Speaker 1: This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come
Speaker 1: and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually
Speaker 1: it's about an hour and a half and I don't
Speaker 1: have an opener because these guys cost money. But what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway,
Speaker 1: Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire
Speaker 1: Tour in your region. Tickets our own sale now, and
Speaker 1: we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates,
Speaker 1: go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you
Speaker 1: on the road, my DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson.
Speaker 1: The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to
Speaker 1: interesting people about what brings them happiness. Hello, my DearS,
Speaker 1: Now look for my money. One of the best shows
Speaker 1: on TV right now is the show called Hacks, which
Speaker 1: is on HBO or Max or whatever they call it now.
Speaker 1: But it's a great show. It's co created by my
Speaker 1: guest today. It was a fascinating a very very clever
Speaker 1: individual by the name of James Statsky. Enjoy. You see,
Speaker 1: that's how they're doing TV. You just go five four
Speaker 1: three two, and then you don't see anything else in
Speaker 1: the one I have works on TV in ages though
Speaker 1: you still work in DV Do they still do that?
Speaker 1: Oh no, you do single cameras, so.
Speaker 2: I do single camera. But so there's no there's no countdown.
Speaker 3: But I'm trying to remember because I started in Late Night,
Speaker 3: and I think we had a countdown.
Speaker 2: I think we had the five four three two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were on Jimmy's Chauffeur. That was your first gig,
Speaker 1: wasn't it that.
Speaker 2: That was my first job.
Speaker 3: That was my first writing job, Late Night with Jimmy
Speaker 3: Fallon back in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: So you were You were doing that at the same
Speaker 1: time I was doing yeah late night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're both. Did you child from Late Night? I
Speaker 2: did watch your show, Yes, of course.
Speaker 3: Yes, you are an excellent interviewer, which I'm sure you've
Speaker 3: been told many times over the years.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I feel like that it is an odd,
Speaker 1: weird skill. Did you ever see the movie Demolition Man.
Speaker 1: It's one of Sandra Bullok's early movies.
Speaker 2: No, I never did.
Speaker 1: There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition Man, and I
Speaker 1: call it Sandra Bulok movie. He's a Sylvester stallone movie
Speaker 1: and he's Sylvester Stone and Wesley Snipes and he gets
Speaker 1: cryogenically frozen and then has to catch a criminal in
Speaker 1: the future. A lot of movies were like that back
Speaker 1: in the day. During his cryogenics, he the computer implanted
Speaker 1: in his head that he knew how to knit. It
Speaker 1: was a joke in the film, and he was mystified
Speaker 1: by that. And that's like my skills for interviewing. I
Speaker 1: have no idea where I came about that. I certainly
Speaker 1: didn't study for it or have I any academic training,
Speaker 1: but I feel like I can do it.
Speaker 2: I think you're right, Yeah, you definitely can't.
Speaker 3: Did you find, like before you became a host that
Speaker 3: like in conversations, like you're good at like being interested
Speaker 3: in people and asking them questions like did it feel
Speaker 3: natural visa viu moving through the world?
Speaker 1: That kind of was a skill. No, not at all.
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm quite misanthropic. I am. I'm quite shy,
Speaker 1: and but aggressively shy. So I don't just like go
Speaker 1: oh oh, I'm like we want to go keep away
Speaker 1: from me? That kind of shy, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I suspect, you know, I write a lot, and I
Speaker 1: know that that is what you do a lot of
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people who write are
Speaker 1: quite like that. There are you like that. I'm like
Speaker 1: that too.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty like one on one I really like to
Speaker 2: connect with the person.
Speaker 3: But if I'm like at a party, I'm definitely going
Speaker 3: to be the person probably talking the least and a
Speaker 3: little bit quiet, which sometimes comes off as like standoffish,
Speaker 3: and people think you're like not the friendliest, but it's
Speaker 3: it's not that it at all.
Speaker 2: It's not. It's more that I am, yeah, just kind
Speaker 2: of more internal.
Speaker 1: I think we should speak out against parties. I think
Speaker 1: the parties are being forced on as by people who
Speaker 1: like parties. But yeah, I really like parties that much.
Speaker 1: A small group of people is all right, go out
Speaker 1: for there, maybe go and see something.
Speaker 3: But sure, sure I like a party, but there's it's
Speaker 3: brutal when you are not in the mood for one
Speaker 3: and you have to go.
Speaker 2: That is that's one of life's worst situations to be in.
Speaker 1: I can't think of the last time I was in
Speaker 1: the mood for a party, or even two parties. But
Speaker 1: let me just say this though, I have to say this,
Speaker 1: right now, which is congratulations on the success of Hacks
Speaker 1: and thanks. I think just someone who's it's very rare,
Speaker 1: like you know, like when people cops, when they watch
Speaker 1: cop shows, go a, that's not what it's really like
Speaker 1: being a call. Yeah, well I bore attacks now like
Speaker 1: as exactly what it's like, as exactly thank.
Speaker 3: You, that is exactly just like that is such a
Speaker 3: lovely compliment, and it means so much coming from you,
Speaker 3: you know, like when we started making the show, we
Speaker 3: were like, this is a horrible tightrope walk we're doing,
Speaker 3: which is to portray a comedy portraying comedians and the
Speaker 3: life of a comedian. And we always said like if
Speaker 3: real stand ups and now late night hosts like yourself
Speaker 3: can watch it and feel like it is capturing something real,
Speaker 3: will have you know, kind of cleared that this really
Speaker 3: high bar we said for ourselves.
Speaker 2: So it really means a lot to hear that from you.
Speaker 1: Well so much so. The truth of it is this
Speaker 1: that the relationship between the two main protagonists and Hikes,
Speaker 1: it's so similar to a relationship that I have with
Speaker 1: a guy who is now writes for me all the time.
