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Speaker 1: Ah beaut Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: softwarep dot Com on time on Target. We have a

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Speaker 1: guest coming on that's been in the works for several years.

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Speaker 1: I think at this point you wanted to have Evan

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Speaker 1: Barlow on. Yeah, I've I've been. I've asked him off

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Speaker 1: and on and just trying to make our schedule work.

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Speaker 1: And um, you know, he was nice enough to let

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Speaker 1: me interview him when the company that he's the chairman

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Speaker 1: of was in uh Nigeria fighting Boko haram uh or

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Speaker 1: South African military contractors working with Nigerian military forces under

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Speaker 1: contracts by that country's government. Um. So, we we published

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Speaker 1: quite a bit on on SOFTWAREP about that at the time.

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Speaker 1: And uh Evan has released actually so two books. He um.

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Speaker 1: He published his memoir UM many years ago through a

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Speaker 1: fairly obscure South African UM publisher and that book is

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Speaker 1: super hard to find. Mind. Yeah, I see on Amazon

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Speaker 1: it's all like used for over a hundred dollars and

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Speaker 1: he's got several if you got if you got it

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Speaker 1: for a hundred dollars. You did pretty well. I mean

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Speaker 1: I think it was going for like six hundred bucks

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Speaker 1: a copy on Amazon. I found a copy in a

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Speaker 1: big bookstore in London, UM back around two thousand and ten,

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Speaker 1: and I probably paid like fifty bucks for it or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But it's worth it and it was

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Speaker 1: a great book. But Eben has since um revised it

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Speaker 1: and and added additional information to the book and re

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Speaker 1: released it UM. So it's called UM against all odds.

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Speaker 1: Is it rereleased though? Or is he rereleasing because I

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Speaker 1: was looking on Amazon and I still don't see what

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a revised and updated edition of his

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Speaker 1: memoir that has been rereleased, and you should be able

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Speaker 1: to get it at you know, much more reasonable price

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Speaker 1: than I just I don't see it on Amazon yet

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Speaker 1: because I was looking before we started recording. Well, we'll

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Speaker 1: ask him about it. I think it might. I think

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Speaker 1: it might be in the process of being really released.

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Speaker 1: I saw the cover though on his On His Blood

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Speaker 1: and he uh. And then he also put out a

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Speaker 1: book called Composite Warfare, which is sort of like a handbook,

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Speaker 1: like a manual to um counterinsurgency warfare on the African continent,

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Speaker 1: and you know that's Evans bread and Butter. I guess

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Speaker 1: he has tons of experience over there, so we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about all of that with him. Yeah, looking forward to it,

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Speaker 1: um So, I guess first order a business North Korea.

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Speaker 1: The the deal that we had with them, it appears

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Speaker 1: that it may very well fall through because on their end,

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Speaker 1: they're saying that our military relations with South Korea or

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Speaker 1: it's the military exercises that they find antagonists. And as

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Speaker 1: as we were talking about before we recorded, this is

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Speaker 1: nothing new. We've been right, and I mean this is

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Speaker 1: why I was also cautioning before that there were past

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Speaker 1: deals like this made with North Korea. There's one in

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Speaker 1: like ninety two, there's one in the actually there are

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Speaker 1: a couple in the two thousands, and North Korea did

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Speaker 1: not fulfill their side of the bargain. Um We we've

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Speaker 1: tryed to make all sorts of compromises. I mean, Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Carter withdrew nuclear weapons from South Korea, hoping that North

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Speaker 1: Korea would um would reciprocate and you know, halt their

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Speaker 1: nuclear program. Obviously this stuff doesn't happen, um So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily surprising Kim Jong un did this charm offensive.

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Speaker 1: Now again, I'm still hopeful maybe something will come through.

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Speaker 1: But it's one of those things like you know, Ron

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Speaker 1: Reagan would say trust but verify, um. And you know

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Speaker 1: I was I was trolling a little bit. You could

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Speaker 1: say I was trolling. You know people who are quick

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Speaker 1: to credit Donald Trump for for that deal between North

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Speaker 1: and South Korea, and they say this is Trump's success.

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Speaker 1: He takes all the credit for it. His unconventional, unorthodox

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Speaker 1: style led to this, And I was like, well, maybe,

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Speaker 1: I mean, he probably deserves a little bit of credit,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not so much. Well, now that the whole

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Speaker 1: deal has fallen, it seems to be falling apart. Now

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Speaker 1: the question is if the deal does completely fall apart,

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Speaker 1: is that also Donald Trump's fa Yeah, And I don't

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Speaker 1: think it is. I don't don't. I don't blame him

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Speaker 1: for it. Um. I think it has more to do

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Speaker 1: with North Korea. UM. But I mean that's I just

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Speaker 1: struggled to understand the logic that some people use. They

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Speaker 1: want it to be all about the American president, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of times it isn't. What about North Korea

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Speaker 1: finally meeting with South Korea? Would you give some credit

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Speaker 1: to President Trump for that. I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I we talked about it on a previous podcast,

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it has that's definitely a

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Speaker 1: positive step. It is a positive step. I think it

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Speaker 1: has more to do with South Korea, though, then, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think you have to credit South Korea and North

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Speaker 1: Korea for for coming together on that and how much

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Speaker 1: of it was brokered by the United States. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we played uh an ancillary role, you know, in the background,

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Speaker 1: um So, but I don't. I don't know. I'm not

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Speaker 1: so quick to point fingers, you know, either in a

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Speaker 1: good way or a bad way. I guess on this one, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's a fair assessment. Uh. Looking at

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Speaker 1: some emails here sent to soft warep dot radio software

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Speaker 1: dot com, we have some good ones. Actually get to

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Speaker 1: this one first, um Ian and Jack. I love the

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Speaker 1: podcast and the guests you bring on. Recently, I saw

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Speaker 1: in an Air Force Times article how the Air Force

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Speaker 1: is buying new uniforms. To quote the article, the transition

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Speaker 1: could take place over a one to four year period.

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Speaker 1: The slide set it short that compares the costs of

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Speaker 1: the two, three and four year transition periods said the

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Speaker 1: transition could cost as much as four hundred fifty million dollars. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So he writes, who decides to spend the four fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars because the current uniform isn't good enough? How

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Speaker 1: could we as voters or how can our leaders stop

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Speaker 1: this type of wasteful spending? As I understand the situation

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Speaker 1: has happened with the other branches as well. Since sincerely,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Meriden If I'm saying that right and on my

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Speaker 1: glass on uh Merdian, I believe, but yeah, uh jeez,

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Speaker 1: I I personally I think there should be a massive

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Speaker 1: inspector general investigation into this whole uniform to bacle a

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Speaker 1: cross all of D O D. The amount of money

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Speaker 1: that is, I mean it is fraud, waste and abuse

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Speaker 1: on a scale is difficult to imagine. I'm sure we're

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Speaker 1: well over a billion dollars so that everyone can have

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Speaker 1: their own stupid little uniform. Million dollars for a uniform. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're halfway there. Yeah, and that's just for one branch.

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Speaker 1: And that's they already went from the normal b d

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Speaker 1: U uh camouflage pattern to the current air force They

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Speaker 1: have that weird like digital tiger stripe uniform and now

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Speaker 1: they're going to go to what the army uses. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I believe the motivation, and you can fact check

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Speaker 1: me on this, I'm not a percent sure. I think

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Speaker 1: the army pattern, that multi cam looking pattern is something

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Speaker 1: that D O D owned the copyright too, or the

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Speaker 1: patent too, So I don't think they have to pay

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Speaker 1: royalties to anyone. I think that's kind of the backstory

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Speaker 1: on it. But you can go ahead and double check

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Speaker 1: um that suspicion. Um. I think it's a total disaster

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Speaker 1: what we've done with these uniforms, and they and they

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Speaker 1: not just this, but also they want to change the

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Speaker 1: class at uniforms every couple of years. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where it's like you have these officers come

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Speaker 1: in and they want to say, I left my mark

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Speaker 1: on the service. So I'm the guy that changed the uniform,

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Speaker 1: which is a weird thing to lead your mark on, right,

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Speaker 1: Like not, I mean, we have to change, we have

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Speaker 1: to evolve, but not all change is good change. Like

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Speaker 1: I guess to the point where like you're just changing

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Speaker 1: things for the sake of changing them. Is it to

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Speaker 1: make the force better or is it? So? Is it

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Speaker 1: so it's a bullet on your officer evaluation report. You know,

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Speaker 1: you want to you want to leave things better than

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Speaker 1: you left. Is this you know, is spending four fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars on a new uniform really necessary? Yeah? Not?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, what what could we be

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Speaker 1: doing with that money? I agree, I was gonna say

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Speaker 1: what what you're saying reminds me of you know, not

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Speaker 1: to harp on Trump since we just mentioned it. But

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Speaker 1: there's like those pictures how he always looks very proud

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Speaker 1: that he signed the new executive order, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of times like do we really need all these executive orders,

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Speaker 1: which certainly didn't start with him? Obama and and g

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Speaker 1: you know, George W. Bush signed a ton of executive orders.

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Speaker 1: There were executive orders being that goes way way back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's almost one of those things where I just

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Speaker 1: want to leave my mark and do I really need

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Speaker 1: you to leave you? Yeah? And executive orders is a

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Speaker 1: way for presidents to give that impression real or perceived

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Speaker 1: that they're doing something. Yeah, because the president can't pass legislation,

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Speaker 1: and it's like oftentimes, uh, Andrew Welkow said this before,

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Speaker 1: and I agree with him, Like I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to be doing anything like just stick to what we

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Speaker 1: have in the constitution. We don't need new legislation for everything.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with that philosophy. That's a very limited government. Guy.

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Speaker 1: Stop stop getting mad at our presidents because they play

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Speaker 1: golf or they go on vacation. Isn't that what we

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Speaker 1: want them to do? Like I would agree, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are things you know, coming to coming

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Speaker 1: to work, get your daily intelligence brief. You have some legislation,

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Speaker 1: and that's important to you. That's important to the country

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Speaker 1: that you're pushing forward. But do we really need every

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Speaker 1: busy body politician trying to cram some new policy, some

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Speaker 1: new regulation down our throats every day? Seven? Probably not

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Speaker 1: go play some golf. It's okay, it's all right. I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing you've seen Fair Night nine eleven. Right, Um, is

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Speaker 1: that the Michael Moore I know of it? I don't

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Speaker 1: believe do you remember the like phony outraged Bush that

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Speaker 1: like he was reading a novel, like he was reading

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Speaker 1: some small book to young kids. They came and whispered

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Speaker 1: in his ear, and like watching that, what the fund

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Speaker 1: did you want him to do? You wanted to panic

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Speaker 1: in front of all these little kids, like he remained

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Speaker 1: calm in the situation. He finished what his task was

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Speaker 1: and then he left. Yeah, this idea of that you

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Speaker 1: constantly need to be doing something and you want him

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Speaker 1: to you want him to make the information was the

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Speaker 1: information was still coming in sure, I mean, George W. Bush,

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Speaker 1: I think he needed to know a little bit more

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Speaker 1: before you can make a decision on things. I thought

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Speaker 1: he handled it well. I agree, I agree completely, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that reminds you as you were saying, like the

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Speaker 1: do you want them to be doing something every two seconds?

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Speaker 1: To be panicking? And no, we do not want our

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Speaker 1: leaders running around with their hair on fire. Absolutely not. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, I am not a fan of phony outrage.

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Speaker 1: Um all right, I like this one. This is from Ryan. Hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: big fan of the show. Hillary Clinton still gets brought

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Speaker 1: up constantly in the news cycle. I guess I'm not helping,

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Speaker 1: and inevitably, if Clinton is brought up, so is ben Ghazi.

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Speaker 1: My question is, why does no one ever talk about

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Speaker 1: Charlene Lamb. I get that Clinton was head of the

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Speaker 1: department that botched the situation, but I feel like there

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Speaker 1: were more directly responsible people that the entire country just

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Speaker 1: sort of gave a pass. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: And then I like this part also Ian last show,

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Speaker 1: and this is two shows ago. At this point, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned how you're often neck and neck with the Bernie

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Speaker 1: Sanders podcast. I actually didn't know he had one until

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Speaker 1: you brought it up. I have a theory for you.

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Speaker 1: I think if you go back and review your ratings,

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Speaker 1: you'll find that there is a direct one to one

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Speaker 1: correlation showing that you always beat Bernie when you talk

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Speaker 1: about the Big Bang and give the people what they want. Ian,

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Speaker 1: the ratings won't lie, you know. So we didn't say

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Speaker 1: it on the show, but you were like, episode five hundred,

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Speaker 1: we should get shipped faced. How about get ship faced

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Speaker 1: like me? You Brandon and watch the Big Bang and

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Speaker 1: Chung Yang like a reaction to just sit here drinking

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. Or I was thinking, I gotta try

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Speaker 1: to book Dennis Rodbin. Would you be up for that?

