1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: Hey there, it's Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about our brand new podcast, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Thank a Songwriter. Each episode, I sit down with the 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: incredible songwriters behind the hits that you love. We have 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: honest conversation about creativity, collaboration, and their individual journeys to 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: their biggest hits. These conversations will make you hear music 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: in a whole new way. Tune in wherever you get 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: your podcast to Thank a Songwriter, because greatness deserves gratitude. 9 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Strictly Business and He's weekly podcast featuring 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: conversations with media's brightest about the ins and outs of 11 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: the respective industries. I'm Stephen J. Horwitz, Senior music writer 12 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: with riety these guests is Tihran Thomas, the music industry 13 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 2: titan who has forged concurrent paths as both a songwriter 14 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: and artist since debuting in two thousand and eight as 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: one half of Our City alongside his brother Timothy. Tihran 16 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: has found success in the spotlight, with the group scoring 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: the top ten hit locked Away featuring Animal Van in 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, but it's been behind the scenes that Tihran 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 2: has maintained a high profile, becoming one of the music 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: industry's most dependable songwriters. Over the past two decades, Tihran 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: has had a hand in writing hits including Miley Cyrus's 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 2: We Can't Stop and Brianna's Man Down. More recently, collaborating 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: with artists including Justin Timberlake and ge Dragon. His latest 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: smash was with Rose and Bruno Mars's apt, a song 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: that recently earned three Grammy nominations for Song and Record 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: of the Year. Tihran is no stranger to the Grammys himself, 27 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: becoming the second person to win the award for Songwriter 28 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: of the Year Non Classical in twenty twenty four, and 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,279 Speaker 2: in industry where getting in the room is a battle 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: unto itself, Tieran sheris his story on how you went 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: from an aspiring musician from the US Virgin Islands to 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: one of the biggest hip makers in the biz. Where 33 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: I want to start with you is talking about the 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: most recent news that has come into your worlds, which 35 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: is a a song by Rose and Bruno Mars just 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: got nominated for three Grammys. Congratulations, thank you, Yes. 37 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: So I want to ask. 38 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: You all about what it takes to put together a 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: song like this. From what I understand, there were eleven 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: songwriters on this one. And for those who are not 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: necessarily tuned into the songwriting business, how does eleven people 42 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: in a room? 43 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: How did they write a song together? 44 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 4: Well, just so you know, eleven people aren't ever in 45 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 4: a room. It's probably no more than five. But what 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 4: happens is producers are counted as songwriters, so you know, 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 4: you might you might have the guy that played the 48 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 4: melody line on the chorus with his keyboard, he's mentioned 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 4: as a writer. Everybody that's mentioned as a writer isn't 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 4: somebody who came up with a lyric or the melody 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 4: that you sing. It could be a part of production 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 4: as well. Then how you come up with eleven writers 53 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 4: is the original group was Amy, Allen, Omerfetti, Tyran, Thomas, 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 4: Circuit and Rosie. Then Rosie plays it for Bruno. Bruno 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 4: is like, yod, this is fire. Let you know, Bruno 56 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: brings in his his guys to be like, hey, let's 57 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 4: soup it up. So it yes, it's still Rosie, but 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: it fits a little bit more with Bruno, you know. 59 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 4: So he brought in his crew too, and that's how 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 4: that's how it became like this this cob collaborative gumbo 61 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 4: of creators, as I would say, you know, but it 62 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 4: turned out to be great. I think everybody's very happy 63 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 4: with the outcome of the song, and we're very proud 64 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: of it and super grateful for everybody who participated everything, 65 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 4: even even if it was a sentence or a word 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 4: or we don't care. It's like, you know what I mean, 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 4: three Grammys later and one of the biggest songs, and 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 4: you know, of my career, one of them. I'm super 69 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 4: super grateful. 70 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: So the way that you're describing it is this sort 71 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: of like a typical process for songwriting where a song 72 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: can get passed around from various people. 73 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 3: A lot of people could be chiming in different places. 74 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: Is there sort of a typical way to write a 75 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: song for you, No. 76 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 4: That's not a typical way. What it is is when 77 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 4: you're dealing with superstars, you know, like a like a 78 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 4: Rosie from Black Pink or Bruno Mars, what happens is 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 4: everybody has a team, everybody has ideas, so it becomes 80 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 4: something like that. If it was Rosy song by herself, 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 4: it would have stopped, you know what I mean. But 82 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: it's like, if me and you wrote a song, and 83 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 4: let's say me and you write a song together, it's 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 4: it's me you make the beat, I write the song. 85 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 4: We own one hundred percent of the song. But now 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 4: we send the song to Lizzo, and now Lizzo is like, ooh, 87 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 4: I think we should add horns, that we shoulda da 88 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 4: da da, and we should change this. And I don't 89 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 4: like the second verse as much, but Lizzo brings in 90 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 4: her writing partner, and so it went from two to four. 91 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, gotcha? 