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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Three little children, three children dead,

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Speaker 1: ages four, three and one. Why because of Mommy, I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation in series XM one eleven.

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Speaker 1: First of all, take a looks than to our friends

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Speaker 1: at Fox seventeen. Deputy say, a mother was driving down

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Speaker 1: James Road here right after eleven o'clock this morning when

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Speaker 1: she lost control, veered across the lane, flipped and ended

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Speaker 1: up in a retention pond. I'm going to step out

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Speaker 1: of the way actually so you can see where that

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Speaker 1: suv ended up in the water, which is about three

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Speaker 1: to four feet deep according to police. Now, Deputy say,

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Speaker 1: three kids were in child restraint seats and were under

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Speaker 1: water when rescue crews arrived. One two of the brothers,

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Speaker 1: a three and a four year old, died at the hospital.

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Speaker 1: The one year old is in critical condition tonight. The

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Speaker 1: mother was able to escape from the vehicle and is

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Speaker 1: hospitalized as well. So far, please haven't released any further

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Speaker 1: information or the names of these victims. Three young children,

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Speaker 1: Jerome the third, age four, Jeremiah age three, and Josiah

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Speaker 1: age one. Mommy Letitia Marie it's all on you. Eleven am.

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Speaker 1: Was this an accident where the roads wet was at

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Speaker 1: a dark and rainy and cloudy? Was it snowing? Or

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Speaker 1: was there another reason Mommy couldn't keep the car on

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Speaker 1: the road At eleven a m. Again, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: see Grayson is his crime stories. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Second verse, same as the first,

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Speaker 1: Mommy as high as a kite. Listen to Doug Rearden

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Speaker 1: in our cut two Fox seventeen. Thanks got worse for

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Speaker 1: that family and for that community. Today, the youngest of

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Speaker 1: those three boys, just one year old, died this morning

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Speaker 1: and the last hour authorities confirmed to us that the

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Speaker 1: four boys are Three boys are four year old Jerome

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Speaker 1: Gonzalez and three year old Jeremiah Gonzalez, who died at

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Speaker 1: the hospital yesterday, and now one year old Josiah Gonzalez,

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Speaker 1: who died today. Onto A County deputies say they got

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Speaker 1: the first call at eleven oh four in the morning yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and when they arrived at the scene, the thirty year

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Speaker 1: old woman who was driving was out of the carpet

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Speaker 1: in the water, frantically trying to save those three boys.

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Speaker 1: Deputies who jumped in with no wetsuits had everybody out

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Speaker 1: just ten to twelve minutes later, but it was too late.

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Speaker 1: Why does that always happen? Cheryl McCollum found a director

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Speaker 1: call Case Research Institute. Why does the purp live and

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Speaker 1: everybody else, all the innocent people die. It happens over

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Speaker 1: and over. It's one of the horrible aspects of this

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Speaker 1: whole thing. And a lot of the crashes are talking

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Speaker 1: about whoa whoa, whoa whoa. Wait a minute, did you

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Speaker 1: say accident? I did? Why did you say that this

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Speaker 1: was no accident, Cheryl McCollum. It's not an accident. It's

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Speaker 1: a straight up crime. There's no question about it. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Nancy again, how many times have you and

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Speaker 1: I talked about these cases? There are one hundred percent preventable,

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Speaker 1: these these crashes that you know you start out your day.

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Speaker 1: I mean her her day was not to hurt her children,

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Speaker 1: much less kill them. You know what, Cheryl, correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But um, did you get a law school? No? Oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: because let me remind you that the black and white

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Speaker 1: letter of the law. And I don't mean to be harsh,

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Speaker 1: but this is reality. The black and white letter of

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Speaker 1: the law is, and this is codified. The law assumes

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Speaker 1: you intend the natural consequence of your act. And I

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Speaker 1: said that slowly, because when I was in law school,

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Speaker 1: I had been in English Experience, literature professor. I did

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Speaker 1: not know what anybody was talking about. I had to

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Speaker 1: take these big, long sentences and break them down and

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Speaker 1: say them over and over until I really got it.

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Speaker 1: The law assumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.

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Speaker 1: You get drunk, you get high, and then you get

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Speaker 1: the key of the car, your Chevy Tahoe, and you

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Speaker 1: get in the car, after you put your children in

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Speaker 1: the car, your three babies, and you turn the ignition

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Speaker 1: and you take off. The law assumes you intend to

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Speaker 1: drive drunk or high, and the natural consequence of that

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Speaker 1: is a crash where your children die. Now that's the law.

