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Speaker 1: Oh Man, Folks, in a world of conspiracy, there are

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Speaker 1: all kinds of names. It's easy to miss some of them,

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Speaker 1: but one name you should definitely remember is a guy

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Speaker 1: called Jack Parsons, a literal rocket scientist and a fascinating,

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Speaker 1: fascinating person. I still read about this guy. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: think there's something more to the story. But who was he?

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Speaker 2: Well, he was a rocket scientist, as you said, but

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Speaker 2: he hit some interesting associates and friends and people you

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Speaker 2: would hang out with and let's say, do very specific things.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, besties with Alistair Crowley, who you may ever

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Speaker 3: heard of. Kind of a big deal in that occultic space.

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Speaker 3: But there's a lot of parts about this guy's story,

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Speaker 3: Jack Parsons story, that you probably aren't familiar with, And

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Speaker 3: if you haven't heard this episode, it's a good time

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Speaker 3: to dig in.

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Speaker 1: So here we go with sex Hoults in rocket Science,

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Speaker 1: the Jack Parsons story, from UFOs to psychic powers and

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Speaker 1: government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can

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Speaker 1: turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and

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Speaker 2: they call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer Paul Decktt. Most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you, You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Today we bring you two worlds that will smash together,

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Speaker 2: the world of science, rocketry, physics, and the occult, the mysterious,

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Speaker 2: the the void.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely and that sounds maybe like a little bit of hyperbole,

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Speaker 1: but it's that's absolutely true. Today's episode centers on something

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Speaker 1: that the three of us find fascinating and we hope

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Speaker 1: you find it fascinating too. It's a little known cover

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Speaker 1: up that was quite successful for decades. It occurs in

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Speaker 1: the United States, and it does, as you said, Matt,

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Speaker 1: combine the bleeding edge of science with the hidden dare

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Speaker 1: we say occulted heart of the dark arts?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And how different are they really? We'll get into

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Speaker 2: that too. The exploration of mankind's abilities, that's really what

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Speaker 2: both of those pursuits are. What can we achieve either

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Speaker 2: with our hands or through our mind and through some

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Speaker 2: other plane that may be spiritual?

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Speaker 1: Right, And this also calls to mind the old sci

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Speaker 1: fi quotation that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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Speaker 2: And there you have it. That is the end that

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Speaker 2: encapsulates this episode.

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Speaker 1: Yes, let's start at the beginning. Marvel white Side Parsons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not a comic book character.

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Speaker 1: It's his real name. Isn't that a great name?

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Marvel Whiteside Parsons is born on October two, nineteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, California.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's also known as Jack. That's what he becomes

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Speaker 2: known as.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And from his early childhood days, Jack has

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Speaker 1: an abiding interest in rocketry. At this point in the

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Speaker 1: early twentieth century, rocketry is still seen very much as

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Speaker 1: a science fiction thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where it exists in the pages of fiction,

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Speaker 2: of drawings of what a rocket could.

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Speaker 1: Be like, right, people landing on various lunar shores, weird

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Speaker 1: space rocks, and meeting you.

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Speaker 2: Know, martians, perhaps.

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Speaker 1: Martians, Yeah, some sort of some sort of alien that

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Speaker 1: functions as a stand in for whatever ideology the author dislikes. Yep,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of There was a lot of communism

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Speaker 1: in space at the time. Gotta love allegory, Yeah, especially

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Speaker 1: when it's naked allegory. Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: But Jack swallows the stuff hook line and sinker. He

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Speaker 1: loves it, loves it, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us can understand that feeling. Right. In nineteen twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: Jack and his friend, a guy named Ed Foreman, start

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Speaker 1: experimenting with rockets on an amateur level. Matt, have you

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Speaker 1: ever done this when you were a kid? Did you

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Speaker 1: ever make and launch those model rockets?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's about the right time. When he was fourteen,

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Speaker 2: he was doing this. When I was in middle school

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Speaker 2: to high school, my friend Scott and I would spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of time in the backyard experimenting with chemicals

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Speaker 2: and with cardboard tubes actually, which is something that Jack

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Speaker 2: also did.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, what about you? Were you a rocketman a

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Speaker 1: rocket boy? So conspiracy realists, fellow listeners, our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul has asked us to relay to.

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Speaker 2: You because he won't record his own voice.

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Speaker 1: Because he couldn't get him on MIC. He asked us

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Speaker 1: to relate to you that he, like many of us,

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Speaker 1: as a child, bought the model rocket kits, experimented with

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Speaker 1: them in the backyard, and noted there was an element

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Speaker 1: of danger to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like there's an explosion that happens, and then

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Speaker 2: this thing goes up into the air really high, and

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Speaker 2: then usually at least in my experience, blows up to

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Speaker 2: some extent.

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Speaker 1: And Jack Parsons to let the badger out of the bag. Here.

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Speaker 1: He is from a wealthy family.

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Speaker 2: A very wealthy family, a very well.

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Speaker 1: To do family, and he gets some leeway experimenting with

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Speaker 1: these rockets, something a lot of kids can maybe afford

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Speaker 1: to do, And even if they can afford to do it,

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Speaker 1: not many of them have the ingenuity, perhaps yeah, to

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Speaker 1: do this. So his parents' backyard is filled with craters

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Speaker 1: very soon after he begins experimenting with stuff, and his

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Speaker 1: neighborhood is littered with flaming bits of paper and scorched

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Speaker 1: cardboard tubes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a year before the Great Depression hits,

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Speaker 2: by the way, in nineteen twenty eight. So everybody's living

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Speaker 2: the high life shooting off rockets in their backyard. Well,

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Speaker 2: at least Jack is right, right.

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Speaker 1: And as Parsons and Foremen go to high school, they

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Speaker 1: become captivated with how ingenious is this? They become captivated

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Speaker 1: with the idea of creating a solid fuel rocket engine.

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Speaker 1: And this concept at the time is widely considered poppycock, nonsense.

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Speaker 2: It can't happen. Why would you study that right now?

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Speaker 1: Yes, what are you a poon? Yes, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean?

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Speaker 2: And to get on the liquid stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if God meant rockets to travel to space, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: God have put them there already?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: One are those things. Yeah, but Parsons also as a kid,

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Speaker 1: has long, meandering teenage conversations. I'm sure we can all

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Speaker 1: identify with some of with those situations, like when you're

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Speaker 1: when you're a teenager, you often get involved in these

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Speaker 1: epic marathon conversations. You hang up, no, you hang up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So who is who is Parsons talking to?

