WEBVTT - Rickie Lee Jones 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.356 Pushkin. Ricky Lee Jones hit it big with her debut 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.916 album in seventy nine. The following year, she won the 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:28.676 Grammy Award for Best New Artist, and over the course 0:00:28.756 --> 0:00:32.596 of the next four decades, released numerous albums that pulled 0:00:32.636 --> 0:00:37.596 inspiration from jazz, rock, electronic music, and even musical theater. 0:00:38.396 --> 0:00:42.076 In late April, Ricky released her latest album, Pieces of Treasure, 0:00:42.676 --> 0:00:45.236 where she sings songs in the American songbook with a 0:00:45.476 --> 0:00:50.156 jazz slant producer and legendary an arman. Russ Titelman, who 0:00:50.156 --> 0:00:53.676 produced Ricky's first two albums, reunited with her on her 0:00:53.756 --> 0:00:57.036 latest and helped inspire Ricky to find a comfort in 0:00:57.076 --> 0:01:01.796 her lower vocal register. The result is an oftentimes sultry 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:07.196 meditation on aging and survival. On today's episode, Bruce HEADLM 0:01:07.236 --> 0:01:10.156 talks to Ricky Ley Jones about her decades long fight 0:01:10.316 --> 0:01:13.796 to sing jazz, even though she's often viewed as an outsider. 0:01:14.716 --> 0:01:16.956 She also tells stories about leaving home as a young 0:01:16.996 --> 0:01:20.476 teenager and the abuse she endured while trying to survive 0:01:20.636 --> 0:01:24.236 on her own. She played songs from her career, including 0:01:24.276 --> 0:01:27.156 one she wrote after seeing John Lennon appear to her 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:31.036 in a dream, and just a note before we get started. 0:01:31.276 --> 0:01:35.596 This episode contains descriptions of sexual abuse and might not 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:42.676 be appropriate for all listeners. This is broken record liner 0:01:42.756 --> 0:01:46.556 notes for the digital age. I'm justin Ritchman. Here's Bruce 0:01:46.636 --> 0:01:48.756 Hedlam with Ricky Lee Jones. 0:01:49.516 --> 0:01:52.636 I've always thought of you as someone who and I 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:55.676 thought of this particularly on the new record. You're someone 0:01:55.716 --> 0:01:59.156 who is acting in the song in a strength. Did 0:01:59.196 --> 0:02:00.676 you always think of yourself as that one? 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:03.956 I've just found the words to say that. But I've 0:02:03.956 --> 0:02:08.836 always put the song on and been inside of it, 0:02:09.476 --> 0:02:12.156 and I know everything about everybody in it. So if 0:02:12.196 --> 0:02:15.716 I sing something cool, I know where she's sitting, what 0:02:15.796 --> 0:02:18.076 she's wearing, where she bought it, everybody at the bar. 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:22.356 I see it all. And I think that's what an 0:02:22.396 --> 0:02:25.836 actor does. They try to create everything about their character. 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:31.156 But it happens to me instantaneously. I have a rich imagination, 0:02:31.276 --> 0:02:36.076 I guess, and when I sing, the tree instantly grows. 0:02:36.556 --> 0:02:41.876 And I started thinking this year, I'm acting songs, and 0:02:41.916 --> 0:02:47.076 there's a little difference between singing a song and acting. 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:50.956 Being a song actor, it suggests i'mhow that I'm not 0:02:50.996 --> 0:02:54.036 a real singer, which of course I am. A serious singer, 0:02:54.876 --> 0:02:58.596 but I think I'm acting, I'm being the song. 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:02.596 It's closer to singers from previous generations. We're like that, 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.956 like Peggy Lee or Julie London. Yes, people like that 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:10.596 seem to kind of inhabit songs become the characters and songs. 