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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Noel.

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Speaker 4: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 4: super producer Paul. Mission Control decads. Most importantly, you are you,

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Speaker 4: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 4: don't want you to know. Some of us, longtime listeners,

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Speaker 4: fellow friends, family conspiracy realist may indeed take tonight's episode

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Speaker 4: as a sign from beyond right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just so we are.

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Speaker 4: In a bit of background. In an earlier episode, we

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Speaker 4: explored the concept of what some would call some being

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Speaker 4: us an internal conspiracy, the phenomenon or experience of hearing voices,

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Speaker 4: and we want to take a moment and thank everyone

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Speaker 4: who took the time to write in This was clearly

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Speaker 4: impactful for all of us here together tonight, and we

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Speaker 4: teased an episode that we are delivering upon this evening.

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Speaker 4: A related topic, the idea of what some would call

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Speaker 4: a spiritual conspiracy, and funnily enough, atheist and true believers

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Speaker 4: alike would call this a spiritual conspiracy. It turns out

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Speaker 4: that throughout human history, countless people have been called mad,

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Speaker 4: or have been worshiped, or anything in between for insisting

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Speaker 4: they have received communication from divine, supernatural, heavenly forces. Let's

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Speaker 4: be honest. We live in the United States, and in

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Speaker 4: any large city in the United States, you're just like

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Speaker 4: three to five blocks away from running into someone on

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Speaker 4: the streets who tells you that God speaks to them.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people who experience this live short, terrible lives,

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Speaker 4: but a few of them, driven but by what they

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Speaker 4: saw as righteous cause, fundamentally have changed the world. We're

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Speaker 4: asking what is divine intervention? And this is you know,

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Speaker 4: it's clearly going to be a sensitive topic for a

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Speaker 4: lot of people. Here are the facts. The first fact

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Speaker 4: is a disclaimer, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's something we say anytime we're talking about

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Speaker 3: matters of faith that your faith is your own. Are

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Speaker 3: various interpretations of spirituality and faith are our own, and

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Speaker 3: you know, never the Twain shall meet. I guess at

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Speaker 3: the very least, we are not trying to convince you

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Speaker 3: or in any way diminish your beliefs. This is a

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Speaker 3: matter of research and just fascination for us, so please

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Speaker 3: take it in the spirit in which it was intended

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Speaker 3: worth it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there is. With that being said, there is at

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Speaker 4: this point no universally accepted, scientifically recognized proof of a

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Speaker 4: higher power as portrayed in the majority of human spiritual

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Speaker 4: belief systems. But to that point, there is solid evidence

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Speaker 4: in fact that holding this idea of purpose of community

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Speaker 4: of a greater good in the human mind can massively

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Speaker 4: improve people's quality of life. It can help you, according

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Speaker 4: to some of the research we found, it can help

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Speaker 4: you live about four years longer on average.

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Speaker 3: I have often that I did ascribe some kind of

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Speaker 3: level of religious belief because I see it in others.

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Speaker 3: I see it in others who use it in the

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Speaker 3: manner that you're describing men, and they're very good people.

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Speaker 3: There are people who think of others, you know, guided

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Speaker 3: by principles. Oftentimes, of course, there are those that use

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Speaker 3: their spiritual beliefs as something of a cudgel against others.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody that listens to the show

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Speaker 3: is probably cool with that. And it's sort of a

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Speaker 3: bummer to see that, because it really does in some

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Speaker 3: ways diminish the value of these kinds of spiritual beliefs,

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Speaker 3: but I have often you know, I grew up Methodists,

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Speaker 3: and I sort of, you know, abandoned that type of

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Speaker 3: belief throughout the course of my life. But there are

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Speaker 3: times where I kind of wish that I hadn't and

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Speaker 3: that I could believe that because I do see it

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Speaker 3: in others and I'm like, ash, they seem so happy

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Speaker 3: and content. I wish I had that.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, lest I sound like a Philistine. I'm probably

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Speaker 4: misusing the word less. I sound like an infidel or

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Speaker 4: non believer. Methodists are the sprinkle sprinkle guys, right, Methodists

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Speaker 4: sprinkle for baptism and there's a sprink.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I think that's right. There's a sprink. It's

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Speaker 3: not the full submersion. Well, I don't know. There's different

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Speaker 3: flavors of it. I seem to recall growing up that

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Speaker 3: baptism wasn't as common. It's more of an event kind of.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't seem it's more about like they call it, confirmation,

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Speaker 3: I think, rather than baptism, and I think that's when

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Speaker 3: you get the sprinkle. Matt. I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: were you Methodist as well, or were you more on

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Speaker 3: the Baptist tip non de noom.

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Speaker 2: All of the above mostly Methodist and non denominational, but

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Speaker 2: for the purposes of this episode, the whole point of

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Speaker 2: even talking about religion is in this way is because

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Speaker 2: humans we like to or organized things. We like to

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Speaker 2: see patterns, especially when we look out into the world.

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Speaker 2: It helps a lot, I think, for us to give

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Speaker 2: meaning or reason behind life itself, both you know, personally

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Speaker 2: for ourselves and for the actions we take every day

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Speaker 2: and for our aims and goals, but also for the

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Speaker 2: you know, purposes of all the others around us that

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Speaker 2: we care about, right that we want to see again

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Speaker 2: after they perish the same way we will. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: and I think so far, yeah, and I think being

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Speaker 2: contacted by some force that is responsible for all of

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Speaker 2: that you know, good stuff, what could be seen as

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Speaker 2: one of the most powerful things that could ever potentially

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Speaker 2: happen to you.

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Speaker 3: And in most of these belief systems, to my understanding

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Speaker 3: at least, the fact that there is no scientifically kind

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Speaker 3: of grounded proof of God is a feature, not a bug,

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Speaker 3: because it requires you to have faith and to exercise

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Speaker 3: as this like I believe in what I cannot see

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Speaker 3: in front of me. That's like an important part of

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Speaker 3: being a follower of a lot of these.

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Speaker 4: Faiths, the absence of proof being proof all its own.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's also a strong possibility that the way

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Speaker 4: science as a philosophy, a pursuit, and dare we say,

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Speaker 4: a religion itself is constructed, it may simply be incapable

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Speaker 4: of proving or disproving certain aspects of spirituality. For instance,

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Speaker 4: if humanity cannot define consciousness, which can't, how on earth

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Speaker 4: does one begin to define a soul? Pardon the wordplay there.

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Speaker 4: It's true everything you guys are saying is true if

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Speaker 4: you were whether you are a dude in the wall, fundamentalist,

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Speaker 4: whatever your denomination, your genre a belief may be, whether

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Speaker 4: you're an occasional dabbler what do they call it, You

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Speaker 4: guys came up in Christianity, but like Easter Sunday Christian,

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Speaker 4: Eastern Christmas Christian something like that, the people only show

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Speaker 4: up on a couple of.

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Speaker 3: Days of the year.

