WEBVTT - Unjust Systems of Power are Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:26.036 Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm your host, Jacob Weisberg. My 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:28.916 solvable is to get one million women and girls to 0:00:29.036 --> 0:00:32.316 learn how to cool. My solvable is breaking the wall 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:35.476 of depression. My solvable is to take energy to where 0:00:35.516 --> 0:00:38.716 communities are. I want to tackle this problem because I 0:00:38.756 --> 0:00:42.396 know it can be solved. We're excited to share with 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:45.676 you a new season of conversations with leaders and change 0:00:45.716 --> 0:00:49.596 makers about how to solve the world's biggest problems. This 0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:52.836 is an extraordinary moment. We're living through a global pandemic, 0:00:53.156 --> 0:00:56.676 and in the United States we're experiencing the most powerful 0:00:56.716 --> 0:01:01.396 protest movement of my lifetime against police brutality and racial injustice. 0:01:02.156 --> 0:01:05.356 It's a time of great possibility. Our society seems to 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:08.436 be open to the kinds of moral and social transformations 0:01:08.676 --> 0:01:11.756 that we're much harder to imagine before the virus and 0:01:11.876 --> 0:01:19.196 before the killing of George Floyd. For this our second season, 0:01:19.476 --> 0:01:22.236 I'll be joined again by my Pushkin co founder, Malcolm 0:01:22.316 --> 0:01:26.356 Gladwell and journalist and friend Dan Applebaum, a Pulitzer Prize 0:01:26.356 --> 0:01:30.276 winning historian and staff writer at the Atlantic. To start 0:01:30.316 --> 0:01:34.756 this season, we're focusing on two problems, racial injustice and 0:01:34.916 --> 0:01:38.196 the twenty twenty election. We can have an election that 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:43.796 is participatory with robust turnout in twenty twenty. Justice isn't blind. 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:46.476 We have to be far more critical and thoughtful and 0:01:46.596 --> 0:01:50.956 have that lens on. On today's episode, we hear from 0:01:50.996 --> 0:01:55.196 an international expert on non violent protest. Let's solve this 0:01:55.476 --> 0:01:58.356 one big issue, Let's have more racial equality, and then 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:01.396 we're going to look at our narcissism of small differences. Later, 0:02:02.316 --> 0:02:05.596 when the outcry went up over George Floyd's killing, peaceful 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:09.476 demonstrators took to the streets in Minneapolis, then another cities 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:13.396 across the country and across the globe, and a problem arose. 0:02:14.036 --> 0:02:17.996 It's a problem we've seen elsewhere, bad actors, outliers with 0:02:18.076 --> 0:02:23.436 destructive agendas, overtaking the news coverage by engaging in retaliatory violence. 0:02:24.116 --> 0:02:27.356 This isn't a new issue, it's one peaceful protesters have 0:02:27.476 --> 0:02:32.396 long faced in South Africa, Egypt, Ukraine, Tunisia, and during 0:02:32.436 --> 0:02:37.156 Occupy Wall Street. Sergia Popovitch is a Serbian activist and 0:02:37.276 --> 0:02:40.956 scholar of social movements. Organizers from around the world have 0:02:41.076 --> 0:02:43.556 turned to him for advice about how to strengthen and 0:02:43.636 --> 0:02:48.276 propel their movements. Popovitch is the executive director of the 0:02:48.316 --> 0:02:53.676 Center for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies or CANVAS. He 0:02:53.796 --> 0:02:58.596 literally wrote a user's manual for successful social change. Our 0:02:58.636 --> 0:03:02.476 host Anna Applebaumb lives in Poland. She spoke to Papovitch 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:05.996 from his home in Belgrade in Serbia. Here's their conversation. 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:11.276 My soula boys, is to create social change through the 0:03:11.396 --> 0:03:16.116 successful and strategic non violent movement. So, Sergia, why is 0:03:16.156 --> 0:03:20.356 this your solvable? In other words, what makes this issue 0:03:20.396 --> 0:03:23.516 personal to you? Well? First of all, I started very young. 0:03:23.756 --> 0:03:26.636 On my freshman year on the university. We were faced 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:30.716 with a crazy regime in Belgrade back Daryan nineties, and 0:03:30.796 --> 0:03:33.316 you kind of had two choices. You can fight or 0:03:33.356 --> 0:03:36.636 you can flee. I guess I was too stubborn to flee, 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.356 so I stayed and fight. Together with a group of friends, 0:03:39.436 --> 0:03:41.876 we launched a movement called Oddpoor, which is a Serbian 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:45.076 work for resistance, and then built from eleven people to 0:03:45.236 --> 0:03:48.956 seventy thousand people, eventually getting rid of the bad guy 0:03:49.076 --> 0:03:52.716 Miloshevic and I kind of went addicted to the idea 