WEBVTT - it's not sci-fi. mind-reading tech is here 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:14.960 I actually got to play with Meta's neural band. So 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.239 this application was like pac Man moving around the screen, 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.040 and you had to subtly move your thumb or your 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.880 forefinger so that it was picking up the brain activity 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.200 at your wrist, and then pac Man would move up 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:28.400 or down or left to right. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.520 Nita Farahani is a professor of law and philosophy at 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.720 Duke University, and she's written a book called The Battle 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:35.440 for Your Brain. 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.280 It was pretty cool and within like a couple of minutes, 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:45.280 it was calibrated to my signals just barely moving my 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:46.880 fingers or my wrist. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.800 So you're getting very close to being able to play 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.160 pac Man with your brain. You might know about Elon 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.240 Musk's company, Neuralink. You might also know that you can't 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.840 just go out and buy a Neuralink device yet. But 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.920 which you might not is that other companies already have 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.639 stuff on the shelves and that more is coming. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.120 Like I'm sitting here at my desk, I've got a 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.319 little cabinet next to me and it is filled with 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.360 different ones of these devices. I have headphones that have 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.880 like EEG sensors around them. I've got earbuds not from Apple, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.800 that have EEG sensors in them. I've got forehead bands. 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.520 I have like dozens sitting in this little cabinet next 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.000 to me, and there are tons on the market already. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:31.840 Metow was like the first i'd say, major tech company 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.600 launching everyday neurotechnology into the marketplace right where you can 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.880 go to best Buy and you can buy a neural band. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.640 This stuff is here now and you don't need to 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.240 drill a hole in your head to use it. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.680 People hear these stories from Neurallink and others and they're like, Okay, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.280 that doesn't apply to me, because that's some sci fi 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.480 future where like somebody who is in a wheelchair who's 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.680 unable to move or to speak, has something drilled into 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.480 their brain. Like that's not me, But go to best Buy. 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.440 That's you right, like me at this conference, you know, 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.200 saying to Meta like, yeah, go ahead and take my 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.560 brain activity while I interact with your pac Man on 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.480 your device and then playing pac Man with my neural signals, 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.519 not with a joystick or my finger anything else. 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.279 As a professor, Needle works on both law and philosophy, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.440 which makes sense because on the one hand, figuring out 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.359 how the mind works that's a philosophical question. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.120 If you're a philosopher mind and you're trying to understand 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.839 how the mind works, and then there's technology that could 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.200 start to really decode it, Like how could you ignore 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.639 that as a philosopher and just continue to ask thought 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.600 problems and thought questions when there's real technology that could 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.679 help you answer some of those questions. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.400 And then there's the law, or we might say the 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.560 lack of laws. Neurotechnology is blasting off right now, and 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.680 Nita says that we need to figure out what's legal 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:50.840 and what's not before it's too late. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.839 Every company, the last piece of you that they don't 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.680 have access to is your brain. There is no trace 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.280 of privacy left except for this, which is what you're 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.400 thinking and what you're feeling inside of your own mind. 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:18.600 Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcast. This is kill switch this. 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:49.280 I'm DEXTERH Thomas, i'morright, I'm sorry, goodbye. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.040 The field of neurotechnology itself has been around longer than 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.640 most people realize. Even the term brain computer interface, which 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.600 we ill used today, goes back to the nineteen seventies. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.360 But since then this stuff was mostly confined to research labs. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.480 There have been products here and there, but it's never 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.680 really been practical enough for a mainstream audience to catch on. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.080 But the people who know the technology have always figured 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.919 out that one day it would catch on. Anita remembers 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.560 the day that she was convinced Back in twenty eighteen. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.040 I was at a conference at Bourton and this guy 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.640 stands up to give his presentation and he says, like, 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.919 why are we humans such clumsy output devices? Okay, that 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:33.520 got my attention. 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:35.440 We're really output device. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.000 Yes, you're a very clumsy output device. All right, dexter. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.080 No, I've been insulted a lot of ways. That's a 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:41.640 new one. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.040 So he says, we're really good at taking in information, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.000 but we're going backwards in time instead of fours And 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.279 he's like, think about it. We're typing with two thumbs 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.560 now instead of typing with like our full hand. So 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.000 our rate of getting information out is going down, not up. 