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Speaker 1: And you waxing philosophically romantically, I might even say that

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Speaker 1: this is not what she intended when she woke up. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: don't care, they're dead. Well, I'll say something that's not romantic.

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Speaker 1: Let's just get down to it. Thirty two people die

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Speaker 1: every day. That means somebody's going to die during the

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Speaker 1: episode of your show today, one hundred and twenty people

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Speaker 1: will be severely injured again because somebody made the decision

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Speaker 1: to not call an uber, not stay home, not get

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Speaker 1: a designated driver. They did that. There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just that, Cheryl McCollum. I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to pull your teeth McCallum. I mean I had to

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Speaker 1: pull that out of you. I'm gonna let you think

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Speaker 1: about that and your actions for a few moments. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Angie Arnold joining me, renowned psychiatrist of the Atlanta Jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, what Cheryl McCollum just said after I pulled

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Speaker 1: that out of her is absolutely correct, But it's not

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Speaker 1: is taking your own life in your hands when you

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Speaker 1: at end the lives of three helpless children Jerome four,

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah three, Josiah one. I mean, that's a whole another

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Speaker 1: lair of wrongdoing. Oh. I agree with you, Nancy, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know how. I don't know how this woman's

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Speaker 1: going to ever live with herself. You know, I wonder

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Speaker 1: about that, doctor Andre, because some people, I guarantee you

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Speaker 1: will say, oh, it was an accident. It's not an accident.

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Speaker 1: You know. I want to go to doctor William Moroney.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney not just an incredibly famous chief medical examiner

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Speaker 1: joining us out of Michigan. He's the author of American Narkham,

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Speaker 1: but not only that, he has created in Commandeers, a

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Speaker 1: mobile drug treatment unit. He's putting his time, has effort,

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Speaker 1: his money, his energy while he's raising children to help

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Speaker 1: other people with drug problems. You know, doctor Moroney, you've

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Speaker 1: seen it all, and I guarantee you people like this

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Speaker 1: woman Letitia Marie will rationalize to herself, oh, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean that to happen. I'm so torn up,

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Speaker 1: be as Maroney. You know, what we have here is

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Speaker 1: the investigation is going to need to do drug and

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Speaker 1: alcohol testing at a level to decide it's an automotive accident,

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Speaker 1: but it was caused by an individual that may have

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Speaker 1: been impaired. There's a lot of testing that goes. If

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Speaker 1: she has drugs at a level that made her incompetent

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Speaker 1: and incapable of driving, well, then somebody's culpable and that

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Speaker 1: brings in the homicide. But as a medical examiner, I

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Speaker 1: would say that the choice. You have five choices on

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Speaker 1: a death certificate accident, homicide, natural suicide, and indeterminate. The

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Speaker 1: medical examine or that county may think it's too complicated

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Speaker 1: to call it an accident or a homicide, and then

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Speaker 1: the default on the death certificates would be indeterminate. You know,

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Speaker 1: doctor Marney, I wasn't really asking you as a medical examiner.

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Speaker 1: I was asking you as someone who has been around

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Speaker 1: so many attics in your lifetime. It's always a shape

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Speaker 1: shifting thing. They blame everybody but themselves. Look, I'm all

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Speaker 1: about forgiveness. I'm all about doing the right thing, but

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Speaker 1: I'm also about you do a horrible crime. You caused

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Speaker 1: the death of three infants. You're going to jail for

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Speaker 1: a long time. You can get saved and get for heaven,

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Speaker 1: get forgiven behind bars. What I'm asking you about is,

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Speaker 1: after all the attics you've seen, they shift the blame.

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Speaker 1: I guarantee she's not gonna be all torn up that

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Speaker 1: this is her fault. She is going to say this

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Speaker 1: was an accident. I didn't mean it. That's where that's

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Speaker 1: where her mind is. Drug use can never excuse a

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Speaker 1: criminal fatal behavior in a good, legitimate court that will

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Speaker 1: be clearly determined. Drug use can never be an excuse

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Speaker 1: for criminal fatal behavior. Um, you know what, Jackie, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about a mom you brought up right

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Speaker 1: before we went to air and I said it was

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Speaker 1: completely dissimilar. Susan Smith. Will you pull up that sound

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Speaker 1: for me and tell me when you've got it? Dave

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Speaker 1: Mac what happened in the case where Letitia Marie Gonzalez

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Speaker 1: was driving and ends up with three dead babies strapped

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Speaker 1: in in the back? Nancy? Shockingly enough, this happened around

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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock in the morning. The road conditions perfectly clear.

