1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Claire and this is 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: about an important character with whom you may not be familiar, 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Mary Pinchot Meyer. 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: Mary Pinchot Meyer was a DC socialite, artist and confirmed 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 2: mistress of President John F. Kennedy. While walking near her 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: studio on October twelfth, nineteen sixty four, she was murdered 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 2: in broad daylight, less than a year after JFK's assassination. 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 2: The man initially accused of shooting her was acquitted, and 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: the case has been unsolved ever since. Like all of 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: the untimely deaths in the Kennedy universe, hers has been 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: the subject of immense speculation and conspiracy theories. Did we 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: mention she was married to a Ciao. 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: To help us decouple fact from fiction. Today we are 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: joined by investigative journalist and author of A Very Private Woman, 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: The Life and Unsolved Murder of Presidential Mistress Mary Meyer, 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: Nina Burley. 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: Nina, Welcome to the United States of Kennedy. 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: So before we get into the nitty gritty of the 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: details of this story that somehow Julia and I had 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: not really heard of in great detail before, which is 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: crazy considering to have been talking about the Kennedys now 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: for many, many months. I want to know you wrote 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: the book in nineteen ninety eight. You are still very 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: much one of the experts people turned to when they 29 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: talk about this case. We just listened to you on 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: the Solidad O'Brien podcast that came out a few years ago. 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: So clearly Mary Meyer has defined a big chunk of 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: your professional life. We were wondering what initially got you 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: interested in her? 34 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, So I was working at Time, you know, 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: one of those paper legacy magazines, and Ben Bradley had 36 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: published his memoir, and in those days, Time and Newsweek 37 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: were in competition, and every Monday you'd go in and 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 3: you'd open the other guy, see what the other you know, 39 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: brand X had done. And they had excerpted Bradley's memoir 40 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 3: and I read it, and you know, I'm a young 41 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: journalist then, and I you know, I was Watergate. I 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 3: knew about Watergate, was one of those child you know, 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 3: when I was a kid like an influencing thing that 44 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: you know. Ben Bradley hero Watergate brought down Nixon, and 45 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 3: I read the memoir and I saw that he you know, 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: the piece of the memoir that they put out was 47 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: the piece where he talks about his sister in law's murder. 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 3: And in the memoir he talks about what happened the 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: night of the murder and how he and his wife, 50 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: Mary Meyer's sister went to Mary Meyer's art studio in 51 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: Georgetown and found James Jesus Angleton, the legendary CIA counter 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: intelligence chief and very weird dude, at the door picking 53 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: a lock, and they realized he was looking for this diary, which, 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: by the way, that's why they were there. They had 55 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 3: been tipped off that there was a diary and that 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: maybe they wouldn't want the police to have it. So, 57 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: according to Bradley, they found the diary, they scanned through it. 58 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: It was mostly just paint swatches, but there was some 59 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: mention of Kennedy and her relationship to Kennedy, and they 60 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: let Angleton walk off with this diary and he never 61 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: spoke of it, even though he testified at the trial. 62 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: And a guy was on trial for murder, and he 63 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: never said, by the way, there was this deep interest 64 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: by the top Connor intelligence chief of the CIA in 65 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: her diary, and he knew that when he was on 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: the stand, and he didn't report it to the police. 67 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: So you know, my little journalist antenna go up. And 68 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: that sounded pretty weird to me. And I started talking 69 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: to some of the old folks around the time bureau 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: who knew him and had been around that in those days, 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 3: and I said, what's up with this. I've never had 72 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: heard of this. Who is this person marrying? Why on 73 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 3: earth would the father of Watergate keep secret this interaction 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 3: with the chief intelligence agent when somebody's on trial for murder. 75 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: And the older people there who had been around during 76 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: the Kennedy years said, well, oh, yeah, we all know 77 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 3: the story of Mary Meyer, but nobody wanted to write 78 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: about it while Jackie was alive. They nobody had wanted 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: to sort of bring up this embarrassing situation for her. 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 3: So there still was this kind of inside the club 81 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: thing going on. And that was really the first time 82 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 3: that I understood or had an inkling of, like how 83 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: the Washington elite and the Georgetown set in the Cold War, 84 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 3: in the Kennedy years consisted of these people who were 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: they're winning. Them are World War Two veterans, but they're 86 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: you know, the cops, the CIA, the spies, the ambassadors, 87 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 3: the diplomats, the journalists and the elected officials were all 88 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: kind of on the same side in certain ways, and 89 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 3: they wouldn't tell on each other. They kept each other's secrets, 90 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: which was so different from what was going on when 91 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: I was in Washington, because that's when Monica Lewinsky was 92 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: being revealed, as you know, the blue dress and the 93 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 3: flashing the thong and everything's fair game, right. So that's 94 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: the long story how I got into it. I thought 95 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: this is really interesting, and I had an agent who 96 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 3: was looking to sell books about Washington, and she said, oh, 97 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 3: I can probably sell that, and she did. It was 98 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: my first book project, and you're right, it was pretty 99 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 3: sum and all because I was young journalist and I 100 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 3: got to do something that I'd always wanted to do, 101 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 3: which is write a book. And I've written many books 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: since then, but it was the first book that I 103 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 3: wrote and it was a big deal for me, and 104 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: I do get asked questions about it still. 