Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,
Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. Yes, I know it's Saturday, but we're here
Speaker 1: to offer you our listeners a special audio only version
Speaker 1: of a new weekly video series called Crypto I r L.
Speaker 1: That's I r L like in Real Life, and it's
Speaker 1: hosted by friends of the show, Katie Greifeld and Tim Stenovic.
Speaker 1: This is episode eight of Crypto I r L. If
Speaker 1: you want the full video experience, head over to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com, slash qt or check it out on YouTube. So, Katie,
Speaker 1: anything going on in the world of crypto over the
Speaker 1: last week. There's a life altering event in the world
Speaker 1: of crypto this past week. You're talking about f t X.
Speaker 1: It's bankruptcy. I am huge, it is huge. Well, we
Speaker 1: got Bloomberg TV for all the breaking news. But we
Speaker 1: want to talk about crime, and it's not necessarily crime
Speaker 1: associated with the downfall of f t X. Innocent until
Speaker 1: proven guilty, it is being investigated, but a different type
Speaker 1: of crime when it comes to crypto, specifically bitcoin and
Speaker 1: crime and whether or not bitcoin is actually good for
Speaker 1: crime and whether it needs to be for thinking about
Speaker 1: money laundering. Bitcoin has been closely associated with crime since
Speaker 1: pretty much the beginning. In the early days, it was
Speaker 1: the currency of choice on the dark wet, used in
Speaker 1: drug deals, and even a murder for higher plot. In
Speaker 1: more recent years, it's been what happens have demanded when
Speaker 1: they've held pipelines, hospital systems, and met packing plants hostage,
Speaker 1: And then there's been the hacks. October two is on
Speaker 1: track to see more crypto stolen and hacks than any
Speaker 1: other month this year is on pace to be a
Speaker 1: record according to chain analysis. But his bitcoin actually good
Speaker 1: for crime? Since all transactions are public on the blockchain,
Speaker 1: everyone can see bitcoin move on the blockchain, and governments
Speaker 1: and other organizations are getting better at recovering stolen bitcoin. Plus,
Speaker 1: it's not actually that easy to launder bitcoin to turn
Speaker 1: lots of it into real, usable money. This raises an
Speaker 1: important question. If bitcoin isn't good at crime, then how
Speaker 1: can it live up to its promise as a stateless
Speaker 1: currency that could allow people in impressed areas to transact
Speaker 1: with one another without a regulator seeing what they're up to.
Speaker 1: Joe wasn't all of the odd lots podcast. We're not
Speaker 1: going to get into the f t X collapse, but
Speaker 1: you wrote back in February that it's time for bitcoin
Speaker 1: and crypto in general to get better at crime, and
Speaker 1: we're talking about a different type of crime that f
Speaker 1: TX is being investigated for, potentially more along the lines
Speaker 1: of money laundering. So way out your case for us, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the core arguments that like bitcoiners
Speaker 1: make is that it's like separation of money and state right,
Speaker 1: and that it's a sort of form of money that
Speaker 1: doesn't rely on the government, it doesn't rely on traditional
Speaker 1: banking system, etcetera. And when I wrote the piece, it
Speaker 1: was if you were called like during the Canadian trucking
Speaker 1: protests and there was that big convoy and sitting aside
Speaker 1: what one's view of the protest work, which I think
Speaker 1: is like kind of irrelevant to the question. The point is,
Speaker 1: if there's going to be a moment where people needed
Speaker 1: a form of money that could like they could transact
Speaker 1: without censorship, that was it. And it didn't really work
Speaker 1: for that. They were able to like very easily track
Speaker 1: the transactions. They were able to like freeze wallets from
Speaker 1: like interacting with banks, so It's like, if bitcoin is
Speaker 1: going to live up to its promise of being a
Speaker 1: means of transaction that is separate from the states, separate
Speaker 1: from the financial institutions, I don't think it's there yet
Speaker 1: in terms of whether it's privacy or obfuscation or things
Speaker 1: like that. So you're essentially saying that if bitcoin is
Speaker 1: to live up to its promise of being this stateless currency,
Speaker 1: something that could help and oppressed people, yeah, then it
Speaker 1: actually needs to be something that would also be good
Speaker 1: for criminals. I think that, yeah, that would be the
Speaker 1: implicated because again, like what's what's a criminal in one
Speaker 1: country one city could just be a protest or somewhere else.