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: And as I mentioned, this song is up for three 93 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: Grammys at the twenty twenty six Awards, which is amazing 94 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: but obviously not your first radio. 95 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: When it comes to the Grammys, you. 96 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: Were the second person to ever win Songwriter of the 97 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: Year Nonclassical. 98 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, second person, tell me first black person, but 99 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 4: second human. 100 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: Well those are two great accomplishments. So you've been an 101 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: artist for decades and you've been a songwriter for just 102 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: as long. What is something like that mean to you 103 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: at this point in your career? 104 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 4: The Grammys, I mean, it just means so much because 105 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: the Grammys is an awards ceremony judged by our peers. 106 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 4: You know, it's not like how it's like other award 107 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 4: show wheres like oh the fans get to call in 108 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 4: and say it's their favorite and they love the artists, 109 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 4: and you know it's really the Grammys is more like 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 4: you know, fellow songwriters produce as musicians and people of music, 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 4: creative and non creative as well, sit down and really 112 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 4: have a conversation about like this is great, you know 113 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: what I mean? And I mean it just it just 114 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 4: means a lot. I mean, if anybody knows me, like 115 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 4: I said, I'm a kid from Same Thomas, Virgin Island. 116 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 4: Same Thomas is thirty two square miles I left in 117 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 4: two thousand and My first hit song was when I 118 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: Grow Up by the Pussycat Dolls and where the pussy 119 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 4: Cat Dolls won an EMPTV Award and thanked us on MTV. 120 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: And that was for me and my brother were at 121 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 4: home like, oh my god, what is We were so 122 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 4: excited and now years later, not only still being in 123 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 4: a music business, but still being relevant as a creative 124 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 4: and still getting the calls and still having polished and 125 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 4: seasoned artists called but brand new artists who are like yo, bro, 126 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 4: you don't understand, bro, I've always loved you. My dream 127 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 4: is to work with you. You're like, what, you know, 128 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 4: I'm still the kid from Saint Thomas in my mind, 129 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 4: you know, So yeah, it means the world to me, 130 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 4: you know, because I've wanted to do this since I 131 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 4: was nine years old, and I'm like, you know, I mean, 132 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 4: not everybody gets to live their nine year old dreams 133 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 4: as an adult. 134 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: Take me back to those early days. You you're talking 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: about the group that you have with your brother. 136 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: The group is called our City Rock City for some 137 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: folks who are tuned in. And do you always have 138 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: the idea that you wanted to pursue being both an 139 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: artist and a songwriter as sort of like a separate 140 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: vocation or did that's come naturally with the territory. 141 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 4: Man, I didn't even know songwriting was a job. I 142 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 4: didn't know people, you know. I coming from Saint Thomas 143 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 4: and being in an amusement, I thought everybody wrote the songs. 144 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 4: I'm a father of six and my first kid, my 145 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: first kid. I was twenty one years old. I was 146 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 4: flat broke and working at Party City and just just 147 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 4: at you know, like at the end of my robe, 148 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 4: Like what am I going to do. And there's a 149 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: song that I wrote when I was in the seventh 150 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 4: grade during a hurricane. It's called the Rain and I 151 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 4: read me and my brother reformulated it, and Akon on 152 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 4: his second album, Convicted, used the song. Well, Akon paid 153 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: me and my brother five thousand dollars to get this 154 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 4: to sing the song. And again, I'm working at Party 155 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 4: City part time. And that's the most money I've ever 156 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 4: gotten in my life at the time at once, and 157 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,239 Speaker 4: I was like, people that write songs get five thousand dollars. 158 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 4: And I at that time, I used to carry all 159 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 4: my songs in a backpack in which I still have. 160 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 4: It's in my closet and it's just a bunch of 161 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 4: loose paper. I don't even remember how those songs go. 162 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 4: I just have all the songs. And with all honesty, 163 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 4: I just wanted to feed my daughter, man, you know, 164 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 4: and I grew up. I come from you know, extreme poverty. 