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Speaker 1: There's no snow, no sleep, no rain, The roads are dry. Okay,

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Speaker 1: whoa wa wa wait tell me that again. No snow,

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Speaker 1: no sleet, no rain, dry roads, no reason for anything

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Speaker 1: bad to happen. But it did. She the driver, missus Gonzalez,

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Speaker 1: swore it went across the opposite lanes of traffic, hit

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Speaker 1: a curb. The Chevy Tahoe rolled over and landed in

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Speaker 1: a retention pond that was about three to four feet

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Speaker 1: deep with water. However, it had about six inches of

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Speaker 1: frozen ice on top. The vehicle landed on its hood

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Speaker 1: on the top and the three boys ages four, three,

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Speaker 1: and one were trapped in their car seats in the vehicle.

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Speaker 1: Missus Gonzalez got out of the vehicle herself. Nine one

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Speaker 1: one was getting calls of people, you know, noting the

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Speaker 1: accident or the wreck. Fire. Rescue was unseen within minutes

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Speaker 1: and where they were able to get the boys out

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Speaker 1: of the vehicle. However, the three year old and four

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Speaker 1: year old died at the hospital later that day. The

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Speaker 1: one year old died the next day. And they call

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Speaker 1: it they all drowned. Benzal Is herself was able to

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Speaker 1: get out of the car. Time stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Let me understand something, Doctor William Ronney joining me, chief

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Speaker 1: medical examiner, are joining side of Michigan. How is it

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Speaker 1: that you drown like a delayed drowning because they were

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Speaker 1: alive when nine on one got there and then they

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Speaker 1: died at the hospital. How does that happen? Drowning is

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Speaker 1: the end result of not enough oxygen getting to the

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Speaker 1: brain because of water in the lungs and then the

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Speaker 1: sinus and you can't get all the water out and

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Speaker 1: it begins a process that we would call a sequela

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Speaker 1: of anoxia. What a sequela of an anoxia, and anoxic

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Speaker 1: brain damage comes because ice, cold water, regular water, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It gets in the body and it starts

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Speaker 1: this anoxic cycle, and it's without oxygen, anoxia without oxygen.

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Speaker 1: And just because you can clear the water when you

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Speaker 1: get to the hospital doesn't mean I mean the brain

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Speaker 1: dies in five to six minutes. So if they're under

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Speaker 1: water for five to six minutes and they're extracted at thirty,

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Speaker 1: morally and ethically, ms still have to take them to

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Speaker 1: the hospital. You don't pronounce children in a retention pond.

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Speaker 1: You put them in the burney, You get them in

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Speaker 1: the ambulance, you run them through we are, you get

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Speaker 1: them to U. You give children every possible opportunity for

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Speaker 1: revival and miracles. We don't pronounce people dead unseen and

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Speaker 1: you just hope for the best. But realistically, brain dies

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Speaker 1: in five to six minutes without oxygen. I know the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner determined the voice actually drowned. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how this whole thing went down. Letitia Marie

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Speaker 1: a thirty one, veered left across east bound lanes of traffic,

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Speaker 1: crossing multiple lanes. It's a miracle she didn't have a

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Speaker 1: head on collision with oncoming traffic and then somehow goes

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Speaker 1: off the road, catapults the tahoe and ends up upside

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Speaker 1: down in frigid, icy water. And those or the last

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Speaker 1: minutes of these boys lives as they scream out for who, mommy, mommy.

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Speaker 1: I can't be in a grocery store or a mall

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Speaker 1: or anywhere when I hear somebody say mommy. It's like

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Speaker 1: a shock goes through my system because I'm so used

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Speaker 1: to turning and find what is it to Wendy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. You can find her

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Speaker 1: at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com, the host of Today

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Speaker 1: with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ San Diego. Wendy, can you

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Speaker 1: imagine what these children lived through in their last moments?

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Speaker 1: A drowning death is one of the worst deaths you

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Speaker 1: can have because you're conscious until the last moments. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely right, Nancy. This is just tragic. And you know,

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Speaker 1: this is why driving under the influence is a crime.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talk about natural concert clinches. The jury

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Speaker 1: instructions talk about knowledge and intent. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: parents that won't even drive their precious cargo. I either

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Speaker 1: children if they're tired, much less if they know they've

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Speaker 1: they've ingested and intoxican, regardless of how they think that

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Speaker 1: they feel. So this is one of those cases where

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Speaker 1: not only is it inexcusable regarding that the driving, but

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, the cause of death and more just

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Speaker 1: it's almost tragic to think about the manner of death

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Speaker 1: and what it must have been like in those last moments. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox seventeen, our

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Speaker 1: cut three. Now they have to use witness interviews and

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Speaker 1: any video they can find, as well as markings on

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Speaker 1: the ground and on the suv to figure out how

