'll hear that 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: soon before we get into that. Uh, there's a lot 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: going on in this episode. We got James Swan, PhD. 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk to him about a lot of things. 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: We talked about his acting career, his book Hunting Is 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: a Sacred Art, his book The Defense of Hunting, his documentaries, 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: his book A War in the Woods, they wrote with 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: John Norris about their time um together fighting the cartel 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: in America's public lands and their marijuana grows. So this 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: guy has done a lot. Uh, I've done a lot, 15 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot lives one of the more interesting guys. Kind 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: of reminds me of a more theatrical um maybe Valarious 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Geist or something like that. I mean, he's done done 18 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: a ton and just in the media realm within hunting. 19 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: So you're gonna enjoy James Swan coming up. We also 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: have Miles Nolte and Joe Fernado's back to talk about 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: the two teenagers that were charged animal cruel Team p A. 22 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: We talk maybe talk about a lot in this talk 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: about lab based meats. It's a long intro, but it's 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: not really no, I know it's not. It's like a 25 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: whole podcast first half of the episode, the whole podcast. 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: We did a full podcast, then another fool pod stuffed 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: stuffed with content, stuff with content. So we got a 28 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: lot there for you. We just got a lot build 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: up after all this time, and so we're gonna talk 30 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: to you about a lot of things. Also, a guy 31 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: killed a coyote in New Hampshire with his bare hands. 32 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: He may or may not be a Bond villain. Yeah, 33 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: my commentary, Anger's Phil. Phil gets angry. I do. He's 34 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: still angry. He's just look at his eyes, get a 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: certain anger and his But before all of that comes 36 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: to you, you want to go to New Zealand. You 37 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: want to hunt tar. You want to do it maybe 38 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: with me, maybe you don't want to do with me, 39 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: but you would probably take it anyway. But but you 40 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: have no choice, I really have no choice. You have 41 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: to pay for otherwise this one is free. First Light, 42 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: go to First light that and go to their homepage. 43 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Scrolled down, you'll find the Wind Hunt in New Zealand 44 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: with Ben O'Brien from the Hunting Collective. Um, we're gonna 45 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: go with Southern Lakes and Farti's our friends over there 46 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: on the South Island, New Zealand. And if you win 47 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: this hunt, you're gonna get a price package full first 48 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: like kit, a weather Remark five, weather Mark LT and 49 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: a bench made altitude knife, among probably other things. And 50 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: I haven't told first like this, but I'm doing it anyway. 51 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: If you win and you're well spoken, which I'm sure 52 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: you will be, we're gonna have you on the podcast. 53 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: We're going to start talking about your experience, You're how 54 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: you're getting ready. We're gonna have to to get in shape, Phil. 55 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: This is a rough hunt, done a couple of times. 56 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: It's up and down, a lot of elevation, gain a 57 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: lot of long shots. We're gonna have to practice with 58 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: our riffles. We're gonna get sighted in with our weather 59 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: be rifles and be ready to go take on New Zealand. 60 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: It's great hunt. It's one of my favorite hunts that 61 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: I've done around the world. I'm excited to do it 62 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: again this may with one of you. So if you 63 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: go first light dot com an enter, you'll have a 64 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: chance to do all that with me. I'm very much 65 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: looking forward to. As I said last time, I'm honored. 66 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: Last time I gave out a link that I don't 67 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: think worked. Let's just go to the website first light 68 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com and scroll down you'll find it. It's a 69 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: picture a guy looking like he's in New Zealand's right there, 70 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: and it says when a tar hunt. Yeah. I was 71 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: looking at that. I was like, oh, is that picture 72 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: of you? No, No, it's not. No, No, that guy's 73 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: looking just a guy having a great time in New Zealand. 74 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: That guy is looking at me maybe across the way. 75 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: Oh that's good. Maybe I'm lost. Yeah, he's trying to 76 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: help you out. We should give the listeners a lot 77 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: of confidence in hunting with you. I'm gonna saying we're 78 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: not gonna get lost, We'll have it. Well, I'm pretty talkative. 79 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: That's about the only thing I'd really bring to it. 80 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: Amateur hunter better brand. All right, Well, we got a 81 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: long one. This one is packful of stuff. It goes 82 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: all over the place. But I think it's a good one, 83 00:03:52,800 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: So strap in for episode. Here we go. Hey, everybody, 84 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: welcome to episode. Joe is saying that we I never 85 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: remember the number or or people's names. I mispronounced their names. Okay, 86 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: this is very self aware podcast, Miles. We're self aware. 87 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: We know what our faults on. Listen. Everybody makes mistakes. 88 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: You must own them, must tell them. So this is episode. 89 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: We're pretty sure and uh, I'm back. They're welcome. Cut that. Well, 90 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: I'm back and I have a child or a second child. 91 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: We did it. Thank you for all the support out 92 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: there and listener land Um, I am off social media. 93 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: Did delete Instagram from my phone. Um, but I'm not 94 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: gonna lie. I went on the website one time to check, 95 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: let's see what was going on, to make sure the 96 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: world hadn't ended. Yeah, I don't know about it. I 97 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, Instagram, so why you may have 98 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: see that I've been on there. But I'm supposed to 99 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: be in a blackout period to spend more time with 100 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: my family and you guys, So no, don't win with us. 101 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: That's a terrible idea. Just just the family. Well, everybody, 102 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: and here's father we've had Joe Fernado you're the only 103 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: non father. Miles Nolte is a father. Phil Taylor father father. 104 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: That's what they tell me, Phil Taylor father. But then 105 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: the children they have to remind me. They're like, you're 106 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: my dad. Does anybody I felt when when you have 107 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: the kid? Right, I'm very reflective individual. I think a 108 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: lot about things, as you guys made near listening, and 109 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: so when the when the kid came, I was just 110 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: really struck. I was like the beauty of life and 111 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: I was, you know, just reflecting on what life means 112 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: and life and death and looking at this little baby 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: baby open his eyes. I look at the baby that 114 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: we have a moment, and I start feeling super emotional 115 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: and I started writing in my computer. I wrote like 116 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: five thousand words about life, and I felt like do 117 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: other people do that? Phil? Did you ever? Did you 118 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: feel that emotional and reflective at the time of the 119 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: birth of your children? I did, but apparently not not enough, 120 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: because I didn't write a manifesto about how incredibly precious, 121 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: uh there are experiences on this planet heartless. I definitely 122 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: did did amount. In the hospital, for sure. I wrote one. 123 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: I remember reading one complete essay that was sort of 124 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: like it seemed to make sense in my sleep deprived brain. 125 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: I should go back and see if it makes any sense. 126 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: But you know, I'll be honest what I do. And 127 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: I started doing this as soon as Amy knew she 128 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: was pregnant. I've been writing letters to my kid in 129 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: the future, and I have like a whole store of 130 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: letters to him that like are really more about my experience, 131 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: Like I don't really care he won't get any of 132 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: it anyway, but it's more like my journal of fatherhood. 133 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: But but having him as sort of the muse for it. Yeah, 134 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: and you know, if if looking bad, if he's able 135 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: to read that when he becomes filed one day, if 136 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: that is to happen, like, yeah, there'll be some value 137 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: in there maybe or maybe it'll hate me by this 138 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: more like I don't want to listen to your ships. 139 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: Burned this book very possible. Yeah, that's true. I did 140 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: the same thing. I got a little leather journal when 141 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: I was traveling a lot, going on hunts all over 142 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: the place, and I would just write in it at night, 143 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: laying at tend or whatever. Right, And I still do 144 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: that now. Um, I think it's important. And if you're 145 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: not gonna be Joe, you'll experience this one day. So 146 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: you're getting married soon, Joe. So kids, does Calvin want 147 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: to have kids? She does, She does soon enough, she 148 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 1: has an exact number. Wait till you get you don't 149 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: want to be outnumbered. I'm just gonna tell you that, right, 150 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: That's what I said. That's what I said, unless unless 151 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna get you know, another husband or wife in 152 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: the mix, which you know, no judgment, but I wouldn't 153 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: suggest no. I just didn't see it going no. Sure, yeah, 154 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: I just didn't see that. I didn't see that going 155 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: that way. But that's fine. I'm not judging any buddy 156 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: for their choices. You gotta move to Utah. But as 157 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: long as everybody is a willing participant in the situation, 158 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm fine with it. I'm into as long as you're 159 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: all happy. So anyway that's gonna when that happens to you, 160 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: I think that's the appropriate time to be inspired about life, 161 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: to reflect on life, and to be I think that's appropriate. 162 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: But I think I maybe took a little bit overboard. 163 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: I also think that that level of exhaustion for me anyway, 164 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: puts me in a space where I'm I'm hyper nostalgic 165 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: and and everything feels really important right, And I think 166 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: that the thoughts that I'm having are monumental, and writing 167 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: them down just really poses an opportunity for future me 168 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: to look back and go, what God's name were? Utah. 169 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: The first three months are just it's kind of like 170 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: a hallucinatory haze for many reasons. People say you should 171 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: take d m T. I'm like, I'm not on it, 172 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: but I'm on it, like I'm feeling way. I just 173 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: hold on because whose contact you going? You know? What 174 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: you should do d MT like no one, No one 175 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: is reached out. Sure, there's a guy who might listen 176 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: to this. I can't remember his name. I think it's 177 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: a Mansell is doing a psychedelics and hunting documentary, so 178 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: he's often invited me to go on Aawaska Vision journeys 179 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: throughout Central America. Uh so, yeah, people that might happen. 180 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll do that one day. But it's a recurring 181 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: theme on your podcast. I ask it in d m T, 182 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: so it has to I'm interested in it, but I 183 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: figured I have a similar imagine. What I'm feeling now 184 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: is very similar to I've never done d MT, so 185 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: I can't. Last night, I got about two hours of 186 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: sleep in twenty minute increments, and so Miles knows what 187 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: you know what that's like? Phil, Yes, can you hear 188 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: it in my voice? I can't, Honestly, I I can 189 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: hear it in your voice a little bit, But you 190 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: don't know you You look great, You're pretty well put together, 191 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: look like you don't look like a new dad. And 192 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: take that as a compliment, you know. Thanks guys, All right, 193 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: let's get to the show. Thanks everybody for the well 194 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: which is just seriously is helpful. It means a lot 195 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: in these times. Um as I sit here and reflect 196 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: on everything I've got and how lucky I am. And again, 197 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: let's just just thank a nurse, specifically nurses in this case, 198 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: but also doctors. Um I was very struck by. I 199 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: won't go the whole story. They're doing a C section 200 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: on my wife while talking about their favorite shows on TV, 201 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: and I thought I was standing there having an emotional breakdown. 202 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: My wife is in the and the doctors like this 203 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: is We've done this four times today and it it 204 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: that alone put me in the mindset of what they 205 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: do is amazing. But that's their everyday life. They go 206 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: and do amazing work a lot of times life saving work, 207 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: definitely life giving work, every single day, multiple times a day. UM, 208 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: and I podcast. I told every nurse that came in, 209 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know how you do what you do. 210 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: I have a podcast, And some one of them said 211 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: podcasts are hard. No one's going to die. Don't say that, 212 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: you promise there's nothing. But I was interested in their 213 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: Netflix commentary during the C section. They're all into that 214 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: documentary Don't Funk with Cats, which we're going to talk 215 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 1: about in a second. Actually, that's a good transition to 216 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: what we're gonna talk about next, and that is UM too. 217 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: You'll find out to last week, Miles, you were here. 218 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: But last week we talked about the two teenagers in 219 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania who are being charged with animal cruelty, among other things, 220 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: based on a video they posted on Snapchat. Now, we 221 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: got a lot of, as you can imagine, a lot 222 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: of reaction to our conversation. UM. A couple of people 223 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: called me out for not getting it, and I think 224 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: that was because everybody in the room felt Lakada, Anthiokata, 225 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: Phil and Joe felt that UM harsh punishers were necessary. 226 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: I feel like that too. I was just a little 227 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: bit worried and still am worried about the vitriol and 228 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: social media is that it gets to be hyperbolic, it 229 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: gets to be very intense. People are calling these teenagers monsters, 230 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: which they're very well maybe monsters, But it was just 231 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: worries me that that language just turned around all to 232 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: come alto commonly within this stuff. People are are rushing 233 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: to demonize these folks, and as we found out Joe 234 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: from doing a little research, there's not a whole lot 235 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: of redeeming qualities in these two young men. No, there's 236 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: a lot more too the videos than what a lot 237 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: of the general public saw. Yeah, so I got an email, 238 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: I got I said a couple of messages. People are 239 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: saying that I didn't get it, that I will, that 240 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: I didn't want to just string these kids up in 241 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: the in the town square, and I didn't want to 242 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: run out the normal anger outrage on social media and 243 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: use all that language that everyone likes to use, calling 244 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: the monsters talent, saying they should get the maximum punishments. 245 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: The court of public opinion and outrage, it was pretty 246 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: pretty clear on this one. They kind of have some 247 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: good evidence to go to go on that, but it 248 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: worries me so. But we I got a email for 249 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: someone who wishes to beIN anonymous and he said that 250 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: he signed the petition we talked about and that he 251 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: regretted UM. Among other things, he said the maximum punishment, 252 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: which was what thirty seven years? Joe Adham all up? 253 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: Thirty seven years for the eighteen year old, Yeah, he said, 254 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: he said that that now seems pretty extreme to him. UM, 255 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: but he was one of those emailers that just felt 256 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: they needed to be punished. But that thirty seven years 257 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: the maximum penalty. Now we're not saying that they're going 258 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: to get the maximum penalty. It's very rare. Do that, Um, 259 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: that that judging these kids that harshly this quickly could 260 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: be a mistake. Let's let the judicial system do it's 261 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: do its work. So that's some of the reaction that 262 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: we had. I take this very seriously. I'm not being 263 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: flippant about what I say about the internet reaction. UM, Joe, 264 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: you can tell us what you found out, but first 265 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: tell us what UM the official you talked to? Who 266 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: was it again, Travis Low? What's Travis to Pennsylvania Game Commission? 267 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: He's there? Media contact. So so we reached out to 268 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: Travis or Joe did and Joe you found out a 269 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: little bit about how how Internet outrage and folks sending 270 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: in stuff to the Game Commission fueled the investigation. Yeah, 271 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: that really brought it to the Game Commission's attention. Like, 272 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: without the outrage on social media and everything, they probably 273 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't have known about it. But that was the driving factor. 274 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: It's like people were posting to their Facebook page and 275 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: really pushing for the Game Commission to investigate it. So 276 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: of course they took it upon themselves to do so. Um, 277 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: the Game Commission did, although they conducted a really thorough investigation. 278 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: Lots of people were getting really mad at them that 279 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: didn't just come out with charges and go charge these kids. Um. 280 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: But Travis explained to me that it was really important 281 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: that they went through their investigation, which I think took 282 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: about seven weeks. They did through investigations, making sure that 283 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: these kids were in Pennsylvania, went out there, I went 284 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: to their stands, uh, took their phones, went through their phones, 285 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: saw all the videos, took phones of their friends, took 286 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: phones from friends, anyone who got texted the video that 287 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: they were at least willing to get from the two kids. 288 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: One of them were we got Joe got the Affidavid yep. 289 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: That that detailed the interviews of both both the minor, 290 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: the seventeen year old and the eighteen year old. I 291 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: read them. Um, there's a lot there. They seem not 292 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: to really understand the still when they're being interviewed by 293 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: the game severity, the severity of it. The way that 294 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: it described their reaction is they're kind of excusing it. 295 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never said, I've never seen someone put 296 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: the evidence out there in the public and then try 297 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: to explain it away like a seventeen year old would 298 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: if they got caught breaking, you know, piste up open 299 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: weed by their mom or something. That's this is the 300 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: way that it looks there. So they it's clear even 301 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: reading those aff David's and having the recounting of the 302 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: initial interviews with both the individuals, that they don't get it. Um. 303 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say from what's there, that's 304 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: what I cleaned at least. Yeah, definitely, Um that there 305 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: was a lot a lot that went on there. It 306 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: seemed like they didn't get it. I mean they didn't. 307 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: They obviously weren't in the field prepared. Yeah. Um, and 308 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: supposedly they were just trying to dispatch the animal because 309 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: they were out of animal and didn't have a knife. 310 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: This is the excuse that they're using in the video. 311 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: They're laughing while kicking it in the face, and they 312 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: did this. Details that we have here do no favors 313 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: to these two teenagers. No favors makes them look so 314 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: much worse than the even the actual video does because 315 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: there it doesn't cover contrition, but it doesn't seem like 316 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: there was much. Yeah. Travis informed me too that that 317 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: that deer got up and ran away after the whole 318 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: are deal. Yeah, they never found the deer. They never 319 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: found it was five. He shot it with the seventeen 320 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: year old minor shot it with him, wasn't it. I 321 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: can't remember it? Says the caliber I know that savage 322 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: bush Master. Yeah, so's shooting with the air fifteen modern 323 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: sporting rifle. Um. So he does that and then he drops. 