WEBVTT - Eric Mourlot 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.160 When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:04.880 honest with you. I sell T shirts and swag to 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.120 the folks who are there, and then people always say, 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.640 can we get this wag without sitting through a whole 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.760 evening of you. Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.160 can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson Merch 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.360 website and you can buy it for yourself or someone 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.159 you hate or someone you love. For more information and 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.520 link to the web store, please go to the Craig 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.080 Fergusonshow dot com. That's all lowercase, the Craig Ferguson show 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:33.879 dot com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:38.680 this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest in people 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:46.160 about what brings them happiness. This episode is a conversation 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.239 with Eric Murlow, which if you are any way attached 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.919 to the art world, you will know exactly who he is. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.600 And if you're not, then you're about to find out 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:02.320 Eric Murlow. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:07.720 Full disclosure ary. 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:13.000 You're French, so that that's going that's not going to 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.440 be an issue, but it's very much part of our 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:16.240 story today. 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.559 That's right, Well, the Old Alliance though you're. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.360 Scottish, Scottish and French, that's true. You know why though, 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.480 It's because they were Catholics, That's right. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.920 I think, at least I think they were Catholic originally 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:27.240 until they killed your queen. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.160 Now, who killed the Queen Mary, Queen of scott She 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.800 was French, though, isn't She's yeah, she. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.640 Was Catholic, and so Elizabeth made sure that. That's right. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.680 But Elizabeth was English, that's right. Okay, But that's what 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:41.720 we're not talking about this. They were talking about the 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.759 we're talking about your the story of the Merlau family 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:53.160 from wallpaper makers in the nineteenth century to being a 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:59.200 dynamic force, a dynamic force eric in the twentieth century, masters. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:00.600 As well. 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.160 Let's start, okay, So who started making that? Your family 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:11.120 began making wallpaper in Paris in the eighteen fifty two, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.000 eighteen fifty So it's just it was like it wasn't 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:14.880 an artistic in day. Well, it was artistic in the 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:16.760 sense of wallpapers. 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.280 Right, yeah, but it was commercial, You're right. I mean, 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:24.560 we were doing also wine labels, chocolate labels, ledgers. Eventually, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:30.200 my great grandfather, who was the son of the previous owner. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.040 Right he started he bought, i should say, a print 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.480 shop that was printing those geographical maps that you're had 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:39.560 at school, that you would pull. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.040 Tool down maps in the world, right and during colonial time, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.840 so everything said either France, Breton or exactly this is 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.720 French and this is British. So what happened then? Who 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.320 made the change into the birth? Because it was the 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:58.800 birth of the lethographic is lethographic movement? Is that a 0:02:58.840 --> 0:02:59.800 movement or is it a. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.359 Well it's a medium, right. It was started in Germany 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:08.040 by Cenefelder in the mid eighteenth century, right, so just 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.519 about a century before, and it was the easiest way 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.080 to print color. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.960 Right, So talk me through. Imagine, I don't know what 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.560 a lithograph is right now. I'm not saying I don't, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.239 but imagine I don't. Imagine you're talking to someone who 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.200 doesn't know what a lithograph is, or what it would be, 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:25.919 or what or how it came about. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.080 What is a lithograph? It's actually a really funny story. 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.160 So this gentleman Cenefelder was trying to find a way 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.920 to reproduce his plays in a cheaper manner because before 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.880 then you would have to go to a printer that 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:42.480 would do topography, right, like Guttemberg. Right. And he was 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.920 trying to find a way to publish his works. And 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.680 I think his wife was serving him some kind of soup, 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:55.200 some fatty soup outside on his limestone table, right, And 0:03:55.320 --> 0:04:00.000 suddenly he discovered that after he had washed the table, 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.440 the soup had been spilled. And he washed the table, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.880 he started putting the paper in. He had a zinc 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.280 He spilled some of his ink, and the ink actually 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:12.120 was stayed in the areas that had been previously absorbed, 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.280 had absorbed the grease from the soup. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.560 Oh, so this was born of a drunk playwright spilling 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:20.400 his soup. 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.640 And then got all right, I better get out of 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.760 it and whine and well, okay, good. He made his 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.760 fortune actually from lithography, not from his writing. Well, what 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.560 is it? Then this happened? So it's really based on 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.920 the repulsion of water and grease. So the grease basically 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.000 that is absorbed by the lithographic by the limestone. Right 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.080 later on we'll be able to retain the printing ink. 