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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane. Daily

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Speaker 1: we bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg. Let's

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Speaker 1: see what our next guest, our first guest uh this

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Speaker 1: morning has to say. Stein Jakobsen is with us. He's

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Speaker 1: chief investment officer at Saxo Bank, joining us on this Wednesday. Steen.

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Speaker 1: Nice to have you here with Matt and myself. You know,

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Speaker 1: it has been a year of extremes, even though it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit quiet on this Wednesday. But whether it's Bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: whether it's I p o s, whether it's SPACs, whether

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Speaker 1: it's some of those big fang stocks here in the

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Speaker 1: United States, and we've seen big global moves, how does

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Speaker 1: that carry over or maybe set the stage for it's

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Speaker 1: more of the same. And I think you're leading into

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Speaker 1: your question. The conversation between you and Matt is clearly

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Speaker 1: indicating that we all right now waiting for January four

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Speaker 1: and the runoff in Georgia to set the stage for

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Speaker 1: what is the next level? And I think to some

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Speaker 1: extent mix. McConnell is playing that card. He wants to

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Speaker 1: be seen to be fiscally prudent into that sort of

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Speaker 1: leadoff uh and and designing what's going to be the

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Speaker 1: next two years before the midterm election. So I think

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Speaker 1: there's a very big political game going on in Washington

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Speaker 1: the terms of the US market, but in terms of

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Speaker 1: policy response, we know exactly what's going to happen in

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Speaker 1: twenty one. Any slowdown in economy, any increase in the

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Speaker 1: virus cases will be met by easier monetary policy by

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Speaker 1: fit and global center banks, and the fiscal person will

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Speaker 1: sit very very loose. On the politician, whatever color brand

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Speaker 1: ideas they come from. It's all about supporting a market

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Speaker 1: with no looking at the actual detail and non intended consequences.

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Speaker 1: So you know, most simulus but but I think for me,

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Speaker 1: but deep down, the only quasition that really matters to

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Speaker 1: me is where we end with ten year US interest

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Speaker 1: rate in one If it's hundred and fifty two hundred,

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Speaker 1: I think the rate sensitivity of the stock market will

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Speaker 1: come to you really think, do you really think we'll

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Speaker 1: get to that rate on the tenure? Absolutely? Absolutely. I

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Speaker 1: think two things are going on I think we have

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Speaker 1: been so dependent on the digital online transformation that the

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Speaker 1: physical world, the physical infrastructure no longer can actually follow

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Speaker 1: the success of that. So in other words, we've been

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Speaker 1: too successful in digitization and online sells going on to

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Speaker 1: the extent that ups and FedEx so they cannot get

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Speaker 1: vans to do the last mild delivery. We see shipping

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Speaker 1: rates across the group reaching all time highest together with

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Speaker 1: the stock market, not based on loose monetary policy, but

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Speaker 1: simply the fact that the infrastructure no longer is able

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Speaker 1: to deal with the success of this online story. That

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Speaker 1: is inflation in itself. On top of that, we have

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Speaker 1: had an un investment into the mining sector for years

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Speaker 1: upon years, and the same mining sector sixth centrally into

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Speaker 1: this theme of green transformation, the green Cabinet that Biden

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Speaker 1: talks about that he's appointed, the EU Deal which is green,

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Speaker 1: and of course China sixty. So absolutely I think inflation

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Speaker 1: is coming back in in one and and for the record,

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Speaker 1: I think growth would be much higher than the very

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Speaker 1: negative outlook that we have a simple link right now,

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Speaker 1: So one and a half percent to two percent um.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean we see more movement from the FED

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Speaker 1: at the year end, seeing if we see the ten

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Speaker 1: year rate get to that level. Of course, the position

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Speaker 1: of the FED right now is dovish, and with the

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Speaker 1: changes of the voting members coming into the Federal Reserve

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Speaker 1: Board for the new year, they're getting even more dovish.

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Speaker 1: So they come into the year with a very dovish

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Speaker 1: stands wanting to do more on the downside. So first

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Speaker 1: they need to move to manutral, which I think it's

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Speaker 1: really what's one is about for FET, but they could

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Speaker 1: if they've seen a huge price on on on inflation.

