1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 3: Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And in today's episode, 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 3: we're going to be kicking off a series that we're 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 3: calling The Sunken Lands, that is about the idea of 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 3: lands submerged underwaters. Now, not too long ago, we did 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 3: a series of episodes on the tendency people have to 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 3: quite readily interpret any weird looking, low resolution photograph as 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 3: evidence of our highly speculative theory of choice, whatever you like. 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 3: So here's a picture of a shape that maybe doesn't 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 3: look organic in origin, so it is evidence of an 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 3: alien spacecraft that crash landed on our planet five thousand 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 3: years ago. But then, as we discussed in that series, 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 3: often if you're able to get a higher resolution image 15 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 3: of the same object or just get more contextual information, 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 3: oh wait, it's actually a rock. But one very popular 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 3: genre of imagery for this exercise is underwater photography. It 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: happens with, you know, images of things in the sky 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: as well or things just obscured in various contexts, but 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 3: underwater photography is especially juicy here. I think because the 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 3: conditions of underwater photography naturally lend themselves to the kind 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 3: of tantalizing state of low information that sets our imagination 23 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 3: running wild. Unlets you fill in the gaps with whatever 24 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: you were excited about. And when the weird looking thing 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: is underwater, the highly speculative theory people use to explain 26 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: it might still be aliens, as we discussed in the 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: example of you know, one underwater object, probably a glacial 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: erratic boulder that people did in some cases interpret as 29 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: a crashed alien spacecraft. But another common explanation for weird 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: looking things underwater is the sunken civilization, most often Atlantis, 31 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 3: but there are other candidates as well, and the idea 32 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: of a lost civilization vanished under the sea is so 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: captivating to people it is hard to resist the urge 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: to see an underwater rock with sharp corners and say 35 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: that's not a rock, that's a building. This is one 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: of their ancient skyscrapers, and now it's hidden under the waves. 37 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's basically the same energy, but in a different 38 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: temporal direction. Instead of looking to aliens from beyond, you're 39 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: looking for some sort of advance to civilization from the 40 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: past that may or may not match up with realistic 41 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: expectations of the past right now. 42 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 3: Of course, in some limited cases, there are examples of 43 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 3: human artifacts or human built at a faciity that can 44 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: be found underneath the water. Now we'll probably talk about 45 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 3: some of those examples. But in most cases we can 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: say with pretty high confidence that the things people are 47 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: looking at in these images are not even intelligently designed artifacts. 48 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: It's usually like a rock or some kind of undersea creature, 49 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 3: something like that. And for various reasons that we might 50 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: get into, even if what you find under the water 51 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 3: was designed by humans, there are strong reasons for doubting 52 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: anybody who says, aha, we have discovered Atlantis. 53 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 2: Rob. 54 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 3: I don't know if you want to talk about this 55 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: now or later, but there are reasons for thinking Plato's 56 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: allegory of Atlantis was maybe not even meant to refer 57 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: to an actually existing place, or if there, or if 58 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: it was, there's no reason to think that it's anything 59 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: more than a legend, that it's like a thing we 60 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: should actually be looking for on Earth. 61 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get back to Atlantis in just a second. 62 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: That we could easily devote an entire podcaster more to 63 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: just chasing the idea of Atlanta. It's around, but we'll 64 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: try and keep it contained. 65 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: But while all of that is true, while Atlantis hunting 66 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: is probably a misguided exercise, it's also true that there 67 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: actually are some places on planet Earth where what is 68 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: now the seafloor was relatively recently land land that could 69 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: have been, or in some cases was occupied by humans. 70 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: And so that's what we want to talk about in 71 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 3: the series, places on Earth that are now under the 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 3: waves but were once part of the world above. 73 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: And while we're mostly I guess talking like that, we 74 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: talk about the waves, we think about atlant as we 75 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: think about the ocean, but we may also touch on 76 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: some examples that have been lost underneath rivers or lakes, 77 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: sometimes with man made lakes in play. But perhaps we'll 78 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: come back to that in another episode. 79 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: Oh that's a good variation. Yes. Now, one thing to 80 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: be clear about is that part of what makes these 81 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: sunken lands interesting is merely a question of time. Because 82 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: of course Earth is, you know, is geologically active. It 83 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: has a dynamic surface, and over millions of years, the 84 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: crust of the Earth undergoes changes. There's continental drift, there 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 3: are all kinds of changes that happen to the crust 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 3: of the earth. Areas that were formerly exposed are buried. 87 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: Areas that were formerly buried are exposed. Areas that used 88 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 3: to be ocean become land, Areas that used to be 89 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: land become ocean. So we know that happens on a 90 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: geological time scale. What we're talking about here are lands 91 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 3: that have become covered in water relatively recently, maybe on 92 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: the order of thousands of years or even less. Yeah. 93 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we have these basic geologic realities to keep 94 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: in mind, but then we see them reflected in different 95 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: ways in our folklore, our mythology, our religion. Like even 96 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: if you weren't, if you were, if you somehow avoided 97 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: any scientific inquiry, in any scientific understanding about these changes, 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: you would perhaps be exposed then to religious ideas about 99 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: these changes, the various religious and mythological ideas that go 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: way back in multiple different faiths, involving global or regional 101 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: flooding that is attributed to divine causation in many cases. 