324 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: He has three rounds, three rounds, shoots it once, wounds it, 325 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: and he drops ejects a live round, live cartridge on 326 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: the ground out of the tree sto and then misses 327 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: with that third cartridge that they had and he only 328 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: had three cartridges and no knife. No knife, And so 329 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: then their version of the story goes that then they 330 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: were going to dispatch it here by crushing its wind 331 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: rushing it's windpipe, which somehow includes kicking it in the 332 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: face and laughing. Yeah. Like I'm just telling you, like once, 333 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: once you get into this stuff, the details here and 334 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: read the Affidavid. If you were pissed before, good luck, 335 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: because it is. It's sick. Yeah. Well, and one of 336 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: the main pieces of evidence for um aggravated uh cruelty 337 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: to an animal the one of the felony charges. You 338 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: have to have physical evidence that an animal sustained serious 339 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: bodily injury. And the bit of evidence that the game 340 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: commission has from that is the antler from the deer 341 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: with a chunk of skull plate. Yeah, from the deer. Yeah, 342 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: the deer got away after they That takes a substantial 343 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: amount of force. Substantial and that's I don't know why 344 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: you would be kicking a deer in the face and 345 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: mess some of his antlers if you're trying to dispatch it. Les. 346 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: Have you seen this video? I have intentionally not seen 347 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: this video. You really don't want to. I don't, And 348 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm fully aware that I don't want to see this 349 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: video and I still don't. Um. I'm I'm obviously aware 350 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: of the situation because we're covering it. Um. And you know, 351 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: I think my initial response is similar to your has 352 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: been in that Find me a teenager who hasn't done 353 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: monstrous things, and I will show you a liar. But 354 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: I also think that there has to be a level 355 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: of accountability for the horrible things we do as teenagers 356 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: that allow us to grow into more mature adults. So 357 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that thirty seven years in 358 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: prison is going to facilitate that shift for either one 359 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: of those, but absurd, uh. But the having said that, 360 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: something needs to happen in order to engender a recognition 361 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: of how awful and wrong this is and why. And 362 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: it seems like something you know, beyond the torching on 363 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: the internet. Oh yeah, beyond that that you know, the 364 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: book is being thrown at them, and there's you know, 365 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: I know Travis was talking to you about there's more 366 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: to the video then what was on social media what 367 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: we've seen, not that there needs to be anymore to it. 368 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: That doesn't really matter. UM. Where this comes to the 369 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: documentary on Netflix called Don't Funk with Cats. Anybody seeing 370 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: this thing? It's real, it's of it. I was going 371 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: to watch it this weekend because so here's here is 372 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: this when the cats eat people? No, No, that would 373 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: be a good documentary. I'll get to that later. Continue 374 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: that's Batman. No, No, there's a new study out. We 375 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: gotta get to that. I at all of stuff to 376 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: get too. Um So, after thinking about this, one of 377 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: the things I thought about is it's it's often. I mean, 378 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: if you read the nine Signs of a serial killer, 379 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: animal abuse is normally one to three. It's in the 380 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: top top indicators if someone's gonna be serial I thought 381 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 1: about that after we recorded. So, you know, though there 382 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: is the danger to society aspect of punishing these people 383 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: that are doing this. I think this falls under that 384 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: kind of material, like that kind of evidence that someone 385 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: is sick and has an issue and is disassociated a 386 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: lot of ways. Um, sociopathic tendencies are there too, So 387 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: I start to think about that. Um, I just stumbled 388 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: on this documentary. So I don't even documentary is a 389 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: good word for it. But whatever it's about. Uh. A 390 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: man who posted online anonymous videos of him killing cats. 391 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: The first one is two kittens in a vacuum seer 392 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: vacuum seal bag. The second one was drowning a kitten 393 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: in a bathtub. The third one, I can't remember the 394 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: exact abuse, but it doesn't matter. Well, there was a 395 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: a large snake and a kitten. So there was a 396 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: bunch of Internet researchers, will call them Internet detectives who 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: got ahold of this stuff. They started a Facebook page. 398 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: They all got together. They started doing their own research 399 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: on who this person was trying to catch them. The 400 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: person was maniacal enough to kind of leave breadcrumbs for 401 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: these folks. He understood the game. Um, it becomes very 402 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: much a a mystery thriller at some point. But then 403 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: it takes a huge turn because the fourth or fifth 404 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: video this person and uploads is him murdering someone Jesus 405 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: stabbing someone to death. Um, and then the whole thing 406 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: turns right. So, as I'm watching this, I'm thinking of 407 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: these kids apples apples, maybe not, but it they covered 408 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: in the documentary. The story really is that that the 409 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: reason it's titled don't Funk with Cats, because that's one 410 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: of the rules of the Internet. But in rules in general, 411 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: it's a sign of that statistic behavior is a sign 412 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: of things to come. This is just one of those 413 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: cases where it made for a I don't know riveting 414 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: is a good way, but it made for an interesting 415 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: documentary about the whole case. They eventually, UM, I won't 416 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: give it away, but that's that's the general premise. As 417 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm watching that, I'm thinking of this and in those 418 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: two things are tied in because if someone's willing to 419 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: do this, willing to laugh while they're abusing an animal, 420 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: wild animal like that, any animal, there's something there. Um, 421 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: So it's worth watching. And I think that's what when 422 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: we talk last time about the federal legislation that that 423 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: Donald Trump signed back in November, it addresses that specifically, 424 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: um as a reason why there should there's a federal 425 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: there's federal legislation to punish people who upload animal cruelty 426 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: cruelty videos on the internet. Now, um, which to be 427 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: you can correct if I'm wrong, Joe. This that is 428 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: not included in the charges against these two individuals, not inclusively. 429 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: The charges are coming directly from Title eighteen from Pennsylvania statutes, 430 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: So it's not federals all states stuff from my understanding, 431 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: which I'm not sure if it is correct, but a 432 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: federal agent would have to bring the charges forward. Certainly 433 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: unfits it certainly fits. Yeah, it certainly, I think something 434 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: that's unsaid so far. Maybe you guys covered this last time. 435 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but um, this is particularly problematic. This 436 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: is the number one reason why this is problematic is 437 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: because it's just awful to see, for me, human beings 438 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: intentionally harming and getting joy from harming an animal. But 439 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: we've also got a problem here of how this reflects 440 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: on the broader hunting community we with with the exception 441 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: of Phil, I mean, Phil Fiel feels a little bit 442 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: of an animal killer, I think, but not really, not 443 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: not really something that he has explored to its fullest extent. 444 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: The three of us have have have killed things, a 445 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: decent number of things, right, And I think from an 446 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: outside perspective, it is easier than we would like to 447 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: admit for someone who is a non hunter and doesn't 448 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: have any any connection to hunting culture to say, well, 449 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: how are you guys any different? You love to kill deer, 450 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: And we have to continually fight to draw a line 451 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: of nuance where no and I don't speak for all hunters, 452 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: but I will say I don't love to kill deer. 453 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: I really love to hunt deer, and I really love 454 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: to eat deer. The killing part is inherent in that 455 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: whole process, and it doesn't for me personally bring me 456 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: a lot of joy. I get joy upon being successful, 457 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: but the actual death part doesn't tickle any any happy 458 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: emotions for me. I've been thinking about this this This 459 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: was another thing. We did talk about this in general 460 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: last time, but I think about it a lot. I 461 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: think about there's like there's an inevitability around regret in 462 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: terms of like how many things I've killed, And you know, 463 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: people might say, oh, I'm a proud hunter. I'll continue 464 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: to be for my entire life, I'm sure. But if 465 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: anybody listen to the first volume of the Best of 466 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: We Had, Wyman Men's are on. He's an older gentleman 467 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: who did a lot of trapping in the seventies and eighties, 468 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: trapped hundreds of coyotes and furbears, sold their pelts to 469 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: pay for his college loans and his pick up and 470 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: pay for his food. So he has, you know, very 471 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: literally a lot of blood on his hands. He talked 472 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: about I asked him flat out, do you ever regret 473 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: any of that? Do you ever have any moments to regret? 474 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: And he said absolutely. Um, he's during that time in 475 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: his life when he was killing a lot for personal gain, 476 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: personal profit. Right. He talks about having a kould the 477 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: trap and seeing this kuyd of give up and no, 478 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: it was coming like no, his life was up. And 479 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: then he talks about going back to his truck and crying. 480 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: And then similar story another kuy out who knew as 481 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: the time was up, who did nothing but fight and 482 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: was in this trap snarling and took a picture of it, 483 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: which he still has and he's shown me and he 484 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: talked just reflecting on that there's regret, he's he has 485 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: regret and then and then there was doubt in the moment, right, 486 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: so there's there should be. One of the beautiful things 487 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: about hunting is it does it pushes that into the 488 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: fore of your mind. You got to think about the 489 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: inevitability of death, what it means to be inflict death 490 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: on some other being. That's one of the things I 491 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: think helps me one know that there is going to 492 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: be regret at some point in my life. But boy, 493 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I'll look back on some of the 494 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: things I've done, I could do it now. Any hunter 495 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: or angler really should should be honest themselves. Like there's 496 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: some stuff I regret. Oh, absolutely, there's some stuff I regret. 497 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: I mean, this was a very rough late season for 498 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: me because this is the first time in my whole 499 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: hunting career that I wounded an animal and didn't recover it. 500 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 1: It's never happened me before. And I think there's some 501 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: level of disassociation that we all have to undergo to 502 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: be able to do what we do right. And so 503 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: we're we're drawing lines in the sand between what is 504 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: acceptable dissociation what isn't right. But you know I would 505 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: be lying it would I wouldn't be sleeping at night 506 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: if I were constantly thinking about I wounded that dear. 507 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: I'm sure it died. I did everything that I personally 508 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: think I could have done to recover it, but it 509 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. The bottom line is I was unable to 510 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: do so. And so last time we had James Tantillo 511 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: on Dr James Tantillo when he talked about the tragic 512 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: knowledge right tragic wisdom, which is the philosophy that hunting 513 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: thrusts upon you this life and death scenario often, and 514 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: it allows you to if you're willing to. In this case, 515 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: like you said, you can disassociate from it and act 516 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: like it's a normal activity. Well, or you can associate 517 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: with it and let it teach you something, because as 518 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: he said and other others have written, that deer you 519 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: kill is not so different than you, That life you've 520 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: taken is not so different than your own life. And 521 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: that's that's a powerful thing that you can accept and 522 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: let inform the way you go through hunting. Like, I 523 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: don't know a lot of people are doing that because 524 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to do. Maybe it's and we 525 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: talked about there. I said this about having a kid. 526 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: There's reflective people and unreflective people. That's okay, But if 527 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna reflect on it, that's a pretty powerful thing 528 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: to think, sit and think about. And for me, it's 529 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: why hunting is compelling and why I think it makes 530 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: me a better person in a lot of ways. Um. 531 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: And so there is that the general thought. These these 532 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: um teenagers haven't gotten that. I didn't have that when 533 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: I was seventeen or eighteen. I can tell you that, Um, 534 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: it's always a complicated one. Now when it comes to 535 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: what's happening. From a legal standpoint, these kids are screwed. 536 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: They very well should be screwed. I mean, the the 537 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: extra investigating we did, Joe did a lot of it 538 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: just put them man even more intensely in the crosshairs 539 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: of They deserve to be punished and punished harshly because 540 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: the affid David is pretty damning. Yeah, yeah, definitely is damning. 541 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: There's there's no part of it that that isn't um. 542 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: It's hard. It's hard, I would say, like to me, 543 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: the best case scenarios this is that that folks on 544 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: the Internet were able to alert the Game Commission, alert authorities, 545 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: make sure they understood it. This is very serious. We 546 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: wanted taken seriously, and they did. They did it what 547 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: from all accounts, a great investigation. Investigation. They listened two 548 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: folks that were trying to alert them to what happened. 549 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: They didn't seem like they were listening to the vitriol. 550 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: They didn't seem like they were allowing that outrage to 551 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: drive them, which I think is where I get off 552 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: the bus, Like put the evidence in their hands and 553 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: and and let them do their job. You know, if 554 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: these kids both gotta slap on the wrist, then you 555 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: can then you can drive the outrage where it's where 556 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: it's intended to the authorities. But in this case, it 557 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: looks like, um, they're gonna get some harsh penalties. Yeah, definitely, 558 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: um more so over the eighteen year old than the 559 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: seventeen year old. But which just silly. That's the that's 560 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: a that's another can of worms. So I feel like 561 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: that's all we're really gonna say on that. I mean it, 562 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: like we said last week, it does go on a 563 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: lot of directions that this conversation leads to a lot 564 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: of things. Um Myles brings up a great point about 565 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: people that don't agree with hunting can look at this 566 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: and see something sinister that they feel is going on 567 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: in our heads anyway. They might feel like this is 568 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: just a manifestation of what we all are thinking. Um, 569 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: that's not true, but there it is. That's the Internet. 570 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: That's how it goes. So we can't really fight fight that. 571 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: So you know, continue righting in with your thoughts about this. 572 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: I appreciate those that wrote in for or against my 573 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: stamp point. It seemed like that what I said got 574 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: some people fired up. That's fine, that's what this is 575 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: all about. But again, we'll we'll have something on the 576 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: Meteria dot com soon. Just kind of go through this 577 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: whole thing and give people, um as many details as 578 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: we can. And I don't think we'll have any opinions 579 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: in that piece, just gonna be facts as we see it, 580 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: just a nice linear accounting of how this happened. Because again, 581 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: go watch that documentary. Don't funk with cats. Don't know 582 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: how watching that, I'm like, it's kind of like work 583 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: to dude's I'm investigated, but that it's it's funny how 584 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: these things come up. It's an entertaining documentary, but it 585 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: it goes to what we're talking about here, So do it, Joe. 586 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: I'll go watch it all right, as long as does 587 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: all my spare time going straight to Netflix. Dude. It's dude, 588 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: it's a it's a four part documentary and I was 589 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: like flipping through them quick because I wasn't sleeping, Um, Joe. 590 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: Then a man in New Hampshire strangle to kyote to death. 591 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: He did, and you were you report that. There's a lot. 592 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: This is another one where it's not just you could 593 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: just write the news story. But there's some other stuff 594 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: in here that reading your article that I discovered that 595 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: I thought was pretty crazy, namely that this man was 596 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: out on a hike. Is that correct, Joe, a little hike, 597 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: the hikers family, wife, make kids, three three kids, and 598 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: you said three numbered, out numbered, out numbered, and that's 599 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: when the rabidet That's exactly they're picking off the Darwin. 600 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: Thanks Charles Son of any Wow. That's sorry about that anyhow, 601 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: UM tells the story. Joe at least get a started. 602 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, so ian o'reiley out hiking with his family 603 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: and a coyote UM believe to be your dabod hasn't 604 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: been tested yet, hasn't come back positive from the testing yet. 605 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: Uh attacked his young son, grabbed him by his snow 606 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: jacket and pulled him to the ground. Mom was able 607 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: to separate the two and dad put him in between 608 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: and was victim of some aggressive attacks from that ky 609 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: of multiple He was bitten, bitten in the arm. Yeah, 610 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: and then he put him to the ground, showed him 611 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: in the snow, and he was able to strangle him, 612 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: put his knee up on his rib cage and stuff, 613 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: and hand around his his windpipe, and strangle him. It 614 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: took about ten minutes. That's some intimate violence, right, ten minutes. 615 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: And if the video of the guy, he looks like 616 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: he might be in the mafia or something. He looks 617 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: you think so, I don't know. He's from New Hampshire. 