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Speaker 1: the car left the road in the first place. And

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Speaker 1: on top of it all, they're dealing with the errific

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Speaker 1: loss of three young members of their community. Can imagine

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Speaker 1: pretty much everybody that was out there yesterday as a

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Speaker 1: father or a mother and then to have to deal

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Speaker 1: with that, but it doesn't compare to what the family

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Speaker 1: is going through, and our heart squat to them and

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Speaker 1: hal and Jaugio Fire Rescue also responded to that on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: We also know all three of those kids were wearing

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Speaker 1: approved the child safety seats at the time of the crash.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Cheryl McCollum. I'd be lying if I said

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Speaker 1: my heart didn't break for the mother who caused this

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Speaker 1: for the family. But Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold

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Speaker 1: for a reason. She may be heartbroken now, but again,

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Speaker 1: the law is clear, and I am quoting directly from

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Speaker 1: the black and white letter of the law. One may

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Speaker 1: immediately regret the deed, but that does not negate intent

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Speaker 1: or malfeasance at the time the act was committed. She

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Speaker 1: may be heartbroken right now. I'm sure she is heartbroken

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Speaker 1: right now, But under the law, the law has to

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Speaker 1: decide what happened when these children died at the hands

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Speaker 1: of mommy. As a matter of fact, take a listen

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Speaker 1: to a recounting of the Susan Smith story. Our lives

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Speaker 1: have been torn apart by this tragic event. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four, Susan Smith claimed she was carjacked by a

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Speaker 1: black man who took off with her two young sons

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Speaker 1: in the back seat. She pleaded for the safe return

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Speaker 1: of her boys, fourteen month old Alex and three year

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Speaker 1: old Michael. I would like to say to whoever has

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Speaker 1: my children that they please may please bring them home,

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Speaker 1: little by little, twenty three year old Smith's story fell

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Speaker 1: apart until this bombshell announcement. Susan Smith has been arrested

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Speaker 1: and we'll be charged with two counts of murder in

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Speaker 1: connection for the dance of her children. In reality, Smith

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Speaker 1: let her car roll down a boat ramp into this

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Speaker 1: lake with her two boys still strapped in their car

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Speaker 1: seats in the back. The reason, according to authorities, she

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Speaker 1: was having an affair with a man who didn't want children.

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Speaker 1: Both of her sons drowned. You're hearing our friendlist Trent

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Speaker 1: at Inside Edition. So my question, let me put a

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Speaker 1: hard question to you, Cheryl McCollum, How was that any

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Speaker 1: different from Letitia Marie because same end result. The little

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Speaker 1: boys are upside down underwater, strapped in seat belts, dead

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Speaker 1: because of mommy, Susan Smith, as she's begging the public

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Speaker 1: for help. What a fake, what a liar? Knowing where

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Speaker 1: the boys were the whole time, at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the pond here, I mean there, we know she intended

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, But here Mommy intended to get high

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Speaker 1: before she got behind the wheel and rosodically strapped her

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Speaker 1: boys in ages four, three and one. Well I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: start there. This lady strapped her children in for safety.

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Speaker 1: Susan Smith strapped hers in so they couldn't get out.

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Speaker 1: Completely different, even though the end result is the same

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Speaker 1: and it's still going to be murder. And here's the deal.

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Speaker 1: This lady leaves her house, puts her children in a

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Speaker 1: car for safety to head wherever she's going. She never

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Speaker 1: dreamed that that car was fixing to end up upside

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Speaker 1: down in icy water. Susan Smith got in her car,

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Speaker 1: strapped her children in so they could not escape, got

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Speaker 1: out of her car, let that car slowly go into

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Speaker 1: that water and sink while her babies were screaming for her.

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Speaker 1: Completely different, devil. Everything that you just said is correct,

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Speaker 1: however non responsive My question, why how is the end

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Speaker 1: result any different? The boys are dead and mommy is

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Speaker 1: the reason that's the end result. One intended it from

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Speaker 1: a plan, a premeditated plan. The other brought about the

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Speaker 1: same end result by driving high. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: Dave Mattcrime online dot Com, what was in her system

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Leticia Marie. Leticia Marie Gonzas was actually

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Speaker 1: taking methodone as on a daily basis with an actual

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Speaker 1: methodone clinic as part of a recovery program. The initial

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Speaker 1: dosage that she took at six thirty that morning after

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Speaker 1: clinic was her normal dosage. However, within thirty minutes, she

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Speaker 1: was on the phone with a connection somebody she knew

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Speaker 1: that also had methodone and was hitting up this other

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Speaker 1: individual to what she said in the text was borrow

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Speaker 1: a dose. So she was already taking She'd already taken

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Speaker 1: her normal dose for the day, so she would be okay.

