WEBVTT -  Part Two: The Origins of Terror in Palestine

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, normally a podcast about

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<v Speaker 2>everything you don't know about the very worst people in

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<v Speaker 2>all of history, where I read a story about a

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<v Speaker 2>historical monster or some sort of terrible event to a

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<v Speaker 2>guest who's coming in cold this week. I'm sort of

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<v Speaker 2>doing my best to not embarrass myself in front of

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<v Speaker 2>the guest who knows a lot more about the subject

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<v Speaker 2>than that A lot of it. Doctor, doctor ocurred, welcome

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<v Speaker 2>back to the show. Thank you again for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>It is kind of cool that we have several like

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<v Speaker 1>PhDs on staff because James James Doubt also also a doctor,

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Joe.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I was declared a doctor by the

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<v Speaker 2>state of New Jersey one time.

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<v Speaker 1>My brother's a doctor that count there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they don't let doctorbe anything, which really sucks.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, he's an oncologist, so we're not even in

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<v Speaker 1>the same like lettering system.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what, you don't have prescription abilities, do

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<v Speaker 2>you don.

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<v Speaker 4>Unfortunately political science does not have that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would have gotten a policy PhD if I

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<v Speaker 2>could have prescribed stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Robert is not the time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's always the time relevant. Yeah, it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of relevant down do you want to plug anything up

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<v Speaker 2>front before we get back into the story.

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<v Speaker 4>There's the Handbook on Authoritarianism in the Air World, Yes,

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<v Speaker 4>out with Glimsbury Politics, open access, so people could just

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<v Speaker 4>google and read us.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds much better. One of the sources for

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<v Speaker 2>this that I read, which was useful in some ways,

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<v Speaker 2>is like the Oxford Handbook in the History of Terrorism,

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<v Speaker 2>which is very again, very useful for certain things, and

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<v Speaker 2>also like we're we're not going to get into this,

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<v Speaker 2>but in nineteen forty six, uh, I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>the Good which is like the militia associated with Bitar,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like a right wing Zionist group that is

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<v Speaker 2>today become like its descendant is Netanyahu's party, bomb the

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<v Speaker 2>King David Hotel and kill a bunch of people, and

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<v Speaker 2>the Oxford it's really fun when you like read what

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<v Speaker 2>the British said about it's an active terror, when you

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<v Speaker 2>read what like everyone at the time said about its

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<v Speaker 2>an act of terrorism, and then you read the Oxford

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<v Speaker 2>Encyclopedia of Terrorism, They're like, well, because the targets were

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<v Speaker 2>primarily governmental, we can't call this an act of terrorism.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, okay, but if it had been like Arab

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<v Speaker 2>nationalists who bombed a hotel, it would be.

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<v Speaker 4>Terrorism, right, yeah, right, academics, I can't even right. I'm

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<v Speaker 4>a good one. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Facts. We're going to talk about Vladimir Yebatinsky a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more in these episodes. So, as we said last time,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a guy who grows up in Odessa. Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>He is from a fairly young age, really concerned with, like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, fighting back against these programs by establishing Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>self defense groups. And after he's close for a period

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<v Speaker 2>of time with Theodore Herzal, but he also has some

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<v Speaker 2>like breakoffs with him and his issue with a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>He does not get along with most Zionists in his

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<v Speaker 2>day because he is really right wing. He does not

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<v Speaker 2>like these labor unions, he does not like the socialist

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<v Speaker 2>politics that a lot of these Zionists have. He's very

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<v Speaker 2>against that sort of stuff. And after Herzel dies in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen oh four, Yebtenski becomes seen as the leader among

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<v Speaker 2>right wing a leader among right wing Zionists. He's a

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<v Speaker 2>very big feat. He goes by Zeev Yebatinski most of

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<v Speaker 2>his life, but he's still known as Vladimir at this

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<v Speaker 2>point in time, we'll talk about why that change happens.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, after Herzel dies, he's a political leader

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<v Speaker 2>for a while, and then you know, the war starts

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<v Speaker 2>and he has to take a job as a newspaper editor.

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<v Speaker 2>And in nineteen fifteen he's reporting from North Africa and

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<v Speaker 2>he tours a refugee camp in Egypt for Jewish deportees

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<v Speaker 2>from Ottoman Palestine. And we'll talk about this later too.

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<v Speaker 2>The Ottomans start deporting a lot of these European Jews

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<v Speaker 2>from Palestine during the war and current entry in the

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<v Speaker 2>International Encyclopedia of the First War World War by Ari

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<v Speaker 2>Dubnov and Brian Horowitz quote soon thereafter, he reached the

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<v Speaker 2>conclusion that the Ottoman Turks would lose the war in

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<v Speaker 2>Palasin would fall into the hands of the Entan powers.

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<v Speaker 2>It was in this context that he came up with

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of encouraging Jews to volunteer for the British

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<v Speaker 2>army and secure a future Palestine for the Jews. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is unfortunately a really smart play for him. Tom right,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a really smart guy and this works very well

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<v Speaker 2>for him, Yeah, very much, unfortunately, And it is worth

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<v Speaker 2>noting like he does kind of see where things are going, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very accurate to say that the entent's going to

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<v Speaker 2>take over.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and Zionism would not have really survived without British support.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not at all. That's a big part of the

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<v Speaker 2>story we're gonna be telling today. So despite the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that he's gotten no personal military experience, he does not

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<v Speaker 2>actually join this Jewish legion, right. Jebtinski grows close to

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<v Speaker 2>a guy named Joseph Trumpeldoor, a Russian Zionist military veteran

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<v Speaker 2>who had fought in the Russo Japanese War which had

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<v Speaker 2>happened not that much earlier, and had been decorated by

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<v Speaker 2>the Czar for his like valorine combat and stuff. And

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<v Speaker 2>the two of them approach a general, a British general

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<v Speaker 2>named Sir John Grenfell Maxwell, who is commanding British troops

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<v Speaker 2>in Egypt, and they're like, hey, we want to take

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these guys who've been like brought to

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<v Speaker 2>kicked out of Palestine and put in camps in Egypt

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<v Speaker 2>are willing to fight for the British Empire against the Ottomans, Right,

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<v Speaker 2>And Maxwell's at first like, I don't know if this

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<v Speaker 2>is a good, like, you're not really soldiers. Is this

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<v Speaker 2>really going to help things at all? This might just

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<v Speaker 2>be more trouble than it's worth. But he also like,

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<v Speaker 2>there's not enough manpower, you know, especially not in that theater.

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<v Speaker 2>So he's not gonna like show he's not going to

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<v Speaker 2>turn down the potential to have a few thousand more

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<v Speaker 2>fighters on his hands necessarily either, right, all of these

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<v Speaker 2>and he brings this idea up to some of the

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<v Speaker 2>other British general officers, and they're all kind of reluctant.

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<v Speaker 2>As much as they want these fighters, they also don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to endorse the Zionist idea necessarily, And they also

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to endorse an offensive on Palestine at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what you know, these these people are really

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for, is to like, let us invade the place

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<v Speaker 2>we just got kicked out of, and the British don't

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<v Speaker 2>really want to do that at the moment. But Maxwell

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<v Speaker 2>agrees to form a Jewish volunteer force that will fight

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<v Speaker 2>alongside the British military and other parts of the Turkish front.

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<v Speaker 2>So as this is all happening, World War One escalates

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of sectarian hatred and anger that had been

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<v Speaker 2>slowly building in Palestine for years. The Ottomans, who are

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<v Speaker 2>paranoid about foreign spies and influence, issue a declaration immediately

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<v Speaker 2>after the start of the war that subjects of hostile

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<v Speaker 2>nations must leave the country. This caused immediate confusion. Some

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish residents in Palestine were exempted because they'd start and

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<v Speaker 2>I should say some Jewish residents who were had immigrated

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<v Speaker 2>from Europe are exempted because if you had come to

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<v Speaker 2>Palestine from Europe and you had become a naturalized citizen

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<v Speaker 2>of the Ottoman Empire, which there was a way to do,

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<v Speaker 2>then you didn't get deported, right, But if you hadn't

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<v Speaker 2>bothered to do that, they would deport you because the

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<v Speaker 2>Ottoman's argument was, well, that proves that you were not loyal, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because you had an opportunity and you didn't take it.

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<v Speaker 2>And part of why a lot of ashkinasm don't take

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunity to become naturalized Automan subjects is, as I've noted,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't want to integrate right, and this sometimes extends

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<v Speaker 2>to failing to make legal arrangements, and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these people are going to suffer because they don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to do that. During the war years, Ahmed Pasha, the

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<v Speaker 2>Ottoman military governor of the Levant, launched the first of

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<v Speaker 2>two major deportations of Jews from Jaffa in December of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen fourteen. This is called Black Thursday, that's what it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to be known, and this is the forced expulsion

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<v Speaker 2>of about six thousand Russian born Jewish immigrants. A total

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<v Speaker 2>of about two hundred and seventy seven Jews from Jaffa

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<v Speaker 2>are exiled to Alexandria, where many of them are put

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<v Speaker 2>in detainment camps. That are you know these You should

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<v Speaker 2>assume these are as nice as any enemy subject detainment

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<v Speaker 2>camps ever are in a war, especially World War One,

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<v Speaker 2>when people don't really have good medicine. Now, as I

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<v Speaker 2>noted in Episode one, foreign born Jews in Palestine had

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<v Speaker 2>previously often benefited from more support than Arab Jews, and

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<v Speaker 2>we see evidence of this fact even during the war,

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<v Speaker 2>in the fact that in May of nineteen fifteen, the

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<v Speaker 2>New York Sun published an investigation into the cruel treatment

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<v Speaker 2>or of they call them Palestinian Jews. These are mostly

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<v Speaker 2>European Jews, would come right by the Ottoman government, and

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<v Speaker 2>this outrage fuels Zionists like to marrige Yabatinski, who'd started

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<v Speaker 2>his career trying to organize Jewish self defense units in Russia. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the Zionist movement officially announced neutrality in the war and

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<v Speaker 2>moved its HQ to Copenhagen from Hamburg as a result,

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<v Speaker 2>because it doesn't really make much sense for the Zionists

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<v Speaker 2>to pick aside in World War One. Honestly didn't make

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<v Speaker 2>much of a sense for anyone to pick a side

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<v Speaker 2>in World War One. It was a stupid fucking war, right,

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<v Speaker 2>But Yabutinsky because he's realized that the Ottomans are going

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<v Speaker 2>to lose the war by nineteen fifteen, and he gets

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<v Speaker 2>the approval from Maxwell to create this voluntier force. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>by nineteen sixteen or so, this force is in the

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<v Speaker 2>field and it's starting to actually gain combat experience. It's

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<v Speaker 2>known initially as the Assyrian Jewish Refugee Corps. They're about

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<v Speaker 2>six hundred and fifty men in the unit at first.

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<v Speaker 2>The other nickname they're known by is the zion Mule

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<v Speaker 2>Corps or ZMC, and Jebatinski hates both of these nicknames,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, he considers them dishonorable and shameful to

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<v Speaker 2>his people. But if you know the British military, I

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<v Speaker 2>actually it's hard for me to interpret Zion Mule Corps

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<v Speaker 2>anything but kind of you say, it's like not super woke,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's a sign of fondness. If like that's how

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of interpret the way the British are naming them.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe other people feel I think there's like some debate

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<v Speaker 2>about that, but this is and when I say fondness,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't mean that in like a good way. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean in the way like the British were fond of

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of their African like like military like tried to.

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<v Speaker 4>Kind of like stuff r Cerchole.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, they call them fighting races. Right, that was like

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<v Speaker 2>a term the British used. Right, That's what I mean

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<v Speaker 2>by fond Right. Not to say it's not racist or anything.