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Speaker 2: Uh, he's he's talking to someone who was born two

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Speaker 2: years before him, who was also a fairly young man

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Speaker 2: at the time, a man named Werner von Brown, Magnus

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Speaker 2: Maximilian von Brown. There's there's a lot more names in there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you might remember this fella. So he has kind of

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Speaker 2: become a name on this show. We talk about him

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Speaker 2: quite often. He's the former Nazi scientist who helped to

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Speaker 2: develop the V two rocket for the Nazi Party, and

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Speaker 2: then he was secretly brought over to the US via

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Speaker 2: that Operation paper Clip that we speak about, where over

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Speaker 2: sixteen hundred scientists were brought to the United States and

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Speaker 2: then you know, he went on to develop the Saturn

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Speaker 2: five heavy lift vehicle that was used in the Apollo

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Speaker 2: programs that took us to the Moon, as well as

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Speaker 2: the original rockets that started the United States space program.

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Speaker 2: And there's like, there's a whole other host of things

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Speaker 2: that he did for this country and for rocketry in general.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit of an eye opener for

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Speaker 1: anybody who just started listening to our show to learn

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Speaker 1: that the NASA institution, as we understand it, would not

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Speaker 1: be capable of the feats it is capable of, yeah,

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Speaker 1: without Nazi engineering and ingenuity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And again at this point, he's just a

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Speaker 2: young guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel, you know, I feel weird say

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Speaker 1: Nazi ingenuity. We do have to point out Operation paper

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Speaker 1: Clip was a genuine conspiracy, yeah, and cover up that occurred.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the American public did not know about

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Speaker 1: it and would not learn about it for some time.

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Speaker 1: But many of those scientists were not necessarily like, they

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Speaker 1: were not ideological Nazis.

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Speaker 2: No, they're the greatest minds in their fields.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they some of them were only there because

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Speaker 1: they couldn't get out of Germany before things went south.

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Speaker 2: Certainly.

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Speaker 1: So that's this is all this all stuff that neither

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Speaker 1: Parsons nor von Braun know about at this time. They're

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Speaker 1: just two rocket nerds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just talking on the phone.

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Speaker 1: And as he said, Matt, the Great Depression hits here

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Speaker 1: in the US. We usually think of the Great Depression

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Speaker 1: just in terms of its effect on this country, but

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Speaker 1: the Great Depression has consequences that touch the entire globe. Right,

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Speaker 1: very few people, accept arguably the people responsible for the

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Speaker 1: situation escape unscathed in most countries. The Great Depression starts

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty nine, lasts until the late nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: and because of this, Parsons family is not elite enough

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Speaker 1: to survive the situation. So instead of becoming increasingly aristocratic,

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Speaker 1: they lose a ton of money. And this prevents him

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Speaker 1: from completing his higher education at Pasadena Junior College and

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Speaker 1: Stanford University, and he ultimately drops out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Then in a moment of I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: guess this was just opportunity fortune. In nineteen thirty three,

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Speaker 2: our gentleman here, Jack Parsons, and his friend Ed Foreman,

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Speaker 2: they approach another man named Frank Molina, and he at

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Speaker 2: this point as a graduate student at Caltech California Technical Institute,

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Speaker 2: and they ask for his help for his expertise because

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Speaker 2: he's already kind of working in these fields, like, how

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Speaker 2: can you help us with rocket research that we want

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Speaker 2: to do that we're so passionate about.

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Speaker 1: Right, And luckily for them, Frank is a pretty open

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Speaker 1: minded guy. He says, you know what, yeah, I'll team

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Speaker 1: up with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, okay, sure, let's do this. Guys. They

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Speaker 2: must have come to him with something very compelling.

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Speaker 1: Well, also his field of study concerned rocketry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well exactly. But again for them to team up together,

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Speaker 2: the other two gentlemen, Ed and Jack must have had

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Speaker 2: some pretty good schematics or some math and or science

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Speaker 2: worked out to have Molina go yes, let's do this, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So it's a good partnership for these guys because

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Speaker 1: Frank is bringing scientific rigor, yes, academic discipline, and these

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Speaker 1: rocket heads can I say that, sure they're rocket heeads,

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Speaker 1: rocket heeads. These other rocket heeads are bringing a lot

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Speaker 1: of practical knowledge and experience and know enough about rocketry

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Speaker 1: to ask intriguing questions. And intriguing questions are the best

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Speaker 1: way to talk to a grad student anywhere. Yeah, grad

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Speaker 1: students in the audience, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these unanswered questions that perhaps we could be the

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Speaker 2: ones to discover the.

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Speaker 1: Truth, and especially when they're niche, because you know, you

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Speaker 1: have to imagine at this time, it's safe to say

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Speaker 1: that Frank Molina is probably in need of someone to

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Speaker 1: talk with about rocketry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're we're in the days, you know, the

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Speaker 2: mid nineteen thirties, everything up until this point, Like we

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Speaker 2: kind of mentioned earlier, rock Tree, the whole idea of

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Speaker 2: jet propulsion, these kinds of things. It's just it's something

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Speaker 2: of the future. It's something that you read in a

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Speaker 2: book somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's a work of fiction. Nowadays, in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: as we record this, the phrase rocket scientist is almost

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Speaker 1: always used as a synonym for genius, usually in a

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Speaker 1: sarcastic way. Right. Yeah, but back in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: pre World War Two, most people did as as you said, Matt,

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Speaker 1: I think rocket Tree was ridiculous, eccentric and impractical. You know, pseudoscience,

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Speaker 1: a sort of a hunt for fool's gold in the

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Speaker 1: sky exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be like if you went out to

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Speaker 2: a bar right now, and someone introduced themselves to you

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Speaker 2: as a as like a teleportation specialist or something to

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Speaker 2: that effect or research. I research teleportation.

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Speaker 1: I'm a teleportationist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, oh, okay, well see you later.

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Speaker 1: Right, what do you really do?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: I attempt to teleport things instantaneously through space and time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at this point it's mostly on paper, but we're

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Speaker 2: getting there.

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Speaker 1: We've done some very interesting things with very small bits

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Speaker 1: of matter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I could totally see that that's an interesting person, maybe

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Speaker 1: at a bar as a stranger, but that's not That

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it's a real thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're probably not looking to get into any kind

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Speaker 2: of business venture with that person at this point.

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Speaker 1: So these guys are not being taken seriously. Jack Parsons,

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Speaker 1: head foreman Frank Molina are not being taken seriously. They

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Speaker 1: form a group called gal Sit Rocket Research Group. They're

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Speaker 1: ridiculed by professors and learned individuals of cow Tech. They

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Speaker 1: even get a.

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Speaker 2: Nickname, Yeah, the Suicide Squad. Not the DC Universe IP,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, the Suicide Squad. It's really just due to

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Speaker 2: the reckless nature of what they do, how they perform

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Speaker 2: their experiments, these things explode.

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Speaker 1: Which is mainly Then you go ahead and say it's

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Speaker 1: mainly Parsons. Yeah, he's like, are you familiar with The Stand?

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Speaker 2: I am?

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Speaker 1: Okay. So in the adaptation of The Stand in the

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Speaker 1: novel itself, which is better than the adaptation, no knock

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Speaker 1: on the adaptation. But in the novel The Stand, there

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Speaker 1: is a character called the garbage Man. Yes, trash can Man,

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Speaker 1: that's it, that's his name, and trash can Man without

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Speaker 1: spoiling the story.