Speaker 1: So to some extent, like this distinction is going to
Speaker 1: be very like vagable, like yeah, some places like protest
Speaker 1: is crime, someplace free speeches crime. And so the point
Speaker 1: is that for it to like yeah, fulfill its mission,
Speaker 1: then on some level there has to be a way
Speaker 1: to transact with it without the state being able to say,
Speaker 1: you got these coins, and now these coins that they
Speaker 1: ever go to an exchange, if they ever go to
Speaker 1: like a fiat off ramp, they'll be frozen. What is
Speaker 1: the point then, I think part of the reason I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about this column that you wrote for I
Speaker 1: don't know, eight nine months is that it kind of
Speaker 1: made me think that crime is really subjective. Crime to
Speaker 1: one person, to one government, is not a crime to
Speaker 1: another government. Yeah, right, like there are all there are.
Speaker 1: There are certain categories of crimes that everyone would find
Speaker 1: to be like absolutely absolutely, but there are other yeah,
Speaker 1: in different situations, like you know, sending someone or selling
Speaker 1: a copy of the Bible might be a crime in
Speaker 1: some countries, or a different religious text or any other
Speaker 1: sort of like protest or whatever it is. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Like, how would you even begin to
Speaker 1: conceive of a currency that would work for what we
Speaker 1: would call like legitimate crime or legitimate dissidents within a
Speaker 1: country if it didn't work for things that we would
Speaker 1: considered to be reprehensible. But it works to a certain extent,
Speaker 1: And that's what it seems like at least because we
Speaker 1: are seeing still ransomware attacks that are you know, essentially
Speaker 1: say pay us x bitcoin else. Yeah, although even even
Speaker 1: ransomware attacks, there's a pretty big loss of market share
Speaker 1: by bigcoin that we've seen to like some of the
Speaker 1: privacy coins like I think like if you look around
Speaker 1: like a narrow which is a much smaller, less liquid,
Speaker 1: less market. Kept point is still popular among ransomware in
Speaker 1: tax and part because of this reason. It's like has
Speaker 1: privacy built into it from like ground up. Wait, so
Speaker 1: if you're a criminal and you want to do some crime,
Speaker 1: which is never suggest but I do think that it
Speaker 1: speaks to again like ransomware is really bad. So this
Speaker 1: is not about that. The point is like, well, then
Speaker 1: if if it doesn't work for these, then what I
Speaker 1: like to sort of like freedom, sort of like outside
Speaker 1: the state, outside the financial instant tuitions use cases that
Speaker 1: it does work for. Because the point that I see
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, they say it's like no one can
Speaker 1: block a bitcoin transaction, no one can censor it. But
Speaker 1: isn't it a defactive form of censorship if an entity
Speaker 1: can say these wallets can no longer move to an exchange,
Speaker 1: And I think that's an important sort of set up
Speaker 1: there that you can do pack and get bitcoin in exchange.
Speaker 1: It's just you can't really do anything with the bitcoin
Speaker 1: that you write. And you know, there's all kind of
Speaker 1: like train analysis is getting better and better, so it
Speaker 1: gets it becomes easier to like connect an individual to
Speaker 1: a wallet and so forth, and like law enforcement and
Speaker 1: private software companies are getting really good at this. But
Speaker 1: if there's a point where it's like really hard to
Speaker 1: disassociate a coin from a human name, from someone that
Speaker 1: is known to officials, then you start to, I think,
Speaker 1: lose some of the promise of the currency. Anything really well,
Speaker 1: that's that's it. It's a whole different episode the Philosophy Show.