618 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: He seemed like suburban look at the video like a 619 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: nice guy. He looked like he might have he might 620 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: have done some violets in his life. Look at him. 621 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: He's got like slick back hair. He's the way. He's 622 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: a badass. Um, he is, phil What do you do 623 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: on it? That's you have two young children? Are you 624 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: choking that card out? Okay? In the in this picture 625 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: on CNN, Yes, he does. Look at that he looks 626 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: like a James Bond villain. Oh, he does. Very handsome. Handsome, Yeah, 627 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: like a stubble like a He looks like if Ryan 628 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: Reynolds was a bad guy on a there he is. 629 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: Look at him, kind of looks like Liam Neeson a 630 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: little bit, a little bit good. Yeah, that guy has 631 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: an experience with fighting animals in this now he showed 632 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: his hands like that. He's like, these are registered the 633 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 1: registered in the day of your Hampshire. No, he definitely 634 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: has that like, oh, what what are the what's the 635 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: movie series with where Liam Neeson is avenging his daughter? 636 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 1: There's a taking thing going on here. Yeah, I will 637 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: find you very much talks like a mom and you 638 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: guy does he You missed the second part of that 639 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: quote he said, but so we're he has his hands 640 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: a registered baby. He is a badass. Good for you, Ian, 641 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: O'Reilly you look like maybe you were just come. You 642 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: were like on the set of twenty four and you don't. 643 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: I'm mildly offended that you. You asked me that I 644 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: would defend my small children if they were So what 645 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: do you do? You take it out quickly? Here, take 646 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: the kid, don't touch me, just like Oriley even sent 647 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: his family away, Like while he was dealing with the coyote, 648 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: he was like, get out of here and say yourselves. 649 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: You know, you know right, he knew what to do. 650 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: Time slowed down for Ian. I'm just saying what time 651 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: slow done for? You? Would It's sord to say unless 652 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: say we're in that situation, but I would try. My 653 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: best is strong enough, I would hope. So yeah, okay, 654 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 1: I feel confident as you offended him, then are you mad? 655 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: Oh man? I can see that anger. If you get 656 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: if your son gets attacked by Beard, remember this moment. 657 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: This will use this as fuel, got it. It's a 658 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: motivational talk. I would beat the ship out of that kite. 659 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: This dude, you know Riley, the bad guy from twenty four. 660 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: He punts this thing in the face. He kicks it 661 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: in his face multiple times. Then it comes back at him, 662 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: grabs him by the snout and I'm just looking at you, Joe, 663 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: for so I'm not telling grabs him by stop, push 664 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 1: his face in the snow, and then put his other 665 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,479 Speaker 1: hand on his windpipe and proceeds to choke it to death. 666 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: That right, And here's a detail. His other kid, Do 667 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: you say this? His other kid was attacked by a 668 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: rabid raccoon last year, last year in Get out of 669 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: New Hampshire. Deal with rabies. But he didn't kill the 670 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 1: raccoon with his bare hands. He did, but he could have. 671 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: He probably could have. That's the point. Probably would have 672 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: been easier than the guy. All right, Joe, reach out 673 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: to Ian. We're gonna have him on. He'll probably say 674 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: a lot of like very ominous things. Sometimes had some 675 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: experience in this field. Sometimes, you know, I'm a sanitation worker. Yeah, 676 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: I paint houses. People call me the cleaner sometimes. I 677 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: got a lot of concrete blocks, but rope in my garage. 678 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: I have to point out a slight irony in this 679 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: conversation thread, just just just I think it's worthy of 680 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: attention that we absolutely crucified two people for beating up 681 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: on one particular animal, and now we just lionized another 682 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: guy for in a very similar way, brutalizing animal. I 683 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: recognized there's context, but I just have to point out 684 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of irony to the way that that's gone. 685 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: This is one of those things, you know, like one 686 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: of those uh the less the listener can decide absolutely, 687 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: are we being hypocritical? Psible you decide. It's kind of 688 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: like one of those choose on adventure things. Um, we'll 689 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: record two different endings. You tell us which one, which 690 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: one you want us to put in. But you're you're 691 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: not wrong. Violence against animal, violence against animal, Yeah, the 692 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: context being the important part. Context matters. I am not 693 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: arguing against context. I just felt like that had to 694 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: be addressed, like we had to call out the fact 695 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: that I know it's worth bringing up, but I would 696 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: like to think that if Mr Riley had the option 697 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: to kill this coyote in an ethical quick way, he 698 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: probably would have done so. I would like to strangling 699 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: him in the snow for Takeing said he didn't want 700 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: to kill it, like he yeah, felt remorse. He said 701 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: it in a very Bond villainesque way. But he said, 702 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you made me like you did this to you. 703 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: He clearly wanted to live, but so did I. It's 704 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: incredible ship. Just like what when I watched that and 705 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 1: he's wearing all black. He's like a black trench coat. 706 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: He's got a five o'clock shadow, like the bag under 707 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: his eyes are just like he's been thinking about some 708 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: ship all night long. Yes, he's a little bit tired, 709 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: all right, A man, I had so many things I 710 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: want to talk about. Oh we said last week, Phil 711 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: and I don't want to leave people hanging. Uh that 712 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: we talked about lab grown meats. But I feel like 713 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: that's that could go. We could have like a three 714 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: hour opening segment at this point. We talked about this 715 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: like as as you were working on that piece. We 716 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: we had some some good conversation. Let's talk about it. 717 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. Uh, your call, it's your podcast. Man, 718 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: do you get to make that choice. We're gonna talk 719 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: about we're gonna do lab grown meats. We're gonna get 720 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: to um James Swan, PhD. In a minute. James Swan 721 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: is awesome thespian, first first SPI, and we found in 722 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: the show field. I haven't had any thespians on. He's one. 723 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: He had told told a story about Walter math Al, 724 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: which I thought was great, renowned, nice angling actor. So 725 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: that that fits into what we're up here right now. 726 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: He talks about he dressed up one time as a 727 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,280 Speaker 1: recycle man and went around. He sent me pictures. It's areas. 728 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: I'll try to post them. But James Swan has done everything. Um, 729 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: so you're gonna enjoy that conversation before you get to that. 730 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: We we we got to talk about lab grown meats. 731 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: I wrote a piece for the medior dot com. Why 732 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: you might ask, I was into the subject for the moment. 733 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: It is the meat eater and it also is that 734 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: so it seems pretty on the nose. Yeah with words 735 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: uh and the Association awards. So we're there. It's called 736 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: lab grown meat is here to stay and it might 737 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: change everything. Um, yes, I believe it is, so go 738 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: read that piece. But in that piece we talk about 739 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: a lot of things. The major thing is this thing 740 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: is coming. It's i would say, it's just about to 741 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 1: the point where you're gonna see it in stores. There's 742 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: a lot of things happening in a positive way for 743 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: what they're now calling cultured meat industry. There's a big 744 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: debate about what to call this, what you could call it, 745 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: how you could sell it, how you can name it um, 746 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: But there's momentum in in the technology and the production, 747 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: in the funding. There's a lot of new funny guys 748 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: like Bill Gates involved in this, Richard Brent Bronson involved 749 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: in this, Some of the major players in Silicon Valley 750 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: are involved in this. They feel like it's the future. 751 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, on that. On that note, my best friend 752 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: from high school who's way smarter than me and has 753 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: graduate degrees from Yale and this kind of thing. It's 754 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: his job, the kind of like nurture startup companies and 755 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 1: how they should invest their money and grow. And the 756 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: thing he is most excited about is this is yes, 757 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: this and so they just back in August, five companies 758 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: started the alliance from Meat, Poultry and Seafood innovation. They're 759 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: lobbying now for this stuff. They said they're a coalition 760 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: of food companies dedicated producing meat, poultry, seafood directly from 761 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: animal cells. And I guess before we go too much further, 762 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: we should say, what the hell? What the hell is 763 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: lab grown meat? Miles made a good point, Tell him 764 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: Miles about the misunderstanding. Good points all the time. Okay, Okay, 765 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: I got a narrow You're talking to a genius. Much 766 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: of my moments of brilliance? Do you want me to lebrate? So? 767 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: I think what you're referring to is I have had 768 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: a few conversations around this topic with folks who seem 769 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: to conflate the lab grown meat idea with what we're 770 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: seeing in a lot of different places right now, with 771 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: the plant based meats, the beyond burger, the impossible burger, uh, 772 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: and the saucage varieties right those those have just recently 773 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: kind of hit the mainstream market in a way that 774 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: they never had before plant based meat, which I think 775 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: is a misnomer. But whatever um is. But I still 776 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: want to know what jackfruit is. It's a semantic argument. 777 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get there. Everything's made a jack But 778 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: I do want to very clearly line out that there's 779 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,919 Speaker 1: a difference between these fake meat or plant based meat 780 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: products and the cultured meat. Those are two totally different technologies. 781 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: They're too total of different products. They're not the same thing. 782 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: The cultured meat is grown from lab or from from 783 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: animal cells in a lab, so it has never been 784 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: attached to an animal that has a nervous system and 785 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: all the other things that we associate with an organism. 786 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: It's just cells reproducing in a closed environment that are 787 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: animal muscle cells. Yeah, they put they put in a 788 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: little petri dish, they take they do a little biopsy 789 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: on whatever animal we're speaking up here. Obviously they intend 790 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: to do this for fish as well. That's what they say. 791 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: But this is not when you see the impossible Burger, 792 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: the beyond is not the same thing. This is totally 793 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: those two things confused. And I think that the key 794 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: difference in the eyes of the folks that are manufacturing 795 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: this stuff is that the beyond Burger and the impossible. 796 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: While they would eliminate animal agriculture if adopted on a 797 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: mass scale, there still is environmental impacts of the ingredients 798 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: that go the plant based ingredients that go into these products. 799 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: So the difference here is are other than removing the 800 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: cell from the animal and having the manufacturer facilities and 801 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: all those things, there's to me a really logical thread 802 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,760 Speaker 1: that says that this could could eliminate a lot of 803 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: the issues with animal agriculture and and plant past agriculture 804 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: as well monocultures and things like that. So this this 805 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: is it. There's a logical thread that you can trace 806 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: this to, like, hey, here's a nice solution for those things. 807 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: And that's what these companies. These companies are largely ideological. 808 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: They're not out there to saying that things are possible 809 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: beyond burgers and things like that. They're not out there 810 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: to make you healthy. Um, they want to make sure 811 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: that that happens. I would imagine the FDA will will 812 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: not approve them unless they do. But that's a big 813 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,359 Speaker 1: part of it. So that that's what it is, right 814 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: I said. The article that the first taste test was 815 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: back in in London. Was it aired on BBC. You 816 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: watch it, there's links to it, there's in the article, 817 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: you can watch it. It's weird. There's food critics like 818 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: chewing on this stuff and then talking about like how 819 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: it tastes. It feels very sci fi to me. I 820 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 1: feel it feels just weird. And most of the people 821 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: that have comments i'd read are just like, no, no, 822 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: we're not doing this, Like I'm not, I'm I'm not. 823 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: I don't even want to read about it. I don't. 824 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,399 Speaker 1: That's what we are doing it. That was my point, 825 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: Like we're doing it, We're doing it. It's happening. And 826 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: as as Phil said and as as I wrote in 827 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: the article, um, a lot of very smart people, a 828 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: lot of progressive people that kind of sit worship at 829 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: the altar of technology and progress, are this is the future. 830 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: That's what they say. I mean, it's a future, and 831 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: I think that you I don't necessarily share your same 832 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: level of skepticism about this. Now that's not to say 833 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: that I'm fully on board and I think this is 834 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: a pantasy it's going to solve our problems. I don't. 835 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: But I also am very much of the opinion that 836 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 1: our current animal agriculture practices are not real sustainable and 837 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: as we continue to grow in population, and as more 838 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: and more of that population wants to consume animal protein, 839 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to come up with some solutions for 840 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: how we're gonna pull that off. And and I don't 841 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: think that clearing forest land to raise more industrial cattle 842 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: is the answer. I'm not a fan of that. I 843 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: know that's what's going on. I don't personally consume very 844 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: much um industrial meat. That's just I'm lucky, right I 845 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: can hunt my friends who hunt in my fashion. I'm 846 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: in a very privileged position in that I get to 847 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 1: harvest the vast majority of the meat that I eat, 848 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: my family eats. But not everybody can do that, and 849 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: so it's I think it's easy for us as hunters 850 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: right now to sit and say, oh, well, you know, 851 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: big agriculture meats bad. But I don't support that. We 852 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: can't scale hunting to the point where it's going to 853 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: solve all the problems that we have this. I don't know. 854 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: There's there's a lot more information that needs to come 855 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: out about this practice. There are certainly going to be 856 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: by products and issues that come around as this technology 857 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: continues to develop. But I'm also not immediately throwing it 858 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: out is like it's got to be bad, This is 859 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 1: not gonna work. It's fake meat. I don't know. I'm 860 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: the jury is still out for me. I'm curious to 861 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: see the direction that it goes. And I think that 862 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: the point of what I wrote and that article was 863 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: to address that, like it could be a solution. Maybe 864 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 1: it's one of many possible solutions to what man, You 865 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: would be incredibly shortsighted not to see the issue here 866 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: we have will have was it ten billion people by estimation, 867 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: can't feed them the way we're feeding them now? Um, 868 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: and if you start to and that's why people also 869 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: asked me, why are you so concerned or you're doing 870 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,839 Speaker 1: a hunting podcast, why aren't you talking about Why are 871 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: you talking about veganism and plant based meats and why 872 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: are you getting into the lab lab based meats and 873 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: what is this like? Why this is why? Because it's 874 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,840 Speaker 1: convenient for me to say, I'm gonna kill that elkin. 875 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: That's all I'm gonna eat. That's it's convenient. It's nice 876 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: for me. But as you said, Miles, and as I 877 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: wrote in the piece, it's not scalable. No, it's not 878 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: going to fix everything. And we can't go out into 879 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,439 Speaker 1: the public and say this can fix your problem. It's 880 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: not a very personal level anecdote to all these issues 881 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: with animal agriculture. In the production of foods, so kind 882 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: of garden in your backyard. Um, all these things can 883 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: be solutions to to those problems, but they're very personal 884 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: solutions and not necessarily scalable in the way that we've 885 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: set this stuff up, just not then the way that 886 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: we need them to be scalable if we actually want 887 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: to come up with long term solutions for the challenges 888 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,400 Speaker 1: that we're going to face, and so even that we 889 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: are facing. Here's the point that the one point I'll make, 890 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: and I'll just try to make it brief, but if 891 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about this forever, the point that I make 892 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: in the piece and the point I'll make now is 893 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: that I think that we can hunt better, far and better. Um, 894 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: we can grow better, we can do all the things 895 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: that we're currently doing better right and still associate with 896 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: the natural world, not totally disconnected. If I eat the 897 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: perfect cellular piece of meat, my feeling is kind of 898 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,479 Speaker 1: giving up. It's giving up and saying like there's enough 899 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 1: of us within this ten billion people that will never 900 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: step back and look at their consumption. We have totally 901 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: over the last one ten tho years since we started 902 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: to cultivate the earth to grow things. Over those last 903 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: ten thousand years, we have evolved so much. There's enough 904 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: of us now that are unwilling to look back at 905 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,840 Speaker 1: how they consume and do it better that we have 906 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: to come up with this idea like this is it's 907 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: I said in the piece, it's orwelling in some ways, 908 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: like to grow this is is is giving up in 909 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: my mind. So my argument is like, look, this is again, 910 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,400 Speaker 1: like it's like a strange it's strangely robotic as a solution, 911 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 1: Like it's just strangely like we couldn't reason with people anymore, 912 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: so we had to just say, screw it, We'll grow 913 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: in the lab. Like, there's no way that all tend abillity, 914 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: these people are going to sit down and say we 915 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: are screwing this up and then all come together and 916 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: fix it. That's not gonna happen. There's no way. So 917 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,680 Speaker 1: we'll reverse engineer what we've already created and just do 918 00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,320 Speaker 1: it all on a lab. That's that's my feeling and 919 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: my cynical ass It feels like we've already passed that 920 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: tipping point, right, That's the point you made to me 921 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: while as I was writing it, Like, dude, we're already there. 