0:03:11.036 --> 0:03:14.796 They were singers, not primarily songwriters, although Peggy Lee did 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:18.396 write some songs. But you you write them, so people think, oh, 0:03:18.556 --> 0:03:22.876 they must be confessions. They're yeah, pouring your soul out. Yeah, 0:03:22.956 --> 0:03:24.556 and you don't really pour your soul out. 0:03:25.636 --> 0:03:29.836 I like to write stories, and in this story might 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:35.756 be some poignant, unresolved tear drop or something. That's the 0:03:35.796 --> 0:03:39.956 best way to show it in this way, as any 0:03:39.956 --> 0:03:44.436 writer does, you know, put their own emotion because that's 0:03:44.436 --> 0:03:47.196 the only palette we have right into what they write. 0:03:48.116 --> 0:03:51.556 And that thing again of the singer songwriter versus the 0:03:51.596 --> 0:03:56.836 singer how people see them, because after Bob Dylan and 0:03:57.356 --> 0:04:02.796 Joni Mitchell, it became crucial to be a songwriter. If 0:04:02.796 --> 0:04:05.596 you weren't a songwriter, then you're not really authentic. If 0:04:05.676 --> 0:04:08.076 you didn't write that song, then why even singing it? 0:04:08.556 --> 0:04:12.396 Kind of aut itude, which I of course disagree with. 0:04:12.996 --> 0:04:19.556 To me, the interpreter, the singer, the bard is who matters. Yes, yes, 0:04:19.636 --> 0:04:21.876 I'm glad you wrote the song. But if there's no 0:04:21.916 --> 0:04:26.076 one to sing it, what does it matter? So Peggy 0:04:26.156 --> 0:04:30.916 Lee or me or anybody who loves a song and 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:33.356 loves to sing and loves hear other people, you know, 0:04:33.556 --> 0:04:38.796 whether it's a choir or whatever, loves singing. That's what 0:04:38.876 --> 0:04:42.356 I like most. When I had the ear of the 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:46.516 press the way I did in the early eighties, I 0:04:46.836 --> 0:04:52.196 talk about Linda Ronstaff, for instance, who was not as 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:55.076 in style now for a minute, because she wasn't punk 0:04:55.156 --> 0:04:57.796 rock and she didn't write songs. But I was like, bet, 0:04:57.836 --> 0:05:02.996 she's a great singer. And whatever comes into fashion, and 0:05:03.036 --> 0:05:06.356 I'm glad new things come into fashion. But you can't 0:05:06.396 --> 0:05:11.116 discard the meaning of a singer, I think. 0:05:11.116 --> 0:05:15.996 Because when you came out, you don't sound like Joni Mitchell, 0:05:16.476 --> 0:05:18.636 but you looked a bit like Jomie Mitchell, so much 0:05:18.716 --> 0:05:22.876 like her, so everybody's, oh, she's influenced by Joni Mitchell. 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:26.036 And then I'm reading your book and it's like Jimmy Hendrix. 0:05:26.796 --> 0:05:30.676 It's West Side Story, which is a big thing for you. Yeah, 0:05:30.716 --> 0:05:32.916 and there's a very I won't give it away. There's 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:38.116 a very lovely scene with that guy. I'll say his name, 0:05:38.196 --> 0:05:39.476 Tom Waite's the only time I'm going. 0:05:39.476 --> 0:05:40.076 To say it. 0:05:40.556 --> 0:05:43.556 Where you're outside of a bar and someone says a 0:05:43.596 --> 0:05:47.996 line and someone else yeah, and then you all sing it. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:50.156 He gets the line wrong, I think too. But it's 0:05:50.156 --> 0:05:51.796 this beautiful scene. 0:05:51.476 --> 0:05:54.356 Because and it's real, It really happened. 0:05:54.036 --> 0:05:57.516 And people grew up, you know, back then, like people 0:05:57.556 --> 0:05:59.396 would have records. They might have the Beatles, but then 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:03.516 their parents would have South Pacific or Camelot or something, 0:06:03.556 --> 0:06:06.116 a sound of everybody had sound of music. Back then. 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:10.956 You said you tended towards Laura Nero. What did you 0:06:10.996 --> 0:06:13.876 get from her? What was it that drew you? 0:06:14.436 --> 0:06:14.636 Well? 