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Speaker 1: They will be caught short. Don't forget the FED does

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Speaker 1: not expect themselves in the dot plot to move before four.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely unrealistic in my mind. And and for

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Speaker 1: the regged again, I think FED is one of the

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Speaker 1: worst predictors of growth in the US, if anybody of anybody.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just wondering because exactly they said they're gonna

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Speaker 1: hold pat until and if we do see the kind

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Speaker 1: of inflation that you're talking about, if we do see

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Speaker 1: rates creep up, if you know, assets continue, if markets

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Speaker 1: continue to act as irrationally exuberant as the Airbnb I

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Speaker 1: p O proved, the FED has to do something maybe

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Speaker 1: beyond moving to neutral, don't they Yeah, no, no, that

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Speaker 1: is my take, mat But I'm just making the case

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Speaker 1: here that we first need to move to MOODU and

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Speaker 1: then we move into a hiking cycle. And when we

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Speaker 1: get to the hiking cycle, I think we'll have a

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Speaker 1: detrimental negative impact on the stock market because the fact

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Speaker 1: is that if you look at the NaSTA two actually

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Speaker 1: actually in the hundred index, they have had no earnings

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Speaker 1: increases over the last two years. So all of the

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Speaker 1: increase in valuation that receive in our technology mainly portfolio

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Speaker 1: is from the fact that we have an interest rate

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Speaker 1: sensitivity supporting the stocks. So in other words, the worst

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Speaker 1: economy gets, the more support you get from the interrates

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Speaker 1: sensitivity part and inverse, when we go to a high inflational,

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Speaker 1: higher steering rate, higher capacity utilization, yes, clearly the rate

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Speaker 1: sensitivity will be very negative for the technology in particular.

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Speaker 1: All right, Stevean, thanks so much for joining us. Really

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time. Stean Jacobson, Saxo Bank Chief Investment Officer,

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Speaker 1: I wish you a happy New Year, happy socially distanced

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Speaker 1: and masked New Year's Eve. We got to talk about

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Speaker 1: retail Matt because of course we're wrapping up the holiday

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Speaker 1: season and it was a holiday season unlike any others.

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Speaker 1: Want to get right to our guest because Jerry Storch

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Speaker 1: is with us a Storch Advisors UH. He's a management

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Speaker 1: UH and and advisory to UM a lot of other

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Speaker 1: retail companies that are out there. CEO and founder of

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Speaker 1: his own firm, former chairman ce of Toys Arrest, former

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Speaker 1: CEO of Hudson's Bay Company, former vice chairman of Targets,

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Speaker 1: so understands the retail industry so well. Jerry, Nice to

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Speaker 1: have you with Matt and myself on Bloomberg Surveillance. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've had the conversations about you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the trends that we've been seeing in retail got sped

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Speaker 1: up this year because of the pandemic. What trends really

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Speaker 1: stand out for you that you think are going to

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Speaker 1: be significant drivers of retail going forward? And good morning

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Speaker 1: by good morning, obviously you have to start with the

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Speaker 1: shift to e commerce. I mean, this is just massive.

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Speaker 1: It was happening before, but there's no doubt got tremendously accelerated.

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Speaker 1: I think what happened now is people who weren't as

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Speaker 1: prone to use e commerce. They had to because it

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Speaker 1: was the safe way to buy things, and they found

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Speaker 1: out not so bad. So a lot of that's gonna stick,

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Speaker 1: so you will you have in vaccine and acceleration towards

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Speaker 1: e commerce. Another big trend is to shift away from apparel,

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Speaker 1: from clothing into hard lines, electronics, other types of physical goods,

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Speaker 1: and so apparel has been in long term decline and

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Speaker 1: if you look at over a ten year cycle, clothing

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Speaker 1: is down not so much. People are you know, are

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Speaker 1: wearing you know, going out without any clothes on, or

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Speaker 1: wearing less clothes, but there's been a big casualization of

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Speaker 1: the workforce, so you buy less expensive clothes, and then

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Speaker 1: even for the same clothes, the average price point is

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Speaker 1: declined with the advent of fast fashion and all the

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Speaker 1: discounters taking huge markets. I mean, the basest clothing sellers

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Speaker 1: in the US right now are Walmart targeting Amazon. So

