1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:12,239
Speaker 1: Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. Hey,

2
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: they're in Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm your host, John

3
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: than Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iHeart Radio. And

4
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,440
Speaker 1: how the tech are you? You know? I read an

5
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,200
Speaker 1: interesting article from the Imperial College in London about how

6
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,159
Speaker 1: researchers at that college had developed an alternative catalyst for

7
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: technologies like fuel cells, potentially opening the door to making

8
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,159
Speaker 1: that tech much more affordable, and I thought it might

9
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,159
Speaker 1: be good to do a tech stuff tidbits about fuel cells,

10
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,200
Speaker 1: specifically hydrogen fuel cells, and to talk about that specific

11
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: development with catalysts as well. So first, what the heck

12
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,520
Speaker 1: is a fuel cell? Well, in some ways it's very

13
00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 1: similar to a battery. Batteries and fuel cells both rely

14
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 1: upon chemical reactions that create an output of electricity. So

15
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,759
Speaker 1: with batteries, you've got yourself a closed system, right. All

16
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 1: the chemicals are contained within the battery, and what's in

17
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,679
Speaker 1: the battery stays in the battery unless you get a

18
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,840
Speaker 1: battery leak, in which case you really need to take

19
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,680
Speaker 1: care of that because battery acid can be nasty stuff.

20
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, the chemical reactions inside the battery will eventually

21
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 1: slow down and ultimately stop as there will not be

22
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,600
Speaker 1: enough reactive elements remaining in the battery for the reaction

23
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: to continue in the battery goes dead. Rechargeable batteries can

24
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,560
Speaker 1: reverse those reactions, and recharging is really just the opposite

25
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 1: of discharging, So instead of having electric current flowing out

26
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: of the battery, you make electric current flow into the battery,

27
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 1: and this reverses those chemical reactions, so you end up

28
00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,800
Speaker 1: with the original reactive elements inside the battery. Eventually, even

29
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 1: rechargeable batteries go dead because you ever really reverse all

30
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 1: of the chemical reactions, some stuff ends up becoming alert,

31
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,239
Speaker 1: and over time, more and more of those chemicals become inert,

32
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,239
Speaker 1: until your battery just isn't putting up very much juice

33
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,280
Speaker 1: and ultimately will be useless. But what about fuel cells, Well,

34
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,919
Speaker 1: a fuel cell is different from a battery because you

35
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: refuel a fuel cell, you've got your reactive elements that

36
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 1: are inside the fuel cell and the reactions that they

37
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 1: go through release electricity. But in the process the fuel

38
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: is spent, it is converted into something else, and once

39
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 1: that happens, you have to add more fuel to the

40
00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 1: fuel cell and the process can continue. But let's get

41
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: a little more detailed. So, the type of fuel cells

42
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: that we frequently talk about when we discuss stuff like

43
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,360
Speaker 1: fuel cell powered vehicles, for example, are a type called

44
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,679
Speaker 1: polymer electrolyte membrane fuel cells. Now, this is just one

45
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: of many different kinds of fuel cells. Uh, there are

46
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,080
Speaker 1: a lot of different ones that are good for specific

47
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 1: types of applications. However, we're gonna focus on this because

48
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 1: it's the type that the average person might encounter should

49
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: fuel cell vehicles become more of a thing in the future.

50
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,359
Speaker 1: And to be clear, they're a thing right now. There

51
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: are fuel cell vehicles out there, some of you might

52
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 1: even drive one, I don't know, but they're not common.

53
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,639
Speaker 1: So with these fuel cells, you have several components. You've

54
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 1: got a polymer electrolyte membrane. That's what gives this type

55
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: of fuel cell its name. And let's break down what

56
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 1: that means. All right, So membrane, I think we pretty

57
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 1: much all have a handle on that, right, It's a

58
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 1: thin boundary between two things. And an electrolyte is a

59
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: material that contains ions. Ions are charged atoms, So you're

60
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 1: talking about atoms that either have more protons than they

61
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 1: have electrons, so they would be positively charged. Because protons

62
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 1: carry a positive charge, electrons carry and negative. If you

63
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 1: have the same number, then the opposite charges neutralize each other.