Speaker 1: A delight. Thank you for having that. I'd love to
Speaker 1: be back. Beth Bisbee from Analysis, Sugit Raman from TRM Labs.
Speaker 1: It's good to have you both here with us. How
Speaker 1: are you great? Thanks for having us. What do you
Speaker 1: think of the crime scene? It's great, very realistic. It's
Speaker 1: like when you investigate a crypto in the digital world.
Speaker 1: This is exactly what it's like with all the coins,
Speaker 1: all the coins, the yellow you know, we're going for
Speaker 1: something that's really authentic. So that's some good feedback. Um, Hey, Beth,
Speaker 1: I want to start with you just give us an
Speaker 1: idea of the most shocking crime you've ever seen committed
Speaker 1: with crypto. So if I go back to my days
Speaker 1: when I was with the Drug enforce and Administration, Um,
Speaker 1: it was with drug traffickers and anywhere from drug trafficking
Speaker 1: with money laundering using crypto for drug cartels or your
Speaker 1: running the mill, individuals that were down in their parents basement, um,
Speaker 1: selling drugs on the internet. So those are shocking in
Speaker 1: the in the themselves and like how the individuals actually
Speaker 1: like benefited from it and leveraging crypto for that. When
Speaker 1: I think about drugs and I think about bitcoin, and
Speaker 1: I think about them both together, I think about silk road,
Speaker 1: Like is that the sort of stuff that we're talking about? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so kind of both, right, So the very first really
Speaker 1: play of drugs and crypto is silk road. Right, that
Speaker 1: was one of the most innovative spaces for somebody to
Speaker 1: be like how do I get this onto the black
Speaker 1: market without being detected by law enforcement? And then this
Speaker 1: was the generation of leveraging tour and the digital realm
Speaker 1: of what payment system was, which was crypto, and that's
Speaker 1: what created silk road. So for the traditional sense of
Speaker 1: the digital aspect for drug trafficking, yes, that would be
Speaker 1: what it is. However, um, anytime you have a type
Speaker 1: of crime, you can leverage crypto for that. So drug
Speaker 1: trafficking and the traditional sense, where you have the actual
Speaker 1: bulk movement of large qs of drugs um individuals can
Speaker 1: still accept payment with that through crypto suggets. Same question
Speaker 1: was shock and crime using Bicklin, They weren't necessarily shocking
Speaker 1: to me, because criminals often go where the sort of
Speaker 1: technology is. But the first time I was really struck
Speaker 1: by how interesting crypto really could be was when I
Speaker 1: read the indictments charging those Russian intelligence officers with interfering
Speaker 1: in the elections in because if you read those indictments,
Speaker 1: you'll see that intelligence officers were using crypto to buy
Speaker 1: servers within the United States to try to sort of
Speaker 1: you know, obscure their tracks and use that to basically
Speaker 1: purchase the infrastructure that they then used to launch the
Speaker 1: hacks into the DNC emails and all that, and even
Speaker 1: hosted the website that you know, sort of hosted all
Speaker 1: that information through the payment of crypto. So when I
Speaker 1: was in a senior role the Justice Department, that's the
Speaker 1: first time I realized, Wow, I mean, crime is very important,
Speaker 1: and all the stuff we're doing on sort of dark
Speaker 1: webs really important. But there's a foreign intelligence component to this.