Speaker 1: Oh ah, who was on my show. I know if
Speaker 1: you remember, he stopped off as an intern and he
Speaker 1: became the front end of the pantomime Horse used to
Speaker 1: dance around. Well, now he writes all the time. He
Speaker 1: produces for Netflix and stuff like that, and he writes
Speaker 1: for me. Joe Bolter is Joe Bolter?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: Yeah right? And Joe and I so much. So. When
Speaker 1: I saw the first season of Hacks, I called Joe
Speaker 1: and I said, are you in the writer's room on
Speaker 1: that show?
Speaker 3: You?
Speaker 1: Are you being doing stuff on that show? And he
Speaker 1: said no, he said, but I've seen it and it's spooky.
Speaker 1: There are episodes there was I think it was the
Speaker 1: first season, could have been the second. You'll know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure when Debra says, we have to go to Vegas,
Speaker 1: and they go to Vegas and then they you know,
Speaker 1: they go in a plane somewhere and they come back
Speaker 1: and mix it up with my own life. I said
Speaker 1: to Joe once, I'm doing a show in Vegas, and
Speaker 1: he said, I can't come. I have to see my parents.
Speaker 1: I said, we'll be back by ten o'clock. And when
Speaker 1: I took him to Van Night's Airport and we got
Speaker 1: on this plane and we go out to the Las
Speaker 1: Vegas and we did the show, we came back. It
Speaker 1: was all done in two hours, three hours maybe, and
Speaker 1: if there was something like that in Hacks And he
Speaker 1: was like, it's so the same, right down to our
Speaker 1: argument about comedy. When I would be very cranky about,
Speaker 1: you know, the new rules of comedy, and he would say,
Speaker 1: there are no new rules of comedy. You just have
Speaker 1: to be funny, which I think is possibly true. There
Speaker 1: was a time there when I was very worried about
Speaker 1: the dogma of the next generation of comedy, but I'm
Speaker 1: not anymore. I think it's really funny.
Speaker 3: You were worried because you felt like we were treading
Speaker 3: into a place where we weren't, Like comedy wasn't being
Speaker 3: valued or.
Speaker 2: What was it that was worrying you.
Speaker 1: I think more it was about the idea. And you've
Speaker 1: had Debra say these words like it's great to see
Speaker 1: a character where you go, yes, yes, that's right, you know,
Speaker 1: and then you realize, wait, this is the cranky old lady,
Speaker 1: myocracy old lady. Right, I kind of have a little
Speaker 1: bit yeah, but it's the idea that I think for
Speaker 1: a while, I don't believe this anymore, but I did
Speaker 1: for a while there think that they're saying, or the
Speaker 1: young people are saying, that certain areas of comedy are
Speaker 1: off limits and you can't make jokes about that, which
Speaker 1: I don't believe. I believe that you must be able
Speaker 1: to make jokes about whatever you can make funny. It's
Speaker 1: not like there are taboo subjects. I think that that.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's bad jokes, but I think tabli yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, and that. But also the retrogression look
Speaker 1: at material that you had done before attitudes changed, and
Speaker 1: picking up on that was a very weird thing because like, well,
Speaker 1: I did that joke ten years ago, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Do it now, you know, right, right, And that's very
Speaker 3: much so, you know, we did that last season when
Speaker 3: Deborah goes back to her alma mater college and is
Speaker 3: taken to task by the students there for old material,
Speaker 3: and we very much wanted to have this exact conversation
Speaker 3: that you're saying and kind of talk about, Yes, times change,
Speaker 3: and you know, there's things that we were joking about
Speaker 3: at the time and now we have moved on and
Speaker 3: understand as a society that that was not right. And
Speaker 3: you know, it's a conversation between feeling what Debora feels
Speaker 3: is she feels very like persecuted in that moment, and
Speaker 3: she's like, but I've always tried to be on the
Speaker 3: right side of history. I just had these jokes that
Speaker 3: at the time went right, and Ava was sort of
Speaker 3: saying yes. And it's also the right of people who
Speaker 3: hear those jokes down to say like this is this
Speaker 3: is painful and this was not great, and there's an understanding.
Speaker 3: Like you know, one thing we're always trying to do
Speaker 3: with the show is have each character be both right
Speaker 3: and wrong, because it's amazing. It's way more interesting to
Speaker 3: see a conversation between two people where they're both right
Speaker 3: and wrong, versus like if Deborah was just wholly in
Speaker 3: the wrong, it's less of an interesting conversation. So that one,
Speaker 3: in particular, was you know, really important for us to
Speaker 3: do because that is such a conversation in comedy these days.
Speaker 2: Like you're saying, it's funny.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about it as well, And what what
Speaker 1: I very much like about the portrayal of Debra is
Speaker 1: that it's unapologetic. It's it's very kind of she's still funny,
Speaker 1: you know, which I love that the idea of it,
Speaker 1: did you have this because I mean, it seems funny
Speaker 1: to say this to you, but you you're kind of
Speaker 1: you get to the point of veteran status. Now I've
Speaker 1: been doing it for a while. I know it's weird
Speaker 1: how fast it happens. As well, it is like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I know it's great.
Speaker 3: Well talking about like starting on you know, Fallen was
Speaker 3: my first job and I was twenty for twenty five
Speaker 3: years old when I got that job, and like now
Speaker 3: I've been doing it now, I'm thirty nine, Like I've
Speaker 3: been doing it for a decade and a half, and
Speaker 3: it feels crazy, like you're saying, because I still feel
Speaker 3: like that kid who started in dirty rock, like writing
Speaker 3: monologue jokes for Jimmy.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: It's it's wild to kind of have had the luck
Speaker 3: that I've had in this career and gotten to move
Speaker 3: from late night to now making Hacks and all the
Speaker 3: shows I've been lucky enough to work on in between.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you worked in the Good Place as well,
Speaker 1: which was another kind of groundbreaker, is another real wonderful show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Good Place.