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<v Speaker 2>Yebatinski never fought in the ZMC, but most of the

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<v Speaker 2>man power came from Russian born Jews who'd been expelled

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<v Speaker 2>by the Ottomans. Now the unit eventually receives a more

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<v Speaker 2>official name. It becomes the thirty eighth Battalion of Royal Fusiliers,

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<v Speaker 2>although it's still more often referred to as the Judaean

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<v Speaker 2>Regiment The unit motto was first to Judah, which should

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<v Speaker 2>spell out Yabatinsky's purpose for creating this unit. He wanted

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<v Speaker 2>Jews to receive combat experience and training so that they

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<v Speaker 2>could fight their neighbors in Palestine and the British government

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<v Speaker 2>if necessary, to ensure the of the state of Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>From the beginning, Vladimir is like, not only does this

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<v Speaker 2>give us combat experience and guns and might get us

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<v Speaker 2>in good with the British And that could help because

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<v Speaker 2>they'll be in charge next and we want them to

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<v Speaker 2>like us. But even if they don't, if we understand

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<v Speaker 2>how the British military works, then we can fight them

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<v Speaker 2>when we need to. Right, That's part of his gain.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a smart guy. This is really good strategy. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>The worst deportations from Palestine occur under Jemal Pasha in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventeen, and Jemal sees his work as necessary to

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<v Speaker 2>subjugate the budding Jewish national project in Palestine. He is

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<v Speaker 2>not just worried that these are unloyal, he's anti Zionists. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a big a motivating factor for this dude. And

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<v Speaker 2>because Jaffa was home to a large foreign born Jewish population,

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<v Speaker 2>who were slowly spinning tel Aviv up from a suburb

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<v Speaker 2>to a city. This is where their focus fell on

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<v Speaker 2>most heavily. Pasha saw himself as a warrior for Islaw

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<v Speaker 2>and he wanted to crush Zionism. But as this article

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<v Speaker 2>in the Journal of Israel Affairs by Glinda Abramson makes clear,

0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:00.199
<v Speaker 2>he hated Zionism because it was a nationalist movement out

0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.720
<v Speaker 2>of a desire to destroy the Jewish community in Palestine

0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.160
<v Speaker 2>as a whole. Quote. Like many Ottoman statesman, Jimal had

0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.680
<v Speaker 2>witnessed the nationalist movements of the Balkans of the late

0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.640
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and he was committed to

0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.120
<v Speaker 2>ensure that nothing similar would emerge in the Levant. While

0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.560
<v Speaker 2>he was in charge in Syria, they used to say,

0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.200
<v Speaker 2>if Shimal Pashus scratched his nose, he was thinking of

0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.560
<v Speaker 2>sending them to exile. If he stroked his beard, he

0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.720
<v Speaker 2>was thinking of whether or not to forgive them. However,

0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.520
<v Speaker 2>if he twirled his mustache, be afraid, for the conversation

0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.560
<v Speaker 2>was on a path that may lead to death. So

0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of a hard gal get bearings ug.

0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.280
<v Speaker 4>I mean just to say like Arabs see him as

0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.200
<v Speaker 4>extremely repressive, like Palestinians see him as extremely repressive. So

0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.439
<v Speaker 4>he has like different types of repression for different communities.

0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that is and that's the really important point.

0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.920
<v Speaker 2>He is not anti Zionists because he's racist. He's also

0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.800
<v Speaker 2>anti Arab nationalists. He's anti anyone who doesn't want the

0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 2>other exactly right, exactly. That's this guy's big issue, right,

0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:58.559
<v Speaker 2>not to say that. I'm sure he believed things that

0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 2>we would call racists, but that's not his motivation. Motivation

0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.479
<v Speaker 2>is the Ottoman Empire. Right now, one of the diplomats

0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.160
<v Speaker 2>who fought hardest to stop Pasha from doing these violent

0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.959
<v Speaker 2>deportations was and this shows you how different the times were,

0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.920
<v Speaker 2>the German consul to the Ottoman Empire, because the Germans

0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.800
<v Speaker 2>and the Ottomans are allies, and the German guy is like,

0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.000
<v Speaker 2>you guys are really mean to these people.

0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, oh well that's cynic.

0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But Pasha would not be swayed. He believed that

0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Zionists wanted to quote tear part of the body of

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.240
<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Empire off, which they did, and he was

0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.319
<v Speaker 2>a diehard Automan loyalist. As a result of his persecution

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.080
<v Speaker 2>and the wartime shortages, investment in the Zionist project overseas

0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and in Palestine halted during this period. One Jewish exile

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 2>during this time described the war riors in Palestine this way,

0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.160
<v Speaker 2>and I want to emphasize his description would also describe

0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.640
<v Speaker 2>how most Arab Muslims would experience the same period of time,

0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.840
<v Speaker 2>as they were also disfavored, unloyal minorities fighting an active

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.760
<v Speaker 2>war against the Ottoman Empire. Quote. They took products from

0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the shops, flowers, sugar, rice, and so on. They ordered

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.600
<v Speaker 2>the bakers to bake bread without payment until there was

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.840
<v Speaker 2>no bread or flour left in the city. They ordered

0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.200
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of laborers and workers to work without payment,

0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 2>and their families went hungry. In addition, they grabbed everyone

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 2>walking in the street, roped them together, and took them

0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.760
<v Speaker 2>to dig pits, once again without payment or food. They

0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.319
<v Speaker 2>confiscated the warehouses of large and small trees to make

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 2>boxes to carry the stolen oranges to their camps. They

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:21.959
<v Speaker 2>took all the leather and skins from the warehouse to

0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>make shoes for the army. So yeah, Outam and Empire

0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:26.000
<v Speaker 2>are not cool.

0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, my family history, Like I don't know because I'm

0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.199
<v Speaker 4>not a historian, but I don't know if it counts

0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 4>as a famine, but they remember this time as like

0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:35.880
<v Speaker 4>famine like conditions.

0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh, it is a famine. People starved to dead. Yeah, Jews, Muslims,

0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people starved to the population of Palestine

0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 2>drops by I think like four or five percent during

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.720
<v Speaker 2>this period. Disease too, is rampant. You know, this is

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.240
<v Speaker 2>not just Palestine diseases. There's a horrible fucking plague that

0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:51.880
<v Speaker 2>comes at the end of World War One that kills

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:57.160
<v Speaker 2>fucking millions and millions of people. Right, So Jimmel dissolves

0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.360
<v Speaker 2>the few units of Jewish guards that had existed to

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 2>protect you Wish neighborhoods. Doctors were conscripted and taken to

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.760
<v Speaker 2>the front, so hospitals had to close, which also caused

0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 2>and helped make worse massive outbreaks of dysentery and typhoid

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>that only got worse as soldiers came home from the war.

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:13.880
<v Speaker 2>So by the time of the armises, Yeah, here's the

0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>exact number of Palestine's population had fallen by six percent in

0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.520
<v Speaker 2>four years. That is catastrophics.

0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that is kind of strong, like yeah.

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, that's the equivalent of like what like

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.240
<v Speaker 2>twenty or thirty million Americans and four years dead something

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:29.840
<v Speaker 2>like that, if like it were to happen here at

0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 2>least like this just by back of the hop but

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>like a lot, right, that's a massive number of people

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to die.

0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when nineteen nine and obviously we all lived through.

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Think about how the pandemic, what it did to American society.

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.200
<v Speaker 2>Did it make people like more understanding of each other

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.040
<v Speaker 2>and like less angry?

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they were still messed up. I don't know.

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, imagine if it had killed like three thousand times

0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>as many people proportionally or something like that, right, Yeah,

0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, when nineteen nineteen dawned, the Ottoman Empire was

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 2>no more. In the Balfour Declaration meant the new British

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Mandate had promised to bring some sort of Jewish state

0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 2>into being. Frustration and rage over this was mixed with

0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.640
<v Speaker 2>nationalist ambitions from Arab Muslims and Christians alike, who grew

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.160
<v Speaker 2>more hostile to both the British and the Zionists. Many

0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>longtime residents of Palestine were distraught by the conflict that

0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.600
<v Speaker 2>came alongside nationalism. In his book Lives in Common, Clin

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 2>writes that members of the old Sephardic Jewish community in

0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Jerusalem often expressed a sense of sadness and bewilderment about

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.720
<v Speaker 2>the death of the old days. Quote. Nationalisms suddenly intruded

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 2>on their lives and those of their Muslim neighbors and

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.800
<v Speaker 2>imposed its hatreds and wars on them. The construction of

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 2>the national eye involved the rejection of prior identities, including

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that of being Arab Jews, and that it's both really

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>bleak and it's also why as this goes on, I

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 2>was trying very hard to differentiate between European born Jewish immigrants,

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Sephardic Arab Jews. Increasingly it's just Arabs and Jews in

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 2>terms of how people talk about it and think about it,

0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and how the international community talks about and thinks about it.

0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 2>That hasn't happened yet, certainly not right, not by nineteens

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.800
<v Speaker 2>right exactly and flattening right, and that that is happening,

0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and that's you know, obviously, there's a genocide going on

0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>in Gaza right now, and genocide is not the right

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.160
<v Speaker 2>word for just like the end of an identity. But

0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't think there is a good word for what

0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 2>happens when something like that occurs, right, I don't know it.

0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't really know what to refer to that as honestly.

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's not even assimilation, because it's like a direct

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 4>result of political people there.

0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, exactly.

0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:39.920
<v Speaker 4>So.

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 2>The war's end also brings an influx of new foreign

0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 2>born Zionist leaders, as well as a return of thousands

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.080
<v Speaker 2>of exiled Jews, including many who came back with arms

0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and military experience. Right by the end of the war,

0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.720
<v Speaker 2>Jebatinski's Judean Division numbered more than five thousand men. The

0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 2>International Encyclopedia of the First World War summarizes their service

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.960
<v Speaker 2>this way, Gebatinski in pattern. It's one of the leaders,

0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.880
<v Speaker 2>one of the direct leaders of the forces. Relationships with

0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.159
<v Speaker 2>the Egyptian Expeditionary Force higher command were not free of friction,

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.040
<v Speaker 2>as it clearly contained a number of anti Semitic officers

0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.879
<v Speaker 2>who made the lives of the legionnaires difficult. At various points.

0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 2>The legion did not arrive for service until after General

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Allenby's conquest of Jerusalem. They proved useful in the final

0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 2>battles and then in guarding POWs. In nineteen nineteen, the

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.359
<v Speaker 2>British government began to decommission the Legion. Jebatinski struggled for

0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:28.000
<v Speaker 2>the Legion's survival, claiming that the absence of Jewish armed

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:32.600
<v Speaker 2>forces would lead to violence against Jews. And you know,

0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:34.879
<v Speaker 2>first off, one of the reasons why there's conflict, and

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.160
<v Speaker 2>this is going to be relevant as much as overall.

0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.960
<v Speaker 2>The British Mandate is way definitely going to side with

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.840
<v Speaker 2>the Zionists and enable them, especially in this period. There's

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.679
<v Speaker 2>at least an equal number of British military officers who

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.080
<v Speaker 2>are more siding with the Arabs and are very much

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.440
<v Speaker 2>hesitant to embrace like the Zionist vision of things, and

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.119
<v Speaker 2>who certainly want like they don't want it to just

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 2>be Muslim states, but they want integrated Arabs or independent

0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:57.879
<v Speaker 2>Arabic states.

0:17:57.960 --> 0:17:58.160
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.120
<v Speaker 2>This comes out of like elo arts and stuff. There's

0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.439
<v Speaker 2>a lot of British officers who are not in this

0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.200
<v Speaker 2>period of time bought into the Zionist thing. The British

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Mandate though, is very much going to side with the

0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.199
<v Speaker 2>Zionists over Arab nationalists in many cases, not that they

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.440
<v Speaker 2>don't also fight them kill them. There's a lot of

0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>violence between the British Mandate and some of these different

0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Zionist groups, as we'll talk about two. So the fact

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:28.320
<v Speaker 2>that Yabatinski thinks that if this military unit is decommissioned,

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 2>it's going to lead to violence against the Jews. His

0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 2>fears there would seem to be reinforced by the escalating

0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 2>violence of the Ottoman state near the end of the war,

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.440
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that this causes escalating nationalist hostilities too.

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 2>One of the major Muslim festivals we talked to us

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.600
<v Speaker 2>a bit was Nebi Musa right, and this is named

0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.040
<v Speaker 2>after a holy site near Jericho said to be the

0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.600
<v Speaker 2>tomb of Moses. Palestinian Muslims would celebrate for seven days,

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.600
<v Speaker 2>starting just before Good Friday, and in prior years, as

0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.520
<v Speaker 2>I've talked about, and we read a quote about this

0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 2>in the first episode, the festival was often attended by

0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 2>all faiths, as one Jewish resident the Holy City recalled,

0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.360
<v Speaker 2>a warm and happy atmosphere prevailed among us. We knew

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.399
<v Speaker 2>that they were honoring the memory of a prophet and

0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.159
<v Speaker 2>a man of God, whom we also accepted, and that

0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.119
<v Speaker 2>is obviously one reason why there's so much religious solidarity.