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.676 I got that thing of these strange and I still 0:06:17.716 --> 0:06:22.156 haven't learned her songs. But these kinds of chords, right, 0:06:26.156 --> 0:06:36.996 and hers are much darker, but and they probably show 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:41.396 up passing in Leonard Bernstein. So that's what she had. 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:46.036 She had inversions that were magical to me, and I 0:06:46.076 --> 0:06:49.396 wanted to know them. She also happened to see her 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:52.276 on public television at the same time I heard of 0:06:52.996 --> 0:06:58.036 so to see her is something else entirely. She looked 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:03.876 like a terribly mentally ill person who could hardly sit 0:07:04.276 --> 0:07:07.236 there to perform this song. And as a teenager, I 0:07:07.236 --> 0:07:11.756 really identified with that part. Felt pretty barely together myself. 0:07:11.836 --> 0:07:16.956 So I liked that there was somebody there who dared 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:20.716 to show herself as she was. 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:25.716 And she was also very theatrical, Yes that's a better word. 0:07:25.876 --> 0:07:30.236 She was creating scenes with her people know, wedding bell Blues, 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:33.316 that's one of her big songs, But it creates a 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:34.636 big it does. 0:07:34.836 --> 0:07:39.356 It's like a show number, something like the one about Tomcat. 0:07:39.476 --> 0:07:45.036 Goodbye is like its own piece of theater from top 0:07:45.116 --> 0:07:47.876 to bottom. So it's a little bit of Gershwin's, a 0:07:47.916 --> 0:07:51.636 little bit of organbezz and then a lot of motown soul. 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:55.636 And she's made her own kind of music. I'm not 0:07:55.676 --> 0:08:00.316 gonna say brand, but she's made her own and you know, 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:03.756 I think what I love is the sound of her voice. 0:08:03.796 --> 0:08:07.996 But that that she did that probably was a map 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:13.316 for me that I could also make my own room 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:16.076 of my own imaginary people. 0:08:17.236 --> 0:08:20.116 What do you think are your songs that do that 0:08:20.196 --> 0:08:23.436 the best? What rooms do you go? I got that one? 0:08:23.516 --> 0:08:34.436 Yeah, the things from Pirates, I would say, And. 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:39.676 He's got walk crazy act turns him into a car. 0:08:40.156 --> 0:08:47.156 Two and pretty girls go by. Nothing here to do anymore, 0:08:47.836 --> 0:08:50.676 so he sits on the stoop all day. 0:08:51.436 --> 0:08:57.116 I does something is waiting for Countfinger. Louis picks up 0:08:57.236 --> 0:08:58.316 Eddy in the alley. 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:01.676 He likes to come here with them buzz from that town. 0:09:02.156 --> 0:09:07.236 Everybody there looks like Frankie Valley and they're fluently blonde 0:09:08.316 --> 0:09:12.276 from her leg to a cigarette. And Louis told Eddie 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:17.156 fix him up, but he ain't come back in now 0:09:17.636 --> 0:09:23.036 this rhyme Frankie Valley. I was originally trying to rhyme 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:28.356 Eddie Briggotti because Eddie Briggotty is from the Young Rascals, 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:32.156 and I loved the Young Rascals and especially you know 0:09:32.276 --> 0:09:35.156 his How can I be sure there's not? And I 0:09:35.316 --> 0:09:39.276 like the idea that nobody's written about Eddie Briggotty, but 0:09:39.356 --> 0:09:42.676 I couldn't find anything to rhyme with Gotti. More people 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:45.596 would know who Frankie Valley was. It's a very one 0:09:45.676 --> 0:09:47.796 of my funny lines. I have a few funny lines, 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:49.996 but I always feel like it goes right by people. 