0:03:52.756 --> 0:03:55.876 of the social change group people power movements. Ever since 0:03:56.436 --> 0:04:01.436 you originally began oddpoor you and your friends, we've had 0:04:01.476 --> 0:04:04.956 any experience. You hadn't run protests before, you hadn't organized 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:07.636 a movement before, you know, and now you're able to 0:04:07.676 --> 0:04:10.836 advise people. So how did you begin thinking through the 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:14.516 problem in the beginning? Was it just spontaneous or did 0:04:14.516 --> 0:04:18.076 you plan? First of all, we started by doing it 0:04:18.156 --> 0:04:20.876 without planning, which is why it took us nine years 0:04:20.876 --> 0:04:23.556 to actually do it. So ninety two we did a 0:04:23.636 --> 0:04:27.396 little bit of locking ourselves in the campuses, singing for 0:04:27.556 --> 0:04:30.476 peace kind of stuff. It didn't work because it didn't 0:04:30.476 --> 0:04:34.196 involve the rural people. Then ninety six ninety seven, a 0:04:34.196 --> 0:04:37.636 lot of people were mobilized. We expanded to the smaller places. 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:41.636 We protested for one hundred days, day by day by day. 0:04:41.876 --> 0:04:44.036 This will we figure out that every day protest is 0:04:44.036 --> 0:04:46.316 probably not the best way to do it because it's 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:49.916 very exhausting. So we figure out that it is the 0:04:50.076 --> 0:04:53.636 unity thing that we are missing. Most of the protesters 0:04:53.636 --> 0:04:55.596 in the world getting involved in a protest, and then 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:59.356 they say we are too busy to plan. So learning 0:04:59.356 --> 0:05:02.516 by doing and making mistakes is actually the best way 0:05:02.556 --> 0:05:05.516 to do stuff, but it's very slow. So would strongly 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:08.316 advocate to the people to start reading books and learn 0:05:08.356 --> 0:05:11.956 from other people mistakes rather than learning from there on. 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:16.076 How did you break it down in dissolvable pieces? How 0:05:16.116 --> 0:05:18.476 should people who want to create change think about that? 0:05:19.036 --> 0:05:22.316 For a successful protest, you need so much more than 0:05:22.356 --> 0:05:25.516 the protest. You need an idea what should be different, 0:05:25.556 --> 0:05:28.356 what you call vision of tomorrow. Then you need to 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:31.076 share this vision with the different groups. Then you need 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:33.836 to work with the people you are not normally alike 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:37.596 and probably disagree on many other stuff to really get 0:05:37.636 --> 0:05:40.276 to the change. So you need to take a really 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:43.996 sober look at the groups you need, and then, without 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.916 politicizing and ideologizing, thank you, approach these groups and then 0:05:47.956 --> 0:05:50.716 you try to figure out how you work together for 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:54.276 the change that benefits everybody, because you need to understand 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:58.796 social change is a very kind of selfish for many people. 0:05:59.156 --> 0:06:01.236 And the trick in these thanks is to find this 0:06:01.596 --> 0:06:05.996 unifying prop position which is the smallest common denominator from 0:06:06.036 --> 0:06:09.316 the groups you want to mobilize and very important. Do 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:11.996 you want to agree on what you agree, but you 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:14.596 also want to agree what you disagree, So this is 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.836 not about the things that are different among us. We 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:20.796 leave this thing for layer, But let's solve this one 0:06:20.916 --> 0:06:23.636 big issue. Let's get rid of communism, let's get rid 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:27.316 of Miloschovitch, Let's make more racial equality, and so on 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:29.476 and so forth, and then we are going to look 0:06:29.476 --> 0:06:33.876 at our narcissism or small differences later. Tell me about 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:37.636 the nonviolent piece of it as well. Because the civil 0:06:37.716 --> 0:06:41.316 rights movement in the nineteen sixties was successful, you know, 0:06:41.396 --> 0:06:44.596 not only because people were extremely brave and very disciplined 0:06:44.596 --> 0:06:47.556 in their non violent tactics. Well, what about the argument 0:06:47.636 --> 0:06:52.396 that because those demonstrations existed alongside more aggressive protests by 0:06:52.436 --> 0:06:54.996 groups like the Black Panthers that brought attention to the 0:06:54.996 --> 0:06:57.876 nonviolent movement? Is that a you know, do you need 