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Speaker 1: the average price points to claim. So what are people

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Speaker 1: doing with that money. They're buying hardlines, they're buying electronics,

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Speaker 1: and now in the pandemic for the home, and you know, I,

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Speaker 1: for one, I don't think I'm alone. You know, I

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Speaker 1: started learning more about how to bake. And now that

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Speaker 1: I of the pathos and the chemistry of banking, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna keep banking. So there's gonna be a lot of shift,

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Speaker 1: even more ecceler away from apparel and towards home. You

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Speaker 1: have the shift away from their apartment starts and towards

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Speaker 1: the discount stores. That's continuing, only accelerated by the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: It's funny I as well, Jerry, have really taken up

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Speaker 1: cooking over um the past few weeks and months only

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Speaker 1: because of this lockdown. I will point out one retailer

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Speaker 1: that one clothing retailer has done quite well, at least partially.

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Speaker 1: Clothing is l brands more than doubled this year. But

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Speaker 1: that's because, of course they don't sell office closed right, Um,

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Speaker 1: they sell maybe the less appropriate things you would wear

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Speaker 1: the office for Victoria's secret or the things that you

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Speaker 1: would use at home, like bath and body works. We

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Speaker 1: had a guest on a little bit earlier, seen Jakopson,

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Speaker 1: who said, one of the big problems for retailers right now, Jerry,

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Speaker 1: is that, um, the logistics is so expensive shipping stuff.

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Speaker 1: You can't find a truck out there, you know, tough

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Speaker 1: to get things on boats at a decent price. Do

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Speaker 1: you see that kind of inflation for companies that need

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Speaker 1: to shift their goods to people who now order everything

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Speaker 1: on the internet. Well, I think there's the real topic

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Speaker 1: is that is that there's a negative arbitrage in the

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Speaker 1: marginal profitability of an item that you sell and delivered

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Speaker 1: to someone's home on the internet versus when the customer

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Speaker 1: comes walking into the store and does all the transportation

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Speaker 1: themselves and by it just picks it off the shelf

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Speaker 1: and takes it home. And so for a lot of retailers,

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Speaker 1: a lot of companies, this is the most frequent, by

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Speaker 1: the way, assignment that I get its storage advisors help

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Speaker 1: people figure this out. For a lot of retailers, they

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Speaker 1: have to sell twice as much on the inner twice

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Speaker 1: do you get the same marginal economics the same marginal

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Speaker 1: profitability is what they sell in store, because you already

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Speaker 1: have the stores, all the people already there, and the

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Speaker 1: customer does that last leg themselves. So that's really the

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Speaker 1: biggest issue. And by the way, during the pandemic, FedEx

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Speaker 1: and ups, if you know, they've had capacity constraints and

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Speaker 1: they said okay, let the market clear it and they

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Speaker 1: raise their prices. They put in big search charges, so

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Speaker 1: it's costs more than it normally did. Eventually that will equalize,

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Speaker 1: that will come down. So I think over time, as

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Speaker 1: the system gets built out, is E commerces a higher

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Speaker 1: percentage of total sales, that penalty goes down, and that

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Speaker 1: freight penalty goes down over a period of years, not instantly,

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Speaker 1: but but and for some companies, what I like to

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Speaker 1: look at as the margin pool. You know, how many

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Speaker 1: dollars a margin or in that shipment you're sending someone,

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Speaker 1: you know, a pack of toilet paper. There's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of margin, but it's but it's bulky, you know,

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Speaker 1: is it's related to the cube more than anything else.

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Speaker 1: But if it's a you know, a diamond ring, no problem,

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Speaker 1: you know, because you could a thousand dollar ring, you

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Speaker 1: could have fifty five margin. The thing the transportation cost

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter, but it does when it's only a dollar

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Speaker 1: or two. And that's why you have to look at

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Speaker 1: each retailer separately and say who has best marginal economics?

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Speaker 1: So there's the best you know, margin pool to ship

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Speaker 1: that product to the home, so that the shipping becomes

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Speaker 1: less and for a luxury retailer. You know, it's not

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Speaker 1: very important because the customers are spending a lot of

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Speaker 1: money with a big margin rate. The shipping cost is

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Speaker 1: trivial compared to the overall margin pool. Yeah, and listen.