0:09:50.036 --> 0:09:53.876 They're they're enchanted by the service. Start, what are you 0:09:53.916 --> 0:09:56.276 talking about? Now? Where everybody looks like Frankie Valley. 0:09:56.876 --> 0:09:57.636 And then. 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:06.196 More trouble than it's worth? 0:10:09.236 --> 0:10:21.796 What trouble in his word? Oh wold to tell him where. 0:10:21.476 --> 0:10:32.836 You Oh wowld So that's one I think, tell him. 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:33.916 Where you are? 0:10:36.556 --> 0:10:40.476 And then that one goes there, and there's another verse 0:10:41.316 --> 0:10:42.756 about the girl. 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:43.236 Right. 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:48.596 So those are the two boys Eddie and and oh 0:10:48.676 --> 0:10:54.356 and so those characters were inspired by my friend Salbernardi's 0:10:55.476 --> 0:11:02.236 childhood friends in Lodi, New Jersey. He had this one guy, 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:05.836 so he had count fingered Louis. But the other one 0:11:05.876 --> 0:11:09.716 was the guy was one crazy all right that when 0:11:09.756 --> 0:11:15.396 he got nervous, it started spitting all around. So I 0:11:15.476 --> 0:11:18.876 brought his characters in. And then so zero quits cool. 0:11:19.956 --> 0:11:24.996 She lost her job again and her boyfriend beat her 0:11:25.116 --> 0:11:30.196 up and he won't let her in. She's walking by 0:11:30.356 --> 0:11:32.796 this joint in her black and blue dress. 0:11:33.156 --> 0:11:37.116 She looks a little welbones out of you, says, don't 0:11:37.196 --> 0:11:38.716 tell me, Leving guess. 0:11:41.396 --> 0:11:48.356 It's more trouble in his word, she's moore trouble in 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:49.356 his word. 0:11:50.036 --> 0:11:59.596 Oh why? And then. 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:07.356 Fast and west this way. 0:12:10.836 --> 0:12:15.436 When you've got all these ideas, you'd never to. 0:12:17.436 --> 0:12:20.796 Any one. 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:32.316 There are these magnet's pulling j left, living every story. 0:12:35.396 --> 0:12:36.716 Only once. 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:40.436 So in that part, remember when you're in a movie 0:12:40.476 --> 0:12:44.036 and the newspapers go by and they're spinning by it. 0:12:44.116 --> 0:12:45.156 This is the exciting time. 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:45.916 That's what that was. 0:12:51.036 --> 0:12:51.156 Up. 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:55.596 Hey, yeah, we'll liveving it. 0:12:55.716 --> 0:13:02.476 Up, welling up, we'll. 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:06.636 It up, well. 0:13:08.676 --> 0:13:17.556 Up, ye will livevyvinge up. 0:13:19.276 --> 0:13:28.476 Welving it up? Yeah, well, liveving it up? Yeah, well, 0:13:28.636 --> 0:13:31.196 living up. 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:49.116 Up. And then I think it was probably really inspired 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:54.276 by my friendship with Lunetti found nor reason. 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:58.636 Then in there carried her over the bridges. 0:13:58.156 --> 0:14:05.356 And fluttering pages. They didn't care, this terminal where dreams 0:14:05.476 --> 0:14:10.636 led so many tickets through and strange looking faces, and 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:11.916 see somebody there. 0:14:12.116 --> 0:14:12.876 They knew. 0:14:14.116 --> 0:14:17.396 You could meet me tomorrow when all of the lights 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:24.276 aide blooming. Feel a little lonely, a little sad, a 0:14:24.316 --> 0:14:29.716 little mean, But remember this place, Sada's Hotel. 