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, clearly you're here today with us and as George said, 106 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: neither he nor I really knew anything about her before 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: we started doing the research for this episode. So we 108 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: suspect that many of our listeners will be in the 109 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: same boat. So without a nine, could you you just 110 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: set the scene, tell us a little bit about who 111 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: Mary Meyer was and her family, her upbringing, and the 112 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: person who she became. 113 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: Sure well, Mary Pinchot was born Mary Pinchot in nineteen 114 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: twenty I believe corenty or twenty four. She was born 115 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 3: to a wealthy family American aristocracy, the Pinchot family. They 116 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: had Pennsylvania money. They also had a New York Kark 117 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 3: Avenue apartment. They were sort of early I guess liberals. 118 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: Pinchot Gifford Pinchot was an uncle, and he was out west. 119 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: I think he was a governor out there. I think 120 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: he was in the Roosevelt administration. He founded the National 121 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 3: Forest Service. There's a heat there're huge national park out 122 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: there named after him. One of her other relatives like 123 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: wrote the traffic rules for when cars first came to 124 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: New York City. Can you imagine like cars are driving 125 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: around with horses and there was no there's nothing, There 126 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 3: were no light, electric lights or you can't turn and 127 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 3: right right on red. This guy like wrote those. So 128 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: there were civic minded people. Her father was kind of 129 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: a notorious like anti Well America first or type. Even 130 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 3: though he had kind of liberal leanings, he was revealed 131 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 3: as being sort of anti Semitic before the Second World War. 132 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: Her mother was a left wing woman. When she was born. 133 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: Her mother was a journalist, really interesting character, hung out 134 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: in Greenwich Village, wrote for the Nation. So the Mary 135 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: Meyer and her sister Tony Antoinette are these beautiful daughters 136 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: of Gifford Pinchot and Ruth and they grow up, you know, 137 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: in New York City, Manhattan splendor. They go to the 138 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: best schools, they go to Vesser and again it's part 139 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 3: of this clique of aristos American aristocrats. So she gets 140 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: to know John Kennedy quite early on at high school dance. 141 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: I guess they're at prep school and they meet each 142 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: other and they become young friends and maybe, you know, 143 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: people would say, you know, Jack fell in love with 144 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: her immediately. Who knows, they were close, but they were 145 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 3: part of the same group of people, right, and then 146 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: World War Two comes and you know, that's like the 147 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: big break for that generation that was born in nineteen 148 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: twenty and twenty four. That's a huge One of the 149 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: things I really learned from the from doing the research 150 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: is how traumatic World War two was for them for people. 151 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 3: You know, imagine you're like twenty twenty one, twenty two, 152 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, you know, Hitler's invading Czechoslovakia 153 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 3: or sorry, our Czechoslovakia, Poland, Poland, Yes, he invades Poland, 154 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: and you know, that is it. The boys go off 155 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: that they're young men into this meat grinder, and the women, 156 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 3: you know, they're staying home. And so Mary, if she 157 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: goes to Vassar, she becomes a journalist in New York. 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 3: She has like a romance with some other journalist guy 159 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: who I guess he wasn't able to go to war. 160 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: Most of them were at war. And then comes the 161 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: married DearS cord Meyer, who is Meyer is another wealthy 162 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: family in New York. 163 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 4: They had made a lot of money in property on 164 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 4: Long Island, huge property owners. He comes back from the 165 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 4: war and he's a war hero. His eye was blown 166 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 4: out on one of the Pacific islands. He was a marine, 167 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 4: so of course hero. 168 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: And he's young and he's dashing and he wears an 169 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 3: eyepatch and she falls for this guy. So there now 170 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: they get married and they go to Washington. Why did 171 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 3: they go to Washington Because after World War Two, this 172 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: generation of upper class American veterans, many of them were 173 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 3: attracted to doing public service for the country. They went 174 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 3: down there because for Cordmire was invited to become a 175 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 3: part of the nascent CIA. And the CIA at that 176 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: time is off the books. It's basically run out of 177 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: a quantt hut on the mall. It's off the books. 178 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 3: It's black budget black. This is where you get the 179 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: very beginning of the CIA. It's cor Admire, it's Alan Dulles, 180 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 3: It's the guys who conceived of the Bay of Pigs, 181 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 3: and communism was the whole, the whole thing. Whole point 182 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 3: was like keep the Russians of Bay, and America's duty 183 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: is to like patrol the whole planet because we've just 184 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: gone through this trauma and oh yeah, don't forget the 185 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: world that the Adam bomb had been dropped in Japan. 186 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 3: And for that generation, that really was almost like a 187 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: psychic break because they understood, like we were born into 188 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: that era, so we're like, yeah, humans can blow up 189 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: the world, right, we can destroy ourselves. It was really 190 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: a psychic break for them in some way, and because 191 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: they understood like, oh my god, Russians are going to 192 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: get this bomb. We're in a race we can obliterate 193 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, unheard of amounts of firepower now. 194 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: And so a lot of the men who came back 195 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 3: from World War to, like her husband, were motivated by 196 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 3: this idea of like, we can keep the world under control. 197 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 3: And they were also super PTSD from the war. PTSD 198 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 3: was not a thing then, was not a people didn't 199 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: talk about it. It was man up, you know, nineteen fifties, 200 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: and a lot of these guys were smoking, smoking, smoking, smoking, 201 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: and three Martina lunches and just you know, medicating themselves. 