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Speaker 1: Want to ask you, though, Jerry, if you go up

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Speaker 1: and down the avenues here in New York, even across

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Speaker 1: from Bloomberg headquarters, there's multiple retail stores that were here

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Speaker 1: before the pandemic and they're not anymore. Who takes advantage

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Speaker 1: of that retail property on the other side of the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: Who are the retailers that you think are going to

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Speaker 1: be able to snap up some of those smaller, smaller locations.

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Speaker 1: Are are that really need more locations at this point

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Speaker 1: that there will be demand for their goods? We have

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Speaker 1: to separate New York real estate from all the rest.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's very different in Manhattan than it is

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Speaker 1: elsewhere in the world. For most of the United States,

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Speaker 1: the winners are clear. It's target Walmart Costco. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's big discount change. They have done fantastic, not only

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Speaker 1: by the way on the Internet, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: times their store numbers have been up when you look

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Speaker 1: at how they're because people have had fewer places to

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Speaker 1: go to, and they've been consoliding that it was making

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Speaker 1: big average ticket purchases when they go to those places.

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Speaker 1: So those are those are are big winners. Other big

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Speaker 1: winners of the home people like home Depot and Lows.

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Speaker 1: These numbers have been phenomenal that they're reporting, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's going to you know, soften, but it's

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Speaker 1: not going to change in terms of the middle long

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Speaker 1: term trend as we were discussing other warreas, people like

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Speaker 1: the dollar stores, I mean dollar in general, it's just

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Speaker 1: hitting it out of the park day day, week after

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Speaker 1: a week. So were the so his Family Dollar. Now

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Speaker 1: that you know that, they've got all the trends in

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Speaker 1: their direction, so I think a lot of it's gonna

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Speaker 1: go to people like people like this. The Mama Pops

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Speaker 1: are getting crushed. I mean they're absolutely get in crush.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you only have a single store, you

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Speaker 1: can't really you know, you have a limited line of offering.

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Speaker 1: You've been killed by the pandemic, maybe you weren't declared essential.

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Speaker 1: Beyond that, you have capacity restraints, constraints. Meanwhile, you can't

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Speaker 1: even afford to set up a really great internet site.

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Speaker 1: Needed it could you wouldn't have to get the traffic

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Speaker 1: to a because of fortune to pay Google Facebook for

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Speaker 1: the ads. Thin get the traffic. I gotta jump in.

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Speaker 1: I wish we had like an hour just to talk

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Speaker 1: with you. We're gonna have to get you back because

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Speaker 1: I love talking about retail and there's so much going on.

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Speaker 1: Jerry's Stort of Storage Advisor's former CEO of Toys r

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Speaker 1: Us and Hudson's Bay. Let's bring in a guest who

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Speaker 1: has a lot of experience with this kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: even though it's been a while since a value rotation.

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Speaker 1: Jim Paulson from luth Old Weeden Capital Management. He's the

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Speaker 1: chief investment officer there. I'm not saying you're old, but

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Speaker 1: let's say you're our age. Jim. You fit in the

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Speaker 1: same demographic with me and Carol. You were there the

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Speaker 1: last time value stocks for hip. He's seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of cycles, is what you're saying. Absolutely, So are we

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Speaker 1: going to see it again? Is is it possible that

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Speaker 1: we rotate out of growth and into value now that

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Speaker 1: actually some of the stocks I think of his growth

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Speaker 1: docks could now be value stocks. You don't um I've

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Speaker 1: sort of I've sort of moved away from thinking a

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Speaker 1: lot about value or growth. UM. I thought more about

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Speaker 1: sectors because I think ever since the dot com boom,

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Speaker 1: we have really screwed up kind of the value growth

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Speaker 1: trade off. There. There's a lot of times all own

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Speaker 1: parts of value and parts of growth, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's a better way to approach it. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of the value space is already starting to outperform

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Speaker 1: and will uh continue to outperform UM. But I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily just buy a value et F, you know, I'd

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Speaker 1: still look at sectors. I think there's some sectors in there,

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Speaker 1: the traditional value sectors I really like. I really like

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Speaker 1: the global synchronized recovery play, which to me really hits

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Speaker 1: a lot of industrials and materials UH sectors, traditional more

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Speaker 1: value plays. I like the idea that we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: probably in one the fastest world growth rate in a

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Speaker 1: long time, and particularly United States, maybe the fastest world.