Speaker 3: You know, I value my time on that show so
Speaker 3: much and make sure who created that, you know, did
Speaker 3: something so brilliant with that show, which was it was
Speaker 3: a network sitcom, but it was so original in its
Speaker 3: idea and its conception and what we were trying to
Speaker 3: do with the stories we were trying to do.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I feel really lucky to have to
Speaker 2: have worked on that.
Speaker 1: Hello, this is Greig Ferguson and I want to let
Speaker 1: you know I have a brand new stand up comedy
Speaker 1: special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy,
Speaker 1: and I would be so happy if you checked it out.
Speaker 1: To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel
Speaker 1: at the Craig Ferguson Show and is this right there?
Speaker 1: Just click it and play it and it's free. I
Speaker 1: can't look. I'm not going to come around you, husband
Speaker 1: and show you how to do it. If you can't
Speaker 1: do it, then you can have it. But if you
Speaker 1: can figure it out, it's yours, the three of you
Speaker 1: that came up with hacks. Therese you and remind me
Speaker 1: Paul W.
Speaker 2: Dwan's and Lucianello.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, And did you all come up together? Is
Speaker 1: that something that? Do you all know each other earlier?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: It was came organically from that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we basically all met doing like sketch and improv
Speaker 3: and stand up in New York City. So back in
Speaker 3: like Lucci and I my senior year at NYU, I
Speaker 3: was in this sketch group that was kind of an
Speaker 3: offshoot of the Upright Citizens Brigade theater, and Lucci and
Speaker 3: I were the only girls in the sketch group, and
Speaker 3: we kind of instantly gravitated towards each other in our
Speaker 3: senses of humor. And I really loved her and thought
Speaker 3: she was so so talented. And then she introduced me
Speaker 3: to Paul, and they had been doing sketches as a
Speaker 3: two man group and making things and Paul, you know
Speaker 3: again same just instantly was like, Oh, these are the
Speaker 3: funniest people, and just had a real instant kinship and
Speaker 3: knew that I wanted to work with them.
Speaker 1: Is it something that still exists? Do you make each
Speaker 1: other laugh in the writer's room still? We do? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we do.
Speaker 2: You know, we kind of show Oh thanks, yeah, we really.
Speaker 3: You know, when we started the show, we made a
Speaker 3: promise to ourselves that we wouldn't ever let it interfere
Speaker 3: with our friendship, but we would always try to like
Speaker 3: protect that first and always kind of honor the fact
Speaker 3: that this started because we just genuinely loved making each
Speaker 3: other laugh and try to hold on to that as
Speaker 3: we move through the process. And I think that like
Speaker 3: that is only proven more and more true as we've
Speaker 3: gone on, because as the show has been successful, and
Speaker 3: we've been lucky to have this show be successful, like,
Speaker 3: the bigger it gets, you actually kind of can't take
Speaker 3: it all in and think about that if you start
Speaker 3: thinking about doing it for a review or doing it
Speaker 3: for an award, it just kind of can. It can
Speaker 3: be overwhelming and eat away at you. And so I
Speaker 3: think even the bigger the show has gotten, the more
Speaker 3: wheeling into trying to just rely on like does Paul
Speaker 3: think this good? Does Lucia think this is good? And
Speaker 3: then expanding it out through there like do our writers
Speaker 3: think this is good? And the other people who work
Speaker 3: in the show thing is good? And trying to keep
Speaker 3: it concentrated like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's an interesting thing because the idea of success
Speaker 1: is such an odd kind of ingredient creatively, I think
Speaker 1: it does very odd things to creative people. It does
Speaker 1: odd things to anyone. Yeah, but if you add success
Speaker 1: and fame and then there is this thing. I remember
Speaker 1: the example I will give you is this is that
Speaker 1: when I started in late night, people immediately began ask
Speaker 1: me because I was working for David Letterman behind a
Speaker 1: worldwide pants and Dave was doing the eleven thirty show
Speaker 1: and I was doing twelve thirty. And immediately people started saying,
Speaker 1: are you going to take over from Dave? Like before
Speaker 1: I even started, right, And I said, no, I have
Speaker 1: no interest in that, that's not my thing, and they they,
Speaker 1: and also, I'm just starting this job. And it almost
Speaker 1: seems like in the world of show business. I don't
Speaker 1: gonna say, Hollywood, but it's so much kind of not
Speaker 1: that anymore. But in the world of show business, it
Speaker 1: seems to me people used to say, what have you
Speaker 1: done lately? Now it seems to be it's what are
Speaker 1: you doing next? Well, you haven't done, Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: more important.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I used to It's so interesting you bring this
Speaker 3: up because I used to think this all the time,
Speaker 3: because when I was lucky enough to be a staff
Speaker 3: writer on like Parks and Recreation or The Good Place
Speaker 3: or broad City, people would always say, but when are
Speaker 3: you going to do your own show? But you want
Speaker 3: to run your own show, right, And of course I
Speaker 3: did eventually go on to do that with Hucks. But
Speaker 3: it was such an interesting thing that people kind of
Speaker 3: put you on this ladder, even if you yourself are
Speaker 3: not thinking that way. And it's very much so like,
Speaker 3: but what's the next thing, what's the next thing? Which
Speaker 3: is really counterintuitive to your process as an artist because
Speaker 3: you really are just trying to stay present and focus
Speaker 3: on making the thing you're doing in that moment good.
Speaker 1: Well it's and also it's an odd thing because I
Speaker 1: get it's ten years since I left Late Night, right,
Speaker 1: and people say to me, you know, they still say
Speaker 1: less so now because they're all dead to the people
Speaker 1: who remember that I was on TV. But the well
Speaker 1: people will say why did you leave? And I said, look,
Speaker 1: it's mental health. It's like this if I don't know
Speaker 1: how other people deal with it. But if I walk
Speaker 1: into a building every day, every five days a week,
Speaker 1: and there are pictures of me everywhere, but everywhere I
Speaker 1: go with those giant pictures of me, and then there's
Speaker 1: all the stationary all the paper has my name on it,
Speaker 1: and my name is everywhere, and there's me everywhere, and
Speaker 1: there's a hundred fifty people in the building and all
Speaker 1: they are doing is making sure I am in a
Speaker 1: good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news,
Speaker 1: know what. They want me to be good for the show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes you fucking crazy, Dan.