202 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 3: So the wives of these men they're in World there 203 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 3: now they're in Georgetown, and it's like this clique of 204 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: women who have gone to white shoes schools are men 205 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: who would have been white shoe law firms or banks 206 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 3: who are now working for the CIA. And Bradley is 207 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: one of them. I mean he's not in the CIA, 208 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: but he was definitely connected to the OSS when he 209 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: was in Europe. And so there's this group of women 210 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 3: who are like married to these guys. They're damaged with 211 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: PTSD and they're like, you know, socialites, they're hosting dinners, 212 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 3: they have money. The ones that were still alive when 213 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: I interviewed them, they had these amazing accents, Like they 214 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: talked like nineteen thirties movie actresses. 215 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: Like a Transatlantic accent. 216 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, Nina. And it's also like Long Island Lockshaw Darling, Dolling. 217 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 3: Jack was just such a flood and had of affair 218 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: with Jack, and you know, that's how they talked. 219 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 220 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:36,479 Speaker 1: this break. 221 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: And we're back with more United States of Kennedy. 222 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: So I wanted to take just one second to talk 223 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: about the Georgetown social scene because this was, as Julia 224 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: mentioned before, one of the more fascinating elements of this 225 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: just historically. I mean, we have this list of people 226 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: that were kind of in Mary in Chord's circle. So 227 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: you mentioned Ben Bradley, who was married to Mary's younger sister, 228 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: Tony Bradley at the time was the Washington DC bureau 229 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: chief for Newsweek before he you know, went to the 230 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: Post Angleton who you mentioned, and his wife, Cecily were 231 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: also two of the meyers closest friends. Angleton was the 232 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: head of count Intelligence at the CIA. James Truett worked 233 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: for Life magazine and Time magazine. He was also part 234 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: of that circle, and his wife Anne was Mary's best friend. 235 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: Then we have Catherine Graham, who was the publisher of 236 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, Dean adjescend Into, the former Secretary of State, 237 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: and Frank Wisner, Court's propaganda boss at the CIA. And then, 238 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,479 Speaker 1: of course, in nineteen fifty four, the Meyers got new neighbors, 239 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: Senator John F. Kennedy and his wife Jacqueline, So that 240 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: was in nineteen fifty four, before JFK was president. They 241 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: were suddenly neighbors with the Kennedys, and they were the 242 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: Kennedys assimilated into this pre existing friend group and social scene. 243 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that she first met JFK when they 244 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: were both in high school at a chot dance, but 245 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: then didn't really interact with him until later on when 246 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: they were neighbors. So what was her relationship with JFK 247 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: like when they met again as adults. 248 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 3: Well, I'm not quite sure. I can't remember when they 249 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: actually met again. They had interactions over the years and 250 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: obviously when he gets to Washington, they're all invited to 251 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: these same parties in Georgetown. I know that her husband, 252 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 3: Cord felt competitive with Kennedy even before they had the 253 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: same I mean, she wasn't. I don't think she was 254 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: cheating on coord with Kennedy. I think that at some 255 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 3: point she cooked up with them after they were divorced. 256 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: But Coord felt that he was kind of, you know, 257 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 3: because he was in the CIA, because all of his 258 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: great deeds for the country were by necessity secret, he 259 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: wasn't going to get the accolades that he should get 260 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 3: the way Kennedy was, and so there was this deep 261 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: anger and unhappiness about the situation, I think, and you know, 262 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: it's kind of spurred him. And then what happened was 263 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: they lost a child. There was a car accident and 264 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: the middle child died, and that kind of crashed their 265 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 3: relationship eventually, and they divorced. And she was still young 266 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 3: and beautiful. She's in her mid forties, young forties, and 267 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 3: that's when she starts to look up with Kennedy. And 268 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: of course, as you guys know, since she was doing this, 269 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: that Kennedy was really a sex addict. I guess moving 270 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 3: young women or any women of any age in the 271 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: front door and out the back door of the White House. 272 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: And so Mary, who's basically not an intern, who's more 273 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: of his class, social classes, somebody that he held around 274 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: with more. And people would say, you know, the ones 275 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: I interviewed. Some would say, you know, he really was 276 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 3: in love with her. She was just his type completely. 277 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: She was this ethereal blonde fun to be with, flirty 278 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: and smart and had a great education and sexy and 279 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 3: kind of avant garde for that crowd, right she was. 280 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: She was the one who was dropping acid with Tothy 281 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: Leary and like proto hippie kind of person. 282 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: Right. 283 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: But long before hippies were hippies, there was this kind 284 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: of evant guard of the intelligentsia. And that's the seeds 285 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: of the sixties are in that group. They weren't religious people. 286 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 3: They were they had dispensed with that. They were Freudian, 287 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: they were into psychoanalysis, they were listening to jazz. They 288 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: considered themselves culturally sophisticated. A lot of them have been 289 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 3: to Europe. Obviously, the men had been there and they 290 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 3: were multi lingual, and so they're sophisticated. Intelligentsia, and they're 291 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 3: the Kremvilla crme of American you know, the elite, and 292 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: they're running the world from this point in Washington. 293 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: So they're kind of like the bepics of the nineteen fifties, 294 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: like an early counterculture who are also kind of intermingling 295 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: with CIA operatives. 296 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: I know, That's what's so fascinating. It's like, she is 297 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: this interesting, progressive artistic woman. She ends up fully committing 298 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: to her art practice and becoming this sort of emerging artist. 299 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: She has pretty left wing views depending on who you ask, 300 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: and yet the two most important romantic relationships in her 301 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: life are with a CIA operative and with the President 302 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: of the United States. It's such a fascinating unique story. 