922 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: We've we've already created completely synthetic food culture for just 923 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: about everything we consume. And so to me, this is 924 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: just one more step in that evolution and that tipping 925 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: point where we lost all the connection to giving up 926 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: on coming together with a consensus of how we do 927 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,280 Speaker 1: the sustainably that that ship is sailed. Man, we're way 928 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: past that happening. I agree with you. I'm very cynical 929 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,880 Speaker 1: to like, so that's an impressing idea. And and and and 930 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 1: to watch this go down this is common. I mean 931 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,319 Speaker 1: it's how like, the question is how big is it 932 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: going to be? Yeah, the question isn't and how effective 933 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,279 Speaker 1: is it going to be? Yeah? And so look, I 934 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,319 Speaker 1: would probably eat one of these things happily. No. And 935 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: I said this about plant based meat in the past 936 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 1: and veganism in the past, like I would prefer to 937 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: act in that way outside of my wild game meat 938 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: that I consume. I would prefer to act in that 939 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: way as a philosophical ideo logical like way of being. Yeah, 940 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to consume things that I don't know 941 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: where they come from. But as as you guys both said, 942 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: if I'm being cynical, I'm like, well, where my clothes 943 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,399 Speaker 1: come from the store, Like where did my car come 944 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: from the lot where I bought it from? And so 945 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: it would be hypocritical for me to say, like, oh, 946 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: I have a garden and I kill animals, so I'm cool, 947 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: I've done it. Don't worry about me, guys, worry about 948 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: the other ten billion folks at that that aren't his 949 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: h and producing my own wool. Point taken, I mean, 950 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: I think if you really want to look at what 951 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: has what we've had to do to support the population 952 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,680 Speaker 1: that we currently have, it is all lab based, right. 953 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: There is no feasible way that we even come close 954 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: to where we are now or even the population that 955 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: we had post World War One, unless we figured out 956 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: a way to synthetically create fertilizer. We had to find 957 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: a way to separate nitrogen out as a molecule, which 958 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: we didn't have before because guess what, we were running 959 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,480 Speaker 1: out of guano because we'd harvested it all over the world, 960 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,759 Speaker 1: and we didn't have enough fertilizer. We didn't have enough 961 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: nutrients in the soil to feed our population back in. Like, so, 962 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: my my point in all this is, I think you 963 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 1: have to look at it in context. Every time a 964 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 1: new technology pops up, it's very easy to look and 965 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: be like, this guy's falling. We're all screwed. That's gonna 966 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: kill us. And maybe it will. But there have been 967 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times, very professor Oreole, Yeah, but there 968 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: have been a lot of times in the industry where 969 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 1: this has happened and it's and then we're like, get 970 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: past it and it works out, and everybody was, oh, yeah, 971 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,880 Speaker 1: that was a great idea, So glad we did that. Yeah, yeah, 972 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 1: I could see that. I just think this is different. 973 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: I think this is a leap. It's quite the leap. Um. 974 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: Maybe if we said, hey man, we've industrialized all this 975 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 1: other stuff, let's keep how we interact with the natural 976 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,200 Speaker 1: world and how we consume it, at least from our 977 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,839 Speaker 1: from a dietary standpoint, let's keep that separate. But again 978 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: we've already we don't I know, we don't I know, 979 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 1: and we can't really if we want. If you want 980 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,839 Speaker 1: to run the numbers, that's what these folks have done. 981 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 1: And then like they've probably there. They have a prophecy 982 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 1: and it says that this is the way. Um, And 983 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm not totally against it. I'm just worried about how 984 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: quickly we might jump into it, and like how quickly 985 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,280 Speaker 1: will embrace that technology, and how quickly it will change 986 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,800 Speaker 1: us at our core, how quickly it will change our humanity, 987 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:35,799 Speaker 1: like how we think about the world, how we move 988 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,719 Speaker 1: around it. And so that's a worry that I have 989 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: you read the piece, you'll read kind of it's addressed 990 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: briefly there, but I I says in a title, it's here, 991 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,680 Speaker 1: and it's probably gonna change a lot um, and we'll 992 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 1: have to deal with that. I just would like to 993 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,560 Speaker 1: there be a firm warning that, like, while we're dealing 994 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: with this, let's be mindful of what it can do 995 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,279 Speaker 1: to us and what it probably will do to us 996 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: over time. Um, because it's important to know what are 997 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,279 Speaker 1: we We've already talked about tragic wisdom and all the 998 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,799 Speaker 1: things like life and death, and when we removed that 999 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,879 Speaker 1: from this process, Boy, that is it's worrisome to me, 1000 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: if if if you want me to probably not scape 1001 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: the thing that I'm actually most worried about in the 1002 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,799 Speaker 1: success of this, which is not something we've covered, But 1003 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,800 Speaker 1: I want to know what happens when we lose grazing 1004 00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: leases as something that we want for federal and state lands, 1005 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,879 Speaker 1: right if if if we we, if we supplant, there's 1006 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,879 Speaker 1: a long way down the road and a lot of hypotheticals, 1007 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: and I get it. But if we really do supplant 1008 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: the beef industry to the point where it declines, all 1009 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden, there's a whole lot of public land 1010 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,480 Speaker 1: that's no longer being monetized in the way that it 1011 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,240 Speaker 1: once was, and a far fewer defenders of that those lands. 1012 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,440 Speaker 1: And I like those places. I don't love seeing catalog 1013 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,880 Speaker 1: all the time. But that's just just to throw another 1014 00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,839 Speaker 1: thing for you to worry about with all this into 1015 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:06,319 Speaker 1: the my poor children. Uh. One thing I mentioned in 1016 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 1: here and there was a a group called rethink X. 1017 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 1: They're independent think tank at a London, which a lot 1018 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,840 Speaker 1: of this stuff seems to be coming from London, but 1019 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: San Francisco has picked up on lab based meats cultured 1020 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: meats as well. But they throize that by demand for 1021 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,280 Speaker 1: cow products will have follow that includes chicken, pig, fish, 1022 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: and other things. Either. I went and did a bunch 1023 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,359 Speaker 1: of research as to how close some of these things are. 1024 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: There is a company called just Meets at of San 1025 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,239 Speaker 1: Francisco that thinks that they might be able to get 1026 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: a chicken nugget. Why the first lab base thing has 1027 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 1: to be a fucking chicken nugget? I don't know. Why 1028 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,759 Speaker 1: couldn't it be like something not processed. I guess I 1029 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: know you do. That's why I can't uh um. But 1030 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: they also said this is maybe where it gets um 1031 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,280 Speaker 1: the scariest for me, or just the most sci fi 1032 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,880 Speaker 1: um that they said that there will be molecular chefs 1033 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 1: that are creating food, much like current folks create an app, 1034 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,960 Speaker 1: software based chefs, so they'll be able to look at 1035 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,799 Speaker 1: certain molecules, put them all together, and create something in 1036 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: a lab that can taste however we desire to taste. 1037 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,359 Speaker 1: That makes me nervous. That's freaky. That's a good way 1038 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 1: to put it. It's freaky. That's why it's interesting. And 1039 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,800 Speaker 1: so we'll continue to cover stuff like this on the show. 1040 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:41,120 Speaker 1: In fact, next week, next week, we're gonna yeah, next one, 1041 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: I would tell you what we're gonna do that's not 1042 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: gonna be surprised. Next week, we're gonna do a Pepsi 1043 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,439 Speaker 1: challenge on plant based meats and wild game. We're gonna 1044 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: put a blindfold on some people and we're gonna ask 1045 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: them to taste each one and see if they can 1046 00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 1: pick out the wild game. I don't think I'm invited, 1047 00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,120 Speaker 1: but I'm just gonna crash that one. Please come, I'm 1048 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,360 Speaker 1: just gonna I'm just gonna hang out and eat. The 1049 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,440 Speaker 1: rumor is Steven Ronnell is gonna be here for that. 1050 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,120 Speaker 1: We got a bunch of people from the office I 1051 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,160 Speaker 1: want to take part. Um lots to cover there. James 1052 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,759 Speaker 1: Swan is uh, pretty interesting man. He is written books, 1053 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: he has written treatments for TV. He's been on TV, 1054 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 1: He's been in movies. He's written documentaries, he's co produced documentaries. Um. 1055 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: He co wrote a book with John Norris called War 1056 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,120 Speaker 1: in the Woods about uh fighting. You'all probably know him 1057 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: if you listen to Mediator podcast where if you listen 1058 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: to Joe Rogan podcast, he was in on the first 1059 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: publishing of that. It was did a lot of ride 1060 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,760 Speaker 1: alongs with John during that time, and so as I 1061 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,960 Speaker 1: dug into this guy, I realized he's done a lot 1062 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:40,880 Speaker 1: of stuff, and um, I think at one point during 1063 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,400 Speaker 1: the podcast, I just he talked for like twenty minutes 1064 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,640 Speaker 1: straight and then my my only response was can we 1065 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,120 Speaker 1: be friends? That was it? Uh, because he's got a 1066 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: lot of stories. So imagine sitting around having a whiskey 1067 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 1: with James Swan would be quite interesting. So hopefully over 1068 00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 1: the next hour or so you feel that way. So 1069 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 1: now you're gonna listen to James A. Swan, pH d. 1070 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,880 Speaker 1: On All Things Hunting, all Things philosophy. He's also one 1071 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:21,680 Speaker 1: time Recycleman superhero. Enjoy Dr Swan. How are you just fine? 1072 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. I'm I couldn't be any better. As 1073 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,360 Speaker 1: I was just telling you before we hit record. I'm 1074 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,120 Speaker 1: a newly minted father. Um, so I'm feeling pretty good 1075 00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 1: about life right now. That sounds great. I can I 1076 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,160 Speaker 1: cannot complain, but I'm excited to talk to you. I 1077 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,960 Speaker 1: been doing a lot of research about your life and 1078 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: times and your work, and um, you have your your 1079 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,480 Speaker 1: work is varied. I'll just say that there's a lot 1080 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: you can say about it. But you you were just 1081 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 1: telling me you acted up in twenty one UM films 1082 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: and different things. You've You've written books, you have UM 1083 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,040 Speaker 1: directed and written documentaries. You have on and on you go. 1084 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,480 Speaker 1: So there's a million things to talk about. And that's 1085 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: my favorite type of guest on the show. So thanks 1086 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,120 Speaker 1: thanks for doing all that. Appreciate it well, thank you, 1087 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,200 Speaker 1: thank you. Um, we should start out with I was 1088 00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,280 Speaker 1: reading a couple of things and I came across that 1089 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,800 Speaker 1: you grew up in Michigan. Our our founder, Steven Ronnella, 1090 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,360 Speaker 1: grew up in Michigan, and a bunch of our crew here. 1091 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: I grew up in that part of the world. So 1092 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,440 Speaker 1: we might as well start where you started, and a 1093 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,600 Speaker 1: little bit about how you first came to to to 1094 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,760 Speaker 1: love the outdoors and being outside and wanting to do 1095 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 1: it for a living. Well. I was born and raised 1096 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,800 Speaker 1: on an island at the mouth of the Detroit River 1097 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,440 Speaker 1: as it empties into Lake Gary. Gross Seal is the 1098 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,720 Speaker 1: name of it. And um, you know, fifty feet out 1099 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,000 Speaker 1: the front door of the house, you could be in 1100 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,880 Speaker 1: in a canal, and uh you could be fishing, and 1101 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, you go another hundred yards and you could 1102 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,280 Speaker 1: have a duck line. So from a you know, very 1103 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,720 Speaker 1: early age, I learned about hunting and fishing. But I 1104 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: will remember that the first fish I ever caught from 1105 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 1: that canal, it was a big pumpkin seed sunfish, and 1106 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,480 Speaker 1: we brought it back with great ceremony to have for dinner. 1107 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: And I took one bite out of this thing and 1108 01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 1: it just tasted horrible, tasted like oil, at which point 1109 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,560 Speaker 1: my father's kind of said, oh, well, um, the Naval 1110 01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:31,520 Speaker 1: Air station and you know, some other things dump a 1111 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,080 Speaker 1: lot of stuff into the water around here. So that 1112 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,680 Speaker 1: was my initiation into one, you know, loving nature and 1113 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:46,040 Speaker 1: at the same time being acutely aware of pollution. And 1114 01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up there and and hunted and 1115 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:55,760 Speaker 1: fished a lot, but we really the the Detroit side, 1116 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:01,800 Speaker 1: the American side of the river was a public health hazard, 1117 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,680 Speaker 1: so you know, I mean, if we wanted to go fishing, 1118 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 1: we always bought Canadian licenses because the you know, the 1119 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: only thing that dumped really a lot of stuff into 1120 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,400 Speaker 1: the river over there was the was a whiskey factory. 1121 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: So um. But you know, and then I also had bronchitis. 1122 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,360 Speaker 1: And so when I went to school at the University 1123 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,840 Speaker 1: of Michigan, um, you know, other than playing some football, 1124 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,440 Speaker 1: what I was really interested in is what in the 1125 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,680 Speaker 1: world can be done to deal with the the air 1126 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: and water pollution back in the Detroit area. And I 1127 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:49,400 Speaker 1: started out as a wildlife management major, and then sophomore 1128 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:56,000 Speaker 1: year I was assigned to read aldo Leopold Sand County 1129 01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Almanac that yeah, Leopold basically says, you know that the 1130 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, environmental problems really are not political. Ultimately, they're 1131 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:13,120 Speaker 1: in the mind of man. And suddenly, just you know, 1132 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,360 Speaker 1: that just struck me and I changed my major from 1133 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:22,560 Speaker 1: wildlife management initially too conservation education. Then I got a 1134 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,000 Speaker 1: master's degree and resource planning, where I went back to 1135 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:31,280 Speaker 1: the river and uh interviewed about fifty different people there 1136 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,600 Speaker 1: trying to find out why, you know, what did they 1137 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,840 Speaker 1: think about pollution And basically what I learned was people 1138 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,920 Speaker 1: adapt and so that ultimately moved me to create a 1139 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:48,200 Speaker 1: PhD degree in environmental psychology. It was the first one 1140 01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,560 Speaker 1: that they had ever had at the University of Michigan. 1141 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,800 Speaker 1: And you know, and I went back and studied the 1142 01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: people living back there trying to find out how it 1143 01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:02,440 Speaker 1: was that they developed they're, um, you know, their feelings 1144 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:07,440 Speaker 1: about about the pollution and conservation. And what came back 1145 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 1: was basically that the way that people really started to care, 1146 01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they could adapt to living around air and 1147 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,880 Speaker 1: water problems even though that it was causing a health hazard. 1148 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,200 Speaker 1: But that um, the kids, especially in the group that 1149 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,040 Speaker 1: I did research with at a high school. The ones 1150 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:32,280 Speaker 1: that we cared most about conservation and pollution had gotten 1151 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,439 Speaker 1: out of the city and they'd spend time where all 1152 01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,880 Speaker 1: the air and water were clean, and so, you know, 1153 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,600 Speaker 1: I mean I got involved at that point in teaching 1154 01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,960 Speaker 1: a little bit about that class and environmental psychology, but 1155 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:52,440 Speaker 1: I also taught the first class on environmental communications because 1156 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,400 Speaker 1: I felt like that was important in this age. And 1157 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,560 Speaker 1: then I was there for a couple of years and 1158 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,960 Speaker 1: worked down the first teaching you know, the that we 1159 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,640 Speaker 1: had in nineteen seventy and that was, uh, you know, 1160 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,520 Speaker 1: it's the biggest in the country. We had, we had 1161 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:13,840 Speaker 1: fifty thousand people there. And I then got offered a 1162 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,720 Speaker 1: job to move out to the West Coast, and I 1163 01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,840 Speaker 1: decided to take it. And it was suddenly like, you know, 1164 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,160 Speaker 1: I was put in a place in Washington where there 1165 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,200 Speaker 1: wasn't any air and water pollution, and so, you know, 1166 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:31,760 Speaker 1: I was still interested in studying what got people excited 1167 01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:36,280 Speaker 1: about conservation. And what happened to me then was I 1168 01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,160 Speaker 1: was in Bellingham at Western Washington, and I met some 1169 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,040 Speaker 1: of the lummy Indians and they took me fishing, and 1170 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,560 Speaker 1: I started to get a feeling for them and how 1171 01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,560 Speaker 1: they connected to nature and it was very different, um 1172 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:56,200 Speaker 1: and very deep and powerful and ultimately I I then 1173 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,600 Speaker 1: took a job down at the University of Oregon, um, 1174 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, and where I was actually teaching psychology, and UM, 1175 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,000 Speaker 1: what I really started to get into more and more 1176 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: was just what is this thing that Leopold talked about? 1177 01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: How do you get into the mine the land? And um, 1178 01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,120 Speaker 1: you know. I ended up after three years down and there, 1179 01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,479 Speaker 1: I ended up then running a holistic health center and 1180 01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:30,160 Speaker 1: being a counselor for athletes primarily. And in the process 1181 01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,880 Speaker 1: of running this center, I met Joseph Campbell, the mythologist. 1182 01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:40,040 Speaker 1: And Joe had been, you know, an athlete in college 1183 01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:45,320 Speaker 1: also and loved to hunt and fish. Um. The biggest 1184 01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,360 Speaker 1: fish heat he ever caught was a huge musculune. He 1185 01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,720 Speaker 1: had pictures of a show, and UM. One evening at 1186 01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:58,400 Speaker 1: a French restaurant, we were sitting around eating and talking 1187 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,000 Speaker 1: and Joe sort of takes a sip of his French 1188 01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,880 Speaker 1: wine and says, you know, I'm going to make a prediction. 1189 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:12,640 Speaker 1: I think you're going to evolve into working in mainstream media. 1190 01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:15,320 Speaker 1: And you know, at the time of a lot, you know, 1191 01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:19,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been a psychologist, a college professor. He said, no, 1192 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:24,000 Speaker 1: you just apply that to the media. Just wait and see. Well, 1193 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,440 Speaker 1: about eight months later, my family and I moved to 1194 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,400 Speaker 1: the San Francisco area, and that's where I really started 1195 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,880 Speaker 1: to get into doing things that would apply for some 1196 01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,320 Speaker 1: of the stuff that I've done, because I've been studying 1197 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:44,040 Speaker 1: how traditional cultures came to develop their feelings about conservation, 1198 01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:49,040 Speaker 1: both in you know, in Alaska and in the lummies 1199 01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,280 Speaker 1: up in Washington. And then I spent some time in 1200 01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: Japan as well, and you know, and and so I, 1201 01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,640 Speaker 1: my wife and I started producing simpose hims about traditional 1202 01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:05,440 Speaker 1: culture and the idea of special places of power and whatever. 