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Speaker 1: If if I was able to get Dennis Rodman on

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Speaker 1: the show, buddy, Uh, that would be a rating I think. Um,

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Speaker 1: I mean the entertainment value is there. I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't doubt that. Uh, Okay, go for it. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: try to I'll try to book Dennis Rodman. I was

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Speaker 1: actually after I saw this email, like it would it

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Speaker 1: be possible, And I went to his website and there

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Speaker 1: is an email for bookings and all that, So I

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Speaker 1: will try. I think it'd be amazing. Anyway, back to

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Speaker 1: the first part of the email, Yeah, Charlie Lamb being

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Speaker 1: kind of uh. And also Pat Kennedy, who was in

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Speaker 1: charge of security for the State Department at the time,

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Speaker 1: and actually Donald Trump fired him because he was a

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Speaker 1: political appointee. So a couple of months after Trump was

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Speaker 1: sworn in, Uh, Mr Kennedy was no more. Um. And

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Speaker 1: but that's the point. I mean, the thing with Benghazi

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Speaker 1: was everyone wanted to blame Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama,

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Speaker 1: and of course they are in charge and they have responsibility,

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Speaker 1: and there's nothing they can do to dodge that. You're

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Speaker 1: in charge, you're responsible. You know, if something's wrong, you

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Speaker 1: fix it. Um. But people made it sound as if

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Speaker 1: you know, Hillary or Obama, we're just kind of like

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Speaker 1: cackling and laughing, like ha ha ha ha. Americans are dying.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it's pretty clear from what happened that

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Speaker 1: night that no one really understood what was happening initially,

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Speaker 1: and Obama did tell leon Panetta that night when he

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Speaker 1: really when they realized the place that the consulate was

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Speaker 1: under attack, he said, do it every you can to

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Speaker 1: get those people out of there. And leon Panetta, I

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Speaker 1: don't think took it seriously enough initially, And then the

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Speaker 1: more reports came in, they started to realize how dire

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Speaker 1: it was, and they and then they started to scramble

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Speaker 1: um military assets to Libya in the surrounding area. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, the reality is that our government

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Speaker 1: is run by you know, these midd level bureaucrats. It's

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Speaker 1: not like the president does not make every little decision. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, Obama and even Hillary, I don't think we're

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Speaker 1: the ones that were like, no security for our consulate

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Speaker 1: in Benghazi. I mean, I don't. It wouldn't help them politically,

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Speaker 1: and I haven't seen any evidence of that. I mean, so,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, he has a point, but it's the

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Speaker 1: same thing with Trump. Everything that goes right or everything

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Speaker 1: that goes wrong, we typically just blamed the president and

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Speaker 1: there's all these other people in between. And in Hillary's case,

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Speaker 1: she was running for presidents. She at the time she

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Speaker 1: was the Secretary of State. Yeah, but I was just

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Speaker 1: saying Charley and Lamb didn't have asked Races to be

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Speaker 1: the next president, so it's not really much of a

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Speaker 1: political move. Sure, And and Pat Kennedy is also somebody

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Speaker 1: who's just always in the background. I mean, he's not

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Speaker 1: a public personality that you hear about alright, So I

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Speaker 1: think that answers that. Um, but keep your emails coming

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Speaker 1: to soft Rep dot Radio at soft rep dot com. Uh.

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Speaker 1: With that, I guess we'll get over to Van Barlow.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for this interview, probably the first as far

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Speaker 1: as I could see, because I was looking at, you know,

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Speaker 1: what I could find before um we bring him on.

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Speaker 1: I think this might be like the first in depth

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Speaker 1: interview on a podcast he's done. I haven't seen anything.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I think he's done a few, um, but

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Speaker 1: very rarely does uh does he speak out like this.

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Speaker 1: So it's definitely a unique opportunity to pick his brain

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Speaker 1: a bit because he just has a ton of experience.

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Speaker 1: I saw a um I think it was like DBC.

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Speaker 1: I saw a YouTube video that he did. Um, not

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Speaker 1: not him, but it was like something whiting the men

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Speaker 1: who worked in Africa in this capacity, but there's not

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Speaker 1: a whole lot. Oh, there's a lot of speculation of

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Speaker 1: what he's done. Yeah, there's not a lot of primary

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Speaker 1: source material out there, which is why, UM, it's great

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Speaker 1: that Evan wrote his memoir. UM. A lot of the

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Speaker 1: lies have just been repeated so many times in the

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Speaker 1: media that even people who are good, honest people trying

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Speaker 1: to do really solid work, they end up repeating the

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Speaker 1: lives because when they go and do their research, that's

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Speaker 1: just what you find. And it's just so pervasive in

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Speaker 1: the media. UM. You know, some of the myths about

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Speaker 1: UM about executive outcomes that they end up in actually

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Speaker 1: what should be credible UM academic works. But I'm sure

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Speaker 1: he'll tell us all about that. I mean, Evan has

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Speaker 1: been you know, knee deep in uh in the disinformation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, well let's get to him. Joining us is

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Speaker 1: Evan Barlow, former lieutenant colonel in the South African Defense

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Speaker 1: Force and the founder of the private military company Executive Outcomes.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of several books on African national security

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Speaker 1: that includes Executive Outcomes Against All Odds, which I should

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Speaker 1: ask you first question if you don't mind, UM, we

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Speaker 1: were discussing this before we write on is is Executive

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Speaker 1: Outcomes officially rereleased or are you in the process of

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Speaker 1: rereleasing it? Um? I was an issue. The book was

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Speaker 1: published by a publisher known as Gallagher Um and the

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Speaker 1: owner of this company passed away last year and his

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Speaker 1: widow sort of handed back the rights to the book

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Speaker 1: to me and said I can do with it what

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Speaker 1: I wanted. Peter still passed away. Yeah, I didn't know that, um,

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Speaker 1: And so I found a publisher, the same publisher that

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Speaker 1: did my previous book on composite warfare. And the book

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Speaker 1: was officially released in a small city called Bloemfontein on

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Speaker 1: Friday evening. So it's it's out now on the market.

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Speaker 1: Got you because I was looking on Amazon and I

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Speaker 1: still just see like the original release and and I

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Speaker 1: just figured out, asked, because I'm sure after this interview

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Speaker 1: people want to pick it up. Yeah, I know that

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Speaker 1: Amazon are sometimes slow when it comes to South African

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Speaker 1: authors and books we write. There's a company. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I can mention them on air, but I

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Speaker 1: know they're sending Jack a book to read and review anyway,

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Speaker 1: thank you. It's a company called Bush War Books and

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Speaker 1: they actually are the guys who've really got the first

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Speaker 1: copies of this book and have actually sold quite a

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Speaker 1: lot since the release. So people can probably go directly

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Speaker 1: to bush War Books and purchase a copy from them. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and maybe the ship you know, worldwide, so it shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be a problem. Excellent. Yeah, it's a great opportunity. Like

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have the previous Galago edition of the book, um,

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Speaker 1: and subsequently, you know, that book would selle for like

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Speaker 1: five dollars and things like that on Amazon. So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that people have the opportunity to procure or a

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Speaker 1: copy of your book now that it's been re released

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Speaker 1: at a more manageable price point. Yeah. I think it's

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Speaker 1: more manageable, Jack, But it contains a heck of a

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Speaker 1: lot more information. Um. You know, it was only as

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Speaker 1: I was doing the sort of rewrite of the book

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Speaker 1: in a sense that a lot of the dirty tricks

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Speaker 1: against us were exposed by the people who actually committed

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Speaker 1: these deeds, and so I suddenly found myself with a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of information that I never had when I

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Speaker 1: initially wrote the book. Um. Plus when I initially wrote,

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Speaker 1: Peter edited out a lot of stuff for reasons of

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Speaker 1: his own and you know that I was able to

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Speaker 1: put all that back in there. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: a better book. It's a better read. It's a much

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Speaker 1: much heftier book than the previous one. I am really

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Speaker 1: looking forward to reading it, and you know, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to. You know, I have some questions I

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Speaker 1: wrote out this morning for you, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: your background. You know. If that's a care for people

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Speaker 1: who are not familiar, um, you know, they probably should

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Speaker 1: be if they're listening to this podcast. UM. But otherwise, UM,

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Speaker 1: we start getting into it. Yeah, I have no problem

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Speaker 1: with that. UM. I guess one of the misconceptions I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people have about you is that

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Speaker 1: they think that you served in South African special Forces

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Speaker 1: and the Wreckies or something like this, but actually your

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Speaker 1: background is really in the intelligence field. I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if you can know it all, Jack, I was commissioned

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Speaker 1: and badged as a sapper, yes. UM. I was then

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Speaker 1: sent to a cinder Stone infantry unit where I served

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Speaker 1: as a second in command of their reconnaissance win UM.

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Speaker 1: I was then pushed into intelligence for approximately two or

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Speaker 1: three years, basically in in COVID intelligence collection and after

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Speaker 1: that I went to for one of a better word,

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Speaker 1: an associated wing of Special Forces known as a Civil

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Speaker 1: Cooperation Bureau, But that wasn't an intelligence outfit, per say.

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Speaker 1: I ran what was known as Region six, and our

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Speaker 1: mission was to identify locally to neutralize enemies of the state.

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Speaker 1: Um So, yes there was some intelligence involved, but it

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Speaker 1: extended way beyond just intelligence gathering. It was a paramilitary operation.

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Speaker 1: Really well, it was one of those sort of operations

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Speaker 1: when they call you in and tell you this is

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Speaker 1: what you're going to be doing. Your ego is suddenly

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Speaker 1: really almost gets out of control because you think someone

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Speaker 1: has noticed what you're doing. But the downside is that

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Speaker 1: you know that the thing was always if you are caught,

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Speaker 1: you never existed. Um So it wasn't really a paramilitary thing,

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Speaker 1: although it was a very COVID operation that was grown

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Speaker 1: within Special Forces. But having said that, I never said

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Speaker 1: it as a badged operator of Special cause I was

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Speaker 1: wondering if you could tell us a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about CCB UM, because I thought ruined I read it

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Speaker 1: in your book. I mean, this is just a totally

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Speaker 1: fascinating story about how you were asked to resign your commission.

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Speaker 1: Essentially resigned from the military, and then you were brought

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Speaker 1: into this program, which in America and our our intelligence

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Speaker 1: establishment would call it nonofficial cover. That you were instructed

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Speaker 1: to start up a private commercial company to fund the

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Speaker 1: operations that you were to run. Yeah, that was that

403
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Speaker 1: was the mission given. Um. Of course, official cover still

404
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Speaker 1: exists because of the military attached is deployed, and it's

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Speaker 1: really I need the military attached is that can almost

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Speaker 1: talk to the hostile opposite numbers and really try and

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Speaker 1: get behind the mindset without overtly or covertly gathering intelligence. Um,

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Speaker 1: from our point of view, we had to be at

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Speaker 1: arm's length from all special forces and government operations, generate

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Speaker 1: our own income, recruit our own people, regardless of what

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Speaker 1: was going to be done, whether it be intelligence gathering

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Speaker 1: or sabotage or whatever. And hey, those people out of

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Speaker 1: the commercial entities that were set up to to provide

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Speaker 1: genuine non official cover, active cover. So it's completely deniable.

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Speaker 1: And you were U. Region six was the UK in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East, if I recall correctly, No, I was

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Speaker 1: the commander of what was known as Region five, which

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Speaker 1: was Europe in the Middle East. Yeah, gotcha, uh, I know,

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Speaker 1: you know, you probably some of it is probably still

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Speaker 1: sensitive because of the people that you worked with and recruited.

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Speaker 1: But can you talk a little bit about the type

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Speaker 1: of work that you used to do at that point. Well,

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Speaker 1: setting up Bridge in five was very difficult simply because

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Speaker 1: there was nothing, So I really got this barren piece

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Speaker 1: of land. UM, so I had to recruit guys, and

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Speaker 1: who are recruited were sappers I've actually known who understood

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Speaker 1: the elements of clandestine operations, demolitions, et cetera. And then

428
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: it would start off by, for example, you would be

429
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: given a target. UM. That target would then be subject

430
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: to UM a large amount of intelligence collection to verify

431
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: that the target was legitimate, and then actions would be

432
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: taken to neutralize the target, be that something such as

433
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: a disinformation campaign being run, bits of incriminating evidence left

434
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: at scenes, and that type of thing. So whatever the

435
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: state wanted done to neutralize that target, that was done.

436
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: We're your CCB has over the years become very controversial,

437
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: and you know, I've read another box. The claim is

438
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: that CCB got kind of out of control. I was

439
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: just wondering if um you had any thoughts on that,

440
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: on that program or looking back on it, if you

441
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: think that was the appropriate way to run an operation,

442
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: a covert operation, or does it perhaps need to be

443
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: more supervision or oversight on something like that. I think

444
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: most governments grown similar programs. I think the problem with

445
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: CCB was a region known as Region six. Region six

446
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: was brought to life because the South African Armed Forces

447
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: had no mandates according to the constitution to operate within

448
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: the boundaries of South Africa UM, and that was a

449
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: law enforcement responsibility. Region six was established to almost bridge

450
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: that gap between law enforcement and the armed forces. And

451
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: the type of people they brought into Region six, um,

452
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: we're not controlled. They almost became a law and to themselves.

453
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: And that was really because of no supervision and no

454
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: control and absolutely no leadership um, and started using this

455
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: region for personal gain um. And that is really what

456
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: compromised the CCB. At the end of the day, it

457
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: was no other region it did it except Region six.

458
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: So you know, from my point of view, and obviously

459
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: there's a lot I even knew about them, but I

460
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: actually hold Region six accountable for compromising the CCB and

461
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: resulting in its demise. And I guess this is an

462
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: interesting turning point to talk about the transition to the

463
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: private sector. And as I think I remember in your

464
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: memoir the dissolution, the dissolution of CCB and the way

465
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: that you left that program. I mean, it sounded almost

466
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: like you and some of the other gentlemen who are

467
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: a part of it were like driven to the side

468
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: of a road and told like, go way, we don't

469
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: need you anymore. Well, that's exactly what happened. You know,

470
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: we we as a country got to a crossroads in

471
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: terms of the political direction the country was going in.

472
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: Members of the previous government and sadly staff officers of

473
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: our armed forces lacked the moral fiber to actually come

474
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: clean and say, look, this is what's happening, and this

475
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: is why it's happening. Instead, they just shut us down.

476
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: For example, I was told two weeks after we'd been

477
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: shut down that we've been shut down. Um, and the

478
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: excuse was always there. We never knew how to contact you,

479
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: which was a lie, and we were basically left on

480
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: our own. You know, promises that were made under takings

481
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: that were given in terms of pension, none of that realized.

482
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: And after spending a lifetime in the armed forces, and

483
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: you suddenly kicked out the door you have to do

484
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,959
Speaker 1: something and do it pretty quickly. So what happened fortune

485
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: at least is that unbeknown to Special Forces, part of

486
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: my CCB cover was actually giving them some training in

487
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: covert operations UM. And that led to executive outcomes being

488
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: established in the first instance. And then secondly we started

489
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: training as executive outcomes members of the Dabas Diamond Corporation

490
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: in Botswana to set up a covit structure to infiltrate

491
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: and penetrate the illegal diamond syndicates. And that really led

492
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: from one to the next and that's how executive outcomes

493
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: just grew. But we had to do something, you know,

494
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: it was either rob a bank or use our skills. Yeah.

495
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand how

496
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: the kind of dire straates that a lot of people

497
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: found themselves in South Africa. You know, both black and white, um.