102 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: So given all of this, though, again it should come 103 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: as no shock that just the mere idea of sunken islands, 104 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: lost islands, phantom islands, lost continents, etc. This has long 105 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: stirred the human imagination, and a lot has been written 106 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: on this, but interestingly enough, one of the more well 107 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: regarded books on this, now it's a slightly older book, 108 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 2: came out, I believe, nineteen fifty four, so it doesn't reflect, 109 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: you know, decades upon decades of additional contemplation and discovery. 110 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 2: But El Sprague de Camp, who have nineteen oh seven 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: through two thousand wrote a book titled Lost Continents the 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: Atlantis theme in history, science, and literature. Now de Camp 113 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: is an interesting fellow because he was also an influential 114 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: sci fi author, whose works include nineteen thirty nine's Less 115 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 2: Darkness Fall. He was also a posthumous collaborator with Conan 116 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: creator Robert E. Howard, so he actually contributed quite a 117 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: bit to the literary world of Conan the Barbarian, and 118 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: interestingly enough, he served as an advisor on both nineteen 119 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: eighties Conan the Barbarian and Conan the Destroyer movies, as 120 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: well as nineteen ninety seven's Cole of a Conqueror, which 121 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: does not have Arnold in it, but is an adaptation 122 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 2: of a Conan novel. 123 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: Idea is okay, So that's the one that's got Kevin 124 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: Sorbo in it, right, right, Kevin Sorbo But these hercules, Yeah, so. 125 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: I think it was based on a Conan novel. But 126 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: then they just changed his name to coll the Conqueror, 127 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: who's another character in Robert E. Howard's world. But I'm 128 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: not super familiar with this movie or this other character. 129 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: I've never seen that one. But my mind is aroused 130 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: at the thoughts of scripts that Schwarzenegger said no to. 131 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: Now, it is worth noting that Robert E. Howard was 132 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: one of numerous Pulp era authors to make use of 133 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: lost in sunken islands, and a lot of this, you know, 134 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: does have to do as sort of the timeline of 135 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: interest in these fantastic ideas. I'll touch on a few 136 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: other examples from the pulp era in just a minute, 137 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: but in this book, De Camp discusses at length this 138 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: idea of a human fascination, literary, pseudohistorical, pseudo geogological, various 139 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: interests in this idea of lost lands, lost continents, etc. 140 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: And he points out that a lot of it comes 141 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: back to this idea of a lost land that is 142 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: often situated as some sort of utopia. It's a utopian ideal, 143 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: or where it's an eden. It is a place where 144 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 2: where we got it right or things were right before 145 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: the fall. You know, this idea that Okay, things are 146 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: not great, but there must have been a point in 147 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: time where things were in balance. And of course, and 148 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: in summoning this idea, there is at least implied the 149 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 2: idea that we might be able to return to it, 150 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: either by our own efforts or by some sort of 151 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: divine intervention. 152 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's interesting and that that's correct. A 153 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: lot of these stories about sunken lands and the civilizations 154 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 3: that inhabited them. I guess there are some exceptions, but 155 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: they don't usually seem to be well, this is just 156 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 3: another place like many others, you know, that was just 157 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 3: happened to be low lying and was swallowed by the waves, 158 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: or there was some kind of weather event. It almost 159 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: always is idealized in some way. It was a place 160 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 3: that was especially good or especially advanced, or especially bad 161 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 3: in some way. 162 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, in some manner or another, this place 163 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: ties it all together, Which comes back to so many 164 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: of these these threads that we've discussed in conspiracy thinking 165 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: and and so forth. The idea that like Okay, I 166 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: have found something, and if true, and of course I 167 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: believe it is true, it will explain all these other mysteries. 168 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: You know, you drop this in the middle of everything 169 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: and it all makes sense. 170 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: It's the master key. Yes. 171 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 2: So I don't really want to do an exhaustive list 172 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: of every mythical and fictional sunken land. I mean, there's 173 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: there's a lot there, and a lot of them are 174 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: also closely connected. I mean just in fantasy alone. It's 175 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: like who anybody engaging in some broad world building is 176 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: going to have perhaps in Atlantis or at least a 177 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: lost land. I mean, it's just it's too attractive a 178 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: trope to give up on, right, But I thought we 179 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: might hit some notable examples in the main three or 180 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: four categories you might consider mythology, fiction, pseudoscience. But I 181 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: do want to note that some entries will move between 182 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: these classifications because once once you introduce an idea and 183 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: other folks will come and and use it and maybe 184 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: drifted into another category. So in mythology, I thought I 185 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 2: might mention Avalon of course, the magical island where King 186 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 2: Arthur was taken after sustaining mortal wounds. It's also the 187 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: origin place of his sword EXCaliber, and in general just 188 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: a magical land of Authorian legend, possibly linked in origin 189 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: to Fladamorgana or Glastonbury tor Note that this isn't even 190 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: the only sunken island in Authurian legend, though there are 191 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: there are others. It's just like an irresistible magical idea, 192 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: though again one that may be rooted in strange observations. 