303 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: Well, also in Noland, who was actually a New York 304 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: Colors School artist and considered to be one of the 305 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: modern artists of that era, somewhat a minor but well 306 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: known at the time. But I wouldn't go so far 307 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: as to say they were beatnik. That would be a 308 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 3: step beyond there really are you know, elites, they're capitalists, hardcore. 309 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: These people are coming from American fortunes and they're capitalists. 310 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 3: You know, she might have been breaking away from that 311 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 3: and been, as you say, leaning to the left. And 312 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 3: some of them would have been leaning to the left 313 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: I think. I mean obviously that ones that McCarthy was 314 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: going after were you know, considered to be communists by 315 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: the standards of that day, and some of them were hardcaring, 316 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 3: I guess. But this group, you know, they were pretty 317 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: conservative in there. 318 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: They remind me almost of you know, the sort of 319 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: upper East Side set that, on the one hand, is 320 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: very wealthy and well to do, but then we'll host 321 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: fundraisers for some sort of progressive cause. 322 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 3: I think that's probably a better analogy than the Beatnik. 323 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: Okay, so we kind of I've laid the foundation of 324 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: how Mary Pinchot and jfk met and how they met 325 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: again some twenty years later when their affair began. How 326 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: serious was it and how long did it last? 327 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 3: Well, let's see, he's in the White House. It was 328 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: certainly going on in like sixty two, sixty one. Sixty 329 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: two certainly wasn't when he before he was president. So 330 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: he's elected in sixty That means he starts in the 331 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 3: White House in sixty one. What was the depth of it, 332 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: I guess, Well, again, he's i don't like to use 333 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: the word womanizer. I mean more like a sex addict. 334 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 3: He really was, like, you know, insatiable. He had to have. 335 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: Like these young women coming through all the interns in 336 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 3: later years would tell stories about how he was pushing 337 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 3: himself on them. And there was just a lot of women, 338 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 3: you know, Marilyn Monroe was around, and Judith Exner and 339 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: all kinds of women in and out of the White House. 340 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: And you know, so he's married to Jackie, but Mary 341 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: also his friend with Jackie, Like she's part of their crowd. 342 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: So she would show up, you know, she'd probably be 343 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: in the parties that they were having. In fact, Jackie 344 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: being again this is like the sophisticated crowd, she kind 345 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 3: of knew what was going on, and she would see 346 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 3: Mary next to jack to keep him entertained. I mean, 347 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 3: she kind of knew that this was like, I mean, 348 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that they were collamorous, but at some 349 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: level that's what was going on. So they were I 350 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: think they were having sort of frolic but also are 351 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: kind of a somewhat intellectual connection. 352 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what seems to be the main difference between 353 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: her and some of the other women that have come 354 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: up in. 355 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: Judith Exter or somebody like that. She was educated and 356 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: she was avant garde in a way that he would 357 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: have thought was cool. 358 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: And it did last pretty consistently for almost two years. 359 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm reading here in our research doc Mary 360 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: signed in to see the president officially fifteen times between 361 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: October nineteen sixty one and August nineteen sixty three, almost 362 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: exclusively when Jackie was out of town. So that's, you know, 363 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: betrays sort of a pretty consistent affair. And then of 364 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: course there's hairsay that, you know, there's there's other people 365 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: that say it was even more. I mean it says 366 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: a decade later, journalist James trud, whose wife Anne was 367 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: Mary's close friend and fellow artist, claimed that Mary was 368 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: chauffeur to the White House by a secret Service driver 369 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: two to three nights a week. Now, that seems extreme 370 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: to me, but I mean, you know, oftentimes with these 371 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: kinds of stories, are some some truth to it. If 372 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: it wasn't two to three nights a week, maybe it 373 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: was two to three nights a month. 374 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 3: Right, I'm the one actually who got that number. I 375 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 3: went to the Kennedy Library and you could see the 376 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 3: sign in I'm sure that I looked at the Jackie 377 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 3: travel and then those states and that's how we came 378 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 3: up with that. But yeah, there probably were more more interactions, 379 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: for sure. So, as we've discussed jack his laciviousness was 380 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 3: very well known and it's something that remains part of 381 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 3: his public image today. And this is actually one of 382 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 3: the few affairs that has hard evidence attached to it, 383 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: not only the White House logs, but also an authenticated 384 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: letter that he wrote to her asking her to come 385 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 3: visit him at the Cape or in Boston. So it's 386 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 3: beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why do you think. 387 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 2: We haven't heard more about her or why do you 388 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: think that her affair is less well known than someone 389 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: like Marilyn Monroe, who it seems like has less definitive evidence. 390 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess I think 391 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 3: my book should have been more widely read. 392 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: That's a perfect answer. 393 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know. 394 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 3: Why I wasn't a bestseller. I should have been a bestseller, 395 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: I think because if people were that interested in Kennedy, 396 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: then I think one of the reasons my book didn't 397 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: sell is that I wasn't one hundred percent down with 398 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 3: the conspiracy theory or for murder. People really really attached 399 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: themselves to that idea, And the other is, well, look, celebrities, 400 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: I guess Marilyn Monroe is much more. There's more salacious 401 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 3: attention to that because actually, there are a lot of 402 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: other women who you're not mentioning, these interns and young 403 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: women who were around. If you go into the record 404 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 3: and look, you'll see that they were writing books and 405 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 3: talking about it years later, and you can find them 406 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: having been interviewed and talked about it. So I just 407 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 3: think she didn't have the star power that Marylyn. 