498
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: And you know that you can see of course by

499
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: the crime statistics in South Africa over the last couple

500
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: of decades. Yeah, I think you know, one one has

501
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: to really qualify this and say that in South Africa

502
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: we have white su are targets of crime and we

503
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: have black seer targets of crime, and both white and

504
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: black suffer equally from crime. A lot of it doesn't

505
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: make the headlines, but a lot of the crime that

506
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: we see manifesting itself is really because of people that

507
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: have almost lost hope and unemployed. But I need to

508
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: also add that outcrime, despite it being high, is not

509
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: unique in the world. A lot of countries have incredibly

510
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: high crime statistics. We just happened to be on the

511
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: radar of a lot of people at the moment. I

512
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: was wondering if you could tell us, because I think

513
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand, including myself. It's a

514
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: little fuzzy at times. The how does a private military

515
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: company get a contract and go into theater um? You know,

516
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: I'm referring in your case, you know that first big

517
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: job in Angola. Um. I was wondering if you could

518
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: walk us through how that came about, because I think

519
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people understand how a army gets deployed

520
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: abroad and they fight a war, and that's kind of

521
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: seen as above board. But then when it comes to

522
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: the world of private military companies, that gets a lot

523
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: of murky for people, and there's a lot of confusion

524
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: and hesitation about it. Okay, Well, we started off by

525
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: a period when I was approached by oil executives who

526
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: had got my name from a friend. Um, you had

527
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: a huge amount of oil drilling equipment stuck on a

528
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: harbor in northwestern Angola, and this harbor town was known

529
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: as say You Um. The initial mission was really to

530
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: provide straightforward security for say you Um so that the

531
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: oil recovery teams could come on, recover the equipment and

532
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: get it off that harbor. And the reason they needed

533
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: to do that is because when equipment standing on the harbor,

534
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: they were losing income but still being penalized by the

535
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: Angolan government. So this became a straightforward security task. Unfortunately, um,

536
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: the South African media picked it up, I mean, there's

537
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: nothing secret about it, but turned it into something it

538
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: wasn't and suddenly painted targets all over us. This resulted

539
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: in the oil executives going via the Angolan oil Paris

540
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: title known as Son and Gold, to the military and

541
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: asking them if we could get armed because as as

542
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: foreigners in that country, we weren't allowed to carry on.

543
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: So this was really a stick in a dog type

544
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: of security. Initially, the Angolan Army relented and started issuing weapons,

545
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: and the end result became a very very complex battle

546
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: which I referred to as the Battle for Sawyer. But

547
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: during that period, the Golden Army sat up and said,

548
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, if these so few guys can actually hold

549
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: off literally thousands of the enemy, we need them to

550
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: train us. And that resulted in the in the contract

551
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: to train their Golden Army. So you know, yes, the

552
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: whole world was screaming up and down about it. To me,

553
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: I look at who screams allowed us to know who

554
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: has very COVID interests in that conflict um And also

555
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: ironical that all the training their Goldens had been given

556
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: by foreign governments. It was all window dressing training. And

557
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: I think you and I have actually discussed before. Yeah, yeah, so,

558
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: And the mission from their Goldens was very clear. That

559
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: mission was train to brigade and help us to win

560
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: the war. That's really what what the mission was. And uh,

561
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: I should also mention Mr Van Heroden's book Four Ball

562
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: one Tracer has a pretty good account of you know,

563
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: the on the ground, the cold situation that unfolded. M

564
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: Real for out a very good book. Being up there

565
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: and being in the position he was, he kept a

566
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: very comprehensive, for want of a better word, war diary

567
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: as that some of the other guys and obviously you

568
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: know what what I discuss is from a much broader viewpoint.

569
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: They focused down on the tactics that took place. Um.

570
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: But you know, to me as a South African soldier

571
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: actually fought in Angola and fought against the Angolan army

572
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: up until the time that peace broke out um several

573
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: years later. To find ourselves they're having to train this army.

574
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: Was was a little bit of a mind game too

575
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: many of us until we started realizing what's really going

576
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: on and that the Angolden Army, for all its problems,

577
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: was actually not allowed to win the war. And at

578
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: the same token, nor were the rebels you need, actually

579
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: allowed to win the war. And when South Africa went in,

580
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: we were there as a smoke screen for other activities.

581
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: Could you explain those dynamics? Why why were both sides

582
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: not allowed to win the conflict? Well, in retrospect, I

583
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: think one can be a genius on a lot of things.

584
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: When we went to Angola, Unita controlled nine or claimed

585
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: they controlled of the territory. The angold in generals and

586
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: politicians were of the opinion that they actually lost the war,

587
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: and we became this almost a lifeline that was thrown

588
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: to them. First of all, we had to change the mindset,

589
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: so I'm first talking about the Engolden, and that was

590
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: to say to them, even if you think they controlled

591
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: of the territory, they don't because they cannot be spread

592
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: out over n of the territory. And it was almost

593
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: as our light bulb went on in their heads that

594
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: they suddenly realized they become the victims of both UNITA

595
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: and their own story is about two controlled what territory.

596
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: The second thing we had to say to them was

597
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: that doctrinely you are very unsound. You need to change

598
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: this doctrine if you really want to win the war.

599
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: So that on the Angolan military side, on the rebel side,

600
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: UNITA was supported not only by South Africa, but by

601
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: your country, the US, and by the French, by the Belgiums,

602
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: by the Germans and everyone, with billions and billions worth

603
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: of dollars worth of equipment going in and US fighting there,

604
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: all in order to create a state which and many

605
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: people are very unaware of this was going to become

606
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: a Maoist state because Savimbia was a Maoist and very

607
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: recently even unit To admitted that the transition from Maoism

608
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: to democracy is a very very difficult transition. So it's

609
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: not here say this is what they have admitted to

610
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: me that the irony of all of this was that

611
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: if everyone was supporting the rebels, including the South African

612
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: Defense Force, to actually affect a regime change there, why

613
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: couldn't that war be one? And how could five guys

614
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: go in um trying to brigade and a year and

615
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: a half later the entire enemies in ruins on the

616
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: battlefield and are pleading for a ceasefire. So that's that's

617
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: where I come from when I say no one was

618
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: allowed to win the war because and I think behind this,

619
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: there were too many foreign interests, of personal interests involved.

620
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: It was like when the South African contractors, when executive

621
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: outcomes came in that it kind of it was an

622
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: upset and upset the whatever arrangement, whatever had been negotiated

623
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: or understood on the battlefield, you guys kind of you know,

624
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: through a wrench in the works. Yeah, we did. But

625
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: I also think our approach was very different in that

626
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: we we revisited doctrine um and came to the realization

627
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: that you cannot win a war by believing in a

628
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: single center of gravity. Um. That changes and you have

629
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: to actually look a lot quier than the center of

630
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: gravity for a start, and then secondly to look at

631
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: where is the enemy getting his funding from, and if

632
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: we can deny his funding, we can bleed him into

633
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: bankruptcy on the battlefield while we are creating casualties within

634
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: his ranks. And then in itself became a major problem

635
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: for Unita. That was something that you talk about. You

636
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: make that point very clear in your in your work

637
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: also in cra Leone where people had this um. You know,

638
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: they said that there as if there's something wrong, that

639
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: executive outcomes went straight for the diamond fields and took

640
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: them over. And the point I think you were making

641
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: in the book was, well, that was the rebel source

642
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: of funding. Of course we weren't there to hit them

643
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: in the pocket book. Well, exactly, you can't only create

644
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: casualties on the battlefield and allow the enemy to maintain

645
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: a very powerful economic hold over you, because that's what

646
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: they had to hold over government. You have to deny

647
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: them their funding, which is why we believe that. You

648
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: have to look at what what I refer to as

649
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: a trinity of gravity, and one of those is how

650
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: does the enemy sustain himself. If we can remove that,

651
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: we can actually get him into a corner and then

652
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: we can actually annihilate him piecemeal on the battlefield, which

653
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: is what happened. You know, I asked the question Jack

654
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: the foreign planners, and you know, I'm not going to

655
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: mention which countries. They were told the government of Sierra

656
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: Leone it would take two months to recapture the Diamond field.

657
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: The very small combat team that was put together, commanded

658
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: by Rufe and Iden, took it into two days. Now,

659
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: how on earth is the possible? What a difference between

660
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: perception and reality? Yeah? Absolutely, And people need to understand that.

661
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: You know, you you cannot sit down and drink tea

662
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: with these people. You hit them, and you hit them

663
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: as hard as you can hit them. The other point,

664
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: at the same time, cut off their funding and as

665
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: you're going along, change the perception of the locals to

666
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: support you. Well, the other point I think you make

667
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: in your work is that you know, having peacekeepers is great,

668
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: but before you can keep the peace, you have to

669
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: make peace, and that involves, you know, the often dirty

670
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: business or grizzly business of war. Well, I the UN

671
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: is well aware of how I view them, Jack. I

672
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: have stood by time and time again and watched civilians

673
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: being slaughtered and done nothing. Time and time again. They

674
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: have watched rebels being re armed and done nothing about it.

675
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: And to me, that's not peacekeeping. UM. Peace keeping is

676
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: well first of all, as as you rightly pointed out,

677
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: you can only have peace if the shooting has ended. UM.

678
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: Number one, I haven't seen the UN peacekeepers rushing into

679
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: Syria to act as a buffer between the good guys

680
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: and the bad guys. I haven't seen that in um Olivia.

681
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: I haven't seen that in Somalia. I haven't seen that

682
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: in Suday, not since the Korean War. They're there, but

683
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: what are they doing? UM? So you know, to them,

684
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: it's a business as far as I'm concerned, And and

685
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: why kill the goose that lays the golden egg. As

686
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: long as they're they're they're all getting their money. Well

687
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: on that, And I was wondering if you could talk

688
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: about some of the material you had mentioned earlier, the

689
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: new material in your book about why you and why

690
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: executive outcomes were attacked so viciously by the press um

691
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: and continue to be. And I have a little anecdote

692
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: about that as well that that I can throw in there.

693
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: But I'd like to hear you know, your take on

694
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: the disinformation campaign. Again, you need to understand that. And

695
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: it's no different anywhere else in the world. But many

696
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: journalists are actually controlled by intelligence services and via intelligence

697
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: services punk the narrative government once to plant. South Africans

698
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: had been involved in Angola for quite a long time

699
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: and it had become a very very um bitter and

700
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: costly experience to some people because loved ones were lost

701
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: and we'd gone to war in Angola. It was an

702
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: undeclared war, yes, but there were a lot of payments

703
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: made with diamonds, a lot of undertakings is who will

704
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: take the oil once you need to in power? A

705
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: lot of weapons were supplied and a very good book

706
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: was recently published by a guy with a surname of

707
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: fun Fearing, which is called something to the effect of

708
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: arms apart ate and money or part don't money in

709
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: arms where South Africa was actually dealing with Red China

710
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: in those days very quietly trading military secrets with China

711
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: in exchange for weapons, and that supplying that to Unita,

712
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: you need to in turn, was paying for those weapons

713
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: in diamonds UM. And guess what, none of those diamonds

714
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: ever made it back into government coffers. So people took that.

715
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: There were very, very senior people that were involved in this,

716
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: and it extended way beyond just diamonds. We're looking at

717
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: ivory and ivory smuggling, we're looking at precious woods and hardwoods,

718
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: and then we're looking at who will get the spoils

719
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: of the oil once the war is over um. And

720
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: so of course we had to be stopped because you

721
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: need to well on this role. UM. It was a

722
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 1: very interesting case where a South African ship was apprehended

723
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: up in the Middle East, I think first in Aiden

724
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: and then in Yemen, claiming they've got weapons on board

725
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: and these weapons were bought by the yemen Ees. The

726
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: Yemenis denied it and they said it was actually destined

727
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: for Lebanon. The Lebanese denied it. That ship was actually

728
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: destined for Unita, for the harbor of Sawyer, which we

729
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: had taken UM and they were to be offloaded there

730
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: and in exchange for that, UNITA would have paid with

731
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: whatever we believe it would have been diamonds. Um So,

732
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: we had interfered hugely with economic interests, and we're not

733
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: talking about national economic interests, we're talking about personal economic interests.

734
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: I had a contract. I had a contract with the

735
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: Dabia's diamond mining company and in particular the Debswana in

736
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: Botswana which is the Botswana wind which is one of

737
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: our neighboring states, to train their people. It was very

738
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: interesting that the who are made in the media about

739
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: us being in Angola and the Swana canceled my contract.

740
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: The only irony is is they sent the cancelation to

741
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: me on telex on on fact simile um and when

742
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: I got the facts, the letter was dated, but the

743
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: facts came through in um So. When I questioned them,

744
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: they told me that they can't answer me. They're just

745
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: doing what they were told to do. Um So, of

746
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: course we interfered with with massive economic interests and we

747
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: had to be stopped at all costs. It's interesting that

748
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: this dynamic that you were a licensed South African private

749
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: military company, but at the same time there were these interests.

750
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: You know what you refer to, I mean it's clearly

751
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: or it sounds corruption. I have to call it what

752
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: it is because with the highest level bureaucrats personally enriching themselves,

753
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: what was there There was there also an element that

754
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: was in your corner that was pulling for EO and

755
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: supported what you were doing. Yeah, there was. It's good

756
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: that you mentioned we were a licensed company. We were

757
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: one of the first companies to actually be awarded a

758
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: license to operate and do what we were doing. Um.

759
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: And the irony is the media refused to publish that.

760
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: They said it's not in the public's interest. UM. So

761
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: that was never made known, and that resulted in them

762
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: continually saying that we are operating illegally and the government

763
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: must intervene and stop us. The government couldn't intervene to

764
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: stop us because they've given us a license and we

765
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: weren't committing crime. We were actually on a legitimate contract. UM.

766
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: So you know, the useful idiots in the media we

767
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: are jumping up and down. The other side of the

768
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: coin is that, yes, there were a lot of people

769
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: that were actually very positively disposed towards us. UM. Some

770
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: had to be coast into being well disposed towards us.

771
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: And I speak of people in the intelligence services. Um.

772
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: And and you know, if if you say an intelligence officer,

773
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: that was probably the first time I really became an

774
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: intelligence officer because I had to recruit people serving in

775
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: the intelligence services to tell me what ticks they are

776
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: so that we could come to them. Um. But we

777
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: had people who called us and say be careful and

778
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: side has been sent to wherever in Angara to shoot

779
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: down an aircraft or be very careful, they're planning to

780
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: put a bomb on your plane and that type of thing. So, yeah,

781
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: we had we had a lot of people rooting for us.