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Speaker 1: But she wilfully and intentionally went and got another dose,

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Speaker 1: knowing the end result would be that she would be high. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I need you. Doctor William Maroney, chief medical examiner joining

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Speaker 1: Sout of Michigan and author and father, explain to my mind,

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Speaker 1: methadone is a recovery drug that you use as kind

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Speaker 1: of a path to get off of a more serious

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Speaker 1: drug like heroine. But what are the effects of methadone. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you take the dose that's prescribed, and only the

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Speaker 1: dose that's prescribed, the effect is it takes the way

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Speaker 1: cravings in your desire to use pain pills or heroine.

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Speaker 1: But if you go double your dose, if you take

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Speaker 1: more than your dose, and if you go to somebody's

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Speaker 1: house and take double the dose to what you had

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Speaker 1: in your clinic. Well, that's not supervised, it's not structured,

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Speaker 1: and it is bootleg methodone because it's distributed illegally. It's

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Speaker 1: illegal for somebody to take their dose and casually move

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Speaker 1: it over to a friend. That's illegal. That's drug diversion.

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Speaker 1: That is not a clinical event. Drug diversion. What's drug diversion.

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Speaker 1: Diversion is using a medicine in any way other than

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Speaker 1: as it was intended, meaning the time, or the strength,

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Speaker 1: or for the purpose. If you take methodone because you say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, it helps my anxiety, hey, it's not intended.

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Speaker 1: It's not approved for your anxiety. That's drug diversion. And

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Speaker 1: that's the same as giving methodone to your next door neighbor.

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Speaker 1: You know, it sounds so casual in the text. And

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Speaker 1: let me throw that to you, doctor Angelaarnold. Everybody, again,

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Speaker 1: this isn't high Tea at High Grove. All right, you

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Speaker 1: don't have the Queen and her corgis here, so jump

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Speaker 1: in if you have a thought, whether you agree or

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Speaker 1: disagree with me, and let's figure this out. To doctor

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Speaker 1: Angie Arnold, it sounds so innocuous, almost cozy. Hey can

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Speaker 1: I borrow a dose? It's like can I borrow a

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Speaker 1: cup of sugar? It casualizes it. And Nancy, most people

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Speaker 1: don't understand what goes on at a methodone clinic. I

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Speaker 1: don't really. I mean, I've gone there to find witnesses,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't take time to figure out what was

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Speaker 1: going on medically. I mean, Nancy, So the doctor is

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Speaker 1: in the methodone clinic and the patients come in, And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something. When I worked at

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Speaker 1: a methodone clinic, every patient that I saw during the

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Speaker 1: day asked me for more methodone. They are drug seeking.

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Speaker 1: Typically methodone is oftentimes a last resort to get them

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Speaker 1: off of something else. I have to remember that they're

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Speaker 1: drug thinking. And I'm wondering how many times this woman

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Speaker 1: had done us. This was not the first time she

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Speaker 1: ever did this, you know, Nancy, this is Wendy, This

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Speaker 1: type of off label use of narcotics what doctor Moroney

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Speaker 1: is referring to its drug diversion that in in itself

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Speaker 1: is a misuse. And this is just another aggravent in

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Speaker 1: terms of drugs seeking behavior. And then followed by driving

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Speaker 1: with your three babies in the car, So the knowing

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Speaker 1: more about the underlying facts and circumstances and the throes

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Speaker 1: of addiction. And I mean, let's call it out like

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Speaker 1: it is. Otherwise that initial dose would have been sufficient.

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Speaker 1: But even that initial dose, no doubt she was told

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Speaker 1: that she can't drive or operate machinery all the different

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Speaker 1: you know, dangerous warnings that that comes with. So that

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Speaker 1: just goes to the knowledge aspect of what can happen

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Speaker 1: if you do that? What kind of handy I gotta

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Speaker 1: jump in here too, Yeah, and but remind me after

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Speaker 1: you finished, Cheryl McCollum, I want to ask Maroney about

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Speaker 1: the effects of methadone. Is it like being on cracks?