408 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: Sure, and we should mention there is one of the 409 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: most famous Kennedy books that people keep recommending is Ask 410 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: Not the Kennedy's and the Women They Destroyed, which is 411 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: sort of one of those off cited books about women 412 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: that became collateral damage over the years. 413 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: That's the Mariene Callahan book. 414 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, yeah, But I'm glad you brought up the 415 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: actual crime at the center of this story, and it's 416 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: time we actually approached it head on. So it is 417 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: now a few months after JFK's assassination, Mary Meyer has 418 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: recommitted to her our practice. She is a working artist. 419 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: She has a studio in DC. What can you tell 420 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: us about the actual logistics of the murder itself. 421 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 3: Well, it's definitely more than a few months after the murder. 422 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 3: I mean, he's assassinated in. 423 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: What November of sixty three and. 424 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 3: She dies in October of sixty four. And the incident 425 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: that everybody remembers that preceded it most closely is that 426 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 3: she was murdered ten days after the Warren Commission report 427 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 3: came out. That's the spark for the conspiracy theorists because 428 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 3: you know what the Warren Commission report. I'm sure you've 429 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: talked about it on your show. You know, it's been challenged, repeatedly, 430 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 3: explored and investigated, and still to this day, people don't 431 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 3: agree on it. And so the idea was that this 432 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: thing came out and she knew something, and that since 433 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 3: she knew something, that's the conspiracy theory is based on 434 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: that that this this you know, here's the Warren Commission report. 435 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 3: It says it's just you know, this one lone gunman, 436 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 3: crazy guy, and yet Mary Meyer knows something and that 437 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 3: she must die. That's the conspiracy theory. And I like 438 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: a conspiracy murder as much as anyone else. I also, 439 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 3: I'm stuck with my journalistic training that you know, you 440 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 3: have to have the fact. So I couldn't find the 441 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 3: evidence that she would have doned something that they would 442 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: have had to kill her for. That's my problem with 443 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 3: that theory. You know. One of the theories is, oh, 444 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: she did acid with Timothy Leary, which Leary says in 445 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: his book. And I interviewed Leary like two months before 446 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: he died. It was fascinating in Santa Monica as he 447 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: was basically on his deathbed, and he says that she 448 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: came to his office at Harvard and said, I want 449 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: to turn on powerful men or something. That's his memory 450 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: of it. So the acid that you know, Johnny Appleseed 451 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: or Mary apple Seed of acid conspiracy theories that she 452 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 3: turned him on to LSD, which then turned him on 453 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 3: to World Peace, which then provoked him to be more 454 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 3: pacific towards the Cubans, and that then of course he 455 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 3: had to die because he was about ready to say 456 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 3: to the Russians and the Cubans, hey we're all friends, 457 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 3: or no more military industrial conflicts. So you got you know, 458 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: they're going to ate the military industrial complex aated him 459 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 3: the Cuban mafia, the Cuban sadum, and he has to go, right, 460 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 3: that's the theory about why he dies. And then she 461 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 3: sort of is thrown in there like, well, she did 462 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: acid with them, and she knows she was turning him 463 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 3: onto world peace. Maybe it was even because she gave 464 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: acid that he suddenly saw the world in a different way. 465 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: Why can't we get I'll get along kind of way? 466 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 3: And so she knew that, and then after the Warren 467 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: Commission report comes out, somehow she needs to die. 468 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: Right. So it's as far as I can tell, the 469 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: two theories which are interconnected, or either that Mary guides 470 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: JFK through an acid trip that then turns him onto 471 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: pacifism as a sort of worldview. Then he no longer 472 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: wants to be as aggressive in terms of, you know, 473 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: his foreign policy and in terms of American power, and 474 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: that's why he has to die. And then the other theory, 475 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: which again is related, is this idea that because of 476 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: her connections and because of her relationship JFK, she knew 477 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: a lot about to say a secrets and was openly 478 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: critical of the CIA in a way that seemed dangerous 479 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: to people. 480 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 3: Yes, and also because she was so close to the 481 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 3: CIA that she knew something about the murder, because there's 482 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: that sort of train of the conspiracy theories, the CIA 483 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 3: was involved in a murder and therefore because of Cordmyer 484 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 3: and her sort of uncontrollable woman kind of act like 485 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 3: because she was, you know, of a guard and doing 486 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: drugs and having fun and not you know, on the 487 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 3: right side of the program, that the CIA thought she 488 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 3: would blab something that she maybe knew about the CIA's 489 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: murder and that that would be why James Ingleton wanted 490 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: the diary. So you have to think about what was 491 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 3: going on, like and I found the as you see, 492 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: I think and again I found the society and the 493 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: social scene there so fascinating because you know, we live 494 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 3: in a time now where Washington's very polarized. It's totally different, 495 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 3: and you know, yes it's full of intrigue, but there 496 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 3: was something about this group because was the bomb. The 497 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: nuclear bomb was like a shadow over everything. It was terrifying. 