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Speaker 4: Wherever you are in the spectrum, Even if you're a

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Speaker 4: diehard atheist, we can all readily admit the search for

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Speaker 4: this understanding of a nature of reality, this search for meaning,

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Speaker 4: it has been the prime mover for human civilization or

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Speaker 4: a prime mover definitely a rationalization for the movement of

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Speaker 4: empires since the dawn of time. And it's twenty twenty three, Friday,

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Speaker 4: September twenty ninth, as we record and billions of humans

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Speaker 4: across the planet right now do believe readily with certitude

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Speaker 4: that there is some sort of celestial pantheon, an order,

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Speaker 4: a heavenly ordered all reality. Like you are saying, Matt,

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Speaker 4: the human mind prizes patterns, prizes predictability. It's the reason

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Speaker 4: why this primate is the most popular of the bunch

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Speaker 4: so far. As a result, humans from the ancient past

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Speaker 4: to the modern day believed and believe that not only

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Speaker 4: their existence but also their actions are in some way

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Speaker 4: serving a greater purpose if those actions are good. Now,

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Speaker 4: I do want to for the atheists and the crowd,

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Speaker 4: I do want to acknowledge this belief in God or

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Speaker 4: the divine is kind of similar to sophisticated tool making.

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Speaker 4: That might be offensive to some people, but if you

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Speaker 4: look at the practice on the ground, the tendencies toward

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Speaker 4: building sophisticated tools, they're kind of one to one with

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Speaker 4: the tendencies of building a sophisticated religious ideology that happens

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Speaker 4: to agree with whatever you want to do.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and to that point, then, even like an

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Speaker 3: atheist's kind of philosophy or perspective, you know, philosophy often

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Speaker 3: crosses paths with spirituality. You know, we have folks that

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Speaker 3: are like, well, not sure about God, but here's some

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Speaker 3: ideas that sort of explain some of these things. And

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Speaker 3: a lot of times if you really dig deep into

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Speaker 3: certain philosophers of the past, there is a certain mysticism

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Speaker 3: even inherent in that kind of thinking. It's, you know,

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Speaker 3: to your point about the pursuit of these types of answers.

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Speaker 3: Philosophy in and of itself, it's not science, but it's

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Speaker 3: also not religion. It's its own kind of cross section

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Speaker 3: of the two. I always found that very interesting.

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Speaker 4: And philosophy is kind of like the isolated biological father

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Speaker 4: of science in a lot of ways. And when you

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Speaker 4: look toward the bleeding edges of modern science again here

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three, as we're calling the calendar, what

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Speaker 4: we see is that the guesses in astrophysics and things

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Speaker 4: that tackle the very large the very small, like quantum physics,

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Speaker 4: that becomes philosophy because there there's a relatively rarefied segment

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Speaker 4: of the population that is even able to competently argue

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Speaker 4: with that. And if you're a world expert, then your

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Speaker 4: guess becomes a lot like a lot like a religious screed.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, it's you know, we talk about history

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Speaker 4: quite often because history is never history really, and empires

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Speaker 4: countless empires pretty much all empires at some point claimed

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Speaker 4: the approval of a God or a pantheon of God's.

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Speaker 4: Countless wars have been fought with the approval of those

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Speaker 4: divine forces. The implication was always that whomever opposes us

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Speaker 4: is somehow moving against this greater good. These are powers,

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Speaker 4: somehow infernal forces.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and when you look at the history

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Speaker 3: of civilization and empires, you often look at it very

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Speaker 3: similarly to what we maybe see as modern day politics,

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Speaker 3: where it's like, do you really believe this or are

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Speaker 3: you just wielding it to exert control over the populace.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that certainly feels real to me.

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Speaker 4: And rabble right, the same story always everyone everyone believed

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Speaker 4: there was some sort of greater reality. Everyone believed in

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Speaker 4: the past, that there was some sort of to your point,

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Speaker 4: that some sort of order an order that could be discerned. However,

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Speaker 4: the problem was historically not everyone agreed on what this

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Speaker 4: authority was, the specifics the mechanics of this authority, and

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Speaker 4: they didn't agree on what the authority wanted. So people

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Speaker 4: from different cultures were often super duper offended when they

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Speaker 4: met other cultures that did not share their specific beliefs.

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Speaker 4: They were like, these guys, are they even human?

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Speaker 3: Which is funny because how could they, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, Like these things form in their own little vacuums.

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Speaker 3: It just doesn't really, you know, stand to reason that

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Speaker 3: someone from a completely different part of the world at

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Speaker 3: a time where there was no Internet or quick means

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Speaker 3: of communication would possibly have your exact same framework. The

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Speaker 3: fact of the matter is, though, that there is no

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Speaker 3: human culture that doesn't believe in the divine and ben

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Speaker 3: you put that in the outline, and while I maybe

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Speaker 3: have internally understood that, to see it kind of writ

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Speaker 3: large and bold like that, I was like, Oh, I

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Speaker 3: guess that's true.

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Speaker 4: Huh.

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Speaker 3: Even fascinating.

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Speaker 4: Even cultures that might be considered atheistic by their opponents

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Speaker 4: have something like animism, or have something like ancestor war,

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Speaker 4: and the problem grows more complicated as a result of that.

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Speaker 4: You know, these belief systems quite sophisticated and are quite sophisticated,

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Speaker 4: and within their stories these things contain all explanations for

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Speaker 4: the natural world as well as politically convenient explanations for

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Speaker 4: why the group that follows the belief should sort of

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Speaker 4: be in charge, right like, let's save the Heathens, let's

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Speaker 4: save the savages, let's convert the infidels, Let's bring them

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Speaker 4: to a greater truth and take their blood and treasure

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Speaker 4: along the way.

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Speaker 3: Well, it does make me think of the idea of

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Speaker 3: like advanced you know civilizations like you know, like in

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Speaker 3: the film Arrival, for example, or the idea of like

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Speaker 3: other aliens, you know, civilizations that we don't know about.

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Speaker 3: It almost feels like this stuff arises from a lack

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Speaker 3: of knowledge. It arises from a lack of understanding, and

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Speaker 3: a suitably further advanced civilization might not even need this

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Speaker 3: at all, because they're already imbued with the truths of

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Speaker 3: the spheres and of the universe. So this is a

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Speaker 3: stand in for having answers at the end of the day.

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Speaker 4: You know, sure, and then advanced civilization might well argue.

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Speaker 4: Many science fiction authors have argued that the closest you

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Speaker 4: can get to divine intervention is the understanding of math.