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.920 All right, So once you have the ink on the 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.480 stone that's been retained in the areas that have been 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.160 drawn by the artist. Then you ply the paper and 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.080 you apply pressure and the ink is transferred from the 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:58.400 stone onto the paper. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.440 So it's kind of like a print, right, yeah, right, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.280 but it's a stone printing blog exactly right. And so 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.640 how does your family get involved in this? Because this 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.000 starts the invent this German bloke invents a new form 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:15.159 of printing, right, and. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:20.400 It's got its heyday really in the late well when 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.120 we're basically doing it commercially. At that point you have 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.280 a lot of artists like Chere and Toulusula Track, right, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.400 and all these muka that are artists that are doing 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.600 these big big posters posters, right, like the mul Rouge 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.720 posters that you got Trek was doing and that was 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.880 that was lithographs, then, yeah, absolutely it was lithographs. And 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.200 as a matter of fact, when John Ford does his 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.480 movie Mulla Rouge, the studio where Tulusla track at work 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.400 does not exist anymore. So he came to do it 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.080 at our studio and he took over the studio and 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.280 there are several scenes where Jose Ferrer is in there 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.320 and pretends to be work king in our studio printing 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:06.000 his lithographs. Oh right, So what happens is is your grandfather, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.640 is it, your grandfather, your great grand my grandfather. 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:13.400 Right, so your grandfather decides I'm gonna get in touch, 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.120 I'm gonna use this lithograph stuff that we've used for 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:17.360 wallpaper year. 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.440 So his grandparents, his grandfather and his father. By then, 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.400 we have about four print shops. They are two in 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.720 Paris and two in the suburbs. We did. We ended 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.000 up losing the two in the suburbs because the railroad 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.120 took it by eminent domain. They needed the land land 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:38.320 grab right exactly so, and then basically World War One 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:44.400 takes place, and my grandmother passes away, my grandfather dies, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.480 and my great grandfather sorry dies in nineteen twenty one. Right, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.880 so my grandfather and his brothers and sisters take over 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.520 the studios. And my grandfather had gone to the decorative 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.560 of art school in Paris called the Al Decartif, and 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.040 he's the one that basically started bringing all the artists 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.159 over there. Does he know Picasso and those guys from 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.120 that time? So he knows some of the artists like 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.560 Matiz had taught at the school that he went to. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.360 He knows Braque, he knows some of the people, but 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.880 he doesn't he knows some of them from his regiment 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.600 in World War One because he did really four years, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.640 so did his brother actually right, and we lost one 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.720 of one of the one of the brothers did die 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.680 during the war in the war. So he he he 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.920 comes back from the war and he had known he 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.760 had met lege actually in the war for no Ja, 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.360 but mostly he ended up knowing some of the people 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.560 that worked for the National Museums and they put him 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.640 in touch with the artists. So he had an idea. 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.960 They were at lunch and they were complaining that they 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.760 were not getting enough traffic in the museums. They said, well, 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.200 you know, we're putting bylines in the paper and people 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.760 are not coming. But that's because it's not visual enough. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.920 You should do what theaters used to do. Make prints, 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.960 print of the art that's on display, put them all 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:13.880 over the streets of Paris, and just advertise your exhibitions. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.840 So where did the where was the idea born that 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.000 an artist would create lithographs as just a piece of art. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.280 I mean, the idea is that an artist like Pocastle. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.560 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that I say, 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.480 Pocastle creates an image that is going to be printed 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.520 on limestone, right, and then you print out a bunch 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:37.240 of lithographs. Then you destroy the original piece of limestone, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:41.520 and then these pieces are numbered and they're like original pieces, 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:42.040 is that right? 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.840 So it really started with etchings, if you're talking about 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.160 Durera and Rembrandt, So we're talking back in the sixteenth century, right, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:55.280 they were interested in etchings and doing these works, so prince, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.480 so they would go to the printer and they would say, listen, 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:04.000 you give me a copper plate, you pay for the paper, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.240 you pay for the ink, right, I'll do the work 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.760 and then we split it. We have artist Bruce and 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.040 we have Printerspruce. Right, it would sort of be fifty 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:13.360 to fifty. 