WEBVTT - Tiny Satellites: Eyes in the Sky, Thousands of Them 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.840 Hi, everyone in. A benf software engineer approached me and said, hey, 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.640 I've got an idea. Let's use computer vision and machine 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:10.120 learning on satellite images to identify and count up solar panels. 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.000 Whoa huge high five. No one actually knows how much 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.760 solar is installed around the world. Everybody has guesses, but 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.439 no one actually knows. So getting an actual tally would 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.040 be amazing, and checking back on a regular basis would 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.960 allow us to measure build out locally and globally. I 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.160 was in. So they built an initial algorithm and it worked. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.600 It identified residential and commercial solar panels and filtered out 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:35.000 false positives like skylights, swimming pools and like awesome, Now 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.320 all we needed was images. Well, it turns out back 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.400 then coverage was incomplete. Satellites in orbit at the time, 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.360 we're not covering all geographies, and when they were it 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.520 was infrequent, like years between passes. So the attempt failed. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:50.639 We were too early, I guess. We tried a few 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.680 more times, but were stopped short by issues with image 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.080 resolution and the computing power needed to process all that imagery. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.200 This week on the show, We've got benef technology analysts 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.200 Sorrow Raza here to tell us how the satellite industry 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.760 has caught up. Now over a thousand small satellites scan 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.000 the Earth all day, every day and are matched by 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.320 several companies specializing in turning what those satellites see into 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.759 usable data, making our use case and countless other as possible. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.680 Our discussion is based on a report titled Tiny Satellites 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.640 Spaces Next Frontier being IF. Users can get this report 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.840 on bf dot com, to BEANF mobile app and the 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.200 Bloomberg terminal. As a reminder, BENIF does not provide investment 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.080 or strategy advice, and you can hear the full disclaimer 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:29.760 at the end of the show. I'm Mark Taylor and 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:38.400 you're listening to switch on to BENF podcast. Sara, Hi, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.880 thanks for joining us, Thank you for having me. Can 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:42.840 you start us off with a very basics, Just what 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.920 is a small satellite? So a small satellite is basically 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.560 anything below five DRAMs. Within that there are different kind 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.960 of variations. So you've got micro satellites that are below 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.840 a hundred kilograms, nano satellites that are below ten kilograms, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.320 and you've even got pico satellites that are below one ram. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:04.480 So why are they out there? Why are we seeing 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.840 these emerged into the market. So I think that's for 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.280 a variety of reasons. We have this demand for more data. 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.360 We want more data to analyze, we want more data 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:18.040 to visualize different things on maps and satellite imagery, so 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.200 I think the demand for this data is one of 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.120 the main reasons. And then something that you know has 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.919 kind of allowed this to happen is the continued improvement 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:33.040 in the miniaturization of subsystems sensus miniature computers, and a 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.959 lot of this innovation is obviously coming from adjacent sectors 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.000 such as the smartphone industry and consumer electronics. So it 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.200 seems like there's kind of two sides of this that 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.600 are pushing it. There's an improvement in technology that are 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.800 enabling the satellites to be made and sent into space, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.480 and we'll get to that, But the other part is 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.280 a hunger there'st for more data. The third part, I 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.160 guess is though those two things are pushing to to 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.440 what end? Like what are people using this, you know, 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.680 new data for. So it's it's actually pretty interesting in 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.320 terms of the different use cases. It's based on the 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.399 different technologies, right, So you've got things like satellite imagery 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.480 that can help with precision agriculture for things like crop production, 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.840 soil seeding zones. This kind of optical imagery can also 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.720 help with fixed asset monitoring, such as you know for 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:25.240 oil and gas, well paid construction, change detection, pipeline maintenance. Again, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.359 that can also have applications in you know, for renewables, 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.720 for the construction of wind farms, solar parks. I mean 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:36.000 that's just one technology, right, that's just using miniaturized cameras 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.040 on satellites. Can you help us out with that to 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.800 visualize what is actually happening here when you say it's 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.000 healthy to monitor of fixed asset and just fixed asset 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.880 could be like an oil well or a power plant 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.680 or something like that. How does it actually work? Obviously 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.800 you may be familiar with large geo station right satellites. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.040 These are you know, thousands kilometers above the Earth surface 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.280 and they kind of hover in a in a stationary orbit. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.720 These kind of tiny satellites allbit in something called a 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.840 polar orbit. So you might have seen images of tons 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.800 of satellites in a ring around the Earth, and these 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:14.240 operate in a constellation form rather than independent large satellites. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.320 The crucial difference which allows for a high revisit rate 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.440 over the same spots on the Earth and ultimately global coverage. 