64
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: It's a neutrally charged atom. So an ion has to

65
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: have either more protons than electrons, or more electrons than

66
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,680
Speaker 1: it has protons. In that case, you would have a

67
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:20,520
Speaker 1: negatively charged ion. UM. A polymer is a long chain molecule.

68
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 1: Plastics are a type of polymer um, and there are

69
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 1: lots of naturally occurring polymers, including some naturally occurring plastics,

70
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,839
Speaker 1: though we don't really think of natural plastics when we

71
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,480
Speaker 1: use the word plastic. Now. I mentioned that the membrane

72
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,039
Speaker 1: acts as a boundary, Well what is it a boundary for?

73
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: It acts as a barrier between the two sides of

74
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 1: the fuel cell. You can think of it as like

75
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: a gateway, if you will. So, on one side, which

76
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: is the cathode side of the fuel cell, you have oxygen.

77
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: On the other side, the anode side of the fuel cell,

78
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 1: you have of hydrogen. Hydrogen happens to be the most

79
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 1: plentiful element in our universe. However, it's also highly reactive.

80
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 1: It bonds with other elements readily, so readily. In fact,

81
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 1: that pretty much we only find hydrogen informs where it

82
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 1: has bonded with something else. So when hydrogen bonds with oxygen,

83
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,960
Speaker 1: we get water H two O, you know, two hydrogen

84
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 1: atoms and an oxygen atom, and then things get all

85
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,920
Speaker 1: splichy splashy. So in a fuel cell, the hydrogen quote

86
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 1: unquote wants to bond with the oxygen and form water.

87
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 1: But you've got this pesky membrane that acts kind of

88
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,600
Speaker 1: like a bouncer in a club, and this bouncer doesn't

89
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,919
Speaker 1: want any neutral glum hydrogen atoms coming in. You know,

90
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,479
Speaker 1: a hydrogen atom. A standard hydrogen atom consists of a

91
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: single proton and a single electron. Well, that's positive neck

92
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 1: of charge cancels each other out. You've gotta neutrally charged atom.

93
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 1: The membranes like, sorry, we only want positive folks in here,

94
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: so you can't come in. And the bouncer definitely doesn't

95
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 1: want any negative nancies coming in, so no negativity. So

96
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: the only way it will let a hydrogen atom pass

97
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: through the membrane is if the hydrogen atom chucks it's

98
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,839
Speaker 1: one electron and becomes a hydrogen ion, also known as

99
00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 1: a proton. Because again, the hydrogen atom is it consists

100
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,479
Speaker 1: of a single proton and a single electron. So if

101
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 1: a hydrogen atom gets rid of its electron, it is

102
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 1: a hydrogen ion. It's also a proton. Now, once it

103
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,600
Speaker 1: is free of its electron, the hydrogen atom can just

104
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,560
Speaker 1: waltz right on by the bouncer and pass over to

105
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 1: the oxygen side. We we will just call that club

106
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,719
Speaker 1: oxygen on the other side of the membrane. But here's

107
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: the thing. Chucking an electron isn't so simple, right, Like,

108
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 1: typically we would have to pour energy into the system

109
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,840
Speaker 1: to start stripping electrons away, because we would excite an

110
00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,880
Speaker 1: electron so that it would move further out from the

111
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: nucleus of the atom until you could make it go

112
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 1: do something. So, the hydrogen atom cannot just shed an

113
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: electron all by itself. It needs a catalyst. Now, if

114
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: you remember from your chemistry, a catalyst is something that

115
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 1: facilitates a chemical reaction. The catalyst itself isn't getting like,

116
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: it's not part of the reaction in the sense of

117
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 1: it is undergoing a change. It can increase the rate

118
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any significant or

119
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 1: permanent change, and We'll touch on the catalyst issue in

120
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 1: a moment, because that's the key of the research I

121
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 1: was talking about the beginning of the episode. So the hydrogen,

122
00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 1: with the help of this catalyst, sheds an electron and

123
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 1: becomes a proton, a positively charged particle, and then it

124
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: can pass through the membrane. Now, electrons have a negative charge,

125
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,720
Speaker 1: and negatively charged particles repel other negatively charged particles. We

126
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 1: know this right, Like charge repels like opposite charges attract,

127
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: So that means the electrons are attracted to the positively

128
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,600
Speaker 1: charged particles that are on the other side of the membrane.