Speaker 2: I know that's crazy.
Speaker 3: It's really wild because you're one of like ten people
Speaker 3: right that I could talk to about this because I
Speaker 3: lived on the other side of that, like when I
Speaker 3: started fell in and this was not you know, Jimmy
Speaker 3: didn't say to say this.
Speaker 2: This was coming from someone who worked for him.
Speaker 3: He said, fifty percent of this job is writing good
Speaker 3: jokes and fifty percent is being friends with Jimmy. That
Speaker 3: was like, that was the attitude that people around you had.
Speaker 3: And I'm sure, as you're saying, you didn't even put
Speaker 3: that out there. You didn't come in and say I
Speaker 3: need everything to revolve around me and everybody needs to
Speaker 3: be doing all these things to make me happy.
Speaker 1: But it happens.
Speaker 3: It's just what it does when there is a central
Speaker 3: figure at the head of a show that well, I
Speaker 3: don't know, it's kind of this like almost like it's
Speaker 3: like a king in the kingdom, like all the people
Speaker 3: in the court doing all these machinations to like make
Speaker 3: him happy. But then also kind of like it turns
Speaker 3: into people being cut throat with each other because everybody's
Speaker 3: trying to protect this one person and their.
Speaker 1: Access to that person. And it occurs to you, this
Speaker 1: is what I'm interested because in the next season, you're
Speaker 1: putting Debra in that position. You're putting Debora into being
Speaker 1: a late night host, which I love, and I want
Speaker 1: to get to that because it's very important thing. I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about that. But the idea
Speaker 1: of this thing occurs. I've once heard about David Letterman
Speaker 1: before I was ever on the show, before I was
Speaker 1: ever on Dave's show, somebody had said, oh, no, you're
Speaker 1: not allowed to look Dave directly in the eye. You
Speaker 1: must correctly, and I if you walk down recorder, you
Speaker 1: have to look away. And I was like, really, And then,
Speaker 1: you know, I've since met David's quite a lot. And
Speaker 1: if I didn't look up in the eye, think I
Speaker 1: was weird. You know, Yeah, I think he thinks I'm
Speaker 1: weird anyway. But the idea of that was so odd
Speaker 1: to me, and I heard that. Then I heard about
Speaker 1: Jennifer Lopez. For some reason, she was against Donna. It
Speaker 1: wasn't even my show. She was in the building and
Speaker 1: someone said, don't look at her directly, and it was
Speaker 1: always this same phrase, don't look at that directly in
Speaker 1: the eye. Oh my god, I've never heard that. And
Speaker 1: then I heard that about five different people. And then
Speaker 1: I heard that about myself. Oh no way, yeah, somebody said,
Speaker 1: oh I heard that, some one of an old friend
Speaker 1: of a writer who was you know who I brought
Speaker 1: into the show, who's an old friend of mine from
Speaker 1: the old Country, and he was like, what's this. Don't
Speaker 1: look you directly in the eye. Shit. It was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Right, And that must be really crazy to be a
Speaker 2: public crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes you crazy. I could. When Seth Meyers started,
Speaker 1: he called me up and he said, I'm very excited
Speaker 1: and he was just phoning all the other hosts and
Speaker 1: I said, it'll make you crazy sense he said, I
Speaker 1: don't think it will. I don't think it will. I
Speaker 1: saw him at Rangers game maybe about a few or
Speaker 1: four months ago, and I don't think it has made
Speaker 1: him crazy. I think he's okay.
Speaker 2: I think that if he I think is a rare guy. That, yeah,
Speaker 2: he seems because I know something he seems right. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: totally but like.
Speaker 3: That is something with this season that we wanted to
Speaker 3: pay homage to the fact that late night is such
Speaker 3: a grind, and I don't think people totally realize, Like
Speaker 3: for the host of a late night show, it's kind
Speaker 3: of like, I think it's the hardest job you can
Speaker 3: have while also being super famous, because it is such
Speaker 3: a grind.
Speaker 2: It's five days a week.
Speaker 3: It is like relentless and like you're saying everything it
Speaker 3: almost sounds like you'd be nice in some ways, like oh,
Speaker 3: everything revolves around you and everyone's trying to make you happy,
Speaker 3: but like you're saying that in itself can become its
Speaker 3: own kind of prison and wrong.
Speaker 1: It's great for about a month, yes, yes, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you're like, wait a minut it. You had a
Speaker 1: friend who was a cop in Bakersfield and he gave
Speaker 1: it up and he said, I hate being a cop
Speaker 1: because everybody lies to you all the time. I said,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what it's like being a late night hosts
Speaker 1: you and even if they're not, you think they are.
Speaker 1: You know, it's very weird.
Speaker 2: Do you ever miss it?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I miss sometimes the fun I had on stage because
Speaker 1: the people that I worked with on stage Josh Robert Thompson,
Speaker 1: who did the Skeleton Robot and my show. I had
Speaker 1: a very small crew of performers and we were kind
Speaker 1: of a rep. It wasn't even a rep. It was
Speaker 1: just like it was like half a dozen different people
Speaker 1: and they would cycle through. And I missed that kind
Speaker 1: of almost like upright Citizens Brigade kind of Groundland's vibe.