0:06:57.956 --> 0:07:00.516 some element of danger in order for people to admire 0:07:00.596 --> 0:07:05.476 and follow nonviolent leaders? Well, first of all, need to 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:08.556 understand that there is a historic proof that the non 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:11.636 bounced the works. And there is a very serious study 0:07:11.676 --> 0:07:14.756 done by two American scholars, Maria Stephan and Erica Chanot, 0:07:15.116 --> 0:07:17.876 and they were looking about three hundred twenty three different 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:21.036 movements in the last century and actually figure out that 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.076 the non violent movements are twice more likely to succeed 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:27.796 the Stein's actually studies and we're looking at the movements 0:07:28.236 --> 0:07:31.636 that actually had the violent flank, and that's the flank 0:07:31.716 --> 0:07:36.196 that sometimes resort to the violence. And they actually prove 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:38.996 that the movements without the violent flank are more likely 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:42.276 to succeed and the movements with violent flank, for example, 0:07:42.316 --> 0:07:45.956 the Unti Appretiated movement in South Africa did have the 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:49.116 violent flank, which is the solely reason why why Nelson 0:07:49.156 --> 0:07:52.236 Mandela was sitting in jail for so many years. They 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:54.916 are more likely to succeed when they get rids of 0:07:54.956 --> 0:07:58.636 this flank. For successful non VLAN movement, you need participation. 0:07:59.236 --> 0:08:02.996 The more people participate, and also the more diverse people 0:08:03.116 --> 0:08:06.356 participate in the movement, the more you're likely to success. 0:08:06.396 --> 0:08:09.236 And there are numerous studies that show that if there 0:08:09.356 --> 0:08:12.636 is a protest about whatever topic in the world, which 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:17.876 is likely to be cheerful, massive, peaceful, nice, with a 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:20.796 lot of music and probably some pranks, I will probably 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:22.916 come in. I'll bring my wife and I will bring 0:08:22.996 --> 0:08:26.036 my kids. And they're at this point four and six. 0:08:26.276 --> 0:08:28.756 By the way, the kids are these these lovely creatures 0:08:28.756 --> 0:08:32.196 you hear in the background. If this is the place 0:08:32.236 --> 0:08:34.556 where somebody will burn the building and burn the car, 0:08:34.796 --> 0:08:37.116 and then it will be a tear gas I'll probably 0:08:37.756 --> 0:08:40.596 come without the kids. And then if this is the 0:08:40.636 --> 0:08:43.556 place where somebody will shoot around live rounds, I'll probably 0:08:43.556 --> 0:08:45.836 not appear at all. So when you take a look 0:08:45.836 --> 0:08:49.836 at the level of risk, it's really connected to the participation. 0:08:49.996 --> 0:08:52.756 So the more non violent you make it, the more 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:55.996 peaceful you make it, the more you put the risk 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:59.596 bar down, the more people are likely to participate. The 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:02.236 more people are likely to participate. And the same study 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:04.396 proves that you need being three and five percent of 0:09:04.436 --> 0:09:07.876 the society to participate in the campaign to get a 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:11.356 successful campaign. So taking a look at this, the movements 0:09:11.516 --> 0:09:16.436 really developed skills to overcome the violent groups, to build 0:09:16.476 --> 0:09:20.036 a non violent discipline. It's actually a skill. What do 0:09:20.076 --> 0:09:23.476 you mean by skill? What's give me an example of 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:26.436 a skill that people can learn. So if you play 0:09:26.556 --> 0:09:30.316 violence against the state, this is selecting the boxing ring 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:35.316 to play against the Mike Tyson. Your opponent has a 0:09:35.436 --> 0:09:38.996 social contract use violence here, or she has a police 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:41.436 he or she has a military. So this is your 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:44.716 place of weakness. So whatever argument you use this is 0:09:44.716 --> 0:09:47.796 the first level is explain to your people that you 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:52.476 are weaker if you're using violence. Step number two is 0:09:52.956 --> 0:09:56.356 select tactics which are less likely to produce violence. So 0:09:56.836 --> 0:09:59.956 violence of cures on when you use tactics of concentration, 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:03.796 the protests, the marches, speaking common language. This is where 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:08.116 your troops meet their troops. This is where the violence happens. 