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Speaker 1: It light being on meth being on a pot? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. We really haven't seen a lot of crimes

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Speaker 1: committed when you're high on methodone. But I want to

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Speaker 1: circle back to him. But go ahead, Cheryl, please, I

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Speaker 1: just want to peeyback on what Wendy was saying. You know,

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Speaker 1: damn well not to drive if you've used niquel, it

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Speaker 1: tells you right on the label don't drive. You certainly

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Speaker 1: know if you're home methodone. And I just want to

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Speaker 1: point out because I know you, as my former prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: would have done this. She committed at least three crimes

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Speaker 1: before she ever got in that car. She obtained it illegally,

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Speaker 1: possessed it illegally, consumed it illegally before she ever got

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Speaker 1: in that car. You know why that's so important, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people consider a drunken accident they

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Speaker 1: think it's an accident as opposed to a crime. They

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Speaker 1: think that it was unintentional. But the reality is is

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Speaker 1: you take a lot of intentional steps before you are

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Speaker 1: out on the road drunk or high. And you're just

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Speaker 1: pointing out three illegal acts before the final three homicides

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Speaker 1: of a four year old, a three year old, and

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Speaker 1: a one year old little boy. And speaking of the

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Speaker 1: little boys, listen to this the oldest I'm reading from

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Speaker 1: their obituary. You know that almost just actually hurt my

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Speaker 1: stomach because I think about my children, John, David, and

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Speaker 1: Lucy in the same sentence as obituary, and it tastes

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Speaker 1: like dirt in my mouth. The oldest, four year old,

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Speaker 1: Jerome the third, was protective of his younger brothers. At

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Speaker 1: four years old, he would protect his younger brothers, while

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah three and Josiah One like to play with toy cars.

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Speaker 1: They were joyful and active. They loved to dance, at

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Speaker 1: play at the park, at home, they played games all

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Speaker 1: the time. Just thinking about them, and I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: their pictures. Three little brothers dead in an icy pond

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Speaker 1: thanks to mommy. Take a listen. This is very critical

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Speaker 1: to our cut five. This is Captain Jay Douglas at

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Speaker 1: the Ottawa County Sheriff's office. When I got out there

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Speaker 1: hour and a half after the crash occurred, the roads

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Speaker 1: were dry. So in my opinion, the road conditions didn't

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Speaker 1: play a factor in this crash. You know, the investigation

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Speaker 1: could prove differently. But there wasn't snow, there wasn't ice,

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Speaker 1: they weren't wet. We have nothing to lead us to

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Speaker 1: believe that there was any pre impact type of accident.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't appear to be any contact between the victim's vehicle

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Speaker 1: or anyone else. Well, it's exactly like you said, Dave

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Speaker 1: mac joining us some crime online dot com. No snow,

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Speaker 1: no sleet, no rain, nothing, eleven AM high visibility, but

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Speaker 1: mommy still veers across multiple lanes eastbound and catapults or

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Speaker 1: vehicle upside down into a drainage pond Time Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, doctor William Moroney joining us, author of American

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Speaker 1: narcan can you tell me what the methodone high is like?

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Speaker 1: Is it like heroine, crag meth pot which one? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not a stimulant and it's not like cannabis. It

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Speaker 1: follows the category of opioids. Taking too much methodone, exceeding

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Speaker 1: your prescribed dose of methodone would be like taking too

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Speaker 1: many pain pills, and it would be like using heroin.

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Speaker 1: It comes with sedation, a sense of well being and drowsiness.

425
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: That's why she reared across lanes, a sense of relaxation.

426
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: And then when you see somebody they have pinpoint pupils,

427
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: pinpoint teeny tiny little pinpoint pupils. That's a sign of

428
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: opius and the drug recognition expert for law enforcement, and

429
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: there's probably about a thousand of them in Michigan on

430
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: Michigan roads. The sheriffs and the Michigan State Police recognize

431
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: those pinpoint pupils and somebody needs to be drug screened.

432
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: But they have a decrease in blood pressure, a decrease

433
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: in heart rate, and breeding can become extremely shallow at

434
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: high doses. But it's that drowsyit and that sense of relaxation.

435
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: A patient taking too much method owner any opioid is

436
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: looking for numbness. They want they want to feel numb.

437
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes they call it oblivion because they can't deal with

438
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: the stress around them. At the proper dose, it takes

439
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: away cravings for heroin. At a higher dose, it's just

440
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: the same as any other diverted drug. It's not intended

441
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: to make you drowsy. It's not intended to relax you

442
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: so much. Between beer cross lanes and this vehicle flipped

443
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: because of a high rate of speed. Because ivan, when

444
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: you're on an opioid and you're you're not able to

445
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: process things. The front end of a vehicle goes down.

446
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: And all across Michigan, from the western shores of Lake

447
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: Michigan to the eastern shores of Lake Huron, the sides

448
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: of our roads are beveled to create drainage, and that

449
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: means the nose of that Chevy went down and at

450
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: a high rate of speed, the rear axles flipped over.