129
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 1: So the electrons quote unquote want to get through the

130
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 1: membrane and rejoin the positively charged hydrogen at ions aka

131
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: the protons on the other side. But that pesky bouncer

132
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,520
Speaker 1: won't let the electrons through. It will not let that happen.

133
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: So the electrons are not on the guest list. They

134
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 1: aren't allowed inside. But if you were to provide a

135
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: pathway like a circuit for the electrons to pass through

136
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 1: so that they could ultimately rejoin the positively charged ions

137
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,360
Speaker 1: that are on the other side, like, they may have

138
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 1: to go a much further distance and they might have

139
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,520
Speaker 1: to do some work. Well, they're still gonna jump at

140
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 1: the chance. So this is how you make electrons go

141
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 1: and power something. You have electricity right the flow of electrons,

142
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 1: and then ultimately they can make their way over to

143
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,080
Speaker 1: club oxygen. They're just going through like a side door

144
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,760
Speaker 1: as opposed to the front door. And this is how

145
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,880
Speaker 1: fuel cells supply electricity, although we you know, don't actually

146
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,240
Speaker 1: use the analogy of a bouncer in a club. So

147
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 1: the electrons that have been shed by hydrogen will flow

148
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 1: into a circuit and ultimately join up with the oxygen

149
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 1: atoms and the hydrogen ions all over in club oxygen.

150
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: Once the electrons get there, well then they can zip

151
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,199
Speaker 1: on over to those hydrogen ions, and you have hydrogen

152
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,439
Speaker 1: atoms mixing with oxygen atoms, so you get water molecules.

153
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,160
Speaker 1: This means that in one of these fuel cells, your

154
00:09:54,240 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 1: fuel consists of hydrogen and oxygen, your output is electricity,

155
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,320
Speaker 1: and your waste is water vapor. And that's one of

156
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 1: the big reasons fuel cells come up in discussions of

157
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,599
Speaker 1: green energy because they do not produce carbon dioxide or

158
00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 1: carbon monoxide emissions, at least not if you're using pure

159
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,840
Speaker 1: hydrogen as fuel. More on that in a bit, so

160
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 1: they just produce electricity and water. Like a car that's

161
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,040
Speaker 1: powered by a fuel cell that's using pure oxygen and

162
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,680
Speaker 1: pure hydrogen wouldn't give off any emissions other than water vapor.

163
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: All right, When we come back, I'll get into a

164
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,439
Speaker 1: little more detail about some of the challenges of fuel

165
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,480
Speaker 1: cells and explain why they aren't everywhere right now. But

166
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:52,439
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Okay, so fuel cells work.

167
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 1: There are fuel cell vehicles out there today, though there

168
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 1: are not a lot of them. So why aren't fuel

169
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 1: cells more popular? If all you need is the most

170
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,839
Speaker 1: common element that's in the universe on one side, and

171
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 1: oxygen in the other, and if you can just essentially

172
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 1: scoop up oxygen from our atmosphere, why aren't we all

173
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,320
Speaker 1: using fuel cell vehicles. There are a few big reasons,

174
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: and one is that fuel cells have an ideal operating temperature.

175
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,760
Speaker 1: Your average polymer electro light membrane fuel cell best operates

176
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,640
Speaker 1: it around eighty degrees celsius or a hundred seventy six

177
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit, which is pretty toasty, and it means that

178
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,440
Speaker 1: in really cold regions it could take a while to

179
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,960
Speaker 1: warm up the fuel cell to a temperature that's high

180
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 1: enough to generate enough electricity to do whatever it is

181
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,959
Speaker 1: you want to do. You might be familiar like batteries

182
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 1: don't operate as quickly in very cold temperatures, meaning you

183
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 1: get less electricity out of a battery. You get, uh,

184
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,240
Speaker 1: electricity that may not be enough for you to do

185
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: whatever it is you need to do. If you've ever

186
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,120
Speaker 1: picked up a flashlight that was sitting in a freezing