0:10:08.196 --> 0:10:11.756 So if you instead boycott things, and this is what 0:10:11.836 --> 0:10:14.716 the South African movement did, if you instead hit pots 0:10:14.716 --> 0:10:17.316 and fans from the windows, if you instead use other 0:10:17.436 --> 0:10:20.756 methods of dispersion, there will be no conflict. If you 0:10:20.916 --> 0:10:24.556 must have tactics of concentration. You're angry. You want to 0:10:24.596 --> 0:10:26.876 shape short numbers. The people want to go out in 0:10:26.956 --> 0:10:29.876 the street. The people are really upbeat about the marches 0:10:29.916 --> 0:10:33.236 and stuff like that. Organize your own security. You have 0:10:33.396 --> 0:10:36.236 seen people in US protests. You have seen people in 0:10:36.276 --> 0:10:39.676 many protests across the world organizing their own security. The 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:42.956 purpose of the security is to protect your own people, 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:45.876 but also to protect police from your own people. So 0:10:45.916 --> 0:10:48.676 if you take a photos of Burmese protest, you see 0:10:48.996 --> 0:10:51.236 monks in the front range. If you take a look 0:10:51.236 --> 0:10:55.196 at the Serbian protest, you'll see girls, disabled people in 0:10:55.236 --> 0:10:58.676 the front ranks. Why so because they are less likely 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:02.516 to attack the police. So this is how you structure 0:11:02.556 --> 0:11:05.596 your organization. When you go to the protest. You want 0:11:05.596 --> 0:11:09.476 to control your own people because there may be you know, 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:12.476 crazy heads there. They'll maybe drunk people, they may be 0:11:12.556 --> 0:11:17.236 aged prok tours that are infiltrated in your group in 0:11:17.356 --> 0:11:20.396 order to start violence, which has been done with the 0:11:20.436 --> 0:11:22.756 protest group in the history. The thing is, you need 0:11:22.796 --> 0:11:25.756 to be committed to non violence. You need to preach 0:11:25.796 --> 0:11:27.676 it and teach it to your group. You want to 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:31.876 train your people not to resort to the violence. Remember, 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:35.876 in almost none of the cases, it is not the 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:40.596 police that you're targeting. You're targeting the government. You're targeting injustice, 0:11:40.676 --> 0:11:44.876 you're targeting the bad rules, you're targeting corrupt officials. So basically, 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:47.196 you really want to police pull police on your side. 0:11:47.316 --> 0:11:49.876 You actually want them to join the protest. But the 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:52.836 only way to do it is not throwing objects on them, 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:55.156 but talking to them. Yeah. Well, well, in the US, 0:11:55.236 --> 0:11:56.836 as you see in the last couple of weeks, some 0:11:56.916 --> 0:12:00.316 police have joint protests and very notably in a few places. 0:12:00.716 --> 0:12:04.716 But what about in other situations where the protest is 0:12:04.756 --> 0:12:10.236 about the police. How do you prevent protesters from from 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:14.036 lashing out, and why shouldn't they remember It's like every 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:16.556 time it comes to human rights violation, it is the 0:12:16.636 --> 0:12:19.276 person with the name who does it. What do you mean, 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:21.956 a person with a name? So the police didn't do it. 0:12:22.516 --> 0:12:25.476 The person with a name did it. So it's not 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:28.716 about a police because this four policemen did it, and 0:12:28.756 --> 0:12:32.156 they have names and badges and numbers, and they should 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.156 be punished and prosecuted while the rest of the police 0:12:35.196 --> 0:12:37.956 should be there to preserve law in order. And it 0:12:38.116 --> 0:12:40.916 isn't the best interest of all of us to take 0:12:40.956 --> 0:12:44.356 this rotten apples out. I'm what about the argument that 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:48.156 you know, sometimes a police force or you know, is 0:12:48.476 --> 0:12:51.636 simply structured in a way that it can't be changed. 0:12:51.676 --> 0:12:53.636 I mean, there's a and this, by the way, is 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:55.956 not just an argument you here in the US. You know, 0:12:56.036 --> 0:12:58.676 we heard it in communist countries after the fall of communism. 