451
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: You know, just like you know going on a bicycle

452
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: and going off the road, you know, your ask goes

453
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: over your handlebars. That's what it is, and you're because

454
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: of a lack of awareness, You're you're abtunded. You think

455
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: slow and you act slow. You know. I want to

456
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 1: give an example, and doctor William Moroney is joining us

457
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: from Michigan, and these deaths of this of these three

458
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: little children occurred in Holland, Michigan. So what he's saying

459
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: about the beveled roads, how the roads are beveled down

460
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: on the side, it's absolutely correct. We should may explain

461
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: why her car catapulted upside down into that into that

462
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: drainage pump. But to you, doctor Angel Arnold and Wendy Patrick,

463
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: I want your thought on this. Many times I've argued

464
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: to juries about opioids. Okay, typically it was heroin. Now

465
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: the big thing would probably be fentinol and ox codone,

466
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: that type of opioid. But most of jurars don't know

467
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: anything and as they shouldn't about opioid addiction. And I

468
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: would start it with saying something like, I guess you've

469
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: all seen Wizard of Oz, right, and they almost make

470
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: it to Emerald City, and then there's a big field

471
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: of poppies, okay, which can be used for opioid production,

472
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: and as they start walking across. Everybody gets sleepy and

473
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: they don't want to wake up, and they lay down

474
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: on the ground and they stay there until it starts

475
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: snowing on them to wake them up. And at the

476
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: other end of that, and then you see on TV

477
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: opium dens where people are lying around peacefully smoking opioid,

478
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: ingesting opioids. And then the reality of doctor Angela told

479
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: us about the Methodone Clinic where everybody is strung out

480
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: out of their minds. You have people lying in the street.

481
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: They have no idea what's going on around them because

482
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: they're high on opioids, and they ignore everything, their children,

483
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: they don't want to eat, they don't want to pay

484
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: their bills, they just want the next hit Doctor Angie right,

485
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: because Nancy, they don't want to feel anything. And Nancy,

486
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: the fact that she went to someone's house and got

487
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: an extra pill means that whatever they were giving her

488
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: at the Methodone Clinic was not She was accustomed to

489
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that dosnell and she was able to feel things, so

490
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: she wanted to go and get another pill so that

491
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: she couldn't feel. And as the guests have said, she

492
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: was a tounded Nancy. And you know something there, I

493
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people to blame here.

494
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: Does her family know that she's going to a methodone clinic?

495
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: Don't start, Do not start if she starts, cut or Mike,

496
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: because we're not blaming anybody but mommy. Her family may

497
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: have known. I'm sure they had a large hand in

498
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: getting her to a clinic, but she is the one

499
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: that texted the friend to borrow another dose. As a

500
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: matter of fact, take a listen to our fran Marissa o'

501
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: burrell at Fox seventeen Arc at eight. According to this

502
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: court filing, Leticia Gonzalez was under the influence of methadone

503
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: at the time of that crash. Now, she was prescribed

504
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: the drug as part of a treatment program and took

505
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: her normal dose the morning of that incident, but thirty

506
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: minutes later, the filing says, she asked to quote unquote

507
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: borrow someone else's dose. That person gave her that additional dose.

508
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: Shortly after that fatal crash was reported. The Ottawa County

509
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office arrested the thirty year old Tuesday on three

510
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: counts of operating while intoxicated causing death. She went before

511
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: a judge this afternoon and remains in jail on a

512
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand dollar bond. Davemattcrime online dot Com.

513
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: That is another step, intentional step to actually go to

514
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: a friend's home. Well, I don't know if a drug

515
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: buddies actually a friend, but to go to someone's home,

516
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: to go out of your way to go to their

517
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: home to get more drugs. That's another thing she did

518
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: leading up to the horrible murder of her children, you know, Nancy.

519
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: The thing that struck me was that we know that

520
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: she went and got her regular dose at the clinic

521
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: at six thirty in the morning. Within thirty minutes, she's

522
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: texting this drug buddy wanting more. This is somebody that

523
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: she had gone to in the past when she was

524
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: dope sick. Dope sick is after you run out of

525
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: medication and you start showing symptoms withdrawal. It's flew like

526
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: symptoms and it can be very uncomfortable. And she had

527
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: gone to this person before when she had been dope sick,

528
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: and this person helped her get through it by getting

529
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: her some more method on helped her. Yeah, I mean

530
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: to help her with the symptoms, you know. Anyway, there

531
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: was a deputy trained in drug recognition signs that was

532
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: on the scene. Now we have the description how the

533
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: mom was outside the vehicle and the water trying to

534
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: heroically get her children out of their car seats. Right,

535
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: But what this deputy saw right away at them that

536
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: her pupils were notably constricted and her eyelids were droopy,

537
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: and she displayed no response to direct lighting. They asked

538
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: her about drug use, and she lied. Her first response

539
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: was to lie. The second response was, oh, yeah, I

540
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: do take methodone. I got it at the clinic, but

541
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: she did not was not forthcoming about I got another

542
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: jose later, you know, they found out at the hospital.