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Speaker 2: And without just being wonderful to say.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, trash can Man has a weird fascination with

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Speaker 1: blowing things up. And there's a little bit of trash

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Speaker 1: can Man and Jack Parsons and Parsons and trash can Man,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Oh, totally.

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Speaker 1: And so it's no surprise that the people who are

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Speaker 1: used to more buttoned up conservative experiments and methodologies, it's

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Speaker 1: no surprise that they think this guy is just a

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Speaker 1: somewhere between a cartoon and a terrorist.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, Well, it's not like he conducts

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Speaker 2: himself in any of those manners that you're speaking. These

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Speaker 2: guys are would probably consider themselves and acted like like

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Speaker 2: hot Shots Part two. But no, for real, like like

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Speaker 2: walking around campus like you doing rocket scientist lady, and

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Speaker 2: also smoke a little pot, probably.

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Speaker 1: Drink talk about socialism. Yeah, because they hung admal up.

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Speaker 1: But they it wasn't just hanging out to build and

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Speaker 1: talk about rockets. They did have social lives and they

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Speaker 1: spent that time together and they partied.

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Speaker 2: There goes the suicide Squad. But by the way, uh,

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Speaker 2: I know you, you and Noel had mentioned this before,

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Speaker 2: and specifically I think you had mentioned this. But Castle

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Speaker 2: Rock just because we got into a Stephen King, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: novel there Castle Rock. I'm finally starting to watch and

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Speaker 2: I could not I could not recommend it more.

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Speaker 1: How far are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm only three episodes in, but I'm just loving all

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Speaker 2: the little bits and pieces I keep picking up from

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Speaker 2: the universe.

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Speaker 1: I'm very interested to hear what you think about the

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Speaker 1: end because the whole season's out now.

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Speaker 2: Oh it is. Oh that makes me happy.

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Speaker 1: I think ten episodes. Okay, So without saying anymore, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to direct this in a way

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Speaker 1: that won't spoil it. Where you Matt, how about this, folks?

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear what you think about this. Matt.

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Speaker 1: I know you would too, but we don't want to

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Speaker 1: spoil it for Matt. So if you have strong opinions,

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear them. I'm a little conflicted

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Speaker 1: about the end. You can write to me directly so

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't go to.

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Speaker 2: Write to conspiracy. Just put a conspiracy at how stuff

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Speaker 2: works dot com. Just put a little note in there

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Speaker 2: that says at the top, Matt, don't read this.

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Speaker 1: There you go, great, great, Uh, yeah, I want to

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Speaker 1: hear what people think, because it did get renewed.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so.

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Speaker 1: Trash can man aside suicide squad aside parsons isn't completely

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Speaker 1: counterculture in nineteen thirty five. Well, in nineteen thirty four

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Speaker 1: he meets a woman at a church dance incredibly common

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Speaker 1: way to meet people at the time, and in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty five he marries her.

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Speaker 2: Yes, miss Helen Northrop, who is the sister, the older

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Speaker 2: sister I believe of Sarah Northrop Hollister. And that's going

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Speaker 2: to come into play a little later. So we're not

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Speaker 2: going to expound on that. If you know what that is,

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Speaker 2: you can just put a little a little feather in

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Speaker 2: your cap.

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Speaker 1: And if you're the sort of person who cheats at

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Speaker 1: crosswords trivia.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it.

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Speaker 1: You will have an opportunity because we're going to take

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Speaker 1: a break for a word from our sponsor. I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people dealt with a moral or ethical quandary,

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Speaker 1: some of you to borrow the line from D and D.

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Speaker 1: We're very lawful, good about it. I will not cheat.

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Speaker 1: I will wait to hear the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did you eat that one marshmallow now? Or did

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Speaker 2: you wait until after the ad break to get two marshmallows?

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Speaker 1: M hmm, yeah right? Or did you decide I do

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Speaker 1: what I want because doing what I want should be

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Speaker 1: the entirety of the law.

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Speaker 2: Oh, back to well Man. So many easter d eggs already? Alright,

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Speaker 2: I keep going.

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Speaker 1: Back to Parsons. So they continue, despite the ridicule, to

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Speaker 1: make multiple breakthroughs in the study and manufacture of engines,

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Speaker 1: but more importantly rocket fuel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the fuel for those engines. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: They actually receive the first government funding for a rocket

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Speaker 1: try research group, at least in the US.

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Speaker 2: And you know it's this isn't something that our archfriendemissism,

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Speaker 2: our nemesis slash friend, Jonathan Strickland, he would call it

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Speaker 2: a princely sum but you know what they do get

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Speaker 2: where they get mad one grand, they get a stack,

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Speaker 2: they get a single stack. But man, that is a

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Speaker 2: nice stack at the time.

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Speaker 1: Right, especially in the thirties, right. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: They pretty much they have to spend about twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent of it, about a quarter of this thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Good chunk of the budget, repairing.

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Speaker 1: Damage to buildings on the Caltech campus.

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Speaker 2: Damage you say, they've just they've.

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Speaker 1: Been blowing stuff up left. So although they're and also

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Speaker 1: they asked for a lot more than one thousand dollars, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they got one thousand dollars. So they have to spend

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Speaker 1: a bunch of money repairing the campus and the damage

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Speaker 1: they've done to it. Eventually they have to move from

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Speaker 1: the campus entirely due to the danger post by the explosives,

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Speaker 1: and they relocate to the Arroyo Seco Canyon. They're conducting

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Speaker 1: experiments and someone's watching them.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, who is that group? Oh yeah, the Federal

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Speaker 2: Bureau of Investigation is watching them, the FBI. Yeah. I

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Speaker 2: think generally when you're making explosives or things that can explode,

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Speaker 2: that's you're gonna get on a list.

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Speaker 1: And they did, they did get on a list. Also

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Speaker 1: a side note, maybe maybe we should come up with

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Speaker 1: some alternate some alternate interpretations of the FBI acronym.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, the fully bundled.

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Speaker 1: Institute, that's not okay, the fun Boys International, that's it.

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Speaker 2: That's it, fun Boys International with a Z on the boys.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, all right, let us know if that's

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Speaker 1: a good T shirt idea. And Boys International because we

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Speaker 1: could get the we could get the FBI loco.

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Speaker 2: Yes. And one of the reasons they're very much interested

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Speaker 2: in these gentlemen and their penchant to blow things up

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Speaker 2: is because they're interested in extremists of any sort that

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Speaker 2: might want to get with these guys and or just

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Speaker 2: blow things up on the site where they're now located

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Speaker 2: in that Arroyo Siico canyon.

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Speaker 1: Right right, because they are literally just in a couple

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Speaker 1: of rundown shets iron shets the security is not very high.