193 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: Islands that seem to be there but are not that 194 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 2: are you know, Fata Morgana, that are due to an 195 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: illusion of one sort or another, or just a mistake 196 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: of cartography, of trying to figure out what's out there 197 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: and making mistakes. 198 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: Both direct perceptual illusions and knowledge illusions give rise to 199 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: the idea of islands that used to be there, but 200 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 3: now you can't find them. 201 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: Right And then of course in the background again the 202 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: geologic reality that things do change, and it is not 203 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: beyond the realm of possibility that a lost island could 204 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: truly be lost. It could have been a physical place 205 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: and is no more. Another one is Brazil or High Brazil. 206 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: This has generally nothing to do with Brazil, the South 207 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: American country. This is an Irish lost Isle of myth, 208 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 2: a phantom island that is covered by myst most of 209 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: the year, but then that mist opens up. Sometimes featured 210 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: on old maps and was sought after by cartographers, because 211 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: again you have anytime you have this idea of an 212 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: island that is thought to exist, and then it seems 213 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: like it doesn't exist. I mean, that's a mystery that 214 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 2: has to be explored. Now. It doesn't have to be 215 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: an island, of course, you can also have coastal areas 216 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: that are swallowed up. There's a mythical city in the 217 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 2: traditions of Brittany and France. And I may be pronouncing 218 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: this one wrong, yees, I believe it's y s. I 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: assume it's not wise, But anyway, it's allegedly consumed by 220 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: the ocean, and it's fatured into a number of creative works, 221 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: especially in French traditions. But of course the whole other 222 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: realm is fiction, of course, and once something has been 223 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: introduced in myth, given enough time, it may enter into fiction. 224 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 2: And this leads us to Atlantis, as we've already discussed. Yeah, 225 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: the lost continent of Atlantis, so called, has a prominent 226 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: place in pseudo science and conspiracy thinking and fiction. Among 227 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: the many entries here, I have to point out a 228 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: couple of things from nineteen eighty two. One I brought 229 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: up many times before, but if you have not seen 230 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: the commercial for Atari's Atlantis video game from nineteen eighty two, 231 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: look it up. It's marvelous. I think I saw this 232 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: when I was like four years old, and it's scared 233 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: and amazed me. 234 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: Rarely does a thirty second TV commercial have such a 235 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: bone chilling plot twist it does. 236 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: They really packed a lot into this one. I have 237 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: no idea if the game was fun at the time 238 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: or is well remembered like a retro experience. But as 239 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 2: I was revisiting this, because anytime this comes up, I 240 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: have to go rewatch it. And then I discovered, weirdly 241 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: enough that the brothers Hildebrand did a wall calendar of 242 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: original art themed around Atlantis the same year, and I 243 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: kept thinking, well, these have to be connected. There must 244 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: have been some connective tissue here. If there is, I 245 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: couldn't find it. But I love the brother's Hildebrand. They did, 246 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: of course, a lot of great Tolkien work, and they 247 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: did Tolkien calendars back in the day, and yeah, they 248 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: have this one calendar of Atlantis art with all sorts 249 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: of like fantastic adventures going on, some sort of like 250 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: demon lord, a dragon, so forth. So many people don't 251 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: realize that their origins are of Atlantis are also based 252 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: in fiction. You go back to around three fifty five BCE. 253 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: That's when Greek philosopher Plato discusses the concept of Atlantis 254 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: and a pair of dialogues Tomaeus and Critias. Atlantis is 255 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 2: described as a naval empire that rules the western known world, 256 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: but they all sintly fail when they come up against 257 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: the Athenians. Then they fall out of favor with the 258 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: gods and their world is consumed by the Atlantic Ocean. 259 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: It's described along the lines as being like the you know, 260 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: the the ideal of Plato's Republic. But here's the thing. 261 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: There's no other surviving mention of Atlantis in the ancient 262 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: Mediterranean world, aside from commentaries and responses to Plato's work. So, 263 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: in other words, there's no indication that this was a 264 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: pre existing idea, that this was something that was considered 265 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: actual history, or even like a pre existing I guess 266 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: you would say literary. 267 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: Trope, right, So it's not even clear that it was 268 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: thought to actually be a place right now. 269 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: Among those various commentators over many years, it looks like 270 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: many took it as meta metaphor and or as myth, 271 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: though you do have some folks that pop up that 272 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: end up taking a more literal approach to it, or 273 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: so it seems, based again on surviving texts. As such, 274 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: you end up with a legacy of varying interpretations, which 275 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: DeCamp summarizes is either taking it on as a fiction, 276 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: finding actual societies that you can compare to Atlantis, the 277 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 2: investigation of land bridges and islands with Atlantis in mind, 278 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: and also just the wholesale acceptance of the concept as 279 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: historical truth. And of course this approach especially is widely 280 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: regarded as pseudohistory at the very least now. Again, though, 281 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: just because something is introduced in fiction doesn't mean it 282 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: stays in fiction like these. That's one of the interesting 283 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: things about this, and I guess in general about about 284 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: human imagination is once something has been imagined, it doesn't 285 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: have to stay in that realm of sort of safe 286 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: unreal in fiction. It can move into other categories of 287 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: the unreal, the mythological, the the pseudoscientific, the pseudohistorical, the 288 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: pseudo archaeological, et cetera. 