165 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 4: You know. Some people are like, oh, man, I'm like no, 166 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 4: like I'm you know, extreme poverty, and and I just 167 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 4: was like, man, I don't want my daughter to grow 168 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: up like that. And songwriting was like yo, as artists, 169 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: nobody cares, but this song that I wrote. Me and 170 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 4: my brother wrote it for us. It was our song, 171 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 4: and we played for Akon and he ended up, you know, 172 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 4: our best friend played it for Akon and he ended 173 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: up like, yeah, I love it, Da da da and 174 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: paid us five brand And I was just like, yeah, 175 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 4: let's do that songwriting thing more because people pay that, 176 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: you know. Let's do that to make money so I 177 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 4: can take care of my daughter, you know. And so 178 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 4: that's how I got into songwriting, like, you know, based 179 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: off of necessity, Like yo, bro, I gotta do something 180 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 4: to buy this formula and these dipers. So if it's songwriting, cool, 181 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 4: let's make it happen, you know. Yeah. 182 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: I remember when you guys debuted. It was around the 183 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 2: same time that Lady Gaga debuted as well, and she 184 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: was in business with Akon as well, and she was 185 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: writing songs for other people too. She ended up going 186 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: the mainly artist route. She writes all of her own songs, 187 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: but she's not writing a lot of songs for other people. 188 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: But at the same time that you're pursuing our city, 189 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: you're also writing these massive hits for other people. So 190 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: how do you reconcile those two things and keep your focus. 191 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: Well, it was a very difficult thing in our city, 192 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 4: you know, coming from the Virgin Islands, Like we were 193 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 4: trying to find ourself as artists and sound and sonic 194 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 4: and so we were at in a scope, We were 195 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 4: at Convict, Geffen, con Live, Geffen, through in a scope 196 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 4: and we had been working and I think we were 197 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: talented and we and we still are. We do everything. 198 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 4: But as an artist, when you're trying to sell something, 199 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 4: you can't you know what I mean, I can't sell 200 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 4: you a purple orange, blue, pink black shirt. You know, 201 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 4: It's like, yo, what what are we what scheme unless 202 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 4: it's tie died, what scheme are you going for? And 203 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 4: I think we found that years later when we when 204 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: we signed to Keimo Sabi and we did our song 205 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 4: Lopped Away with Adam Levine, and we was like, oh, 206 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 4: you know, because we had worked with Sean Kingson and 207 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 4: we had worked with Ayas, and we was like all 208 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 4: of these guys are like Caribbean pop crossover groups and 209 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 4: we were fighting it so much, like no, no, no, 210 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 4: no no. And once we got the opportunity, once we 211 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 4: got with Kimo Sabi, and we was like told, hey, 212 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: I mean you guys are good, but you guys are 213 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 4: really really good when you do that. That's when it 214 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 4: went that way. But writing, but right, we were so 215 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 4: successful as writers that when we had to hit with 216 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 4: Adam Lazeen, it's like, okay, we were writers, very successful, 217 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 4: Like we was already you know, financially stable and doing well, 218 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 4: our families were doing well. And as a songwriter, they 219 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 4: would fly fly us first class and put us in 220 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: a nice hotel. Well as an artist with one song, 221 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 4: they would be like, yeah, you guys are going to 222 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: the embassy suites and you guys got to figure out 223 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 4: how you're gonna get to the interview at five. And 224 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 4: we was like, yeah, but I'm already a big deal. 225 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 4: What are you talking about? And that was a very 226 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 4: hard thing to grasp, you know what I mean, And 227 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: it made it really difficult for a while. And once 228 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 4: we put out an album and went on tour, touring, 229 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 4: was just like this sucks like to me because I mean, 230 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,599 Speaker 4: you know, I was married, I'm still I still you know, 231 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 4: me and my wife are celebrating sixteen years of marriage 232 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 4: on the twenty of December, thank you, and I'm like, yo, 233 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 4: I'm married, I got my kids and I'm like, I'm 234 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 4: missing a whole bunch of stuff, like out here saying 235 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 4: I want to go home, you know what I mean, 236 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 4: And so kind of like more focusing on that and 237 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 4: getting to that space and then just wanting to be 238 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 4: like known as a huge writer. I kind of went 239 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 4: into that place, was like, if I'm not good at okay, 240 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: so if I'm not gonna be gaga, I want to 241 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 4: be gaga of writing songs for people if that means 242 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 4: I'm like, how do I become the biggest person behind 243 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 4: the scenes. And so I kind of focused on that 244 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 4: up until like again the you know, twenty twenty, we're 245 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, yet twenty twenty four bramd Me's one 246 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 4: songwriter a year, and for me that was like, okay, guys, 247 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 4: I'm one of the biggest yep YEP. I did it. 248 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 4: I did what I said I was gonna do, and 249 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 4: just balancing it now, I feel like I got a 250 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 4: better balance of how I want to do it because 251 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: our city, we're about to put out a new record, 252 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 4: a new single March of twenty twenty six, and we're 253 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 4: super excited and there's no pressure with like making music 254 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: that we love and We're having a good time and 255 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 4: we've made great relationships, so we have cool features and 256 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: cool people to collaborate with. And I'm still writing like 257 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: songs and still calling all the cool rooms, and I'm 258 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: working on great things, and I have artists of my 259 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 4: own now, like it's just like fire. You know, I 260 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 4: love it. 261 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 5: Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more of 262 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 5: Variety's Strictly Business after this break. 