498 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 3: We're used to it now, but then it's like and 499 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 3: actually it was brinksmanship and there was you know, there 500 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: was this tension with the Russians and there were spies 501 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 3: in Russia, Russian spies in Washington and American spies in Russia, 502 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 3: and the CIA was all over everything, and they were 503 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 3: spy ver spy, that's what that was. And so you know, 504 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: it is conceivable, I guess that she may have been 505 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 3: somehow co opted by Russian spies or you know, I mean, 506 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 3: if you want to go down that road. But there's 507 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 3: no evidence of it. And I tried and tried and 508 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: tried to find, like from all the friends that I 509 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: could talk to who were still alive, did she ever 510 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: evince interest in that kind of thing? Did she ever 511 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: say anything to you? And I came to I don't 512 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 3: think she was the kind of person who was like 513 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: really that into that kind of intrigue and that I 514 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 3: think she was more happy, go lucky, social, You had 515 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 3: a decent spirit and you know, a good spirit, and 516 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: you know, was progressive. But I'm not sure that she 517 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 3: was somebody that anybody would share the secrets with, like 518 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 3: that kind of a secret like, hey, guess what, you know, 519 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 3: the Russian spy is next door or whatever. And so 520 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 3: that's one of my problems with the theory. 521 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're obviously painting this portrait of just paranoia 522 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: permeating every kind of interaction, and you know, just even 523 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: permeating like simple news gathering. Like there's always this suspicion 524 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: that everyone has an ulterior motive, which makes me think 525 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: like even if she wasn't that type of person, would 526 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: just the paranoia that she could be be enough for 527 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: that to happen. 528 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: And that's a really good point. And what I have 529 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 3: not said to you is that I often think of 530 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 3: this as like, when I think of this as like 531 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: a TV show or something, it's like the mad Men 532 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: of the A Bomb because the way they treated women, 533 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: the way they thought of women, it was like ass 534 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 3: pinching and grab them and throw you know, wham bam, 535 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 3: thank you ma'am. That group of men, I mean, they 536 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,239 Speaker 3: just didn't have like the sense that, you know, what 537 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 3: you would could fide in. I don't think, but yes, 538 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 3: she could be in the mold of like Martha Mitchell. 539 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 3: Martha Mitchell was like up, she went off the rails, 540 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: you know, and she needs to be medicated and like 541 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 3: secreted away somewhere because she's gonna tell everything about the 542 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 3: plumbers or whatever it was that they knew. 543 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: I thought of Martha Mitchell when I was doing the 544 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 2: research for this, I think it's hard not to. 545 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the rogue woman theory, hope she's out 546 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 3: of control, And again that is a valid theory, I think, 547 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 3: and I balanced that off against my sense of who 548 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: she was when I was interviewing people, and also my 549 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: research into the accused, who I think probably did do it. 550 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 3: And I know that people disagree with that, but I 551 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 3: think he went on to a life of pretty spectacular crimes. 552 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break. Stay with us, 553 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: and we're back with United States of Kennedy. 554 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about the murder itself. It 555 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: happened on October twelfth, nineteen sixty four, which, as we said, 556 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: is less than a year after JFK is murdered. So 557 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: I would love to hear you said the scene and 558 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: describe the murder itself, any eyewitnesses, and the investigation that 559 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: unfolded thereafter. 560 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 3: Okay, So Mary Meyer had just recently turned I believe 561 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: forty four. She was in her studio painting. She was 562 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: in the habit of taking a walk on the towpath 563 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 3: along the canal that runs through Georgetown. To this day, 564 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: it's a nice park, and at that time it was 565 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 3: not a nice park. The area was pretty rough, and 566 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: you know, you have to put into context here is 567 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: that this period of time is really the beginning of 568 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 3: urban crime, and there's civil rights things were starting to happen, 569 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 3: but there was also a lot of tension. There's racial 570 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 3: tension going on. And she takes a walk from her 571 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 3: house down into the towpath, which is below street level. 572 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 3: It's like a park. There's water down there, and a 573 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: black truck driver had stopped on the upper part of 574 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 3: the road. And here's this someone helped me, Someone helped me, scream, 575 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 3: looks down s he's a white woman and what he 576 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: says a black man of a certain height and weight 577 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: struggling and he calls the police come and they find 578 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 3: her shot. She's been shot close range, head and chest, 579 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: and she's lying there instead. And the police go on 580 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: a manhunt looking for this person who the truck driver 581 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: has eyewitnessed, and they find Ray Crump, who had recently 582 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 3: been released from jail, who was known to the police 583 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 3: as like a kind of a vagrant, and he had 584 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: drinking problems, and they pick him up. He's got no 585 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 3: shirt on. I think he's soaking wet and he's been. 586 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: He tells them different stories about what he's doing down there. 587 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 3: They don't find a gun. They will never find a gun. 588 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 3: He tells them different stories about what he's doing. Maybe 589 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: he was fishing. No, maybe he was doing something else, 590 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 3: fell asleep or something. So they bring him back to 591 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 3: the station and they look him and his mother gets 592 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: an attorney who is a really amazing character, the only 593 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: I think black female defense attorney in Washington at the time. 594 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 3: This is the time when there weren't even bathrooms for 595 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: women in the court building. And she was also a minister, 596 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 3: ordained minister, so a great orator and a very smart, 597 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 3: canny woman, and she takes the case for almost no money, 598 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 3: and she puts on this trial. And the prosecutors are 599 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: also not told that there was this interest from the CIA. 600 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 3: Nobody tells them that Mary Meyer had a diary. What 601 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 3: he tells them that James Ingleton was interested in it. 602 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 3: They put the whole trial on without that information. And 603 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 3: the jury is mostly black. It might have been all black, 604 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: I can't remember. I think it was, but it was 605 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 3: more black than white. And this is the beginning of 606 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 3: you know, now it's nineteen sixty five, so like Watts 607 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 3: is burning. It's the very beginning. They remember the nineteen 608 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 3: sixty four Civil Rights Act is nineteen sixty four, right, 609 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of racial tension in this country. 