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Speaker 4: But story for another day. Perhaps during times of religious persecution,

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Speaker 4: which continue today as you are listening to this, it

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Speaker 4: is doubtlessly true that thousands of people are being killed

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Speaker 4: because of conflicting religious beliefs. It's still exceedingly rare for

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Speaker 4: people to suddenly give up these beliefs. We have to

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Speaker 4: realize that people have been tortured, you know, they've been

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Speaker 4: forced to watch their own families degraded or executed, and

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Speaker 4: even then, billions of people then, as today, they have

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Speaker 4: chosen to stay true to their religion. Now science might

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Speaker 4: explain this the lens of some cost fallacy or social dynamics,

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Speaker 4: but if we take the larger view, if we dare

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Speaker 4: disturb the universe and move outside of the comfort zone here,

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Speaker 4: then what we see is that there is something so important,

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Speaker 4: so defining, that, in countless incidents, billions of people have

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Speaker 4: chosen to die rather than to lose that part of

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Speaker 4: their identity, Which means that no matter what us listening,

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Speaker 4: no matter what we may personally identify with, there is

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Speaker 4: something profoundly important, fundamental about this belief in the divide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it can. It can change the course of war,

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Speaker 2: it can change the leaders of an empire. Some divinely

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Speaker 2: inspired message you know from God can change who's sitting

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Speaker 2: on thrones. And there's there are countless examples of this

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Speaker 2: where you know, I'm just really quickly guys. You point

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Speaker 2: to the Bible first Kings in I think it's chapter

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Speaker 2: nineteen where Elijah goes up and is hanging out on

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Speaker 2: Mount Sinai alone and God comes to him and says, hey,

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Speaker 2: go back down there and appoint these specific people to

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Speaker 2: these specific you know you know. Yeah, And also additionally,

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Speaker 2: God says, those people are going to kill everybody who

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Speaker 2: you know, their predecessors did work able to kill, and

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Speaker 2: then we'll basically get a bunch of more followers. Those

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Speaker 2: who don't believe in BAI basically are ball. But you know,

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Speaker 2: that's a you then have to believe that Elijah actually

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Speaker 2: talked to God up on the mountain to then institute

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Speaker 2: mass of political changes in a city or felt like

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Speaker 2: you did. But yeah, so I mean that's who knows.

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Speaker 3: What was the Golden Calf story, the the you know

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Speaker 3: group that was worshiping idols and then they were basically

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Speaker 3: you know, murdered.

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Speaker 4: You know it was it was made by the Israelites,

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Speaker 4: and the the idea apocryphal. The idea is that there

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Speaker 4: were it was. It was a physical metality construction in

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Speaker 4: which children were children or politically inconvenient people were sacrificed

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Speaker 4: by being cooked alive in the thing. And then Moses,

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Speaker 4: who makes an appearance in tonight's episode, comes down and says, hey, guys,

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Speaker 4: God said that's not a good look, and you gotta

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Speaker 4: stop doing it. And they're like, do we have to

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Speaker 4: stop killing people? He goes put a pin in that part.

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Speaker 4: The main thing is we we just can't do it

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Speaker 4: with the calf anymore.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, well, and also the divine inspiration, like

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Speaker 2: being touched and told to do something right. It's really

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Speaker 2: fascinating to see how God makes appearances in what form,

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Speaker 2: you know, a god takes to communicate things. In the

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Speaker 2: case of Eliza, right there, it was basically a storm

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Speaker 2: that appeared on the mountain and talked to him, but

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Speaker 2: then also was a bunch of wind, and then was

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Speaker 2: also a whisper.

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Speaker 4: In Elijah's here ah the quiet still voice inside you. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: we see the dilemmas inherent in this just by comparing

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Speaker 4: social dynamics right with the concept of the personal spiritual compass.

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Speaker 4: By the inherent assumption. This is an axiom for any

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Speaker 4: divine intervention argument, for the inherent assumption that a god

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Speaker 4: or some gods exist, one could imagine if people were better,

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Speaker 4: if they rolled better on diplomacy, they could talk it out.

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Speaker 4: That's not that's not the case. You know, despite the

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Speaker 4: fact that all empires of the past had some sort

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Speaker 4: of spiritual belief that is a common thread, right, that

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Speaker 4: is a common starting point, they disagreed vehemently about the specifics.

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Speaker 4: If your civilization a and you roll up and say, oh, man,

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Speaker 4: Zeus is dope, and people say Zeus is just some

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Speaker 4: weird thing that you guys made up. We're you know,

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Speaker 4: we're uh, we're where's the.

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Speaker 3: Astrian people, I'll take the Pepsi challenge against Zeus any

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Speaker 3: day of the week. Right, our guy is clearly.

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Speaker 4: Going to win out, you know, And Pepsi has saved

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Speaker 4: a lot of religions in that respect that the one

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Speaker 4: proof could be easily dismissed because there was no evidence

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Speaker 4: for another civilization that could be considered objectively. So when

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Speaker 4: an empire fell, or when an empire took over another group.

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Speaker 4: The winners of the conflict also took that as evidence

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Speaker 4: that their beliefs were correct. Otherwise, why would God have

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Speaker 4: let them win? But there's another pickle in the jar,

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Speaker 4: another badger in the bag. Beyond the abstract here, Matt,

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Speaker 4: I love the points you're bringing up. Let's go to

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Speaker 4: the individual. Let's go to the microcosmic level. What if

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Speaker 4: your God or God's spoke to you. What if at

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Speaker 4: the height of battle or just some random you know,

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Speaker 4: ancient equivalent of four point thirty on a Friday in

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Speaker 4: random day. What if divine forces appear to intervene on

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Speaker 4: your behalf. What if they chose you as the messenger?

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Speaker 4: What if they tilted the very odds of reality in

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Speaker 4: your favor? Heavenly casino rules where the dealer purposely gives

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Speaker 4: you a blackjack. That's sorry, Vegas, still up my mind with.

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Speaker 3: All of us.

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Speaker 4: It's all of us, man, What do you guys say,

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Speaker 4: should we should we pause for a word from our sponsors?

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Speaker 4: Have some divine intervention or sponsorship intervention, commercial intervention?

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Speaker 3: I think so.

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Speaker 4: Here's where it gets crazy, This idea of an omniscient

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Speaker 4: omnipotent force touching you, specifically choosing you, speaking to you,

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Speaker 4: giving you a task. This is the definition of divine intervention,

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Speaker 4: the idea that there are certain identifiable situations wherein some

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Speaker 4: ordinarily inexplicable force decides to say, hey you, Hey, you

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Speaker 4: over the Battle of Long Island, or hey you over

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Speaker 4: just just about to go for first chair clarinet. Right,

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Speaker 4: you're the one and you just need to do actions A,

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Speaker 4: B and C.

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Speaker 2: And it's also the concept of someone being saved in

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Speaker 2: an unsavable situation and position right.

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Speaker 4: The odds work out in your favor. Yeah, something like

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Speaker 4: to go this will be the last Vegas example, something

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Speaker 4: like hitting on eighteen and getting a three. You know

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Speaker 4: what I mean, the odds are very low. But in

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Speaker 4: the case of divine intervention, to your point, that's a

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Speaker 4: beautiful setup, Matt. Some of the most notable examples are

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Speaker 4: from times of conflict.

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Speaker 3: Oh sure, you mentioned the Battle of Long Island, George Washington.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned off Mike Ben that we recently did an

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Speaker 3: episode of Ridiculous History about Aaron Burr, and of these

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Speaker 3: battles actually came up. These historical battles where like the

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Speaker 3: tide turned on a dime kind of right. So in

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Speaker 3: the Battle of.