263 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: Hey again. If you're loving this show, you'll want to 264 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: check out our brand new podcast, Thank a Songwriter, hosted 265 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: by me Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville, 266 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: where we shine a spotlight on the unsung heroes of 267 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: the music world, the songwriters. On each episode, I sit 268 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: down with some of the best songwriters in the business 269 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: to hear the stories behind their greatest hits and your 270 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: favorite songs. Thank a Songwriter is available now wherever you listen. 271 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 5: And we're back with more of Variety's Strictly Business. Interview 272 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 5: with songwriter Tehran Thomas. 273 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: As a songwriter, you it obviously became a more of 274 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: a priority following arcity tour, the massive success you have 275 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: with Adam Lavine's song and where are these opportunities coming 276 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: from for those who don't know, how do you get 277 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: in a room with a Rihanna or get a song 278 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: to someone like a Rihanna or Justin Bieber, both who 279 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: are artists you have written for. 280 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 4: And the music business has changed so much so back 281 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 4: in the day, getting a song to an artist was 282 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: a bit easier because it was a lot more channels, right, 283 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 4: So I could send my song to Deaf Jam who 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 4: Rihanna was signed to, who had a relationship with Rihanna, 285 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 4: and they could send it to Rihanna if they loved it, 286 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 4: or they could play for her manager or you know, 287 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: played for Jay Z or there was a numerous amount 288 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: of people around the artists that'd be like, no, this 289 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 4: song is a hit. We have well now in this 290 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 4: new music business. And that's why I'm super grateful, because 291 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 4: you have to be requested, like not like you know, 292 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: selling a song to an artist is not like, oh, 293 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 4: I send it to a friend and gets it. It's 294 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 4: more of a request either by the artists or the 295 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 4: people working with the artists. Like let's go back to 296 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 4: apt omer Fetti called me and was like, Yo, I'm 297 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 4: working with Rosie of Black Pink and me and Amy. 298 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 4: We've been writing these songs and we've been in with 299 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 4: her bro O T. I needed TRN Special bro pull 300 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 4: up on us, you know, and I'm like, okay, cool, 301 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 4: you know. And that's how I got into the room 302 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 4: with Rosie. You know. When I met Rosie, Rosie, Rosie 303 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 4: didn't know me, and you know what I'm saying, I 304 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: knew Black Pink. So it's like, oh, okay, and we 305 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: just met each other and and we and we did 306 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 4: and we worked together. I think we did two days, 307 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 4: you know, And and out of those two days, APT 308 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 4: was created. Gotcha. 309 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: So obviously you've had a very accomplished career. I've mentioned 310 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: songs for Rihanna like Man Down, and you wrote on 311 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: we Can't Stop for Miley Cyrus. These are massive hits. 312 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: And you talk about how the nature of the music 313 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: business has changed how you get those opportunities, And I'm 314 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: curious if you also have had an attitude shift, or 315 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: maybe a perception shift towards what a hit actually is, 316 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: especially in the streaming economy where we are in twenty 317 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: twenty five, How do you. 318 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 3: Define the success of a song These days. 319 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 4: It's numerous ways to define it. Back then, it was like, yo, 320 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 4: if you're in Billboard top ten, if you know are you? 321 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 4: Are you charting on radio? Which are all signs still 322 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 4: of success? You know what I'm saying. But I think 323 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 4: you know, Spotify top fifty Global, Spotify top fifty US 324 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 4: is now a chart that that means a lot, that 325 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 4: matters to a lot of creatives. Like let's see what's 326 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: going on. I would say, people knowing your song, you 327 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. Like TikTok is something that oh man, like, yo, bro, 328 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 4: we got we got eighty thousand videos of on our 329 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 4: song on TikTok gives it a sense of successful. But 330 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 4: as far as financially, if we're going to talk about 331 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 4: how we make money, like radio is still king, man, 332 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: radio is still king, and worldwide radio is still king. 333 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 4: So as a creative, even all the new writers and 334 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 4: producers and everybody coming up, I'm still like, yo, bro, 335 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: you want to make hit songs that can play on 336 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: the radio, that people could sing along and play everywhere. 