1203 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,480 Speaker 1: And that led me ultimately to write a book about 1204 01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:15,120 Speaker 1: sacred places, and that got me on television. I ended 1205 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:20,760 Speaker 1: up work working with sightings and ancient mysteries and um 1206 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,160 Speaker 1: and that was sort of my baptism. And then one 1207 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,680 Speaker 1: day my and I started writing. And one of one day, 1208 01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,600 Speaker 1: my wife comes up to me and says, look, there's 1209 01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,840 Speaker 1: this cattle call coming up for a movie from Francis Ford. 1210 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,560 Speaker 1: Couple of you've been wanting to do something like that. 1211 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,920 Speaker 1: Go go, So, you know, I went to this thing 1212 01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,120 Speaker 1: and Jesus. There were three or four hundred people there 1213 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,040 Speaker 1: the audience. Each one had to come up on stage 1214 01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,040 Speaker 1: and um, get your picture taken and that sort of stuff. Well, 1215 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:56,080 Speaker 1: Francis connected with me, that liked me. So I ended 1216 01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,400 Speaker 1: up getting a part in Tucker the Man in His Dream, 1217 01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:05,720 Speaker 1: which distingly enough was set in back in Detroit, and um, 1218 01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,000 Speaker 1: in the process of that I got I was put 1219 01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,600 Speaker 1: in a scene with Martin Landau, who turned out to 1220 01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,320 Speaker 1: be one of the nicest people I have ever met. 1221 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:21,200 Speaker 1: And one day, you know, I worked for almost for 1222 01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:25,600 Speaker 1: over a week with Martin and got to know him. 1223 01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:27,840 Speaker 1: And one day we were sitting there and you know, 1224 01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,960 Speaker 1: waiting for the next shoot to take place, and he 1225 01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,200 Speaker 1: starts smoking and I noticed deep and smoking a lot. 1226 01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 1: He was really a chain smoker. And I finally said, look, Martin, 1227 01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 1: you don't want to do that. You're going to kill 1228 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,960 Speaker 1: yourself and ruin your voice for acting. For God's sakes, 1229 01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:48,960 Speaker 1: how would you like me to teach you how to 1230 01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 1: how to stop smoking? What I said, well, look, I 1231 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,320 Speaker 1: used to teach. I used to work with athletes and 1232 01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:02,280 Speaker 1: I taught them how to do relaxation visualization. I'll teach 1233 01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:06,120 Speaker 1: you how to do that. Well I did. He got 1234 01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:11,080 Speaker 1: it and he stopped smoking. And at that point Martin says, 1235 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:17,040 Speaker 1: looks Wan, I'm running a an acting school. How would 1236 01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,880 Speaker 1: you like a short course on how to act? So 1237 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:25,800 Speaker 1: here I am, you know, between shots, where Martin says, now, look, 1238 01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,240 Speaker 1: think of this. This is how you remember, this is 1239 01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:32,160 Speaker 1: how you recall all that kind of stuff, and you know, 1240 01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:34,640 Speaker 1: and at the end of it, Martin went off and 1241 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,400 Speaker 1: he got not He got an Oscar for his part 1242 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: in Tucker, and I started to get work as an actor, 1243 01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: and I broke into Screen Actors Guild. In Angels in 1244 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:54,519 Speaker 1: the outfield, we're having been a football player, I got, well, yeah, 1245 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm the third base coach of the Ronald Blue Jays 1246 01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:04,719 Speaker 1: and the first the first, the first based judge. Um 1247 01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:10,240 Speaker 1: was a former linebacker for the l A. Rams, and 1248 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:13,559 Speaker 1: so you know, whenever they get into a fight out 1249 01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,800 Speaker 1: there on the mound, we'd have to go out and 1250 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,680 Speaker 1: tackle these guys and break up the fights. And so 1251 01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:21,960 Speaker 1: that's how I got into Screen Actors Guild. And you know, 1252 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,080 Speaker 1: since then that I just kind of went along with 1253 01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,280 Speaker 1: a follow and Joe has been right, you know, I mean, 1254 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:33,160 Speaker 1: ultimately I was ten years with ESPN Outdoors working on 1255 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:37,639 Speaker 1: some of their shows outdoors and then, uh, during which 1256 01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,920 Speaker 1: time I was also doing acting work, and um, during 1257 01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,679 Speaker 1: the recession, everything shut up back in in the Bay 1258 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:49,040 Speaker 1: Area and so we ended up selling our house and 1259 01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,919 Speaker 1: moving to New Mexico, which is supposed to be Hollywood 1260 01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:55,000 Speaker 1: in the desert. And so that's where I am today. 1261 01:10:55,240 --> 01:11:01,280 Speaker 1: And you know that I'm working on writing and producing 1262 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,000 Speaker 1: and I you know, I produced before I left. I 1263 01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: produced Wild Justice on National Geographic, which is all about 1264 01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,760 Speaker 1: game wardens in California, and um, you know, and now 1265 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,519 Speaker 1: I'm working on actually a feature film about the life 1266 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:23,760 Speaker 1: of Aldo Leopold. Yeah, the Leopold Foundation asked me to 1267 01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:31,080 Speaker 1: do this, and actually one of Aldo's children, Nina, got 1268 01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:35,040 Speaker 1: me up there for you know, to start this thing off. 1269 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:39,720 Speaker 1: And so you know, I'm I'm working on developing that 1270 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,639 Speaker 1: right now. Wow. That that's uh interesting to me for 1271 01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:46,599 Speaker 1: for many reasons. We've we've talked a lot about Auto 1272 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:48,600 Speaker 1: on this show and with all of our brands. He 1273 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:53,839 Speaker 1: seems to be seminal in in all of our lives. 1274 01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,240 Speaker 1: It's kind of strange crossroads through that guy. How would 1275 01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:58,800 Speaker 1: you tell a story? How do you intend to tell 1276 01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:04,080 Speaker 1: his story in that way. Well, god, okay, just describe 1277 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:07,559 Speaker 1: the whole work for me. Well, you know, the basic 1278 01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:09,960 Speaker 1: you know. And I've got an option on this, by 1279 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,960 Speaker 1: the way, so on his life story and the support 1280 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:15,120 Speaker 1: of the foundation, so I guess I can tell you 1281 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:21,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about it. We'll support your good well, 1282 01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:23,639 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and frankly, one of the reasons 1283 01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,320 Speaker 1: that I really liked and wanted to do this is 1284 01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:31,200 Speaker 1: because what we don't have enough of these days are 1285 01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:38,160 Speaker 1: conservation heroes that appear that appear in you know, I mean, 1286 01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,679 Speaker 1: I applaud Stephen taking meat eating for God's sakes into 1287 01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,799 Speaker 1: mainstream media. That's great, um, And you know, we need 1288 01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:51,240 Speaker 1: more things like that because we live in the information age, 1289 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:55,719 Speaker 1: you know, and so where the average person sits around 1290 01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:59,040 Speaker 1: for six or seven hours a day looking at electronic screens. 1291 01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,000 Speaker 1: And the thing that I just learned and I'm learned 1292 01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:07,599 Speaker 1: from I just produced of Hollywood Celebrity Archery shoot, which 1293 01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:10,240 Speaker 1: was a benefit for National Archery in the in the 1294 01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:15,120 Speaker 1: school's program. And in the process I got into really 1295 01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:19,760 Speaker 1: studying archery and discovered that back in there were four 1296 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,400 Speaker 1: million archers in the United States. You know, how many 1297 01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:27,720 Speaker 1: there are today twenty four million archers that I don't 1298 01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,479 Speaker 1: know about bow hunters, but it leaves people who shoot 1299 01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:35,560 Speaker 1: archer archery and there and there are two reasons primarily 1300 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,680 Speaker 1: why this is happening. One of the recruitment programs like 1301 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:41,760 Speaker 1: archery in the schools. There's two million kids that are 1302 01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:46,640 Speaker 1: enrolled on that right now. And the other though, is 1303 01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:50,559 Speaker 1: that when, first of all, when Gina Davis almost made 1304 01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:54,879 Speaker 1: the Olympic team, there was a huge pump in women archers, 1305 01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:06,240 Speaker 1: and then along came Jennifer Lawrence every and and the 1306 01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,639 Speaker 1: Archery Trade Association says, my god, you know, the number 1307 01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:16,639 Speaker 1: of people coming and joining archery picking it up, especially women, 1308 01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:22,599 Speaker 1: just exploded, and you know, and so that's and look, 1309 01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, the other thing that I can say is 1310 01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,400 Speaker 1: an example of all this is that and we have 1311 01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,400 Speaker 1: programs out there to recruit people to hunt and fish 1312 01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,800 Speaker 1: and shoot. You know, there are three program and all that, 1313 01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:39,280 Speaker 1: but um, a river runs through it put a hundred 1314 01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,720 Speaker 1: thousand more fly fishermen and the streams within a year, 1315 01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:49,160 Speaker 1: you know. And so it's like if we have feature 1316 01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,759 Speaker 1: films that have a good soul to them, that show 1317 01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 1: outdoor sportsmen as heroes rather than villains and bad people. 1318 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,320 Speaker 1: People will respond. So you know that's what That's what 1319 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,519 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do. Well, people forget that that um 1320 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:09,280 Speaker 1: so many ways to go with this my next question, 1321 01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,439 Speaker 1: but I think people do forget. You know, I have 1322 01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:14,120 Speaker 1: a young toddler and we watched Beauty and the Beast 1323 01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:18,799 Speaker 1: and there's a hundred the Disney archetype hunter manly man character, 1324 01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:21,680 Speaker 1: and there is the bad guy. Uh So there's a 1325 01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:24,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things like that. Not to mention Bamby, 1326 01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:29,200 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of things not to mention that 1327 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of their archetype for the manly man. He's 1328 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,960 Speaker 1: a he's an egotist and hunter. I mean, we've had 1329 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,639 Speaker 1: a couple of things recently that have come out where 1330 01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,360 Speaker 1: he has really been bad guys. You know. One is 1331 01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:46,680 Speaker 1: a was a movie called Walking Out, which which was 1332 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:52,240 Speaker 1: you know, father and son go hunting up in Montana 1333 01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:55,760 Speaker 1: and they go out and the kid was reluctant to 1334 01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:58,160 Speaker 1: go out, but he went with his father and then 1335 01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,040 Speaker 1: they were going to shoot a most climbed up and 1336 01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,880 Speaker 1: found the moose was dead, had been poached. So there's 1337 01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:08,679 Speaker 1: poachers and then a Grizzly bears there on the moose 1338 01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,760 Speaker 1: and charges them, and the kid climbs up in a 1339 01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,920 Speaker 1: tree and the father hands him his gun. Gun goes off, 1340 01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:20,639 Speaker 1: and the kid shoots his father and the walking walking out. 1341 01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:22,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, you know, trying to get 1342 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:26,360 Speaker 1: his father out before he died. Um, you know. And 1343 01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,719 Speaker 1: then there was another one about hunting in um father. 1344 01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,759 Speaker 1: It was a TV show I think or a TV 1345 01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:38,240 Speaker 1: film where father and son reluctantly go. Father is like, 1346 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,559 Speaker 1: somebody who's got a hunting show? Yeah, the legacy of 1347 01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,880 Speaker 1: a white tailed deer hunter? You got it. That's right. 1348 01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,200 Speaker 1: That was pretty funny, But you're right in the end, 1349 01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:53,400 Speaker 1: it was it was not flattering. Shoots shoots the cameraman accidentally, 1350 01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:57,439 Speaker 1: So you've got to feature, you know, productions where the 1351 01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:01,320 Speaker 1: kid is shooting somebody. Yeah, you know, and it's like, 1352 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,120 Speaker 1: I mean, there are there are so much more that 1353 01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,120 Speaker 1: could have been done with that, you know, with both 1354 01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:08,559 Speaker 1: of those. But but um, what do you think that? 1355 01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: What do you think that is? You think that's you know, 1356 01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:13,439 Speaker 1: you've kind of been you know, you're hung out with water, 1357 01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,160 Speaker 1: math out for God's sake, you're kind of in the 1358 01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,000 Speaker 1: sag the Hollywood community. What what is that is it 1359 01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,880 Speaker 1: the the political leanings, is just the culture of the 1360 01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:25,080 Speaker 1: place where these movies are coming from. Why does it 1361 01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,519 Speaker 1: always end up that way or more seemingly end up 1362 01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:31,440 Speaker 1: the way more than more than not, they're they're more 1363 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,200 Speaker 1: people who hunt and do sports shooting there than you 1364 01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:41,120 Speaker 1: might think. Um, but the you know what, but there 1365 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:46,960 Speaker 1: is a very strong element of animal rights in Hollywood 1366 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,200 Speaker 1: when you look at I know a lot of celebrities. 1367 01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't know a lot of celebrities, but I know 1368 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:54,960 Speaker 1: a lot of actors who hunt and don't talk about it. 1369 01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:56,880 Speaker 1: Can't talk about it, their agents won't let them talk 1370 01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,519 Speaker 1: about it. They can't even post on social media wearing 1371 01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:03,960 Speaker 1: camoufl um. Yeah, and that's that's unfortunate because it doesn't 1372 01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,599 Speaker 1: because that that shows that those those through lines of 1373 01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:09,880 Speaker 1: of hunting is not the right thing to do. It's 1374 01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,719 Speaker 1: not good for public relations. Therefore it's taboo. Um has 1375 01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,320 Speaker 1: sunken in in that culture. It just has. Yeah, it is. 1376 01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:19,599 Speaker 1: And you know one of the things that is I've 1377 01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,280 Speaker 1: gotten into I you know, I write for a couple 1378 01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:25,240 Speaker 1: of different publications and stuff, and so I've continued to 1379 01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:29,200 Speaker 1: try to look at the psychology some of the psychological 1380 01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:33,799 Speaker 1: aspects of hunting. And in the process I ran across 1381 01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:39,160 Speaker 1: a guy, Harold her Sad, who is at UM. How 1382 01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:44,679 Speaker 1: her Sad at West Carolina University is a psychologist who's 1383 01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:49,880 Speaker 1: been studying vegetarianism. Do you know what percentage of the 1384 01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:53,320 Speaker 1: of the of Americans are vegetary? According to how two 1385 01:18:54,920 --> 01:19:00,240 Speaker 1: and you know, and UM and the and even the 1386 01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:04,800 Speaker 1: the vegetarian media admits street three point five and esper 1387 01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:10,000 Speaker 1: vegans who get all kinds of publicity half of a percent, 1388 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:15,439 Speaker 1: that's it. And yet you know what those folks have done, 1389 01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:20,599 Speaker 1: is they really knew how to get two mainstream media 1390 01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,960 Speaker 1: and use it. Oh well, I was watching. My wife 1391 01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,760 Speaker 1: forced me to watch the screen. I was both the 1392 01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Screen Actors Guild Awards you got on this thing and 1393 01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,400 Speaker 1: the Golden Globes, and I watched them for the first 1394 01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,800 Speaker 1: time ever I've never even had been interested in. And 1395 01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:39,280 Speaker 1: they announced during the Golden Globes that the UM Screen 1396 01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,400 Speaker 1: Actor Guild in Hollywood foreign press had both gone vegan, 1397 01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,639 Speaker 1: meaning these are both dinner These are both dinner parties 1398 01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,719 Speaker 1: and atheist televised dinner parties with all the most famous 1399 01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:53,559 Speaker 1: stars in Hollywood. They're serving vegan meals and celebrating it, um. 1400 01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,280 Speaker 1: And so that's how deep it goes the things that 1401 01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:01,200 Speaker 1: her song came up with. Also that even more incredible 1402 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:08,880 Speaker 1: is that he says of vegetarians returned to eating some meat, 1403 01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:14,360 Speaker 1: and se of vegans do also and the reason for 1404 01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:18,880 Speaker 1: their health, you know. And so it's like that's a 1405 01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:23,280 Speaker 1: story that just isn't getting told. And I've read a 1406 01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:26,200 Speaker 1: lot about, you know, the reasons that people get into 1407 01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:30,160 Speaker 1: these they're they're making a dietary choice for ideological reasons, um. 1408 01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,400 Speaker 1: And I've read several studies that that say, up the sixties, 1409 01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:36,960 Speaker 1: people that go vegan or vegetarian are doing it for 1410 01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:41,800 Speaker 1: the ideology to save the planet, um, rather than for 1411 01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:44,280 Speaker 1: dietary reasons. So there's no wonder that there's that that 1412 01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:46,280 Speaker 1: number are more that are are turning back to me 1413 01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:49,280 Speaker 1: because of you know, B twelve deficiencies or lack of 1414 01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:51,360 Speaker 1: hem iron or different things that they need in their diet. 1415 01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's yeah, it's obvious once you 1416 01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,599 Speaker 1: look at that, you know, and you know, and so 1417 01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,840 Speaker 1: it's I think we just need to be able to 1418 01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:08,920 Speaker 1: find ways to creatively talk about those things and put 1419 01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:12,720 Speaker 1: them out there. So that people will understand what in 1420 01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,479 Speaker 1: the world is going on. And um, you know, it's 1421 01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:21,960 Speaker 1: like in reviewing some psychologists who really have put a 1422 01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,080 Speaker 1: lot of work into this, and you know, I mean 1423 01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,599 Speaker 1: I haven't been a been an academic full time for 1424 01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:33,479 Speaker 1: god three five years or so, but um that you know, 1425 01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:39,200 Speaker 1: there's stuff that has been done that points out hunting 1426 01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:44,200 Speaker 1: is there's nothing wrong with it, and that all these 1427 01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:49,120 Speaker 1: concerns about labeling hunters as being evil, bad, you know, 1428 01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:54,800 Speaker 1: all those other things are really they're not substantiated. And 1429 01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:57,640 Speaker 1: there's a couple of quotes that I found that I 1430 01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,160 Speaker 1: thought i'd share with you, one of which is, are 1431 01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:03,720 Speaker 1: you familiar with the with the book the paleoti Thic Prescription? 1432 01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:08,679 Speaker 1: I am. I am in the Paleo Diet. Well. Melvin Conner, 1433 01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:11,439 Speaker 1: who's one of the three people who wrote that, is 1434 01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:15,400 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist as well as he has a PhD also 1435 01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:21,560 Speaker 1: in anthropology, and he got his his PhD in anthropology 1436 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:26,640 Speaker 1: by living in Africa with a bushman can know, and 1437 01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,240 Speaker 1: so he had to hunt and he comes back and 1438 01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:34,960 Speaker 1: they've got a quote there are hunting instinct has gone 1439 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,240 Speaker 1: awry in civilized society, where the thrill of the chase 1440 01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:43,440 Speaker 1: and the kill are no longer part of that experience, 1441 01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:48,599 Speaker 1: and there are no clear avenues of expression, except perhaps 1442 01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:53,599 Speaker 1: to our peril in the streets and subways of today's 1443 01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:59,320 Speaker 1: urban jungles. You know, and it's like, okay, but if 1444 01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:02,799 Speaker 1: you look around own you know. I did a search 1445 01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:06,040 Speaker 1: a few years ago when I was writing my book 1446 01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:09,759 Speaker 1: in Defense of Hunting, and I tried to interview either 1447 01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:14,960 Speaker 1: either psychologists or look at people what people had said, 1448 01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:18,000 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and ran into stuff. I mean, 1449 01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:23,320 Speaker 1: Eric from the Anatomy of Human Destructiveness says, in the 1450 01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:26,920 Speaker 1: act of hunting, a man becomes, however briefly, part of 1451 01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,519 Speaker 1: nature again. He returns to the natural state, becomes one 1452 01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:34,000 Speaker 1: with the animal, is freed from the burden of his 1453 01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:39,200 Speaker 1: existential split, to be part of nature and into transcended 1454 01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:43,600 Speaker 1: by virtue of his consciousness. In stalking the animal, he 1455 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:47,040 Speaker 1: and the animal become equals, even though the man eventually 1456 01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:52,600 Speaker 1: shows his superiority by the use of weapons, and you know, 1457 01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:57,519 Speaker 1: and other stuff like on weapons. Again, Melvin Connor rights, 1458 01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:02,240 Speaker 1: there is little or no evidence, physiological or behavioral, to 1459 01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:06,920 Speaker 1: suggest that predatory aggression hunting as much in common with 1460 01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:13,639 Speaker 1: intraspecies aggression. Okay, so you know, it's like what we're 1461 01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:19,479 Speaker 1: dealing with is that in the American Psychological Association when 1462 01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:22,599 Speaker 1: I used to belong to it, they told me that 1463 01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:27,439 Speaker 1: they do not have any research articles reporting ethical hunters 1464 01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:32,520 Speaker 1: as wrong or evil. Yeah, so you know, it's basically 1465 01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:41,759 Speaker 1: what what we've created is a kind of discriminatory consciousness 1466 01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:46,240 Speaker 1: that is um that that really doesn't give a full 1467 01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:50,760 Speaker 1: picture of mankind. And James Hillman, who was one of 1468 01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:55,479 Speaker 1: Young's students, I knew him and actually I taught some 1469 01:24:55,640 --> 01:25:00,400 Speaker 1: classes at at his pacifica um College, which which is 1470 01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:06,040 Speaker 1: a PhD program for for grad students in psychology, and 1471 01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:09,880 Speaker 1: he said that he had found a number of his 1472 01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:15,360 Speaker 1: clients having dreams about angry animals chasing them, and some 1473 01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,759 Speaker 1: said that they thought it was because we should stop 1474 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:23,320 Speaker 1: killing animals for food and support. However, what Hillman said 1475 01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:25,720 Speaker 1: is no, When we dug into it even further, we 1476 01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,799 Speaker 1: found out the reason was that the dreams of angry 1477 01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:34,920 Speaker 1: animals chasing people was that the animals symbolized instincts of 1478 01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:40,280 Speaker 1: the soul and they were being denied. And so that's what, 1479 01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, what that was all about. Yeah, there's no 1480 01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:45,880 Speaker 1: there's no argument out there. Well, there's there's no argue 1481 01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:49,360 Speaker 1: within within any intellectual community that I've ever read that's 1482 01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:53,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't back up the statement that veganism, to some 1483 01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:57,439 Speaker 1: extent vegetarianism, but more veganism, especially as more of a 1484 01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:01,120 Speaker 1: religious practice as it is now, he is so new 1485 01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:05,679 Speaker 1: to our humanity that that we can't really judge its impact. 