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Speaker 4: Long Island, also met Noel doesn't like Hamilton Musical.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, I didn't say that. I said I

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Speaker 3: didn't finish watching it because I got distracted. I didn't

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Speaker 3: not like it. I think it's quite remarkable. I rose

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Speaker 3: to you, I know, roast Aways and you also mentioned

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Speaker 3: Ben on the podcast Ridiculous History episode that hype can

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Speaker 3: be a hell of a drug, and sometimes it can

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Speaker 3: be a thing that maybe turns you off a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I didn't get into the Beatles till I was in

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Speaker 3: my late twenties. I think largely because they seemed like,

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Speaker 3: you know, oh, everybody likes the Beatles. You know that

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Speaker 3: they must be kind of square. Gosh, I sound like

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Speaker 3: a grandpa, but yeah. George Washington and his fellows August

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Speaker 3: twenty seventh, seventeen seventy six, the Battle of Long Island.

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Speaker 3: Things were not going well. They had just signed the

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Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence, but at this point British forces had

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Speaker 3: George and his mates boxed in, trapped in New York City.

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Speaker 3: They were out gunned, out classed, outnumbered. They were not

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Speaker 3: trained it. Do it, do it, do it. No, you

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Speaker 3: can be a new man. That's all I know. I know,

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Speaker 3: that's all I know. Guys, that's all I get. Give

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Speaker 3: it to us, Matt, whatever we're doing it, I can't.

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Speaker 2: I can't do. You know how many references we've made

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Speaker 2: to that stuff over the years, just like slyly under

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Speaker 2: the radar.

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Speaker 3: Under my radar, for damn sure.

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Speaker 2: But they were out gunned and they were out manned.

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Speaker 2: That's all you need to know.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, they were gunned, out man out classed out,

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Speaker 3: you know, foxed out all the things. And it wasn't good. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they were trapped, like I said, boxed in New York City, starving,

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Speaker 3: freezing the wait, what is it the scent thick? No,

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Speaker 3: that's something else that's different. That's sorry. I've only seen

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Speaker 3: the the intro. There's no escape across the East River.

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Speaker 3: It certainly wasn't a Brooklyn Bridge at the time, and

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Speaker 3: the waters were teeming with British warships. This New American

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Speaker 3: experiment could have ended before it began, until.

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Speaker 4: Dumb dum dum. Two weeks later. It's August twenty ninth.

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Speaker 4: The weather takes what the folks on the ground see

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Speaker 4: as an unpredictable turn for the worst. On top of everything,

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Speaker 4: you're George Washington. You're a few weeks into you know,

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Speaker 4: this idea of the United States, and you're like, ah,

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Speaker 4: damn it. Now it's also raining. What's going on? Fast forward?

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Speaker 4: The rain creates an astonishing fog, what seems to be

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Speaker 4: an extraordinarily convenient fog. The next morning, people who are

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Speaker 4: in the fog can, according to primary sources, they can

403
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Speaker 4: scarcely discern a man from six yards distance. So this

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00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: is honestly, this is like classic British pea soup fog

405
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Speaker 4: they call it. And the British are stuck waiting for

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Speaker 4: this fog to clear so they can continue whipping the

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Speaker 4: American forces. But over where the US forces are based,

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Speaker 4: the weather's fine, the weather's okay. They're still starving, they're

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Speaker 4: still really cold, they still don't have guns, they're still outnumbered,

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Speaker 4: but they can see.

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Speaker 3: It's like the sad rain cloud that only hangs out

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Speaker 3: over Charlie Brown. It's like localized, right.

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Speaker 2: But think about how horrifying that situation must have been

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Speaker 2: for the British troops. Like knowing that there are others

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Speaker 2: around you but you cannot see anything.

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Speaker 3: Spooky stuff.

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Speaker 4: Gosh, it's like the fear of the open ocean.

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Speaker 3: Do you think and to that point, Ben, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of you know, uhlogy or mythologizing of

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Speaker 3: you know, life at sea, all of that stuff, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the superstitions around that. Do you think you know,

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Speaker 3: these are all going to have been religious men, you know,

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Speaker 3: do you think they would have clocked at that moment

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Speaker 3: that there was some force at play that was working

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Speaker 3: against them?

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Speaker 4: Maybe in retrospect, because in the heat of the battle,

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Speaker 4: the idea is to survive.

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Speaker 3: Right, sure?

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Speaker 4: And what's that old saying there are no atheists in foxholes.

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Speaker 3: That's but we do talk about psyops though, and like

431
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Speaker 3: spooking armies, you know, into like fleeing by you know,

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Speaker 3: playing recordings of their dead ancestors and stuff. I just

433
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: wonder if somebody in that British crew was like, yo,

434
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: there's there's some infernal forces at play that are not

435
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 3: on our side.

436
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 4: White possibly, However, the British Empire was very much and

437
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 4: ostensibly remains a theocracy, even as the population grows increasingly

438
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 4: in the archipelago itself. But it's a good question. Did

439
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 4: anyone look around and say, like, oh no, Admiral George

440
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: has a fog machine. No, they didn't, because fog machines

441
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 4: have not been invented, and no one it's important. No

442
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 4: one in these conflicts historically says God is against us,

443
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: we should surrender. What they say instead is we have

444
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 4: to earn it right. And there's not really a lot

445
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: of active philosophy in well, there aren't active quote unquote,

446
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: although I hate the term learned philosophers. No one's like, well,

447
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: what about determinism at this point?

448
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: What they're time?

449
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: No time, right, Let's try to survive. This fog is

450
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: extraordinarily convenient. It is a meteorological lottery because it gives

451
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 4: George and the boys, George and the gang the exact

452
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: time and cover they need to successfully retreat with the

453
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 4: help of Aerinburg. People don't like to admit it, but

454
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 4: he helped with the help of Arenberg and George sneaks

455
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 4: nine thousand troops away from the battle into the relative

456
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: temporary band aid safety of Manhattan. Since there's not a

457
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 4: meteorologist around to ruin everybody's great time with weather and

458
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 4: science talk. Multiple sources later conclude it turns out that

459
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 4: Yahweh himself that God is a big fan of the

460
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: United States, and they say the same thing again not

461
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 4: too many decades later, it's like the War of eighteen twelve.

462
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: Let's go to that eighteen fourteen. Yet again the British

463
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 4: have the US on their ass.

464
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they invaded and took Washington, DC, and they started

465
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: burning major buildings there, like we're talking the White House,

466
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: the Capitol Building, set the things on fire.

467
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 4: Or they go to the White before they burn the

468
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 4: White House, though they sacked the pantry.

469
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

470
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: Oh they all had each other.

471
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, young market sweep kind of situation. Dude.

472
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: There are there are primary sources, Uh, there's one. There

473
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: are a couple of books, but one of the major

474
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: books in here is by George Robert Gleig g l

475
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: e i G. Who wrote a book called the Campaigns

476
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: of the British Army at Washington in the and New

477
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: Orleans in the years eighteen fourteen to eighteen fifteen. And

478
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: it is so crazy to see him describing Washington, d

479
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: C at the time, and it's all all the language

480
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: is basically like, oh, there was nothing upon which to remark.