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 2>Muslims think Moses was pretty important too, rite, so it

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't gotten this in previous years. It would make you

0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 2>feel really comforted, right that, like, well, these people believe

0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.679
<v Speaker 2>something different, but we have some commonalities. But during the

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.399
<v Speaker 2>war things had curdled and in nineteen nineteen, by nineteen

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen the Nebi Musa celebration, a lot of the speaking

0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.760
<v Speaker 2>around it, because they're speakers at these events, right, were

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:39.360
<v Speaker 2>really anti Zionists and anti British right because they're Arab nationalists, right,

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.920
<v Speaker 2>and Arabs are furious that their own nationalist aims have

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:45.480
<v Speaker 2>been thwarted. We talk about this in the Lawns episodes,

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 2>but the Arabs get really fucked over by the British

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.680
<v Speaker 2>after fighting for independence. You know, they had fought as

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.680
<v Speaker 2>well alongside Britain and the Ottomans, and World War One

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.119
<v Speaker 2>had ended with the Balfour Declaration, but it had not

0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.399
<v Speaker 2>ended with a similar commitment to their aims though they

0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.000
<v Speaker 2>had also fought right and so a lot, a lot

0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.040
<v Speaker 2>of these people think that the new British mandate is

0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>giving preferential treatment to foreign born Zionist immigrants simply because

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.320
<v Speaker 2>they're also seen as being European, and they are. In

0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.439
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenty, things get valid, Yeah, yeah, you know what

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 2>else is valid? Sponsors there's there's not a This is like.

0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 1>A horrible episode to break this.

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>This is a really bad episode for a break transition. Yeah,

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>I know we're.

0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Doing We're doing our best here, friends.

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.960
<v Speaker 2>We're back. So as I said, after the war, nineteen

0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen kind of the first post war Nebbi Mussa festival,

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it's known as like well, there's a lot of like

0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>anti Zionist and anti British Mandate speeches and things get

0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.360
<v Speaker 2>really tense, and there's especially like uncomfortable for a lot

0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.960
<v Speaker 2>of the and particularly a lot of the even the

0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 2>non Zionists like Jewish attendees the celebrations, and in nineteen

0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>twenty the next year, things get uglear. Several Arab leaders

0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.360
<v Speaker 2>give speeches against Scionist immigration, but it's not really known

0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.440
<v Speaker 2>what the trigger is before rioting breaks out. And this

0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 2>is like really bad. But you'll notice, as I read

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the death toll, this is not like a one sided thing,

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 2>right like these whatever else happened, it seems like the

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.160
<v Speaker 2>amount of force being deployed was, if not entirely accurate.

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Neither of these size has like a massive like edge

0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 2>on the other in terms of their ability to deploy violence.

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Five Jews are killed in the rioting, along with four

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.480
<v Speaker 2>Arab Muslims, and hundreds of people are injured. And the

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.720
<v Speaker 2>wake of the riot, a number of local Muslim leaders

0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.239
<v Speaker 2>condemn the violence, but a great deal of damage had

0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 2>already been done. It's very hard to restore the kind

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.080
<v Speaker 2>of trust that had existed before something like this. And

0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:49.000
<v Speaker 2>there's some really heartbreaking quotes in Lives in Common with

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.159
<v Speaker 2>especially as like some there are some communities that just

0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.760
<v Speaker 2>like clear out entirely, and like the Jews, they're move

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 2>in with and start forming in these communities, especially that

0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 2>had been more integrated of like Sephardic Jews, and like

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.840
<v Speaker 2>move in and start living in common with these like

0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Zionist communities because they don't feel safe anymore, and that

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.359
<v Speaker 2>decreases the amount of solidarity and the amount of understanding

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.040
<v Speaker 2>between these communities, and it just everything is going to

0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.520
<v Speaker 2>get a lot uglier in the wake of this. Right,

0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the riots also provide Yabotinsky with an excuse to do

0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:22.919
<v Speaker 2>what he did best, which is form local self defense

0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.439
<v Speaker 2>militias and arm them with illegally gotten firearms, and he

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.320
<v Speaker 2>does that right Like. Yabutinsky's very active during the riots,

0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:34.359
<v Speaker 2>and he is arrested immediately afterwards by the British and

0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.200
<v Speaker 2>charged with illegally using British military forces because he'd gathered

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these guys who think in some cases

0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.600
<v Speaker 2>were still British soldiers and use them in his militias,

0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 2>and he'd taken a lot of weapons that did not

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.639
<v Speaker 2>belong to him. So he is arrested and sentenced to

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.840
<v Speaker 2>imprisonment in Oker. Like most militant true believers, prison only

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.960
<v Speaker 2>increased his sense of certainty in what he was doing.

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.040
<v Speaker 2>He changes his name during this brief prison sentence from

0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Vladimir to Ziev, which is a Hebrew name ze apostrophe

0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.000
<v Speaker 2>ev is how it's at least it's anglicized. The spelling

0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.439
<v Speaker 2>is usually anglicized as and he's only in prison for

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:11.720
<v Speaker 2>three months, So again we see would a similar guy

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.479
<v Speaker 2>who is an Arab Muslim have only gotten what happens

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.720
<v Speaker 2>for the same crime or when you have been hunger shot?

0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly, So we're already seeing and this is going

0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:22.840
<v Speaker 2>to tell massively the fact that and that which you

0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 2>brought up is really important, the fact that because there

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:29.239
<v Speaker 2>are militant Arab nationalist groups, right, and you know these

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:33.120
<v Speaker 2>are like Palestinian Muslims, and when they do things, they

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:35.920
<v Speaker 2>very much often tend to either get killed or imprisoned

0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>and always have their guns taken away, whereas that doesn't

0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.199
<v Speaker 2>always happen to these Zionist groups and their leaders, and

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.399
<v Speaker 2>it allows them to continue building power and organization in

0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.040
<v Speaker 2>a way that is forced to exactly exactly.

0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean they not only killed them, they killed

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 5>them publicly. Yeah, and they really you know, decimated political

0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 5>leadership during this time. So like the anti British Man

0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.879
<v Speaker 5>sentiment was very much materially connected to the fact that

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:05.720
<v Speaker 5>people were feeling extremely repressed.

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.879
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely absolutely, And you don't get me wrong. Most of

0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:12.159
<v Speaker 2>the Ziatists really hate the Mandate too. It's just they

0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.640
<v Speaker 2>hate it because, like it's not giving them everything they

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:15.400
<v Speaker 2>want at once.

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.200
<v Speaker 4>Right, exactly different reasons.

0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean there are all there are also, like

0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the Mandate will assassinate some Zionist leaders. That does happen too,

0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.199
<v Speaker 2>And likewise, there are Zionist groups that are assassing a

0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:29.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of British officials. That happens a ton, mostly after

0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the period we're talking about, but it's

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>starting in this time. So the Hashimer was reformed after

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.560
<v Speaker 2>the war, and in nineteen twenty and it's an extension

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:40.400
<v Speaker 2>called the Hashimer, called the Haganah was created. In its

0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>initial conception, the Haganah was a defensive militia and you'll

0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.359
<v Speaker 2>see that as I and like the Oxford Encyclopedia terrorism

0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 2>was like, it's not really a terrorist group. It was

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:53.760
<v Speaker 2>a purely defensive militia. It was defensive in its main orientation.

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:56.840
<v Speaker 2>But purely is not at all accurate, right, really not

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 2>act unless.

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:01.440
<v Speaker 5>You count ethnic cleansing as like defensive self defensive.

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Haganah secret nineteen twenty four constitution declared that

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:09.679
<v Speaker 2>its objective was to protect the Jewish community in Palestine.

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.639
<v Speaker 2>But again I should remind you that the precursor Hagana's

0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.720
<v Speaker 2>motto of the Hagana's motto was Judeo was lost by

0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>blood and fire and will rise again by blood and fire.

0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:20.480
<v Speaker 2>So while the Hagana is on paper at defensive force,

0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.399
<v Speaker 2>over the years they work clandestinely with other militias and

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.720
<v Speaker 2>gangs and also clandestinely form other militians and gangs that

0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>are very much offensive, and they also do offensive as

0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:34.040
<v Speaker 2>we'll talk about themselves. In nineteen twenty three, Ziev Jabatinski,

0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:37.200
<v Speaker 2>now living in Riga, founded a right wing youth movement

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:40.120
<v Speaker 2>called Bitar, which was opposed to both the older left

0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.400
<v Speaker 2>wing labor movement focused Zionist groups and defensive militias and

0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:47.359
<v Speaker 2>the British Mandate. And again Bitar is the precursor to

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:51.439
<v Speaker 2>Benjamin Nettan Yahoo's Lukud Party, right like they therefore follows

0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the other right there. Yeah, they're fascists and there's a

0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.159
<v Speaker 2>lot of there's a really good article called Jabatinski the

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Fascist Right that talks about a lot of the similarities

0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:03.320
<v Speaker 2>between some of these and especially Mussolini's fascist groups because

0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:06.919
<v Speaker 2>don't they wear shirts. Yes, they do wear brown shirts,

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.479
<v Speaker 2>and there are attempts to work with and they do

0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:12.440
<v Speaker 2>work with two A degree Mussolini's government, until Mussolini gets

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:14.320
<v Speaker 2>so inbed with Hitler that they have to push more

0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:18.560
<v Speaker 2>anti Semitic laws. Like there's a lot of sympathy with

0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.520
<v Speaker 2>the the Italian fascists and some of these these right

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.600
<v Speaker 2>wing Zionist groups. That's a really important thing that's going

0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 2>on right now too. I'm not talking about it enough

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:28.159
<v Speaker 2>in these episodes. There's so much to get over, but

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:30.119
<v Speaker 2>that is a really important thing that you should know

0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.480
<v Speaker 2>that when I say right wing, I don't mean like

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:36.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of conservative on tax policy, right, that's what I'm talking.

0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 4>Healthcare policies are a little different.

0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:42.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, they're they're not. Yeah, they're they're they're they're fascist,

0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:47.479
<v Speaker 2>like proto fascist fastest you know, you could. Academics will quibble, like,

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a lot of similarities. They're wearing brown shirts, right,

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.640
<v Speaker 2>and what else do you need? It out there? And

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 2>as the twenties roared on, violence in the Holy Land

0:26:57.200 --> 0:26:59.280
<v Speaker 2>only grew more common, and it takes a bunch of

0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.359
<v Speaker 2>different forms, from street fights between gangs. And some of

0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:04.600
<v Speaker 2>these are you could call them Arab nationalist gangs and

0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Zionist gangs. Some of are just like gangs of people

0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:08.280
<v Speaker 2>who are like Jewish and Muslim and live in towns

0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and they're like pissed, right, they're teenagers fighting or whatever.

0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:14.359
<v Speaker 2>And some of them are organized militant gangs and terrorist

0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>groups that are doing as targeted murders and assassinations of

0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:20.159
<v Speaker 2>each other. Right. And of course there's also riots periodically,

0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of these riots will wind up targeting

0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Jewish neighborhoods. That happens repeatedly over the years, and it

0:27:26.160 --> 0:27:30.440
<v Speaker 2>really hard. The violence and the constant temple violence hardens

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people, and it also causes a lot

0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:35.679
<v Speaker 2>of people to change their minds and beliefs. And in

0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:37.680
<v Speaker 2>many ways this is in a tragic and it makes

0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>them a lot meaner and more aggressive, but not always.

0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:43.320
<v Speaker 2>And this brings me to a really tragic and really

0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:49.200
<v Speaker 2>complicated story. Have you ever heard of Jacob Israel de Haan? No,

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 2>this I'm glad to get to tell you because I

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.040
<v Speaker 2>hadn't note about this guy either, and he's a really

0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:57.440
<v Speaker 2>interesting fellow. So Jacob was born in eighteen eighty one

0:27:57.440 --> 0:27:59.639
<v Speaker 2>in the Netherlands, just as the first wave of Zionist

0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:02.359
<v Speaker 2>my grace from Europe began. He became a teacher and

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:04.639
<v Speaker 2>a writer, and he published his first novel in nineteen

0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:06.440
<v Speaker 2>oh four, which is again the same year as The

0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Kitchen of Pagram. This book was a fictional account of

0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 2>the author's homosexual relationship with a real scholar, Arnold Alatrino,

0:28:14.320 --> 0:28:17.359
<v Speaker 2>who was married, although a public defender of homosexuality. So

0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>what people generally think is happening is that Dehan is

0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:22.560
<v Speaker 2>having an affair with this guy who's like publicly married

0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:24.920
<v Speaker 2>but also like an advocate for queer people and is

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:28.159
<v Speaker 2>queer himself, and he writes a book fictionalizing it but

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:31.480
<v Speaker 2>using the real dude's name, which is kind of fucked up.