782
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 1: I was also wondering if you could tell us a

783
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: little bit about the quote unquote the mercenaries and the

784
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: men that actually went out there, and I mean, I

785
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: think it was a really extraordinary group of people that

786
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: have worked for you and executive outcomes and then later

787
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: on in Nigeria is well. I was wondering if you

788
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: could just tell us a little bit about who they

789
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: are as people. I think the press commonly sees these

790
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: guys is like the mad dogs of war, like watching

791
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: movies like The Wild Geese or something like this. But

792
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: if you could tell us about you know, who they

793
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: are as people. Yeah, So we really had a broad

794
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: spectrum of people, um, because you know, ultimately, despite what

795
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: our forefather's heritage was, we see ourselves as Africans, um.

796
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: And if we don't stop our problems, no one's going

797
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: to and we've witnessed that across the whole continent. But

798
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: good men. Yeah, and I I think you know you obviously,

799
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm always impressed by how um loyal and how highly

800
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: they speak of executive outcomes to this day, even all

801
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: these years later. Yeah, I think, you know, I'm very

802
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: fortunate in that sense. Um. But I think, like in

803
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: any company, you know, the it guys, they're bad guys.

804
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: We had some rotten apples as well, and we had

805
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: guys who were very bitter because their contracts were terminated

806
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: because we actually caught them doing things that weren't supposed

807
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: to be doing. Um. To me, I don't need people

808
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: like that because I have enough problems that might played anyway.

809
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: So the guys who stayed the majority of them, you know,

810
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: are still very loyal towards the company, and to me,

811
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 1: it's it's always been really an honor to have these

812
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: guys working for executive outcomes. And in later life with

813
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: Step still working with me, so you know, to me,

814
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm really happy about the guys I have around me.

815
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: I just want to interject real quick my own little story.

816
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: When I had interviewed you, just as Step was, it

817
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: was about the time that they were withdrawing from Nigeria,

818
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: and UM, we talked a little bit about the racial narrative.

819
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: And you know in the press they describe the contractors

820
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: as being these why South African, uh, you know, racists,

821
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: and you know we talked, we talked about that, and

822
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: I published the interview and what you had to say

823
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: about it and how you thought that was rather silly, um,

824
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: And it was amazing how maybe like twenty four hours

825
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: later after we published that, I believe it was, the

826
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: Guardian published this rebuttal and we're inciting all these sort

827
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: of anonymous sources like now once a racist, always a racist.

828
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: There South African white racist and a story and it

829
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: just struck me that the media seemed very afraid of something. Yeah,

830
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: there are, UM, and I think a lot of them

831
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: are very good reason to be afraid, because we're working

832
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 1: to find out who are those that really worked against us,

833
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: whether they domestic or beyond our orders. And we will

834
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: eventually find out. It might take a while. But you know,

835
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: coming back to this whole thing about South Africans being racist,

836
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: I have to tell you a funny story. I don't

837
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: know if I did. Um. I was promoted in several

838
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: African armies. I actually served as a major general. Um.

839
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: So we end up at the Nigerian Army School of

840
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: Infantry up in the northwest of Nigeria, and the commander

841
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: of the school is a is a brigadier general and

842
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: he's really taken aback that the paleface is there who

843
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: actually I ranks him. And he was very sort of

844
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: wary of us M because I went up with the

845
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: advanced party and that was a small group of I

846
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: think we were like ten guys and and in the

847
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: ten guys there were only two black guys. But we

848
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: needed to go and just make sure everything is in

849
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: place for the main force coming in. And eventually the

850
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: main force arrived and I went to him and I said,

851
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, General, please come with me to the airport.

852
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: We guests in your facility and I'd like, you know,

853
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: the guys to see you here at the airport to

854
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: welcome them. And on the way that he was very

855
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: quiet and withdrawn, and he didn't talk much, and I

856
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: could see he wasn't happy. And you know, when the

857
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: first guys got off, they just happened to be black guys,

858
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: and and the way we are with our guys, they

859
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: ran over, hugged me, asked me how I am good

860
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: to see you houses going and that, and I could

861
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 1: see this guy was like really puzzled at what's going on.

862
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: And on the way back to the base, him and

863
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: I were in the in the same vehicle, just the

864
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: two of us, and he said to me, you know,

865
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: I have a confession to make sitting what's that? General?

866
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: He said, I thought all South Africans were racists, all

867
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: the white South Africans were racists. So I said, general,

868
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, perceptions can be very dangerous. We thought all

869
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: Nigerians are criminals. And he had such a laugh and

870
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: he said, no point taken. You know, I understand, but yeah,

871
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the whole racial thing, and it's

872
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: it's easy for people to talk when they don't know

873
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: what's going on. But the units I served in were

874
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: mainly multi racial units. In other words, we had pale

875
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: faces and on bail faces. We never had problems. I

876
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: think a lot of the problems are really caused by

877
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: a political retric and media sensationalism because they want someone

878
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: to blame. And then that media sensational sensationalism is still

879
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: going on. We talked about it in a recent podcast

880
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: with you know people seeing things on Instagram with South

881
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: African military stuff and automatically tying into racist Well and also,

882
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of you know, players behind the scenes,

883
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the social media advertising that you know

884
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: happened um that turns out was purchased by a foreign entity,

885
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: by a Russian intelligence service UM to propagandize Americans, and

886
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: the bulk of it was about driving racial tension. Well,

887
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, if people, um, if there's no unity, you're

888
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: actually setting the stage for conflict. And then if you

889
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: take away people's hope and aspirations or give them them,

890
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: then you are really setting the scene for conflict. Um.

891
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: You know, I know what's going on as well. I am.

892
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that if someone's caught pushing fake news

893
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: on whether it be in the mainstream media or on

894
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: social media, there should be a penalty to pay for

895
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: that because all it does is in science, anger and

896
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: dissent and and and actually breeds hostility and we have

897
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: to stop that. If I could just interjective and how

898
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: do you stop that though? And then who's the arbiter for?

899
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,240
Speaker 1: Like what do you speak news? Well, it's very difficult.

900
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: I know I'm not a law enforcement guy. But if

901
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: if you publish something in we'll be able to trace

902
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: it back to you. And if we can do that,

903
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 1: you have to be able to accountable for what you

904
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: put out there. You can't just put out anything you

905
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: want to. I've seen photographs of the horrific acts in

906
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: South Africa that we're actually taken in a different country. Um.

907
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: To me, that's that's fake news. Propaganda takes not even

908
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: fake news is just a bloody light um. And people

909
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: like that should be acted against. But I suppose at

910
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: the end of the day, conflict is good for some business,

911
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: isn't it. It seems so unfortunately. And on that note,

912
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could, since it's a little

913
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: bit more recent, um, if you could detail a little bit.

914
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 1: I know, you know, we can't go super in depth.

915
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: There's so much we could talk about, um, but step

916
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: and what your men did in Nigeria and this was

917
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago. Now, um fighting Boco

918
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: Haram or working with the local partner forces to fight

919
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: Poco Haram. Yeah, look, Um, that wasn't our first job

920
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: that we did. It was the one that attracted probably

921
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: the most for one of the better word adverse at tension,

922
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: because you do a lot of advising and consulting behind

923
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: the scenes too. Yeah, we did. But we were also

924
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: involved in Uganda where we trained two special operations groups

925
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: and at that stage Uganda had this agreement to operate

926
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: into dr C Southern Sudan and to Central African Republic,

927
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 1: and we selected and trained two special operations groups. In fact,

928
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: the first group that was deployed, I deployed with him.

929
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: We were attached to the fourth Infantry Division based at

930
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 1: Nazara in southern Sudan. While the training was taking place,

931
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: I became sort of a division advisor fix it where

932
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: UKN type guy. And eventually they found out there was

933
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: a problem with one of the battalions in the d

934
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: r C, and the chief of staff asked whether I

935
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: would be willing to actually take over that battalion in

936
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: the in the DRC. Um So myself and the medic

937
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: one of my guys went with me, and I became

938
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: the command, you know, sort of a bit of a

939
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: step down in terms of position from the in a

940
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: sense being very involved in the division to now suddenly

941
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 1: finding myself at battalion level again. Um. But we got

942
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: along very well with those Ugandan troops, and obviously all

943
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: these problems stemmed back to doctrinal failures, which you cannot

944
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: point a finger at the troops. They were doing what

945
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: they were told or taught to do. Um. You know,

946
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: so on the ground we fixed a lot of the

947
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: what we've perceived as doctrine or failures, which was also

948
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: very interesting and it led to some interesting sort of

949
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: happenings in that area because there were these two pale

950
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: faces amongst all these Ugandan troops, and whenever the drclas

951
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 1: and officer arrived, we had to hide aways they couldn't

952
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: see us, which was really really fun. But eventually, when

953
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: when the special operations groups had been trained, the first

954
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: one was and I actually deployed with him into Central

955
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: Africa Republic where we did operations and we also discovered

956
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 1: the training and preparation of the group that ultimately invaded

957
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: Central Africa Republic known as Silica. Um. Of course, no

958
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: one believed us, and the whole world said that we

959
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: are trying to create a problem in order to um

960
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: extend our contract, which we thought was really stupid. Um.

961
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: You know, we have a job to do, and our

962
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: job is to end the conflict as quickly as possible,

963
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: not to see a drag on for as long as possible.

964
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: Be that as it may. We we came back from

965
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: Uganda because we created a lot of antagonism because of

966
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: foreign interests that we're going to be involved in the

967
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: Central African Republic. The Ugandans were threatened to get drid

968
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: of us, and if not, certain actions would be taken

969
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: against them, and I was in a mood to enter

970
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: into a one fight. Um you know what. Ultimately, governments

971
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: need to take some accountability for the decisions they make.

972
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: We came back to South Africa. I went to our

973
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: Department of International Relations and Cooperation, warned them about depending invasion.

974
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: We knew where the training was taking place, we knew

975
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: where the weapons deliveries were taking place. And they went

976
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: to the governments that were involved and those governments denied

977
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: it was happening. And two weeks later the invasion took place,

978
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: and sadly South African soldiers were killed there as well.

979
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: You know, who are up there, different mission, none of none,

980
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: thing to do with us, And that's a lot of

981
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: cutlast there's been very little written about that event. They

982
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: were there were South African paratroopers, weren't they. Yeah, there were,

983
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: and some special forces guys. Yeah. It's it's amazing how

984
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: that incident just kind of flies under the nose. At

985
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: least in the Western world and in people barely know

986
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: what happened, you know. To me, it's it's it's one

987
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: of those things. These were South African soldiers, whether they

988
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: were well trained or not well trained, whether they were

989
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: well equipped or not well equipped, they were still the

990
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: soldiers that represent my country, um, and I was really

991
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: angry about the fact that they had never been warned

992
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: or even just told. Looked there as a possibility some

993
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: mad white guy walked in here and said you're going

994
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: to be attacked, just check your defenses. At least that

995
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: message was never passed on. And yeah, the whole thing

996
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: was kept very very quiet for reasons known only to

997
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: those who kept it quiet. We also try to get

998
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: a message to president was easy. Who was the the

999
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: president of Central Africa Republic. But we were not allowed

1000
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: to get the message to him, so the message never

1001
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: got to him. So you were forced out of Uganda

1002
00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: at that point. And then eventually they found found your

1003
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: way um to the next job in Nigeria. Yeah, there

1004
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: were other little things that happened all the time. You know,

1005
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: we'll advised governments on X Y and z or helped

1006
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: him with something, and but we ended up going to

1007
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: Nigeria with a mission really to rescue those girls that

1008
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: were kidnapped. That was the mission that was given initially

1009
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,479
Speaker 1: the um what were they called it, the school girls.

1010
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember the name of the village they

1011
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: were taken from. Yes, Um, So that's what you guys

1012
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: were brought into and it was well, we'll get into

1013
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of the American side, if you're willing

1014
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: um down the road. UM. But at first I wanted

1015
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: to ask a little bit about your element and what

1016
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: your guys did over there, because it turned out that

1017
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, and I think the reason why

1018
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: the media picked up on it so much was that

1019
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: once again we saw that your men were incredibly effective

1020
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: at fighting an African insurgency, and you guys pretty much

1021
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: beat Boco Haram back with the Nigerians, you know, working

1022
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: with them, beat the beat the insurgency back. Yeah, I

1023
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: think you know. The initial mission was rescued the ship

1024
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: of girls. Um. The Nigerians gave us members of their

1025
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: special forces, and let me say, right from the start,

1026
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: we were shocked at how badly trained they were. And

1027
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: they weren't trained by Nigerians. I won't go into train them,

1028
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: but those who trained them, no trained them. I had

1029
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: never in my life seen an a K blank before

1030
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: until I got to Nigeria and their special forces guys

1031
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: had never conducted life fire exercises. Never. They had never

1032
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: trained section or even larger attacks or small team attacks

1033
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: with live ammunition. UM. So it you know, we had

1034
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: to start with guys who were taught to singing the

1035
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: morning and clap hands and say hey, bro, how's it

1036
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: going today, and turned them into soldiers very quickly to

1037
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: go and rescue these poor girls. Um. Sort of half

1038
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: way through the training, Bokahom was in the process of

1039
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: or getting close to overrunning the seventh Infantry Division at

1040
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: my Degurium. So I sent our senior intelligence officer to

1041
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: my Deguri along with a very well known South African

1042
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: guy called Henny Blah who became our liaison with the

1043
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: seventh Infantry Division, and I finally made my way over

1044
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: to the seventh Infantry Division and spoke to the division commander,

1045
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: found out what the problems were, and then struck an

1046
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: agreement with them because they wanted us to get involved.

1047
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Basically two get BOCAM out of the division and area

1048
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: of operations. UM. Because the initial contract was awarded by

1049
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: the what was he called the National Security Adviser of

1050
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: the Nigerian government, they had to give permission that our

1051
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: mission changes from hostage rescue mission into a very robust

1052
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: offensive operation. UM. You know, let me just go back

1053
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: to Boklohom. These guys are foreign funded. They had equipment

1054
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: that the Nigerians didn't even have, apart from air assets

1055
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: which they didn't have. UM. And they were really on

1056
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: the outspurts on the outskirts of my deguri. The agreement

1057
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: that was made with the seventh Infantry Division after the

1058
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: permission had been granted to change the mission was that, Okay,

1059
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: we're going to train the rest of the guys we

1060
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: stalled training in hostage rescue. We're going to change it.