289 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: I have to wonder if in thousands of years they're 290 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: going to be people being like you know, when Tolkien 291 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: talked about the elves going to valen or across the ocean, 292 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 3: was that referring to the island of Cuba. 293 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: Do you think, yeah, exactly, And you do end up 294 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 2: with that sort of inquiry. I mean in part of that, 295 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: of course, too, is you have someone like Plato who 296 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: has such high standing and sort of the intellectual world 297 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: for centuries and centuries. You know, people are going to 298 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 2: come back and and reanalyze everything that they wrote. Now 299 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: in terms of fiction, I will just mention in passing 300 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 2: like a few examples that I love the work of 301 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: Clark Ashton Smith, and a lot of his stories involved 302 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: lost continents. I think he has three different lost continents. Well, 303 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 2: the one of them is a continent from the future 304 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: that doesn't exist now. So it's sort of kind of again, 305 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: kind of the same concept but put in reverse, taking 306 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: in the future and saying in the future there will 307 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: be a new continent and these are the sort of 308 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: adventures that will take place there. And of course J R. 309 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 2: Tolkien got in on the action as well. We have 310 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: the lost Kingdom of Middle Earth, Numenor. This was corrupted 311 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: by Sauron in his fair form, and then it's destroyed 312 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: in a cataclysm as the kingdom turns against the Valor. 313 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: Oh is Numanor swallowed by waters. I never understood that, 314 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: I guess I just thought of it as like an 315 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: empire that fell. 316 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a star shaped island I believe, according 317 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: to the maps and the recent Amazon series, I believe 318 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: depicts the fall of Numenor. I'm having trouble remembering offhand. 319 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: I need to revisit it before they put out another season. 320 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: I guess. 321 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: Oh, I haven't watched that yet, but been meaning to 322 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 3: check it out at some point. 323 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: High production values. 324 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 325 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: Now, in the pseudoscientific world, and again there's a lot 326 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: of overlap with these, with these sort of loose categories, 327 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: you have the Island of MoU. This is both a 328 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 2: place of pseudoscience and fantasy, according to de Camp, proposed 329 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century by British American archaeologist and photographer 330 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: Augustus Lplogion, who used it to connect Mayan civilization to 331 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: ancient Egyptian civilization. Again, this is one of those classic 332 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: examples of like, if this exists, it explains everything, and 333 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: getting into this idea of like, well, look, we have 334 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: things in Mayan civilization, we have things in ancient Egyptian civilization. 335 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: They remind me of each other. There must be some 336 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: like missing link to connect them. Otherwise this doesn't make 337 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 2: sense to me. 338 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: That they could. They both built pyramids sort of, so 339 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 3: that couldn't be explained by them both just figuring out 340 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 3: how to build pyramids right right. 341 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: But then on top of this, British occultist James Churchward 342 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: would go on to write about MoU as well, associating 343 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: it with Lemuria, which we'll get to in a second. 344 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 2: In works of pseudoscience that argue that it was the 345 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: not only was it this kind of like single link 346 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 2: in terms of understanding global civilizations, but it was the 347 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 2: location of the Garden of Eden and a cultural connection 348 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: for various ancient civilizations. And then Atlantis also enters the 349 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: mix here, even though its origins I think most serious 350 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 2: scholars would agree is as a metaphor is as a 351 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: work of fiction. Various individuals have made arguments for the 352 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 2: discovery of a lost Atlantis or have gone all in 353 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: on the idea of Atlantis, and according to the komp, 354 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: a great deal of modern Atlantis mania stems from sixteenth 355 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: century enthusiasm for the concept, and a lot of this 356 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: enthusiasm coincided with excitement for the new world of the Americas. 357 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: So you know, again, you have a lot of energy, 358 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: like new lands are discovered, and then you have this 359 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: idea of Atlantis, and then people were proposing things like, well, 360 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: are the Americas Atlantis? Well no, but I guess you 361 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: can lean into that interpretation if you so desire. 362 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 3: You know, I was just thinking about the the sort 363 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: of common strain of thinking that connects conspiracy thinking with 364 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 3: with highly speculative lost civilization thinking, and like why you 365 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: would typically find both beliefs in the same brain, Like 366 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: why people are drawn to one if they're often if 367 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: they're drawn to the other. The idea of a lost 368 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: civilization that was vanished beneath the waves is a is 369 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 3: a literal, physical manifestation of the type of hidden knowledge 370 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: or covered up knowledge that that you know, guides conspiracy thinking. 371 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 3: Like if you're a you're a conspiracy thinking person, you 372 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: think that there is a there is a mechanism somehow 373 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 3: that explains all these disparate phenomena. But the but the 374 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: nature of that mechanism is being covered up. It is 375 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 3: hidden from you somehow. Usually it's a social mechanism. It's like, 376 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 3: you know, an agreement of people, or it's a you know, 377 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 3: an extraterrestrial mechanism there are aliens doing things or something 378 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: like that. The Lost Civilization under the Waves is kind 379 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: of like that. It explains history in a similar way, 380 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: but it has been literally physically covered up. 381 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, and again it goes back to this idea of 382 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: lo fi information to support an idea. Though interestingly enough, 383 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: like coming back to the idea of Mayan and Egyptian civilizations. 