0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Like it's really messy. This man is messy. Dehn is

0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:38.200
<v Speaker 2>considered one of the greatest poets in the history of

0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:40.880
<v Speaker 2>the Netherlands, right, but he's like, he is messy. This

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:44.959
<v Speaker 2>man is so fucking messy. He gets fired from his

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:46.960
<v Speaker 2>newspaper gig as a result of this book because it

0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:50.520
<v Speaker 2>causes like a real problem, and also his newspaper get

0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:52.720
<v Speaker 2>writing a children's column, so the fact that he's written

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:55.600
<v Speaker 2>this book does not make him seem like the best

0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:58.680
<v Speaker 2>guy to be writing this column because he's like publicly

0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.640
<v Speaker 2>accused a guy of like, you know, it's it's it's

0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:04.480
<v Speaker 2>it's messy. They also have to alter the book to

0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:06.880
<v Speaker 2>like take the name of an actual married dude out anyway,

0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and his fiance because he has a fiance that he's

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:12.120
<v Speaker 2>like marrying to like hide the fact that he's gay.

0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.600
<v Speaker 2>She like actually helps buy up all the copies of

0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 2>his original books get rid of this. In nineteen oh seven,

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:24.600
<v Speaker 2>de Han married a gentile woman and published a second

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.440
<v Speaker 2>This had been the fiance and published a second novel

0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 2>about us. And so, first off, by the way, you

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:31.040
<v Speaker 2>should see, he marries a gentile woman. This is not

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:33.680
<v Speaker 2>a guy who is a super strict believer. I don't

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:35.640
<v Speaker 2>even think he would call himself a believer in nineteen

0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 2>oh seven. Really he's Jewish, you know, is an identity

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>as an ethnicity. But he's not really faithful in this

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:44.120
<v Speaker 2>period of time. So he publishes a second novel, and

0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.040
<v Speaker 2>this one is about a sado masochistic relationship between a

0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 2>man and a boy. Now this is going to be

0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:52.520
<v Speaker 2>relevant to talking about Dehn. But like in this period

0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>of time and a lot of countries, pedophilia and homosexuality

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.120
<v Speaker 2>are the exact same thing under the law, and that

0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:03.080
<v Speaker 2>causes some real the uncomfortable situations and some really uncomfortable

0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 2>writing from a number of figures European figures in this

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:07.840
<v Speaker 2>period of time, to Han is not the only one.

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:09.560
<v Speaker 2>And we don't really know, like did he was he

0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 2>actually like a pederist? Is this just like a thing

0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:14.320
<v Speaker 2>he wrote about? Because you know, cultury, a lot of

0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:16.280
<v Speaker 2>weird stuff's going on at the time. I don't really

0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:20.840
<v Speaker 2>know how to entirely delineate all of that right, But

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:24.239
<v Speaker 2>this is a complicated man. He is very queer, and

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 2>he is very much in the counterculture of his day.

0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:30.240
<v Speaker 2>You could not be much more in the counterculture of

0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>his day than this guy is. So, despite some questionable

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.640
<v Speaker 2>decision making, he gets a doctorate of law in nineteen sixteen.

0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:38.959
<v Speaker 2>But to Han can't find prestigious work as a lawyer,

0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:42.120
<v Speaker 2>so he starts writing and publishing poetry, and his work

0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:46.200
<v Speaker 2>is noted I'm not a good judge of poetry from

0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:48.920
<v Speaker 2>this part of the world, but his work is noted

0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 2>as both being very Jewish and very sexual. Right, he's

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:55.920
<v Speaker 2>super horny, and he's he's like very much chimber of

0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:59.200
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish community and influenced by it. Right, He's very controversial,

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.880
<v Speaker 2>but his poems are white celebrated today He's still considered

0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:04.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the best poems the Netherlands ever produced. And

0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:06.400
<v Speaker 2>he starts to develop a degree of respect as a

0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 2>public eccentric. Right, he kind of crosses over from being, Oh,

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 2>this guy is someone you don't want to This guy

0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>is like a weirdo who's into some stuff that we

0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:15.680
<v Speaker 2>don't approve of, and you don't want to talk to him.

0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:18.200
<v Speaker 2>To this guy's a weirdo. We celebrate because he's a

0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:21.000
<v Speaker 2>great artist, right, he crosses that barrier, you know, during

0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:21.840
<v Speaker 2>this kind of period of.

0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:25.320
<v Speaker 1>Time, because he's very Juish and very horny, very Jewish,

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.840
<v Speaker 1>very horny, that is how people describe to Han, and

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:29.600
<v Speaker 1>very queer.

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:32.520
<v Speaker 2>He visited Russia near the end of the Tzardom, and

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:34.760
<v Speaker 2>this really seems to have an influence on him, right,

0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:37.560
<v Speaker 2>seeing how Jewish people are treated in Russia. He visits

0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 2>prisons and seeing how prisoners are treated by the czar,

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:43.280
<v Speaker 2>he becomes an activist, right, and his experiences in the East,

0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:46.240
<v Speaker 2>Lee didn't become both a Zionist and an observant Jew.

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:49.240
<v Speaker 2>And this is He's also nearing middle age, so maybe

0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:52.320
<v Speaker 2>he becomes Orthodox during this time mid life crisis.

0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:53.240
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Per an article Inherits by David Green, in nineteen nineteen,

0:31:56.960 --> 0:32:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Dehan decided to immigrate from Amsterdam to Jerusalem. A letter

0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to British Zionist leader Heim Weizmann, he wrote, with typical

0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 2>self assurance, that I am not leaving Holland to improve

0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:10.280
<v Speaker 2>my condition. Neither materially nor intellectually. Will life in Palestine

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.360
<v Speaker 2>be the equal to my life here. I am one

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:14.480
<v Speaker 2>of the best poets of my generation and the only

0:32:14.520 --> 0:32:17.320
<v Speaker 2>important Jewish national poet Holland has ever had. It is

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:20.240
<v Speaker 2>difficult to give up all this. So first off, you

0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:21.280
<v Speaker 2>can say this is the guy who was a high

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:23.880
<v Speaker 2>opinion of himself. And second this is a guy who

0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:27.160
<v Speaker 2>seems very committed to the Zionist project. But after he

0:32:27.200 --> 0:32:29.719
<v Speaker 2>moves to Palestine, he lives through these years we've been

0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 2>talking about of rap. He comes there as the violence

0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:34.520
<v Speaker 2>is starting to escalate. He sees the riots, and he

0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:38.360
<v Speaker 2>sees these assassinations and counter assassinations and these beatings as

0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:41.280
<v Speaker 2>he's teaching law and writing for a Dutch newspaper, and

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:44.720
<v Speaker 2>he starts to become critical of the Zionist project right

0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:47.440
<v Speaker 2>as a result of what he's seeing, this violence really

0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 2>turns him off of it. Eventually he meets an anti

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Zionist rabbi who is This guy is also a really

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:58.400
<v Speaker 2>interesting figure, Joseph heim Sonenfeld. Sonenfeld is the guy, the

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:02.840
<v Speaker 2>rabbi who founded an ultra orthodox anti Zionist community in

0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Palestine called Ida Haridit and was it spokesman. And he

0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:11.480
<v Speaker 2>was also, like Dehan, really controversial. Sexually, he gets accused

0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>of being a pedophile. Today, I don't know how accurate

0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:17.440
<v Speaker 2>those allegations are. He is definitely a guy who publicly

0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:20.280
<v Speaker 2>made a habit of trying to shock Christian morals as

0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:23.120
<v Speaker 2>a protest against homophobia. And I don't know how to

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:25.960
<v Speaker 2>judge him accurately in terms of what he's done, in

0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>part because both of these guys are anti Zionists, there's

0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:30.640
<v Speaker 2>also a lot of propaganda against them. I don't know

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:32.960
<v Speaker 2>what's true and what's not about their sexualities and what

0:33:33.000 --> 0:33:37.320
<v Speaker 2>they did or didn't do. In nineteen twenty two, Dehan

0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:40.880
<v Speaker 2>takes a case to defend a Hareadi political movement protesting

0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 2>against the need to pay an excise tax that Zionist

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:47.360
<v Speaker 2>authorities had placed on Matso. So these are anti Zionist

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Jews in Palestine who do not want to pay an

0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:51.680
<v Speaker 2>excise tax that the Zionists want them to pay. Right,

0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:54.400
<v Speaker 2>he represents them in court, I think successfully, and he

0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.320
<v Speaker 2>starts becoming more and more of an anti Zionist activist

0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:00.920
<v Speaker 2>in Palestine. And because remember, this guy is a celebrity.

0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I know when I say I a famous poet, that

0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:06.320
<v Speaker 2>doesn't sound famous today, in like nineteen twenty two, a

0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:09.120
<v Speaker 2>famous poet could be pretty goddamn famous. And Dahn is

0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:13.360
<v Speaker 2>very famous, and so he starts meeting with European political

0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:17.279
<v Speaker 2>figures and talking about anti Zionism, and because he's such

0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:19.879
<v Speaker 2>a beloved artist, this really starts to worry a lot

0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:23.680
<v Speaker 2>of Zionists in Palestine. He also meets with Hussein bin Ali,

0:34:23.840 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>the king of now Saudi Arabia, and they start talking

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:29.440
<v Speaker 2>about forming a Palestinian state that would be like multi

0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:32.759
<v Speaker 2>racial or religious, multi ethnic, you know, like not a

0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Zionist date right now, Obviously de Han's not anti Semitic.

0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:39.080
<v Speaker 2>He wants the British out, and he wants Palestine to

0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:41.760
<v Speaker 2>be an indicopendent country. He just is no longer a Zionist.

0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.480
<v Speaker 2>He thinks that Jews and Muslims and Christians and presumably

0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:47.080
<v Speaker 2>atheist weirdos like him and his friends should all live

0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:50.719
<v Speaker 2>in relative harmony. Right so he's no longer supporting a

0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Jewish state, and this really is going to cause problems

0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:57.520
<v Speaker 2>for him, David Green continues. By now Dehn had become

0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 2>a liability to the Zionist movement and a special dangerous

0:35:00.600 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>because of the platform he now had for spreading his

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 2>views in London, where critical decisions about Palestine were being

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:09.080
<v Speaker 2>made in Jerusalem, he became persona non grata among Zionists,

0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:12.360
<v Speaker 2>including his law students. One anecdote has him walking with

0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:15.399
<v Speaker 2>a Dutch visitor who observed that as people passed them

0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:18.360
<v Speaker 2>into the street, they were spitting on the sidewalk. The

0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:20.839
<v Speaker 2>visitor thought this was a sign of disrespect, to which

0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.319
<v Speaker 2>de Han responded, According to Dutches, his Storian Ludy gibbles, Oh, no,

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:26.520
<v Speaker 2>they spit on the street out of respect for you,

0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:29.360
<v Speaker 2>your presence. Otherwise they would have spit in my face.

0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:32.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, he's very honest.

0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, is such an issue? He reads me me, Yeah,

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:41.120
<v Speaker 2>he does not have illusions. Early on the morning of

0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:43.880
<v Speaker 2>June thirtieth, nineteen twenty four, as he left the synagogue

0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and shar Zadek Hospital on Jaffa Road, Dehn was shot

0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:52.799
<v Speaker 2>three times. He died immediately. And you know this is

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.919
<v Speaker 2>the British Mandate issues a reward for information about the killer.

0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>No one ever comes forward, No one's ever caught, right, obviously,

0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and for a long time people just kind of assumed

0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:03.880
<v Speaker 2>the Haganah had done it. But we didn't know the

0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Hagana had done it until an Israeli businessman named Avraham

0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:09.320
<v Speaker 2>Tahomi came forward in the nineteen eighties. We're going to

0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:12.319
<v Speaker 2>talk about Abraham a little bit later too. Abraham had

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.520
<v Speaker 2>been with the Haganah in the nineteen twenties, and he

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.239
<v Speaker 2>claims that when he assassinated Dehn, he was working under

0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:21.480
<v Speaker 2>the orders of Yitzak benz v, the future second President

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:23.880
<v Speaker 2>of Israel and an officer in the Hagana at the time.

0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 2>To Homie insisted, I have no regrets because Dehn wanted

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.440
<v Speaker 2>to destroy our whole idea of Zionism. And I just

0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.759
<v Speaker 2>tell you a lot because Dehn is very much saying

0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:36.480
<v Speaker 2>we need an independent state that the British don't run.

0:36:37.120 --> 0:36:39.520
<v Speaker 2>He just doesn't want it to be racist.

0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:42.040
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't want it to be exclusion are Yeah. Yeah,

0:36:42.040 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 3>it's an interesting like journey that he took to ethno nationalism.

0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:47.400
<v Speaker 3>And I was like, oh wait.