481
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: It was just a few buildings. It's just like literally

482
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: like there's there are no characteristics anywhere that I can

483
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: even comment upon about the choice though.

484
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: I mean, like it wouldn't be what we know it

485
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: as today, certainly, like the monuments and all of that.

486
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: It would have been kind of a lot of temporary

487
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: type things, right or what would it have looked like

488
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: at the time.

489
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 4: I'm cures way fewer monuments. It's uh, us still had

490
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: the new car smell. They didn't know whether it was

491
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 4: going to work.

492
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: That's the other thing he's saying is like, oh, this

493
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: is a newborn, this newborn thing. And he calls it

494
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: a commercial society or a commercial country, which which.

495
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 4: Is which is uh, the the historical equivalent of a

496
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 4: sneak diss. Yeah, it's the idea. The idea is like,

497
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 4: look at these guys. They're just about money. They don't

498
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 4: they don't understand our grand mission.

499
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well and it and it literally he he

500
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: states like, they didn't do anything. They didn't have any

501
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: plan for when we British troops were going to roll

502
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: through there. They literally just kind of took off running

503
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: when we showed up, and we just all.

504
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 4: Their stuff unlettered merchants.

505
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 3: Oh nice.

506
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: Well, so so the story goes, they begin burning Washington, DC.

507
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: And then very soon after there is one of those

508
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: crazy storms like a durecho or you know, maybe a

509
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: tornado that rolls through allegedly a tornado, but definitely crazy

510
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: high winds that roll through and torrential rains. And so

511
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: as Washington, DC is burning, something causes all of those

512
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: fires to go out with this rain.

513
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: Right, this is like Moses level stuff, y'all. I mean

514
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: in a minute, but that's wait, yeah, no, no doubt.

515
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: But it all depends on perspective, right, it depends on what,

516
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: like how you're feeling, which side you're on, Like, what

517
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: does this mean that the storm came through, because it

518
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: did kill at least according to some sources, it killed

519
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of British troops. But I've only I've

520
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: only seen it officially written that two or a few

521
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: other British troops actually were killed as a result of

522
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: the storm. But there were thirty Americans who were killed

523
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: as a result of the storm, largely due to debris

524
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: and collapsing buildings.

525
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: And flying cows twister style.

526
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 4: But the flying golden calves, yeah, there you.

527
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: Go, ball and all that stuff. And but or was

528
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: that m Moulloch thinks, yeah, so, But the craziest thing

529
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: is that there were a bunch of buildings in Washington,

530
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: DC that were not burned by British troops but were

531
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 2: completely leveled by the storm.

532
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 4: So God does construction too.

533
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

534
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 4: Also also counterpoy, you could say, you know, if we've

535
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 4: got this storm troop atitude that is so prevalent in

536
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 4: American history, maybe it looks like two British soldiers because

537
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 4: they all had the same names, you know what I mean,

538
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 4: Maybe it was all Maybe it was like Stevenson seventy

539
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 4: to eighty, George George's and Steven Steve. But no, you're right, Matt.

540
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 4: This this is this is a point that I think

541
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: is incredibly crucial the idea, Like you could say it's

542
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: divine intervention because the fires went out, But could you

543
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 4: also say, how does one explain the damage the fact

544
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 4: that innocent civilians, right, not not military members fighting for

545
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 4: the forces God apparently supports, They were killed and buildings

546
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 4: that were not being burned were not integral to the

547
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 4: construction of the United States. Those buildings also got wrecked. Uh,

548
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 4: I I don't know. We've got a note here too

549
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 4: to talk about some of the the GETTAA tactics.

550
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: Uh, oh, we don't do. It was just a it's

551
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: just an aside about it. That same author was talking

552
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: about a time when his company was marching through a

553
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 2: battlefield where British troops had just won a battle against

554
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: American troops. I've got it right here. It's it's just

555
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: a quote. It was interesting to me because again, it

556
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: speaks to the American Revolution. It speaks to the way

557
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: people thought about the ordered nature of many things, and

558
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: especially the ordered nature of war and the rules that

559
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: are applied to it. So here it goes. Quote one object, however,

560
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: struck me as curious. I saw several men hanging lifeless

561
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: among the branches of trees, and learned they had been

562
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: riflemen who chose during the battle to fix themselves in

563
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: these elevated positions for the combined purposes of securing a

564
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: good aim and avoiding danger. Whatever might be their success

565
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: in the first of these designs, in the last they failed,

566
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: for our men soon discovered them, and, considering the thing

567
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: as unfair, refused to give them quarter and shot them

568
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: on their purchase.

569
00:36:59,360 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

570
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 4: But again, and there's there's there's yet again. This rationalization

571
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 4: of less than right that the executing this sort of behavior.

572
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

573
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 4: Look, well, you know how if you don't if you

574
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 4: don't like someone, you're going to find a reason to

575
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: rationalize your dislike.

576
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: And giving quarter, by the way, is like mercy in

577
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 3: a war situation. Yeah, creating a pow instead of a body,

578
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: got it.

579
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: But I guess to me, the interesting thing is that

580
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: it the use of the word unfair because there are

581
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: the rules about the battlefield, how you fought or how

582
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: you were allowed to engage others, right, But in this case,

583
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: these guys are up in trees, firing from the firing

584
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: at them, and you know, the British troops can't see

585
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: where it's coming from until they do. And then instead

586
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: of giving them quarter and you know, taking them as prisoners,

587
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: they just kill him. But just previously in that book

588
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: he describes and goes in a huge section about encountering

589
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: a soldier in the bushes who had been shot in

590
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: the leg, and it just describes how the American told him, well,

591
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: we've been told that you British troops will give no quarter,

592
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: so we also are going to give no quarter. And

593
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: the author is taken aback by that, so he like

594
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: picks him up, takes him over to a hospital, gets

595
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: his leg amputated, and you know, saves him and everything.

596
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: And it's partly propaganda as to you know, the greatness

597
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: of our side when it's a British soldier writing about

598
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: this kind of thing, but it's also, I don't know,

599
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: it speaks somehow to the what we're talking about, the

600
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: way an individual feels like God is on my side,

601
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: in my team's side. Right, I'm doing the right thing.

602
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: But in this case they were unfair.

603
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 4: So right, because it's different when it's you. Human individuals

604
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: tend to suffer from main characters syndrome make a narcissism. Right,

605
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 4: I have a reason for doing what I'm doing, and

606
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 4: your thing, if it does not, my thing is therefore incorrect.

607
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: I mean, we could create an entire series about all

608
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 4: the purported divine interventions during the heat of war, the

609
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 4: angels showing up in World War One in Europe, for instance.

610
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 4: We could talk at length about these things, and I

611
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 4: hope there is a podcast doing this, because otherwise off

612
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 4: to create it. But these examples across the world throughout history,

613
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 4: they occur, and we can see commonalities. In many cases,

614
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 4: something strange happened, and eclipse maybe save someone from being

615
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 4: sacrificed or turns the tide of a battle. In a

616
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 4: culture that does not have technology such that they can

617
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 4: understand or predict the passages of the moon or the sun,

618
00:39:53,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 4: a natural weather event like this like this storm in DC, disaster,

619
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 4: an earthquake, right, a flood, a wildfire, et cetera, et cetera.