1486 01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:10,040 Speaker 1: It has no real history in in our society, not 1487 01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:12,639 Speaker 1: long enough, not nearly as long as hunting or any 1488 01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:17,400 Speaker 1: other gathering would would be would be noted. Well, one 1489 01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:20,240 Speaker 1: of the things that I've looked at I wrote a 1490 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,080 Speaker 1: book called The Sacred Art of Hunting where I tried 1491 01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:26,680 Speaker 1: to look at religions all around the world and what 1492 01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:30,000 Speaker 1: do they relate to hunting? And I found there's only 1493 01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:36,720 Speaker 1: one religion, major religion, jain Ism, that um says you 1494 01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:42,960 Speaker 1: can't eat meat, okay, and that's it. Otherwise, every other 1495 01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:46,960 Speaker 1: religion allows people to eat some meat if they feel 1496 01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:52,720 Speaker 1: it's appropriate. The Dalai Lama, for example, eats me and 1497 01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:57,479 Speaker 1: he's willing to talk about it. And a few years 1498 01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,920 Speaker 1: ago I helped produce a constant. But the guy you 1499 01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,320 Speaker 1: do monks, you know, the ones that do that UM 1500 01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of a groaning growl kind of uh singing and 1501 01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:14,519 Speaker 1: vocalization and uh. And I, you know, about an hour 1502 01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,280 Speaker 1: and a half or two hours before they were to appear, 1503 01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 1: I went backstage and says, well, what do you guy 1504 01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,040 Speaker 1: in there? Two dozen of them back there. I said, 1505 01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:25,120 Speaker 1: what do you guys want for for dinner? You know? 1506 01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:28,240 Speaker 1: And I was expecting to go to a vegetarian restaurant. 1507 01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:36,160 Speaker 1: They said, no, big knacks, you know, you know, and 1508 01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:41,679 Speaker 1: so um. And if you look at like in India, 1509 01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:48,679 Speaker 1: the reason that there are some Hindu sex brahma Ism, 1510 01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:51,760 Speaker 1: which which says you're not supposed to eat meat, but 1511 01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:56,360 Speaker 1: at least sixty five or seventy of the Hindus eat 1512 01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:00,479 Speaker 1: some meat and uh, you know, and there's not hunting 1513 01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:04,439 Speaker 1: over there because there's too many people and and it 1514 01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:08,320 Speaker 1: would cause extinctions. But the only way that they allow 1515 01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:12,320 Speaker 1: people to hunt is if they have animals like wild 1516 01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:15,280 Speaker 1: boars and stuff that are destroying crops. Oh, then you 1517 01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:16,960 Speaker 1: can do that. And by the way, you can eat 1518 01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:21,280 Speaker 1: you know. So there's a lot of misinformation out there 1519 01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:25,600 Speaker 1: about this stuff. And look, if if someone wants to 1520 01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,559 Speaker 1: be a vegetarian, I don't have any problem with that. 1521 01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,840 Speaker 1: Is you know, as long as you know you say, look, 1522 01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:35,040 Speaker 1: is this good for my health or not? If it 1523 01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:38,760 Speaker 1: is Mick Jaggers a vegetarian, he seems to be doing 1524 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,879 Speaker 1: pretty well. So great man. You know Nick has abused 1525 01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,639 Speaker 1: his body in too many ways to count. But yeah, 1526 01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:47,559 Speaker 1: I would, I would say that. Yeah. I mean, there's 1527 01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:51,040 Speaker 1: a part of this conversation. And again we've taught you've 1528 01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:52,640 Speaker 1: touched on a lot of your books in defense of 1529 01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:55,360 Speaker 1: hunting being one that's just to me. But hunting is 1530 01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,880 Speaker 1: a sacred art being even more interesting to me because 1531 01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:01,040 Speaker 1: when you start to think about, you know, the philosophies 1532 01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:03,719 Speaker 1: around what hunting is, what it is in different cultures, 1533 01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,800 Speaker 1: what it is to us, um, the connection between hunting 1534 01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:10,320 Speaker 1: and religion, you know, starts to trace you back through 1535 01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:14,600 Speaker 1: through different cultures, through different times, through different ways to 1536 01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,160 Speaker 1: express what hunting means to a collective group. And that that, 1537 01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:20,639 Speaker 1: to me is what's interesting. And when I, um, it's 1538 01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:22,120 Speaker 1: been some years since I read your book, but when 1539 01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:24,960 Speaker 1: I read it, that's what struck me. Is that this 1540 01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:27,840 Speaker 1: connective tissue that you know that's almost invisible to us 1541 01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:31,240 Speaker 1: unless we investigated, um from anywhere from you know, the 1542 01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:36,759 Speaker 1: Native American side, of grounds point to you. You talk about, um, 1543 01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:40,280 Speaker 1: the Yoruba religion and West Africa, all this stuff, Scandinavian 1544 01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:44,920 Speaker 1: and nor Norway, Um, the different gods in the different 1545 01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:46,720 Speaker 1: prayers and things they said to hunting. So there's all 1546 01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,280 Speaker 1: this if you start to trace it, Um, there is 1547 01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:52,400 Speaker 1: a through line there that's worth what, that's worth discovering. 1548 01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:54,360 Speaker 1: And you did it well in that book. And then 1549 01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:56,439 Speaker 1: some of your recent works. Can you tell people you 1550 01:29:56,479 --> 01:29:58,280 Speaker 1: know you've you've already touched us a little bit. But 1551 01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:02,000 Speaker 1: I want to return back to why for you is 1552 01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:04,920 Speaker 1: this so important the connection between religion and hunting and 1553 01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:09,680 Speaker 1: these these indigenous cultures to this continent and others. Can 1554 01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:13,000 Speaker 1: you really just put a fine point on that? Well? 1555 01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:16,400 Speaker 1: You know what? What comes back to me again, growing 1556 01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:20,920 Speaker 1: up on an island in Lake Erie subject to air 1557 01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:26,240 Speaker 1: and water pollution got me into basically asking the question 1558 01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:30,479 Speaker 1: why is this happening? Why are we letting this happen? 1559 01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:35,920 Speaker 1: And when it's causing damage two people and their health 1560 01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:41,440 Speaker 1: as well as you know fish and wildlife and um, 1561 01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:45,679 Speaker 1: what what really you know came through was I wanted 1562 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:50,720 Speaker 1: to study what it was that made people conservationists like 1563 01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:54,720 Speaker 1: Aldo Leopold and you know, and that's what what kind 1564 01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,439 Speaker 1: of you know, that has been a theme through my 1565 01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:01,639 Speaker 1: work that's consistent and even though I've you know, done 1566 01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:06,080 Speaker 1: a variety of different things that we tend to and 1567 01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:08,000 Speaker 1: this is like, you know, I was one of the 1568 01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,400 Speaker 1: people that helped write the first definition of what is 1569 01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:14,519 Speaker 1: environmental education. It would write before Earth Day, and I 1570 01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:16,800 Speaker 1: published the first article in a you know, in a 1571 01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:20,720 Speaker 1: in a major magazine about this and ended up consulting 1572 01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:25,599 Speaker 1: with American National Association as school administrators, I think it 1573 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:29,960 Speaker 1: was and you know, on having to write their policy. 1574 01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:35,080 Speaker 1: And what to me comes back now today is that 1575 01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:41,200 Speaker 1: our educational system is something that needs some help, especially 1576 01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:46,559 Speaker 1: when it gets into how do we develop people who 1577 01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:53,880 Speaker 1: have a real feeling for nature and conservation and botham 1578 01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:59,400 Speaker 1: and we do a lot of information, you know, expression. 1579 01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:05,679 Speaker 1: But there's a guy at Harvard University, Howard Gardner, professor 1580 01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:11,600 Speaker 1: of a psychology, who came up with studying there that 1581 01:32:12,240 --> 01:32:15,519 Speaker 1: what is what is intelligence? And he basically said, i 1582 01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:19,599 Speaker 1: Q is only one thing. They're actually seven or eight 1583 01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:27,920 Speaker 1: different kinds of intelligences, one of which is naturalistic intelligence. 1584 01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:33,000 Speaker 1: And this is the ability to perceive nature and to 1585 01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:39,400 Speaker 1: see different kinds of animals and plants and fish and whatever, 1586 01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:44,559 Speaker 1: to organize them and to understand how they all relate 1587 01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,520 Speaker 1: to each other and to be and like Keddy Roosevelt 1588 01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:49,600 Speaker 1: wasn't it was kind of like an Einstein in this 1589 01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:56,599 Speaker 1: as Aldo Leopold. We don't do enough education to give 1590 01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:02,679 Speaker 1: people the ability to develop that now actualistic intelligence. And 1591 01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:07,280 Speaker 1: it's really what has been very clear is that Well, 1592 01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:11,360 Speaker 1: and here this goes back again. Abraham Maslow was one 1593 01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:14,160 Speaker 1: of the people that that was a real pioneer in 1594 01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:18,479 Speaker 1: modern psychology. I met him and asked him, you know, 1595 01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:23,879 Speaker 1: what did he think about conservation and appreciation in the environment. 1596 01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:27,439 Speaker 1: He said, well, you know, I've studied self actualized people, 1597 01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:31,400 Speaker 1: ones who really are kind of are able to tap 1598 01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:34,280 Speaker 1: into who they really are and what they want to 1599 01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:39,240 Speaker 1: do in their life. And the ones that I have interviewed, 1600 01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:45,760 Speaker 1: they all have a deep love for nature. Okay, so look, man, 1601 01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:48,800 Speaker 1: how do you do that? Well, the research is very 1602 01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,960 Speaker 1: clear on this too. That and I've done some of this, 1603 01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:53,960 Speaker 1: but there are a bunch of other people that have 1604 01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:58,560 Speaker 1: done this. You look for people who have had profound 1605 01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:02,760 Speaker 1: experiences and nature that really touched them, and that's what 1606 01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:06,840 Speaker 1: made them become conservationists. Yeah, and when that connection is 1607 01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,160 Speaker 1: made right, like whether it's at a young age or 1608 01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:10,720 Speaker 1: an older age, it was made in me at a 1609 01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:13,679 Speaker 1: young age through hunting, and that blooms into all kinds 1610 01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:16,880 Speaker 1: of different things. It blooms into who knows what, but 1611 01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:20,559 Speaker 1: it it blooms in in and grows into you know, 1612 01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,560 Speaker 1: anthropology as you have we've already talked about in zoology 1613 01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,000 Speaker 1: and biology and all these these fields of study that 1614 01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:30,040 Speaker 1: can can just lead to that appreciation. I think it's great. Yeah, 1615 01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:32,000 Speaker 1: and you get to the point where you know you're 1616 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:35,559 Speaker 1: out of loophole. Talked about the abra the Abrahmatic concept 1617 01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,080 Speaker 1: of land right where we abuse the land because it's 1618 01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:40,559 Speaker 1: a it's a commodity, it belongs to us. But if 1619 01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:42,680 Speaker 1: it's if we see it as a community, if we 1620 01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:46,280 Speaker 1: all share in it, then we have this innate value. 1621 01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:48,719 Speaker 1: And as I'm tracking all the things we've already covered, 1622 01:34:49,160 --> 01:34:52,519 Speaker 1: especially when you're talking about your your upbringing in in 1623 01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:56,120 Speaker 1: philosophy and in your studies and your teachings, it just 1624 01:34:56,120 --> 01:34:59,559 Speaker 1: seems like there's like if we can instill a deep 1625 01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:04,040 Speaker 1: value you of the natural world and people, then it's 1626 01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:07,479 Speaker 1: endless that it's boundless after that, you know, And what 1627 01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:10,960 Speaker 1: it does basically is that it gets you back in 1628 01:35:11,160 --> 01:35:16,120 Speaker 1: touch with that unconscious in each one of us that 1629 01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:21,479 Speaker 1: we don't do enough to really explore, you know, I 1630 01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:26,680 Speaker 1: mean to me, there there is a real need in 1631 01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:31,080 Speaker 1: our schools today to help people get in touch with 1632 01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:34,720 Speaker 1: who they really are. And you know, I mean, if 1633 01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:38,440 Speaker 1: I look back at myself, one of the things early 1634 01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:40,920 Speaker 1: on which I like to do but I didn't develop 1635 01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:43,720 Speaker 1: for the longest time, was I like to be a performer, 1636 01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:48,479 Speaker 1: you know, now, you know, I mean, it just it 1637 01:35:48,640 --> 01:35:50,880 Speaker 1: was something there and I got it all kind of 1638 01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, involved in these other things. And then Joe 1639 01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:56,240 Speaker 1: Campbell was the one again that just said, hey, you know, 1640 01:35:56,760 --> 01:36:01,639 Speaker 1: you're going to get back into mainstream media and entertainment stuff. 1641 01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:04,880 Speaker 1: And you know, I was a musician for a while. 1642 01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:12,280 Speaker 1: I had a comedy rock band for what it was. 1643 01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:16,880 Speaker 1: It was what what we did was this was back 1644 01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:21,679 Speaker 1: back in the Bay Area, was it was, and Earth 1645 01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:24,799 Speaker 1: Day was coming, and so I had this idea about 1646 01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:30,040 Speaker 1: how about having a contest for kids in this area 1647 01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:36,000 Speaker 1: to design a costume for a a character who is 1648 01:36:36,200 --> 01:36:41,000 Speaker 1: a promotes recycling and you know, and so we got 1649 01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:44,200 Speaker 1: a several hundred kids that submitted these things and worked 1650 01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:46,640 Speaker 1: it out so they get a free trip to Disneyland 1651 01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:50,760 Speaker 1: for their family. And one that one was this one 1652 01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:54,559 Speaker 1: kid who drew a picture It looked like one of 1653 01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:57,560 Speaker 1: the Hopie Kachinas, but he was made out of garbage 1654 01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:00,680 Speaker 1: and his name was recycled Man, you know. And so 1655 01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:06,320 Speaker 1: we had this award for everything, and somebody says, um, 1656 01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, when we're fishing, well, James, you know, what 1657 01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:11,439 Speaker 1: are you gonna do with Recyclement? I don't know, you know. 1658 01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:14,920 Speaker 1: He says, well, look, the person actually who was bringing 1659 01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:18,320 Speaker 1: this up was one of the people working for George 1660 01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:22,880 Speaker 1: Lucas in Industrial Light Magic, and he said, well, look, um, 1661 01:37:22,920 --> 01:37:25,679 Speaker 1: you know, I think this this guy, recycle Man, could 1662 01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:29,800 Speaker 1: be a real character. We'll make the costume. Because so 1663 01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:36,160 Speaker 1: Industrial Light and Magic made the costume and nobody wanted 1664 01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:38,200 Speaker 1: to wear and I said, well, hell, I'll give it 1665 01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:41,759 Speaker 1: a try. And so I ended up writing a song 1666 01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:46,479 Speaker 1: and I opened for Jesse Colin Young and literally had 1667 01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:48,960 Speaker 1: at one of the Earth Day things. Please tell me 1668 01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:51,759 Speaker 1: I could find us on YouTube somewhere, you know, And 1669 01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:55,240 Speaker 1: and it's like what happened was people kept saying, well, 1670 01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:58,600 Speaker 1: recycled Man, come here, recycled Man. Well that well, I 1671 01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,800 Speaker 1: knew some musicians James Gurley from Big Brother, you know him, 1672 01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:08,040 Speaker 1: ruga booker who were from who's a drummer, his wife 1673 01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:11,760 Speaker 1: who had been it was a drummer also, you know, 1674 01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:16,280 Speaker 1: and h and another guy who played bass. And so 1675 01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:20,000 Speaker 1: we created Recycled Man in the No Trash band and 1676 01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:23,519 Speaker 1: we played for about three years before the band broke up, 1677 01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:27,639 Speaker 1: and you know, got on television and performed stuff and whatever. 1678 01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:31,840 Speaker 1: And it's just things like that that people could do 1679 01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:36,080 Speaker 1: that instead of yes we should, don't you know, know 1680 01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:40,240 Speaker 1: all the statistics about recycling and everything else, but hey, 1681 01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, also find a way to get across the 1682 01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,720 Speaker 1: same message where it's fun, you know, yeah, and you're 1683 01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:48,920 Speaker 1: you're addressing what you're talking about there and a lot 1684 01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:51,280 Speaker 1: of what you've already talked about. It's kind of this 1685 01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:55,360 Speaker 1: weird micro macro issue. Like on one level, you could 1686 01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,679 Speaker 1: get in a classroom as you did and teach people 1687 01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:01,360 Speaker 1: about environmental psychology and and and how to appreciate nature. 1688 01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:03,960 Speaker 1: That's one thing you can do. You kind of plant 1689 01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:07,080 Speaker 1: the seed there. But then on a broad level, on 1690 01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:11,440 Speaker 1: a larger level, how do you address these increasingly complex 1691 01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:14,760 Speaker 1: topics and simplify them and make them fun, make them easy, 1692 01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:17,320 Speaker 1: list to make them uh for for lack of a 1693 01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:20,799 Speaker 1: better term, entertaining. And I think that's maybe the failure 1694 01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:25,799 Speaker 1: of of hunting and conservation in the mainstream, because certainly 1695 01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:29,200 Speaker 1: the vegan ideology is pretty easy to boil down. Don't 1696 01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:32,400 Speaker 1: eat meat because things, so things won't die, that's super easy. 1697 01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:35,519 Speaker 1: Well it's not easy, is hey. The natural world works 1698 01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,800 Speaker 1: like this, and this is how hunting and fishing and 1699 01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:41,960 Speaker 1: conservation push it forward. And I've grown to kind of 1700 01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:44,400 Speaker 1: believe that that's our greatest challenge is taking that really 1701 01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:48,200 Speaker 1: complex thing and somehow making compelling in an increasing in 1702 01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:50,400 Speaker 1: the world that increasingly just wants to be anecdotal and 1703 01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:53,679 Speaker 1: be pandered too. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, in the media, 1704 01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:56,679 Speaker 1: to me is just just sad what's happened with the media. 1705 01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:02,360 Speaker 1: Jesus ten to seventeen time more negative and sensational news 1706 01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:07,000 Speaker 1: than objective growth. It's awful. Sixty eight of the people 1707 01:40:07,200 --> 01:40:10,679 Speaker 1: do not trust the news because there's no objective truth. 1708 01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,040 Speaker 1: There's everybody's got an agenda or an ego or some 1709 01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:16,160 Speaker 1: something they want to sell you. I mean it's to 1710 01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:20,960 Speaker 1: the point. Yeah, you know, crises. You know, it's like, 1711 01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:25,280 Speaker 1: um God, there's a guy, Stephen Pinker who's at Harvard also, 1712 01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:28,479 Speaker 1: you know, and and he's got a Ted Talks thing 1713 01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:32,400 Speaker 1: about this, about how to show what what are the realities? 1714 01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:36,559 Speaker 1: You know, he said, look, you know, people will get 1715 01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:41,280 Speaker 1: news that reports sensational, horrible things happening as if the 1716 01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:45,560 Speaker 1: whole world's going to hell in a handbasket, said in reality, 1717 01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:49,759 Speaker 1: like for crime, Actually, since nine the amount of crime 1718 01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:53,040 Speaker 1: in the United States has been going down dramatically, you know, 1719 01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:55,840 Speaker 1: and no one seems to celebrate that. No, this is 1720 01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:58,800 Speaker 1: there's never been a safer, more productive time to live 1721 01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,679 Speaker 1: in this country, never And if you if you turn 1722 01:41:01,720 --> 01:41:05,080 Speaker 1: on Fox News or MSNBC, we're we're always uh, we're 1723 01:41:05,120 --> 01:41:08,479 Speaker 1: always right next to the next breaking controversy that that 1724 01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:11,599 Speaker 1: you need to be angry about or scared about, because 1725 01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:13,760 Speaker 1: those are the motions that lead action, and action leads 1726 01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:16,360 Speaker 1: to money and views and ratings and all those things. 1727 01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:18,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a sick kind of cycle that we're in 1728 01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:20,360 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure how we break it. Do you 1729 01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:22,960 Speaker 1: do you have any do you have any idea how 1730 01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:26,599 Speaker 1: to break that? You know one thing that that to me, 1731 01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, when you brought up Fox, I mean, for 1732 01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:32,640 Speaker 1: better or for worse. Fox is the only news at 1733 01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:37,240 Speaker 1: least online that even has a section about the outdoors, 1734 01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, in their in their daily news. Now all 1735 01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:42,880 Speaker 1: of it, some of it is crisis oriented stuff, but 1736 01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:46,280 Speaker 1: there's some other stuff which is pretty good. But you know, 1737 01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:50,000 Speaker 1: I remember growing up how all the major newspapers used 1738 01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:52,519 Speaker 1: to have an outdoor page at least once a week 1739 01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:55,479 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And how many nd you have Now, 1740 01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:59,479 Speaker 1: well you said, did you worked at ESPN ESPN Outdoors? 1741 01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:02,400 Speaker 1: I when I first broke into the the industry. I 1742 01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:06,320 Speaker 1: remember the day that they cut the outdoor programming from ESPN. 1743 01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:09,000 Speaker 1: I remember that day. I grew up on that stuff 1744 01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:11,439 Speaker 1: and I was very sad. I was that sad. I'm 1745 01:42:11,439 --> 01:42:13,880 Speaker 1: like the end of an era. It's yeah, I know, 1746 01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:20,080 Speaker 1: and it's me happy to sell my house for you 1747 01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:22,439 Speaker 1: that it was for me. But yeah, I mean I 1748 01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:25,400 Speaker 1: remember coming up watching that was a Sunday thing that 1749 01:42:25,479 --> 01:42:28,400 Speaker 1: we did at my house as we watched those those programs, 1750 01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:31,200 Speaker 1: and for that to be over, and I remember reading 1751 01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:33,879 Speaker 1: and and thinking at the time, this was pretty shocking 1752 01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:35,960 Speaker 1: that the you know, it was gonna be all everything 1753 01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:39,840 Speaker 1: was gonna be streaming and and live programming, live sports 1754 01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:41,679 Speaker 1: was gonna be huge because it was in the moment. 