384 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: So obviously, like the Great Pyramids are are not lo 385 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: fi evidence. Likewise, you know, various megastructures in the Americas 386 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: are not lo fi evidence either. But if you're using 387 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: both of these as evidence for this third thing that 388 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 2: doesn't exist, then they do become kind of lo fi 389 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: because again, there is there is not a thing there 390 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: to prove there is not this lost civilization that connects 391 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: the two. 392 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 3: You might also, though, be coming at them from a 393 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 3: position of low information, in that you don't have a 394 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 3: lot of contextual knowledge about these these civilisations, and thus, 395 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 3: you know, you just see like similarly shaped buildings and 396 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 3: think like has to be a common source between them. 397 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, now I don't want to make it seem like, 398 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, just the idea of lost continents and lost 399 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: lands that aren't there, you know, are entirely rooted in 400 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 2: you know, conspiracy thinking and sort of non logical inquiry. 401 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: Because another example to touch on coming back to Lemuria 402 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: is this, this was an eighteenth century hypothesis to explain 403 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: similarities between species on distant continents. You know, we have 404 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: organisms that look like like this here, there are organisms 405 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 2: that look like this over here, and there's just too 406 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: much distance. How can we possibly explain this? And so 407 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: was this was one idea, Well, perhaps there is a 408 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: lost land mass, something is missing between these continents that 409 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: would explain these species being in both places. However, a 410 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 2: much better theory came around that of continental drift, but 411 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: once introduced to the idea of Lemuria ends up taking 412 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: on additional qualities to various interpreters. You know, it becomes 413 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: the cradle of human civilization in various occult world views 414 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: and in various fictions, and you often see this kind 415 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: of loop. I think with serious theories, feeding occult nonsense 416 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: and feeding fantasy, feeding you know, you know, things that 417 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: are you know, just purely enjoyable, and then that may 418 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: feedback into other things as well. So there are more examples, 419 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: to be sure, and we may come back to some 420 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 2: of these, but I think these examples nicely sum up 421 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: some of the associations and ideas here. It's kind of 422 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: a missing link concept, the lost place that could more 423 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 2: easily explain the world, and or a lost golden age. 424 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: And in this the concept is closely connected to the 425 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: con to various ideas of spiritual lands just beyond the 426 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: reach of mundane experience. So you know, there might be 427 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: like a like there's a shambala in Tibetan Buddhism. I 428 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: think there are various kingdoms and Russian folklore, you know, 429 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 2: almost like cities in the sky that are just beyond reach, 430 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 2: and you find these in various various form. I mean, 431 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: avalon is basically the idea, you know, this place that 432 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: is now beyond the reach of the mortal world. 433 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 3: So across the whole spectrum of fiction, myth, legend, and 434 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 3: obsolete scientific hypotheses, there have been ideas of lands that 435 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: were covered over by the waves or vanish beneath the 436 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 3: waters somehow. But now I want to talk about a 437 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: real and firmly established, provable example of lands that were 438 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: in quite recently sunk beneath the waters within the span 439 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: of human history. 440 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: Is it Atlantis? 441 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 3: It is not Atlantis, Okay. So I want to start 442 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 3: with an anecdote about a strange find, and a lot 443 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: of my details here are coming from an article published 444 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 3: in Archaeology Magazine by Jason Urbanas called Mapping a Vanished Landscape. 445 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: So in nineteen thirty one, one night in September, there 446 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 3: was a British fishing boat called the Kolinda which was 447 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: trawling in the North Sea off the eastern coast of England, 448 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: around the county of Norfolk. If you're not familiar with trawling, 449 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: it is a method of fishing where you drop a 450 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 3: large cup shaped net into the water and you pull 451 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: it behind the boat, and there's midwater trawling and bottom trawling. 452 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: With midwater trawling, you know, drag the net through the 453 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 3: middle of the water column. With bottom trawling you let 454 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: the net sink to the bottom, and the net has 455 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 3: weights that keep it stuck to the bottom and keep 456 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: the mouth of the net open, so the boat drags 457 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 3: the net along the seabed, sort of bulldozing the top 458 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: layer of sediment and scooping up whatever is in its 459 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 3: path large enough to get trapped in the net. The 460 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 3: Kolinda was trawling off the coast of Norfolk about twenty 461 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: five miles out at a place where the water was 462 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 3: roughly one hundred and twenty feet deep or about thirty 463 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: seven meters. After hauling up the net from a bottom troll, 464 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: a guy named Pilgrim Lockwood, who was the skipper of 465 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 3: the boat, noticed a big chunk of pete stuck in 466 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: the catch. And bottom trolling often creates a lot of 467 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: what's called bycatch. That term usually refers to unwonted animals 468 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 3: that you get in the net that are not part 469 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: of what you're fishing for. But also it just gets 470 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 3: a bunch of