Speaker 1: I missed the team, but I don't miss I don't
Speaker 1: miss fucking television executives. And I think that the new
Speaker 1: democratic kind of form of making content. I like the
Speaker 1: idea of being able to speak directly to the audience
Speaker 1: because that's what stand up is and I kind of
Speaker 1: like that. And I'm kind of, I mean, an admiration
Speaker 1: of you and others in your position who can exist
Speaker 1: in the world of television because you are an artist
Speaker 1: and you create art. But what a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't see is the meetings that you're having with people
Speaker 1: who are extremely difficult for me to deal with. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not their fault, it's just we see the world
Speaker 1: different and I have a very hard time with it.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you'll like this season quite a bit, then,
Speaker 3: because this season is really focusing on that intersection of
Speaker 3: art and commerce and how difficult it can be, and
Speaker 3: also just you know, even since you've left Late Night,
Speaker 3: how even I think more difficult called it's gotten with
Speaker 3: the tremendous pressure on each individual show and property to
Speaker 3: like expand beyond. You know, it's not just enough to
Speaker 3: just be one singular show and get decent ratings, Like
Speaker 3: you're saying, content and expanding, you know, all of that,
Speaker 3: Like all of that comes into play now in a
Speaker 3: way that it feels like there's there's a heavier hand
Speaker 3: on like perhaps the commerce side.
Speaker 2: Of it that makes it even more difficult. And not
Speaker 2: our executives.
Speaker 3: We have been really lucky and that they're so wonderful
Speaker 3: at HBO, and they foster creativity and they're so supportive.
Speaker 3: But I think Late Night in particulars and this's really,
Speaker 3: as has been discussed many times, a very interesting moment.
Speaker 1: It is an odd thing. And I think while I
Speaker 1: was looking at why I'm excited to see the new
Speaker 1: season because Debra, I thought, correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean, you created the character. But I always thought
Speaker 1: one of the archetypes for Therera would be Joan Revers
Speaker 1: that I thought that I don't know. If you know
Speaker 1: the story about Joan Rivers in Late Night and how
Speaker 1: poorly she was treated when she got her own show,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you do. Yeah, And I always thought that's
Speaker 1: really fucking unfair what happened.
Speaker 2: Now I know it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3: I know, yeah, yes, we you know, there's many people
Speaker 3: that Debra's and and malcolmission of and certainly Droan is
Speaker 3: one of them that we talked about a lot and
Speaker 3: researched a lot. And yeah, she got such a raw
Speaker 3: deal with with the Tonight Show and being banned from
Speaker 3: it and then her show.
Speaker 2: That's really it's.
Speaker 1: Heartbreaking because she had the audacity to do her own show, Yeah, right.
Speaker 3: Which is such a you have to think like anybody
Speaker 3: would understand someone doing that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean it seems like maybe now
Speaker 1: I feel like in show business. One of the things
Speaker 1: I always loved about show business, and I really believe this,
Speaker 1: there's room for everybody, Like everybody doesn't really matter, you
Speaker 1: know it. I know it feels like I think, particularly
Speaker 1: when you're young, when everybody's competitive and everyone's trying make
Speaker 1: their bones, that you feel like if they're getting success,
Speaker 1: then somehow I'm going to there's a lovely scene of
Speaker 1: that actually in the first scene of Hacks, when they
Speaker 1: meet in the line for that show in Vegas and
Speaker 1: they're talking about, you know, other people who are doing
Speaker 1: really well. Oh yeah, I love that. So true.
Speaker 3: There's this like kind of thing that when you're young,
Speaker 3: you feel like someone's success is your failure. And I remember,
Speaker 3: I remember when I started writing and was young and
Speaker 3: doing it. I really had to like train myself out
Speaker 3: of that way of thinking because it's so kind of negative.
Speaker 3: I'm glad that I'm at a point in my career
Speaker 3: where I don't.
Speaker 1: Well, I think. I think a bit of success will
Speaker 1: help you get rid of it as well, I think.
Speaker 3: But I hope I got I think I got rid
Speaker 3: of it also before before, like yesterday, I think.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, it is true. It's really hard, especially
Speaker 2: that career isn't where you want.
Speaker 4: It to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That gore Vidal's which is it's not enough that I succeed,
Speaker 1: it's that my friends have to fail. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of I mean, you come from
Speaker 3: the stand up world, which I feel like is even
Speaker 3: maybe a little more cut throat that way than an
Speaker 3: improvert sketch where I came from. That's a lot of
Speaker 3: still stand ups takes. I think, Oh yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: I although I have to say I had a similar
Speaker 1: conversation with Bill Hayder about this because I asked them
Speaker 1: about when he was on Saturday Night Live, and he
Speaker 1: took a similar route to you in a way that
Speaker 1: you know, he came out and started, you know, and
Speaker 1: making Barry and running the show. And I said, were
Speaker 1: you very competitive when you were all working together as
Speaker 1: Saturday Live? And he said, no, we actually wearn't. We
Speaker 1: were quite It was quite collegiate, he said. But I
Speaker 1: heard about it from the old the previous cast, and
Speaker 1: he said, and he thinks it might be a generational thing,
Speaker 1: which might be a bit like that as well. I
Speaker 1: think for all the kind of noise that people my
Speaker 1: age make about people your age, I think that actually
Speaker 1: younger people are kind of a bit better with each other.
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 3: I think something I noticed in younger comedians, even the
Speaker 3: ones that are super driven, there is less I think
Speaker 3: people have evolved a bit out of the mentality that
Speaker 3: someone else needs to fail for you to succeed. Like, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I do think that hopefully there's a better kind of
Speaker 3: collective mindset around that, I.
Speaker 1: Guess it comes down to the individual. So when Debra
Speaker 1: go was into late night in this season, so I'm actually,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if you've gotted this. I'm
Speaker 1: actually a huge fan of this show. I mean really,
Speaker 1: it's there are shows that I like, Yeah, your show,
Speaker 1: the first three seasons of The Righteous Gemstones, and then
Speaker 1: and then I don't know, I'm going back.
Speaker 3: To maybe okay, you're going to go into a long list,
Speaker 3: but that it ended there and then you're back to
Speaker 3: Soprano's a show.
Speaker 1: From and the Wire.