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:32.876 You could do anything you want. 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:36.116 You could never tell. 0:14:38.236 --> 0:14:46.076 It's not trouble in its word, but trouble than its word. 0:14:54.036 --> 0:15:10.516 Whoa wow, I won't you tell me where you are? 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:20.196 That? Yeah, so I'd say more than any song I've written. 0:15:22.556 --> 0:15:26.756 That song answers hers right, or a song about her 0:15:26.916 --> 0:15:30.916 characters living in the darker part of the city. This 0:15:31.596 --> 0:15:36.476 one sets them free to go somewhere else. Always I 0:15:36.476 --> 0:15:38.636 don't always, but for a long time I've felt it's 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:42.596 a conversation we have when we're lucky enough to be 0:15:42.916 --> 0:15:46.396 writers of songs that people here and sing. We're all 0:15:46.836 --> 0:15:50.316 talking to one another and responding to one another. It's 0:15:50.356 --> 0:15:53.316 just a lie to pretend that you live in a 0:15:53.396 --> 0:15:57.276 vacuum and everything comes out of your own head. And 0:15:57.356 --> 0:16:00.636 if you're not being honest about it, then your thief 0:16:00.956 --> 0:16:05.516 and and you're stealing stuff. So we must learn from 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:08.516 one another, and it has to be okay to say 0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:12.316 learning from somebody else. And then I made up my 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:14.596 own thing. Yeah, I think so. 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:17.156 You know, one of the things about that song you 0:16:17.276 --> 0:16:20.716 just played, you're constantly changing tempos. You know, you've stopped 0:16:20.716 --> 0:16:22.676 the whole band in the middle, and then it starts 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:24.676 back up again. Where does that come from? Is that 0:16:24.716 --> 0:16:25.876 from musicals as well? 0:16:26.916 --> 0:16:31.516 Yeah? Maybe so. I've always liked things that changed directions 0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:34.236 and changed and they did it in the pop stuff 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:38.116 for a while, right, Crosby stills a nish. It was exciting, 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:41.236 but probably musical theater does it first? 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:44.076 Can you tell me about Away from the sky that. 0:16:44.156 --> 0:16:49.316 Was inspired by the death of John Lennon. I dream 0:16:49.396 --> 0:16:53.516 I had about John Lennon. I feel pretty strong today, 0:16:53.556 --> 0:16:55.916 so I can probably talk about it. But sometimes if 0:16:55.956 --> 0:17:00.836 I just talk about sad stuff, it's overwhelming. But not 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:05.916 that long after he died, I dreamed of him. I've 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:11.716 never been there, but on a British or riding his 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:15.636 bike with a stocking cap. And then like the three beards, 0:17:15.676 --> 0:17:18.516 in the back of him was Yokoa and in back 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:21.356 of her was shown each one is in the little 0:17:21.356 --> 0:17:24.516 bike and there was a pier. And as he turned 0:17:24.516 --> 0:17:26.036 to go on to the pier, he looked at me. 0:17:27.156 --> 0:17:32.236 Gentleman is looking at me, and he sang this, Let's see. 0:17:33.436 --> 0:17:38.316 There was a crooked man who lived on a crooked shore. 0:17:39.196 --> 0:17:44.316 But now he'll never have to go away anymore. 