Speaker 1: There's a defending democracy component to this, but ultimately those
Speaker 1: individuals were indicted. They were indicted, and the allegations are
Speaker 1: in the indictment right, and in the in the indictment
Speaker 1: you see the evidence of them using what was it,
Speaker 1: bitcoin correct, various types of crypto. So the question, well,
Speaker 1: we'll keep the question a bitcoin for now and then
Speaker 1: take it out to other types of crypto. But does
Speaker 1: it does that mean that it is or is not
Speaker 1: an effective means to essentially commit crime with? So it
Speaker 1: you know, it can be traced, right. This is something
Speaker 1: that criminals often don't realize is that the bitcoin network
Speaker 1: itself is quite traceable, and folks like my team at
Speaker 1: Tierra Labs BETS team of chain analysis have become very
Speaker 1: good at tracing those payments. So it's just dumb criminals
Speaker 1: at this point then, because I feel like at least
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I spend too much time in
Speaker 1: my own bubble, but I feel like it's pretty well
Speaker 1: known that you can track things on the blockchain by now. Well,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people maybe don't realize that.
Speaker 1: The other thing is it still takes time. Right, You've
Speaker 1: got technology like mixers and other types of technology that
Speaker 1: will help you sort of you know, mix up the
Speaker 1: transactions a little bit. Um. Even that capability is something
Speaker 1: law enforcement can see through using the right and the
Speaker 1: effective tools. But there's a lot of crime out there
Speaker 1: and there's limited resources for law enforcement. This special audio
Speaker 1: only episode of Crypto I r L will be right
Speaker 1: back with more from Katie Greifeld and Tim Stanovic. If
Speaker 1: you want the full video experience, head to Bloomberg dot
Speaker 1: com slash qt Okay. So we talked about shock, Let's
Speaker 1: talk about scale because when I think about Silk Road, Uh,
Speaker 1: that was a long time ago. Where does the state
Speaker 1: of crime using crypto stand right now? So if you
Speaker 1: look past like Silk Road, that was one marketplace. One
Speaker 1: Silk Road was taken down. It kind of like did
Speaker 1: this whackable type of thing where it dispersed and criminals
Speaker 1: were like, oh, that's a really ingenious idea in order
Speaker 1: for me to actually do my criminal activities. So you
Speaker 1: see this mold that then is being expanded within that.
Speaker 1: But if you go past, just like darknet markets and
Speaker 1: drug trafficking or even um the aspects of child exploitation
Speaker 1: sites that are also being leveraged on that, um, the
Speaker 1: other type of crime is not necessarily financially driven. So
Speaker 1: we've seen individuals that have taken advantage of the Bitcoin
Speaker 1: blockchain and um have been able to put messaging within
Speaker 1: the transactions so that it's encrypted, and either's bot nets
Speaker 1: that then crawl the block blockchain in order to decrypt
Speaker 1: that to then infortrate different aspects. So what we saw
Speaker 1: with US was a bunch of crypto dracking that was
Speaker 1: actually occurring. So rather than just seeing the transaction that
Speaker 1: was occurring on a financial aspect, this is now being
Speaker 1: deployed for a cyber component as well. I means something
Speaker 1: we noticed just a few weeks ago is ices is
Speaker 1: trying to raise funds through the use of n f
Speaker 1: T s completely novel application of the technology. The technology
Speaker 1: is amazing, it's great, but elicit actors can also use
Speaker 1: it in novel ways that are actually pretty concerning. How
Speaker 1: are they trying to do that? So basically, you know,
Speaker 1: you create sort of an n f T and use
Speaker 1: that as a means of collecting funds. And so our
Speaker 1: team at TRM was able to identify that in advance
Speaker 1: and essentially notify you know, law enforcement and has since
Speaker 1: been taken down. It doesn't look like, uh, you know
Speaker 1: they had actually mobilized the n f T, yet they
Speaker 1: were basically doing the preparatory work. I assume those n
Speaker 1: f T s weren't like I wish, But you you
Speaker 1: bring up actually my next question, which is like I
Speaker 1: actually just don't get how ISIS would do this with
Speaker 1: an n f T, Like, explain how this would work? Well, essentially,
Speaker 1: you would, you know, send funds to that n f T, right,
Speaker 1: you would use that digital representation to store value. And
Speaker 1: I mean that n f T would be not associated
Speaker 1: officially with a terrorist organization, correct, You wouldn't realize that
Speaker 1: at the time that you were sending it, though people
Speaker 1: in the know would know to send and it would
Speaker 1: evade detection. So you're essentially setting up a bank account
Speaker 1: that is unlinked to any entity in order to raise
Speaker 1: funds for terrorists. Right, Essentially would be receiving funds in
Speaker 1: a digital manner that's not tied to any particular KYC
Speaker 1: information right now, your customer, know your customer, and you
Speaker 1: would then use that and sort of move it off,
Speaker 1: you know, move it to other chains or other areas
Speaker 1: and then try to turn it into cash. So to
Speaker 1: that point, I feel like ISIS wouldn't have been using
Speaker 1: n f t s. I don't know three four years ago.