Speaker 4: I mean, you're mash Yeah, you know what was the
Speaker 4: the the Adams Family, you know, the original cash you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that means that means a lot coming from you,
Speaker 3: and I'm I am so curious. And we have been
Speaker 3: lucky enough to hear from other late night hosts that
Speaker 3: they liked the show. I mean, watching this season, I
Speaker 3: hope it doesn't give you PTSD because it is firmly
Speaker 3: in the world in which you lived, and you're one
Speaker 3: of the only people on earth.
Speaker 2: That has quite this experience.
Speaker 1: I know, it's funny. I had a conversation with Jimmy
Speaker 1: Kimmel a few years ago when he said, you know,
Speaker 1: we this was actually before I left. It was just
Speaker 1: as I was. He said, you know, we should all
Speaker 1: kind of get together me, you, j Alas and stuff
Speaker 1: and have a dinner or something, because there are so
Speaker 1: few people that have done this, And I was like, nah,
Speaker 1: I want to do that.
Speaker 2: Why why do you say now?
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that I know that
Speaker 1: Dave would say the same thing. But what's interesting is
Speaker 1: I feel much more sanguine and affectionate towards late night
Speaker 1: now that I don't do it got it, And I
Speaker 1: know that Dave is in a very similar place with it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I feel like like once I went diving with sharks
Speaker 1: in the Bahamas, and I'm really glad I did it.
Speaker 1: I'm never fucking doing it again. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: That's kind of how I feel about it. It has
Speaker 1: a I'm really glad that I'm proud of what we did,
Speaker 1: but I I'm glad you're.
Speaker 2: Happy you got out of the world when you did.
Speaker 1: I am. I am happy I get out of the water.
Speaker 1: I am happy to get out of it. And so
Speaker 1: what happens with hacked, because you're at the point now
Speaker 1: if you're starting season four. A lot of what you're
Speaker 1: doing now, if my timeline is correct, and what it's
Speaker 1: like to be in charge of an operation in show business,
Speaker 1: A lot of what you're doing now will involve being HR.
Speaker 2: Well it's not HR, but it certainly is.
Speaker 3: And I have discussed this before. The interesting thing about
Speaker 3: show running is you start as a writer. You come
Speaker 3: up as a writer, you're like, I like writing TV.
Speaker 3: It's something I feel like I'm good at and I
Speaker 3: want to pursue. And then once you get your own show,
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're in charge of a two
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty person corporation and there's a skill set
Speaker 3: of show running that is completely different from the skill
Speaker 3: set of writing comedy. And that has been a real
Speaker 3: learning experience over the last you know, four or five
Speaker 3: years now, Propology and myself, because you're right that there's
Speaker 3: just a lot of things that you have to deal
Speaker 3: with that you never envision having to deal with when
Speaker 3: you're just unstabed.
Speaker 1: People's problems and their feelings about that, I know, it's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, yeah, and like, you know, when if
Speaker 1: someone isn't doing like The thing I find very challenging
Speaker 1: is knowing, you know, if someone isn't doing a great
Speaker 1: job or it's not a great fit, like the letting
Speaker 1: go of someone, which you know, we have luckily knock
Speaker 1: on Wood haven't had to do a lot, but that
Speaker 1: that's really difficult to me because it's very hard to
Speaker 1: divorce the fact that this is a human being and
Speaker 1: this is their life and their livelihood.
Speaker 3: And I find that to be I've really had to
Speaker 3: do work around that because it's real. It's difficult.
Speaker 1: Also, you will be alienated from the other side because
Speaker 1: you become a resource to other people and you become
Speaker 1: if you're the boss you start, you go from that
Speaker 1: possession of being scrappy writer for Jimmy Fallen to you know,
Speaker 1: boss lady in charge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: Did you have any I mean, I'm friendly with Marta Kaufman,
Speaker 1: who's you know, is your rat friends and yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: such great shows and she seems to me to be
Speaker 1: someone who's kept her humanity through the process. Did you
Speaker 1: do you have a mentor for that? Did you talk
Speaker 1: to anyone? Was there anyone that you could Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, I was really lucky and
Speaker 3: that I came up on Mike Sure shows so Parks
Speaker 3: and rec and The Good Place were created by Mike Sure,
Speaker 3: and Mike is Mike is a really excellent boss in
Speaker 3: that he's He's just a genuinely good, deeply good person.
Speaker 2: And so that I think helped me. I had a
Speaker 2: good role model for running a room in terms of that.
Speaker 3: And then I think though it is that like it's
Speaker 3: a it's a good way to put it, like keeping
Speaker 3: your humanity in staf in check with your humanity, because
Speaker 3: I think you can get so some people get so
Speaker 3: myopic and focused on the end goal of the show
Speaker 3: or the you know, and you do you have to
Speaker 3: do that. You have to be protecting the show and
Speaker 3: protecting your work, but you also do need to stay
Speaker 3: in touch with your humanity and that these are human
Speaker 3: beings that you're working with. So it is something that's
Speaker 3: a difficult part of it because it's exactly in play
Speaker 3: in you is the intersection of art and commerce. You're
Speaker 3: trying to stay creative and vulnerable to create something real
Speaker 3: and funny and truthful, but you're also having to be
Speaker 3: management and make some decisions along the way that maybe
Speaker 3: emotion doesn't serve you as well. And so it's a
Speaker 3: really interesting thing to balance, and I hope over the
Speaker 3: years I've only gotten better at it because it's a
Speaker 3: difficult thing.
Speaker 1: It is a difficult thing, and it isn't ultimately I think.
Speaker 1: I think for me, I had to make a choice,
Speaker 1: but I gotta go ye on this, And I think
Speaker 1: that what I think is fascinating about it is that
Speaker 1: the people I know who have gone through your the
Speaker 1: probably like going through a showrunner's type life. You know,
Speaker 1: if you look at well, I suppose a great archetype
Speaker 1: for it would be Larry David. Yes, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: going to that if I look at I mean, I
Speaker 1: always liked Seinfeld. Who didn't like Seinfeld? But having watched
Speaker 1: Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld is a much better show. It's
Speaker 1: a much better show knowing who Larry is and what
Speaker 1: Larry is and seeing him in this show.