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Speaker 1: Fastest growth here UM, I think it's gonna be around

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Speaker 1: six percent, so maybe uh since and to me, UM

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Speaker 1: that says interest rates fields go up this year, which

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Speaker 1: would favor I take the financials in the big way.

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Speaker 1: Traditional value play um so Jim, wait, wait, Jim, let

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Speaker 1: me jump in, Let me jump in, because um Stean Jakobson,

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Speaker 1: who we had on earlier UM talked about a tenure

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Speaker 1: maybe hitting one and a half two per cent, And

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Speaker 1: I do wonder if, indeed we start to see rates

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Speaker 1: going higher, if we see some signs of inflation, how

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Speaker 1: does that play out essentially though, when it comes to

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Speaker 1: FED policy, and what does that then translate into the

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Speaker 1: financial markets, the equity markets. Do we see then ultimately

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Speaker 1: a pullback as a result, even though we're seeing strong

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Speaker 1: growth in the economy. Well, I I think that one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's really interesting. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: unique aspects carroll about where we are today, but one

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Speaker 1: of them is that this record setting low yield environment

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Speaker 1: and really inflation environment simultaneously. So when we as we

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Speaker 1: lift off into this new recovery, we're not lifting off

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Speaker 1: for three or four percent yields and three or four

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Speaker 1: three percent inflation. We're lifting for record unprecedented levels. And

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Speaker 1: I think they could go up a fairer ways before

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Speaker 1: they really become problematic for the economy and for the

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Speaker 1: stock market. UM. I look back, for example, the nineteen

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Speaker 1: hundred just recently, Carroll and took all the months when

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Speaker 1: bond yields have been below three and looked at what's

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Speaker 1: the impact on the stock market when they go up

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Speaker 1: versus what they generally did if they're about three percent.

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Speaker 1: When they've been about three percent, which is about seventy

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Speaker 1: at a time since nineteen the stock market actually goes

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Speaker 1: down on average when on UH when rates go up,

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Speaker 1: But when you're below three percent, higher rates actually lead

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Speaker 1: to a better stock market by a wide margin. In fact,

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Speaker 1: all the months that we've been had a tenure yield

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Speaker 1: below three stock market when when they went up the

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Speaker 1: stock mark and analyze almost games and I think the differences.

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Speaker 1: If we take the bond yield from below one to two,

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Speaker 1: it will actually boost confidence in the future. It might

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Speaker 1: stoke animal spirits in the economy, moving us away from

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Speaker 1: years of negative yields in the United States and the like.

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Speaker 1: So I think I think that will actually be a

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Speaker 1: positive relian negative for a while. Got it, Jim, Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much, Jim Paulson, Luther Oldweden Capital of course. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The ce IO over there. Dr Mercedes Carnathon is Northwestern

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Speaker 1: University professor and preventive Medicine, also Vice Chair of the

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Speaker 1: Department of Preventive Medicine, joining us here, Um, nice to

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Speaker 1: have you here with us, Mercedes. Let's talk about what's

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Speaker 1: going on here. And you know, President like Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: coming out, he's worried about the distribution and logistics. You

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Speaker 1: are hearing about it, seeing about at firsthand, there's hiccups.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned that it's going to take a lot

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Speaker 1: longer than everybody anticipated? You know, certainly the original projections

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Speaker 1: of twenty million doses being in the arms of people

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Speaker 1: by the end of was ambitious, and you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's fine to set ambitious and lofty goals. I think

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Speaker 1: what we found out in the process was that it

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Speaker 1: was a little more complicated than we thought, and so

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Speaker 1: that's not unexpected to see that hiccup. But I am

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Speaker 1: concerned about these projections that it would take ten years

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Speaker 1: at the current rate to vaccinate this many people. But

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Speaker 1: you know, of course, when you start something up, it

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Speaker 1: tends to be a little slower. I feel very hopeful

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Speaker 1: that the pace of this will start to pick up,

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Speaker 1: But as it does pick up, it's going to become

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Speaker 1: more logistically complex to determine who is eligible for vaccination.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the interesting things that we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about a lot here, Mercedes, is the possibility that, um,

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Speaker 1: if you don't get the vac seeing, maybe your name

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Speaker 1: is going to go on a list. I think Spain

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Speaker 1: is doing that if you refuse it. If you do

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Speaker 1: get the vaccine, maybe you get to get on a

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Speaker 1: plane or go in a restaurant, you get special privileges.