620
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 4: What we see also in commonality is that after the

621
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: event in retrospect, moments, years, decades later, survivors look back

622
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 4: and if they feel like their team one, they ascribe

623
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 4: that event to the hand of the divine. With the

624
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 4: benefit of retrospect and with research, it is entirely possible

625
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 4: for the more skeptical amid us to dismiss a lot

626
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 4: of these as clearly explicable phenomena that were simply convenient

627
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 4: to accept and then misunderstood at the time. But still

628
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: that's not quite as interesting as the cases of divine intervention,

629
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 4: wherein someone claims God said, hey you, you, specifically you,

630
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 4: I'm real, I have a thing I need you to do.

631
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 4: Do me a couple of favors while you're up on Earth.

632
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 4: And that's where we get to like messengers profits and

633
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 4: in the interest of playing along at home, you might

634
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: be able to predict the next event our ad break.

635
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: And we're back getting to the part of the episode

636
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 3: that I think I've personally been very excited to get to,

637
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: the discussion of profits and some truly ancient historical stories

638
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 3: of divine intervention in battle. Ben I mentioned earlier that

639
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 3: in some of these cases of a fog, a tornado

640
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: or whatever, really brings your mind back to Biblical times

641
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: and you know, Moses and the parting of the Red

642
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 3: Sea and all of that stuff. And there's a really

643
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 3: great article from The Guardian that talks about some research

644
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 3: that explained the parting of the Red Sea as being

645
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 3: basically just a wrong east wind that blew overnight. But

646
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: of course, in the way that it's dramatized and whatever

647
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: you believe, we have to acknowledge that the Bible is

648
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 3: dramatized to a certain degree. It probably didn't part right

649
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 3: when Moses, you know, lifted his hands. It may have

650
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 3: happened overnight, you know, but it's a lot less sexy

651
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: of a scene when you talk about it that way.

652
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, Yeah, profits, The idea of the individual, right,

653
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 4: that is what consumes the human species. Everyone is a

654
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 4: protagonist in their own story, and so these concepts of

655
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 4: I don't know. Even if you look at the news

656
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 4: or larger events today, you realize that people want a

657
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: face on a problem. Whether they agree with a cause,

658
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 4: whether they disagree with the cause, they want to face

659
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 4: they can put on it. And so instead of for instance,

660
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 4: talking about buzzwords like climate change or the further ecological

661
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 4: degradation of the planet, the planet's going to be fine.

662
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 4: Humans might not, but the planet will be fine overall.

663
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 4: They don't want the stats, you know, they don't want

664
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 4: the they don't want the studies. They want the Greta Thumberg.

665
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 4: They want. They want to face and they can and

666
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 4: they can substitute that. In this practice in literature is

667
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: called metonomy. You have a smaller thing that represents a

668
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 4: greater idea. People love metonomy, even if they don't know

669
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 4: the name autonomy. They dig it, right. That's why celebrities

670
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 4: are so popular, That's why gods are so popular. So

671
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 4: the most famous instance, therefore, are instances of divine intervention

672
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 4: come from individual accounts of people and about people in

673
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 4: the West right now, and I would hazard globally across

674
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: all the eight plus billion people living today. The most famous,

675
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 4: uh the most famous example of divine intervention is Jesus

676
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 4: Christ under a variety of names, variety of translations, a

677
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 4: monopoly of perspectives. This one figure who still remains to

678
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 4: be clear historically disputed by the secular world. This figure

679
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 4: is the most famous example of divine intervention, differentiated from

680
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 4: other prophets because the Christian faith says, this person or

681
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 4: this individual did not just get messages from the divine,

682
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 4: this person actually was Divine is Divine is God, the

683
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 4: least is God made flesh. And this belief is so

684
00:44:53,840 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 4: important that denominations of Christianity overall each other for what

685
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 4: would seem like relatively trivial disagreements upon the nature of

686
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 4: this single, this single human, godlike individual. There are other

687
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 4: incredibly influential prophets successfully created religions or spread the word

688
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 4: of their divine revelations. The prophet Mohammad piece be unto

689
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 4: him Moses, as you mentioned earlier, Nol. In every single case,

690
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: these individuals are tasked with specific missions to spread the

691
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 4: capital g capital w good word, to save as much

692
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 4: of humanity as possible, and to free people from bondage

693
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 4: in the case of Moses and the miracles. And then

694
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 4: there are the more kind of on the ground prophets

695
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 4: or messengers who are divinely inspired to pursue secular goals

696
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: on behalf of a greater purpose. I would call a

697
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 4: lot of the war priest. Like Joe Bark is a

698
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 4: war priest. You know, she's kind of for Anny Fellow

699
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 4: d and d nerds out there, dungeons and dragons nerds.

700
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 4: She's kind of a paladin. I think she informed the

701
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 4: idea of a dungeons and dragons or what is it

702
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 4: met ultima paladin? Do they have paladins and ultima.

703
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: Well maybe, and they definitely have them in the Fallout games,

704
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 3: Like there's a whole sect of these armored you know,

705
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: suit wearing kind of religious zealot sort of knights of

706
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: the future.

707
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 4: So what is a paladin then, in that regard.

708
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 3: To my understanding, it is, you know, a military leader

709
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: that is acting on a message or instructions from God.

710
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: You know, it's like a combination priest and general almost right,

711
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 3: or at the very least, someone that can command others,

712
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: you know, by wielding not only weapons of war, but

713
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: you know, messages.

714
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 4: Of the divine yes, yeah, and the world of fiction,

715
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 4: a paladin is descended from the Western idea of the crusader,

716
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 4: but there are many, many other iterations of that in

717
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 4: the real world and throughout history. So Joan of Arc

718
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 4: aka street name Made of Orleans, also Saint Joan of

719
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 4: Arc nowadays, has a very interesting story. She was born

720
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 4: in a working class, lower class family in fourteen twelve.

721
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 4: By her own admission, she began hearing voices at the

722
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 4: age of twelve, and she heard the voices of specific saints,

723
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 4: sort of like how Gabriel the Angel spoke to the

724
00:47:53,640 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 4: prophet Mohammed. She's not immediately hearing directly from God. She's

725
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 4: hearing from our representatives of a divine for Saint Michael,

726
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: Saint Catharine, Saint Margaret. She's also illiterate, so there is

727
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 4: no primary source of her life written in her hand.

728
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 4: She told people about this until she got in trouble,

729
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 4: and she said it was saints and other divine beings

730
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 4: or intercessors, if we want to put a tie on it,

731
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 4: who guided her infamous combat strategies by this time, Let's

732
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 4: be honest, fourteen hundreds Western Europe. She has not the

733
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 4: first person to claim to have heard voices, and claiming

734
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 4: to hear voices or demons is a well established part

735
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 4: of the culture in which she was born and later

736
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 4: burned alive at the age of nineteen. But here's the thing, though,

737
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 4: if you look at the tactics, if you look at

738
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 4: the battles and campaigns in which Joan of Arc participated,

739
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 4: doesn't matter if you believe in God. She was really good.