1755 01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:45,040 Speaker 1: And then these outdoor shows they're they're not in the moment, 1756 01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:47,759 Speaker 1: so they weren't as valuable, and and I just remember 1757 01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:50,760 Speaker 1: thinking how how shortsighted that was and is to this 1758 01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:53,360 Speaker 1: day that there's nothing about the outdoors on those those 1759 01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:56,240 Speaker 1: types of mainstream channels and it and it's just, you know, 1760 01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:58,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're dealing with this stuff right now with 1761 01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:04,040 Speaker 1: the number of hunters has been declining, and you know, 1762 01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:07,679 Speaker 1: I've been talking with some folks back in California about 1763 01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:12,320 Speaker 1: all this, and Jesus, you know, we need to find 1764 01:43:12,439 --> 01:43:16,519 Speaker 1: ways to help people get back in touch with the 1765 01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,680 Speaker 1: natural world and its power and presence. And there's a 1766 01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:24,360 Speaker 1: lot of good research that supports that. But it's like, 1767 01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, our school should be teaching that to get 1768 01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:29,680 Speaker 1: kids out and you know, it doesn't mean that they 1769 01:43:29,680 --> 01:43:32,600 Speaker 1: have to remember all all the names of everything. We 1770 01:43:32,800 --> 01:43:34,599 Speaker 1: just to go out and have a good time. I mean, 1771 01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:39,400 Speaker 1: I remember one thing where this first introduced me to 1772 01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,920 Speaker 1: this is that back um in ann Arbor during grad school, 1773 01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:48,600 Speaker 1: I paid for my way through school by running the 1774 01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:52,080 Speaker 1: environmental education program in the ann Arbor schools where you 1775 01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,880 Speaker 1: took kids out on field trips. And I took this 1776 01:43:56,040 --> 01:44:01,439 Speaker 1: one group of kids out to the play out there 1777 01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:04,599 Speaker 1: was west of town. It was actually a hunting preserve. 1778 01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:07,919 Speaker 1: And we got there and got out of the bus 1779 01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:10,920 Speaker 1: and we were to look at look at different habitats 1780 01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:15,439 Speaker 1: and concepts, you know, like ecological things. And I could 1781 01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:20,479 Speaker 1: hear off in the distance sand hill cranes calling, and 1782 01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:22,600 Speaker 1: I said, Jesus, kids, do you want to have a 1783 01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:26,280 Speaker 1: real experience. We're going to go stalking and see how 1784 01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:30,000 Speaker 1: close we can get to sand hill cranes. So I 1785 01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:33,480 Speaker 1: got them down and I showed them how to walk quietly, 1786 01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:36,599 Speaker 1: and we started going and it was about a quarter 1787 01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:40,040 Speaker 1: of a mile away, down in a swamp, and we 1788 01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:44,600 Speaker 1: ended up crawling the last hundred yards or so to 1789 01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:47,439 Speaker 1: get up within about fifty yards of a dozen or 1790 01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:50,080 Speaker 1: so sandhill cranes that were down there, and they were 1791 01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:54,559 Speaker 1: all calling, and finally the cranes took off, and the 1792 01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:59,800 Speaker 1: kids were just mesberized by this and what happened after 1793 01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,400 Speaker 1: at and these were kids for you know, who lived 1794 01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,960 Speaker 1: in downtown Anne Arbor. This particular launch. A lot of 1795 01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:08,679 Speaker 1: them had never really gone out to any place like this, 1796 01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:11,880 Speaker 1: and so I let him just roam around for a while. 1797 01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:15,639 Speaker 1: And finally this girl comes up and she's got a feather. 1798 01:45:19,600 --> 01:45:23,920 Speaker 1: What what's this is a feather? Feeling she'd never seen 1799 01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:28,240 Speaker 1: a large feather, let alone one from a sound teal crane. 1800 01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:31,640 Speaker 1: And she got that thing and took it back to 1801 01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:35,639 Speaker 1: the bus, carried all the way back to ann Arbor 1802 01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:38,519 Speaker 1: and the last nice offer she was running off to 1803 01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:41,640 Speaker 1: go home to show her family the feather that's in us, 1804 01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:45,040 Speaker 1: that's in us can natural curiosities in US. It's it's 1805 01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:49,320 Speaker 1: bread into people. And if we can create things like that. 1806 01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:52,439 Speaker 1: I know of some research which has been done in 1807 01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:56,559 Speaker 1: down in the l A area where they took a 1808 01:45:56,720 --> 01:45:59,679 Speaker 1: school in in the you know, right in the middle 1809 01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:03,880 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles, and they put a garden in there 1810 01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:08,320 Speaker 1: and suddenly school attendants got better and better, you know, 1811 01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:11,320 Speaker 1: and it's like and that they were studying the garden, 1812 01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:15,360 Speaker 1: how does it grow? Well, you know, it's just simple 1813 01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:22,040 Speaker 1: things like that that provide firsthand contact, that develop other access, 1814 01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, points of our own soul. And that's to me, 1815 01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:28,960 Speaker 1: what really is, you know, what we need to be 1816 01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:32,080 Speaker 1: doing at this point. I mean, yeah, there might be 1817 01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:35,679 Speaker 1: climate change, you know, and stuff like that, but there's 1818 01:46:35,760 --> 01:46:39,439 Speaker 1: a lot of data that questions some of that, and 1819 01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:43,280 Speaker 1: some of pink pinker stuff is quite quite good at that. 1820 01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:48,120 Speaker 1: But you know, the reality simply here is that you 1821 01:46:48,240 --> 01:46:54,080 Speaker 1: can try to influence people by throwing crises and catastrophes 1822 01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:56,519 Speaker 1: at them all the time, and what it ends up 1823 01:46:56,560 --> 01:46:59,679 Speaker 1: with is it becomes one of the reasons why we've 1824 01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:04,519 Speaker 1: got some pretty high levels of anxiety disorder today, you know, 1825 01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:08,000 Speaker 1: and you know, get people outside for God's sakes and 1826 01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,559 Speaker 1: to enjoy the world and and experience it. Yeah, one 1827 01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,960 Speaker 1: of the major problems I've I've I've talked to a 1828 01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:18,479 Speaker 1: lot of people that that have turned turned to activism, 1829 01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:22,320 Speaker 1: from vegans to environmentalists that have turned to act activism. 1830 01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:26,479 Speaker 1: And I understand feeling need to to be a proponent 1831 01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:30,120 Speaker 1: for whatever uh solution you think is out there for 1832 01:47:30,120 --> 01:47:31,880 Speaker 1: whatever ills are in the world. I get get that. 1833 01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:34,519 Speaker 1: I feel that myself a lot. But what I what 1834 01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:37,120 Speaker 1: has been concerning to me, and I don't know if 1835 01:47:37,160 --> 01:47:41,719 Speaker 1: you've seen this, is how quickly we go from hearing 1836 01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,320 Speaker 1: what the problem is or or someone positing well here's 1837 01:47:45,320 --> 01:47:48,679 Speaker 1: our issue with our environment or a climate, or issue 1838 01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:54,280 Speaker 1: with animal agriculture. How quickly we turn to activism. Whether 1839 01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:57,880 Speaker 1: rather than turning to activism, we would turn back to 1840 01:47:58,680 --> 01:48:01,920 Speaker 1: the natural world, learn more about it, study it, fall 1841 01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:05,400 Speaker 1: into that um, more intellectual side of it, rather than 1842 01:48:05,439 --> 01:48:09,400 Speaker 1: turn to activism, which I think is more sensational in 1843 01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:13,080 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways easier. UM. I've seen that 1844 01:48:13,120 --> 01:48:16,880 Speaker 1: a lot, and it concerns because my personal feeling, I'd 1845 01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:19,519 Speaker 1: be interested in how you feel, is that exactly what 1846 01:48:19,560 --> 01:48:22,400 Speaker 1: you're just describing is the best way for me personally. 1847 01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:25,439 Speaker 1: If I was to go learn about ecosystems and the 1848 01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:29,280 Speaker 1: different ecosystem services of different wildlife and how the natural 1849 01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:31,759 Speaker 1: world works, I'd be better equipped to deal with any 1850 01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:36,200 Speaker 1: problems that I'm I face on a small or large level. 1851 01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:38,439 Speaker 1: And I just don't see that as much as I'd 1852 01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:39,960 Speaker 1: like to. I see a lot of people turning to 1853 01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:43,920 Speaker 1: that activism. They go shout um without really having done 1854 01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:47,599 Speaker 1: the work. Now I know it. It's I think part 1855 01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:51,240 Speaker 1: of it is is the media itself, and people can 1856 01:48:51,280 --> 01:48:56,000 Speaker 1: get attention, you know, and if they are upset about 1857 01:48:56,080 --> 01:49:00,800 Speaker 1: things on some level that um, if in something that 1858 01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:05,240 Speaker 1: you can use to express your your feelings about whether 1859 01:49:05,360 --> 01:49:09,120 Speaker 1: what they're talking about is what it's really what's upsetting them, 1860 01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:13,320 Speaker 1: or not is something to look at. It's like with 1861 01:49:13,439 --> 01:49:16,960 Speaker 1: a Helman thing. You know, if the animals chasing you, 1862 01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:19,840 Speaker 1: you know that that could be a very scary dream 1863 01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:22,040 Speaker 1: and it could you know, move you to want to 1864 01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:25,040 Speaker 1: go out and do things. But the reality is is 1865 01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:29,040 Speaker 1: that the animals are trying to do is to get 1866 01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:32,160 Speaker 1: you to get back in touch with who you are. 1867 01:49:32,920 --> 01:49:36,400 Speaker 1: And look, you know, if people ask about about how 1868 01:49:36,439 --> 01:49:38,640 Speaker 1: could you be well meet eat or God, will you 1869 01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:41,400 Speaker 1: guys in meet eat or all you have to do 1870 01:49:41,479 --> 01:49:45,800 Speaker 1: is say, look, go look in a mirror. Where are 1871 01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:49,120 Speaker 1: your eyes? Are they on the front of your face 1872 01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:51,760 Speaker 1: or on the sides? Well, of course they're on the 1873 01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:55,720 Speaker 1: front of your face. Okay, what animals have eyes on 1874 01:49:55,760 --> 01:50:01,519 Speaker 1: the front of their face? Omnivores and carnivores her before us. 1875 01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:03,880 Speaker 1: Where are their eyes or they're on the side so 1876 01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:06,720 Speaker 1: they can better see look for something coming after them. 1877 01:50:06,760 --> 01:50:09,479 Speaker 1: So the reality is is that you want to see 1878 01:50:09,479 --> 01:50:15,240 Speaker 1: if if our nature involves the the idea of being 1879 01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:19,920 Speaker 1: a carnivore. Okay, well there it is right in your face. Yeah, yeah, 1880 01:50:19,920 --> 01:50:21,400 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's so much of that. That's what 1881 01:50:21,680 --> 01:50:23,720 Speaker 1: part of this show. People ask me why do we 1882 01:50:23,800 --> 01:50:25,559 Speaker 1: Why do you like to talk about this and this 1883 01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:28,040 Speaker 1: and that. We talked about anthropology a lot. I recently 1884 01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,880 Speaker 1: traveled to the Smithsonian to talk to a paleo anthropologist. 1885 01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:34,000 Speaker 1: It was it was a really interesting conversation to me. 1886 01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:36,080 Speaker 1: Might have been boring to some other people, but that 1887 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:38,519 Speaker 1: was the crux of the conversation. Is when I think 1888 01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:41,120 Speaker 1: about what I think about my own humanity and kind 1889 01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:44,639 Speaker 1: of trace this thing back. Instead of trying to trace 1890 01:50:45,040 --> 01:50:48,519 Speaker 1: paleoanthropology to to prove to people that hunting is the 1891 01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:50,160 Speaker 1: way to go or not the way to go, I'm 1892 01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:52,360 Speaker 1: doing it because I'm curious and i want to know 1893 01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:54,840 Speaker 1: those things so I'm better equipped to handle that question 1894 01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:57,639 Speaker 1: when it comes up. Um And I see that too. 1895 01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,960 Speaker 1: People are trying to reverse engineer of their own ideas. 1896 01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:03,840 Speaker 1: They're trying to start with, well, the world is the 1897 01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:06,679 Speaker 1: world is falling apart, or the world is this way. 1898 01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:09,559 Speaker 1: Hunting is the best, Hunting is terrible, and people trying 1899 01:51:09,560 --> 01:51:12,960 Speaker 1: to reverse engineer on the world to see it with 1900 01:51:13,080 --> 01:51:15,280 Speaker 1: something they've already decided, and that that to me has 1901 01:51:15,320 --> 01:51:19,120 Speaker 1: always just been it's just rings untrue. It just doesn't 1902 01:51:19,120 --> 01:51:22,120 Speaker 1: seem like, um, the way that we should walk through 1903 01:51:22,160 --> 01:51:26,639 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's just being 1904 01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:31,120 Speaker 1: close to nature. You know. Again this is comes to 1905 01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:34,640 Speaker 1: my own stuff that I got into thanks to the 1906 01:51:34,720 --> 01:51:38,880 Speaker 1: lummies got me involved with it. Actually, where you know, 1907 01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:41,360 Speaker 1: you begin to say, well, look, you know, there are 1908 01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:46,120 Speaker 1: there are kind of subtle qualities about places and nature 1909 01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:49,000 Speaker 1: and whatever. How does it make you feel? Well, it 1910 01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:51,320 Speaker 1: makes you feel pretty good. Good, then why don't you 1911 01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:56,720 Speaker 1: honor it? You know? I mean that that's literally the 1912 01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of thing and and that's such a more cultures 1913 01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:07,439 Speaker 1: around the world view places as special than not. And 1914 01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:10,679 Speaker 1: you know, aside from what Indians do in the United States, 1915 01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:13,840 Speaker 1: we don't do much of that sort of thing. But 1916 01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:18,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you in Japan, most of the national parks 1917 01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:24,200 Speaker 1: over there are tied into Shintoism and uh you know, 1918 01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:30,120 Speaker 1: and they have um ceremonies to honor the animals and um, 1919 01:52:30,200 --> 01:52:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, and stuff like that. Oh. There is a 1920 01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:36,680 Speaker 1: funny thing here though with the Japanese that um, I mean, 1921 01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:39,679 Speaker 1: I went over I've been over there twice on different things. 1922 01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:43,320 Speaker 1: And some of my books are are republished over there. 1923 01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:47,599 Speaker 1: But um, what what has happened was is that they've 1924 01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:51,759 Speaker 1: had very strong controls over firearms. They are only about 1925 01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:57,600 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand um hunters in all of Japan with 1926 01:52:58,160 --> 01:53:03,160 Speaker 1: twice seven million people, So what is this the consequence? Yes, 1927 01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:06,040 Speaker 1: there aren't many people shooting each other because there aren't 1928 01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:09,320 Speaker 1: that many guns. But do you know what's happening with 1929 01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:17,280 Speaker 1: deer and wild boar. They are destroying a lot of agriculture. 1930 01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:20,640 Speaker 1: So right now there's a big push going on in 1931 01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:25,639 Speaker 1: Japan to get people to be bull hunters they can 1932 01:53:25,720 --> 01:53:30,639 Speaker 1: go out and help control the deer and wild boar. Yeah, 1933 01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:32,680 Speaker 1: and that and that gives all the way back to that. 1934 01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:35,760 Speaker 1: There's threads in that story to all the things we've 1935 01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:38,200 Speaker 1: talked about a lot of them. There's there's the moral 1936 01:53:38,240 --> 01:53:40,519 Speaker 1: absolutism that some people like to put on the world. 1937 01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:43,160 Speaker 1: That just means like an ethical view that that says 1938 01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:47,880 Speaker 1: everything is right or wrong intrinsically more. That's that more absolutism, 1939 01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:51,360 Speaker 1: and that is often that often comes to be true 1940 01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:55,160 Speaker 1: with secular In the secular context and within religion, people 1941 01:53:55,160 --> 01:53:58,599 Speaker 1: say that this is right and wrong based on my religion. Um, yeah, 1942 01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:00,720 Speaker 1: and that's that's again, if you go out in the 1943 01:54:00,760 --> 01:54:04,280 Speaker 1: natural world, you know that's not true. That there's objectivism 1944 01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:08,040 Speaker 1: and there's consequentialism, and there's other things out there that 1945 01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,040 Speaker 1: can help you learn, but it's it's hard to go. 1946 01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:14,240 Speaker 1: It's hard in those situations where even in Japan, where 1947 01:54:14,520 --> 01:54:16,200 Speaker 1: you know you're gonna have to kill some of these things, 1948 01:54:16,360 --> 01:54:18,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to if you if you want to 1949 01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:21,840 Speaker 1: get the balance that's required. Um. So it all those 1950 01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:25,360 Speaker 1: things tied together for me, Yeah, they do. And the 1951 01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:28,600 Speaker 1: and that in the sacred art of hunting. Um, you 1952 01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:32,360 Speaker 1: know what I've done, and that m is that I 1953 01:54:32,440 --> 01:54:36,200 Speaker 1: looked at all the different major religions of the world 1954 01:54:37,160 --> 01:54:41,200 Speaker 1: and to see what did they think about hunting. And 1955 01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:45,960 Speaker 1: it's very clear, you know that they have procedures. And 1956 01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,920 Speaker 1: when I was growing up back on on the island 1957 01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:53,160 Speaker 1: grows Seal, I mean, it was the common thing that 1958 01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:57,160 Speaker 1: the Episcopal Church every year on the eve of deer 1959 01:54:57,280 --> 01:55:02,400 Speaker 1: season would have a special inner that we're blessings were 1960 01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:06,160 Speaker 1: given to the hunters, and that at the end of 1961 01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:10,320 Speaker 1: dear season that hunters would bring in some of some 1962 01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:12,640 Speaker 1: of their venison and share it with people, you know, 1963 01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:16,280 Speaker 1: and so St. Hubert for God's sake is this is 1964 01:55:16,360 --> 01:55:20,200 Speaker 1: the is the patron saint of hunting. I mean, and 1965 01:55:20,360 --> 01:55:23,600 Speaker 1: he's honored more in Europe than he is here. But 1966 01:55:23,760 --> 01:55:28,040 Speaker 1: it Christianity has some real strong things like this. And 1967 01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:32,160 Speaker 1: there are many different sects of Buddhism that they live 1968 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,920 Speaker 1: with a notion that they are not supposed to kill things, 1969 01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:39,320 Speaker 1: but they but somebody else can do it. They can 1970 01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:43,040 Speaker 1: eat them. Yeah, you wrote about you was issued write 1971 01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:45,640 Speaker 1: about the Muslim Code of Conduct for ethical hunting. I 1972 01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:48,320 Speaker 1: thought that was the interesting one. Take people through your 1973 01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:52,839 Speaker 1: knowledge of that. Well, it's basically there there are prayers, 1974 01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,840 Speaker 1: certain prayers that are to be said when one goes 1975 01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:02,080 Speaker 1: hunting and one is about to shoot something. There are 1976 01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:06,440 Speaker 1: definite sets of prayers that go with that that fit 1977 01:56:06,560 --> 01:56:09,960 Speaker 1: into the Muslim tradition. And you know when we bring 1978 01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:11,680 Speaker 1: that up in that part of the world. Also the 1979 01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:15,480 Speaker 1: same for for Jewish um that there are they don't 1980 01:56:15,560 --> 01:56:21,640 Speaker 1: eat cloven hoofed animals, but otherwise you know, they're they're happy, 1981 01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,720 Speaker 1: they eat eat other stuff that they hunt. I mean, 1982 01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,280 Speaker 1: I've got some good friends I've gone turkey hunting with 1983 01:56:27,360 --> 01:56:30,960 Speaker 1: their Jewish So one of the things that I love 1984 01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:33,800 Speaker 1: in that in that book. And by the way, if 1985 01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:36,120 Speaker 1: there's a publisher out there and I want to do 1986 01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:41,160 Speaker 1: a second edition the plays, I want to do it. 1987 01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:47,360 Speaker 1: But in every year, around St. Hubert's Day, which is 1988 01:56:47,520 --> 01:56:53,800 Speaker 1: in the beginning of November, in this one, St Ignace, 1989 01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:57,200 Speaker 1: I believe, is the is the town, they have a 1990 01:56:57,280 --> 01:57:00,960 Speaker 1: special ceremony to honor St. Hubert. And what it starts 1991 01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:06,320 Speaker 1: out with is hunters dressed in camel go into the 1992 01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:10,480 Speaker 1: church and they form an archway, and some of them 1993 01:57:10,480 --> 01:57:14,240 Speaker 1: bring their dogs too, and they form an archway with 1994 01:57:14,360 --> 01:57:20,640 Speaker 1: their guns over which then the priests and some members 1995 01:57:20,760 --> 01:57:26,120 Speaker 1: of the choir and the Mounties will march into the 1996 01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:31,200 Speaker 1: church with them where they will celebrate St. Hubert and 1997 01:57:31,280 --> 01:57:34,520 Speaker 1: they bring the hunting dogs in to be blessed as well. 1998 01:57:35,080 --> 01:57:39,120 Speaker 1: I mean, that's powerful stuff, and you know, and it 1999 01:57:39,320 --> 01:57:44,320 Speaker 1: and it and it I think it ends up reinforcing 2000 01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:50,440 Speaker 1: people wanting to be ethical and honor. Wildlife is a 2001 01:57:50,600 --> 01:57:54,440 Speaker 1: source of very important food for us. Yeah. Yeah, And 2002 01:57:54,440 --> 01:57:57,120 Speaker 1: then when you start to then that goes back to 2003 01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:01,960 Speaker 1: the value conversation. You know, religion really sets values and 2004 01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:04,200 Speaker 1: structure around values in a lot of ways, and that's 2005 01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, one of the one of its main one 2006 01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:10,600 Speaker 1: of its main advantages for people that that believe that 2007 01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:13,320 Speaker 1: you have the structure, the set of beliefs that's instilled 2008 01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:15,040 Speaker 1: in you, and you have faith that those are true 2009 01:58:15,360 --> 01:58:17,240 Speaker 1: and those are good, and then you move through the 2010 01:58:17,240 --> 01:58:19,600 Speaker 1: world like that. And when you could put when I 2011 01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:21,960 Speaker 1: read that book originally, and when I think about religion 2012 01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:23,760 Speaker 1: and hunting, I think about that, I'm like, wow, Man, 2013 01:58:24,720 --> 01:58:27,480 Speaker 1: if my religion says hunting is sacred, animals are sacred. 