1061
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: Into what we will call a mobile strike force. We

1062
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: will lead the advance for the division. You come behind

1063
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: us and occupied to rain because up until that stage

1064
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: the Nigerians hadn't been able to really fight back. So

1065
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: we had these young Nigerian guys, their Special Forces guys,

1066
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: and we trained in very quickly in mobile operations. We

1067
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: had to get our own helicopters, which were two Aging

1068
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: Gazelles one actually I think there were two U H

1069
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: one that had been bought somewhere in Europe and one

1070
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: m I twenty four, so which we changed the Gazelles

1071
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:25,959
Speaker 1: into gun ships. We mounted guns on the floor these

1072
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: things and they would become dedicated gun ships. Along with

1073
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: the m I twenty four. The US were used purely

1074
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: as troop carriers and at the same time vehicles were

1075
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: delivered which were South African designed and built m wraps

1076
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: which we knew pretty well. And we had one rocket

1077
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: launcher and we had I think to two millimeter mortars

1078
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: and about four or sixty millimeter mortars. That was our

1079
01:04:55,200 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: entire inventory. So that was batt That was the order

1080
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 1: of battle right there. Yeah, that was it. Um you know.

1081
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 1: I actually was part of the advance to take a

1082
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: town called martha Um and we used our gun ships

1083
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: are modified gunships, and these Nigerians were trained, and we

1084
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: took them to battle and they took Marfa and the

1085
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: division came in and reoccupied it. We were pulled back

1086
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 1: to my Deguri and asked to just launch operations against Bokharam.

1087
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,919
Speaker 1: And in a month's worth of operations we took back

1088
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 1: to Rain larger than Belgium. Um which I'm not sure

1089
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: who was the most surprised us to Bothaharum because it

1090
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: was it was actually amazing what the guys did on

1091
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: the ground. And what had really proved to us is

1092
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: if these Nigerian troops have been trained properly from the beginning,

1093
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: Nigeria would never be in the position from armed conflict

1094
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: point of view where it is now. Um. That said, obviously,

1095
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: you know no war can be one purely through bombed force.

1096
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: There has to be governance. UM. We discussed it with

1097
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: the division commander to say, look, if we take it down,

1098
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: get the law enforcement guys and let them establish law

1099
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: in order, let the following happen. And you know, we

1100
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: were told when we left that those things were not done.

1101
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: They were told as bad advice. We've given them UM.

1102
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,439
Speaker 1: So you know, I look at a lot of things

1103
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: happening with a very jaundiced eye and with extreme alarm

1104
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: because this is a super wealthy continent, not only in

1105
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: terms of resources but in terms of people. UM. But

1106
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: I think it suits many interests that we stay where

1107
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 1: we are in regards to the poor training that African

1108
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: armies are receiving from many different actors. I've talked about

1109
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 1: this in the past that I think one of the

1110
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: big problems that we engage in as Americans and as

1111
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: American special Forces is we are we gauge in mirroring.

1112
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: So we go around the world and we try to

1113
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: train foreign militaries to try to make them look just

1114
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: like us UM, to have the same table of organization

1115
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: and equipment as us UM. But it's it's totally different.

1116
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 1: It's comparing apples to oranges, because these foreign forces that

1117
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 1: we're training, they do not have the air power that

1118
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: we have, They do not have the global mandate that

1119
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: the U. S Military has UM. This situation is just

1120
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: so completely different. And I remember you mentioned earlier. You

1121
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: know that some of the training that are a lot

1122
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: of the training that these forces receive in Africa is

1123
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: just window dressing as wondering as somebody who is an

1124
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: African security specialist, if you could, um speak to that

1125
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more in depth. Well, you know, if

1126
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: I look at the way a lot of African armies

1127
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: are trained. Um, if let's go back to to basic doctrine,

1128
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: a lot of African armies utilize the doctrine that was

1129
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 1: tort to them by the once colonial rulers. So those

1130
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 1: countries that were colonized by England practice English doctrine that

1131
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: was what was taught to them. And those doctrines were

1132
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: slightly modified at the end of World War Two and

1133
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 1: sort of transitioned into a doctrine developed to fight the

1134
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: Russians in Europe somewhere. Um, So these guys are being

1135
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: trained how to fight the Russians in Europe without air power. Um.

1136
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: And and quite frankly, I think that's pretty done. Um.

1137
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, we have a different terrain we have, we

1138
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: have a different type of soldier. Um. A lot of

1139
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: the African soldiers that we've encountered might not be educationally

1140
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,799
Speaker 1: highly qualified, but that doesn't make him a bad soldier.

1141
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,600
Speaker 1: You need someone who can actually train him and you

1142
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: can mentor him. Now, there's nothing wrong in trying to

1143
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: create clones of of of training armies that are working

1144
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: if what's taught to these guys are actually going to work.

1145
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: But it doesn't work, um, you know. And that's where

1146
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 1: my grape is. These guys are taught something, they go

1147
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: off to battle and it's entirely different from what they

1148
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 1: were taught, you know. And and that's where my problem

1149
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 1: lies with all of this. We're not dealing with We're

1150
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 1: dealing with an African way of war. We're not dealing

1151
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: with a European way of war. And there's a different mindset.

1152
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: And you have to look at a lot of the

1153
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: black soldiers in Africa come from old warrior tribes where

1154
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: there's already a mindset of being a warrior installed in

1155
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: them at youth. And now we try and change that

1156
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,759
Speaker 1: into something that cannot work for them. And what happens

1157
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 1: is ultimately they become confused because they don't know what

1158
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: to do, um. And that's why our approaches, you know,

1159
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 1: let's change this doctrine, it to teach you all one doctrine.

1160
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: This is how it's going to work. Will provide the

1161
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: air power if you give us their assets to do it,

1162
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: because just flying a m I twenty four, you know,

1163
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: two meters above the ground taking out a convoy of

1164
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 1: vehicles isn't something that any pilot can just get in

1165
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: them do. There needs to be a certain skill set

1166
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 1: and the level of training there, and we can train

1167
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: them to get there, but we can't give it to

1168
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,440
Speaker 1: them an issue. UM. We also find it very difficult

1169
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: in the sense that they never taught how to really

1170
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 1: call in air support. So the air support might exist,

1171
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 1: but they don't know how to call it in because

1172
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: that's never been talked to them. UM. We spoke to

1173
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: guys who were trained as forward air controllers in the

1174
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:38,480
Speaker 1: African country. The entire course was done in a classroom.

1175
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: They've never spoken on a ground to air frequency where

1176
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: they actually spoken to a pilot and talked him onto

1177
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: a target. How can you put a guy like that

1178
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 1: under stress in the field and expect him to call

1179
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,600
Speaker 1: in an accurate air strike. You can't do it and

1180
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: not his fault. He just never talked to do that.

1181
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: In the last couple of years, we've seen these high

1182
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: profile incidents involving American forces in Africa in places like

1183
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: Benghazi and more recently in nisier outside Tango tango. UM.

1184
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could speak a little bit

1185
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: to America's role on the African continent and what we're

1186
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: getting wrong and how we could adjust our policy to

1187
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 1: have UM better success and just more more positive engagements

1188
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: UM in Africa generally. Well, look, let me start from

1189
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,640
Speaker 1: the outside, Jack, I'm not qualified to really discuss. I

1190
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: know it's a little unfairly and and and secondly, any

1191
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 1: soldier that dies, and I'm talking of the man in

1192
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 1: uniform that dies, whether he's dying within his own country

1193
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: or he's dying being sently great. To me, it's almost

1194
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: like a personal loss because we all really want family ultimately. UM.

1195
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: Watching the video footage of those Foka as they were

1196
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: shot in the jet, we actually looked at it, and

1197
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: I have to admit we were really really horrified at

1198
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:11,640
Speaker 1: what we saw because that was a classical example of

1199
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 1: doctrine or failure UM. Not understanding the terrain, not understanding

1200
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,759
Speaker 1: the enemy. UM. And if you don't understand the terrain

1201
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,680
Speaker 1: and the enemy, there's no ways you are going to

1202
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: actually achieve success. And I'm giving you my point of view,

1203
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying I'm right I'm also not saying

1204
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, and I said earlier in retrospect, we can

1205
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:38,639
Speaker 1: all be very smart. But when I looked at that

1206
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: and what happened, there were so many failures. Um. You know,

1207
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 1: and I don't know the story behind it. I see

1208
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 1: what I see, and it's it's almost like being overhead

1209
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 1: of a battle taking place, and you're sitting in an

1210
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: aircraft and you're actually watching forces maneuver into place or

1211
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 1: not maneuver into place, and you can identify certain weak spots,

1212
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: and and looking at that, I thought, holy cow, that's

1213
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:11,200
Speaker 1: actually so so tragic and could have been avoided. I

1214
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: think those guys, in a sense, were, for want of

1215
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,759
Speaker 1: a better word, sacrificed in many ways. UM. I also

1216
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: have to say that I do question why US forces

1217
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 1: were in that area. UM. You know, I'm well aware

1218
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: of the Tardini Basin and what riches that holds in

1219
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: terms of oil and gas, and to me, it was

1220
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 1: very interesting that the global War on Terror transition to

1221
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: the Tardini Basin. Um. It's like, holy Cow. If you've

1222
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: been there and you've seen that area, there is nothing.

1223
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,640
Speaker 1: If the bad guys want to go there, it's just

1224
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:50,759
Speaker 1: keep them in there, they're going to die of first

1225
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 1: and hunger. Anyway, we don't need to sacrifice men and

1226
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 1: those troops from Niger that we're with the U S Forces.

1227
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: It's obvious that they were never taught much, um because

1228
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: I think if I, if I understood the whole unfolding

1229
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 1: of what happened correctly, they were the first to show

1230
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: the souls of their boots, some of them definitely, yeah, yeah,

1231
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: And that tells me that there was a serious problem

1232
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 1: in terms of training that was going on there. So

1233
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, in retrospect, I can criticize, but I have

1234
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:27,759
Speaker 1: to say watching that was almost heartbreaking because I felt

1235
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,799
Speaker 1: that those four guys were in way over their heads.

1236
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: There were doctrine or failures and in many ways they

1237
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 1: were sacrificed on the altar of something else. Um So

1238
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: you know to me that that is a failure and

1239
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,600
Speaker 1: we can't dress it up any other way. UM. I

1240
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: think it's it's also easy for us to say, look,

1241
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, we Africans, we can solve Africa's problems and

1242
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: we should be allowed to solve them. And yes, I

1243
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,519
Speaker 1: do believe that. Um. I do I ever believe that

1244
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 1: there's different ways of ending for want of a to word,

1245
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: an insurgency in Africa. UM, it doesn't take rocket science

1246
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: to actually figure out how to do it, but then

1247
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: we need the political and military will to push through

1248
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 1: and bloody will do it and don't talk about it,

1249
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 1: don't give these sound bites to people UM and then

1250
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: actually end up doing nothing. And that's what really concerns me,

1251
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:24,480
Speaker 1: what I see going on. You know, I look at UM.

1252
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: Oil is discovered in UM, some remote out of area place,

1253
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:34,959
Speaker 1: and suddenly there's an insurgency. It's like, how is that possible?

1254
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: And these guys that are are taking this insurgency have

1255
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,799
Speaker 1: new weapons and equipment that tells me someone's supplying them,

1256
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 1: supporting them, encouraging them. UM. We have to find out

1257
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:49,840
Speaker 1: where it is and actually cut that off throat UM.

1258
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: And there's no nice way of doing it. Unfortunately, you

1259
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 1: cannot sit down. And I remember that from General to Beyont,

1260
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 1: the Indonesian Special Forces said to me in my one day,

1261
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 1: the West will realize that you cannot sit down with

1262
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 1: terrorists and drink d and reach an amicable agreement with him.

1263
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 1: And he said it then and and his words have

1264
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:17,600
Speaker 1: run through in many, many instances, and it bothers me

1265
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: that we still think we can play Mr. Nice guy

1266
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: when it comes to people who are as brutal as

1267
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: what they are. Um, we shouldn't allow this to have

1268
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:32,680
Speaker 1: even happened in the first instance. Sorry I digressed, but

1269
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: I know, no, no, no, that's very important. I think

1270
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,679
Speaker 1: that they definitely we use these buzzwords in the United

1271
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 1: States about you know, train, advice, assist or working by

1272
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: with and through, and those are good things. Those are

1273
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 1: doctrinal terms that they actually mean something. But when we

1274
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 1: send our soldiers out to fight, you know, some some

1275
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 1: of these groups quite frankly or barbaric, um that you're

1276
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: well acquainted with. Uh. And I mean, we should be

1277
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 1: honest with our public, with a tax paying American citizen,

1278
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: about what we're sending our soldiers to do. And once

1279
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: we send them there, and I think they should have

1280
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 1: the tools necessary to complete the job. You know, there's

1281
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 1: that famous saying, UM something about only the dead know

1282
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: the end of war from point yeah, and it's it's

1283
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 1: sadly very true in many ways, but it doesn't have

1284
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: to be like that. UM. I do think that in

1285
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 1: many ways the U. S. Public are not really aware

1286
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: of what is going on It's like the public anywhere.

1287
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 1: And I'm not only pointing a finger at the us M.

1288
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 1: If you look at pull it back to the old

1289
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: South African case when we were in Angota, the public

1290
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,639
Speaker 1: weren't really aware of what we are doing. The quote

1291
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: unquote border war. Yeah, yeah, the border will, except the

1292
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: border was blood I far into a different country. It

1293
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 1: wasn't really a border. But yeah, a border will. Um.

1294
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 1: But the problem to me goes back to the armed

1295
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:05,640
Speaker 1: forces who don't really understand the enemy they're fighting. Um.

1296
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: You know, if if, if you really just look at

1297
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: and let's just be very honest and open about this,

1298
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: let's look at people of the Islamic faith. Um. Part

1299
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 1: of the the upbringing is the hospitality that they will

1300
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 1: extend to you as a guest in their village if

1301
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 1: you arrive there. UM. And they do practice it, and

1302
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 1: I've seen it in Africa. I've been the recipient of that.

1303
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: UM and actually sit down and talk to these guys

1304
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 1: and say, well, you know, why are you doing this

1305
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 1: and they will tell you why they leave things. It's

1306
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 1: it's the same with the pirates. We had the same

1307
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: We had to sit down with the pirates at the

1308
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:50,719
Speaker 1: stage and we spoke to them, sorry in Somalia. Yeah,

1309
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 1: the Somali pirates. We met them in a third country

1310
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 1: and we said, guys, we need to find out why

1311
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 1: you're doing this because otherwise we're gonna have to come

1312
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 1: and shoot you. So tell us why are you doing this?