740
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 4: She was super good, at the very least incredibly lucky.

741
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 4: Like she got shot through the neck with an arrow,

742
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 4: she kept going. She had all these fatal wounds she

743
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 4: had suffered that would have put anyone else down. Other

744
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 4: people died easily as a result of getting shot through

745
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 4: the neck. But this Joan of Arc character is ten

746
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 4: toes down. And if you look at her various successful conflicts,

747
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 4: it is a heck of a track record. You can

748
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 4: understand why so many people might believe she was divinely inspired.

749
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 4: And it does seem that she, at least according to

750
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: what we have as primary sources and so on, it

751
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 4: does seem that she believed she was experiencing messages from beyond.

752
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: Well.

753
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: I think that's the difference between someone you know on

754
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: the streets claiming to be a prophet, whether it's in

755
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: biblical times or if it's in the fourteen hundreds, or

756
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: if it's in you know, twenty twenty three. The difference

757
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: is if there are actions that actually appear somehow on

758
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 2: the service to back up what's being stated, right. I mean,

759
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: that's why it works for Moses. That's why he's in

760
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: the books and why he's lauded in the way he is.

761
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 2: That's that's why Joan of Arc is because people watched

762
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: her take an arrow and then just keep going.

763
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 4: You know, I can't argue with the results. I feel

764
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 4: you on that one. I agree, you know, But the

765
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 4: problem is, you know, think about it. In a time

766
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 4: of conflict in these theocracies, that person is convenient. They

767
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 4: rally the troops. Turns out they're good as bad. Max

768
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 4: fury Road would say they're good.

769
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 3: At making war.

770
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 4: However, once that conflict, once that chaos is quelled, these

771
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 4: same demagogues become politically disadvantageous. So Joan of Arc outlived

772
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: her political usefulness. Unfortunately for the powers that be, she

773
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 4: survived all those conflicts that she won. They would have

774
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: loved it. I'm sure if she died tragically at some

775
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 4: point she didn't. She was like the old energizer buddy

776
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 4: kept going, and as a result, she posed a threat

777
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: to the established socio religious regime. So jod of arc

778
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 4: Is arrested, goes a kangaroo court. They didn't know what

779
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 4: kangaroos were. But she goes to a kangaroo court and

780
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 4: she is executed by the same church she spent her

781
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 4: young life fighting for January ninth, fourteen thirty one. They're like,

782
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 4: this chick is so blasphemous. Those visions she gets, they're

783
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 4: not from God, they're from demonic forces. Heritic right, right,

784
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 4: heretic and blasphemy, two separate charges. She get it, you know,

785
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 4: law and order fourteen hundreds, boom boom, and then like harpsichord.

786
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 4: I guess no, I don't know if the harpsichord was around.

787
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 5: Then.

788
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 3: Do you think, though, Ben, that this was largely I mean,

789
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: she was obviously convene for them when she was out

790
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 3: there kicking ass and taking names. But at this point

791
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 3: people were starting to believe in her, and I think

792
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: she maybe posed a threat to the status quo of

793
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 3: church leadership, where it was like, we can't have this

794
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 3: person out there saying that she's speaking to God. That's

795
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 3: not good for us. We haven't also mentioned really that,

796
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 3: you know, Catholicism for the longest time was largely based

797
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 3: on the idea that priests, you needed a priest in

798
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 3: order to pray properly because the priest was speaking directly

799
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 3: to God, who were men. These priests were men. So

800
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 3: it seems to me like this was a great example

801
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 3: of an inconvenient person that just needed to be dealt with.

802
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 4: Exactly again, a demagogue, a rallying cry is politically convenient.

803
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 4: Joan is very good at winning wars. But their dream,

804
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 4: the powers that be, their dream, would be to have

805
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 4: her conveniently die, right, and once the chaos is quelled,

806
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 4: she becomes a problem for that, for the order of

807
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 4: the day, for the socio religious hierarchy. And so that's

808
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 4: why she ends up being on trial, because she will

809
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: be a threat to the ruling regime. January ninth, fourteen

810
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 4: thirty one. It's kind of like, you guys know, the

811
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 4: trial of al Capone, right, how al Capone ultimately did

812
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 4: not get convicted on as many crimes he got convicted

813
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 4: due to the IRS due to dodging taxes. So put

814
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 4: in a position where they're going against the people's champ

815
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 4: the church states at the time, they say, we're going

816
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 4: to get her on cross dressing, and she's wearing dudes clothing,

817
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 4: which is a big no no. At the time, the

818
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 4: church cannot convince her to confess her crimes because she says,

819
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 4: you mortals cannot judge my deeds and actions. God told

820
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 4: me to do this. Therefore only God can judge me.

821
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 4: So they say, all right, fine, you're convicted of cross dressing,

822
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,959
Speaker 4: and she's like, ah, you got me, and then they

823
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 4: burn her alive at this stake in fourteen thirty one.

824
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 4: She is like Captain America at this point, and she's

825
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 4: publicly executed. Twenty years later, because this person becomes a

826
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 4: full hero, religious authorities come back. They say, we'll do

827
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 4: a new trial now that she's dead, and lo and behold,

828
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 4: they clear her. She has posthumously declared a martyr, and

829
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 4: nowadays she's a saint. It is virtually impossible to estimate

830
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 4: how many other people throughout history you have had a

831
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 4: similar experience, Like right now twenty twenty three, how many

832
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 4: individuals across the planet believe they are divinely inspired or

833
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 4: think they're somehow related to God or think they're The

834
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 4: idea of being a reincarnation of Christ is always going

835
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 4: to be a particularly popular persona. The news reports these

836
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 4: folks as lunatics or cult leaders, because oddly enough, with

837
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 4: the rise of technological innovation, with the democratization of audio

838
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 4: and video technology, support for claims of divine intervention have

839
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 4: nose dived in comparison to previous eras. So the question

840
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 4: is what do all these cases prove. They prove you

841
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 4: can frame stuff however you wish, be an atheist, be

842
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 4: a true believer. You can believe that you yourself have

843
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 4: received messages from beyond the mortal veil. But no matter

844
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 4: what you believe or how we frame things in a

845
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 4: given culture, the results are in the concept of divine

846
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 4: intervention is fundamentally shaped human civilization and may well continue

847
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 4: to do so. But there are a lot of problems,

848
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 4: like why does so many of these armies appear to

849
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 4: have divine aid in one conflict and get their asses

850
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 4: whipped in the next one. Are there multiple divine conflicts

851
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 4: or are there like multiple gods that don't agree with

852
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 4: each other? Is there some deistic entity that leaves Earth

853
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 4: for its own devices and then occasionally checks in or

854
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 4: is there only chaos? A continual chain of humans desperately

855
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 4: chasing resources throughout history, obsessed with imagining purpose in a

856
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 4: universe with no true captain at the wheeled.