2014 01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:30,840 Speaker 1: Hunting dogs in this case are sacred, I'm going to 2015 01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:33,880 Speaker 1: treat them with a lot more respect than reverence. And 2016 01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:37,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pass those traditions down in a way that 2017 01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:40,880 Speaker 1: that will last. My father taught me actually a prayer 2018 01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:45,200 Speaker 1: that basically, when you're out hunting and you see something 2019 01:58:45,840 --> 01:58:50,400 Speaker 1: that you you you might shoot at, you know, you 2020 01:58:50,400 --> 01:58:54,240 Speaker 1: you essentially have to say to yourself, God, please, you know, 2021 01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:58,760 Speaker 1: if this is all legal in everything like that, please 2022 01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:03,160 Speaker 1: let me if I shoot at this animal, let me 2023 01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:08,840 Speaker 1: kill it quick and clean or miss it completely, you know, 2024 01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:14,840 Speaker 1: and itself just develops a sense of reverence for that um. 2025 01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:17,880 Speaker 1: And I think that's one thing that it would be 2026 01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:20,560 Speaker 1: that should be important to me is in part of 2027 01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,960 Speaker 1: hunter education is to teach some of that, let people 2028 01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:27,440 Speaker 1: be aware of that and feel comfortable with that kind 2029 01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:29,920 Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah yeah, and and teach them like I 2030 01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:32,840 Speaker 1: know that. You know, you're never going to teach moral 2031 01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:37,760 Speaker 1: OBJECTIVI adjectivism say that word right um in in these pins. 2032 01:59:37,840 --> 01:59:39,240 Speaker 1: But there is an idea that you can say is 2033 01:59:39,240 --> 01:59:41,280 Speaker 1: like the natural world, there isn't just right or wrong, 2034 01:59:41,400 --> 01:59:44,480 Speaker 1: especially when we talk about our own cohabitation and the 2035 01:59:44,520 --> 01:59:47,960 Speaker 1: way that we, you know, affect the natural world, that 2036 01:59:48,080 --> 01:59:50,560 Speaker 1: there's no there's no one right or one wrong. Killing 2037 01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:53,600 Speaker 1: an animal in one case can be different. I mean, 2038 01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,480 Speaker 1: the factory matter does not. It doesn't depend solely on 2039 01:59:56,960 --> 02:00:02,400 Speaker 1: the social customer, individual acceptance for look at look at 2040 02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:06,200 Speaker 1: it this way too. You know about you know, people, 2041 02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:09,360 Speaker 1: there's this stuff that's been coming on about extinction, you know, 2042 02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:13,840 Speaker 1: and birds going extinct and things like that. Well, yeah, 2043 02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:17,040 Speaker 1: we did lose passenger vision and that was several billion 2044 02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:21,600 Speaker 1: birds that disappeared. But look right now, we've kept at 2045 02:00:21,680 --> 02:00:25,360 Speaker 1: least thirty million deer white tailed deer running around and 2046 02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:30,000 Speaker 1: c w D is developing. I mean the way you 2047 02:00:30,160 --> 02:00:34,480 Speaker 1: stop it or or discourage it spreading is to harvest deer. 2048 02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:39,040 Speaker 1: We didn't until not that many years ago there were 2049 02:00:39,040 --> 02:00:42,360 Speaker 1: no wild boar running around. Well, good god, they were 2050 02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:47,120 Speaker 1: brought over here and released in Texas. They're somewhere between 2051 02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:49,680 Speaker 1: six and nine billion of them running around. This is 2052 02:00:49,880 --> 02:00:55,160 Speaker 1: horrible damage to agricultural crops. You do you have Eurasian 2053 02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:58,440 Speaker 1: collar doves up there. Not that I were a giant, 2054 02:00:58,480 --> 02:01:01,800 Speaker 1: been in Montana long enough, but I've seen him around Texas. Boy, 2055 02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:04,440 Speaker 1: we got them here. They're all over the place. How 2056 02:01:04,440 --> 02:01:07,120 Speaker 1: about Asian carp For God's sakes, they get into the 2057 02:01:07,160 --> 02:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Great Lake, they will destroy. I used to live in 2058 02:01:09,720 --> 02:01:13,920 Speaker 1: the Illinois River. They're destroying that place. They're destroying. Yeah. No, 2059 02:01:14,160 --> 02:01:15,920 Speaker 1: that so that that that goes back to that the 2060 02:01:15,920 --> 02:01:18,240 Speaker 1: whole animal rights idea that there's a right and wrong, 2061 02:01:18,360 --> 02:01:22,200 Speaker 1: don't kill, don't you know, no abject suffering, all those 2062 02:01:22,200 --> 02:01:26,960 Speaker 1: things that that just doesn't it's not support. In California, 2063 02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:33,600 Speaker 1: there are new tria there like beaver sized delicious. Yeah, 2064 02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:40,600 Speaker 1: like literally beaver size muskrats. They are very prolific and 2065 02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:44,720 Speaker 1: they are now found in forty nine states. And you know, 2066 02:01:45,160 --> 02:01:48,680 Speaker 1: if if you want to make sure you're going to 2067 02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:51,640 Speaker 1: get your vegetables, you sure as hell, don't want to 2068 02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:56,040 Speaker 1: have neutria hanging around there, especially rice. So you know, 2069 02:01:56,520 --> 02:02:01,320 Speaker 1: now what's happened in California because they've banned trapping and 2070 02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:04,200 Speaker 1: for down in in at least in the l A. 2071 02:02:05,000 --> 02:02:07,280 Speaker 1: But the reality now is how are you going to 2072 02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:12,240 Speaker 1: control the neutria? Well, it's gonna cost three million dollars. Yeah, 2073 02:02:12,320 --> 02:02:14,200 Speaker 1: Now you build them. What you do is you build 2074 02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:16,800 Speaker 1: a giant boat and then you can't you you know, 2075 02:02:17,040 --> 02:02:18,560 Speaker 1: you net them and then throw them on the boat. 2076 02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:20,520 Speaker 1: That's that's what's what you do. You don't kill them 2077 02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:24,000 Speaker 1: because that's because that's wrong. Yeah, you know. So it's 2078 02:02:24,080 --> 02:02:27,840 Speaker 1: like it's just well, what couldn't you say? I mean, 2079 02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:32,080 Speaker 1: I don't you know, that's just part of the food chain. Yeah, 2080 02:02:32,120 --> 02:02:33,880 Speaker 1: And it's a good it's a it's a good conversation. 2081 02:02:34,040 --> 02:02:37,400 Speaker 1: This whole thing marries up to the reason I do 2082 02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:38,880 Speaker 1: this show, and I think a lot of the reasons 2083 02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:40,880 Speaker 1: that you've you've said that you do what you do, 2084 02:02:41,000 --> 02:02:45,720 Speaker 1: and that's that's because these these really complicated topics need 2085 02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:47,640 Speaker 1: to be explored, and they need to be explored in 2086 02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:50,880 Speaker 1: a way that more people can can think about and 2087 02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:55,440 Speaker 1: talk about and understand. Um, Because we're up against it 2088 02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:58,080 Speaker 1: with with folks that don't believe what we believe, and 2089 02:02:58,080 --> 02:02:59,640 Speaker 1: they believe that, like I said, there is a there 2090 02:02:59,680 --> 02:03:01,120 Speaker 1: is a right and or wrong when it comes to 2091 02:03:01,200 --> 02:03:04,720 Speaker 1: killing animals. Um, and all these examples just say that's 2092 02:03:04,720 --> 02:03:06,920 Speaker 1: not true. It's just just isn't true. There's not one 2093 02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:09,320 Speaker 1: right or wrong with all of this, especially when it 2094 02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:13,560 Speaker 1: comes to us humans. Yeah, Um, I want to I 2095 02:03:13,560 --> 02:03:15,760 Speaker 1: want to let you go without covering a few things 2096 02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:17,960 Speaker 1: that you've done, because I just we've I think we 2097 02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:22,240 Speaker 1: may have touched on this, We've bounced around. I love it. Um, 2098 02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:26,120 Speaker 1: But you you worked with John Norris Jr. I'm not 2099 02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:28,880 Speaker 1: mistaken on War in the Woods, Combating the Marijuana cart 2100 02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:33,480 Speaker 1: tells America's public lands. Um. That's become a little famous 2101 02:03:33,640 --> 02:03:37,160 Speaker 1: in the mediator world because because um, John was on 2102 02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:39,320 Speaker 1: the Media podcast and then also in Joe Rogan. But 2103 02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:42,640 Speaker 1: talk about that like you're working with him, and and 2104 02:03:43,120 --> 02:03:45,720 Speaker 1: you know what strikes me about that briefly is this 2105 02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:48,440 Speaker 1: that if you want to teach someone about public lands 2106 02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:51,240 Speaker 1: that doesn't care about conservation, a nice way to get 2107 02:03:51,280 --> 02:03:53,480 Speaker 1: them to interested in what public lands are is by 2108 02:03:53,520 --> 02:03:56,440 Speaker 1: writing a book like this and getting them into a 2109 02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:02,600 Speaker 1: war on drugs. I had I and involved Jesus since 2110 02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, for years sometimes in working with law enforcement 2111 02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:13,600 Speaker 1: in various capacities, going back to the seventies, for God's sakes, 2112 02:04:13,880 --> 02:04:17,080 Speaker 1: and you know, as applying my psychologists to this stuff. 2113 02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:22,320 Speaker 1: And in two thousand and seven, two game wardens came 2114 02:04:22,400 --> 02:04:26,640 Speaker 1: up to my son and I and said, um, we'd 2115 02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:31,760 Speaker 1: like you to make a documentary about the shorties of 2116 02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:35,080 Speaker 1: game wardens in California at that at that point there 2117 02:04:35,080 --> 02:04:39,040 Speaker 1: were hundred and ninety two for thirty eight million people. So, 2118 02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, my son I said sure, okay, we'll do it. 2119 02:04:42,840 --> 02:04:45,920 Speaker 1: So we started and for two years we went riding 2120 02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:49,760 Speaker 1: along with game wardens all over the place. And you know, 2121 02:04:49,800 --> 02:04:53,160 Speaker 1: and my website look up snow Goose Productions and and 2122 02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:58,440 Speaker 1: you'll see, um the link to projects where you'll find 2123 02:04:58,600 --> 02:05:04,480 Speaker 1: endangered species. Uh, you know, the the documentary we did, 2124 02:05:04,520 --> 02:05:07,839 Speaker 1: which was an hour long documentary which led to wild Justice. 2125 02:05:08,360 --> 02:05:11,080 Speaker 1: But in the process, John came up to me one 2126 02:05:11,160 --> 02:05:13,960 Speaker 1: day and said, you've been at a lot of different 2127 02:05:14,240 --> 02:05:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, patrols. How would you like to go on 2128 02:05:17,400 --> 02:05:22,000 Speaker 1: one with me? Okay, So we drive down and and 2129 02:05:22,240 --> 02:05:25,920 Speaker 1: meet him down and just around Stanford, for God's sakes, 2130 02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:29,000 Speaker 1: and drive up there early in the morning and suddenly 2131 02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:34,360 Speaker 1: there are about a dozen people from all different aspects 2132 02:05:34,360 --> 02:05:38,640 Speaker 1: of law enforcement, from National Guard down to local police 2133 02:05:38,760 --> 02:05:41,800 Speaker 1: to the you know, two D e A and stuff 2134 02:05:41,840 --> 02:05:45,480 Speaker 1: like that, and a couple of game wardens. And so 2135 02:05:45,520 --> 02:05:48,560 Speaker 1: we drive up into the hills into a regional park 2136 02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:54,400 Speaker 1: above Stanford and it's only five ten miles. For Christ's sakes. 2137 02:05:54,440 --> 02:05:57,160 Speaker 1: You can see Stanford Stadium from up at there and 2138 02:05:57,160 --> 02:06:00,720 Speaker 1: the thing. But it's a nice regional park. Pull over 2139 02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:04,480 Speaker 1: and suddenly, you know, and all these guys get out 2140 02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:10,240 Speaker 1: and they're fully armed for combat, and um helicopter comes 2141 02:06:10,280 --> 02:06:15,320 Speaker 1: in the National Garden okay, and said, well, what are 2142 02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:20,600 Speaker 1: you doing. Well, we're going to going after marijuana grows, okay. 2143 02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:24,120 Speaker 1: But they had this line that hangs out from underneath 2144 02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:28,600 Speaker 1: and two game boardings, Norris another guy climb into this 2145 02:06:28,720 --> 02:06:32,840 Speaker 1: thing and it's and it hangs down like fift below 2146 02:06:32,880 --> 02:06:36,960 Speaker 1: the helicopter and so they fly off. I said, what 2147 02:06:36,960 --> 02:06:39,280 Speaker 1: what's you know? Said, look, this is how we get 2148 02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:41,840 Speaker 1: in there quickly. And I said, aren't you targets? Yeah, 2149 02:06:41,840 --> 02:06:45,320 Speaker 1: I said, but we pray a lot. So they dropped 2150 02:06:45,360 --> 02:06:50,280 Speaker 1: them down, you know, about a mile away. And then 2151 02:06:50,280 --> 02:06:52,800 Speaker 1: the helicopter comes back and brings in three or four 2152 02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:56,480 Speaker 1: more loads of the of them, and they finally said, okay, 2153 02:06:56,480 --> 02:06:59,000 Speaker 1: it's clear. You and your son get in with your cameras. 2154 02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:02,240 Speaker 1: So we fly over a helicopter on me end up 2155 02:07:02,320 --> 02:07:05,000 Speaker 1: hovering over this place, and it said, Jesus yah, just 2156 02:07:05,160 --> 02:07:08,680 Speaker 1: I don't see anything down there. Pilot says, just watch. 2157 02:07:09,920 --> 02:07:14,240 Speaker 1: He starts to get lower and lower, and suddenly, when 2158 02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the wash comes down, the manzanita trees separate and underneath 2159 02:07:20,240 --> 02:07:25,320 Speaker 1: is this bright green carpet and it's all over the place, 2160 02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, and it's like, he says, fat is marijuana. 2161 02:07:29,440 --> 02:07:33,080 Speaker 1: And what there was was a grow there. Well, so 2162 02:07:33,240 --> 02:07:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, when we filmed the whole thing, and you know, 2163 02:07:35,480 --> 02:07:38,560 Speaker 1: and and then so he takes you know, I don't 2164 02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:42,120 Speaker 1: know how many pounds, several hundred pounds of marijuana that's 2165 02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:44,600 Speaker 1: attached now to the rope and we start to go back. 2166 02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:46,880 Speaker 1: He said, I want to just go across the road here, 2167 02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,520 Speaker 1: and he goes over there. He says, there's another one. 2168 02:07:51,600 --> 02:07:56,160 Speaker 1: So we go back, ultimately have lunch, and they go 2169 02:07:56,240 --> 02:07:59,360 Speaker 1: back into this second one. Okay, And so again they 2170 02:07:59,400 --> 02:08:02,000 Speaker 1: fly John on the others in you know, by helicopter, 2171 02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:04,440 Speaker 1: and they say, okay, that's Claire. You and your son 2172 02:08:04,560 --> 02:08:09,200 Speaker 1: drive over, park your car next to the road, and said, well, okay, 2173 02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:12,120 Speaker 1: and Jesus we only it was you know, there's John. 2174 02:08:12,120 --> 02:08:14,400 Speaker 1: He says, well, look, it's only a hundred yards in 2175 02:08:14,480 --> 02:08:18,360 Speaker 1: here to this one. And we start to walk in, 2176 02:08:18,440 --> 02:08:19,960 Speaker 1: and he says, oh, by the way, you have to 2177 02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:25,240 Speaker 1: walk in every step exactly that I take because they 2178 02:08:25,320 --> 02:08:30,000 Speaker 1: put in trip wires, bungee pits and and other things 2179 02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:33,720 Speaker 1: where you could fall and break your neck or get shot. Okay, 2180 02:08:33,720 --> 02:08:35,920 Speaker 1: and let me take it if it comes, so we 2181 02:08:36,080 --> 02:08:41,000 Speaker 1: follow it in. Are you retreading this experience? Are probably 2182 02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:44,720 Speaker 1: should have stay back, you know, only about like I couldn't. 2183 02:08:44,840 --> 02:08:46,600 Speaker 1: It couldn't have been more than fifty five or sixty 2184 02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:49,800 Speaker 1: yards here. And we start to come into this place 2185 02:08:50,240 --> 02:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and there's chicken wire up, rat poison all over the place, 2186 02:08:55,360 --> 02:08:59,160 Speaker 1: marijuana plants about three or four feet high, and I 2187 02:08:59,480 --> 02:09:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, and and they're all over and there's a 2188 02:09:02,040 --> 02:09:05,880 Speaker 1: camp in there, and there's ammunition, you know, from guns. 2189 02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:08,440 Speaker 1: These guys were all armed, but when the helicopters came, 2190 02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:12,360 Speaker 1: they fled, thank god, And so you know, I said, well, 2191 02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:15,880 Speaker 1: Jesus John, I mean, these plants looked pretty good, but 2192 02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:18,560 Speaker 1: how in the world do they wanted? Him said, huh, 2193 02:09:18,800 --> 02:09:22,440 Speaker 1: watch this. So we went over and he found about 2194 02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:27,520 Speaker 1: eight or eight or nine fifty gallon barrels, metal barrels, 2195 02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:32,400 Speaker 1: and those barrels all had water. And where the world 2196 02:09:32,400 --> 02:09:36,360 Speaker 1: they get that? There's no stream here? Watch follow walking 2197 02:09:36,400 --> 02:09:39,720 Speaker 1: in on this little trail. They had been sneaking into 2198 02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:43,920 Speaker 1: the houses of Silicon Valley millionaires at night and stealing 2199 02:09:44,320 --> 02:09:50,840 Speaker 1: their lawn water and bringing it back, you know. And 2200 02:09:50,960 --> 02:09:53,200 Speaker 1: so it's like here and we were looking at a 2201 02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:56,720 Speaker 1: place where all these guys were armed, and you know, 2202 02:09:56,840 --> 02:09:59,920 Speaker 1: and so you know, we started north started to introduce 2203 02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:03,200 Speaker 1: me to this stuff, and just as scary as hell. 2204 02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:08,960 Speaker 1: I can remember going into one up in the Mendocino 2205 02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:13,879 Speaker 1: County area. And we were going in actually on a vehicle, 2206 02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:18,160 Speaker 1: a one of those not a jeep, but you know, 2207 02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:21,000 Speaker 1: uh that you would you would ride to go back 2208 02:10:21,040 --> 02:10:24,040 Speaker 1: in as an open vehicle, and all of a sudden, 2209 02:10:24,160 --> 02:10:26,880 Speaker 1: backfires when the thing came, I thought, ship, we're gonna 2210 02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:31,760 Speaker 1: get shot. No, But we went in there to this 2211 02:10:31,760 --> 02:10:36,200 Speaker 1: this grow and oh there were twenty thousand plants that 2212 02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:38,960 Speaker 1: in the one down in in uh in palle Aldo 2213 02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:41,000 Speaker 1: and up here, and there were you know, I don't 2214 02:10:41,000 --> 02:10:43,440 Speaker 1: know how many thousands that there were, but there were 2215 02:10:43,440 --> 02:10:48,520 Speaker 1: thirty six sleeping bags in this place. Now, looking how 2216 02:10:48,520 --> 02:10:51,440 Speaker 1: many of these gatherings, you know, are out in the wood. 2217 02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:58,880 Speaker 1: They're all armed and um scarcely hell out of you? Yeah? 2218 02:10:59,040 --> 02:11:02,040 Speaker 1: When yeah? When? So when when? John and I you know, 2219 02:11:02,160 --> 02:11:05,040 Speaker 1: and John says, well, look, I've been keeping my stories, 2220 02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:07,840 Speaker 1: and so I edited them for him and wrote, you know, 2221 02:11:08,320 --> 02:11:12,360 Speaker 1: an afterword for him and stuff like that. And the 2222 02:11:12,400 --> 02:11:16,480 Speaker 1: book came out and it uh was number one in 2223 02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:22,240 Speaker 1: crime on on Amazon Books for I don't know three 2224 02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:26,760 Speaker 1: or four months. And it first was picked up by 2225 02:11:27,120 --> 02:11:31,440 Speaker 1: um one of the producers of and It's All about 2226 02:11:31,880 --> 02:11:37,040 Speaker 1: Raids on These on these Growths, and one of the 2227 02:11:37,080 --> 02:11:41,200 Speaker 1: producers of Friday Night Lights optioned the book first and 2228 02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:43,280 Speaker 1: wanted to make a feature film and got it as 2229 02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:46,840 Speaker 1: far as Warner Brothers, and then Warners said, now we 2230 02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:50,000 Speaker 1: don't want them feature film, we want a TV series, 2231 02:11:50,040 --> 02:11:52,880 Speaker 1: and he didn't want to do it, so then he 2232 02:11:52,960 --> 02:11:55,800 Speaker 1: dropped the option. And then Noble Media Group picked it 2233 02:11:55,920 --> 02:12:00,840 Speaker 1: up and they have hired the writer of the movie 2234 02:12:00,960 --> 02:12:05,360 Speaker 1: film a Logan, and they've written a bible and a 2235 02:12:06,160 --> 02:12:09,879 Speaker 1: pilot script and so with with luck, they'll start shooting 2236 02:12:09,920 --> 02:12:14,840 Speaker 1: this uh this year. It's an amazing story. Uh, absolutely amazing. 2237 02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:17,200 Speaker 1: Like I said, I mean, there's there's so many threads 2238 02:12:17,360 --> 02:12:19,200 Speaker 1: to that story. So if you haven't read that book 2239 02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:22,040 Speaker 1: or listen to the podcast with John, go and do that, 2240 02:12:22,160 --> 02:12:24,680 Speaker 1: because it's the book I think is probably the best, 2241 02:12:24,680 --> 02:12:27,480 Speaker 1: the best accounting of it. Well, of all the things 2242 02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:29,680 Speaker 1: that you've you've done here, I mean I was I 2243 02:12:29,720 --> 02:12:31,680 Speaker 1: was going to try to list off before we end 2244 02:12:31,720 --> 02:12:35,080 Speaker 1: all the things you can check out from from James. 2245 02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:38,320 Speaker 1: You got War in the Woods, John Norris, you have 2246 02:12:38,640 --> 02:12:42,160 Speaker 1: In Defense of Hunting, The Sacred Art of Hunting. You 2247 02:12:42,200 --> 02:12:45,920 Speaker 1: have that documentary um Out of Mongolia. Man, there's there's 2248 02:12:45,920 --> 02:12:48,840 Speaker 1: a million things you've worked on. Um. I can only 2249 02:12:48,840 --> 02:12:52,360 Speaker 1: hope to have a career that that has a singular 2250 02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:56,120 Speaker 1: event is as big as any of these things I 2251 02:12:56,160 --> 02:13:00,480 Speaker 1: just listed. So um Man, it was a real pleasure 2252 02:13:00,480 --> 02:13:02,720 Speaker 1: to talk to you and learn about your life and times. 2253 02:13:02,720 --> 02:13:04,440 Speaker 1: And I imagine we could probably talk for another hour 2254 02:13:04,480 --> 02:13:07,680 Speaker 1: and a half and we wouldn't have any trouble topics 2255 02:13:07,720 --> 02:13:10,560 Speaker 1: to come up with. Uh yeah, well look, I want 2256 02:13:10,600 --> 02:13:15,280 Speaker 1: to just congratulate you guys. You and Stephen, I'm you know, 2257 02:13:15,320 --> 02:13:18,040 Speaker 1: on the Meat Eater is just taking it right out 2258 02:13:18,080 --> 02:13:24,160 Speaker 1: there to mainstream media and God bless you. Thanks. We're 2259 02:13:24,200 --> 02:13:26,320 Speaker 1: getting up and doing it every day. Man. We're committed 2260 02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:29,320 Speaker 1: to just having good conversations just like this one that 2261 02:13:29,560 --> 02:13:31,120 Speaker 1: who knows who the hell knows where they're going to go. 2262 02:13:31,200 --> 02:13:33,600 Speaker 1: But there's so much out there to learn and so 2263 02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:35,760 Speaker 1: much out there for us to kind of discover with 2264 02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:38,440 Speaker 1: everybody listening, especially in the form of podcast. That's why 2265 02:13:38,480 --> 02:13:40,680 Speaker 1: I love it. So thanks for having you on, and 2266 02:13:40,800 --> 02:13:42,720 Speaker 1: I guarantee you we're gonna be calling you and bothering 2267 02:13:42,720 --> 02:13:45,920 Speaker 1: you to come back on sometime real soon. All right, 2268 02:13:46,400 --> 02:13:59,320 Speaker 1: Thanks James. Thanks, that's it. That's all. That's ninety eight 2269 02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:02,120 Speaker 1: in the books. Were are slowly and surely coming up 2270 02:14:02,120 --> 02:14:05,600 Speaker 1: on episode one. Me and Philip are really we've been 2271 02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:08,800 Speaker 1: playing it hard for it. We've been in some secrets 2272 02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:12,560 Speaker 1: in store for you. No, you don't know. This is 2273 02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:15,360 Speaker 1: a great show. Thanks to Dr Swan for coming on. 2274 02:14:15,480 --> 02:14:18,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for Miles and nolte Is always are probably our 2275 02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,160 Speaker 1: most well spoken in articulate member of the media crew, 2276 02:14:21,240 --> 02:14:23,320 Speaker 1: big fan of Miles than all that he does. So 2277 02:14:23,440 --> 02:14:25,720 Speaker 1: anything mediator fishing is the branch out of that man. 2278 02:14:25,960 --> 02:14:29,120 Speaker 1: And we got our community manager Joe Fernado doing a 2279 02:14:29,160 --> 02:14:31,480 Speaker 1: lot of research for us, checking in on some of 2280 02:14:31,560 --> 02:14:33,880 Speaker 1: these interesting topics. So thanks to those, all three of 2281 02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:36,600 Speaker 1: those folks for coming on board. I know this show 2282 02:14:36,680 --> 02:14:39,520 Speaker 1: kind of went in a bunch of different places, some intended, 2283 02:14:39,600 --> 02:14:43,040 Speaker 1: some not, but that's natured podcast, so we enjoy it. 2284 02:14:43,160 --> 02:14:45,720 Speaker 1: Make sure you go to first Light to Colm, first 2285 02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:49,040 Speaker 1: Light dot com first to come. There's like dot com 2286 02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:52,520 Speaker 1: could have first Light dot Com and then go down 2287 02:14:52,600 --> 02:14:55,400 Speaker 1: look for win a tar Hunt, click on it and 2288 02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:57,520 Speaker 1: enter and enter. There's a picture of a guy that's 2289 02:14:57,520 --> 02:15:00,160 Speaker 1: not me on there. That's fine, Phil pointing out. Think 2290 02:15:00,160 --> 02:15:01,640 Speaker 1: he looks better than he looks, like a better version 2291 02:15:01,640 --> 02:15:04,400 Speaker 1: of you. That's something you should aspire to. I'd like 2292 02:15:04,440 --> 02:15:07,280 Speaker 1: to look that good. Like look that good. We'll find 2293 02:15:07,280 --> 02:15:09,040 Speaker 1: out who that is. We'll call him. I have him 2294 02:15:09,040 --> 02:15:12,760 Speaker 1: on the show. So first, like dot Com, you can 2295 02:15:12,760 --> 02:15:14,040 Speaker 1: win to hunt with me in New Zealand. I think 2296 02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:16,680 Speaker 1: that's pretty cool, So you should do it now. Before 2297 02:15:16,680 --> 02:15:18,760 Speaker 1: we go, we'll tell you about what you're gonna see 2298 02:15:18,800 --> 02:15:20,360 Speaker 1: in the next show. You're not gonna see it, you're 2299 02:15:20,360 --> 02:15:22,280 Speaker 1: gonna hear it. So we will probably film some of 2300 02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:25,000 Speaker 1: it so you may see it. But but what we're 2301 02:15:25,000 --> 02:15:28,160 Speaker 1: gonna do, We're gonna do a little Pepsi challenge. Uh. 2302 02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:31,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna set down with the likes of Mr Steven Ronnella, 2303 02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:34,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of people from the office Kylie Archer. We're 2304 02:15:34,040 --> 02:15:36,160 Speaker 1: gonna get Korean. Our producer in here, Phil of course, 2305 02:15:36,280 --> 02:15:39,480 Speaker 1: is gonna take part. We just roped in one of 2306 02:15:39,480 --> 02:15:42,440 Speaker 1: our fabulous Wild Foods contributors, Rick Matten. He's gonna come 2307 02:15:42,480 --> 02:15:44,200 Speaker 1: in and cook for us. Phil and I are gonna 2308 02:15:44,240 --> 02:15:46,600 Speaker 1: go to some fruit fru grocery store and we're gonna 2309 02:15:46,640 --> 02:15:50,520 Speaker 1: buy some plant based meats. We're gonna match those up 2310 02:15:50,600 --> 02:15:55,080 Speaker 1: was similar flavor profiled wild meats, and we're gonna blindfold 2311 02:15:55,080 --> 02:15:57,640 Speaker 1: people and we're gonna do a little taste test, taste 2312 02:15:57,680 --> 02:16:00,200 Speaker 1: and feel, lets them feel it as well, and they're 2313 02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:02,960 Speaker 1: gonna have to pick out what's wild game and what ain't. 2314 02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:04,600 Speaker 1: I'll see if they can do it, and if they 2315 02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:06,800 Speaker 1: can't do it, it'll be hilarious. And if they can 2316 02:16:06,840 --> 02:16:09,920 Speaker 1: do it, you may never hear it, so just trash it. 2317 02:16:11,000 --> 02:16:12,720 Speaker 1: So we're gonna give it a shot. And that's next 2318 02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:15,920 Speaker 1: week when the Honey Collective. We're also joined next week 2319 02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:19,320 Speaker 1: by Rachel carry from the UK. We get a lot 2320 02:16:19,360 --> 02:16:21,840 Speaker 1: of emails from the listeners out there in the United Kingdom, 2321 02:16:22,000 --> 02:16:24,800 Speaker 1: a lot of them. It seems like there there's relatively 2322 02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:26,760 Speaker 1: few of you that are listening to here, but you're 2323 02:16:26,800 --> 02:16:29,200 Speaker 1: all very vocal about the situation you're in. So I figured, 2324 02:16:29,400 --> 02:16:31,560 Speaker 1: while we have read some of your emails in past episodes, 2325 02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:33,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of travel over there to take 2326 02:16:33,840 --> 02:16:37,160 Speaker 1: the temperature. What's happening over in the UK with with hunting, 2327 02:16:37,440 --> 02:16:39,400 Speaker 1: the meeting, and culture, veganism, all the things we talked 2328 02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:42,640 Speaker 1: about on this show. Seems to be pretty intense over there. 2329 02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:45,680 Speaker 1: So we're gonna get Rachel Carrey, who is a hunter, 2330 02:16:46,640 --> 02:16:50,440 Speaker 1: an Instagram personality and has written a book about wild 2331 02:16:50,480 --> 02:16:52,880 Speaker 1: game um and so we're gonna have her on. We're 2332 02:16:53,000 --> 02:16:56,119 Speaker 1: do that. We're gonna do a little Pepsi challenge. We'll 2333 02:16:56,120 --> 02:16:57,480 Speaker 1: come up with a good name for it soon. Phil 2334 02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:01,600 Speaker 1: will will work shop the Meet Mega Show. I don't think, 2335 02:17:01,600 --> 02:17:06,080 Speaker 1: I think, I don't think so, all right, Bye. The 2336 02:17:06,160 --> 02:17:08,440 Speaker 1: Hunting Collective with Ben O'Brien is a part of the 2337 02:17:08,480 --> 02:17:11,680 Speaker 1: meat Eater podcast network. It is produced by Cringe Schneider 2338 02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:15,920 Speaker 1: and engineered by Phil Taylor. You can find it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, 2339 02:17:16,120 --> 02:17:19,360 Speaker 1: the meat eater dot com, or anywhere podcasts are downloadable. 2340 02:17:19,400 --> 02:17:26,119 Speaker 1: Wherever you listen, leave a five star review and subscribe.