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.440 What if we could operate octopus like tentacles with our 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.560 brains instead. What he was talking about was he had 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:07.279 this very clunky early version of this armband that he 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.400 was showcasing, and the company at the time was called 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.200 Control Labs, and he was showing how you could type 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.520 on a virtual keyboard by having like brain activity read 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.520 here at the wrist. I was fascinated. I was like, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.200 there are two things that make this lead pivotal acquisition 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:26.120 in neurotechnology for this to go mainstream. One is the 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.560 form factor, Like instead of it being a stupid forehead band, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.000 we're talking about something that could show up in your 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.279 watch and be part of everyday wearable devices. But then second, 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.240 and more importantly, he was talking about it becoming the 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.680 interface to technology, replacing your keyboard in your mouth as 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.600 the way that you would interact with other technology. And 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.080 I was like, I get it now. I see how 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:52.960 this stuff becomes mainstream and for everyone is you know, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.440 whether it's augmented reality or the Internet of things. Like 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.080 if you're laying in bed and you want to flick 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.840 off your life that are part of the Internet of 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.360 things in your home, like you either have to reach 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.680 for your phone or maybe you could just imagine doing it, 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:09.880 and then there's a device on your wrist that picks 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.400 up your intention and turns off the light, right, And 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.159 that's what he was talking about. He was talking about, 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.000 like our brain becoming the way we interface with other 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.400 technology through a wearable device, whether that's our computer or 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.240 any other Internet of things, and I was like, I 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:23.039 get it now. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.920 So how big is this industry? Now? 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.680 Oh gosh, I haven't kept up with what the current 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.240 numbers are because the numbers keep changing on a daily basis, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.440 and the numbers are converging with AI and we're talking 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.600 billions to trillions of dollars. Is how people are thinking 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.120 about it, because, for example, I was at a conference 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.960 last week that was this big pivotal conference in the field, 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.960 and at that meeting, I learned about the kind of 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.240 huge bets that Apple is making in the space, and 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.680 it seems like they're getting closer to becoming like a 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.599 big help platform kind of bet in the brain. And 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.160 if that happens, then the size of the industry we're 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.200 talking about is like the size of Apple and every 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.360 Apple device that's out there that starts to become a 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.120 brain health and a brain tracking device in addition to 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.560 everything else that's out there. So I'd say I don't 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.600 know exactly what the number is anymore, because the number 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.160 is as big as the economy. 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.160 And I'm just going to paraphrase from one of your 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.840 articles here, This from a while ago So there's Neurolink, 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.960 which raised six hundred and fifty million at a nine 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.360 billion dollar valuation. That's Elon's Project Synchron one hundred and 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:41.160 forty five million, Precision Neuroscience ninety three million, Paradromics eighty 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.280 seven million. Sam Altman from open Ai is supposed to 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.040 be co founding merged labs that hit close to a 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.440 billion dollar valuation before launching. It hasn't even launched yet. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.840 There's a bunch of names, a lot of money, and. 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.640 These are just the implanted companies, right, So you listed 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.640 a bunch of companies that are companies that are primarily 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.400 going through regulatory approval with the Food and Drug Administration 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.040 or other medical regulatory licensing organizations like within the governments 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.239 where the goal is for people who are suffering from 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:17.400 als or suffering from like paraplegia. These are people who 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.120 would be eligible to participate in clinical trials where they'd 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.520 have a whole, you know, cut in their skull, an 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.280 implant that would be implanted inside of the brain which 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.960 could read brain activity and then it interacts with something 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.240 outside the body, like an application that helps to code 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.880 that brain activity and might enable them to interact with 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.520 an iPhone or an iPad or smart things within their 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.200 home so that they can interact with the outside world, 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:50.880 which is an extraordinary possibility. So those companies are one 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.959 set of neurotech companies. The other set of neurotech companies 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.520 are companies like Meta and Apple, who instead of investing 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.040 in technologlogy that's implanted inside the brain, are looking at 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.839 wearable devices. And so you know a lot of people 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.760 have an Apple smart watch. The Apple smart watch already 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.640 has inside of it sensors that pick up things like 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.160 heart rate, or smart rings that pick up things like 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:19.679 temperature or movement. And for these companies, what they're looking 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.079 at is putting sensors that pick up brain activity at 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:28.520 a much lower signal rate than inside the brain. So 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.040 you might have a few electrodes that are inside air 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.600 pods or in the soft cups that go around your 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.040 ears or pick up what's called peripheral nervous system activity. 