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it shows like someone who whatever else you want

0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:53.560
<v Speaker 2>to say about him, looks at as soon as he

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:57.160
<v Speaker 2>realizes how much violence is going to have to happiety,

0:36:57.200 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 2>He's like, no, it's not worth it. That's horrible. I

0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:02.000
<v Speaker 2>don't want that. A poet like that's.

0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:03.840
<v Speaker 3>Not my I mean, that's the whole thing with like

0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.279
<v Speaker 3>cultural Zionists, right, I mean, I don't know, I'm not

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:09.879
<v Speaker 3>a historic of Zionism, but like my understanding is they're like, oh,

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 3>you know, we belong here, we should have some you know,

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:17.560
<v Speaker 3>stake here, but we should definitely not be exclusionary and

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:21.920
<v Speaker 3>no nationalist coast right, that's suffer too much badness.

0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:24.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, As I've tried to say, Zionism doesn't mean

0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:26.520
<v Speaker 2>one thing. There are a lot of like, you know,

0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:28.800
<v Speaker 2>cultural zionis is one is a good term for the

0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:31.440
<v Speaker 2>people who like their idea of what Zionism means is

0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:36.840
<v Speaker 2>like well, like the Jewish kind of community that we

0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:39.640
<v Speaker 2>want to create. It's not necessarily a political state. It's

0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>like a like an actual community, but it doesn't necessarily

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:45.480
<v Speaker 2>require us to have political power and be the only

0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:47.520
<v Speaker 2>ones with it. That's not what I a lot of

0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:50.960
<v Speaker 2>people are advocating for. Obviously, those folks become less common

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:53.680
<v Speaker 2>as everything gets hardened and everything gets a lot more violent,

0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:55.360
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of them get killed.

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:55.560
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 2>You see, if you are one of those kind of

0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:01.040
<v Speaker 2>people like Dahan, who is willing to like rethink your

0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:04.919
<v Speaker 2>ideas and push for a much more integrated and less

0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:08.000
<v Speaker 2>aggressive thing than these really aggressive Zionists are going to

0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:09.480
<v Speaker 2>kill you if they think you're going to get any far,

0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.600
<v Speaker 2>because that's what happens to de Han, right, and his

0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:14.480
<v Speaker 2>death is often called the first political assassination in the

0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Zionist community, the first assassination of a Jew buy other Jews,

0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:21.800
<v Speaker 2>right like that, and it's not going to be the last,

0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.239
<v Speaker 2>by the way, but it is really important because it

0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:28.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of breaks that barrier, and violence of every kind

0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:29.960
<v Speaker 2>is going to grow a lot more common. In the

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:33.200
<v Speaker 2>late twenties and thirties, and Tel Aviv and Jaffa, two

0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:35.399
<v Speaker 2>cities joined by the hip by the thirties, there were

0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:38.279
<v Speaker 2>constant conflicts over the fact that Jewish kids would visit

0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:41.880
<v Speaker 2>brothels and gambling dens run by Arabs in downtown Jafa,

0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>just as Arab kids went to Tel Aviv to do

0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the same thing. Right, there are like criminals. There are

0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.640
<v Speaker 2>like Arab Muslim criminals who like run brothels and run

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.239
<v Speaker 2>drugs and whatnot in the legal dancing houses, and there's

0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:56.560
<v Speaker 2>like Jewish like organized criminal gangs that do the same thing.

0:38:57.000 --> 0:38:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And they both tend to have a lot of appeal

0:38:58.719 --> 0:39:01.000
<v Speaker 2>to like members of the opposite commun unity, which causes

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:04.480
<v Speaker 2>like the a lot of like the you know, particularly

0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:06.760
<v Speaker 2>the mothers and fathers because they're often kids, to start

0:39:06.800 --> 0:39:09.280
<v Speaker 2>moral panics about, oh, the Arabs are corrupting our kids,

0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:11.760
<v Speaker 2>the Jews are corrupting our kids, right, And the reality

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.239
<v Speaker 2>is that like kids like to go do stuff they're

0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:16.600
<v Speaker 2>not supposed to do. And if you're growing up in

0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Tel Aviv, go in to downtown Jafa to go like

0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:24.279
<v Speaker 2>into a brothel is going to seem like the most transgressive.

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.960
<v Speaker 3>Thing you can do one.

0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Whereas if you're a Muslim growing up in Jaffa,

0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Tel Aviv's going to have a similar appeal. Right. Ultimately,

0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:35.239
<v Speaker 2>this is very funny. The British solve the problem with

0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:37.840
<v Speaker 2>all these brothels by first they crack down on the

0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:41.120
<v Speaker 2>brothels and like close them down, and then that just

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:43.600
<v Speaker 2>means all the brothels are illegal, and they realize that, like,

0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>oh shit, we actually have a problem keeping like enough

0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:48.680
<v Speaker 2>salt of our soldiers healthy because all of our soldiers

0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:52.080
<v Speaker 2>are going to the brothels obviously they're soldiers. And so

0:39:52.520 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 2>the British mandate establishes a bunch of official brothels so

0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:58.799
<v Speaker 2>that they can make sure they don't lose too many

0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:01.399
<v Speaker 2>soldiers to VD right, and they keep by the way,

0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:05.000
<v Speaker 2>these brothels are stopped with both like Arab and ashkanasm women, right,

0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Like that's what the part of what the British Mandate

0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>is doing. Like they're deliberately like recruiting a mix of

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:16.439
<v Speaker 2>women to like run like people these brothels as part

0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:19.000
<v Speaker 2>of like a public health measure. I guess you'd call it.

0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:23.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, obviously there's still illegal brothels, and it's not

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:26.880
<v Speaker 2>uncommon you see brothel owners and like including like a

0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:29.240
<v Speaker 2>lot of Jewish brothel owners will get murdered by Zionist

0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 2>gangs for corrupting the community. The same thing happens Arab

0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:36.680
<v Speaker 2>nationalists will murder you know, Arab brothel owners for similar reasons.

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>Because these are also people are becoming more religious hardline

0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>right or religiously hardline newspapers publish constant allegations that one

0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 2>community is corrupting the other. There's tons of complaints from like,

0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, people in Tel Aviv that these these Arab

0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:54.000
<v Speaker 2>men are coming over to aglar women, and complaints from

0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.520
<v Speaker 2>like in Jaffa of like these rowdy young Jewish kids

0:40:57.560 --> 0:40:59.520
<v Speaker 2>are coming in and like causing problems, right, like you

0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:02.279
<v Speaker 2>see a lot of those complaints in the newspapers. And

0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:06.480
<v Speaker 2>sometimes as much as it turns into like conflict, it's

0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:08.480
<v Speaker 2>also evidence of the fact that these are still deeply

0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>tied communities. Young people are hanging out together, young people

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:15.719
<v Speaker 2>are going over to each other's like downtown margins, and

0:41:15.760 --> 0:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>they're just there's intermarrying and other kinds of inter stuff. Right,

0:41:20.920 --> 0:41:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna I'm going to quote again from Life's in

0:41:22.719 --> 0:41:26.399
<v Speaker 2>Common here. Romance has sometimes developed between Britons and young

0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:29.240
<v Speaker 2>women in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The Jewish underground militias

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:33.000
<v Speaker 2>fought this phenomenon, tracking and on occasion interrogating girls who

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:36.319
<v Speaker 2>socialized with British soldiers and civilians and with Arabs. Some

0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:39.200
<v Speaker 2>were executed on charges of providing intelligence to the enemy.

0:41:40.160 --> 0:41:42.440
<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's we're not going to be talking

0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:45.720
<v Speaker 2>about enough, but there are a lot of like mixed relationships,

0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:48.359
<v Speaker 2>and these are often very common. You have a lot

0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:52.160
<v Speaker 2>of really awful stories about like when you know, the

0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>violence boils over during the Arab or bolt and stuff.

0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:57.600
<v Speaker 2>You have a lot of families broken up that are

0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 2>had been inter faith families. Like there's but they're is

0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:02.920
<v Speaker 2>that is happening here, and it's a mix of these

0:42:02.920 --> 0:42:05.840
<v Speaker 2>people just trying to live their lives and also totally

0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:09.840
<v Speaker 2>unwittingly becoming flashpoints because other members of the community get angry.

0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, their identities are like to complicated. Can I just

0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:15.160
<v Speaker 3>plug the episode I did about my great.

0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:17.399
<v Speaker 2>Ground there here please? Yea yeah, yeah, yeah, it.

0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:19.960
<v Speaker 3>Could happen here if people are interested in like one

0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 3>particular story that happens to be my in my family history.

0:42:23.920 --> 0:42:27.680
<v Speaker 3>There's there's that, but it's I mean, kind of more broadly,

0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:31.040
<v Speaker 3>I think we need to understand like the lens of

0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:35.600
<v Speaker 3>like sexual politics here is an important one to see

0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 3>the conflict through because it remains like the way that

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:44.160
<v Speaker 3>both like the British but also then the Israeli government

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:52.560
<v Speaker 3>weaponizes kind of maybe less less progressive sexual politics in

0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:58.480
<v Speaker 3>some of these communities is a relevant thing to understand.

0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:00.239
<v Speaker 3>I mean it continues until.

0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Today, yeah, absolutely. Nineteen twenty nine is a particularly bad

0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:10.480
<v Speaker 2>year for violence in Palestine after Zionist leaders refuse British

0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:13.279
<v Speaker 2>offers to shared Arab Jewish reports. So there's a lot

0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:16.840
<v Speaker 2>of talk about like representation and like moving towards an

0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:19.839
<v Speaker 2>independent state in Palestine because the mandate the British never

0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:22.640
<v Speaker 2>like own Palestine. That's not how they're thinking about it either.

0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:24.239
<v Speaker 2>They are from the beginning though, that they're going to

0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.759
<v Speaker 2>leave at some point. And so the British, you know,

0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:29.400
<v Speaker 2>they have Zionist leaders and you know, Arab leaders come

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:32.120
<v Speaker 2>to the table and they're talking about trying to figure

0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:33.759
<v Speaker 2>out some sort of system, and the British make an

0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:37.520
<v Speaker 2>offer that would have had shared Arab Jewish representation, right,

0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.640
<v Speaker 2>and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, you know, and the

0:43:40.640 --> 0:43:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Arabs are generally in agreement with this, but the Zionists

0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>do not. They do not want to come to the table,

0:43:45.080 --> 0:43:48.680
<v Speaker 2>they don't want shared representation. So this pisses off the

0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:50.319
<v Speaker 2>Grand Mufti. It piss off a lot of people. And

0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the Grand Muffy starts speaking out about a future Jewish

0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.480
<v Speaker 2>takeover of the Temple Mount, right, And he starts giving

0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 2>speeches telling like they're trying to take over, they're trying

0:43:57.520 --> 0:43:59.160
<v Speaker 2>to take over the Temple Mount. They're trying to push

0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.279
<v Speaker 2>us out of our of our home. And there are newsletters,

0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:05.040
<v Speaker 2>news articles that are published at the same time about

0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:07.080
<v Speaker 2>a series of land purchases that had been made by

0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:10.160
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish National Fund that inflamed the now decades old

0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:13.080
<v Speaker 2>arguments over how much land Jewish immigrants should be allowed

0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:17.560
<v Speaker 2>to buy. This is all further incensed by years of

0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:20.640
<v Speaker 2>constant conflict over who should be allowed to do what where,

0:44:20.840 --> 0:44:23.799
<v Speaker 2>particularly at the Western Wall, which is also part of

0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:27.160
<v Speaker 2>the al Oxa Mosque. Now, there had been friction over

0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:30.920
<v Speaker 2>this forever pretty much, at least at times, but in

0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.719
<v Speaker 2>the past a genuine desire of most Muslims and Jews

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:36.520
<v Speaker 2>to let each other do their thing tended to win out.