Speaker 1: I know you both have been involved in the space
Speaker 1: for a long time, Beth, I know that you've been
Speaker 1: looking at, you know, illicit activities using crypto since we've
Speaker 1: touched on some of this. But tell me how the
Speaker 1: use case has evolved since then? Has it gotten more creative?
Speaker 1: How has it changed? Oh, it's definitely more creative. So
Speaker 1: I like to always think back, like back in the
Speaker 1: good old days with bitclin, because it's no longer the
Speaker 1: good old days, where like the technology has advanced and
Speaker 1: all of these different aspects of cryptocurrency have popped up.
Speaker 1: So you have n f t s, you now have
Speaker 1: all of the defied toekens are available, and the platforms
Speaker 1: that are operating in that manner that it's hard to
Speaker 1: keep up with all of that. So not only are
Speaker 1: you having individuals that are still in the bitcoin realm,
Speaker 1: but they're now transitioning into the DeFi space. And UM
Speaker 1: there's so many advancements with that with blockchains on top
Speaker 1: of other blockchains and um just being able to understand
Speaker 1: what that technology represents as well as how criminals are
Speaker 1: using that technology. For what it does not necessarily represent, right,
Speaker 1: and to me, that's the evolution that I will always continue.
Speaker 1: Um and being able to understand how it's being leveraged
Speaker 1: is one of the most um interesting things for the
Speaker 1: evolution of what cryptocurrency is. Is it kind of easy
Speaker 1: to make money as a criminal using crypto? I would
Speaker 1: say there are ways to take advantage of the systems
Speaker 1: for sure. So you have platforms now where you can
Speaker 1: stake funds, right, and you can stake that with criminal
Speaker 1: funds and so like you actually are earning money interest
Speaker 1: on all of these different things that are actually illicitly earned.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if what you heard from Joe Wisenthal makes
Speaker 1: sense that this stuff in order for it to actually
Speaker 1: serve its promise as stateless currency and help people who
Speaker 1: are oppressed, it has to become better at crime. Because
Speaker 1: what you guys do TRM a at analysis, like you
Speaker 1: track this stuff something that we know can be tracked now,
Speaker 1: but people have this idea that it was untrackable. Well, look,
Speaker 1: I think privacy is very important, right, and so you
Speaker 1: know at t RM, for example, we don't touch personal
Speaker 1: sensitive data. It's all the blockchain information is publicly available,
Speaker 1: it's on a public blockchain, and you can trace it
Speaker 1: over time, which is what Joe was saying, is why
Speaker 1: it's not good for crime. Right. But you know, just
Speaker 1: because something isn't necessarily good for crime doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a bad thing, right. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of positive use cases for for crypto generally, or
Speaker 1: for distributed ledger technology, which is what all of the
Speaker 1: stuff is based on. That. You know, often people are
Speaker 1: are overlooking, right, I mean think about you know, the
Speaker 1: last time you try to and fund so if you've
Speaker 1: got relatives and other parts of the world, you know,
Speaker 1: in the traditional banking system, it takes days. There's fees everywhere,
Speaker 1: and it takes forever, cause a lot of money, and
Speaker 1: it cost a lot of money. And with crypto and
Speaker 1: you need a bank account on both sides, if you
Speaker 1: were a criminal, would you use crypto or would you
Speaker 1: put the cash in a suitcase and sort of try
Speaker 1: to travel around that way? So can I give you
Speaker 1: my honest answers? I am not a criminal. This is
Speaker 1: a brain exercise, though it requires us to suspend reality.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, cash is still king when it comes
Speaker 1: to illicit activity, right, crypto is certainly a means of
Speaker 1: doing illegal things, but there are aspects that are more traceable,
Speaker 1: but there are aspects that make it more obfuscatable, like
Speaker 1: mixers and other kinds of technology. So you know, I
Speaker 1: certainly wouldn't be in the business of advice and criminals
Speaker 1: and what to do or what not to do. Best.