objects from the seafloor, because again it's 471 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 3: kind of like bulldozing the top layer of sediment as 472 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: it gets dragged along, So a lot of stuff ends 473 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 3: up in the net, and that stuff has to be discarded. Now, 474 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: this pete from the bottom, here's a really good word. 475 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 3: I came across I've seen sources that mentioned that these 476 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: chunks of pete pulled up from the ocean like this 477 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 3: were often referred to in England as moor logo r LG. 478 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: Nice. 479 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 3: Is there a band I didn't check that'd be a 480 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: good bog metal band name. 481 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I can see the album cover right now 482 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: with like a bog money on it. 483 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: So the skipper, Pilgrim Lockwood, he's got this chunk of 484 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: peat that's part of the you know, not what they're 485 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 3: fishing for. Obviously, he's stuck in the net, so he 486 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: gets it out. He starts to smash the pet up 487 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 3: with a shovel, but while he was doing that, he 488 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: found something rigid lodged inside and he actually said that 489 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 3: it sounded when his shovel hit this object. He said 490 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: it sounded like it was clanging against metal. It was 491 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: not a rock. He pulled it out and what he 492 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: found was a sharp instrument about eight and a half 493 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 3: inches or twenty two centimeters in length, with a pointed 494 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 3: tip at one end and barbs or teeth running most 495 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 3: of the way down its length, like some kind of weapon. 496 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: And it was a weapon. This is not a case 497 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 3: where you know it was actually some deep sea organism 498 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: that you know, was mistaken for a human artifact. This 499 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: was an artifact. This was technology. It was ancient technology, 500 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: and this artifact came to be known as the Klinda harpoon. 501 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: So experts from the British Museum studied the artifact and 502 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 3: they determined that it was the tip of a fishing 503 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: sphere from the Mesolithic period or the Middle stone Age, 504 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: which would have been somewhere between ten thousand and four 505 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: thousand BCE. It's an intriguing looking weapon. So it's got 506 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 3: the sharp end, it's got the saw teeth, but it's 507 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 3: also got these ridges sort of gashed in it along 508 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: the opposite end from the tip. 509 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 2: You know, it does remind me a little bit of 510 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: the fabled weapon of coculon the oh oh, you know 511 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: that was supposed to be in some cases like barbed 512 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: like like the barb of a sting ray. Yeah. Though, 513 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: of course, to your point, clearly, this is this is 514 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: not a nature fact. This is an artifact. This is 515 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: something that that was carved and made through human craft 516 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: and ingenuity. 517 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely made by human hands. But that raises questions 518 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 3: how did this Stone Age weapon end up buried in 519 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: peat in the ocean more than twenty miles off the 520 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 3: coast of modern day Britain. Was it possible that ancient 521 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: hunter gatherers carried it out to sea that far on 522 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 3: a boat or a raft and then dropped it to 523 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: the bottom. At the time it was found, that seemed possible, 524 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 3: but not very likely. Today we know more about the 525 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: Klinda harpoon. According to the Norfolk Museums, the harpoon tip 526 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: was made from the antler of a red deer that's 527 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 3: the species service Elaphus, and it has been radiocarbon dated 528 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: to about eleven, seven hundred and ninety years ago, mentioned 529 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 3: in the Archaeology magazine article as another strange fact. A 530 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: year after the Klinda harpoon was discovered, scientists analyzed the 531 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: pollen contained in the peat or the moor log from 532 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: around where the spear tip was discovered, and they found 533 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 3: something bizarre. Even though the peat was more than one 534 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: hundred feet under the water, it had been formed in 535 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: a fresh water context lakes and rivers and top side bogs, 536 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: not floors. So the person carrying the Colinda harpoon al 537 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: those thousands of years ago had not been a sea goer, 538 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: but an earthwalker possibly fishing in a river. And this 539 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: isn't the only Stone Age human artifact recovered from the 540 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: bottom of the North Sea. We can come back to that, 541 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: but I want to move on to something else, because 542 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 3: the Colinda Harpoon was not the first indication that there 543 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: was something odd about the sea to the east of 544 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 3: Great Britain. I would now like to read a passage 545 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 3: from a book called Submerged Forests, published in nineteen thirteen 546 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: by the British geologist Clement Reid. Clement Reid writes, quote, 547 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: most of our seaside places of resort lie at the 548 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 3: mouths of small valleys, which originally gave the fishermen easy 549 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: access to the shore and later on provided fairly level 550 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 3: sites for building. At such places, the fishermen will tell 551 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 3: you of black, peaty earth with hazel nuts, and often 552 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 3: with tree stumps still rooted in the soil, seen between 553 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 3: tide marks when the overlying sea sand has been cleared 554 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 3: away by some storm or unusually persistent wind. If one 555 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 3: is fortunate enough to be on the spot when such 556 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: a patch is uncovered, this submerged forest is found to 557 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 3: extend right down to the level of the lowest tides. 