610 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: It's like the beginning of a new era. And the 611 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: African American community in Washington is just as upset about 612 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 3: their treatment as anywhere else. And so Dovey Brown she 613 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 3: plays to that. It's, you know, the look at this 614 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 3: poor little guy. Look at these white the white prosecutor 615 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: and all these white people have just ganged up on him. 616 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: And of course they're gonna say, killed this woman. And look, 617 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: he's too tiny. She kind of does, like the glove 618 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 3: doesn't fit thing. He's much tinier than what the witness claimed. 619 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 3: But the witness is looking down from above. So anyway, 620 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: he gets acquitted, and the Georgetown said is reeling. They 621 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 3: think that he's guilty. There's not going to be any 622 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,719 Speaker 3: justice done. They assume that he was guilty, and then 623 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: he got away with it, and you know, end of story. 624 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: It's sort of is spectacular to think, regardless of whether 625 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: or not he was in fact guilty, it's just that 626 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: a black man accused of murdering a white woman in 627 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: the sixties would be acquitted. 628 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 3: Considering welling he has a lot to do with Dove Rowntree. 629 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: Yes, and Wi Rowntree. We should say she really was 630 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: an incredibly important civil rights figure. She was one of 631 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: the first women to be commissioned an army officer. She 632 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: secured the ban on racial segregation on interstate buses, and 633 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: she took this case on as basically a political statement. 634 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, she was paid like a dollar for it. 635 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: And the inconsistencies, as far as I understand, go both ways. 636 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: I mean, as you mentioned, the eyewitness had said that 637 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: the suspect was on the taller side five ten ish 638 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: or five nine or five ten, and then in fact 639 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: he was five four. He was much smaller. Additionally, he 640 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: had said that he was there to go fishing, but 641 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: in fact his fishing rod was back home, so that 642 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: also didn't quite track. She didn't have I mean, these 643 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: are smaller details, but she didn't have her purse with 644 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: her from what I understand, and that was used to 645 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: argue that it could not have been a mugging or 646 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: a robbery. And then there were no signs of resistance. 647 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: Is that true? 648 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, she fought him off. I think with 649 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 3: screaming and fighting him off, right, that's what at least witnessed. Yeah, 650 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 3: I mean, as I said, the crime scene itself is, 651 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 3: and that the eyewitness is black looking at a black man. 652 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 3: You know, the way he acted, you know, when he 653 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 3: was arrested. I mean, obviously he could have been you know, 654 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 3: drunk or mentally unwell, and I think he wasn't well. 655 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 3: But you know, there's always the possibility if it was 656 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 3: a sexual he grabbed her, it was a sexual thing. 657 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 3: You know, there are some convincing pieces of evidence for 658 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 3: the other side. I mean, the two shots perfectly aimed 659 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 3: that you know, wow, I'm going to shoot you in 660 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 3: the head and then I'm going to shoot you in 661 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: the heart to make sure you're dead. That doesn't seem 662 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 3: like a drunken rapist act. And we do know that 663 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 3: she was married to high level cia buy and so 664 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: maybe they, you know, they thought that she was gonna 665 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 3: lab But at the time when I was doing the book, 666 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 3: I did get out of the Beuerau of prisons. What 667 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 3: his life was like afterwards, mister Crump, and he was 668 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 3: still alive actually, and I wrote to him, and his 669 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: mother or somebody else wrote back and threatened me and like, 670 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,959 Speaker 3: don't she come near us? So I didn't. I didn't 671 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: get to talk to him, but I did get Geera 672 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 3: of Prisons records, and I did end up meeting a 673 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: woman who was a wife or a girlfriend who had 674 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 3: literally a scar on her neck from him trying to 675 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 3: kill her, according to her. And there was a child 676 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 3: rape charge, and there were arsons and all of those 677 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 3: things together suggest and I talked to criminologists like those 678 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 3: things are connected to a type of criminolog I type 679 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 3: of person with a propensity for killing or you know, 680 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 3: raping its rape actually so maybe you know, I mean, 681 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 3: I think it's possible that he was out. They're looking 682 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 3: for trouble. You know. Dove Rowntree said something to me 683 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 3: and I think you put it in the book where 684 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 3: she told me it terrible about another defendant that she 685 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 3: had represented, and she said, you know, I think the 686 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 3: most important thing is forgiveness and starts with being able 687 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 3: to forgive yourself. And then she talked about this woman 688 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 3: that she read represented who had clearly had done the murder, 689 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 3: the crime and her hands were covered with blood and 690 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 3: you know, she had done this thing. And Dovey Rowntree 691 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 3: basically said, as long as you can forgive yourself, I 692 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 3: can work with you, or something like that. It's in 693 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 3: the book. And I thought that was the kind of 694 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 3: an interesting thing to tell me, you have to like 695 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 3: and that she was just trying to explain what it 696 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 3: was to be a defense attorney. But anyway, so those 697 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 3: things together, plus the question of whether there was a motive, 698 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 3: I think the motive that you bring up about rogue 699 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 3: woman possibly out of control. CIA didn't want that, you know, maybe. 