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Speaker 1: Are they talking about that in the US as well?

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Speaker 1: You know, there have been a lot of discussions about

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Speaker 1: whether or not you can compel individuals in the US

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Speaker 1: to become vaccinated. Now, they are always going to be exceptions.

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Speaker 1: But my understanding is that employers can require vaccination as

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Speaker 1: a term of employment. Schools can do that, but they

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Speaker 1: do have to allow for exceptions. But I think where

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Speaker 1: this where this will become an interesting debate, but not

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Speaker 1: a theoretical one, because it has such real implications, is

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Speaker 1: that what if employees in a workplace refuse to vaccinate

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Speaker 1: and then they become sick at work, whose responsibility is

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Speaker 1: it going to be to pay for that sickness if

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Speaker 1: they allow those individuals, and what if their illness puts

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Speaker 1: the clients or the patrons of that business at risk.

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Speaker 1: I think the simple example of school systems, will school

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Speaker 1: teachers that administrators be required to vaccinate since as you

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Speaker 1: know right now, Uh, these vaccines are not approved for children,

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Speaker 1: yet we do know they're in the US two million

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Speaker 1: children have contracted Uh great nineteen. Well, it's just a

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Speaker 1: reminder that we still need more testing and that testing continues.

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Speaker 1: But I do wonder, Mercedes Um, that this speaks to

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Speaker 1: we supposedly had months that we were working on logistics

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Speaker 1: for the distribution of a vaccine. We knew it was coming.

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Speaker 1: Operation warp speed was full speed ahead. Uh, if you will,

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Speaker 1: I do wonder that, uh, if things aren't going as

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Speaker 1: quickly as they are right now. And I understand, you

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Speaker 1: give the vaccine, you've got to wait fifteen minutes or

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes to make sure that there's no reaction for

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Speaker 1: an individual. But do we need to see some kind

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Speaker 1: of like we're at war against this this virus, that

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Speaker 1: we need to see some kind of plan program, more

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Speaker 1: coordinated coming from the FED government to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we can get this out much more quickly. Because my

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Speaker 1: understanding is from the pharmaceutical companies that they've distributed millions

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Speaker 1: of doses, and yet we haven't seen that necessarily show

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Speaker 1: up in the actual vaccination numbers. Now that's a really

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Speaker 1: good point, and Operational Warp Speed accomplished its goal of

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Speaker 1: generating effective vaccines and record time. They talked about how

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Speaker 1: to get them out to the states in the United States,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't do any work on setting up the

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Speaker 1: infrastructure to be able to deliver those vaccines. So it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like getting almost to the finish line and

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Speaker 1: stopping to wave and take credit without actually seeing it through.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of details around getting the vaccine

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Speaker 1: into the arms of individuals, and right now we're in

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Speaker 1: the easy phase because we're just um vaccinating healthcare providers

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Speaker 1: and individuals in long term care facilities. We know where

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Speaker 1: those people are. We can verify who they are and

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Speaker 1: what they do. What's going to happen when it's time

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Speaker 1: to vaccinate in a variety of tears other essential workers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I work as a professor in a in

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Speaker 1: a university. Will I be eligible? I don't teach students

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Speaker 1: face to face, so where would I be on the

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Speaker 1: priority list? So all of these are really complicated things

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Speaker 1: that you know somebody actually has to sit down and

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Speaker 1: thinks through, Hey, listen, we've got to run, Mercedes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the virus is just one of those subjects we could

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Speaker 1: go on and on. Mercedes Carnathon. She's Vice chair at

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Speaker 1: the Department of Preventive Medicine at Northwestern Fineberg School of Medicine.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and

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Speaker 1: listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast

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Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keane before

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Speaker 1: the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg

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