558 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 3: The trees are often well grown oaks, though more commonly 559 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: they turn out to be merely brushwood of hazel, sallow 560 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 3: and alder, mingled with other swamp plants such as the 561 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 3: rhizomes of osmuda. These submerged forests, or quote Noah's woods 562 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: as they are called locally, have attracted attention from early times, 563 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: all the more so owing to the existence of an 564 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 3: uneasy feeling that though, like most other geological phenomena, they 565 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 3: were popularly explained by Noah's deluge, it was difficult thus 566 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 3: to account for trees rooted in their original soil and 567 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 3: yet now found well below the level of high tide. 568 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: And ooh, thinking about the submerged forests, it gives me 569 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 3: a spooky feeling. So at the lowest level of the tide, 570 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 3: when when the water goes back farthest, even all the 571 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 3: way down to that level, you will sometimes find, especially 572 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: if there has been maybe a violent storm that has 573 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 3: shifted the sediment around and pushed sand out of the way, 574 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 3: you will find uncovered tree stumps, still rooted apparently in 575 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 3: their original position. Trees can't grow in the salt water, 576 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 3: so what was happening there? 577 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is enticing. And it does remind 578 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: me though that something we've discussed in the past and 579 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: the show that you know, for most of human history, 580 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: we didn't have a high resolution understanding of the world 581 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: beneath the waves, and so a lot of it was 582 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: based on guesswork, and there were a lot of ideas 583 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: about cities and forests beneath the sea, and like this 584 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: general idea that anything that you sort we see in 585 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 2: Western discourse, that anything that exists in the surface world 586 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: would have an analog beneath the water. So you have 587 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: a lion up here, well, you have a sea lion 588 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: under there. You have a horse up here, you have 589 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: a sea horse beneath the way. 590 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you have people up here, you have maror 591 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,919 Speaker 3: people down there. 592 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. So like there, you know, you have that 593 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 2: huge category. You have these you know, accounts of great 594 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 2: floods and so forth. So there's a lot of there's 595 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: a lot of like background mythology and observational data to 596 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: feed into any kind of discovery like this. 597 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: So how do you explain these submerged forests? In this work? 598 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 3: Clement Read goes on to document and make all kinds 599 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: of observations about them, but he reached a strange but 600 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 3: unavoidable conclusion. Sea levels were not constant, and the sea 601 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 3: had to be higher now than it was in the past, 602 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 3: much higher now than it was in the past, meaning 603 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 3: that much of what was once the relatively shallow North 604 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 3: Sea had actually been not a sea but a vast 605 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 3: alluvial plain the hidden lowlands of ages past, and these 606 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 3: lands were most recently covered with trees. There are still 607 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 3: places today where when the tide is at its lowest 608 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 3: you can find indications that there used to be forests 609 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 3: on lands that are now covered by the North Sea, 610 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 3: and of course recently enough for remains of tree trunks 611 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 3: and stumps to still be preserved there. One commonly cited 612 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 3: example is a place called pet Level Pett pet Level 613 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: Beach in Sussex, where the remains of a forest can 614 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 3: still be seen at low tide with indications of oak trees. 615 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: Elm U and Beach Rob. I've got some pictures for 616 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 3: you to look at. Both these pictures here are from 617 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 3: pet But another example that I came across is from 618 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 3: the remains of a submerged forest that is still fully submerged. 619 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 3: So this appeared in the media within the last decade. 620 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: I was reading from an article in BBC News Norfolk 621 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: and its attached video segment. This was from twenty fifteen 622 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 3: and it was called Ancient underwater Forests discovered off Norfolk 623 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 3: Coast and the report says that it was documented by 624 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 3: a couple of research divers named Rob Spray and Dawn Watson. 625 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 3: This was after a major storm had shifted sediments in 626 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 3: an underwater region off the north Norfolk coast. So just 627 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 3: like Clement Reid was saying, you know, it's especially after 628 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 3: there's been some violent event, maybe a big storm moves 629 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 3: the sediment around and uncovers things. In an interview for 630 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 3: this news segment, Don Watson, one of the divers, describes 631 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 3: coming across this region by accident. She said she had 632 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 3: been swimming for a while, she was almost out of 633 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 3: her air supply towards the end of a dive when 634 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 3: she came across an enormous mass on the seafloor. She 635 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 3: says it was quote almost a standing wave of black 636 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 3: stuff in front of me. It took me a while 637 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 3: to work out what it was and it was just 638 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 3: wood shaped like a wave. So she says at first 639 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 3: she thought it was a shipwreck, maybe it looked like 640 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 3: the hull of a boat, but then she realized it 641 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 3: was actually a huge hunk of unprocessed solid wood, not 642 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 3: the planks of a wooden ship's hull, but the trunk 643 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 3: of a tree laying down horizontally. And the divers, after 644 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 3: examining this location, say that it seems to be the 645 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 3: remains of an ancient forest, probably primarily oak trees, lying horizontal. 646 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 3: So the trees appear to have been knocked flat by 647 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: some event, you know, long ago. They speculate, possibly outwashed 648 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 3: from a glacier, but we don't know for sure. And 649 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 3: when you see the footage in this video segment, it's 650 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 3: amazing how much in some ways it still looks like 651 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 3: a tree trunk. You can even see what looked like, 652 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 3: you know, knots in the wood, or maybe a trunk wound, 653 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 3: little holes in the trunk which have now charmingly been 654 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 3: inhabited by starfish and crabs. I attached to a screen 655 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 3: shop for you to look at, and you can see 656 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 3: crabs getting down in the little Heidi holes. 