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:24.720 I remember a few years ago we were looking at 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:26.680 a few years ago, it's like six years ago now, 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.560 we were looking at getting some imagery to look at 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.839 solar panel build out. But the problem back then was 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.320 we would only get revisiting of a particular area with 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.279 the satellite technology available once every six months seven months. 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.159 But we've revisited it recently and the coverage can be daily. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.000 Is that kind of what you're getting out here? Yeah, exactly, 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.720 So you can even get twice daily coverage to And 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.040 bear in mind this is dependent on the number of 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.359 these tiny satellites that you have in these rings around 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.080 the Earth. The more satellites you have in one of 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.000 these rings, the higher their revisit rate. So there's a 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.640 bunch of satellites in rings that essentially create a scanner 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.880 around the Earth exactly. And on top of these rings, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.839 they all are usually flown in a low Earth orbit. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.680 But if I wanted to launch a constellation of satellites myself, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.440 is there space for me? So that's a great question. 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.800 There is space, the actual space, and space is a 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.839 bad one. There's there's a lot of space and space 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:33.200 so that there isn't much regulation currently on moving away 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.719 dead satellites, and E s A and NASA try to 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.480 regulate as much as they can. Everyone's main question is 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.880 once these small satellites finish their end of life, they 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.680 usually because they're so small, just burn up in the atmosphere. 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.760 So is there something on them to kick them out 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.160 of orbit in going into a descent. Most of these 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.080 CubeSats do have propulsion systems, and what they'll do is 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.760 they'll use their last little bit of fuel to propel 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.200 them into the atmosphere. So can you describe the basics 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.599 of what exactly is the small satellite value chain? I 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:11.000 would say there are roughly kind of seven stages to 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.520 this value chain. So you start with the satellite design. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.560 That satellite design can usually come from the satellite operator. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.520 Then you've got kind of the sensor manufacturing. Now, this sensor, 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.360 you know, can be from a research institute, a university, 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.160 a small company that's well versed in sense of manufacturing 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.840 for temperature atmospheric composition. Then you've got the satellite manufacturing, 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:40.000 which again is usually outsourced to a manufacturing company. Then 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.400 you've got launch services, ground operation, data and analytics and 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.599 end user sales. Now, what we're seeing with this value 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.560 chain is a lot of vertical integration. So operators like 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.920 Planet Inspire actually integrate all stages of the value chain 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.000 except launch services. Have they started data integration or data 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.479 analysis as well. Yes, So obviously we know that there 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:08.000 are separate companies like Orbital Insight, Descartet Labs, Chaos who 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.840 look at data analytics specifically, But a lot of these 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.239 satellite operators have seen right, instead of just providing people 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.080 with the raw data, why don't we just analyze it ourselves, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.000 hire a couple of data scientists and do this ourselves. 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.960 Is there consolidation amongst the startups right now, or you know, 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.360 somebody like Lackheed or some other incombment going to come 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.960 in and buy up all these startups. What's really interesting 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.520 is we're seeing a lot of consolidation M and A 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.000 in the manufacturing stage of the value chain. So we're 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.280 seeing these large aerospace companies like Boeing, air Bus, Lockheed, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.840 Northrop Grumman. We're seeing them acquiring some of the leading 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:50.160 manufacturers specifically in tiny satellites. So some of these startups Boeing, 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.680 you know, has got Millennium Space Systems Airbus took sorry 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.760 satellite technology, Northrop Grumman took orbital A, t K max 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.240 A took Space Systems Laurel, and these kind of startups 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:07.400 were really coming up with innovative techniques to manufacture CubeSats 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.240 and nanosatellites on a large scale. So do you see 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.360 there's the future of this industry that it's just going 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.760 to be consolidated amongst the old in comments, or do 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.800 you think these startups will grow into fully fledged competitors 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.760 to those other players. I think in terms of satellite 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.080 operators such as planets by a Satellogic Capella, I do 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:31.400 see those growing. In terms of the manufacturing companies, I 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.600 see a lot of those getting acquired by larger aerospace companies. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.400 And my reasoning for that is that the satellite operators 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.640 have a unique skill set and engineering capability that they've 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.800 kind of honed in on on their niche kind of 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.040 area g h G SAT for greenhouse gas emissions, monitoring, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.480 blue field for methane more monitoring, state logic for optical sensors. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.000 Whereas with the manufacturing startups there in a field that's 0:08:56.080 --> 0:09:00.320 extremely competitive with these large aerospace companies really dominate eating 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.160 of the industry in the manufacturing a bit of the 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.640 value chain. A lot of those are just getting acquired, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.440 you know, sort of every sort of month. Is there 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.679 a theme in the types of companies that are getting 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.800 brought every month? So I think the acquisitions that are 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:18.040 happening are of these tiny startups that are manufacturing cubes ats. 