Speaker 2: Seeing him injury.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of fascinating. And I
Speaker 1: wonder do you have any is there any I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you're very busy and you're very inside this
Speaker 1: world and all that, but is there any kind of
Speaker 1: point where you think that performances for you or moving
Speaker 1: in that direction is something that you would want to explore.
Speaker 3: No, I really, I really am not a performer, and
Speaker 3: I do not not that I like I've been.
Speaker 2: I've acted in things here and there, but it's not.
Speaker 2: It doesn't light me up. It doesn't.
Speaker 3: I don't get the kind of fulfillment that other people
Speaker 3: get from it. I just really don't. I don't feel
Speaker 3: comfortable doing it. And and I think one thing you're
Speaker 3: speaking to about when you said like I had to
Speaker 3: get out and the management and the pressure is like,
Speaker 3: I think one thing that has really saved me and
Speaker 3: made sure running tolerable is that I'm never doing it alone.
Speaker 3: I'm doing it with Polachia, and I never feel alone.
Speaker 3: And I say this all the time, like I could
Speaker 3: not show Run alone. I would feel I would go
Speaker 3: crazy if I felt like I didn't have two people
Speaker 3: that were in it with me and fully understanding the
Speaker 3: experience of what we're what we're doing. So I also wonder, like,
Speaker 3: was that a difficult part of it for you? Did
Speaker 3: you feel? I mean, like you said, it's on the
Speaker 3: door and your name on the stationary, like it was
Speaker 3: really all about you, and that probably felt really like solitary.
Speaker 1: I think I think for a personality like mine, which
Speaker 1: is kind of like, you know, I'm kind of alcoholic
Speaker 1: addict that I know. I feel like I'm the piece
Speaker 1: of ship at the center of the universe, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like a conflicting narcissism and
Speaker 1: self hatred and stuff that I think for a personality
Speaker 1: like mine, it's highly toxic. I think for somebody like
Speaker 1: I think Seth is like Tom Bombadill with that ship,
Speaker 1: it just it just doesn't fucking the ring just has
Speaker 1: no power over them. He's like, I can do it.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, don't you go like
Speaker 1: I was like, ah, my precious.
Speaker 3: He's like, no, it's possible that, like demons, you have,
Speaker 3: the job will draw those out.
Speaker 1: And I think success does that. I think I think
Speaker 1: success nip for for demons. I think that for whatever
Speaker 1: darkness you have. And Jan, my dear, who you know,
Speaker 1: my new best friend. I have to tell you, I
Speaker 1: don't believe for a second that someone that can write
Speaker 1: like you right doesn't have fucking demons.
Speaker 2: So they definitely I definitely have demons, for sure. I
Speaker 2: have demons.
Speaker 1: Do you find them activated by I mean, do you
Speaker 1: find them activated by busyness and success?
Speaker 2: And yeah, well, I kind of mine come from.
Speaker 3: I had a very specific upbringing where my parents it
Speaker 3: was a very difficult household. There were a lot of fighting,
Speaker 3: a lot of like my mom was not mentally well.
Speaker 3: It was a chaotic upbringing for sure. And I think
Speaker 3: what's interesting is my demons. I deal with my demons
Speaker 3: in the quest for success. Like in I was an
Speaker 3: only child and so I was very much so alone
Speaker 3: in that environment, and in my way of coping was
Speaker 3: to really hone in on school and academics, and I
Speaker 3: was like, I'm going to be the best student I
Speaker 3: can because I saw it as a life raft. I
Speaker 3: saw it as a thing that would get me out
Speaker 3: of that situation. And I just as easily could have
Speaker 3: seen drugs or alcohol as that. I just, for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: school and work and that was my thing that was
Speaker 3: getting me out. But in that same way, it's a
Speaker 3: coping mechanism, and I've had to also work with the
Speaker 3: balance of it made me addicted to work, it made
Speaker 3: me addicted to not to success for the sake of success,
Speaker 3: the way some people are like, oh, I just want
Speaker 3: to be successful because I want to see my name
Speaker 3: on deadline or whatever. It's more it's the demons thing.
Speaker 3: It's a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2: I still feel I need it to get out.
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. What you're saying makes perfect sense,
Speaker 1: because the idea if you use the word chaotic, if
Speaker 1: you are around chaos as a young person, then what
Speaker 1: could be more the antithesis of that than becoming a
Speaker 1: writer when you're in charge of the story. You know, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: now you you create order by writing it down and
Speaker 1: it now occurs like that. I think it's a fantastically
Speaker 1: clever use of your darkness. Yeah, that's off to you.
Speaker 1: It's much better than cocaine. I think, much better than
Speaker 1: cocaine and alcohol. I feel like your.
Speaker 2: Chic fun it's less fun.
Speaker 1: Oh I don't know about that.
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's that's more fun for a little bit,
Speaker 3: and then that gets really unfun.
Speaker 2: This is yeah, but yeah, but it is. It's exactly that.
Speaker 3: It's you're if you grow up in a world that
Speaker 3: doesn't really make sense. So many people become writers because
Speaker 3: they are trying to create a world in which they
Speaker 3: can make sense of it.
Speaker 1: I think that I think everything comes down to that,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. It's like your first ten years will inform
Speaker 1: the next seventy whatever you will do and I wonder
Speaker 1: about that later on. What does that look like for you?
Speaker 1: And is there any kind of look I don't do this,
Speaker 1: so I don't expect anyone else to do it, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I as someone like talking to you,
Speaker 1: who you know you do right? You do, create order?
Speaker 1: Is there an end goal? Is there a plan beyond
Speaker 1: the job that you're working on, like as apecific?
Speaker 2: Not really no, I mean I think like.