337 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: You know, sinks are a really big deal in this 338 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 4: new music business. So commercials and movies. The thing about 339 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 4: commercials and movies, you know, if you have a crazy, dirty, 340 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 4: raunchy song, right now. If it's not big, if it's 341 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 4: not big at all, you're like really really fighting to 342 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 4: get people to want it, to play it somewhere in 343 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 4: a commercial, and it is now if it's huge, if 344 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 4: it's just like whoa, what a massive hit like I 345 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 4: Got a hole call and that scheck weest like, you know, 346 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 4: cause I just heard that in like a film, like 347 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 4: I want to say this today or yesterday, if I'm 348 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 4: not mistaken. But a song like that being so big, 349 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 4: it can get a lot of sinks. But before it's big, 350 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 4: people are like, no, you know what I'm saying. But 351 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 4: there's songs that are super sinkable that don't have to 352 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 4: be big. You know, it has a nostalgia to it. 353 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 4: It sounds like, you know a lot of the times 354 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 4: they're using like old school songs and a lot of things. 355 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 4: And imagine if you have an old school if you 356 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 4: have an old school new sound like Yo, this kind 357 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: of gives me a sixties, a forties, a fifties, a 358 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: seventies and eighties, but it's new and it's not dirty, 359 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 4: and oh man, instead of using Madonna, how about we 360 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 4: use this new artist that still fits the vibe, you know, 361 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: and those things. Those things matter. So again, making money, 362 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 4: it's a lot more ways to make money, but it's 363 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: harder to make money right. 364 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: Well, on the topic of a song like APT eleven 365 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: people who are credited as a songwriter, as we began 366 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: this discussion with when you go into the studio, are 367 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: you mindful of something like that the splits and and 368 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: do you prefer to have a smaller pool of people 369 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: to work with for this exact reason? 370 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 4: Well, normally on normally I never go over five, Like 371 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 4: if I set up a session, I'm like, yo, bro, 372 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 4: no more than five people in a room at a time, 373 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 4: because you know, we can split it evenly. Everybody gets 374 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 4: twenty percent. Incredible, Listen, God is good. Everybody made money today. Family, 375 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 4: you know, everybody's families should be good if we write 376 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 4: APT you know. But again, on a rare occasion, sometimes 377 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 4: you write a song that's really great, You send it 378 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 4: to Bruno, you send it to God, somebody big, and 379 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: they're like, yo, I really love this song. But I'm 380 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 4: a writer, a producer. I'm a creative creative as well. 381 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 4: How do I how do I make the song a 382 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 4: little bit more me all, In the case of a duet, 383 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 4: balance it so it's more me and the artists, so 384 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 4: we're not going through any so it doesn't sound like 385 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 4: a copy paste or just like oh this, you know 386 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: what I'm saying, like making it more them. So you 387 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 4: could get an occasion where you like, again, we could 388 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 4: own one hundred percent of a song, but Maley Cyrus 389 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 4: gets it and says, I rewrote the second verse. Okay, 390 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying. And that happens, and you know, 391 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: I'm cool with that, you know, but sometimes on an 392 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 4: occasion like apt you you know, more than the amount 393 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 4: of people that you would have loved to have been 394 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 4: a part of the song get involved and you're like, yo, man, 395 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 4: hits are hard. Excuse me, hits are hard to come by, 396 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 4: and however we get them, I'm gonna take them. 397 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: To that point, are you going into the studio with 398 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: artists thinking we gotta write ahead. 399 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 4: Every day every day in my life because I think 400 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 4: inten counts, you know, I think in ten counts. I 401 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 4: think in the process of making art, I think people 402 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 4: in making art for commerce, you have to think on 403 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 4: the biggest version of it. Now, if you don't want 404 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 4: to make art for commerce, yo, you could be a busker. 405 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 4: You can write your songs and play it in your car. 406 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 4: But if you're in the music business and you want 407 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 4: to be around, you want to be like Max Martin, 408 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 4: and you know you want to be around, you want 409 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 4: to be like Yo, I've been in the business for 410 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 4: thirty years and I'm still relevant and they still call me. 411 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 4: I think your intention every time you get in the 412 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 4: studio should be to write the biggest song of your 413 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 4: ability that I can't say, you know what I mean. 414 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 4: I can't say like, oh yo, this is going to 415 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 4: be a hit, okay, whatever, But I'm trying to write 416 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 4: the biggest song that I can write. Every day, every 417 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 4: chance I get in hopes that we get an APT 418 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 4: we get in about damn time we get a we 419 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 4: can't stop, we get a locked the way, you know, 420 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 4: And that's just that's just my goal. I can't speak 421 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 4: for everybody else. 422 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: Well, the songs that you just mentioned are obviously all 423 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: songs that you wrote on, but they're all very different stylistically. 424 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: You are chameleonic when it comes to songwriting across genre lions. 425 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 2: When you get into the studio with an artist or 426 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: you know that you're gonna be sending a demo of 427 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: something to an artist who's looking for tracks, Do you 428 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: feel like you have to cater to the style that 429 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: they already have or are you trying to push them 430 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: in new directions? How do you like to approach that 431 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: part of the songwriting process. 