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:54.356 Away from the sky. Ahway from the sky. 0:17:56.116 --> 0:18:00.796 And turned onto the pier and they followed him. Really 0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:05.636 when I woke up, because sometimes those things dissolve instantly, 0:18:06.476 --> 0:18:09.556 I don't know why, but that part never made it 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:14.116 into the recording, I saved the real party saying for 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:16.716 myself and I made up a song based on a 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:21.156 Dylan Thomas short story called After the Fair. You know 0:18:21.316 --> 0:18:24.876 the thing on the record is my demo. So I'm 0:18:24.956 --> 0:18:29.956 just going boom boomed, as minimal as it can be. 0:18:29.996 --> 0:18:33.956 And then, and because I was probably half writing it 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:41.676 as I recorded. For all that it cost him, he 0:18:41.796 --> 0:18:49.436 never did complain. The chicken headed man. They're feathering the rain, 0:18:55.956 --> 0:18:58.876 but the last bassist tie. 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:01.676 Everybody's gone. 0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:07.356 The horses are painted with the waiting. 0:19:07.076 --> 0:19:18.556 Of the lawn. Go from the rodeo. 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:29.476 God, from the tundraug girl, it's after the fair. 0:19:30.996 --> 0:19:38.756 That's when I see you. 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:48.556 There she sleeps in the canvas. The fat man hollers, 0:19:48.876 --> 0:19:56.156 O tender is the night I feel bleeding out of you. 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:08.276 So come into my trailer. We can toast a little bread. 0:20:09.276 --> 0:20:09.596 Now. 0:20:09.636 --> 0:20:15.516 Look, you left a hole oil laid on my bed. 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:23.956 He said. But you keep what you can keep. And 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:33.596 when you dive into the deep this year, after Froz 0:20:33.876 --> 0:20:44.156 and you, that's where saved youse. 0:20:53.036 --> 0:21:08.836 Away from the sky, Oh. 0:21:05.356 --> 0:21:30.236 Away from the sky, Oh, away from the sky, Away 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:42.156 from the sky. 0:21:42.716 --> 0:21:44.196 But everybody's gone. 0:21:44.276 --> 0:21:44.596 Now. 0:21:46.036 --> 0:21:52.916 It's after the fair. The horses are waiting in the middle. 0:21:52.636 --> 0:22:01.116 Of the So you turn the. 0:22:01.116 --> 0:22:07.276 Care yourself on. When the lights closed down, you can 0:22:07.396 --> 0:22:13.116 watch the ponies round through the middle of town. 0:22:16.236 --> 0:22:19.076 That you go, little girl, there you. 0:22:19.236 --> 0:22:25.076 Go, gone from the tongue run. 0:22:25.396 --> 0:22:34.236 Now it's after the fences. 0:22:34.476 --> 0:22:48.596 When over the fences again and the vacuum and the hole. 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:53.636 And the plans up in. 0:22:53.636 --> 0:22:57.556 The air, that's where I. 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:03.476 Can hear your best. 0:23:09.836 --> 0:23:34.116 But away from the sky, Away from the sky, Oh, 0:23:39.716 --> 0:23:55.236 from the sky. 0:23:49.996 --> 0:23:53.196 Away from the skyes. 0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:20.356 That was Ricky Lee Jones performing her song away from 0:24:20.356 --> 0:24:22.596 the Sky. We have to take a quick break and 0:24:22.636 --> 0:24:25.316 we'll be back with more from Bruce Headlam and Ricky 0:24:25.396 --> 0:24:33.316 Lee Jones. We're back with more from Ricky Lee Jones. 0:24:34.276 --> 0:24:40.316 It's interesting because I reread your your autobiography and now 0:24:40.436 --> 0:24:41.836 you moved so much when you. 0:24:41.756 --> 0:24:42.196 Were a kid. 0:24:42.916 --> 0:24:47.196 Yes, it seemed that you were always having to reintroduce 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:48.796 your or introduce yourself. 0:24:48.876 --> 0:24:49.396 That's right. 