1313
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 1: And they told us and we said, okay, so if

1314
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 1: we do the following, will you desist? And they said, yes,

1315
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 1: we will because we know it's dangerous to be pirates.

1316
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:13,879
Speaker 1: And when we presented that, we were told that stupid,

1317
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 1: that you can't do that. Um. You know, so we

1318
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 1: try and find answers without understanding what the question is, UM,

1319
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 1: And you cannot operate like that. So unless you really

1320
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 1: know what's making these people take what is what has

1321
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: led to this, um, there's no ways you're going to

1322
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,639
Speaker 1: defeat them, because their belief becomes and I'm not only

1323
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: now speaking of people of the Islamic's faith, I'm speaking

1324
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:43,080
Speaker 1: of all people. Once their belief is their belief, and

1325
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:46,759
Speaker 1: that belief leads them to think there's no hope coming,

1326
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 1: that are going to take up arms against you, and

1327
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 1: they will attack you because they have nothing to lose.

1328
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 1: But I think you know, sprinkled throughout this whole interview.

1329
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot of takeaways, um for you know, people

1330
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: for our troops who go over to Africa and conduct

1331
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:05,800
Speaker 1: these types of operations. But I was wondering if you

1332
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,559
Speaker 1: could speak maybe a little bit more on the policy level,

1333
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 1: what do you think America can be doing better and

1334
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: as far as our engagement in Africa. Again, Jack, very

1335
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,040
Speaker 1: difficult for me to answer because sadly, we have been

1336
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 1: the victims of America threatening governments when they make use

1337
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 1: of US and and we only get to the it's

1338
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 1: for one of the better word calls the back end

1339
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: of policy. UM So I cannot really speak in terms

1340
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 1: of what the U S policy is. What I do

1341
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 1: know is that the US needs to involve people that

1342
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 1: actually know the continent for a start, and that have

1343
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 1: an affinity with the people, whether that people be the

1344
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 1: enemy of the armed forces, that can actually speak to

1345
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: them from a position of trust. And I think that's

1346
01:20:54,680 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 1: very very important. You know, it's we've been do this

1347
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 1: more before and seeing what happens on this continent and ultimately,

1348
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: if we really take away all the good and the

1349
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 1: bad of policy, whichever policy it is, whether it's the

1350
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:17,600
Speaker 1: US is policy or Russia's policy or South Africa's policies irrelevant.

1351
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 1: If Africa came to terms with itself and actually did

1352
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: something to lift itself out of the quagmireates and it

1353
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 1: will become the wealthiest continent in the world because it

1354
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 1: actually holds the most riches in the world, and there

1355
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:35,559
Speaker 1: will be a lot more money to be made by

1356
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 1: then doing straightforward business and extracting minerals and converting it

1357
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 1: into a product and selling the product. And what we're

1358
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,839
Speaker 1: seeing now with Warren conflicts, and to me, the irony

1359
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 1: is wherever there's resources, there's suddenly conflict as well. UM.

1360
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,600
Speaker 1: So you know, I have this this caught between this

1361
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 1: is this being instigated or is it just normal? And

1362
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 1: in many cases it isn't more. Um. You know, if

1363
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 1: when it comes to government policy, I understand foreign interests,

1364
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: I understand national interests, understand vital interests. So I think

1365
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:16,799
Speaker 1: I understand it, U. But when your foreign policy clashes

1366
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: with my national interests, there's going to be a clash. Um.

1367
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 1: And I think policies need to be dovetailed that both

1368
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: parties gain out of it and not only one party.

1369
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:32,160
Speaker 1: And I think the antagonism we're seeing currently in Africa

1370
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 1: towards the U S. And we're seeing a lot of

1371
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 1: it is because there's a clash in your foreign policy

1372
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 1: and African countries national interests and what they consider their

1373
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: vital interests, and there's no thought being given to actually

1374
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 1: dovetail those two so that both parties can gain from it.

1375
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,800
Speaker 1: Why coming to my country and tell me that this

1376
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 1: is how you will do things. Man, I'm going to

1377
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:58,680
Speaker 1: be so angry with you. I'm going to throw you

1378
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: out the door. I want to say, Okay, give me

1379
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,560
Speaker 1: money and I'll try it, but I'm actually going to

1380
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 1: use that money for something else. Yeah, they don't want

1381
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:09,000
Speaker 1: to be calenties a good Yeah, you're going to lose

1382
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 1: financially and I'm going to scool financially. Um. But it's

1383
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: it's It's resulted in a lot of antagonism towards the

1384
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: US massive And I'm not saying listen. I will sit

1385
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 1: with the government, sorry Jack, and they will tell me

1386
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 1: one thing about their feelings to the U S. The

1387
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 1: U S Ambassador will walking and I can sit in

1388
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 1: the next room and they will tell him something completely different,

1389
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: this rosy story, how happy they are, and when he leaves,

1390
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:40,679
Speaker 1: they will tell me how do we get rid of them? Um?

1391
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:43,040
Speaker 1: And that's the reality of it, you know. And it's

1392
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 1: because people are angry and people feel that their national

1393
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 1: interests are being sacrificed at the altar of someone else's

1394
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:53,840
Speaker 1: foreign interest. Do you think that cuts to the heart

1395
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 1: of why our government is unwilling to work with you

1396
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,679
Speaker 1: and your men? That it's because of this clash, because

1397
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:04,759
Speaker 1: you're contracting directly with African governments, whereas the United States

1398
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 1: is coming and trying to impose something from the outside. Yeah,

1399
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:12,599
Speaker 1: a lot of people get mad at me about this.

1400
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:18,560
Speaker 1: But first of all, democracy to Africa is a foreign concept. Um.

1401
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 1: You know many Western nations. Can't you even really practice

1402
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:26,599
Speaker 1: proper democracy now when we say you've got to now

1403
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: be democratic and if you're not democratic, we're gonna bloody

1404
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:34,120
Speaker 1: will bomb you into democracy, first of all, electorates the

1405
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: wrong impression. Yeah. Our problem is we have to um

1406
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: contract directly with the government. We become members of that

1407
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 1: government's armed forces. We have their ranks, who have the uniforms.

1408
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:49,719
Speaker 1: We eat the same food as they do, um, except

1409
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,560
Speaker 1: our position is different. We take them to battle and

1410
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:54,599
Speaker 1: we make they amn sure that they do what they

1411
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 1: were brought to do to end whatever is happening. Um.

1412
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 1: I think as soon as you come and you say

1413
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 1: to people, okay, we're going to train you, you can march,

1414
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 1: you can salute, you're good enough to go and take

1415
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 1: on the enemy. Go um. In the African culture, they

1416
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: will turn around and say, well, you know what, Jack

1417
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 1: trained us, but it's too bloody scared to go with us.

1418
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: So there's a big problem that I'm you're right, You're right,

1419
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:25,400
Speaker 1: I think, Um, you know, our problem with the US

1420
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:27,719
Speaker 1: is I think we have upset a lot of foreign

1421
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 1: interests unknowingly. We've never done it purposefully. We've never purposefully

1422
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,799
Speaker 1: set out to Johoma country. In fact, I have warned

1423
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 1: the US of things that we're going to happen and

1424
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,439
Speaker 1: basically been chased away, and US servicemen and women have

1425
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: died because our warnings were not heated. Um. You know,

1426
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:51,720
Speaker 1: we could be a huge asset to the US if

1427
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: there is a genuine world to get problems resolved. But

1428
01:25:57,040 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 1: I think internationally, and again I'm not the only pointing

1429
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 1: at the US. I think there's not the political world

1430
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,840
Speaker 1: of many governments, and there's also not the military world

1431
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 1: to end conflicts. Could you mention, um any if you're

1432
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: able to some of those instances where you try to

1433
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:16,679
Speaker 1: warrant the U. S. Government that there's something going down

1434
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 1: and it was ignored. First was the U S S Coal.

1435
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:24,759
Speaker 1: We actually warned about it two weeks before it happened.

1436
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 1: The source of that information came from a h at

1437
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:36,400
Speaker 1: that stage sadly no longer, A very trusted friend who

1438
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 1: served in the Ayatollahmenis Revolutionary Guard warned me what was

1439
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: going to happen. And I was on good footing with

1440
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 1: the Saudia Ambassador to South Africa. I went to him,

1441
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 1: I told him. He brought in someone from the U.

1442
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: S Embassy. Um. I took the source there. The source

1443
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: told him what was going to happen, and he was

1444
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 1: told his line. Um. And I wasn't allowed to sit

1445
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 1: in that meeting because I was told as too sensitive.

1446
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 1: But the irony is that I knew what the story was.

1447
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 1: I brought the guy and someone from the U. S

1448
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 1: Embassy says, it's too sensitive. You cannot sit in this meeting.

1449
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 1: Go sit in the car. So I go sit in

1450
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:23,840
Speaker 1: the car like a driver. The source comes out and says,

1451
01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: and I asked him, how did it go and he says,

1452
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 1: you know what, they didn't believe me. Um, they told

1453
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,960
Speaker 1: me I'm lying. Two weeks later, the USS code is hit. Um.

1454
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: I was in Benghazi shortly before you ambassador was killed.

1455
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:41,680
Speaker 1: I was told they are going to kill him. Um.

1456
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 1: We also try to get people to speak to us.

1457
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: No one wanted to speak to us. And in the

1458
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 1: and he said, well, you know what, excuse my French

1459
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 1: fuck it. If no one wants to talk to us,

1460
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 1: we'll just sit back and watch what happens. And to me,

1461
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:57,599
Speaker 1: that's the sad part about it, because people are losing

1462
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 1: their lives because the intelligence doesn't match their false narrative

1463
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 1: that they have started believing. Well, it also may have

1464
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,600
Speaker 1: been and it's more. There's more than that, Jack, and

1465
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into it, but people lose

1466
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:14,479
Speaker 1: their lives because of narratives that are so false but

1467
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 1: are so powerfully entrenched in their minds. They will not

1468
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 1: sacrifice that. It also may be a case of who

1469
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: gets to take credit for the intelligence And if you know,

1470
01:28:24,439 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: Evan Barlow brings his source in, it may make one

1471
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 1: of our intelligence agencies look poorly. You know, how come?

1472
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 1: How come this guy walks in off the street and

1473
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: has that, but we don't. But I don't walk in

1474
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 1: off the streets, and I don't want credit for it.

1475
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,679
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, he has a warning, please watch out

1476
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 1: right me to me as a South African and if

1477
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 1: I have warning of an attack and it happened in

1478
01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:49,439
Speaker 1: my country, I will tell someone in the government. If

1479
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 1: someone comes to me from outside my country and says, look,

1480
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 1: they're going to attack a government installation, yet whether I

1481
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:00,839
Speaker 1: support the government or not relevant, it's my government, oh bloody,

1482
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: will go and tell them. Look, this is what I had.

1483
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 1: It's unconfirmed, a single source information. Please act against it.

1484
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,680
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in taking credit for these things. We

1485
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 1: just don't want people to die unnecessarily because with the

1486
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:21,599
Speaker 1: death of any whether to be a British, American, even

1487
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,840
Speaker 1: a Russian soldier in Africa, there are consequences that. Yeah,

1488
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: we don't want those consequences because we live there, you know.

1489
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,759
Speaker 1: So to me, it's you know, why be upset about it?

1490
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,200
Speaker 1: Why why don't you want to talk to me? For

1491
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 1: goodness sake, it's your interests that are going to be impacted,

1492
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 1: not mine. I'm just trying to actually save you the

1493
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 1: embarrassment of it and obviously the depth of people. I

1494
01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:51,800
Speaker 1: find it very frustrating that that our government is kind

1495
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:57,600
Speaker 1: of sidelined and maybe even sabotaged your efforts because you

1496
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 1: and your man have had great success putting some really

1497
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 1: bad actors out of business. And I mean that's just

1498
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 1: the fact, you know, real politic or side and all that.

1499
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 1: I mean the r u F and Sierra Leone, Boko

1500
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: haram In in Nigeria. I mean, these were some really

1501
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:15,599
Speaker 1: bad guys and there were people that we were trying

1502
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 1: to combat anyway. I mean Boco Harams on our terrorist list. Also, well,

1503
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:25,320
Speaker 1: it's difficult to certain actors on your your terrorist list,

1504
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:29,120
Speaker 1: but secretly they're also being funded by you. Um. It

1505
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,559
Speaker 1: creates a bit of a problem, Jack, You think the

1506
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,040
Speaker 1: United States was also finding them at the same time.

1507
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:36,760
Speaker 1: Let let me go even further than when we were

1508
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 1: fighting the l r A and the US heard about it.

1509
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 1: Those hundred Special Forces guys were seen in their ass

1510
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:48,799
Speaker 1: Excuse me for saying this at Nassoura in air condition, tense,

1511
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 1: speaking on Skype all day to friends and family. UM,

1512
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 1: that to me isn't winning the war. Um. And that

1513
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 1: created a lot of problems with the Ugandans who looked

1514
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:03,040
Speaker 1: upon that not very favorably. Um, we also have to

1515
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 1: look at why is so common training certain of these

1516
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: elements in Central Africa Republic under the guise of intelligence collection.

1517
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 1: That is bullshit And sadly, I live on this continent.

1518
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 1: I see what's happening. People talk to us. We cannot

1519
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 1: sit back and say, all is well, we are going

1520
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: to be rescued. We have to stand up us as

1521
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:29,360
Speaker 1: Africans and actually sort out these problems. And if the

1522
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:32,519
Speaker 1: US doesn't want us to, that's too bad. But other

1523
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:36,120
Speaker 1: people are starting to ask us to actually help them,

1524
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 1: and they're not the allies of the U S. And

1525
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 1: we don't want to go that route because ironically, or

1526
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:48,840
Speaker 1: stupidly or naively, we've always regarded ourselves as similar. South

1527
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:51,800
Speaker 1: African soldiers fought with U. S forces in World War

1528
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 1: Two in Europe. Armor guys were involved with through our

1529
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 1: air force, fought with the US in Korea. So to

1530
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: some extent, we still have a belief in the back

1531
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 1: of our minds that the Allies and we were ostensibly

1532
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 1: allied and fighting communism as well. Well, we were supposedly, um,

1533
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, and suddenly we are the bad guys, and

1534
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: we're saying allies are saying we're bad guys. The traditional

1535
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:19,599
Speaker 1: bad guys are coming to us to say help us,

1536
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,760
Speaker 1: and we're going, what the hell do we do now? Um?