432 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 4: I am a pusher, so I'm kind of like I'm 433 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 4: making okay if you're not in a room with me, 434 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 4: and I'm like, yo, man, I've been listening to Steven's 435 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 4: music for like five years. I'm a fan. I love 436 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 4: his songs as a film. You know what Stephen hasn't 437 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 4: done that I would like to hear personally this And 438 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 4: by the way, sometimes I nail it. Sometimes I'm like whoa, Yes, 439 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 4: sometimes I bomb. It's like that was terrible. But you 440 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 4: know it's like so, I mean that's when i'm writing 441 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 4: on my own, I'm trying to come up with ideas 442 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 4: because I'm just trying to do like this is where 443 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 4: I think you should be going. And when I'm with 444 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 4: the artist and I get more information, it's a lot 445 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 4: more helpful and I'm a lot better, you know, with 446 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 4: Rosie being in a room and because I was just 447 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 4: like I kind of like study music from a psycho 448 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 4: psychology sense, so I was like, Okay, outside of BTS, 449 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 4: all the K pop songs have some Korean in it. Okay, 450 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 4: all of the Black Pink songs except for Ice Screamed 451 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 4: with Selena Gomez had Korean in it, and their biggest 452 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 4: songs have Korean in it. So the whole time, I'm like, Yo, 453 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 4: I think the right thing for them to do, even 454 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: if it's an English song is do something Korean, even 455 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 4: if it's small, because I think that's the that's the catch, 456 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 4: that's the like, hey, everybody, this is I know it 457 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 4: sounds familiar, but it's different. And she was in the 458 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 4: studio playing the game and I just was like, oh, wow, 459 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 4: when did you guys make that song. That's a pretty 460 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 4: cool song. She was like, that's not a song. What 461 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 4: do you mean? What do you mean it's not a song. No, 462 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 4: it's a game. It's a it's a drinking game that 463 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 4: we play in Korea. And I'm like, so, let me 464 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 4: ask you this. Every single person in Korea knows what 465 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 4: that is. She's like yeah. I was like, yeah, that's 466 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 4: the song to do today, all right, and you know, 467 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 4: so we ended up getting it from there, and I 468 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 4: just even when we bro I'm not gonna and I'm 469 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 4: not always right. But when we did AP we Can't Stop, 470 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 4: I was like, this is the biggest song ever. I 471 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 4: just was like, this is a hit and apt I 472 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 4: was like, Yo, this is the Macarena. I know. I 473 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 4: know for a fact that this song is the Macharna, 474 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 4: you know. And again, I'm just glad to work with 475 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 4: people that trust me when I'm crazy, you know what 476 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 4: I mean, because I'm not. I'm not always right, and 477 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 4: but the time is when I'm right, Man, what a time. 478 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 4: So I'm just grateful that you know, omer Amy Rosie Circuit, 479 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 4: Like everybody involved were like, okay, I guess you know, 480 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 4: and we went with it and now we're here. So 481 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 4: I love it, man. I like what I love. I 482 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 4: love it when a plan comes together right together. 483 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 484 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: I think one of the luxuries of being a creative 485 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: in any field, but particularly in music and especially in songwriting, 486 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: is the luxury of saying no. 487 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: And I'm curious for. 488 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: Those who can't see tyran as pumping as fist, I'm 489 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 2: curious if you do have that luxury at this point 490 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: in your career, and how often are you exercising that luxury. 491 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 4: I'm saying no all the time. I'm like, I'm in 492 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 4: Atlanta right now. Me and my family live in LA 493 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 4: but we're home. We're at our home in Atlanta right 494 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 4: now for Thanksgiving, and my family from the Virgin Islands 495 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 4: is here. My wife's family, you know, is here, and 496 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 4: we're having Thanksgiving and the kids are screaming and running 497 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 4: and and you know, I have a whole bunch of Yo, Toronto, 498 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 4: can you work this day and work that day? No O? 499 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 4: Can you do this? Can you do that? No? Now, 500 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 4: now I'm in a space in my career I honestly 501 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 4: want to work with I want to be a part 502 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: of like breaking new talent, you know what I mean, 503 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 4: I really do, you know. For for for one, it's 504 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 4: a new challenge for myself, Like, Yo, I wonder nobody 505 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 4: knows John and I'm gonna get in the studio with 506 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 4: John and We're gonna work and I'm gonna give him 507 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 4: songs and then whoa John is selling out arenas. Oh 508 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 4: my god. It's started with just ideas in the in 509 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 4: the back of the house, you know, And I'm super 510 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 4: interested in in in going forward with that, and then 511 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 4: with with like celebrities and superstars, you know. Again, obviously, 512 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 4: I know I'm in the music business. So you know, 513 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 4: if Sabrina Carpenter ever calls wink wink, you know what 514 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 4: I'm saying, I'll definitely come a run in. I just 515 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 4: want to go where I'm called work on things that 516 