543
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: Then they did the labs on her blood and found

544
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: out the methodone. But my understanding, and I don't know

545
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: how this changes. Doctor Maroney can fill us in, but

546
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: they couldn't determine the level of methodone in her system

547
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: at the time of the rack. About many Well, the

548
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: first thing that they do after an accident like this

549
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: is they bring you to the emergency room with the

550
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: closest hospital and they take a blood sample. Now, the

551
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: difference between the drug testing and the methodon clinic and

552
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: after an accident is that drug testing and methodon clinic

553
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: or any sub since abuse clinic is like ninety nine

554
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: urine drug testing, and that's not evidence based to determine

555
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: whether you're impaired or not. You really can't tell based

556
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: on that. But after an accident, a blood level, there

557
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: are levels of methodone that are considered analgesic, and above

558
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: that you would have the euphoria, the obtendation, the sedation,

559
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: the slow thinking, the slow acting, and sometimes those circles

560
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: of what level drug that is they overlap and where

561
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: they have the determination to say, well, this drug level

562
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: says she's impaired, Well, you know they technically you judge

563
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: the impairment by the functional problem behind the wheel that

564
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: caused the death of the children. You can never use

565
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: a lab value. You can never say that's the number

566
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: she's impaired. Well, other thing, speaking of being impaired, let's

567
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: just get down to it to you, Wendy Patrick. Dave

568
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: Mack from Crime Online made a point to tell us

569
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: that she quote his word, not mine, heroically tried to

570
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: save her children after she lands them in an icy pond. Really,

571
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: she couldn't even respond to light or answer questions correctly.

572
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: How much do you think she was helping to save

573
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: her children. Really, that might be a bit of projection

574
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: on anybody's part as a parent. We want to think that, absolutely,

575
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: we wouldn't think that. And I want to add to it,

576
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney and David Max brought up crashing her curR

577
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: into the latest circumstantial evidence of impairment. That is going

578
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: to be one of the biggest arguments because we've already

579
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: ruled out all of the other things that might have contributed.

580
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: It was clear sky, there was no sweet, no snow,

581
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: no rains on the road. So the mere crash itself

582
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: is going to prove what a lab test cannot do.

583
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: They better get out there with a reconstructionists pronto, because

584
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: I can imagine all sorts of line the defense might

585
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: bring up a deer around across a car summoned to

586
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: a right made revere to the left. I mean, we

587
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: don't know, so we better get out there pronto with

588
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: an accident reconstructionist. But I want to point something out,

589
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. You know, when I had the children, the twins,

590
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: I would actually practice running if I had to save

591
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: them under various conditions. Would that much weight under both

592
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: arms because I had two that would have to be

593
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: saved at the same time, and figured out how I'd

594
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: try to save them if we went underwater in the car,

595
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. Praise God, none of that ever happened.

596
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: But even to this day, Cheryl, when I have the

597
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: twins in the car, I try very much not to

598
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: drive on the interstate. Why not because I'm impaired, Because

599
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: I'm worried about the other people that are impaired. Going

600
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: eighty ninety miles an hour. I mean, you can't be

601
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: too careful. And now these three boys are dead. Nancy,

602
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: you cannot be too careful. And here's three reality. There

603
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: were some witnesses that saw her veer enough the road,

604
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: So those witnesses were going to be key. So is

605
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: the black box from that car. That data is going

606
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: to show us when she accelerated, the speed, when she

607
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: was breaking, the doors that were opening and closing, and when.

608
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: So they'll be able to show was she trying to

609
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: save them. It'll show the exact time of the crash

610
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: and all of that, and you know, the accident reconstruction.

611
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: This is going to be key. And then they're going

612
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: to cross check all of that with these text messages

613
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: and whatnot that she's sending to people trying to get

614
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: additional drugs. Yeah, I mean, really, Cheryl, I guess she

615
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: thought she wasn't high enough to go driving with her

616
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: children in the car. I earlier misspoke. I said murder.

617
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: This has not been charged as a murderer. It's right

618
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: now ending up as a vehicular homicide. I think it

619
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: should be a murder charge because her intentional acts brought

620
00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: about the desk of three innocent babies, now angels. We

621
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: wait as just as sun falls. Nancy Grace Crone's story

622
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: signing off good Bye friend,