1537
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 1: You know? So the point I'm making is, yes, we

1538
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 1: could be a huge asset, but I think we are

1539
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:32,759
Speaker 1: seeing petty sabotage of our company. We are seeing people

1540
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:35,720
Speaker 1: that are concerned. And I'll tell you another thing. I

1541
01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 1: was contracted by a game park, okay, to help them

1542
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: sort out problems in the DRC, And I hope some

1543
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:48,440
Speaker 1: guys of the US that are secretly deployed in the DRC,

1544
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:53,200
Speaker 1: which I know they are, are listening to this. I

1545
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 1: deployed with the game rangers, myself and one of my

1546
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:59,640
Speaker 1: black guys for about a week to understand how are

1547
01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:02,599
Speaker 1: they are grating? Why are they being shot to pieces

1548
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: in the game park. Because the game park is a

1549
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:11,599
Speaker 1: lucrative hideaway, it's also a very lucrative source of ivory.

1550
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:14,720
Speaker 1: They're also using it to traffic weapons through it. And

1551
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,519
Speaker 1: the guys running the game park said to me, we

1552
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 1: actually can't control this, please come and help. Okay. So

1553
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 1: I'd actually just got out of Nigeria. I was on

1554
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 1: my way. I don't know where the hell I was

1555
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:30,760
Speaker 1: going to, but I diverted to Congo to go and

1556
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:34,320
Speaker 1: have a look at what was going on. Do you

1557
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: know that US Soldiers of Africa arrived when they heard

1558
01:33:39,479 --> 01:33:42,559
Speaker 1: I was there, threatened the managers of the game park,

1559
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 1: and I'm not lying, threatened that if we are employed,

1560
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:48,880
Speaker 1: they will make sure that not a cent of US

1561
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 1: money goes to that game park. Now, do you want

1562
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:54,240
Speaker 1: to tell me that they are actually concerned at what's

1563
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:57,040
Speaker 1: going on? Because in that game park are three level

1564
01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: groups that also use it as a safe haven. So

1565
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:03,400
Speaker 1: don't come with the bullshit they want peace, that they're

1566
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: working for peace. We have seen too much that actually

1567
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 1: contradicts that. And that's why I say U S soldiers

1568
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 1: are being sent into places with the wrong doctrine, not

1569
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:17,080
Speaker 1: understanding what's happening, and they're going home in body bags,

1570
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 1: and no one understands what's happening, and what is happening

1571
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:24,080
Speaker 1: on the continent. The bitterness is rising against the U S.

1572
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry I said that, but I don't say

1573
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: otherwise I'd be lying. Don't be That's it's important because

1574
01:34:32,439 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 1: you know, once we understand this and we understand that

1575
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: our engagement is not aligned with what's really happening on

1576
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:40,679
Speaker 1: the ground, and then we can start to make some fixes.

1577
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:44,320
Speaker 1: Hopefully we can start to change things. Um. But right now,

1578
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we just have such a poor understanding I

1579
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:50,559
Speaker 1: think of Africa overall, Um, And you know in your words,

1580
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:53,840
Speaker 1: I also hear the I can't help but draw some

1581
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 1: parallels to UM when I interviewed Tim Backs who served

1582
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,800
Speaker 1: in the Solute Scouts, and the emphasis he placed on

1583
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:05,880
Speaker 1: the cultural understanding of the people that you're working with,

1584
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:10,680
Speaker 1: and how important that aspect is. Jack. You know, some

1585
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: of the very best troops I've ever worked with has

1586
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:19,639
Speaker 1: been African troops. Why because if you have gained their

1587
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:23,680
Speaker 1: respect and their loyalty, they will die for you. Um.

1588
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:26,840
Speaker 1: They don't want to die, but they will die for

1589
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 1: you if you train them and you are fair as

1590
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,840
Speaker 1: you should be as as a leader of them, and

1591
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: they know that what you have trained them and you

1592
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:37,920
Speaker 1: believe in because you are going to war with them,

1593
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:41,679
Speaker 1: they will die for you. And sadly, I cannot say

1594
01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:43,760
Speaker 1: that about other troops. And we've trained a lot of

1595
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:47,759
Speaker 1: other troops. And that's why we stick to Africa, because

1596
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 1: good or bad. We love Africa politics aside. People in

1597
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: most countries are good people that will actually help you,

1598
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:01,920
Speaker 1: that will or just want to live their lives. They

1599
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:04,519
Speaker 1: don't want to be involved in conflicts. They don't want

1600
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:06,800
Speaker 1: to be caught in the cross fire. Our job is

1601
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:08,840
Speaker 1: to make sure they're not caught in the cross fire.

1602
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 1: But those troops who are with us will go with us,

1603
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: and they will die for us and will die with

1604
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 1: us if necessary, because this is our continent, this is

1605
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 1: where we will die. And ultimately, if and I'll say

1606
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 1: this with great respect towards the U S, if they

1607
01:36:25,160 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: really want peace, they better start changing the way they're

1608
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: doing things. You cannot go in in demand that you

1609
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:36,000
Speaker 1: will accept democracy and our model of democracy, or you

1610
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 1: will accept our training or our style of training. It

1611
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 1: isn't working. Why do you keep doing it wrong over

1612
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:46,839
Speaker 1: and over and over again, trying to the newest troops

1613
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,640
Speaker 1: and US troops are dying. And as sad as it

1614
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: might be, I've read the report on that NASA thing,

1615
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:58,760
Speaker 1: and there's a very crucial part missing in there. It's

1616
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,120
Speaker 1: one thing to say that they failures, What failures were they?

1617
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:06,480
Speaker 1: Who's who resulted or or what resulted in those failures,

1618
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:12,679
Speaker 1: people die, and sadly it happens because of a lack

1619
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:18,800
Speaker 1: of understanding the operational environment, are operating in, not understanding

1620
01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:23,960
Speaker 1: the populace in that area, not understanding the terrain, and

1621
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,120
Speaker 1: with all of that, still applying the wrong doctrine. You

1622
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 1: are going to die, Jack, That's the harsh reality of it.

1623
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:34,400
Speaker 1: And you're lucky if you're going to die quick. If

1624
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 1: you're unlucky, you're going to die a very very slow death.

1625
01:37:38,160 --> 01:37:40,639
Speaker 1: We're trying to fit a square pagan or around hall

1626
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 1: and like you said, we keep trying to do the

1627
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:45,640
Speaker 1: same things over and over and over again. And you know,

1628
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: I think the American military has experienced this from the

1629
01:37:48,520 --> 01:37:51,439
Speaker 1: Vietnam conflict starting in the nineteen sixties all the way

1630
01:37:51,520 --> 01:37:55,640
Speaker 1: until today. Um we're just not very good at counterinsurgency.

1631
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 1: And you know, like they said, the definition of insanity

1632
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:00,080
Speaker 1: is doing the same thing over and over again and

1633
01:38:00,160 --> 01:38:03,960
Speaker 1: expecting a different result. But Jack, aren't we aren't we

1634
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:08,640
Speaker 1: missing the boat completely by trying to label a conflict

1635
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 1: and then saying, Okay, we've labeled this as an insurgency,

1636
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 1: Therefore the following rules now apply. Um Or it's a

1637
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:20,559
Speaker 1: teratrism thing, therefore it's now this, or it's a conventional battle,

1638
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 1: therefore it's now this. We're not geared for that. We

1639
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:29,120
Speaker 1: are tricking ourselves into believing that once we have labeled

1640
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 1: something or given it a new name, that we understand

1641
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: that reveals answers, which it doesn't. These types of conflicts

1642
01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 1: have been going on and on and on and on

1643
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:41,560
Speaker 1: for years. Um, you know, if if we did so,

1644
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:47,360
Speaker 1: we as executive outcomes. And excuse me for going back there,

1645
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:50,000
Speaker 1: but it's sort of fresh in my mind because I've

1646
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:52,880
Speaker 1: just read all this and had to rewrite the damn thing.

1647
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:57,080
Speaker 1: I can five men, which is what ear was at

1648
01:38:57,120 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: that stage, go to a country trainer, a brigade of

1649
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:06,360
Speaker 1: an army that had lost the war, and that brigade

1650
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:11,920
Speaker 1: goes up against ninety well armed, well trained, well discipline meant,

1651
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:15,519
Speaker 1: and eighteen months later the battlefields littered with their bodies

1652
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 1: and they're pleading for peace. Ah the hell is that possible?

1653
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:23,479
Speaker 1: And I'm asking that question seriously, Ah the hell is

1654
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 1: it possible. Let the Nigerian Army for years and years

1655
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 1: and years have been the recipients of foreign training, but

1656
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: they cannot fight bulk Ardom go and explain that to me.

1657
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: How can a trained army not find an untrained group

1658
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:42,040
Speaker 1: of people. It's just like, it's mind boggling to me.

1659
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,080
Speaker 1: I think the problem lies with the fact that we

1660
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 1: label something and then we try and fit all our

1661
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 1: little principles into that label. That we've been in Afghanistan

1662
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:55,720
Speaker 1: for sixteen years training the Afghan Army, but they're not

1663
01:39:55,800 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 1: ready yet. How many more years? Another sixteen years? So yeah,

1664
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right. The it just breaches beyond

1665
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 1: so many different things that the training curriculum is not correct.

1666
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:14,720
Speaker 1: But also it's it's well beyond that. It's you know,

1667
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 1: your trinity of gravity you talked about and having a

1668
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:22,639
Speaker 1: unified strategy. I think all these conflicts need a hole

1669
01:40:22,720 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: of government approach, holistic approach. Yeah. And you know you

1670
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 1: saw that book of mine on composite warfare. In my mind,

1671
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 1: I have the seven pillars of State, um, which we

1672
01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:39,600
Speaker 1: try and impress on governments and if they apply that

1673
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 1: and we apply or attack the enemies and trinity of gravity.

1674
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: And in a way they were attacking the enemy with

1675
01:40:46,200 --> 01:40:51,439
Speaker 1: their pillars of state, we actually destroyed the enemy. Um.

1676
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 1: And I'm saying, but this works, and we haven't only

1677
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:57,240
Speaker 1: proved it in one place, We've proved it in several places.

1678
01:40:57,479 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 1: How can no one believes this? No one follow of this?

1679
01:41:00,320 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 1: How can when we go to a place the world

1680
01:41:02,479 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 1: jumps up and down and demands that we leave because

1681
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: we're interfering with interests next to me? The sad part

1682
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: about it all, well, because we are South Africa are

1683
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:18,720
Speaker 1: going to become the victims of foreign interest in the

1684
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:24,280
Speaker 1: not too distant future. Ebben. This has been just an incredible,

1685
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: wide sweeping interview. I mean, honestly, we've never covered anything

1686
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 1: quite like this before. I've never heard anyone speak so

1687
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 1: articulately on this subject um. And I mean I think

1688
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot in this interview for

1689
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: people on our side of the fence to listen to

1690
01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:47,400
Speaker 1: and give some deeper thought to. But Jack, and you know,

1691
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 1: I'm really honored, and I apologize. I got a bit

1692
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 1: carried away. I still getting very much people getting carried on.

1693
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:57,960
Speaker 1: Don't don't apologize. I don't apologize sports and they'll just

1694
01:41:58,040 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 1: have to cut that out. No, you could say, what

1695
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,680
Speaker 1: were you want here? We're completely unsensored. That was I

1696
01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 1: think it's really important for people to hear that. You know,

1697
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 1: I'm not a conspiracy theory, so don't brand me as one.

1698
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:14,519
Speaker 1: I'm also not anti US or anti UK or anti

1699
01:42:14,560 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 1: Germany or anti anyone. I'm anti anyone who tries to

1700
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:24,120
Speaker 1: destabilize Africa. Um, that's who I'm anti against. Because you know,

1701
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:28,640
Speaker 1: all the problems that happened North flow South ah Islamic

1702
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:31,599
Speaker 1: radical problems are on their way, some of them are

1703
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: already started. Yeah. Um, so to me, I understand your

1704
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 1: concept of foreign internal defense yet to win South Africa

1705
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:45,400
Speaker 1: as a nation practice that we were castigated by the world. Um,

1706
01:42:45,479 --> 01:42:47,640
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just to us, it's very very

1707
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:51,839
Speaker 1: hypocritical of what's happening. Yeah. Well, once again for our audience,

1708
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 1: you could follow Aban on Twitter at Aban Barlow, which

1709
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:58,000
Speaker 1: is e E B E N B A R l

1710
01:42:58,040 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 1: O W on Twitter. And the book is Executive Outcomes

1711
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:05,719
Speaker 1: Against All Odds, which is just released, a re revise,

1712
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 1: a revised re release. Um, what's the publisher again? If

1713
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:14,679
Speaker 1: people want to buy that directly, the publishers thirty degrees South.

1714
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,080
Speaker 1: But if they really want to get the book, I

1715
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 1: would recommend they worked through Bush War Books. Can I

1716
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:28,519
Speaker 1: give you their way? Of dress www dot war Books,

1717
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:34,559
Speaker 1: dot c O, dot z D, dot cn A, dot

1718
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:38,599
Speaker 1: c O Charlie Oscar dot Zulu Alpha got it, dot

1719
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:42,679
Speaker 1: za okay, dot c dot z A okay. And remember also,

1720
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:46,599
Speaker 1: I know they took the entire print run. Sorry, so

1721
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 1: it's not going to hit the stores anytime soon, perfect,

1722
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,519
Speaker 1: But I just know that so many people who listen

1723
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:54,280
Speaker 1: to this are gonna want to read your work. And

1724
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:56,280
Speaker 1: if you, like I said, if you go to Amazon,

1725
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: your works are you know, up there for hundreds of

1726
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: dollars used. So this is people's chance to get it

1727
01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:05,880
Speaker 1: before it hits the US market for the wide release.

1728
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 1: For people who are interested in the doctrinal side of

1729
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:12,080
Speaker 1: this conversation and and warfare in Africa that we've been

1730
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 1: having with Evan, they should definitely go and pick up

1731
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: Composite Warfare because that really is like the manual of

1732
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:21,840
Speaker 1: warfare on the African continent. Can they still pick that

1733
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:27,520
Speaker 1: up though, I believe so. Yes, Yeah, I think it's available.

1734
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:32,320
Speaker 1: I think yeah. But anyway, thank you very much. It's

1735
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,400
Speaker 1: been a great pleasure to speak to you guys. Jack.