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.080 So the startups that are getting miniaturized components from various 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.320 subsectors and creating these these CubeSats on a mass sort 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.679 of production scale. Let's change directions and move into large 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.839 Can you tell us how these things get up into 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.000 space in the first place. As a child the eighties, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.480 you know, I'm used to seeing big rackets go up 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.680 in the space every once in a while, But apparently 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.120 that is not the case. That these things fly up 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.720 in in droves quite often, Is that right? Yeah? So, 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.720 I think one of the largest subsectors of the space 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.559 industry that has changed the most is the launch industry. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.400 In parallel with these developments in satellites and senses, there 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.079 are a bunch of innovations with in launch vehicles, and 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.800 I think this is what's led to not only a 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.280 higher number of commercially procured launches, but also a higher 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.959 number of satellites launched in general. And I think that's 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.679 due to the fact that these launch vehicles are now 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:18.840 becoming reusable, especially stage one of the rockets and ride sharing, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.000 as these satellites are so tiny, you can fit many 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.000 satellites onto one launch vehicle. And I think in twenty 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:31.000 seventeen a hundred and four satellites were launched on one rocket, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:35.640 which is, you know, the highest in history. There was Planet, right, yeah, 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.840 so the majority of those were Planet from an Indian 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:43.040 polar launch vehicle. But that there are companies like SpaceX 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.840 who have created things like the Small Sat ride share program, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.880 a specialized program for these startups with these small satellites 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.080 who you know, just need to get two cube SATs 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.920 weighing five kilograms each up into space, who want to 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.920 just jump on a rocket and pay a pretty small price. 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.760 So the barrier to entry has really really come down, 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:07.320 it seems, definitely. And you know that this innovation has 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.719 also seen new companies such as space Flight who kind 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.760 of organize everything from you know, if you've let's say 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.120 you have a satellite, right, you have a five kilogram 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.520 satellite with a temperature sensor on it. You've cre you've 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.400 created it, you kind of outsourced the manufacturing. It didn't 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:23.840 cost you too much, and you want to get this 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.640 into space. Someone like space Flight will do all of 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.800 the launch services for you, and you kind of go 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.680 to them. You give them your satellite, you pay a price, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.840 and they'll organize the whole launch and put you on 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.000 a on a vehicle. So it's kind of like a 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.680 an airline ticket market. Yeah, is it working. Yeah, it's 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.280 working pretty well. In my uninitiated perspective, it seems like 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.280 there wouldn't be enough demand for a business like space 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.360 flight to be viable. But it seems like you're telling 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.520 me otherwise that there are plenty of satellites to go 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.480 up on, plenty of rockets, and there's a lot to 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.480 be organized. I think that the reason why there is 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.880 a huge demand for it is again because the capabilities 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.920 of these companies don't extend to the launch services industry. 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:11.040 It's historically been an industry dominated by military and government. 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.360 It's historically not been a commercial industry. SpaceX is new 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.720 Rocket Lab, all becks. These are brand new commercialized companies 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.880 that are entering this industry for the first time, so 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.959 not many companies are well versed in the area of 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.560 launching something into space. So what's the next big thing 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.320 in this sector? What are you most excited about seeing. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.679 I think I'm most excited about seeing the new technologies 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.000 that are coming from these miniaturized satellites. You know, the 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.400 more time goes on, the more technological improvements that are 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.040 miniaturization of subsystems, the more we'll be able to do 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.200 with these satellites. And I'm most excited to see if 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.360 we can get minute by minute coverage, if we can 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.840 get five minute coverage, yeah, that would be amazing. Would 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.760 be Another really exciting innovation that's happening is on the 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.200 data analytics side of things, which isn't really talked about 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.559 that much. It's everyone loves space and everyone talks about rockets, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.240 you know, going into space. But you know, either side 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.400 of the launch industry, the manufacturing industry is seeing a 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:16.000 lot of digitalization and mass production, three D printing, advanced 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.120 materials being used, you know, nanodiamond coatings or on night 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.160 triede things like that. I think I think a lot 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.440 of the new materials coming out are really interesting. And 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.760 then at the other end of the value chain, you've 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:32.240 got data analytics where like we discussed before, there are 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.360 a lot of companies just in this area who are 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.000 investing in data scientists and looking at how you can 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.840 create cool you know, mL models and applying different algorithms 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.960 to analyze this vast amount of data. So the hardware 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.920 is getting better, but the software is getting better as well, 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.600 which will lead to more use cases and more that 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.600 we can do with this data. So it's no secret 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.080 that b NF itself is new to this area to 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.960 to looking at space. How did it start? I guess 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.560 why did we start looking into space? And can you 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.760 tell us a bit about the approach to the research. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.120 BENF has historically not covered space. The reason why I 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.120 think that we're going into this kind of these kind 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.720 of endeavors now is to push the boundaries of being efforts. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.000 See what's really on the edges now. Space is an 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.200 industry that is related to all of the current sectors 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.080 that we currently look at, wind, polar oil, gas, I 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.640 mean even from simple things like monitoring oil and gas operations, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.240 wind turbines using IoT sensors to track predictive maintenance. These 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.800 small satellites are related to everything we already cover. Then 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.080 on top of that, benef could also leverage the satellite 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.800 data for our own research. The manufacturing industry for satellites 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:50.160 is growing and using things like three D printing additive manufacturing, 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.400 which ties into our advanced materials team. So I think 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.720 there's a lot of crossover and it was just waiting 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.000 to happen. In terms of what I found during my research, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.600 I a pretty surprised at how little publicly available data 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.920 there there is on satellites and on the space industry 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.160 in general. I'm guessing that because of the history, if 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:15.080 it being mostly military government, funder didn't necessarily have to disclose. Yeah, exactly, 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.480 And I think that's definitely changing. I think next year, 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.600 and you know, the next five years, will will have 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.360 a lot more data given this. You know, just even 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.680 things like the launch industry has now become a bit 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.720 more commercialized and the manufacturing industry. There are a ton 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.040 of startups evolving in in this space that are trying 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.920 to specialize in tiny cube SATs and in technologies, and 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.400 you know, even in the data analytics side. Given that 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.800 this whole sort of value chain is transitioning from military 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.120 and governmental to commercial, I think we'll we'll definitely have 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.200 a lot more data in the next five years. So 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.440 following under that, how did you actually end up getting 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.440 the data you needed? So it was a tricky one. Um. 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.560 I definitely had to reach out to a bunch of 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.240 different companies and try and gather as much data as 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.320 possible from what they were willing to disclose. As the 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.960 industry is so private and you know these companies that 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.080 are emerging are all startups, it was definitely difficult to 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.960 get a lot of this data. So imagine going forward 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.080 it could be a bit of a slog Yes, yeah, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.960 I think I think the industry definitely needs to be 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.240 a bit more transparent, and I think that will naturally 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.800 happen given how commercialize it's becoming. All sectors start off 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.480 like this. I remember back in the in the early 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.640 days of any f we this is the exact approach 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.680 we took with wind and solar and geothermal and carbon 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.560 captured data. You know, it just didn't exist and so 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.800 somebody has to go out and collect it. So you're 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.720 not only on the forefront of technology here, but you're 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.560 on the forefront of research in terms of analyzing a 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.760 new market. Can we go into the industry growth just 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.120 a little bit. Some people listening might think, like, all 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.440 these startups are emerging, they're sending up more and more satellites. 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.320 There's got to be a point where there's just too 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.280 much you know, space junk up there. In terms of 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.640 space junk, there really are three main options here. There 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.000 are some companies like Leo Apps who are investigating things 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.320 like collision avoidance and signing contracts with a bunch of 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:10.240 small satellite operators to monitor this for them, which obviously 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.520 in the long term saves them, you know, a lot 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.240 of money in case there's satellites crash into each other. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.960 Are they attempting to be an air traffic controller? Yeah, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.399 pretty much. Yeah, I mean that there doesn't seem to 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.040 be too many of those in the industry. So we 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.960 have these constellations that are making scanners around the Earth, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.639 and I'm using the camera to look down at the 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.399 Earth to gather data. But I think you alluded to 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.639 in the report at least you mentioned several times in 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.200 the report that there are several different technologies available on 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.360 these cube sets and small satellites that go beyond cameras. 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:42.560 Can you tell us about some of those and what 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:44.840 those might be used for a lot of these satellite 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.040 operators and companies in the space have found their niche. 