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:00.756 There was this idea that, you know, you need to 0:13:00.796 --> 0:13:04.796 ban or abolish secret police forces because you know they'll 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:06.316 just come back in a new form. And these are 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:10.796 people who are unreformable. Are are there unreformable institutions? So 0:13:10.956 --> 0:13:14.356 when you have a situation like this, especially with history 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:18.636 of racial abuse, and racial intolerance. Like in US, you 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:22.116 need to build confidence. You need a joint place where 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:25.356 us and then meet. It is the US and them 0:13:25.436 --> 0:13:28.796 mentality which brought us here at the first place. So 0:13:28.836 --> 0:13:31.196 where we are talking about the social clubs, where you're 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:34.076 talking about the UK recreation clubs, either place where people 0:13:34.076 --> 0:13:36.556 can touch a policeman or a policewoman, where they can 0:13:36.596 --> 0:13:39.396 talk to him or her and figure out that they are. 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:42.676 You know, there are people like ourselves and also these 0:13:42.716 --> 0:13:46.236 people from the police force. They need the way to 0:13:46.316 --> 0:13:51.076 communicate with a culture they will be policing. This is very, 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:54.516 very difficult problem to solve. It has been solved in 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:58.836 many countries. But actually bridging this social distance and bridging 0:13:58.836 --> 0:14:02.156 this cultural distance and building this joint space is where 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:06.156 you solve the cause of the problem. Overseeing police, putting 0:14:06.196 --> 0:14:09.276 cameras on the police, you're curing the symptom. But the 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:13.236 real problem with this illness is that people don't understand 0:14:13.236 --> 0:14:16.436 the self. They're coming from a very different world and 0:14:16.476 --> 0:14:19.076 they're coming from the history of intolerance. And this is 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:22.836 where I think systemic problem like this should be addressed. 0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:25.316 And that works for you, as that works for any 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:28.276 given movement in the world. Why do you say it 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.396 works for any given movement in the world. Don't we 0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:35.276 all have deep cultural differences, aren't there? You know, profound 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:39.436 you know differences between United States and the Philippines and 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:42.276 South Africa and Poland. I mean, how can you how 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:44.996 can you give advice to these very different kinds of 0:14:45.036 --> 0:14:51.396 movements with different histories and ethnicities and different kinds of education. Well, 0:14:51.436 --> 0:14:53.596 what happens when you when you meet the group? I 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:56.916 mean the way, the way my organization works is that 0:14:56.956 --> 0:15:00.116 we get invitation from the group, invitations from a variety 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:03.556 of different groups. And that can be a anti restist 0:15:03.596 --> 0:15:06.916 activist in the US, and that can be a you know, 0:15:07.116 --> 0:15:11.876 gender right activists who is care about abortion legislation coming 0:15:11.916 --> 0:15:15.076 in Poland, and that can be something in Uganda fighting 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:18.516 the brutal dictatorship. And every time they come in with 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:22.236 the same sentence like, okay, our case is different. So yes, 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:24.556 it worked well great in your own case, but in 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.476 our situation you need to figure out everything is different. 0:15:27.756 --> 0:15:30.796 And this is true. The contexts are different, the mentalities 0:15:30.836 --> 0:15:34.996 are different, The level of existing political and social space 0:15:35.156 --> 0:15:38.516 is very different in Uganda, Poland than us. But when 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:40.756 you take a look at the principles throughout the history 0:15:40.756 --> 0:15:44.316 of the principles are more or less the same. You 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:47.796 will never win without knowing what you want. So most 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:51.436 of the movements that died in an early phase died 0:15:51.476 --> 0:15:54.476 because they knew what they are against, but they didn't 0:15:54.476 --> 0:15:58.156 really knew what they want. You will never never win 0:15:58.316 --> 0:16:01.596 without building the wider coalition of the people and building 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:05.236 the unity and holding to this unity through the rough times. 