Speaker 3: What's interesting is I think it's it's really more the
Speaker 3: work that I have to do is sitting with stillness
Speaker 3: and not doing things, and that I find to be
Speaker 3: the most challenging because I think the way I've gone
Speaker 3: about my career and I've been really lucky and I
Speaker 3: feel very privileged to get to create things and have
Speaker 3: people connect with them. But like, I have been sort
Speaker 3: of on this treadmill for a long long time, and
Speaker 3: I find out when I have to stop, anytime I
Speaker 3: have to stop, that's that is like the real challenge
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 2: So I don't know that there's a goal.
Speaker 3: I feel so lucky to do what I do and
Speaker 3: I want to keep doing it for as long as
Speaker 3: I can, But I don't know that I don't want
Speaker 3: for much more in my career because I've been so
Speaker 3: blessed up unto this point.
Speaker 1: Is there a form of writing, because as far as
Speaker 1: I know, and I could be wrong, As far as
Speaker 1: I know all of you, writing is contained in the
Speaker 1: world of television. Is there is there a book?
Speaker 2: Is there a book?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: Some of my agent asked me this the other day.
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's a book.
Speaker 3: There's not a novel. I don't envision myself writing a novel.
Speaker 3: I would maybe write a book of essays or something
Speaker 3: nonfiction about my life when I have lived more of
Speaker 3: it and have more to tell.
Speaker 2: But no, not a novel.
Speaker 3: One of our hacks writers just wrote a novel over
Speaker 3: like that comes out soon, and I'm so impressed because
Speaker 3: I just my brain doesn't think that way.
Speaker 2: I can't picture doing more like prose.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm going to predict that you will
Speaker 1: change course on that, oh using book. Look, I'm not
Speaker 1: the boss of you, but I'm just saying.
Speaker 2: It'd be cool of you. I would love someone to
Speaker 2: tell me what to do, so.
Speaker 1: I feel like there are some Now. Look, I don't
Speaker 1: know who writes what in the script of hacks. But
Speaker 1: I hear the way that these characters look. I know
Speaker 1: the rules. I know that, you know, dialogue is exposition.
Speaker 1: I know that that. I know that every single thing
Speaker 1: that they're saying is telling the story. Even knowing that rule,
Speaker 1: I can't see it. That's some good, right, Oh, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, And so whoever, whatever you guys are doing
Speaker 1: in there, there is a love of pros. There is
Speaker 1: a you know, embrace, embrace Mono, embrace the you know,
Speaker 1: embrace the embrace the Luddite pros and see where it goes.
Speaker 1: I think you'd enjoy it. I think it's if you
Speaker 1: talk about imposing order on chaos, like when I was
Speaker 1: going through I wrote I've written one novel so far,
Speaker 1: one and a half. And when I wrote the novel,
Speaker 1: I was going through a terrible well. I don't know
Speaker 1: if anyone goes through a good divorce, but I was
Speaker 1: going through a divorce. Funny, I was going through an
Speaker 1: amazing it was such fun, such a riot where oh
Speaker 1: we had such a laugh. But I was going through
Speaker 1: a divorce when I wrote the novel. And if you
Speaker 1: talk about getting a world where you could impose everything,
Speaker 1: because one time I was getting a divorce, and i'd
Speaker 1: had I'd written a movie which had stiffed it had
Speaker 1: gone straight to video, which that's you know, that's usually
Speaker 1: long ago was because now going straight to videos what
Speaker 1: you need? Yeah yeah, I'd like streaming right away. Oh
Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah yeah. But the idea of imposing order
Speaker 1: on chaos. It became extremely therapeutic during all that to
Speaker 1: go to a world that I was one hundred percent
Speaker 1: in charge of. It's interesting. That's interesting. You don't have
Speaker 1: to have a plan, because once you create the first
Speaker 1: five or six pages, then it seems to kind of
Speaker 1: take you where it wants to take you. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, because I
Speaker 2: might actually really like it.
Speaker 1: I think you might.
Speaker 3: I hate writing alone. I get really and again, this
Speaker 3: is about the stillness.
Speaker 1: This is about the right.
Speaker 2: Even though I am like I don't.
Speaker 3: At a party, I'm not again to go back down
Speaker 3: and I'm going to be like the loudest person pulling focus.
Speaker 2: I also really don't.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 3: I hate writing alone. I like being alone. I like
Speaker 3: doing things alone. I'm very much an only child in
Speaker 3: that way. But writing alone is torture to me.
Speaker 1: I think you'll get used to it like all of
Speaker 1: you don't like all of us until you're thirty. That's
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Your tastes will change.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, good good.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I understand it though. Like people say
Speaker 1: when they go away to the country to write, I
Speaker 1: can't write shit in the country. I can't. But if
Speaker 1: I walk around the stay block in New York, I
Speaker 1: come back with an idea, right right, right, it's been around.
Speaker 1: I understand that. I understand the being around it. But look,
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing, keep fucking doing it because it's awesome. Thanks,
Speaker 1: and I'm very impressed. I feel like when you do
Speaker 1: write a book, I am entitled to ten percent of
Speaker 1: the sure for.
Speaker 3: Sure you're getting yes, yeah, yeah, Maybe you can write
Speaker 3: the introduction.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I will, and then I'll write a little
Speaker 1: thing on the back.
Speaker 2: Yeah this was you said, this was my idea.
Speaker 1: This is my idea. But you know I got admit
Speaker 1: Jen that show up and type it all right. It's
Speaker 1: been great to talk to you. Good luck with the
Speaker 1: new season, Highs. It's such a great show. Congratulations to
Speaker 1: everyone's been so lovely to talk to you.
Speaker 2: Well, please let me know what you think because it is.
Speaker 2: It is a world you live, so I hope we
Speaker 2: did it justice and got it right.
Speaker 1: It doesn't deserve justice, it just deserves to be reported
Speaker 1: A thanks like SAgs Bake