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 4: make me excited, you know, because I want to make 517 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 4: the music that I like, you know, and so far 518 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 4: the things that I've like has been pretty big. So 519 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 4: I think I have I think I got good taste, 520 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 4: and yeah, so I'm saying no to the things. When 521 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 4: I first started, I would say yes to everything because 522 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 4: I was like, I just want to make sure my 523 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 4: family is good. And now I'm kind of like, no, 524 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 4: I don't want to do that because I don't think 525 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 4: I can help. I think I want to help. So 526 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 4: if I'm like, no, I don't think I can, I 527 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 4: don't see myself making that the biggest so I'll I'll 528 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 4: just chill. That's how I feel. 529 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: A lot of people don't realize, especially if you're a 530 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: fan in today's age and if you're like a stand 531 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: quote unquote, I see this a lot, that. 532 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 3: The music business is a business. 533 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: You just reference this, and a lot of people have 534 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: to learn that hard way, especially when they're coming into 535 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: the industry. I'm curious if there's a moment that stands 536 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: out to you where you did get hit in the 537 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: face with that lesson that this really is a business 538 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: and it's not always about the music. 539 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean my first publishing deal, I was in 540 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 4: it for ten years and I couldn't get out of it, 541 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 4: and I and you know, and I and it really 542 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,479 Speaker 4: was like it just shook me up to like whoa 543 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 4: you know. And I signed it and I agreed to it, 544 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 4: and I was so and I would look, I was 545 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 4: excited that they gave me the money, and I spent 546 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: the money and I did all the stuff, and I 547 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 4: was like, yo, bro, you have to protect yourself because 548 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 4: it's bigger than you. Now. It's about your wife and 549 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 4: your kids and your you know, and the people in 550 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 4: your family. So I think my first pub deal, and 551 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 4: I mentioned my first pub deal taught me every lesson. Bro. 552 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 4: My first pub deal was one point five million. I was. 553 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 4: I spent all the money, owe the IRS four hundred 554 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 4: and sixty eight thousand dollars back taxes. The IRS froze 555 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 4: my accounts. I hadn't you know. My wife was a 556 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 4: stay at home mom. I was like, how are we 557 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: going to pay our bills? I was scared, hit list. 558 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. We were in the contract 559 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 4: for ten years and based on it because we signed 560 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: and by the way, it wasn't nobody did me dirty. 561 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 4: That's not what I'm saying, like, oh man, they signed me. No. No, 562 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 4: we signed the deal where the rules of music changed 563 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 4: because of streaming, and we were in a deal that 564 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 4: was based off of physicals and so it was hard 565 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: to get out of it because we were right at 566 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 4: the we were getting to the end of physical sales. 567 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 4: I tell people because listen, if I was back working 568 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 4: at Party City, would I be saying what I'm about 569 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 4: to say now. No, I would be like the music 570 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: business fucked the music business, and you know I would 571 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 4: have negative things to say. And that's me being fully transparent. 572 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 4: But it worked out for me. I love the way 573 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 4: my story played out and everything that happened that wasn't 574 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 4: the best. It taught me so much that it made 575 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 4: me the man, the creator and the business man that 576 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 4: I am now. And I'm doing really really well. Man. 577 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 4: I if I told you anything else, I would be lying, like, 578 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 4: life is amazing right now? 579 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: For sure that I'll leave you with one line question. 580 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: The songwriting world is very tough, it's very competitive. You 581 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: shared some of these issues that you went through yourself, 582 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: and there's always talk about songwriters' rights, and there are 583 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: a lot of younger writers or maybe even older writers 584 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: who are very vocal about the industry and how it 585 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: doesn't value the songwriter. Songwriters don't get paid the right amount. 586 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: They should get health insurance through XYZ, whatever it may be. 587 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 2: And a lot of songwriters have opinions on this, and 588 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: I'm curious where you land on that. How do you 589 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: think the industry could change in some ways to benefit 590 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: songwriters in the long run. 591 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 4: And I say this, and I stand on this. I've 592 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 4: never seen anybody sing a high hat, right, So, because 593 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 4: I understand, I work with producers and I understand the 594 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 4: work that goes into production. Now, now I'm going to 595 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 4: give you kind of like a long story of how 596 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 4: it's broken down, but just so you could understand, I'm 597 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 4: going to land and then I'll land a plane. When 598 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 4: I write a song, I come in, I write the song. 599 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 4: I'm like chairs of the freaking Week. And Okay, I 600 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 4: didn't write that song. I just you know, but that's 601 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 4: the first song I came in mind. So bam, I 602 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 4: write the song, I