Speaker 1: Students talked a lot about state actors, and I'm wondering
Speaker 1: in your work if you have any data that shows
Speaker 1: to what extent the crime is being committed by state
Speaker 1: sponsored actors as by rogue individuals with no connection to
Speaker 1: a state. Yeah, So what we were able to identify
Speaker 1: is that for nation state actors there, it's over four
Speaker 1: d million dollars that we have been able to tie
Speaker 1: to UM North Korea for instance. Right. However, if you
Speaker 1: look at just individual elicita actors within that UM, although
Speaker 1: the hacks are very large, so six hundred million dollars
Speaker 1: at a time for a hack, right, it makes and
Speaker 1: grabs attention for headlines. However, what is not being on
Speaker 1: look at our individuals that are still soliciting UM illicit means,
Speaker 1: but they're doing it in a larger, smaller scale, but
Speaker 1: a higher transaction rate, so that actually supersedes the amount
Speaker 1: that's actually being moved on the elicit scale. For that,
Speaker 1: that's really interesting, and I swear I'm just curious. So
Speaker 1: if you were committing a crime, it sounds like just
Speaker 1: a series of smaller transactions makes a lot more sense
Speaker 1: in any type of movement for financial me that is
Speaker 1: the best way, right, so um, being so in a
Speaker 1: traditional financial aspect, right, there's reporting requirements in order to
Speaker 1: for transactions that hit a banking system, right and so um,
Speaker 1: and those are the suspicious activity reports that financial institutions
Speaker 1: and money service businesses are actually supposed to report. So
Speaker 1: if you're underneath that threshold, like you're not going to
Speaker 1: be able to be reported on as easily ten thousand
Speaker 1: dollars for funds that are going on a lot of specifics.
Speaker 1: This special audio only episode of Crypto I r L
Speaker 1: will be right back with more from Katie Greifeld and
Speaker 1: Tim Stenovic. If you want the full video experience, head
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com slash qt. You know, in all seriousness, um,
Speaker 1: all this talk of state actors kind of has me
Speaker 1: think about whether or not all of this is actually
Speaker 1: a good development or not and I'm wondering. You know,
Speaker 1: North Korea recently launched a missile over Japan and sent
Speaker 1: you know, shock ways throughout the world, and they do
Speaker 1: this every once in a while. And I'm wondering, student,
Speaker 1: if you think North Korea would be as powerful as
Speaker 1: it is today and as much of a menace to
Speaker 1: the rest of the world if there was no such
Speaker 1: thing as crypto. Yeah, I think you can strip the
Speaker 1: crypto conversation out of that, because North Korea has been
Speaker 1: engaging in this kind of aligned cyber activity for years.