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Speaker 1: So in addition to being aware of these these rocketheads

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Speaker 1: political leanings and the ideologies with which the identify, the

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Speaker 1: FBI is also aware of the fact that someone the

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Speaker 1: political extremists would be what we call a terrorist today,

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Speaker 1: that someone could ride up their in force, maybe with

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Speaker 1: some firearms and take the explosives, take these chemicals, maybe

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Speaker 1: even take this technology and launch a rocket at a bank,

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Speaker 1: at a city, you know, or.

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Speaker 2: Just blow it up from the ground level, or just blow.

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Speaker 1: It up, that's right, without even bothering to deliver the rocket.

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Speaker 1: So this is when the FBI first has their eye

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Speaker 1: on Parsons and Co. In nineteen forty one, the Suicide

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Speaker 1: Squad founds the Aerojet Engineering Corporation to sell rockets to

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Speaker 1: the military. The scientists who had previously derided and pooped

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Speaker 1: and pissed on Parsons work now are lining up around

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Speaker 1: the block across the country to join this booming industry

400
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 1: because Uncle Sam has officially opened up his wallet. Yeah,

401
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: and Uncle Sam's wallet is big.

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00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: It is that No, it's so big. It's so big. Bit,

403
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Speaker 2: You've got a lot of money, and Uncle Sam doesn't

404
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: even really know how much is in that wallet because

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00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: it's kind of infinite, and sometimes that money just disappears

406
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 2: in the level of trillions and weird little black budgets.

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00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: Or just a palette of let's say a billion dollars

408
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Speaker 1: can disappear in recent memory and barely make a mention

409
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Speaker 1: in the news.

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Speaker 2: It gets on a plane. I didn't see it get off?

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Speaker 2: Did you see it get off? I don't know where

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: It's gone to buy a plane? Doctor?

414
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: Who knows?

415
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: Who knows?

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Speaker 2: It's not like we weigh these things.

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Speaker 1: Right, Let's get back to the real issues. Okay, something

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Speaker 1: social and insignificant, perfect man, we has? Has this show

419
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: made us cynical? No? Has this show made you cynical?

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00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: If you're listening, let us know.

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00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 2: We've had a few people right in about that.

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00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. And you and I have been

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00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: in situations where the void stared back, Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: or the abyss stared back.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it kind of always is staring. Just

426
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Speaker 2: do you choose to see it or not?

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00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, me and the me and the abyss have been

428
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: making some smoldering eye contact recently.

429
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: Made some smoldering eye contact with a dude earlier today.

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Speaker 2: I won't bore you with those details.

431
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was gonna spring that on you and

432
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Speaker 1: ask you to mention that story at the end. Maybe

433
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: we can do that at the end. Would you be

434
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: okay with that?

435
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: That's perfect?

436
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: Okay, And that's this is a Paul and Matt story.

437
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: So we'll have to wait till the end. We're we're

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Speaker 1: building up expectations. Man, we better deliver ours.

439
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: Let's let's do it just like these guys. Let's deliver

440
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Speaker 2: a payload.

441
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: There we go. Now again, Paul refuses to be recorded

442
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: on this show because he's worried about his future political career.

443
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: But he did purposely turn on the mic and chuckle it.

444
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: He did. He gave me a little George W. Bush

445
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: chuckle it was but that was great.

446
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: Deliver the payload. Okay, So the industry is booming right

447
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty three. There's this need for advanced research

448
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: into rockets, and it's growing exponentially because other countries are

449
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: researching this. And just as the US is concerned about

450
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: the technological innovations occurring in rival countries today, the US

451
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: is concerned back then of possible technological gaps.

452
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we have you know, you always have to

453
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: be ahead of your enemy. The whole point of that

454
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: military thing.

455
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: And as we've discussed in previous episodes, nation states don't

456
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: have friends, they have interests.

457
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: Yes, So Parsons Co founds this thing called the Jet

458
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: Propulsion Laboratory that you've probably heard of before, the JPL

459
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: JPL yeah, and they went with this term jet propulsion

460
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: at the suggestion of one of the suicide squad members,

461
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: the third man, Molina, And the whole idea was to

462
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: avoid the stigma associated with that idea or term rocket rocketry.

463
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: Right, rocket just as a phrase. It turned a lot

464
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: of people off.

465
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: We're just interested in this jet propulsion. It sounds nice too, isn't.

466
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: You like jets? You know, propellants.

467
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's perfect.

468
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: It's just those two things together.

469
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 2: It's just the means of transportation.

470
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: They're pregaming before they go into a meeting, and they're

471
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: just coaching themselves not to say the R word. Right. So,

472
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: Parsons and his associates, without going too deep into this,

473
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: they play a crucial role in the development of rocketry

474
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: technology excuse us jet propulsion as World War Two shifts

475
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: into high gear, and the contributions they make also result

476
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: in financial windfalls. Yeah, for all three men, but Parsons

477
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: and particular because he is the mad jet fuel Genius,

478
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: which is also a cool nickname. So we could spend

479
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: our entire episode focusing just on his contributions to the

480
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: field of rocketry, as well as his obsession with blowing

481
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: things up. In general. But there is more to this story.

482
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: You see, Jack Parsons had another obsession, one that was

483
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: even stranger than rocket science.

484
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: And we're going to go down that rabbit hole after

485
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: another quick word from our sponsor.

486
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: Years where it gets crazy. In addition to being obsessed

487
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: with rockets and rocketry, Jack Parsons was obsessed with the occult.

488
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: Yes, the a coat.

489
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah really, these are what our colleague Lare and Vogelbaum

490
00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: will call actual facts. Yeah right. He is not only

491
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: obsessed with the occult, but there is a strange concordance,

492
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: a strange confluence and concurrence of events here because as

493
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: his career as one of the well actually the world's

494
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: best rocket scientists.

495
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: Jet propulsion scientists.

496
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, thank you, Matt, Sorry guys, as his reputation

497
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: grows there, his association with the occult also grows and deepens,

498
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: and he moves up the rank in these esoteric organizations,

499
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: one in particular.

500
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: Yes, the OTO. So in the late nineteen thirties, he

501
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: Parsons begins going to these nightly meetings at the Los

502
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: Angeles chapter of the Ordo Temple Orientis or the OTO,

503
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: and it's an occult society and it was. It was

504
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: formed by a gentleman that you also may know from

505
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: this show. Wow, all the hits in the episode, all

506
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: the goodwins, mister Alister Crowley, can we.

507
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: Get a sinister sound cue for that? Paul? There we go?

508
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, quite appropriate for the Master of the dark arts.

509
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: So at this time, mister Crowley, notice I say Crowley

510
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: and not Crowley. We learn from our mistakes. Yeah, people,

511
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: at this time, he's known as the wickedest man in

512
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: the world. He's got quite the reputation.

513
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's an English occultist, ceremonial magician, con man, all

514
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: these things, scam artists, yeah, novelists.