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.640 So as your brain sends a signal down your arm 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.000 to your wrist and picks up your intention to swipe 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.040 or type or move, it can pick up that peripheral 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.160 nervous system activity. So this is picking up noisier like 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.200 less sensitive brain data and by less sensitive, I mean 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.280 it's not as fine tune signals as being inside the brain, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.480 but can be really powerful for things like being able 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.400 to interact with the device or being able to interact 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.440 with augmented reality or virtual reality. So these are very 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.840 different things, Which is the numbers you were listening were 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:16.360 for the implanted neurotechnology world for people who have serious diseases. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.520 The wearable world is for everybody else. Like instead of 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.400 just tracking your heart rate through your Apple Watch, you 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.760 track your stress levels, you track your brain activity. You 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.559 track for me, I'm a chronic migraine er, you track 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.679 your likelihood of an impending migraine, or your likelihood of 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.359 an epileptic seizure, or a lot of different brain signals 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.760 that could give you brain health information and brain wellness information. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:43.640 And so when I say it's as like big as 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.360 the economy, it's as big as every person who has 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.560 a brain and once inside in what's happening with their brains. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.680 Or for every person who has a mouse or a 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.280 keyboard and might come to replace the mouse or keyboard 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.040 with interacting with those devices with a slight flick of 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.600 their finger instead of out of moving around on a 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.000 mouse Okay. 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.480 The one company that I think people may have heard 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:10.120 of is Neuralink, oh sure, yeah, which is doing something 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.000 fundamentally pretty different from some of the stuff that you 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.920 were talking about, whether it's a headband or earbuds or whatever. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.280 And how is that different from, say, what neuralink is 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:19.760 trying to do. 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.160 And the reason most people have heard of Neuralink, of course, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.880 is because Elon Musk runs Neuralink. And one of the 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:31.000 very hard things about implanted neurotechnology is the limited number 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.920 of neurosurgeons who can perform what is a very delicate 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.320 operation to get a device into a person's brain. And 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.560 Neuralinks started to build basically robots that could do part 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.000 of that surgery, with the vision of being able to 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.320 have clinics all over the country or all over the 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.480 world that could implant what is a very tiny device. 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.960 And then the very tiny device has basically like hair 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.360 like threads that are attached to it that reach through 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.160 the brain and bed in the brain. So what a 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.679 neuralink device does that's very different than these wearable devices 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.240 is it's reaching into lots of different parts of the brain, 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.280 and it has many, many, many more electrodes than the 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.560 couple of electrodes that you might have outside the brain 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.200 that have to be read through the skull, so it 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.920 bypasses like it's inside, picking up brain activity where. 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.480 It's happening direct from the source, direct from the. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.280 Source, and at a scale that is nothing like what 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.440 is happening outside the brain. And so he's been very 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.400 clear that his vision is not that this is just 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.880 for people who've suffered from als or paraplesia or things 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.120 like that. He thinks everybody one day should have a 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.600 brain implant that can read brain activity at that depth 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.280 and potentially write to brain activity. And that he has 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.840 said like he thinks this is the way that humans 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.200 compete with AI. Is essentially merging with AI, is how 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:58.160 he's touted it. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:03.280 Emerged scenario with AI is the one that seems like 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.640 probably the best like for us, Yes, if you can't 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.440 beat it, join it. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.160 That's Elon Musk talking to Joe Rogan back in twenty eighteen. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:19.840 So from a long term existential standpoint, that's like the 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:25.079 purpose of neuralink is to create a high bandwidth interface 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.959 to the brain such that we can be symbotic with AI. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.480 Now, how close is that? How far is that I 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.000 have no idea. I think it's weighs out right. There 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:40.280 aren't even FDA approved implants yet, let alone for healthy 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.319 people choosing to drill a hole in their skull and 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:43.559 putting a device inside of it. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.440 But you don't necessarily have to drill a hole in 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.679 your head. AI companies are looking at wearable devices that 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.560 would allow you to get similar results. 