0:24:49.596 --> 0:24:51.836 Although you always did it, it seemed to fill you 0:24:51.876 --> 0:24:53.236 with terror, the idea that he. 0:24:53.476 --> 0:24:59.636 Yes, and that terror of people basic mistrust and expectation 0:24:59.876 --> 0:25:03.276 that at some point don't do their worst. Stayed with me. 0:25:04.436 --> 0:25:08.996 The playground seems to be ever with us, I could 0:25:09.236 --> 0:25:11.796 say with me, But it does seem like that that 0:25:11.916 --> 0:25:15.316 scenario is playing out over and over again of a 0:25:15.436 --> 0:25:20.956 bully kids who want to follow the bully, just so 0:25:20.996 --> 0:25:24.596 they don't get picked on. A couple kids who are 0:25:25.076 --> 0:25:28.556 one's different or one's as poor, or it's always the 0:25:28.636 --> 0:25:32.756 same dynamic of who's on top and who's underneath. And 0:25:33.396 --> 0:25:36.156 I think the fact that I was a little different, 0:25:36.796 --> 0:25:38.916 though I didn't think so, but I think I must 0:25:38.996 --> 0:25:44.276 have been gave me someone to be so that I 0:25:44.396 --> 0:25:49.316 wasn't anonymous, because I guess more than I hated being 0:25:49.356 --> 0:25:54.156 picked on, I hated being invisible. So I accepted that, 0:25:55.596 --> 0:25:57.876 but I really never understood why I'd look in the 0:25:57.916 --> 0:26:01.556 mirror and go, aren't I pretty? Why don't they like me? 0:26:02.236 --> 0:26:05.516 And it's still a mystery to me, really. 0:26:05.796 --> 0:26:10.196 Yes, even later in your book, you're very critical of 0:26:11.436 --> 0:26:16.116 what was sort of late stage hippies. So the people 0:26:16.196 --> 0:26:19.596 you hung around with, it seemed that when you were traveling, 0:26:19.756 --> 0:26:22.996 and you started traveling, I think at fourteen and just 0:26:23.076 --> 0:26:26.276 checking hiking, and you know, you lived in a cave 0:26:26.396 --> 0:26:29.556 for a while. There were other people in the cave too, 0:26:29.636 --> 0:26:32.596 but I was still a cave, you know. It seemed that, 0:26:33.236 --> 0:26:35.436 you know, particularly a lot of the menu met were 0:26:35.556 --> 0:26:41.556 very the usury. They're very predatory, and they were the hippies. 0:26:41.596 --> 0:26:45.636 They were they talked a good game, but a lot 0:26:45.636 --> 0:26:46.716 of them were very abusive. 0:26:47.796 --> 0:26:52.796 Well, I was really young, and I believed what I read, 0:26:53.316 --> 0:26:57.636 my impressions of what it would be like to be 0:26:57.756 --> 0:27:01.836 a grown up in that world, to be an active 0:27:01.916 --> 0:27:06.476 member of their idea of what life should be like. 0:27:06.596 --> 0:27:13.396 But those people were just greasers a little bit older, right, 0:27:14.476 --> 0:27:17.356 They were just the tough kids at school in nineteen 0:27:17.436 --> 0:27:20.876 sixty two, or whoever they were. I saw them as 0:27:20.956 --> 0:27:26.316 magically appearing with long hair like Christ. And so, you know, 0:27:27.196 --> 0:27:31.236 I was definitely needed a place to stay and needed 0:27:31.236 --> 0:27:34.996 something to eat, and the cost of that was my body, 0:27:35.596 --> 0:27:40.596 and you know, that was very hard. Sometimes I just 0:27:40.916 --> 0:27:44.996 wanted to be able to rest and not have to 0:27:45.076 --> 0:27:50.436 struggle with some guide. Would he relent and not try 0:27:50.476 --> 0:27:53.556 to put his dick in me? Or would that be 0:27:53.596 --> 0:27:58.836 the cost of having a night of food. I have 0:27:58.956 --> 0:28:03.276 never actually said that so starkly and truly, because it 0:28:03.356 --> 0:28:06.556 was so hard and a little kid, you know, and 0:28:06.596 --> 0:28:11.276 then getting up the next day if you lucky, if 0:28:11.276 --> 0:28:14.436 it's the next day and they don't want you there anymore. 0:28:14.476 --> 0:28:17.916 And I think every single guy I met, I thought, 0:28:18.196 --> 0:28:22.236 well he married me? Is he the one who loved me, 0:28:23.196 --> 0:28:28.516 every one of them, and so that was lots of disappointments. 