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.480 Re brand did a ton of those, right, I mean, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.240 like back in the day, and at least we're done 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:18.640 in copper plate, exactly right. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.120 Okay, And rehn Brand probably did his Durera, I think 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.040 used more craftsman to help him do his, right, But 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:26.320 they're all, you know, they're all. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.760 So if you if you have a Rembrandt eitching, I mean, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:31.280 it's not going to cost you a ton of money 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.240 for a rem brand edching depends which one right, But 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.720 say say you have as the self portrait, the famous 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.720 self portrait of rembrand rem Brandt. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.679 If you use an etching of that, what would that be? 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.600 It depends. It depends on if you have the one 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.760 that was printed in if it was printed in the 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.840 fifteen hundreds. What if you go it was sixteen hundreds, 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:53.760 if it was printed in the seventeen hundreds, or if 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.000 it was printed the eighteen hundreds. All right, I'm asking 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:56.440 for a friend. 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.040 Well, if you go one in Target, if you I 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.280 wouldn't Target and it went on Alex Nice or Rodeo 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.240 and Rodeo driver or on Rodeo drive. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.880 Yeah, whatever it would be, it would be fine. So 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:11.559 who started the idea? 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.839 Because there was a thing like Picasso was doing this, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.319 that he was making lithographs. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.440 And then adding to them once they were done. Right, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.360 So he hadn't had such great luck. He had tried 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.439 it in the twenties before even my grandpa got to 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.680 know him. We knew him through printing posters for the museums, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.559 and so he hadn't really he might have come to 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.400 the studio, We're not really sure at that point, but 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.520 he was working with other printers, and he didn't like it, 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:49.280 so he dropped it. And it's not until probably was 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.640 after the war. It's like nineteen forty five. We had 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.920 worked already for Matisse and Brock and other artists before 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.760 the war, and then the war, of course was quite 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:03.280 complicated look at it. Yeah, and then it's not until 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.320 nineteen forty five where basically he is interested in doing 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:11.000 it again. And it's because Picasso, because Brock and Matista 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.400 tell him, listen, you should really try to go see 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.199 more low. He's different than the other ones. He'll let you, 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.360 he'll give you more leeway. And I think that's the 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.520 thing with my grandfather. He was able to let the 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.840 artists do what they wanted in the studio. He gave 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.120 them more freedom that a lot of the other printers. 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.120 You know, when it was four o'clock, everything had to 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.320 be locked up. You left everything there, and then after 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.880 that you go home. But the employees go home and everything. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.839 My grandpa was basically willing to say, I'll send a 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.240 couple guys to bring you whatever you need in your home. 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.960 Because you know, Picasso came the first time he came, 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.920 the first day he started working at like noon, and 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.640 he didn't stop until eight pm, right, and all the 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:56.840 employees were like, uh. 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.360 Time, come on then, sir, let's get out of there. 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:12.560 No more square faces out your cup. When you were 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.439 a child growing up there, you run into all of 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:17.600 these people, is that true? 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.599 Well, I mean in the fifties. I wasn't born in 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.760 the fifties. Yeah, dies in fifty four, so I can't 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.280 really say. And then I you know, I was ever 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.559 did you ever see his ghost? Oh? Not because he 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.040 died in his home, but when I was giving a 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:38.040 lecture at at this museum which is in your neck 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.800 of the wood, at the National Gallery in Edinburgh. Oh yeah, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.680 that's famous. Yes, it's quite a beautiful building. Yeah it is. Yeah. 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.040 And it was a show of Picasso's works on paper and. 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.199 You were given the lecture. I was giving a lecture. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.080 Very swanky, Eric, that's that's like you're like a proper 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.640 art guy. I mean, you're like really arty. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.600 I don't know. You want to ask the little old 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.880 lady in the first row that probably had just you know, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.400 finished a couple of pints and she was like falling asleep. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.920 But well that happens to everybody, So that happens advice, 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.520 so was Eric. But it was really interesting and and 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.600 and so I was telling them, you know a lot 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.240 of these stories about how you know Picasso and actually 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.719 Percassa was a lot of fun to work with. But 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.920 he was basically taking all these things back home and 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.199 working on them, and then in the morning, my dad, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.600 my grandpa would send someone to go pick it up. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.440 So net brown A, Pocasso says, and get that stuff 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:33.640 and bring it around and we'll print it. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.360 Yeah, and then well Pericassa would show up probably around 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.320 you know, one o'clock or you see. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.439 That's where I think Picassa was going wrong. He was, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.160 you know, the sleeping in every day he would get 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.120 much more done, but he was working until three four 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:48.920 in the morning. Yeah, okay, I wonder why that is 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.480 a strange man by all the kinds they say. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.520 Oh yeah, so my my joke when I was at 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.000 the oh yeah, yeah, sorry, well it's not really, it's 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:58.640 not really, Joe. I'll let you, I'll let you do 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.000 the fun. No, come on. So I usually basically put 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.559 a picture up at the beginning of the lecture of 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.959 Picasso and my grandfather on the beach holding me as 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.199 a baby, and I'll start by saying, you know, as 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.359 you can see, Picasso and I had many very intellectual 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.680 conversations about art and put on pump and eventually, once 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.200 I take that out, we can discuss. Basically, they understand 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.200 that I'm just repeating the stories that my grandfather and 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.720 my father told me, because really, I was three years 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.160 old when you passed away, really when Picasso passed away. Yeah, 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.560 but I mean, I mean, I'm good friends with Poloma. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.680 I was friends with also Agilo his Olmah's mother, his 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.880 ex partner. Yeah. Were they ever married, No, never married. 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.040 They had two kids. Clode right also unfortunately passed away 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.280 also last summer. Oh dear, and they were together for 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.600 about ten years, and she also worked with us. She 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.720 was one of the future. I think she was probably 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.600 the first woman that came to work at the studio. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.040 She's a pretty impressive customer, was she. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.280 She was she kind of look maybe I'm I'm talking 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.560 to turn here, but she wasn't particularly uh enamored with 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.840 her time with Picassa, was she? She She felt like 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.400 it was a very kind of restrictive relationship for her. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.200 Is that right? But that is that? Yeah? I mean 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.840 she was really she's she was an incredibly sweet woman. 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.040 I owe her a lot. When I got a second 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.240 divorce and I was really bummed, she caught me up. 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.680 She said, Eric, you don't even know what a sociopath is. 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.520 I was with one for ten years, let me tell you. 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.239 But but on the other hand, she was a sociopath. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.600 You think, well again, you know I was three years. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.120 Well yeah, I'm not. I'm not talking about personal experience. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.440 But but but the but the idea that you know, 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.360 I don't. I don't mean you you you know, the 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.480 people involved, you know, the circles I do. 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:56.840 I it's hard. Also, what is a sociopath? Yeah, that 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.200 is you know, I was sort of thinking about that. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.280 There's a lot of different kinds of them. As a 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.400 matter of fact, artist a lot of artists are at 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.400 least narcissistic. Well I think that, but some are more 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.760 narcissistic than others. I go into sociopathy, but he said, 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.360 by the way, sooth sociopathy? I don't know. 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.280 And the thing is, I I, you know, I can 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.240 only talk about it so long before I start thinking 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.600 about myself. So I but I don't I think that 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.920 it's you know, it's a buzzword right now as well. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.600 It comes in a broad spectrum of different things. So 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.320 he's a very complicated man. And but first of one, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.640 she Lowe is a very gifted artist herself. I've seen 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.000 some of her what it is amazing. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.560 She's incredibly talented. She was incredibly she was a great lethographer. Also, 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.360 she really did a lot with us. And my grandfather 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.960 was the only man or the only business person that 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.840 was allowed to still work with her because you know, 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.640 once she left Picasso and she's the only woman who 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.760 ever left Picasso. Once she left Picasso, that was it. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.840 He sued her for her book. He tried, he tried 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.520 to he tried to Harvey Weinstein her. Oh my god. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.200 It was like, yeah, she was he was trying to 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.320 cancel her, Oh my god. So even his dealer, Conviler 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.080 right was not allowed to where he called Fonso, I'm 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.359 very sorry, fan Swas, but you know, obviously I cannot 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.240 work with you anymore. And she couldn't have really dealers 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.320 working with her, but my grandfather for some reason, and 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.720 that's why I think fal So has always said your 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:33.120 your grandfather. With his you know, he had a profile 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.320 of a Roman senator. He was able to sort of 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.760 finesse it, and Picasso was totally fine with him continuing 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:40.359 to work with her. 