leave the studio, I go home. 603 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 4: I never have to come back. The producer circuit. He's 604 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 4: at the studio for seven days working on the song, 605 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 4: getting the beat right, getting the vocals right, making sure 606 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 4: it's good before it goes to mix. Might be two 607 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 4: three weeks before he gets it right. In those two 608 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 4: three weeks, I've written a song every single day. He 609 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 4: hasn't been able to make beats, and he's been working 610 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 4: on this one song. So the producer deserves everything they get, 611 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 4: not what the producers are getting is not I am 612 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 4: not saying what I need to get. What I am 613 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 4: saying is if you're gonna call somebody out house knowing 614 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 4: that if we write a song today, it's not coming 615 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 4: out for six months, I'm not seeing money for nine 616 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 4: months after that. If you want people to be able 617 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 4: to continue to write make good songs, build your artists 618 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 4: and make music, because you need music to make money 619 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 4: in the music business, I think it should. There should 620 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 4: It's only fair that you compensate those people some wage 621 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 4: of protection so they can continue to do their job. Now, 622 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 4: do I have the answer and the wage and the number. 623 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 4: I don't I'm not gonna sit here and be like, 624 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 4: this is what we're supposed to get and what we deserve, 625 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 4: and I am one of the fortunate songwriters that get 626 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 4: paid and all of that. You know, you know, And 627 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 4: I'm gonna say this like a you know, I have 628 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 4: a great lawyer and I have a great manager who 629 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 4: are like you know that yell and scream and be like, 630 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 4: we don't give up what you're talking about. Tehran is 631 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 4: gonna and I've worked really hard. But I'm talking for 632 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 4: the people who don't have the massive amount of hits 633 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 4: or mass amount of success of someone like myself. I mean, 634 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 4: just the people who are like, yo, bro, I want 635 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: to be a songwriter and I just want to make 636 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 4: a living. If you're going to keep somebody in a 637 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 4: studio for three weeks, four weeks, there should be some 638 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 4: kind of daily rate for that person or something to 639 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 4: give them the incentive when they go back home to 640 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 4: their girlfriends and they babies. It's like, babe, you know what, 641 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 4: I wrote five songs today, but I came home with 642 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 4: two hundred bucks. I'm not saying that's the right number. 643 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 4: I'm not giving any actual numbers or anything. I'm just saying, 644 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 4: because here's what could happen. You're gonna lose a lot 645 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 4: of songwriters because their lack of the lack of ability 646 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 4: for survival, not because they don't love it. It's like, realistically, 647 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 4: I can't survive based on what's happening now, and you're 648 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 4: gonna be like, yo, man, it's so hard. And when 649 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 4: it's a little more song when it's like songwriters are 650 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 4: less and less and the songs aren't as good, then 651 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 4: you're gonna have to pay really good songwriters way more 652 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: money because they're gonna understand ha, y'all screwed yourself. And 653 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 4: I feel like before we get to a place where 654 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 4: everybody's kind of negotiating against everybody, I think there's a 655 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 4: fair place that we can land, but everybody involved has 656 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 4: to be ready and willing to have the fair conversation. 657 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 4: I don't have the answer as to what we should get. 658 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 4: I don't have the answer as to but I know 659 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 4: that at this current moment that the way that it is, 660 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 4: it's unfair. And by the way, the music business, not 661 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 4: the creatives, the music business, this the stream and services. 662 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 4: They all agree. If you're in a room with people, 663 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 4: they're like, yo, man, we understand what SaaS go through. 664 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 4: We you know, and we're like, yo, we need to 665 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 4: figure out something that helps everybody to walk away feeling like. 666 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 4: One of my favorite things is a good deal is 667 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 4: where both parties walk away upset. So I think streaming 668 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 4: service should be mad, labels should be mad, and creative 669 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 4: should be mad, and chances are that's a good fucking 670 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 4: deal and we need to get there all right. 671 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 3: I think that's a great note to end on tarn 672 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 673 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening. Please leave us a review at the 674 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 5: podcast platform of your choice, and please send feedback on 675 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 5: this podcast and other Variety titles at podcasts at Variety 676 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 5: dot com. And don't forget to tune in next week 677 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 5: for another episode of Strictly Business. 678 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Rusty Gaston here. Thanks for sticking around. Before 679 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: we go, I want to give you another reminder to 680 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: check out our podcast, Thank a Songwriter, produced by Sony 681 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: Music Publishing, Nashville. It's your chance to hear the real 682 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: stories behind the songs you love, straight from the writers 683 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: who created them. 684 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 4: Now. 685 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: New episodes drop regularly, so please listen wherever you get 686 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: your podcast