515
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: Does weird things in old ancient Egyptian.

516
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: Temples, Yeah, and an explorer. He is a British fellow

517
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: born in eighteen seventy five. And as you said, he

518
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: is the founder of maybe he would say, the discoverer,

519
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: the prophet of the Oto. And when Parsons is first

520
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: going to these things, he's a young guy, he's in

521
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: his early twenties and he's seen something that he would

522
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: he would have never seen before. Right, he is watching

523
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: magical rituals being performed and this affects him deeply. But

524
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: it's easy to say that someone sees a ritual and

525
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: it affects them deeply. That's what religion is about. These

526
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: rituals are much more graphic than the typical rituals you

527
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: would encounter in most organized religions.

528
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're talking about sex magic. Ultimately, we're talking

529
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: about chaos magic rituals that a lot of time involve

530
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: blood and other bodily fluids and acts of a carnal nature.

531
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: Let's say, well, and this is you know, he gets

532
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: married in nineteen thirty five, and then now we're in

533
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: the late thirties at this time as he's really kind

534
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: of coming into his own as a scientist in this field.

535
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: It's right, like you said at the same time, this

536
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: is before World War Two, this is before a lot

537
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: of the huge advancements in his career as he's beginning

538
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: to go to these meetings. But he is like fairly

539
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: newly married, and I don't know, I can't imagine what

540
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: that relationship was like behind the closed doors, what it

541
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: was like knowing that your husband is out going to

542
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: these things.

543
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: Well, every relationship is a foreign country, that's correct. Each

544
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: interaction we have with any other person, especially romantic interaction

545
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: obeys its own laws and rituals.

546
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And well and the fact that the

547
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: whole sex, magic, blood magic thing is not the only

548
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: thing going on.

549
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. There's also a ton of spoken word essentially invocations,

550
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: ritualistic chanting, and so on. And there's there's drinking. There's

551
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: more than a dollop of hedonism as they're conducting these rituals.

552
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: There's also the consumption of various things like this mason

553
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: gross to some people, but cakes made of menstrual blood,

554
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: for instance.

555
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: That mason gross to people.

556
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to denegrate someone's religion just because it's

557
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: not my thing, because.

558
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: At a thing. Is that a thing outside of this group?

559
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: Menstrual cakes? I do not know menstrual cakes. I don't know, Matt, Okay,

560
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: I guess it's kind of like the placenta eating the

561
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: placenta after birth, which has become a thing and is

562
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: quite popular.

563
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look, I'm not in the OTO, understood, I'll

564
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: be I'll be explicit about that, okay, all right, but

565
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: I'm more or I'm not in the I am not

566
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: currently in the OTO, okay, but they're still around today. Yes,

567
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: and shout out to any of you who are currently

568
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: members of the organization or have been affiliated with it,

569
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: we'd love to we'd love to hear more about this stuff.

570
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to explain menstrual cakes, I am

571
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: all yours and.

572
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: You seem very you're fascinated with this.

573
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: I guess that's what you could call it.

574
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. I wish you could see this face mass making. Yeah, yeah,

575
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: maybe you're perplexed. Maybe that's a better word. This group

576
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: is practicing Crowley's philosophy of Flemo, which is at base

577
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: kind of I read it described as religious libertarianism, yeah,

578
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: which I thought was a pretty pretty neat way to

579
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: encapsulate it. This is the origin of do what thou

580
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: wilt shall be the whole of the law.

581
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: Remember that callback callack?

582
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah right, we brought it back. Parsons is hooked. He

583
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: is very attract to this idea of radical individualism, of nonconformity,

584
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: and the focus upon fulfilling one's self your own goals.

585
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: Yes, and if anyone else is fulfilled because you are fulfilled,

586
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 2: then so be it. But ultimately it's about you.

587
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: Right, and sort of admitting the open secret that most

588
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: people practice, which is, you know, we're all the main

589
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: characters of our own stories.

590
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: Right, there's nothing you can do about it, nothing you

591
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 2: could do about it. Go ahead and try and break

592
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: that ego, right, maybe you can.

593
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of like you can.

594
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: You could be a cult leader, right and make other

595
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: people echoes of yourself anyway, that maybe that's Some people

596
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: who are in the OTO will feel that that is

597
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: unfair too. Crowley, sure, but he is a master manipulator,

598
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: and this organization does have a lot of manipulative people

599
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: in it. Will see how that comes into play. Parsons

600
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: is especially intrigued by Croley's beliefs that sex can be

601
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: an intrinsic component of magical rituals, that it's not just

602
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 1: a necessary but filthy act, as some of the puritanical

603
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: forces of the time would have him believe. He's he

604
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: likes this idea of sexism means of increasing epiphany.

605
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, reaching some higher plane that you couldn't reach just

606
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: by walking around or thinking about something or writing. You know,

607
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: there's a physical act that can take you somewhere else

608
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 2: and back to his buddies, which, by the way, just

609
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: before we get there, a physical act that can take

610
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: you somewhere else. Think about within the context of jet propulsion, right,

611
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what he's trying to create. The technology that

612
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 2: he is creating in tandem with this is a physical

613
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: way to get to somewhere else, either mood or other places.

614
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, planets, and the idea that your thoughts

615
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: can have tangible material results upon the world around you

616
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: through the force of your will alone. Oto is all

617
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: about the will, philemic magic or whatever.

618
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 2: And in the end, you know, it's just physical forces involved.

619
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 2: In one case you've got explosions and the other you've

620
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: just got friction.

621
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: You got explosions. We're a family show. But yes, that

622
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: is a fantastic point and there's something alchemical about that, right,

623
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: transformative and Parsons friends back to the suicide squad. They

624
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: think this is really weird stuff. Yeah, they're not on board.

625
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: They're like, hey, man, we're here for the rockets. We

626
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: already ate.

627
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we hear you, we hear you, just

628
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: not right.

629
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 1: Now, right right right? You used to be cool. Let's

630
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: be work friends. But they think it's you know, they

631
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: I think it's weird, but there's still genuinely friends. At first,

632
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: they just feel like this is a harmless obsession. This

633
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: is just Parsons being Parsons, at least at.

634
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: First, Yes, and then he just keeps going double down.

635
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. So let's talk about Thelma, this religion

636
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: that was founded. It is a religion, and it was

637
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: founded in nineteen oh four. So you know, at the

638
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 2: time when Parsons joins up, it's like thirty years old

639
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: something around. They are well thirty five.

640
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: I guess it's pretty young.

641
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a young religion. It's as old as I am.

642
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: If there is a religion that is old as I

643
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: currently am, as we're recording this podcast, it's very young. However,

644
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 2: like most occult practices, this gentleman Alistair Crowley, he argued

645
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: that it's based on these ancient, ancient beliefs, these esoteric

646
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: thoughts that have occurred far far before he was born,

647
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: far before anyone that is on earth was born, that

648
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: are forgotten a lot of times, or hidden, or just.