187
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: room and turn it on, you I be like wow

188
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,719
Speaker 1: that the light is really weak from this, and then

189
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 1: over time, as the flash light warms up, the light

190
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 1: gets stronger. The same sort of thing can happen with

191
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,080
Speaker 1: fuel cells. Like you, you could have a slower chemical

192
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 1: reaction at lower temperatures, and if it's slow enough, it

193
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,680
Speaker 1: might not be enough to do what you need it

194
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 1: to do, like power and electric motor for example. Now,

195
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,960
Speaker 1: for another reason why fuel cells aren't everywhere, Uh, they

196
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 1: deteriorate over time, so you do have to replace them occasionally.

197
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,720
Speaker 1: And then we get to what's a really big drawback.

198
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 1: They are expensive, and they are expensive because of the catalyst.

199
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 1: See the typical catalyst used in these types of fuel

200
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 1: cells is made of platinum. That's a very rare, very

201
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 1: expensive metal. And even though you only need a relatively

202
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:56,079
Speaker 1: small amount of platinum per fuel cell, that requirement really

203
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: drives up the price significantly. In fact, according to the

204
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,839
Speaker 1: researchers that Imperial College London, about six of a fuel

205
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: cells cost comes from the platinum that's used for the catalyst.

206
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: That's why the work done by those researchers could be transformative.

207
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 1: The researchers were able to create a catalyst using iron

208
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,439
Speaker 1: instead of platinum. Now, iron isn't scarce at all. The

209
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 1: Earth is lousy with the stuff. Iron is plentiful, and

210
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,320
Speaker 1: if we could use iron as a catalyst material instead

211
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,680
Speaker 1: of platinum, that would bring the price of fuel cells

212
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 1: way down. And let's talk a little bit about what

213
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 1: those researchers did. They took iron atoms and they embedded

214
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,560
Speaker 1: singular iron atoms within a matrix of carbon, so they had,

215
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, multiple iron atoms in the matrix total, but

216
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 1: they would in each atom was kind of its own

217
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 1: little individual part in that section of the matrix. This

218
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 1: is where we can talk about something that's really interesting

219
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: and it's also a little counterintuitive because we're familiar with

220
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,719
Speaker 1: the way how iron works on moss. Meaning if you've

221
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 1: got a whole bunch of iron atoms together forming say

222
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 1: a chunk of iron, we know how iron will behave, right.

223
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 1: It's on this classic system. However, when you get down

224
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 1: to an individual iron atom, you're now diving down to

225
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 1: the nanoscale. Actually you're diving down to the atomic scale,

226
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,520
Speaker 1: which is even smaller than the nano scale. Once you

227
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: start hitting the nanoscale, stuff starts to behave in an

228
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 1: entirely different way than the way we are used to

229
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 1: it on the macro scale, and it can in fact

230
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,800
Speaker 1: be really bizarre um on the nano scale, even though

231
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 1: you're talking about unimaginable tiny particles, those particles have way

232
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 1: more surface area per unit of mass than what you

233
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 1: would find at the macro level, and that means that

234
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: more of the material can come into contact with other

235
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 1: stuff by unit of mass, and the materials behaviors can change.

236
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 1: One of those behaviors is that material reels can become

237
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 1: better catalysts at the nano scale or the atomic scale.

238
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: The researchers said that they're iron catalyst, and a carbon

239
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 1: matrix was able to perform as a good substitute for platinum,

240
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 1: and that it has performance that is quote unquote approaching platinum.

241
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: So it sounds as if the iron catalysts perhaps isn't

242
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: quite as effective as platinum, but the tradeoff in price

243
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: could more than make up for the decline in performance.