Speaker 1: They tried to steal I think it was a billion
Speaker 1: dollars from the Bank of Bangladesh a few years ago,
Speaker 1: but basically hacking into the Federal Reserve New York's account
Speaker 1: that the Bank of Bangladesh was using and siphon that
Speaker 1: money out. Nothing to do with crypto, right, It was
Speaker 1: just a cyber hack. So crypto certainly makes it, you know,
Speaker 1: a more interesting conversation because there are certain things that
Speaker 1: nation state actors can do that they couldn't do more,
Speaker 1: you know, as easily in a in a purely kind
Speaker 1: of analog world. Do you guys like crypto? I mean,
Speaker 1: do you see you guys look at the worst side
Speaker 1: of crypto when you zoom out from that, I mean,
Speaker 1: do you see this is a net positive or what
Speaker 1: are your feelings? All Right, It's definitely a net positive.
Speaker 1: Like it's innovation at its finest, and it's really fascinating
Speaker 1: to be able to watch um being able to step
Speaker 1: back and see that individuals that maybe in underprivileged areas
Speaker 1: that have access to financial means through crypto is fantastic
Speaker 1: and just being able to leverage that in a way
Speaker 1: that makes it where almost everybody can be on the
Speaker 1: same playing field, to me, is one of the most
Speaker 1: rewarding things within this space. Would you agree with Stugent
Speaker 1: that we have to strip crypto out of the conversation there,
Speaker 1: because even if there were no crypto, these sanctioned countries
Speaker 1: would still be able to access funds to fund whatever
Speaker 1: they're doing. Yeah, And like I would actually say that
Speaker 1: the crypto aspect is actually a positive thing with it.
Speaker 1: And I say that because it is transparent for us
Speaker 1: to be able to actually track those funds and actually
Speaker 1: see what is going on within those different countries, which
Speaker 1: is if you took the crypto out of it, like completely,
Speaker 1: we would lose insight into what's actually going on, and
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be able to tie that back to US.
Speaker 1: Does it stugent undermine American foreign policy at all? So look,
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting question. Obviously, certain countries are trying
Speaker 1: to use crypto to kind of evade the international, you know,
Speaker 1: global financial system, which is very much US led, or
Speaker 1: at least led by kind of Western countries and Western values.
Speaker 1: But here's an interesting kind of other side to it.
Speaker 1: You talk about stable coins, right, which are basically tied
Speaker 1: to the U S. Doller. I could see a world
Speaker 1: in which if there was more expansional stable coins, that
Speaker 1: actually promotes the growth of the US dollar into areas
Speaker 1: where it maybe doesn't exist now. So, you know, crypto
Speaker 1: again cuts both ways. You've got to really understand it
Speaker 1: and then you can make good policy. Who's your favorite
Speaker 1: TV cop? Like, who do you model yourself after? Well? I, uh,
Speaker 1: I was not a cop. I was a prosecutor. So
Speaker 1: if you watch Law and Order, yes, I always a
Speaker 1: nified with the lawyers. But I did like the guys
Speaker 1: in Law and Order. You gotta be honest, it's for you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a rist of Hart Days character. I like a
Speaker 1: lot Olivia Benson. There is Beth. What about you? So mine?
Speaker 1: It's not a TV show, but it would be clares
Speaker 1: from Silence of the Lambs. Yeah, do you identify with
Speaker 1: the Yeah? So my whole dream job right was to
Speaker 1: actually be a profiler, and that's what I wanted to do,
Speaker 1: and then I got sidetracked with Crypto. So here I
Speaker 1: am Raman, Beth Bisbee. Good to see you guys. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. It's it kind of seems like you're
Speaker 1: ready for a life of crime. I don't know. After
Speaker 1: listening to this episode, we mapped a pretty good blueprint,
Speaker 1: but not using bitcoin. Maybe ma Narrow definitely a mixer
Speaker 1: and I would keep it under ten grant. I thought
Speaker 1: you were a grizzled old cop with a heart of gold.
Speaker 1: Things change. I want to see these episodes of Crypto
Speaker 1: I r L in video. Check them out on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quicktake at Bloomberg dot com, slash qt, or find Katie
Speaker 1: and Tim Over on YouTube. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a
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