649
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: Universal law that exists that is bigger than our common

650
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: understanding of the world in which we live. Yes, exactly,

651
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: higher planes of consciousness, stuff of the ooze. There we go. Yeah, primordial.

652
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: The word the lima itself is a form of ancient

653
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: Greek for will. You know it's in like determination, not some.

654
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: Guys, not William.

655
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, wouldn't that be funny though?

656
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 2: It's just will It's.

657
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: William will William magic. Thelemic magic, spelled with a K

658
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: is a system of physical, mental, and spiritual exercises designed

659
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: to quote cause change to occur in conformity with will.

660
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: This is going to be familiar to a lot of

661
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: people who have read things like The Secret Yeah, or

662
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: Mind over Matter.

663
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: And type stuff, manifestation beliefs.

664
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: Right, can believe it, you can achieve it. So this

665
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 1: differs from some of that pop psychology self help stuff

666
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: because it has specific instructions meant to meant to accomplish

667
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: certain tasks. So Croley adds that K to magic because

668
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: he wants to differentiate it from stage magic or illusion.

669
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not just switching out the sea, it's

670
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: adding a K to the full word message.

671
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's really important to Croley, Yeah yeah,

672
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: and to people who practice this today. Many of the

673
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: rituals in this discipline are a synthesis of older rituals,

674
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: stuff from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and

675
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: then practices from Eastern belief systems. They captured Croley's attention.

676
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: Well, and that's ye. Crowley was a member of their

677
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: medic Order of the Golden Down for a while and

678
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: he borrowed a lot of that stuff.

679
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: Right, right, and I think was pretty open about it.

680
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,479
Speaker 2: But like this is my thing now, my thing now.

681
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: Yes, And there are some examples of this kind of stuff.

682
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: There's a ritual in the Library of Things that he's written.

683
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: There's a ritual meant to invoke a holy guardian angel

684
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: that you could have a conversation with, and rituals called

685
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: libra semic and there's a gnostic mass it's a eucharistic

686
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: kind of ritual. And then of course there's sexual gnosis,

687
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: the idea that through physical acts with oneself or another

688
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: person or people, it's possible to achieve a higher plane

689
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: of consciousness, which for skeptics is going to sound a

690
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: lot like a way to convince people to sleep with you.

691
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it's also a it's an interesting little

692
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: litmus test when you're going through and trying to sell

693
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 2: someone on this religion. You can tell if it's someone

694
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: you want in your group or not as soon as

695
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 2: you get there, and you start discussing how perhaps we'll

696
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 2: use the word masturbation of you and your friends here

697
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: that we're all hanging out with as I'm talking to

698
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 2: you about this, that's one of our major rituals. And

699
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: a certain percentage of those people are going to turn around,

700
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: walk away, and then a few others are going to go,

701
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: let me hear a little more about this. And those

702
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: are the people that you want in your group.

703
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: And there's probably something. It's probably not something where they

704
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: just throw people to the deep end. It escalates over

705
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: a period of time, right, sure, But.

706
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: A little peak behind the curtain gets you your converts.

707
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: I'm thinking strategically in cult formation and gathering the masses.

708
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: Right right right, the idea of being special or privy

709
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: to this hidden knowledge. But for people who do believe this,

710
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: do practice it, and do feel that they have attained

711
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: the realizations for which they yearned or the results that

712
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: they desired, this stuff is legitimate. So we're presenting both

713
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: sides of the belief. We're despite not being in the OTO,

714
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: we're not making a judgment call about it, as these

715
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: people are all in theory, consenting adults in full possession

716
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: of their wits.

717
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: As long as you're not hurting anyone, like say, branding

718
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: them with a cattle iron, then we're okay.

719
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: Right, do what thou wilt, you know what I mean?

720
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: And many It's important to mention that many practitioners of

721
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: this form of magic do seek material, tangible results, money, power, love,

722
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: a breakthrough in rocketry, for example. But it's not a

723
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: mandatory thing. Sometimes it's just a higher realization. Crowley believed

724
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: himself to be a prophet, as we said, and Parsons

725
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: at this time is relating the concepts of magic that

726
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: he's exploring to the ideas of quantum physics in itself.

727
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: Quantum physics is a relatively new concept at this time.

728
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: They're both in their own way young religions.

729
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow, that's a really great point of quantum physics.

730
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: As a young religion, I can totally see that.

731
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean, when you get to the edges of physics,

732
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: it's really just the smartest people in the room throwing

733
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: their opinions at each other. Yeah, you know what I mean,

734
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: which I think is a beautiful, beautiful point for our

735
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: species to be at. So we mentioned that Parsons makes

736
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: a lot of money. He encounters significant amounts of cash,

737
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: as the US government continues to buy his groups liquid

738
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: jet fuel first and jet engines designed to run on

739
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: this fuel.

740
00:44:59,000 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

741
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: This allows him to start holding his own elaborate oto

742
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: rituals at his house, which becomes known as wait for it,

743
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: the Parsonage.

744
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 2: Oh, that's pretty great. It's okay, the parsonage. Well, hey, hey,

745
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: we ben so let's say I've got really nothing to do.

746
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: It's a Friday night. I hear about this new group.

747
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go hang out at the parsonage here. It's

748
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: a good place to be. What am I going to

749
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: get into while I'm over there?

750
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked, Pat. You're gonna get it.

751
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: If you can get in the door, you're gonna get

752
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: into a crazy time. These rituals are very not safe

753
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: for work as we call it today, and they are

754
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: wild for the standards of the time. There are people

755
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: shouting chants during massive orgies, and on multiple occasions, the

756
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: Parsons is taking steps to attempt to conceive the Antichrist

757
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: the moonchild, Wow, straight from the invisibles. Yes, while he

758
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: is at the forefront of rocket technology, he is attempting

759
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: to be at the forefront of antichrist advocacy.

760
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: Wow. And then he he finishes up, has the I'm

761
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: assuming the help clean up afterwards, because you don't want

762
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: to do that on your own, I'm assuming. And he's wealthy,

763
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: as we said. Then you, you know, put on your

764
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: lap coat and head on into work on Monday.

765
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: I mean we've all been in situations like that, right, sure. Yeah,

766
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: good fences make good coworker relationships. Ok, that's probably That's

767
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: probably what his buddies are saying to each other.

768
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, look, man, he's getting that stuff. But man,

769
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: he's really got some great ideas.

770
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: But when he's here, he's here.

771
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

772
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: So in nineteen forty one, things get even stranger. Parsons

773
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: engages in an ongoing sexual relationship with his wife's sister,

774
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: who is seventeen years old at the time. Oh, underage person.

775
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And here's the problem. The group he's a part of,

776
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: the ORTO the OTO. It's kind of encouraged because it's

777
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: something that he wants and that it's all that matters.

778
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: And it seems consensual to everyone involved, so they don't

779
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: call the cops or anything.