0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.760
<v Speaker 2>You don't see that staying true by the late twenties,

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:43.800
<v Speaker 2>and shit just keeps getting uglier and uglier until August

0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:47.600
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen twenty nine. And we're talking about you know,

0:44:47.640 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 2>the politics of this, you know the ongoing back and forth,

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.080
<v Speaker 2>and the religious dimensions of this. But I also don't

0:44:53.080 --> 0:44:55.000
<v Speaker 2>want you to forget the fact that everything boils over

0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:58.719
<v Speaker 2>in August when it's really fucking hot, which is just

0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:01.360
<v Speaker 2>throughout history always when riots and stuff tend to be

0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:05.040
<v Speaker 2>at their worst everywhere when it's hot, right, Yeah, it's

0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:09.080
<v Speaker 2>just people. Per an article in EPSCO quote, the unrest

0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:11.760
<v Speaker 2>was initially sparked by the installation of a portable screen

0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.360
<v Speaker 2>by Jewish worshippers at the western wall on Yam Kapur,

0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:17.440
<v Speaker 2>aimed at separating men and women during prayer. The location

0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:19.239
<v Speaker 2>is significant to both Jews as a remnant of the

0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:21.279
<v Speaker 2>ancient temple and Muslims, who viewed as part of the

0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.879
<v Speaker 2>Al Axa Mosque complex. Following escalating tensions and protests from

0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:27.560
<v Speaker 2>both sides, violence erupted when rumors spread the Jewish groups

0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:31.319
<v Speaker 2>intended to attack Muslim holy sites. The riots escalated over

0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.279
<v Speaker 2>several days, resulting in substantial loss of life, with two

0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:37.439
<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty nine fatalities recorded, one hundred and thirty

0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:40.360
<v Speaker 2>three Jewish and one hundred and sixteen Arab, alongside hundreds

0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:44.120
<v Speaker 2>of injuries. The violence extended from Jerusalem to other areas

0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:47.200
<v Speaker 2>such as Hebron and Safed, where Jews faced brutal attacks,

0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and obviously, like Jewish communities are being attacked at the

0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.000
<v Speaker 2>same time you see in the death toll, this is

0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 2>not these groups are still not completely out of proportion

0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:58.920
<v Speaker 2>with each other in terms of their capacity to do violence.

0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Right when you have like Zion militias and these Arab

0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:04.960
<v Speaker 2>nationalists militias, they're kind of at parody still. You kind

0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:06.200
<v Speaker 2>of see that in the death toll.

0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:08.799
<v Speaker 3>You know, just say it's more like a fight than

0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:13.320
<v Speaker 3>like a pagrom, like essentially or something.

0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:16.160
<v Speaker 2>There are brawls in there are programs. There are eight

0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:18.960
<v Speaker 2>neighborhoods that are attacked that don't have defense, right, and

0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:20.960
<v Speaker 2>people are forced out of their homes and lose their houses.

0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:23.240
<v Speaker 2>And there are also massive street fights, and there's counter

0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:26.400
<v Speaker 2>fights and counter attacks. I don't know if like pagram,

0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know who gets to determine that it's a

0:46:29.239 --> 0:46:31.800
<v Speaker 2>mix of different kinds of violence. This is happening over days,

0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and it happening in multiple cities, right, So it's not

0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the same everywhere, right, But it's not a situation is

0:46:38.200 --> 0:46:41.480
<v Speaker 2>where like it's just one group of people dying, right, Like,

0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:45.120
<v Speaker 2>that's certainly not the case. And this is this is terrible,

0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:47.800
<v Speaker 2>and there is a lot of violence against innocent people

0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of particularly a lot of like civilian

0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:52.360
<v Speaker 2>Jewish communities. And this is one of those terrible moments

0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 2>that historians often see is having sort of locked in

0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:59.320
<v Speaker 2>the worst possible future. Right that this is not necessarily

0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:01.839
<v Speaker 2>the point of no return, but it's one of the

0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:05.640
<v Speaker 2>points that makes it very hard for things to get better, right,

0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.120
<v Speaker 2>And the Western Wall rights are a really important point

0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:14.640
<v Speaker 2>for things getting worse in Palestine. Afterwards, Jewish militias increase

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.200
<v Speaker 2>in size and number, and they began building and importing

0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:21.520
<v Speaker 2>more arms. Antisemitic violence rises, as to assassinations and property

0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:25.279
<v Speaker 2>destruction by groups like your Gun. Again. That's the good.

0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Is the right wing militia that bitar the right wing

0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:31.279
<v Speaker 2>party forms in Palestine. We'll talk about them too a

0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:33.360
<v Speaker 2>little bit more here now I should note it in

0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I should also do an ad break, I guess,

0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:50.120
<v Speaker 2>and we're back. So nineteen twenty nine. Also August of

0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.239
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenty nine also sees the horrific Hebron massacre. That's

0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:55.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of part of this whole swell of violence where

0:47:55.560 --> 0:48:00.439
<v Speaker 2>this about seventy people are actually murdered. But because the

0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:02.960
<v Speaker 2>community Hebron is tiny, there's only six or seven hundred

0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Jews I think in Hebron at this period of time,

0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and because homes are destroyed, the community is basically destroyed.

0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:11.720
<v Speaker 2>That's how a lot of people see it, Like huge

0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.239
<v Speaker 2>numbers of Jews and Hebron are like forced out of

0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:16.600
<v Speaker 2>their homes, and a lot of people will say like

0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:18.879
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of the end of the Jewish community as

0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:22.239
<v Speaker 2>it had existed previously, right, and that's also going to

0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:25.080
<v Speaker 2>bring a lot more violence. In fact, it's this nineteen

0:48:25.120 --> 0:48:27.800
<v Speaker 2>twenty nine program that inspires a debate within the Haganah

0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:31.359
<v Speaker 2>over how the organization should proceed. Abraham to Homy again,

0:48:31.400 --> 0:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>the guy who's killed the han becomes closely tied to

0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Yabatinsky and Batar, and he urges a split and he

0:48:37.560 --> 0:48:40.360
<v Speaker 2>forms a group and originally initially called the Haganah b

0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Or there's like an apostrophe b. I don't know if

0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:47.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like literally ab or if it's I'm not you know,

0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:50.440
<v Speaker 2>Hebrew's not my strong suit here. It's initially just a

0:48:50.480 --> 0:48:52.680
<v Speaker 2>split off of the Haganah, and it's renamed Etzel, and

0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:55.880
<v Speaker 2>then in nineteen thirty one it's named renamed Irgun or

0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the National Military Organization, and this becomes the Militant Terrorist

0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Arm of Bitar. Rgun is a terrorist group. There is

0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:04.279
<v Speaker 2>no other way to look at your gun as a

0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:08.640
<v Speaker 2>terrorist than as a terrorist group, right, And in order

0:49:08.680 --> 0:49:10.160
<v Speaker 2>to kind of make that clear, I want to talk

0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:13.279
<v Speaker 2>to you about, you know, what Abraham Tahomi believed. And

0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to quote from a paper in the Institute

0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:18.760
<v Speaker 2>for Palestine Studies by Maher Sharif. Abraham to Hoomi declared

0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.560
<v Speaker 2>that political violence and terrorism were legitimate means in the

0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Jewish national struggle for the land of Israel. Pretty simple, right,

0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:29.520
<v Speaker 2>not a You don't have to read into him much

0:49:29.719 --> 0:49:32.640
<v Speaker 2>to call him a terrorist. He does. Irgun is the

0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:34.520
<v Speaker 2>largest right wing gang at the time, but it's not

0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.360
<v Speaker 2>the only one. And in short order they're going to

0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:38.320
<v Speaker 2>be joined by like the Stern Gang. I think Getzel

0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:40.759
<v Speaker 2>is the other name of the Stern Gang, and there's

0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:43.720
<v Speaker 2>several others, right And in short order, these different gangs,

0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:46.320
<v Speaker 2>as they're often called, we might call them terrorists, cells

0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:48.640
<v Speaker 2>or insurgent groups, you know, that would be a more

0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:51.160
<v Speaker 2>modern term for them. They start causing problems for the

0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:53.760
<v Speaker 2>British Mandate. They launch a lot of attacks and assassinations

0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:56.680
<v Speaker 2>on British officers, and the British are kind of bewildered.

0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:59.719
<v Speaker 2>They're bewildered both by this nineteen twenty nine wave of

0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:02.880
<v Speaker 2>vice program or you know, riots, whatever you want to

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:07.040
<v Speaker 2>call them, that really scares the British Mandate, that really

0:50:07.080 --> 0:50:10.319
<v Speaker 2>convinces them that, like, we probably can't stay here like this.

0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:12.600
<v Speaker 2>There's a ticking clock on how long we can keep

0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:16.080
<v Speaker 2>things under wraps here, and it also convinces the Mandate

0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:18.000
<v Speaker 2>we have to take some major steps to try to

0:50:18.080 --> 0:50:20.840
<v Speaker 2>turn down the temperature because things are dangerously close to

0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:24.440
<v Speaker 2>outright war. Right, because they're the British, they pick the

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.840
<v Speaker 2>worst ways to try to fix all that, well, not

0:50:26.920 --> 0:50:29.439
<v Speaker 2>the worst ways, but they do maybe the right thing

0:50:29.560 --> 0:50:32.040
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are only going to make the situation worse.

0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:36.120
<v Speaker 2>So they zero went on immigration from Europe of Zionist

0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:40.040
<v Speaker 2>Jews and land ownership policies as major causes of discord.

0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:42.320
<v Speaker 2>And obviously, as we've talked about, these are major causes

0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:46.719
<v Speaker 2>of discord. But they immediately throttle Zionist immigration into Palestine

0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:49.279
<v Speaker 2>and that infuriates. By the time they do that, you

0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:50.960
<v Speaker 2>could say, well, of course, you know, what else are

0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:53.200
<v Speaker 2>they going to do? But when you do that, after

0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:56.480
<v Speaker 2>like years of it just happening without nearly as much

0:50:56.640 --> 0:50:59.000
<v Speaker 2>it and there's like tens of thousands of heavily armed

0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:03.359
<v Speaker 2>and organized zion groups in the country, many of whom

0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:06.000
<v Speaker 2>had been initially armed and trained by the British, I

0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:09.160
<v Speaker 2>should say also, it's just it's it's gonna just cause

0:51:09.239 --> 0:51:12.279
<v Speaker 2>more violence, right, They immediately try to crack down on

0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:15.000
<v Speaker 2>this thing, and the people that they've given guns to

0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:17.960
<v Speaker 2>and training start fighting them a lot harder.

0:51:18.280 --> 0:51:18.440
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:23.680
<v Speaker 2>This sparks increasing conflict, sometimes deadly between you know, the

0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:26.480
<v Speaker 2>British authorities and these different militias. And while the Hagana

0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:29.680
<v Speaker 2>try not to get involved directly with attacking the British Mandate.

0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Part of why er Gun and the Stern Gang and

0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:34.640
<v Speaker 2>these other gangs exist and they do have ties to

0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the Haganah is so that the movement can do attacks

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 2>in the British Mandate without like the Hagana, you know,

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:44.759
<v Speaker 2>getting directly involved. Right. David Rappaport, who wrote the influential

0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:48.000
<v Speaker 2>article The Fourth Wave September eleventh and the History of Terrorism,

0:51:48.120 --> 0:51:50.840
<v Speaker 2>includes Ergun and lee High sorry lee High is the

0:51:50.840 --> 0:51:53.480
<v Speaker 2>other name of the Stern Gang as examples of the

0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.600
<v Speaker 2>second wave of terrorism. The first was the anarchist wave,

0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:58.880
<v Speaker 2>which it started in Russia in the late eighteen hundreds,

0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:02.520
<v Speaker 2>and the second was an anti colonial wave. But there's

0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:04.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people who disagree with Rapaport's claim because

0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:07.200
<v Speaker 2>it's not really right to look at the violence of

0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:10.319
<v Speaker 2>a group like Irgun or Lehigh or the Haganah as

0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:14.120
<v Speaker 2>anti colonial like terrorism or anti colonial insurgency. It's not

0:52:14.160 --> 0:52:16.879
<v Speaker 2>really anti colonial violence period. And I'm going to quote

0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:20.120
<v Speaker 2>from the Oxford Handbook of the History of Terrorism. Unlike

0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:22.520
<v Speaker 2>violent conflicts in other parts of the world during that period,

0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish struggle for self determination Palestine cannot be characterized

0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.839
<v Speaker 2>as anti colonial for two main reasons. First, while both

0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:32.279
<v Speaker 2>air Gun and especially lee High targeted British officials, Palestine

0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:34.840
<v Speaker 2>was never part of the British Empire. Furthermore, one of

0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:37.200
<v Speaker 2>the main initial objectives of the mandate was to facilitate

0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:40.759
<v Speaker 2>the implementation of the Balfour Declaration. Anti colonial struggles are

0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:44.640
<v Speaker 2>generally associated with uprisings of indigenous populations against foreign rule.

0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:47.880
<v Speaker 2>The vast majority of Jews from the Irgun and Lehigh

0:52:47.880 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 2>who struggled for the establishment of the independent State of

0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Israel were immigrants, while their main opponents, namely the Palestinians,

0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.880
<v Speaker 2>were natives of the land. Very important point to keep

0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:57.640
<v Speaker 2>in mind.

0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:00.839
<v Speaker 3>I'm surprised if the Oxford Handbook was thus honest.

0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.440
<v Speaker 2>They did say that at least yeah, yeah.