1736
01:44:35,520 --> 01:44:37,120
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you, and now I know what you

1737
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:39,519
Speaker 1: look like in real life. You too, have been. I

1738
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: hope you'll get let us drop us a line if

1739
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: you're ever passing through New York and uh, yeah, we'd

1740
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:47,800
Speaker 1: love to meet you in person. Sometimes I know I'm

1741
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:50,519
Speaker 1: not too welcome me, so I left your way for

1742
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:53,000
Speaker 1: you to come to South Africa. I would love to

1743
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 1: go and visit South Africa. Be a blast when you

1744
01:44:56,920 --> 01:45:01,240
Speaker 1: really you let me know you And thanks for the check. Yeah,

1745
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:03,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much. We'll have to do it again sometime. Eban,

1746
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:08,719
Speaker 1: thank you. Really enjoyed having Evan Barlow on and uh

1747
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 1: man just a wide array of what's going on in

1748
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:15,280
Speaker 1: Africa past to present. I mean we were speaking as

1749
01:45:15,720 --> 01:45:18,920
Speaker 1: recently as Benazi and beyond, and I didn't I didn't

1750
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:22,439
Speaker 1: know that his influence ran that far well. Evan Barlow,

1751
01:45:22,560 --> 01:45:25,040
Speaker 1: he I mean, he is an African security specialist. He

1752
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:28,680
Speaker 1: is an African. Uh He's spent so much time in

1753
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:31,479
Speaker 1: that world that there's he's just somebody who has his

1754
01:45:31,520 --> 01:45:34,080
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of what's going on over there

1755
01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,720
Speaker 1: better than you know anyone else I know, um, And

1756
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:40,360
Speaker 1: so I'm not surprised that he's able to go so

1757
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:43,080
Speaker 1: in depth and speak on such a wide range of

1758
01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:46,360
Speaker 1: different countries across the continent. But I mean, he really

1759
01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 1: knows his stuff, and it's a shame that more people

1760
01:45:49,520 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 1: aren't listening to what he's saying and receiving that message. Well,

1761
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, on that note, if you're someone who is

1762
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:59,000
Speaker 1: interested in what's going on in South Africa and the

1763
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:02,439
Speaker 1: region in general, and you like this interview, please do

1764
01:46:02,760 --> 01:46:05,560
Speaker 1: spread it out through your Facebook, through Twitter, through Instagram.

1765
01:46:05,560 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 1: All that helps. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, because

1766
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:11,599
Speaker 1: we've got to get our visibility up with you know,

1767
01:46:11,680 --> 01:46:14,519
Speaker 1: having great guests like this. We're the only podcast having

1768
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,800
Speaker 1: people on like Evan Barlow. Uh and go pick up

1769
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:22,160
Speaker 1: his book. I mean, honestly, his his memoir, Executive Outcomes

1770
01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:26,519
Speaker 1: Against All Odds. Is this very very unique opportunity to

1771
01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 1: read the autobiography, the professional memoirs of the CEO of

1772
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:37,519
Speaker 1: a large private military company dot conducted offensive operations. And

1773
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:39,840
Speaker 1: this is in the nineties through, you know, just a

1774
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. Um, there's not too many published

1775
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:47,599
Speaker 1: works that you can really go in reference on this topic.

1776
01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:50,679
Speaker 1: And he really details in that book all the ins

1777
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 1: and outs of being the CEO of this company and

1778
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:57,400
Speaker 1: a lot of unexpected hiccups and trials and tribulations everything

1779
01:46:57,400 --> 01:47:00,800
Speaker 1: in between. Um, So, I mean I read it years

1780
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: ago and I'm actually looking forward to I'm gonna go

1781
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 1: ahead and reread it and read the revised copy. Yeah,

1782
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,080
Speaker 1: it sounds like there's a lot of new material in there. Um.

1783
01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 1: Last episode, for those who didn't hear it, we had

1784
01:47:11,320 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: Ernie Emerson on, which brings us to Create Club because

1785
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 1: we've we've used Emerson knives in our Create clubs before

1786
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:21,599
Speaker 1: and sent those out And uh, if you're already a member,

1787
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:23,439
Speaker 1: I know of like the premium crate, we're gonna be

1788
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,519
Speaker 1: sending out at Emerson knife with that. I have an

1789
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 1: Emerson from one of the previous crates. Very cool. Yeah,

1790
01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:31,400
Speaker 1: I know, if you join right now you get an

1791
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 1: intro crate, Scott Wittner was telling me, so you might

1792
01:47:33,880 --> 01:47:36,960
Speaker 1: not get it um then, but yeah, we're gonna keep

1793
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:39,400
Speaker 1: doing work with them because they're great. And uh, I

1794
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:41,320
Speaker 1: feel like I have to have an Emerson knife now,

1795
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:45,120
Speaker 1: just beyond how how good they are. Hearing Ernie tell

1796
01:47:45,240 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: like the story of the craftsman craftsmanship that goes behind it. Um,

1797
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:52,160
Speaker 1: it just seems like such an awesome item to have.

1798
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:55,200
Speaker 1: So there's only one club out there with gear handpicked

1799
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Speaker 1: by special Operations, military veterans from several different branches and

1800
01:47:59,600 --> 01:48:02,600
Speaker 1: that of Horses. Create Club. Past items we've had in

1801
01:48:02,640 --> 01:48:05,960
Speaker 1: our premium crates have been a survival belt which includes

1802
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 1: a stainless steel knife, firestarter, bottle opener, and an LED flashlight.

1803
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 1: Great item. Um. We also had that e d C

1804
01:48:14,439 --> 01:48:18,519
Speaker 1: medikit put together by our friend Chris Tanto Toronto. Um.

1805
01:48:18,560 --> 01:48:20,800
Speaker 1: They're really stepping up their game with Create Club. Is

1806
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Speaker 1: progresses by putting out custom products that you're not going

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Speaker 1: to find anywhere else. So we have different tiers of

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Speaker 1: membership as I mentioned, depending on how prepared you want

1809
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Speaker 1: to be, and gift options are available as well. So

1810
01:48:33,280 --> 01:48:36,439
Speaker 1: you can check that all out at Create Club dot us.

1811
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Speaker 1: Once again, that's great Club dot us for your dog

1812
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Speaker 1: owners out there, check this out. You're gonna love it.

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1817
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Speaker 1: The products are US sourced, all natural and not only

1818
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Speaker 1: So whether you're talking to pitbull or at chihuahua, this

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Speaker 1: is just what you're looking for. You can see all

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Speaker 1: It's efficient for you. Your dog will appreciate it as well,

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Speaker 1: of course, and that's spelled c U n A dot

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Speaker 1: d O G. And as a reminder for those listening,

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Speaker 1: for a limited time you can receive a fifty percent

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Speaker 1: discounted membership to the spec Ops channel for only four

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Speaker 1: the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most

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Speaker 1: Training Sell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate

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Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch all of this content

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Speaker 1: by subscribing to the spec Ops channel at spec ops

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Speaker 1: channel dot com um and take advantage of a limited

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Speaker 1: time offer a fifty off your membership that's only four

1837
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Speaker 1: a month UM. And if you're a software team remember

1838
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Speaker 1: you could do that as well and it will be

1839
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,439
Speaker 1: included UM. The app is now available on iOS if

1840
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: you're an iPhone user. The Android version of the app

1841
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:22,880
Speaker 1: will be available early next month. Uh. Some last things

1842
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:26,160
Speaker 1: to mention here, may our friend Leo Jenkins is going

1843
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:27,880
Speaker 1: to be in town in New York City to do

1844
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:32,559
Speaker 1: the Versus and Curses tour of veterans doing poetry, short

1845
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,120
Speaker 1: stories of combat and that type of thing. And I

1846
01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 1: know that Jack, you're gonna be reading there. Um, I

1847
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:40,600
Speaker 1: just spoke to Jim West who says he wants to

1848
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:44,120
Speaker 1: read something. Yeah, so come by if you're in New

1849
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 1: York City, May on Memorial Day at Emil Luney's all

1850
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:52,600
Speaker 1: of the details if you follow Leo's Instagram. Um, I

1851
01:50:52,640 --> 01:50:54,720
Speaker 1: believe he's just at Leo Jenkinson might be let me

1852
01:50:54,920 --> 01:50:58,559
Speaker 1: see exactly. Um, and they have their own as well,

1853
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:03,280
Speaker 1: but yeah, he's at Leo Underscore Jenkins on Instagram. Give

1854
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:05,280
Speaker 1: Leo a follow and you check all of that out.

1855
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:07,920
Speaker 1: Leo is also gonna be on with us right before

1856
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:14,400
Speaker 1: it's so looking at the schedule here, Um yeah, he'll

1857
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 1: be on actually in a week. So we'll have Leo

1858
01:51:17,240 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 1: on next week to talk more in depth. But New

1859
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:21,880
Speaker 1: York City is just the first stop they're gonna be

1860
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:24,599
Speaker 1: doing the whole East coast. So if you check out

1861
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 1: Leo's Instagram at Leo Underscore Jenkins, you'll see like all

1862
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:30,320
Speaker 1: the other dates that they're doing. Uh, so come out

1863
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:32,519
Speaker 1: and support veterans. And if you come to the New

1864
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:36,360
Speaker 1: York City one, um, I'll be happy to meet here

1865
01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:38,639
Speaker 1: as along with Jack. Along with Jack as well of course,

1866
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:41,320
Speaker 1: and uh you'll see Jim West. So plenty of guys

1867
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:44,400
Speaker 1: that you've heard on the show will be there next episode.

1868
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:47,800
Speaker 1: It's been a really long time since we've had id

1869
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:51,880
Speaker 1: F veteran and uh Hollywood film writer Dan Gordon on

1870
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:55,160
Speaker 1: and he actually just got back from Israel, So I'd

1871
01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:57,519
Speaker 1: love to hear the perspective from someone who is just

1872
01:51:57,720 --> 01:52:00,920
Speaker 1: there of what's going on on the ound. Um. We

1873
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:03,639
Speaker 1: often talk about this stuff, but like it is important

1874
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:06,080
Speaker 1: to have specialists on, just like we just did with

1875
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:10,840
Speaker 1: Evan Barlow, Um, people who know the region. And uh,

1876
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, Dan has been there and done that and

1877
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: is also a great writer. And I know a lot

1878
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: of people picked up his Day of the Dead books

1879
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:21,639
Speaker 1: because of the podcast. Like just really exciting guys here

1880
01:52:21,680 --> 01:52:24,439
Speaker 1: from and I liked Dan and even before I ever

1881
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:27,439
Speaker 1: knew Dan, the hurricane with Denzel Washington. I thought it

1882
01:52:27,439 --> 01:52:29,160
Speaker 1: was like one of the best movies ever and he

1883
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:32,960
Speaker 1: wrote that, So yeah, he's an impressive guy. Wyatt earp

1884
01:52:33,080 --> 01:52:35,640
Speaker 1: Um with Kevin Costner was written by him, and of

1885
01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:37,840
Speaker 1: course I like to mention every time he's on surf

1886
01:52:37,960 --> 01:52:41,559
Speaker 1: Ninjine that was written by Dan Gordon. So it's just

1887
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:43,760
Speaker 1: I think it's cool to hear from these people who

1888
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:48,680
Speaker 1: have such a um diverse background between you know, who

1889
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:50,639
Speaker 1: would think the guy who wrote those movies was also

1890
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:52,599
Speaker 1: an idea of sniper Like I think it's just kind

1891
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:56,400
Speaker 1: of cool. Um, Well, this was This has been awesome.

1892
01:52:56,800 --> 01:52:59,759
Speaker 1: Uh really enjoyed speaking to Evan for the first time,

1893
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 1: and I know this is something that was in the

1894
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:04,639
Speaker 1: works for you for a very long time. And someone

1895
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 1: who's work that you read for many years. Yeah, someone

1896
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:10,479
Speaker 1: I mean, quite frankly, I admire the work he does

1897
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:15,000
Speaker 1: and how effective his operations have been. I mean I

1898
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:18,639
Speaker 1: wasn't kidding. I mean executive outcomes and step they squared

1899
01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:22,679
Speaker 1: off with some really bad people, like objectively really bad people,

1900
01:53:23,200 --> 01:53:26,519
Speaker 1: and they've been very effective. Um, and yeah, it's a

1901
01:53:26,520 --> 01:53:29,639
Speaker 1: shame that, you know, the United States doesn't work closely

1902
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:32,920
Speaker 1: figure out some way that you know, we can integrate

1903
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:36,040
Speaker 1: or maybe you'll never totally be able to unify your efforts,

1904
01:53:36,040 --> 01:53:38,519
Speaker 1: but I think there's some joint work that could be

1905
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:41,320
Speaker 1: done there. Yeah, it sounds like it, and it sounds

1906
01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:43,600
Speaker 1: like maybe it's like a thing of pride as you

1907
01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:46,320
Speaker 1: kind of hinted at that that they don't want someone

1908
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:49,120
Speaker 1: else to receive credit for giving us the on the

1909
01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:51,600
Speaker 1: ground intel of what's really going on. I think what

1910
01:53:51,680 --> 01:53:54,760
Speaker 1: it comes down to is they want Ebben out so

1911
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 1: that we can go in um and so it can

1912
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,240
Speaker 1: be our our baby, so that we can try to

1913
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:03,160
Speaker 1: keep control over what's going on. I think it's really

1914
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:07,720
Speaker 1: just silly, naive, woid and go about business. Yeah. Alright, Well,

1915
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:10,639
Speaker 1: we appreciate you guys checking this out as always. You're

1916
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:13,879
Speaker 1: such a loyal audience and love receiving all the positive

1917
01:54:14,320 --> 01:54:17,719
Speaker 1: feedback and you know even sometimes the negative feedback, uh

1918
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:20,720
Speaker 1: and and checking out the reviews um as always send

1919
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 1: us an email soft rep dot radio at soft rep

1920
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 1: dot com, leave us a review, follow us, and we're out.

1921
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:37,640
Speaker 1: You've been listening to self rep Radio. New episodes up

1922
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:41,000
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1923
01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:44,400
Speaker 1: from our veteran journalists join us and become a team

1924
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 1: room member today at soft rep dot com. Follow the

1925
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Speaker 1: show on Instagram and Twitter at solf Rep Radio, and

1926
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:54,880
Speaker 1: be sure to also check out the Power of Thought

1927
01:54:55,000 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 1: podcast hosted by Hurricane Group CEO and Navy Seals Snipe

1928
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 1: instructor Brandon Webb.