780
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: And well there's a flip side of the coin too, right,

781
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: Parsons wife is also in a sexual relationship with one

782
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 2: of these other most senior members of the OTO.

783
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: So there's this very open attitude towards sex and very

784
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: fluid relationships. Right, yeah, monogamy, that's something for the squares.

785
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: The Pasadena police, meanwhile, have been receiving repeated complaints about

786
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: unspeakable acts occurring at the parsonage. Imagine forties, you're one

787
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: of the neighbors. You live in a nice neighborhood. You're

788
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: probably wealthy, as you don't you're probably well off if

789
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: you're living next door to Jack Parsons, and then you're

790
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: hearing these crazy chants, these moans of sexual ecstasy, and

791
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: then maybe some ritualistic screaming. You don't know what's going on.

792
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: It is funny that at in every instance they begin

793
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 2: as a simple noise complaint and the officers show up,

794
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: and then they find themselves in a oh, very different situation.

795
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 2: But there's nothing you do privacy of your own home.

796
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: Just keep it down, please, I guess you're right, Yeah.

797
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: Well that's true. I don't know what the blue laws

798
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: were at the time where he is, like, if he

799
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: could actually be arrested for doing something in his home.

800
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: I sawtomy in the like.

801
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, or maybe consumption of an illegal substance.

802
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: Ah.

803
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,479
Speaker 1: The counter culture is like the Pasadena police Force, well

804
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: aware of Parsons' activity, and in a way he becomes

805
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: a precursor to the common thing that we have here

806
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: in the US today on the West Coast, the billionaire

807
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: bro tech guru Tony Stark esque genius. Right, he makes

808
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: massive amounts of money from his innovations. He spends massive

809
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: amounts of money partying, pursuing alternative lifestyles. And we can

810
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 1: compare it today to tech gurus go microdosing at burning Man.

811
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: Sure, and also come out with incredible technology, or at

812
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: least own the companies that come out with incredible technology.

813
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: Right, And there's this sense that they are somewhat above

814
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: the law of the common peasant.

815
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: Right.

816
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: Note quick cut in your head, folks to that picture

817
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: of Elon Musk on the Joe Rogan Show smoking a

818
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: massive blunt and you know his employees can't do that

819
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: because there would be problems with their security clearances for SpaceX.

820
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really didn't think that was real when I

821
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: just saw the thumbnail from YouTube.

822
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: That nice photoshop.

823
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny. Oh wow, I mean, I it's marijuana.

824
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 2: It's fine. It's legal there.

825
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: It's very close to being legal across the US, you

826
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's just the money got too good.

827
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: That's what happens. The morality this is a different episode,

828
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: but the the racism disguised as morality, that was the

829
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: original reason for the criminalization of marijuana. Just it doesn't

830
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: match up to money.

831
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. That being said, we encourage you not to do drugs,

832
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 2: everyone listening, unless you want to. And that's all the

833
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: whole of the law.

834
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: So there, Hey there were oh man, no comment, no comment.

835
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: So the counter culture aware of this. This guy is

836
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: an La Musk a Tony Stark. Soon, another figure of

837
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: California's underground scene joins the activities, a fellow named el

838
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard. Oh that's true, Pauk. We got to sound

839
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: cue great man. Who's l Ron Hubbard?

840
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 2: El Ron Hubbard is the father of a little thing

841
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: called dionetics. It's a philosophy that he created, that he summoned,

842
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: and he would later change his mind and create the

843
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: concepts that would become a full on religion scientology.

844
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: A religion for tax purposes.

845
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know, I don't know. L Ron Hubbard

846
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: was thinking.

847
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: Well, he joins the gang. He joins the parsonage in

848
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, and around this time Fumboys International remaws

849
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: their interest in parson and both because they're concerned about

850
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: his unorthodox private life, his open practice of the dark arts,

851
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: and still his political inclinations. These may lead him to

852
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: be considered untrustworthy or sympathetic to communist forces.

853
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and in the worst he would be the

854
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: worst kind of mole, the person who is at the

855
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: top creating technology that will then be used. You know,

856
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 2: he's not some he's not a rocket scientist employed by

857
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: this thing. He is the rocket scientist running septualizing thing.

858
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's at the point of expertise where his best

859
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: guess qualifies as leading scientific theory.

860
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want iron Man as an enemy.

861
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: Right there you go, that's a good quote. Yeah, you

862
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: don't want iron Man as an enemy. And also, a

863
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: someone who switched or became a spy or double agent

864
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: or a mole for ideological purposes is much more difficult

865
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: to control than someone who does it because they're in

866
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: or they're being blackmailed, for instance, right, yea much more dangerous. Also,

867
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: so they're like, Okay, the guy's happy. I don't think

868
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,479
Speaker 1: he's hurt anybody, and we need rockets. At this time,

869
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: there's some personal problems that he encounters. The person that

870
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: he's infatuated with Sarah.

871
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: That's the sister of Helen, his wife.

872
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: She becomes infatuated with l Ron mister Steel your girl Hubbard.

873
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 2: Oh yep, that's him.

874
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: And this makes Parsons insanely upset and he starts delving

875
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: into He's moving up in the ranks of the OTO,

876
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: by the way, on the time, getting into leadership positions.

877
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: He develops a different focus. He has a deeper interest

878
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: in witchcraft and the darker side of magic. He's fascinated

879
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: by Poltergeist, by spiritual apparitions.

880
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 2: Oh man. Feeling really tortured at this time.

881
00:53:54,880 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: And being always an innovator, right, he decides to try

882
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: and create a new lover, to create his own lover

883
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: and elemental.

884
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: Wow like like a like a Golam lover.

885
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, like like a thought form. He wants to manifest.

886
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: Got you a perfect lover? Uh? Sarah runs off with

887
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: l Ron Hubbard, and so Parsons takes part in these

888
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: very unusual rituals that are supposed to help him manifest

889
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: his thought into the world.

890
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. He uh, he plants his seed with magic tablets.

891
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: Yep ah, and he does it to the sound of music,

892
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 2: not the not the musical. Yeah, but there's well and well,

893
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: this is something that's at the basis of most chaos

894
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 2: or some chaos magic, where where seed is planted on

895
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: a piece of paper that has writing and or a

896
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: symbol on it that is then burned a lot of

897
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:57,479
Speaker 2: times like a roun.

898
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and shortly after this, Parsons meets a woman

899
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: named Marjorie Cameron, and he feels as if this is

900
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: the elemental force that he has invoked somehow conjured. She

901
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: becomes his muse, and he sees his scientific and spiritual

902
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: pursuits as increasingly intertwined, you know what I mean. Yeah,

903
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: he sees himself as of the line of great thinkers

904
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: like Isaac Newton who totally totally may breakthroughs in physics,

905
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: but then also totally believed in alchemy and practiced.

906
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: It and thought that perhaps the science was part of

907
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 2: the alchemy.