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.200 So you've got companies like Capella Space Sat a Loogic Planet, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.359 which are, like you say, focusing on these miniaturized cameras. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.520 But then you've got a bunch of other companies like 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:01.359 Spire who are really leading into terms of atmospheric monitoring. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:08.840 So some other technologies include atmospheric sensors that measure water pressure, temperature, humidity, 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.880 and these can be obviously really helpful to insurance companies 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:18.520 and for monitoring weather, daily weather and pretty accurate. You've 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:23.040 got other technologies including IoT sensors which can be useful 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:28.399 for the smart agriculture, predictive maintenance of wind turbines, vehicle 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.600 accidents were kind of fourth other main area for these 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.639 technologies would be geolocations. So you've got a I S 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.080 and a D S B sensors that's kind of a 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.600 use for tracking I somehow can't get past the demand 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.640 side of this that it seems to me like these 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.520 companies are launching these satellites with all these capabilities and 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.280 then are going to these companies and saying, hey, insurance company, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.199 you could use this you want to buy it? Is 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.480 it pushers at pool? You know that the insurance companies 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.960 are saying, actually, I really could use some better weather data. Hey, 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:01.880 how that you go along to satellite? Is there one 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.560 that's winning there or is it equal? How should I 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.920 think about this? I think that it varies. That demands 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.720 from customers is a lot stronger, right, And that's where 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.920 these satellite operators have come in and said, we see 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.560 this need for more data. For example of insurance companies, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.480 if you just take the number of fraudulent claims per year, 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.320 looking at that, they obviously want to reduce that. And 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.520 the answer to that is more more data. A great 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.320 way of getting that data is to get this data 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.680 from a constellation of satellites monitoring the Earth every single day. 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.520 So I think that in terms of a push and pull, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.400 it definitely varies. At the same time, these satellite operators 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.879 have noticed a kind of I guess, a gap in 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:49.680 the market where if you have great engineering capabilities, perhaps 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.359 from other endeavors that you've you've gone for, and you 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.040 have that capability to create these you know, these nano 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.160 satellites with these materials, there is a market. So where 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.200 is the technology coming from Is it coming from startups 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.359 you know that are just getting these ideas, or is 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.520 it coming from large corporates that have already been in 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:14.199 the space industry for decades. It definitely varies. What's common is, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:19.200 for example, a university research lab will design a sensor, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.520 for example, to measure things like atmospheric composition or space radiation. Now, 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.639 usually this kind of research facility or university is is 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.800 definitely well versed in sense of manufacturing and scientific instruments 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:36.360 with the sensor. However, they probably don't have the expertise 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.560 to build a satellite and launch a satellite operator satellite 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.760 in that case. What we've been seeing is a lot 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.680 of universities and research labs and and even companies kind 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.240 of building out this sensor. I mean an example is 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.919 blue Field who have a mething sensor and will outsource 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.680 everything else with another satellite operator, and that would be 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.560 as a hosted payload. How common is that where you 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.640 have a satellite that has multiple technologies from multiple companies, 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.240 So it's becoming more and more common. Companies like Planet 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.800 Inspire initially started off with just their own As they've 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.680 kind of grown in the industry, they are now doing 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:22.000 a lot more hosted payloads from various other startups, various 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:27.800 research institutes who have these specialized sensors, specialized scientific instruments, 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.960 but no capability of engineering and launching. It seems to 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.639 be the mark of an industry that is maturing. You know. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:36.840 It seems like in the very beginning stages of something, 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.840 you'd have everything in house, everything home built, right, and 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.120 as you grow, you'd have companies specializing, and then you'd 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.200 have other companies that just bring things together and get 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.719 things going. Yeah, so we are actually seeing more vertical 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.879 integration within satellite companies in the industry. A bunch of 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:58.720 companies are actually fully vertically integrated, obviously excluding launch and 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.360 launch services, but you know, all the way through from 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:06.600 senser manufacturing through to satellite manufacturing obviously outsourcing launch, but 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.199 then ground station operation to the data and analytics, which is, 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.760 you know, a really big emerging subsector. You've got companies 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:20.200 in data analytics, specifically only analyzing satellite data without operating 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.240 their own constellations. From what I've seen, there are several 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.800 of those that have popped up in just recent years. 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.199 Right when we first started looking at this as as 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.280 ben if there weren't that many companies doing this. They 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:35.160 were all launching and then providing imagery and then leaving 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:36.919