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.480 I have a theory about this as well that I 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:47.400 think because your grandfather is an alpha personality himself, as 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.800 Picasso is right, and your grandfather also has the He's 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.119 got a lucrative wallpaper, but it doesn't need Picasso in 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.159 the same way that the other people need because he's 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.480 still living off of them. It's like if Picasso walks, 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:04.440 doesn't matter. He's still his business. He's still independently, you know, wealthy. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.119 He can do his thing. Am I right? Yeah. The 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.080 only thing is, uh, the funny bet about that is 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.359 we always say in the family, you know when we 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.080 say why, you know, why did this person come? Why 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.440 did this? Oh? Well, because we were the best printers 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.480 in the world. And you know, I think we're more 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.880 realistic than that, because I think my grandpa once said, 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.160 you know, the thing is, we printed Picassos so everybody 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.479 wanted Yeah. Yeah, I mean they did like Mirror, they did, 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.479 like Mereau, they did like Metist, they did like all 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.159 these other famous Henry Moore. We even it wasn't just 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.720 Kerwin in England. We actually printed also Henry Moore in 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.480 Grham Sutherland, and a lot of you know, Marino Marini, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.199 so artists from everywhere. Chagall especially because what we did 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.600 in World War two. Shagall when he came back from 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.960 New York only printed with us. What did you do 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.840 in World War two? So we my grandpa helped a 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.880 lot of our colleagues that were Jewish and that had 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.359 print shops, and and we also printed a lot of 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:03.000 fake papers. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.720 Oh really, so you printed fake ideas for their resistance 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.400 and stuff and for people to get out, right, because 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.520 the Nazis were were very funny ideas about art, didn't they. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.520 The Nazis are they? I mean, obviously you know there's 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.680 the anti Semitism. But the idea that they they talked 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.359 about modern art is being degenerate, right, but they were 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.360 collecting into yeah, of course, because they were pragmatic as 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.040 well as evil. But they had this they what was 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.239 that exhibition they had in Berlin. It was I think 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:38.239 it was before the war. It was the Degenerate Art 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.280 Exhibition or something, and they showed all they were showing 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.639 Picasso's and modern art and a gallery next to you know, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.000 proper as they said, Teutonic art. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.960 Which was like, you know, stags and rehatos and stuff. 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.880 And everybody went to see the degenerate art. They're like, oh, boobies, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.840 where do you come down on your p taste? Where 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:05.760 do you find yourself drawn more to modern contemporary pop art? 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.160 Or you a traditionalist? So because you're an art dealer, 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.440 right right? Yeah? So yeah, for me, listen, I'm not 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.240 one to tell people what is art where they should like, 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.440 you know, art is basically an expression of someone, you know, 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:29.399 someone's thoughts and feelings, usually through creative mediums. So it 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.320 could be music, it could be words, it could be 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.560 you know, visual anything, right, So who am I to 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:36.720 tell people what is good and what is not? I 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:38.560 know what I like. Well, that's that's more of what 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:40.640 I mean. What are you drawing? Yeah, so I'm drawn 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.960 to I'm very Catholic in my taste, and I don't 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.000 mean that in religious way. I mean I'm really open 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:50.560 to a lot of things, and I like certain classical 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.359 Aboriginal art, for example, is really interesting to me, and 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.200 it was interesting to Matisse and Picasso. And what I 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.159 like is that these people kept on renewing themselves. Not 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.800 crazy about see, I think there was some interesting pop 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:05.960 part in the sixties. I think that some of it 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.840 a little ridiculous though, and I think unfortunately it was 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.159 supposed to be kind of like a small closet, and 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.280 people made it kind of a big pathway, and now 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.920 it's that closet is getting really packed with people that 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:20.160 don't know what they're doing. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.480 Well, I think, you know, Andy bears a sentiment of 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.520 responsibility for that, for saying stuff like, you know, are 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.520 what you can get away with and like, no, no, 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.439 Andy Warhol is not. Although I have to say, if 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.359 you've been in the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh. 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:36.000 No I haven't been. 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.879 It's sensational, yeah, you know, the thing is about it 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.280 as well. It has all these Andy Worl pieces in it. 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.760