244
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: But performance is just one part of the issue. Another

245
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 1: one is durability. That's something that the researchers are working

246
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: on now, trying to make the iron solution as durable

247
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: as platinum catalysts. Otherwise you would have to replace the

248
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: catalyst more frequently, which would eat into the cost savings

249
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,720
Speaker 1: of iron. Right if you have to replace it more

250
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 1: frequently than you would with a platinum catalyst, then the

251
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,880
Speaker 1: benefits start to that that get that that span of

252
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 1: benefits begins to narrow, I guess, is what I'm trying

253
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 1: to say. Plus, it becomes a hassle if you have

254
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: to frequently get your fuel cells serviced or replaced. Now,

255
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 1: if the team can make the iron catalysts stability match

256
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: that of platinum, the breakthrough could lead to a revolution

257
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: and fuel cell technology. However, there is still one more

258
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 1: thing we have to talk about, and that's hydrogen itself. So,

259
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, it's the most plentiful stuff in the universe,

260
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 1: but it also tends to bond with other elements really easily,

261
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 1: and that's the tricky bit. To get at hydrogen, we

262
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 1: typically have to exert energy to do it. We can't

263
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 1: just go and collect hydrogen pure hydrogen on its own.

264
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: It's almost always bonded to something else, So we have

265
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 1: to find a way to break those chemical bonds that

266
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 1: hold hydrogen to whatever it happens to be bonded with. Well,

267
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 1: when you start to look at fuel cells from an

268
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 1: energy ecosystem point of view, you have to start asking

269
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: tough questions like do you have to spend more energy

270
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 1: to get the hydrogen then you are getting out of

271
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 1: using it in a fuel cell? And how are you

272
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 1: getting at the hydrogen? Is it as efficient as it

273
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 1: can be? Is it environmentally friendly because some of the

274
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 1: ways we get hydrogen is definitely not environmentally friendly. In fact,

275
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,959
Speaker 1: the primary way we get hydrogen is we collected as

276
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: a byproduct from natural gas processing and and natural gas

277
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 1: is a fossil fuel. So if we assume that that's

278
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 1: how we're gonna keep getting hydrogen, it means we're presuming

279
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,600
Speaker 1: that we're going to continue to depend on fossil fuels,

280
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: and that is an issue, right. It means that we're

281
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: still doing something that itself is environmentally harmful. We can

282
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,440
Speaker 1: use hydrogen without breaking those bonds in some forms of

283
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,960
Speaker 1: hydrocarbon gases, but that would mean that we would actually

284
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,439
Speaker 1: have emissions beyond just water vapor. It might include carbon

285
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 1: monoxide for example. So you know, you could have fuel

286
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,720
Speaker 1: cells that use hydrogen that's in a mixture of something else,

287
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 1: like a hydrocarbon gas, but you have down downsides to

288
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 1: that as well. There are other ways we can get

289
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,439
Speaker 1: hydrogen that don't involve fossil fuels. One way is just

290
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 1: to do what fuel cells do, but in reverse. So

291
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,479
Speaker 1: remember with fuel cells, we take hydrogen and oxygen and

292
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: using that membrane and a catalyst, we get electricity and

293
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: water vapor as byproducts of the chemical reaction. But then

294
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: if you were to take water and pass an electrical

295
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 1: current through the water, you would break the molecular bonds

296
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 1: between hydrogen and oxygen and you would get O two

297
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,919
Speaker 1: and H two gases. But again that means you have

298
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 1: to expend energy in order to release the hydrogen and oxygen.

299
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: If you're expending the same amount of energy as you

300
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: would be getting out of the fuel cells. You're not

301
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 1: really seeing a benefit here, really, you're just shifting where

302
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: the load is. One way to approach this is by

303
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 1: using renewable energy sources to create the electrical current you

304
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: need to break those molecular bonds in a process is

305
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 1: called electrolysis. Anyway, harvesting hydrogen presents its own big challenges. Yes,

306
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: the use of hydrogen and fuel cells is clean energy,

307
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 1: but getting at the hydrogen might not be so clean.

308
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: There's always a catch still. With the possibility of fuel

309
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 1: cells becoming more economically feasible, that could encourage more r

310
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 1: and d into how we can collect hydrogen in a

311
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 1: more environmentally conscious way. And who knows, maybe we'll get

312
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,600
Speaker 1: that hydrogen economy that folks were talking about nearly twenty

313
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 1: years ago. And that's it. Protect Stuff Tidbits. Hope you

314
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 1: enjoyed this. I'll talk to you again really soon. Text

315
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts

316
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,120
Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

317
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,439
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

318
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:00,240
Speaker 1: Two