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:57.800 OpenAI has an entire division that is now dedicated to 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.320 trying to build brain found models, where one day you 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.040 would have a model like instead of a large language 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.680 model that just speaks in texts, in video and other 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.400 kinds of context. It also could go from brain signals 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.679 to text to video to being truly multimodal. And they 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:22.600 have this big investment in merged labs to create a 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.440 brain computer interface through a very different mechanism than other 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.400 ones do. All of these trillionaires who have AI companies 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.800 are investing in major neurotechnology because they see these as 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:39.160 converging fields. People like Elon Musk see these as ultimately 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:44.960 converging together. That you interact with AI through your neurotechnology, 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:46.920 that you interact with the rest of the world through 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.720 your neurotechnology, which also then decodes what's happening in your neurotechnology. 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.440 It's this loop between the brain and AI that they're 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:55.720 really building toward. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.280 So that's where we are brain implants for people who 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.920 need them, and neuro headstraps it best buy for everybody else, 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.160 and trillion dollar companies racing to be the first to 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.640 make money off of a loop between you and AI. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.280 After the break, we'll find out if this stuff can 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.440 actually read your mind yet, because under certain circumstances it 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:26.120 kind of can. So, I mean there's kind of two 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.520 ends of this that you're talking about here, right. There's 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.960 the being able to control pac Man with your brain. Cool, 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.280 that's one part, right, and then there's somebody being able 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.800 to read what is in your brain. I mean effectively 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.240 you have to have that, right. If you're able to 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.600 control something, something needs to be reading what I suppose, 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.640 what you're thinking. And that's the other end of this, right, Yeah. 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.720 And then the question is, now we go back to 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.800 the philosopher side of me. What does it mean to think? 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.600 And what is it that you're really decoding? 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.200 What does it mean to think? Okay? 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.760 Well, I mean it matters, right because when people hear 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.600 mind reading, what they think of is like all of 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.480 the thoughts in your head, the images, the feelings, this 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.120 like really robust concept of what it means to be 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.160 a thinking human. And what neurotechnology is decoding right now 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.880 is like one stream of that, not everything that's in 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:23.040 your head. Like most of the consumer neurotechnology, it's decoding 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:28.880 basic brain states. So it's decoding are you tired, are 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.240 you happy? Are you feeling like positive or negative? Are 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.520 you paying attention? Or is your mind wandering? But it's 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:41.200 not decoding like your full mental landscape. And increasingly what 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.520 AI is being used to do is to train on 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.720 weaker and weaker signals to be able to translate intentionally 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.280 communicated speech. Now, what is that versus just thought? If 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.240 I want to send a text message, I am formulating 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.560 words that I intend to express out of my brain 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.840 and into the world, as opposed to like the private ruminations, 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.720 like the things like you're turning over an idea in 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.000 your mind. You have a new crush and you're envisioning 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.159 that crush. That's not something you mean to communicate outside 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.000 of your brain. And so what neurotechnology so far has 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.960 been trained to do is to pick up that kind 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.880 of speech that you're trying to translate out of your brain, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.000 which shows up differently in your brain. 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:32.320 How does this stuff actually work a layperson? I think 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.760 we have a general idea that Okay, there's something called 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.840 synapses and there's like electric signals going on in your brain. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.359 But how does that get translated out to actually data 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.840 that a computer could read or that could be useful. 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.239 So depends on what it is that's being decoded out. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.560 But let's start with consumer wearables. Let's imagine that, like 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:55.760 I have an air pods right now, Let's imagine I 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.639 have earbuds in that are picking up brain waves. So 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.240 what are brain waves as you think, as you are 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.280 feeling anything. As you said synapses, right, neurons are firing 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.400 in your brain, which give off tiny electrical discharges. And 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.760 when you have any dominant mental state that you're experiencing, 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.479 you'll have hundreds of thousands of neurons that are firing 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.280 at the same time giving off those little electrical discharges. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.800 And the some of those electrical discharges are what can 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.760 be picked up outside of the skull. What these kinds 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.119 of AirPods or like other electrodes can pick up is 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.440 they pick up the brain waves and the amplitudes of 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.960 the different waves, and then AI has been trained on 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.560 those patterns in the same way that AI has been 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.199 trained to be able to look at breast mammograms and 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.280 be able to say, this one is cancer, this one 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.760 is not cancer. It's like pattern recognition, right, So same 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.679 thing is happening with brain waves and brainwave amplitudes. Is 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.679 different patterns and different brainwave amplitudes have been associated with 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:05.960 positive negative, mind wandering, paying attention. So it's just taking 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:12.000 what are brain waves and then training AI to understand 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.240 this is what it looks like at any particular moment. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.040 So there're gonna be some people who hear this and 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.720 think this sounds amazing. If I can play pac Man 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.280 with my brain now, yo, I bet I can just 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.080 run a call of duty lobby and maybe you know, 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.399 a couple of years, maybe like really truly play with 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.760 my brain now. Granted, there's gonna be some people who 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:35.439 are thinking all this, you know, this would be awesome 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.880 for is like scrolling TikTok and better without my hands, 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:38.840 like this would be amazing. 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.960 Probably infinite scroll like that is just it's painful to imagine. 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.680 Truly. Yeah, actually, like in the most literal sense of 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.080 the word, possible brain rod But there's gonna be some 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:56.240 people who are super into this. Yeah, and honestly sounds cool, right. 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.840 You know, I'm able bodied, I'm able to use the 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.159 computer with my hands, but yo, if I don't have to, 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:02.840 if I can do it from across the room, that's 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.159 kind of cool. And then the ability to for somebody 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.080 who has lost the ability or doesn't have the ability 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:10.719 to do some of the things that I'm able to do, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.439 type or speak or whatever, if they can control a 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.400 computer communicate with people directly amazing. 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:18.800 You. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.560 Your book, however, is called The Battle for the Brain, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.520 and I feel like there's you have some caveats, I understand. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.399 What should we be thinking about? 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:30.520 This? 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.919 Is it? This is your last stand for privacy. All 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.920 you've got left at this point is what's happening inside 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:42.359 of your brain. Right at this point, people have given 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.480 up their privacy of their everyday interactions. They carry a 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.480 device around all the time that tracks their every movement, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.320 even their every movement throughout their house. They have listening 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:58.639 devices in their bedrooms. They have smart refrigerators that know 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.199 exactly how much food and other things that you know 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.359 are going on when you even start to type a 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.280 search into Google, it auto completes. There are all kinds 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.480 of predictions that are happening all day long about what 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.200 you're thinking. That's why you have targeted advertisements and social 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.679 media feeds that are tailored to what algorithm thinks that 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.640 you will like. But it's still not perfect, and there 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:24.679 is still a piece of you you hold back that 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.439 you do not express, and that part of you is 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.920 in your mind. And when you start to hook up 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.480 sensors to that part of you, that's it. You've given 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.399 that last stand of freedom, that last bit of privacy, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.240 to companies that have shown themselves to be particularly bad 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:45.280 at having your self interest in mind. 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.600 So let's back up. Even because we're speaking about it 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.120 as though it's something that will happen in the future, 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.800 but no, it's happening now, So yeah, tell me about it. 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.199 What I did was I wrote the book really to say, like, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:03.000 here's what's happening right now, not like here's some future 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.720 sci fi scenario, but here are misuses of the technology 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.600 that are happening right now. Here are educational institutions in 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.320 China that are forcing fifth graders to wear headsets that 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.000 track their attention and their mind wandering in the classroom. 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.760 Here are police across the world who are using wearable 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:25.480 neurotechnology to interrogate criminal suspects. Here employers who are tracking 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.640 productivity and tracking whether they're workers are fatigued or paying 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:34.560 attention in the workplace, Like the kinds of abuses and 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:39.640 misuses that you might imagine. I give example after example 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.000 in the book of them happening right now, just not 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:43.440 at skill. That's the only difference. 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.199 The employer monitoring thing. I think that one's like, particularly 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.480 because that really feels like something that could happen immediately anywhere. 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:53.880 If it's able to happen in one place. 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.280 You know, it's funny because I my sister's an employement 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.399 at Journey, and when she read my chapter your brain work, 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:02.320 she was horrified. 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:07.439 And so here that has to be really interesting. 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:10.000 Family goes, oh, it's like fun family talks. But okay, 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:14.440 So here's the basic idea, Like, especially since the pandemic bossware, 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:19.720