908
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, So Parsons is the same way rocketry is

909
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 1: magic and magic is rocketry. For example, when he works

910
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: on his experiments in the desert, he recites a pagan

911
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 1: poem to pan. You can imagine how weird this sounds

912
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: to the g men. Yeah, who are listening in the

913
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: fun boys are not You're not having fun.

914
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 2: This is not as fun as It's not as fun.

915
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: As the boys thought. Persons eventually runs into financial trouble

916
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 1: after he gets involved with bad investments associated with al

917
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard. This is a pattern Hubbert goes on to repeat.

918
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: By the way, is this the whole yacht thing? Mm

919
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: hmmmm the yacht boys.

920
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hubbard had convinced him to take money and travel

921
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: to Miami and buy three yachts.

922
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 2: Oh, three yachts.

923
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: He has a yacht thing. El Ron Hubbard has a yacht.

924
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: At a time. That's that's that's a lot, okay.

925
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: Many of the academics that are suspected of being Communist

926
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: sympathizers are blacklisted as the Cold War sets in post

927
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: World War two, and this means a Parsons and a

928
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: lot of his colleagues lose their security clearances, and without

929
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: their security clearances, they are out of jobs.

930
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, that is that is a sweeping change

931
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: that starts coming through around that time, and then I

932
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 2: can imagine someone who's associated with something like the Oto

933
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 2: and order the those old communist beliefs that he even

934
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 2: maybe had just back in the day that the Fun

935
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: Boys know about. I can imagine him just getting xed

936
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: off that list. Right.

937
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: So he found himself having to earn money as a

938
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: manual laborer, a hospital orderly, a car mechanic. He was

939
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: pushed out of science, so he dove even deeper into

940
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: the occult. He ended up working for the film industry

941
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: making explosives, creating pyrotechnics, and just before he took a

942
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: trip to Mexico, or just before he was going to

943
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: leave on a tripa planned in nineteen fifty two, he

944
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: received a large order of explosives for a movie and

945
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: while getting everything together, there was an explosion involving mercury.

946
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: Parsons suffered fatal wounds and he died at the age

947
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: of thirty seven.

948
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: This was only thirty seven. He's done all of this,

949
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: that's crazy.

950
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: He his death was ruled an accident. His friends suspected

951
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: it was a state sponsored conspiracy to remove this dangerous

952
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: mad genius from the fold. And that's where it stops.

953
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: Parsons controversial private life led him to be wiped from

954
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: NASA history and that magic stuff aside, esoteric orders aside.

955
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: That's another true cover up, and for a long time

956
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: his role was not acknowledged. According to biographer George Pendall,

957
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: Parsons was written out of the history books, his role

958
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: in rocketry discredited for decades simply because his supernatural beliefs

959
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: did not fit into the other supernatural beliefs that were

960
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: more dominant at the time.

961
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

962
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

963
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: It really is, It really is, and I can identify

964
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 2: with that holy mackerel. It makes you wonder about today

965
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: the people at the bleeding edge of science, what are

966
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: their closed door religious beliefs White biohackers and stuff. Yeah, biohackers.

967
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 2: I mean even like maybe you're Elin Musk and some

968
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: of those people out there right now that can essentially

969
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: do anything they want to do at any time. What

970
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 2: are their spiritual beliefs? And is there anything that's hidden

971
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: enough that we won't know about it? Oh?

972
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: I see, Yeah, that's a fascinating question. Anything you know

973
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: what you had the opportunity to ask, oh, someone about

974
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: this earlier today? You and Paul both we didn't forget folks.

975
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: I missed that opportunity.

976
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: There is a story here, and it's a story that

977
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed hearing. I know that we've been going long,

978
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: but can can you give us just like the broad Strokes,

979
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: the brad Strokes.

980
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: Okay, you're the here're the broad Strokes. Right before we

981
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 2: started recording this episode, I walked in. I was heading

982
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: in a little bit early so I could continue.

983
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: Researching here, and I was running late.

984
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: Ben was not quite in the office yet, and our

985
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: president of our network, his name's Connell Burn. He was

986
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 2: showing somebody around the office and I'm gathering up my

987
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: computer and my books and everything, and I'm heading in.

988
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't think about that because our

989
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 2: president walks around with important people all the time. I

990
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 2: don't know who walks around with Anyway, Conall says, hey, Matt,

991
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 2: this is my friend Brad and I you know, I

992
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 2: just turn and put my hand out and it's just

993
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 2: is Bradley Cooper standing there staring at me with those

994
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: beautiful blue eyes. My goodness, they're striking. But anyway, here's

995
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: the thing, and I hope, I hope he wouldn't be

996
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: upset to mention this. But we begin chatting and we

997
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: get into some conversations about the Apollo missions, and then

998
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: he wants to talk a little bit about September eleventh,

999
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 2: and then we want to talk about a little bit

1000
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: about these other conspiracies. And the guy I think would

1001
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: fit right in with us. And perhaps that's just because

1002
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 2: he's such an enigmatic person that he will engage you

1003
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: in anything you want to talk about. But I did

1004
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 2: not bring up either of those subjects. So yeah, there

1005
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,919
Speaker 2: you go. So there you go.

1006
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: How Matt and Paul met Bradley Cooper.

1007
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 2: Yes, and Paul met Bradley a little later over by

1008
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 2: the water cooler, and they had a very nice conversation

1009
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: about his new movie coming out by the way, that

1010
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 2: he is his directorial debut and he's working with Lady

1011
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 2: Gagats called a Star Is Born. There you go, plug

1012
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 2: for Bradley Cooper.

1013
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 1: You're welcome, Brad and thank you everyone for tuning in.

1014
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: We want to know where you land on this. I

1015
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: think now the story of Jack Parsons and his legacy

1016
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: is a little more apparent in the public sphere. It's

1017
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: more common knowledge. But do you feel that as a society,

1018
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 1: our norms limit our ability to innovate technologically, you know

1019
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like like the US government, and this

1020
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: may apply. This surely applies to other governments as well.

1021
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: The US government in the past had a very difficult

1022
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: time hiring quality hackers because of their affinity for drugs.

1023
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: And you know, they were brilliant minds, brilliant computer people,

1024
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: but they didn't want to stop smoking weed or stop

1025
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, doing whatever drug they do. And they have

1026
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: to be clean to pass the security clearance.

1027
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fascinating.

1028
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: So eventually they, I believe in many cases, eventually the

1029
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: US government just folded and made exceptions to the rule.

1030
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: Do you think those exceptions should exist? Let us know.

1031
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, check out

1032
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: our community page. Here's where it gets crazy, where there

1033
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: are tons of fascinating conversations in the mean game is

1034
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: a double plus good.

1035
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 2: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you

1036
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can

1037
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 2: get into contact with us in a number of different ways.

1038
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: One of the best is to give us a call.

1039
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. If you

1040
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you can send us a

1041
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

1042
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1043
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1044
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1045
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.