700 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 3: And you know, I know Peter Janny, I know him. 701 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 3: He was my source for the book book. I interviewed 702 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 3: him and then he went off and wrote his own book. 703 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 3: I know that he is absolutely obsessed with the notion 704 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 3: that his father, who was also in the CIA, murdered 705 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 3: her or you know, participated or helped plot. And I 706 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 3: actually had a chance the other day to meet one 707 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 3: of my sources for the book, reconnect with a woman 708 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 3: who I couldn't believe was still alive. She's one hundred, 709 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 3: She was in Georgetown, still kicking, still sharp as attack, 710 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 3: and I actually went down there and spent two days 711 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 3: recording her because I think her story is so amazing. 712 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 3: I mean, she's of that generation, and she was very 713 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,479 Speaker 3: involved in American politics. She was there in the kitchen 714 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 3: when Bobby was shot. She was involved in the Marshall Plan. 715 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 3: She started to head start program for Johnson. She had 716 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 3: six children, so a working mother. She was a journalist, 717 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 3: and she was a peal of Mary. She's one of 718 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 3: that generation of women. You know, they're interesting people. And 719 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 3: her name is Marie Ridder from the Night Ridder Media 720 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 3: Company and very moneyed. And I asked her about this. 721 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 3: She knows about the Janny theory, and she knew all 722 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 3: these people and she said, Darling Wister, Jenny would never 723 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 3: do that. He was a teddy bear. I don't think 724 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 3: of her as a naive person at all. I mean 725 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 3: the way she talked about the affairs that she had 726 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 3: and the affairs that all these other women were having, 727 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,879 Speaker 3: I mean, it was it was wild. And I don't 728 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 3: think that she's unsophisticated about what the CIA could be doing. 729 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 3: So anyway, all of those things together, I'm just not 730 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 3: in the conspiracy camp. But you know, there's always a 731 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 3: possibility that Kennedy murder one of those enduring mysteries, and 732 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 3: this woman is one of many who about whom there 733 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 3: are legit questions about what was going on in her 734 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 3: life with him. 735 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 2: Right, So, from what you've laid out, it seems like 736 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: you are pretty convinced that the liability more likely than 737 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 2: not falls with Ray Crump. Do you think that maybe 738 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: if we compare it to Ojay as you hinted that, 739 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 2: do you think that this ultimately wasn't just that he 740 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: had a good defense attorney, but that also the prosecution 741 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 2: was too thin. 742 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 3: I don't recall that that was I mean, they just 743 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 3: didn't have you know, they didn't have the evidence, they 744 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 3: didn't have a gun, and I don't know what more 745 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 3: they could have done. What they really needed to do 746 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 3: was get Bren Bradley to tell the truth and drag 747 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 3: Angleton in there and ask all these questions of them 748 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 3: in that trial. 749 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: Sorry to interrupt, just to confirm, you know, they didn't 750 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: mention the diary, as you said, so, at no point 751 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: in the trial was it at all known that this 752 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: woman actively had a two year affair with the president. 753 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 3: Certainly wasn't known to the jury, okay, And I don't 754 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 3: think it was known to Dovey Rowntree. In fact, you know, no, 755 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 3: they didn't know that she just knew that there was 756 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 3: this line of like white men in gray suits paying 757 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 3: close attention in the back of the room, and you know, 758 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 3: she assumed again she's part of the black community. Oh 759 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 3: and these are the elites exactly. Yeah, she didn't know, 760 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 3: and neither did the prosecutor know, and the cops didn't know, 761 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 3: and there were you know, interviews with them later when 762 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 3: this all came out and they were upset about it. 763 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 3: I mean, the prosecutor and the cop were like, we 764 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 3: would have been asking different questions and then you wouldn't 765 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 3: have maybe you wouldn't have this ongoing theory, or maybe 766 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 3: they would have proven unlikely, but they might have proven 767 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 3: that the CIA hired a gunman. 768 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: Well, you know, as often happens in this podcast, we 769 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: have an incredibly interesting conversation that is really informed by 770 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: meticulous research, and then we are left with more questions 771 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: than answers. Yeah, I mean we talked to you know, 772 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: someone who has truly like dedicated years of her life 773 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: doing as much research as possible, and there's a part 774 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: of me that's to like, wait, so what happened? 775 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 3: You know, you could bring on the other biographer and 776 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 3: you know his dad was in the CIA, so. 777 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: It seems like everyone somehow in the story was somehow 778 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: connected to the CIA. I mean, I feel insecure that 779 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: I have no CIA connections. 780 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 3: I know I don't. 781 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, great that we know of but yeah, of course 782 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: the truth will come out. Nina. Thank you so much. 783 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: Shoting the Pope. This was a really fascinating conversation and 784 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: one of one of the most interesting stories we've talked about. 785 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: And as with so many things in the Kennedy universe, 786 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: it's shocking to me that it's not talked about more. So, 787 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Neta. This was great. 788 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 3: You're awesome. 789 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 2: So that's it for this week's episode. 790 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 1: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all Things 791 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: Kennedy every week. 792 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Clair, 793 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: and George Savers. 794 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Tapolski. 795 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson. 796 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame. 797 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 2: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson. 798 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent. 799 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. 800 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith 801 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is a production of her podcast