0:28:28.556 --> 0:28:31.956 But I've, you know, have many years to think about it, 0:28:31.996 --> 0:28:36.196 and I was really just a very little kid in 0:28:36.236 --> 0:28:41.436 a woman's body, in a costume that looked like old 0:28:41.556 --> 0:28:45.156 enough for them. I think some of them would have 0:28:45.396 --> 0:28:48.516 withdrawn if they knew my two age, but most of 0:28:48.556 --> 0:28:51.516 them know. I think it was kind of cool, right 0:28:52.036 --> 0:28:55.316 to be attracted to a young teenager. They still sell 0:28:55.356 --> 0:28:59.916 that image a lot of school girl like hit Me 0:29:00.076 --> 0:29:01.316 Baby One More. 0:29:01.196 --> 0:29:02.436 Time Britney spears. 0:29:02.676 --> 0:29:06.876 Yeah, she sold that image as well. So as long 0:29:06.916 --> 0:29:10.636 as we let that image be sold and you know 0:29:10.756 --> 0:29:14.916 that stuff is going on in reality, I. 0:29:14.836 --> 0:29:17.916 Do want to talk about a nice guy. Yes, that's 0:29:18.476 --> 0:29:22.756 your producer on this project, Russ Titelman, who was one 0:29:22.756 --> 0:29:26.076 of your first producers. Yeah, my first, your first. He 0:29:26.156 --> 0:29:26.596 was your first. 0:29:26.916 --> 0:29:31.156 I had two producers, Lenny Warrenker and Russ Titleman, and 0:29:31.356 --> 0:29:35.396 I'd seen Lenny. I didn't know from producers, but I 0:29:35.436 --> 0:29:38.556 saw Lenny's name on the back of a Randy Newman record. 0:29:38.756 --> 0:29:42.596 It's about two years maybe before I got signed. 0:29:43.356 --> 0:29:46.276 Most people would have wanted to meet Randy Newman. No, 0:29:46.636 --> 0:29:48.516 you went into the small type. 0:29:48.556 --> 0:29:52.076 That's right. I've always known that's the way in. You 0:29:52.116 --> 0:29:55.876 can't go for the big, big thing because everybody wants 0:29:55.916 --> 0:29:58.436 to meet Randy. But if you find I was an 0:29:58.956 --> 0:30:04.876 infamous getter in Backstage Girl, and I'd watched the secret 0:30:04.916 --> 0:30:08.276 way that nobody was going and just slip in that way. 0:30:08.716 --> 0:30:12.196 So that was the same philosophy of how to get in. 0:30:12.996 --> 0:30:18.396 So anyway his name, and so we sent tapes around 0:30:18.916 --> 0:30:22.836 to three or four people. He got one of them 0:30:23.236 --> 0:30:27.196 and and I was exactly right. He was the way, 0:30:27.796 --> 0:30:32.036 and I pushed, you know, when the record companies went 0:30:32.116 --> 0:30:35.796 to sign me, this little I think it was called 0:30:35.836 --> 0:30:39.276 Portrait or something. This little company made the best offer, 0:30:39.956 --> 0:30:43.356 and we went back to Warner Brothers, my lawyer, a 0:30:43.636 --> 0:30:47.836 big shot working for free. We talked him and I'm 0:30:47.876 --> 0:30:50.316 going to be a big shot and said, you know, 0:30:50.796 --> 0:30:53.036 she wants to go with Lindy. So if you'll meet 0:30:53.076 --> 0:30:55.036 the offer. I don't know if that's okay to tell that, 0:30:55.396 --> 0:30:58.196 but if you'll meet the offer, it we'll come with you. 0:30:58.476 --> 0:31:02.156 And that happened exactly as it was meant to. So 0:31:02.956 --> 0:31:06.596 Lenny sent the tape to Russ because they were partners 0:31:06.636 --> 0:31:09.996 in production. Russ was working with George Harris in England, 0:31:11.076 --> 0:31:14.356 and he tells this story a lot now now that 0:31:14.396 --> 0:31:19.196 we're reunited. So when he heard Company, he called Lenny 0:31:19.196 --> 0:31:23.156 and said, this girl is a singer. She's like roberta Flock, 0:31:23.916 --> 0:31:28.956 which is a pretty big compliment. And Lenny said, I 0:31:29.196 --> 0:31:31.796 really noticed I was listening to the songs, so they 0:31:31.796 --> 0:31:37.436 were perfect. Him addressing the songs, we got to put 0:31:37.476 --> 0:31:41.316 an accordion on the bridge because the Italians are there, 0:31:41.556 --> 0:31:44.836 and him addressing the singer, you got to go sing 0:31:44.876 --> 0:31:46.756 that line again. So it was good. 0:31:47.676 --> 0:31:52.796 It's hard to imagine now just what a incredible period 0:31:52.876 --> 0:31:55.316 that was for you. You'd only been writing songs for 0:31:55.596 --> 0:31:59.996 a couple of years. Yes, you were living in La I. 0:31:59.956 --> 0:32:05.116 Was homeless in the months before I was signed. I 0:32:05.236 --> 0:32:07.276