0:16:05.756 --> 0:16:09.916 Successful movements are always carefully planned. Only two types of 0:16:09.956 --> 0:16:14.316 movements in this world. They're either spontaneous or successful. They 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:18.036 can't be both. And you will never win without understanding 0:16:18.076 --> 0:16:21.596 that one single act of violence can send all of 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:24.516 your non vound efforts on their ice. So if you 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:27.436 apply these principles, then it will work in Maldives, in 0:16:27.596 --> 0:16:31.436 Poland and Georgia and Ukraine and Egypt and everywhere. If 0:16:31.476 --> 0:16:34.756 you kind of make mistake in some of these principles, 0:16:34.756 --> 0:16:38.116 it is very likely that you will fail. A lot 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:40.316 of research, a lot of practice, a lot of movements 0:16:40.116 --> 0:16:43.916 have tried this in the past, and actually, however different 0:16:43.956 --> 0:16:46.956 you are, you will never win without these three principles. 0:16:47.076 --> 0:16:49.756 And that's something you figure out when you deal with this. 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:53.156 For about fifteen years. So, Sergia, what are three or 0:16:53.196 --> 0:16:57.196 four things that people listening to this to this podcast 0:16:57.276 --> 0:17:00.036 can do right now to help fix the kinds of 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:02.676 problems they see around them. Well, first of all, they 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.836 can get active, and they need to figure out that 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:09.196 every change in the world comes from us. So watching 0:17:09.196 --> 0:17:11.436 it and waiting for somebody else to solve the thing, 0:17:11.676 --> 0:17:15.036 or posting and sharing it and liking it, it's not enough. 0:17:15.556 --> 0:17:17.956 You need to get involved. You need to get invested. 0:17:17.956 --> 0:17:20.436 You need to get your friends in, you need to 0:17:20.436 --> 0:17:24.756 recruit more people if you're passionate for the change. Second, 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:27.556 read books, watch movies. They are amazing books and movies 0:17:27.836 --> 0:17:31.316 written on the matter, starting with a little forty five 0:17:31.356 --> 0:17:35.276 minutes ten videos which you can fight on our website 0:17:35.316 --> 0:17:37.276 on how to build a successful movement. So if you 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:39.836 want to invest forty five minutes of your life, go 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:43.396 and can Alsoppedia dot organ check it. But most important, 0:17:43.796 --> 0:17:46.996 you need to figure out that the world won't change 0:17:47.036 --> 0:17:50.156 by itself, that even the smallest creature can change the 0:17:50.196 --> 0:17:53.796 destiny of the world. And whether or not you are 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:55.996 the big front of the Lord of the Rings. You 0:17:56.076 --> 0:17:59.796 need to imagine yourself as a hobbit and every time. 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:03.196 It's a hobbit. So you need to understand that without 0:18:03.196 --> 0:18:07.196 your things will change, and don't watch get involved. If 0:18:07.236 --> 0:18:09.796 you're angry, try to figure out how from the sanger 0:18:09.876 --> 0:18:13.676 into hope. If you are hopeful, mobilizing more hopeful things, 0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:17.236 you have talents and skills, please join some of the 0:18:17.916 --> 0:18:23.396 progressive movements and disappointment and never ever lose hope. Sergia, 0:18:23.596 --> 0:18:26.796 thank you so much. Thank you on such a pleasure 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:30.516 and thrill working with one of my most favorite journalists 0:18:30.556 --> 0:18:35.716 on this point, and one of my favorites too, that 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:39.876 was Anna Applebaumb speaking with Sergia Popovich. Sergia is the 0:18:39.916 --> 0:18:44.116 executive director of the Center for Applied Non Violent Action 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:47.876 and Strategies or CANVAS. You can find a link to 0:18:47.916 --> 0:18:51.156 the videos he mentioned on the Solvable website and at 0:18:51.276 --> 0:18:55.516 canvas Opedia dot org. Solvable is brought to you by 0:18:55.596 --> 0:19:00.316 Pushkin Industries. The show is produced by Camille Baptista, Jocelyn Frank, 0:19:00.396 --> 0:19:05.316 and Katherine Girardo. Mia Lobell is our executive producer. Special 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:10.556 thanks to Kadija Holland, Heather Fame, Carle Bigleior, Eric Sandler 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:13.796 and the whole Pushkin team. We'll be back next week 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:17.396 with the next episode in this mini series about organizing 0:19:17.436 --> 0:19:21.076 and racial justice, I'll talk with Inscha Rachman about how 0:19:21.156 --> 0:19:24.516 to solve mass incarceration. I hope you'll join us