0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:06.920
<v Speaker 3>I mean terrorism studies is just a offenccessful, so this

0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:07.600
<v Speaker 3>is yeah.

0:53:08.600 --> 0:53:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that part of it was right. I have

0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:13.600
<v Speaker 2>some issues with that. But yeah, Now, all of these

0:53:13.640 --> 0:53:16.920
<v Speaker 2>pressures keep building and building, as does the violence, until

0:53:16.920 --> 0:53:18.879
<v Speaker 2>things come to a head again in the Great Arab

0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Revolt of nineteen thirty six to nineteen thirty nine. Sometimes

0:53:22.800 --> 0:53:25.920
<v Speaker 2>you'll hear called the Great Palestinian Revolt. I want to

0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:29.120
<v Speaker 2>quote now from an article in the journal Origins by

0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:33.360
<v Speaker 2>Ori Yehudai. Historians date the beginning of the Great nineteen

0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:35.520
<v Speaker 2>thirty six to nineteen thirty nine Arab Revolt as it

0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:37.560
<v Speaker 2>came to be known, to the killing of two Jews

0:53:37.600 --> 0:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>by Palestinian Arabs near the town of Karm on April fifteenth,

0:53:41.040 --> 0:53:44.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty six, followed by Jewish retaliation against Palestinians that

0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.840
<v Speaker 2>expanded into riots and Jaffa and Tel Aviv. So that's

0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:50.640
<v Speaker 2>like a really short summary of kind of what happens.

0:53:51.200 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Everything I've discussed over these last two episodes also is

0:53:54.760 --> 0:53:58.080
<v Speaker 2>part of why this revolt happens, right, This increasing anger

0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.839
<v Speaker 2>at the Mandate, this increasing anger at ze Ionism, all

0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:03.600
<v Speaker 2>of the violence between these different communities that have occurred,

0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:05.880
<v Speaker 2>All of that is a big part of what leads

0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:06.959
<v Speaker 2>to this revolt.

0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:12.520
<v Speaker 3>And fifty years at this point, Bry you know, basically

0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.440
<v Speaker 3>nationalism being suppressed on one side.

0:54:15.200 --> 0:54:19.839
<v Speaker 2>Right right, and another cause also can't be divorced from

0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:22.120
<v Speaker 2>is the coming of Nazism to Germany, which causes a

0:54:22.200 --> 0:54:24.960
<v Speaker 2>massive surch in Jewish immigration into Palestine that makes them

0:54:24.960 --> 0:54:27.520
<v Speaker 2>more than a quarter of the population by nineteen thirty six.

0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:31.640
<v Speaker 2>To quote from Oriyhudai again, the Zionists built their settlements

0:54:31.640 --> 0:54:34.480
<v Speaker 2>on land purchased from Arab owners living in Palestine or

0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:37.520
<v Speaker 2>in neighboring Arab countries. The transactions had a devastating impact

0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:40.080
<v Speaker 2>on Palestinian society, as they often involved the removal of

0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:43.279
<v Speaker 2>Palestinian peasants from the land. The distress of thousands of

0:54:43.320 --> 0:54:46.239
<v Speaker 2>uprooted peasant families, coupled with frustration over the failure of

0:54:46.280 --> 0:54:50.000
<v Speaker 2>traditional leadership to halt Zionism, led to a grassroots uprising

0:54:50.080 --> 0:54:53.440
<v Speaker 2>launched by younger nationalist activists on April twenty fifth, nineteen

0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:57.279
<v Speaker 2>thirty six. Palestinian political parties temporarily put aside their differences

0:54:57.480 --> 0:54:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and created a coordinating body called the Arab Higher Can

0:55:00.400 --> 0:55:03.840
<v Speaker 2>or AHC, headed by a Haaji Amin al Husseini, the

0:55:03.840 --> 0:55:08.200
<v Speaker 2>Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. And the first thing that happens

0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:10.319
<v Speaker 2>and what's called now the Great Air Revolt is a

0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:14.080
<v Speaker 2>six month general strike that is peaceful. Right. This is

0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:19.120
<v Speaker 2>an attempt of by a large organized body of Palestinian

0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Arabs to address their grievances with the British mandate via

0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:26.800
<v Speaker 2>a general strike, which is what everyone says should be

0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:29.319
<v Speaker 2>the right way to do something like this, Right, you like,

0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:33.840
<v Speaker 2>peacefully but firmly state your demands and without using violence,

0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:37.400
<v Speaker 2>create a way to disrupt life in so that the

0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:40.600
<v Speaker 2>people who are running things make concessions to you. Right Like,

0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:44.080
<v Speaker 2>that's like how you're supposed to try to improve things

0:55:44.120 --> 0:55:47.719
<v Speaker 2>like in the West. That's what we say, right, rather

0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:51.439
<v Speaker 2>than violence, right, but nothing like. The British not only

0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:55.000
<v Speaker 2>ignore them, they outright refuse the demands of this committee.

0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Right because the committee is demanding an end to Jewish

0:55:57.080 --> 0:56:00.839
<v Speaker 2>immigration and land purchase and an independent national government. Now

0:56:01.160 --> 0:56:03.759
<v Speaker 2>there's room, as there always has been, for a negotiation here,

0:56:03.760 --> 0:56:06.920
<v Speaker 2>but the British refuse. And after six months of peaceful striking,

0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:09.760
<v Speaker 2>a rebellion breaks out and it turns into a general

0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.680
<v Speaker 2>uprising against the British and the Zionists, and it gets

0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:15.719
<v Speaker 2>very ugly. There's a number of different rebel groups some

0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:18.239
<v Speaker 2>of them carry out attacks on Jewish civilians too. This

0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:21.240
<v Speaker 2>is a really brutal time, but that's not the majority

0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:25.400
<v Speaker 2>or even all of what's happening. Certainly, the violence convinces

0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:28.040
<v Speaker 2>the British that the Mandate is untenable and that they're

0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:31.080
<v Speaker 2>going to need to create a Jewish state immediately, and

0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:33.600
<v Speaker 2>they drop plans to do this. The initial plans would

0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:36.520
<v Speaker 2>transfer because of where they're and I think that their

0:56:36.520 --> 0:56:38.440
<v Speaker 2>initial idea for this Jewish state they want to make

0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:41.960
<v Speaker 2>is about seventeen percent of Palestine, right, and because of

0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:43.720
<v Speaker 2>the way they draw it up, it's going to require

0:56:43.760 --> 0:56:46.160
<v Speaker 2>the transfer. That's the term they use, of two hundred

0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:49.719
<v Speaker 2>thousand Arab Palestinians out of this new Jewish territory and

0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:52.040
<v Speaker 2>about one thousand Jews are going to need a vice versus.

0:56:52.040 --> 0:56:54.080
<v Speaker 2>So you see, I mean that's a really good I

0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:58.520
<v Speaker 2>look right there at just the discrepancy between how the

0:56:58.560 --> 0:57:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Mandate treats these two sides is they think it's reasonable

0:57:02.440 --> 0:57:05.399
<v Speaker 2>to ask two hundred thousand Arab Muslims to leave their

0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:08.120
<v Speaker 2>homes in exchange for like a thousand Jews doing the

0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:11.359
<v Speaker 2>same on the other side, right, which is like I

0:57:11.440 --> 0:57:13.359
<v Speaker 2>just think those numbers are kind of useful to look

0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:17.920
<v Speaker 2>at next to each other, right, So the Zionist leadership

0:57:18.040 --> 0:57:21.040
<v Speaker 2>accepts everything the British offer except the size of their borders,

0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:25.840
<v Speaker 2>which is worth noting. The Palestinian leadership says, no, this

0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:27.160
<v Speaker 2>isn't really at all.

0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:27.800
<v Speaker 5>Would we do that?

0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Why would we like? What?

0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:31.400
<v Speaker 4>What?

0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:32.080
<v Speaker 5>On what?

0:57:32.320 --> 0:57:35.560
<v Speaker 2>The rebellion goes on until fall of nineteen thirty eight,

0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:37.480
<v Speaker 2>when the British send in a big old army to

0:57:37.560 --> 0:57:40.200
<v Speaker 2>murder their way out of the problem, or re summarizes.

0:57:40.680 --> 0:57:43.040
<v Speaker 2>The British sent twenty thousand troops to Palestine and used

0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:46.480
<v Speaker 2>harsh measures against the rebels, including house demolitions and executions.

0:57:46.720 --> 0:57:50.280
<v Speaker 2>They outlawed the AHC, arrested and expelled activists, and disarmed

0:57:50.280 --> 0:57:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the Palestinians. Their vote was suppressed by the summer of

0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:56.439
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty nine, leaving a toll of approximately five thousand Arab,

0:57:56.680 --> 0:57:59.320
<v Speaker 2>four hundred and fifteen Jewish and one hundred British deaths.

0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:03.240
<v Speaker 2>And this is the most lopsided death toll we've seen.

0:58:03.280 --> 0:58:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Obviously the British are largely responsible for that, but you

0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:09.280
<v Speaker 2>know what you've seen here. The British have sent a

0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:13.880
<v Speaker 2>couple really important messages with how they've dealt with this. First,

0:58:14.120 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 2>they've told the Palestinians that peaceful protest is not going

0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:19.160
<v Speaker 2>to get you shit. And second they've told the Zionists

0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:22.560
<v Speaker 2>that your arms and militias are acceptable and your years

0:58:22.560 --> 0:58:26.120
<v Speaker 2>of militant organizing are working. These are not great messages

0:58:26.120 --> 0:58:29.480
<v Speaker 2>to send. This is going to cause problems for everybody.

0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:58:31.520 --> 0:58:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Once World War Two gets started, a great number of

0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Jewish fighters in Palestine again sign up to fight with

0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:39.160
<v Speaker 2>the British. And they do this for both the incredibly

0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:41.880
<v Speaker 2>understandable reason of wanting to fight the Nazis and for

0:58:41.920 --> 0:58:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the same reason Yapotenski had wanted a Jewish legion World

0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:46.520
<v Speaker 2>War One so that they could get more arms and

0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:50.120
<v Speaker 2>experience for their upcoming war of independence. But the conflict

0:58:50.120 --> 0:58:52.880
<v Speaker 2>with the British doesn't end just because they're ostensibly on

0:58:52.920 --> 0:58:56.120
<v Speaker 2>the same side of this growing war. In nineteen forty,

0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the Central Office for Jewish Immigration chartered three ships to

0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:04.000
<v Speaker 2>take Jewish refugees from Romania to Palestine. Once these ships docked,

0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the British refused to let the refugees off. They had

0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:09.160
<v Speaker 2>enacted by this point the White Paper Policy to curb

0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Jewish immigration, and they planned to deport these people and

0:59:12.920 --> 0:59:15.960
<v Speaker 2>not by the way back to Romania, and to do

0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:18.560
<v Speaker 2>so transferred all of the Jewish refugees from these three

0:59:18.560 --> 0:59:21.200
<v Speaker 2>ships to one boat called the Patria, which was docked

0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:23.640
<v Speaker 2>at Haifa and bound for Mauritius. That's where they were

0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:25.360
<v Speaker 2>going to unload these people, so they weren't going to

0:59:25.360 --> 0:59:26.040
<v Speaker 2>be in Palestine.

0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:26.240
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:28.640
<v Speaker 2>So you've got this boat full of have you heard

0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:29.640
<v Speaker 2>of the Patria case?

0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:32.480
<v Speaker 3>By the way, No, this is a new to me.

0:59:33.160 --> 0:59:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is a really important point. That's kind of

0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:36.800
<v Speaker 2>the point we're going to end on. I didn't really

0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:40.160
<v Speaker 2>know about this either. So you've got this boat and

0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:42.840
<v Speaker 2>it's got these refugees from the Holocaust, right like, docted

0:59:42.840 --> 0:59:44.200
<v Speaker 2>at Haifa, and the British are going to send it

0:59:44.200 --> 0:59:46.640
<v Speaker 2>off to Mauritius. And there's a massive debate within the

0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Haganah for what to do here. Now. During World War two,

0:59:50.000 --> 0:59:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the Haganah's unofficial motto was fight the white paper like

0:59:53.160 --> 0:59:55.520
<v Speaker 2>there is no world war and help the British like

0:59:55.560 --> 0:59:58.680
<v Speaker 2>there is no white paper. So they wanted to stop

0:59:58.720 --> 1:00:01.360
<v Speaker 2>these people from being howard it right for a lot

1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:03.880
<v Speaker 2>of reasons. But when you get into the habit as

1:00:03.880 --> 1:00:07.439
<v Speaker 2>the Hagana has by this point of stockpiling guns and explosives,

1:00:08.040 --> 1:00:10.680
<v Speaker 2>every problem starts to look like maybe guns and explosives

1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:14.400
<v Speaker 2>are the solution, right, Like, that's just a human universal

1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:16.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to quote now from an article in the

1:00:16.600 --> 1:00:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Museum of the Jewish People. Amateurism, negligence, and perhaps even

1:00:20.640 --> 1:00:24.160
<v Speaker 2>an inherent subconscious disrespect for the refugees blinded their eyes.