857
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 3: It really it makes me think of I think there

858
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: isn't there a video game where there's like different gods

859
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 3: from pantheons. It's like a fighting game AI generated thing.

860
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 4: It is definitely a game. It's like a two D

861
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 4: street fighter thing.

862
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 3: I think that's right.

863
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's great, and we have to look to science, right,

864
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 4: it's the dominant belief system of this age. There's one

865
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 4: honorable mention we have to say, and that is the

866
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 4: God helmet or the Koran helmet. This thing uses weak

867
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 4: magnetic fields to stimulate the temporal lobes of the human

868
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 4: brain and it creates, through that stimulation the sensation of

869
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 4: another worldly presence. The majority of people who wear the helmet,

870
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 4: the god helmet, it's called. The majority of people wearing

871
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 4: that feel that they are in the presence of something divine.

872
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 3: So this is news to me. Tell us a bit

873
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 3: more about the creation of this thing.

874
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 4: Ah, yeah, it's made by Stanley korn In conjunction with

875
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: a neuroscientist named Michael Persinger, and what they found was

876
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 4: even Christopher Hitchins noted polemical atheists tried it, and you

877
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 4: know that guy never apologized or was never chill. So

878
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 4: even that guy had to say.

879
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 6: I felt like an irritating thought. You know, I felt

880
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 6: irritated because he couldn't say he felt he was in

881
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 6: the presence of God. The thing is, modern society cannot

882
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 6: explain adequately the idea of divine intervention, but can now

883
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 6: recreate the sensation to that note about the Pepsi test,

884
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 6: and this it really makes us think, this spiritual conspiracy concept,

885
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 6: it makes us think about the divide between science and spirituality.

886
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 6: They're answering two differing, distinct, tremendously important human questions. Science

887
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 6: attempts to explain how happens. Spirituality attempts to explain why

888
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 6: and to fully experienced life, Human beings and human communities

889
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 6: need to have some form of both. All the other

890
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 6: animals on the planet obsess about the how. Humans uniquely

891
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 6: obsess over the why.

892
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 4: And that might be why. Sometimes, no matter who you are,

893
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 4: you feel like you get this impulse all of a

894
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 4: sudden you have an inexplicable urge that says step two

895
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 4: feet to the right, move to the leath too.

896
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 3: It's almost a luxury to be able to ask the

897
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 3: question of why you know what I mean because you

898
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 3: have a beat, because you're not just so focused on

899
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 3: survival all the time that you have that minute to

900
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 3: think larger about it, to think about what's at the

901
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 3: next level, what's at the next tier.

902
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 2: Well, we've had amazing stories told to us from listeners.

903
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of one where a mother was leaving her

904
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: daughter at home. She was in her car, she got

905
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: a couple blocks away, and it's related to hearing voices

906
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 2: and divine intervention, but she heard a voice say go

907
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: back and get your daughter, don't leave without her. So

908
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 2: she goes back, picks up her daughter, and as soon

909
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: as they take off again, her daughter, who's never had

910
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: a major seizure, has a huge major seizure in the

911
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: back of the mother's car. And if she if the

912
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 2: mother would have just left her there, she would have

913
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 2: had that seizure on her own, Like who knows what

914
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 2: would have happened. And the mom was able to take

915
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 2: her immediately to the hospital. Like that's crazy, that's like

916
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: How did that happen? Why did something tell her to

917
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 2: go back and get her daughter? Was it just her

918
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 2: and her intuition or was it divine intervention?

919
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 4: Well check out our Vibe episode.

920
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 3: I think I mentioned on the Hearing Voices episode the

921
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 3: story about the science fiction author Philip K. Dick. That's dramatized,

922
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,439
Speaker 3: it's also kind of autobiographical. In the novel Vallas, he

923
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 3: believes that he was shot in the head by a

924
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 3: laser from space that he refers to as a god

925
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 3: like presence that gave him information about a malady that

926
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 3: his son had that would have killed him if he

927
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 3: hadn't acted on it.

928
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 4: Wow, And the more skeptical say, yeah, Phila is crazy.

929
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 4: But there's there's there's this point. Also, I'm really glad

930
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 4: you brought this up that we need to thank the

931
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 4: multiple folks who have written to us with your own experiences,

932
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 4: fellow listeners of inexplicable intervention, right, whether divine or not.

933
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 4: Something that happened, a thought that arrived, a compulsion that

934
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 4: arrived that resulted in a better outcome if you had

935
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 4: not listened to that message from somewhere, even if it's

936
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 4: from yourself. Humans act on these impulses surprisingly often, and

937
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 4: if nothing appears to happen, humans don't call it a

938
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 4: revelation until that is, you look back and realize that

939
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: moment was pivotal, it may have changed the course of events.

940
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 4: And then later, maybe minutes later, maybe years later, maybe

941
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 4: decades later, you look back, because you always do. You

942
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 4: look back, and from far enough away, that snap decision

943
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 4: may look a lot like the hand of God. And

944
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 4: that's where we ended again. You know we, as we

945
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: said it the top, We're not here to tell anybody

946
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 4: what to believe. Your beliefs are your own, but we

947
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 4: do find it fascinating that this has been such a

948
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 4: continual thread throughout human history, and that so many huge

949
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 4: events have hinge upon listening to that little voice, wherever

950
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 4: you feel it may come from. I think that's it

951
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 4: for us, right, guys, I know we've gone a little long.

952
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 4: Maybe we pass the torch here. You don't have to

953
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 4: be divinely inspired to write to us. You can just

954
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 4: have some ideas. Heck, you might just have a limerick

955
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 4: or a pun. We love all of those. We try

956
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 4: to be easy to find online.

957
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 3: Conspiracy stuff on x nay, Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. Conspiracy

958
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 3: stuff show on Instagram and TikTok.

959
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: Yes, there are other ways to contact us. Sorry, I

960
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: just want to add one thing here before we go

961
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 2: to the voicemail. I would be interested in hearing more

962
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 2: about how God appears, right, like the mechanisms through which

963
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 2: someone is given that message, because we talked about hearing

964
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 2: a voice. Other times it's Bush.

965
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a physical thing.

966
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 3: Or it's a Joseph Smith, you know, and the angel

967
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 3: more what's the name that's great moroney that appeared to

968
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 3: Joseph Smith apparently presented him with gold with tablets that

969
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 3: caused him to start the Mormon faith.

970
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, or a giant storm on a mountain. I don't

971
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,959
Speaker 2: know there there, it's there's interesting stuff there. So maybe

972
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 2: write to us and or tell us, you know other

973
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: mechanisms that we're not thinking about. Our number is one

974
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: eight three three st d w y t K. It's

975
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: a voicemail system. You got three minutes. Give yourself a name,

976
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 2: and please let us know if we can use your

977
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: name and message on the air. If you don't want

978
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 2: to do that, why not send us an email.

979
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 4: We are the people who read every email you send.

980
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 4: We're conspiracy at iHeartRadio.

981
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 5: Dot com Stuff they don't want you to know.

982
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 2: Is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

983
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

984
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.