657 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: Oh nice, Yeah, there they are. 658 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 3: And the divers in this interview emphasized that they almost 659 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 3: missed it. It is pure luck that the forest was 660 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 3: exposed by the violence of a recent storm and that 661 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 3: they just happened to come across it at the end 662 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 3: of a dive. But they also point out an interesting 663 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 3: thing about marine biology, just about under sea life. As 664 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 3: soon as this buried timber from thousands of years ago 665 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 3: was exposed, sea organisms flooded in, just like with In fact, 666 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 3: we've done episodes on this in the past, like with shipwrecks, 667 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 3: you know, that come to resemble in some ways the 668 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 3: habitat dynamics of coral reefs. A hard surface at the 669 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 3: bottom of the ocean quickly becomes a teeming habitat. Bottom 670 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 3: dwelling organisms can build a whole world around a solid floor. 671 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 3: So maybe smaller organism like the hard surface that they 672 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 3: can attach to, or they like little nooks and crannies 673 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: and pieces of shelter, they come in, they inhabit it. 674 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 3: Then bigger organisms come in to eat them, and it 675 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 3: creates this whole ecosystem. Oh and another thing I've got 676 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 3: for you to look at here, rob I took a 677 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 3: screenshot of part of this ancient submerged forest. It's just 678 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 3: got starfish all over it, which we know from our 679 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 3: recent headlessness episodes the starfish, they're not without a head, 680 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 3: they are all head. So we're just seeing like dozens 681 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 3: of heads all smushing into each other here on this 682 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 3: ancient tree trunk. So you put all this together, these 683 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: ancient human artifacts, miles and miles off the east coast 684 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 3: of Britain, oak forest preserved on the bottom of the sea, 685 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 3: so that we can still see the stumps and crabs 686 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 3: can make a home in the wood. What does all 687 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 3: of that point to. Well, today's scientists have firmly established 688 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 3: what explains it all. This is not a highly speculative theory. 689 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 3: This is clearly what's the case. It is all evidence 690 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 3: of an ancient land mass known as Doggerland. So what 691 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 3: was Doggerland? Doggerland was an area of what used to 692 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 3: be dry land during the peak of the last Ice Age, 693 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 3: when much of the world's water was locked up in 694 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 3: polar glaciers during the peak of the last Ice Age, 695 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 3: and this land is now submerged beneath the sea. It 696 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 3: was a large stretch of low lying earth, mostly flat 697 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 3: alluvial plains, extending north from the Netherlands in Germany, connecting 698 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 3: Great Britain to the rest of continental Europe and at 699 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 3: the eastern end, Doggerlands seem to have gone up against 700 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 3: what is today Jutland or you know, the Denmark peninsula. 701 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 2: Wow, this is impressive. You included an illustration here showing 702 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 2: like what this would have looked like when not an 703 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 2: illustration of map, and it is quite impressive, like essentially 704 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 2: like a thick land bridge connecting, like you said, to 705 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 2: mainland Europe. 706 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 3: Right, So, at the time Great Britain was not an 707 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 3: island but a peninsula. It was connected to the rest 708 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 3: of Europe by land. So not all sunken lands are 709 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 3: misinterpretations of ancient writings or pseudoscience or pseudohistory. There are 710 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 3: actually sunken lands that played a significant role in ancient ecosystems, 711 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 3: in how life developed on ancient continents, and were in 712 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 3: some cases occupied by humans. And now, despite the difficulty 713 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 3: of trying to do things like archaeology in areas that 714 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 3: are now underneath the sea, there's a lot we can 715 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 3: know about them. So in the rest of this series 716 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 3: we're going to talk more about dogger Land, what happened 717 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: to it, what we know about it, and more of 718 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 3: the sunken lands of planet Earth. 719 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, so who knows what we'll get into and who 720 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 2: knows what will emerge from the deep darkness of the 721 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 2: ocean or various lakes and rivers in the episode or 722 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 2: episode ahead. All right, We're gonna ahead and close this 723 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 2: episode out, though we'll be back on Thursday. Just a 724 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 2: reminder once more, that's stuff to blow your mind. Is 725 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 2: primarily a science podcast with new episodes new core episodes 726 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do listener mail. On Mondays, 727 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 2: we do we tend to do a short form artifact 728 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 2: or monster fact episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we 729 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a 730 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: weird movie on Weird House Cinema. If you follow us 731 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 2: on social media, check out those feeds because we've our 732 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 2: social media team has been putting out a little bits 733 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,879 Speaker 2: of content to let you know what the latest episode is, 734 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 2: and that includes some neat little video stuff in there. 735 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 2: If you if you are on Instagram and you don't 736 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 2: follow us, we are stb ym podcast there, so give 737 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 2: us a follow. We're trying to build up our followers 738 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 2: after we lost access to our old account, and yeah, 739 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 2: what else do you have? 740 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 3: Joe, I can't think of anything else we lost access to. 741 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 2: It's like a lost civilization. It's an Atlantis that's sunk 742 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 2: beneath the waves. I think it has like an episode 743 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 2: on airships, or maybe it's the Herzog interview are right 744 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 2: up there at the top, and then it's at some 745 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 2: point after that that accounts sunk beneath the waves whoopsie, 746 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 2: never to be reclaimed. 747 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 748 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 749 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 750 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 751 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 752 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 753 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 754 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 755 00:43:45,920 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.