1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:27.680
<v Speaker 2>The Hagana commanders acted against experts advice and placed a

1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:30.160
<v Speaker 2>bomb in the rickety side of the old ship rather

1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:33.040
<v Speaker 2>than under the machines area where there would be no passengers.

1:00:33.560 --> 1:00:36.440
<v Speaker 2>And their idea here, at least the claim that the

1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Hagana makes is that we wanted to set off a

1:00:38.200 --> 1:00:41.080
<v Speaker 2>small explosion so that they would have to evacuate the ship.

1:00:41.280 --> 1:00:44.440
<v Speaker 2>And once they've evacuated these refugees into Palestine, it'll be

1:00:44.440 --> 1:00:48.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot easier to keep them here. Right There's You

1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:51.160
<v Speaker 2>could certainly run into theories that they intended it to

1:00:51.200 --> 1:00:53.680
<v Speaker 2>be as big as it was. But whatever the cause is,

1:00:54.080 --> 1:00:56.240
<v Speaker 2>in the official senses that they fucked up and were

1:00:56.280 --> 1:00:59.240
<v Speaker 2>just really bad with their explosives. They completely screw up,

1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and they blow this to Kingdom, fucking calm and they

1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:05.480
<v Speaker 2>kill two hundred and sixty seven Jewish refugees. Right, it

1:01:05.560 --> 1:01:08.960
<v Speaker 2>is a horrible catastrophe, and it is still today known

1:01:09.000 --> 1:01:11.760
<v Speaker 2>as the Patry Disaster. Is seen as the largest catastrophe

1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.320
<v Speaker 2>in which Jews cause the death of other Jews. Two

1:01:14.400 --> 1:01:16.920
<v Speaker 2>hundred and sixty seven total people die in the bombing.

1:01:17.000 --> 1:01:19.000
<v Speaker 2>They're not actually all Jewish, but the vast majority of

1:01:19.000 --> 1:01:21.680
<v Speaker 2>them are, and another one hundred and seventy two are injured. Now,

1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:24.040
<v Speaker 2>the Haganah again says that we miscalculated. This was a

1:01:24.080 --> 1:01:28.440
<v Speaker 2>horrible fuck up on humanitarian grounds. Though the British respond

1:01:28.440 --> 1:01:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to this by saying, okay, all of the survivors get

1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:34.360
<v Speaker 2>to stay, and so what message has the Mandate sent

1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:41.360
<v Speaker 2>the Haganah by exactly right, And this is where I'm

1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:43.920
<v Speaker 2>going to end things. Again, it's an arbitrary point. Any

1:01:44.000 --> 1:01:45.560
<v Speaker 2>point I would pick is, but I think by this

1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:48.080
<v Speaker 2>point you see everything that's going to lead us in

1:01:48.760 --> 1:01:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to the Nakba to forty eight, Like everything has been

1:01:51.840 --> 1:01:55.360
<v Speaker 2>established now there's not really a turning back point, and

1:01:55.400 --> 1:01:57.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of it is because of what the messages

1:01:57.480 --> 1:02:00.160
<v Speaker 2>the British have sent, both that they've cracked down and

1:02:00.200 --> 1:02:03.640
<v Speaker 2>debilitated and killed so many of these Palestinian leaders, and

1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:08.200
<v Speaker 2>they have just continued to yield and aid and a bet,

1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:11.040
<v Speaker 2>you know the Hagen even while they're carrying out terrorist

1:02:11.040 --> 1:02:13.080
<v Speaker 2>attacks that in a lot of cases kill you know,

1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:15.840
<v Speaker 2>British civilians and their own civilians. Right. The lesson they

1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:18.840
<v Speaker 2>have sent is bombing and violence is the way to

1:02:18.880 --> 1:02:20.840
<v Speaker 2>get what you want, and we will give you everything

1:02:20.880 --> 1:02:22.240
<v Speaker 2>if you just do a little bit more of it.

1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:24.800
<v Speaker 2>That's what the British are saying in nineteen forty, right,

1:02:25.600 --> 1:02:27.800
<v Speaker 2>And everything that comes after that is I think pretty

1:02:28.440 --> 1:02:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say predictable, but you get I think kind

1:02:32.280 --> 1:02:34.439
<v Speaker 2>of where everything else happens at this point.

1:02:35.040 --> 1:02:38.080
<v Speaker 3>I think the discrepancy is also really important to highlight

1:02:38.160 --> 1:02:41.760
<v Speaker 3>here because when nineteen forty it happens, I think a

1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:46.440
<v Speaker 3>lot of maybe pro Israel readings of that event or

1:02:46.560 --> 1:02:51.320
<v Speaker 3>propaganda around that event is that, oh, all of these

1:02:51.360 --> 1:02:54.800
<v Speaker 3>Arab countries attacked Israel, but in fact they were armed

1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.000
<v Speaker 3>like three to one. And it's because of this discrepancy

1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:01.440
<v Speaker 3>that's like continued through time that the British have allowed

1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:06.400
<v Speaker 3>for them to like build up their material power. So

1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:11.200
<v Speaker 3>even with those Arab countries coming in in nineteen forty eight,

1:03:11.200 --> 1:03:15.040
<v Speaker 3>when Israel declares itself after Palstins are ethically cleansed, like

1:03:15.080 --> 1:03:18.720
<v Speaker 3>it's it's nothing compared to what the Israeli gangs are

1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:21.400
<v Speaker 3>able to do, which are an IDEF and all.

1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:23.440
<v Speaker 2>About yeah, it's become the IDF. In this period, and

1:03:23.480 --> 1:03:26.200
<v Speaker 2>obviously there continue to be conflicts between like the Irgun

1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:29.280
<v Speaker 2>and the Haganah because they're not in agreement about, among

1:03:29.320 --> 1:03:31.960
<v Speaker 2>other things, yourgun wants to be the military of Israel

1:03:32.040 --> 1:03:35.760
<v Speaker 2>right at a certain point, and you know there's I

1:03:35.840 --> 1:03:38.360
<v Speaker 2>did debate should I have talked ended this more at

1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:41.840
<v Speaker 2>like the bombing of the King David Hotel, But I don't,

1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, which is something people should be aware of.

1:03:43.880 --> 1:03:46.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's another and that I think the was

1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:48.360
<v Speaker 2>your gun and Monoch and begin was like a major

1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:51.080
<v Speaker 2>figure in sort of helping to mastermind that terrorist attack.

1:03:52.760 --> 1:03:56.280
<v Speaker 2>But I you know, by this point in time, you've

1:03:56.320 --> 1:03:59.720
<v Speaker 2>seen both like the community that had existed previously, you

1:03:59.760 --> 1:04:01.560
<v Speaker 2>know seventeen eight or in the eighteen ags that we

1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:05.920
<v Speaker 2>started talking about, has been forcibly broken down and also

1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:10.120
<v Speaker 2>broken just because like the massive changes that have swept

1:04:10.120 --> 1:04:12.560
<v Speaker 2>the culture have meant that like people don't feel the

1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:14.640
<v Speaker 2>same about who they are anymore in a lot of.

1:04:14.600 --> 1:04:18.240
<v Speaker 3>Cases, and it's very difficult to say you're an Arab Jew,

1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:21.880
<v Speaker 3>right when there's not really space for you in either

1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:23.440
<v Speaker 3>nationalism essentially.

1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then of course.

1:04:25.240 --> 1:04:26.800
<v Speaker 3>I mean you're not even getting to the part of

1:04:26.880 --> 1:04:31.600
<v Speaker 3>like all of the Arab Jewish migration that happens in

1:04:31.640 --> 1:04:36.800
<v Speaker 3>the aftermath of Israel's creation and how the state treats them. Yeah,

1:04:36.880 --> 1:04:38.760
<v Speaker 3>I mean today I think there are over fifty percent

1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:42.600
<v Speaker 3>of the population of Jewish Israelis, but you wouldn't know that,

1:04:42.680 --> 1:04:45.760
<v Speaker 3>like there's so much similarity between them and their Palestinian

1:04:46.320 --> 1:04:50.200
<v Speaker 3>enemies essentially, but because of like you said, the identity

1:04:50.200 --> 1:04:50.600
<v Speaker 3>has been.

1:04:50.480 --> 1:04:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Erased, right, And that's why there aren't Arab Jewish communities

1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of these different Middle Eastern North African

1:04:56.280 --> 1:04:58.840
<v Speaker 2>countries that had existed up intol the forties. Is because

1:04:59.120 --> 1:05:01.200
<v Speaker 2>after the established to the State of Israel, both there's

1:05:01.240 --> 1:05:04.800
<v Speaker 2>reprisals against them. They also feel safe from moving to Israel.

1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:07.200
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, as you said, there's like a it causes

1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:12.960
<v Speaker 2>there are huge within Israel, like sectarian divides between different

1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:15.960
<v Speaker 2>points of origin, right, and none of that goes away

1:05:16.280 --> 1:05:19.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, and the it's all, it's all just I

1:05:19.240 --> 1:05:21.320
<v Speaker 2>keep thinking back. The thing I can't really get out

1:05:21.360 --> 1:05:23.880
<v Speaker 2>of my head because I hadn't really known about this

1:05:24.000 --> 1:05:29.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of relationship is the relationship between these Arab Muslims

1:05:29.440 --> 1:05:31.200
<v Speaker 2>who were descended from the people who got kicked out

1:05:31.200 --> 1:05:34.600
<v Speaker 2>of you know, modern day Spain and Portugal Liberia, and

1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:38.040
<v Speaker 2>the Sephardic Jews who are the same right, and this

1:05:38.040 --> 1:05:40.880
<v Speaker 2>this beautiful awareness they have that like we're part of

1:05:40.920 --> 1:05:43.560
<v Speaker 2>each other's past, and you know, even though that they're

1:05:43.560 --> 1:05:45.360
<v Speaker 2>not the same religion, they've preserved a lot of our

1:05:45.400 --> 1:05:47.040
<v Speaker 2>past even better than we did, and so like we

1:05:47.080 --> 1:05:49.880
<v Speaker 2>have this degree of love towards them that doesn't I

1:05:49.880 --> 1:05:53.040
<v Speaker 2>don't think that exists anymore that interrelate those communities in

1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:55.080
<v Speaker 2>a relate like that which.

1:05:55.000 --> 1:05:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Those Youdays have been a race essentially. But like said,

1:05:57.800 --> 1:06:00.160
<v Speaker 3>do you know what's a really interesting anecdote around this

1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:05.800
<v Speaker 3>community is there was a Palestinian refugee in Lebanon who

1:06:06.960 --> 1:06:10.560
<v Speaker 3>kind of remembered vaguely that her grandmother had like very

1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:14.720
<v Speaker 3>specific customs around certain holidays and like kind of strange

1:06:14.760 --> 1:06:18.080
<v Speaker 3>things that her neighbors didn't share. Turns out her grandmother

1:06:18.920 --> 1:06:22.840
<v Speaker 3>was originally from this Jewish community that was expelled from Spain.

1:06:23.200 --> 1:06:26.560
<v Speaker 3>So the Palestinian refugee in Lebanon was able to get

1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Spanish citizenship on the basis of being a descendant of

1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:36.040
<v Speaker 3>jew right, Yeah, I mean absurd.

1:06:35.080 --> 1:06:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absurd. And also like just one more piece of

1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:41.960
<v Speaker 2>evidence that like the long history of like inter relationship

1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:47.720
<v Speaker 2>and like community, like intercommunal existence is way older than

1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:52.320
<v Speaker 2>sectarian hatred, you know, like, h it's just sad.

1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:55.080
<v Speaker 3>Maybe maybe it's funtor rethink nationalism. I don't know believe.

1:06:55.520 --> 1:06:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe it didn't work out great. Maybe maybe it

1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:02.640
<v Speaker 2>was mostly bad. Maybe yeah, I don't know. You know

1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:06.120
<v Speaker 2>what's not mostly bad? The book you just helped put together.

1:07:06.560 --> 1:07:09.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's right, The Handbook on Authoritarianism in the Air

1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:13.400
<v Speaker 3>World is out now with Bluemsbury Politics. I'd also recommend

1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:16.880
<v Speaker 3>my again my episode for it could happen here about

1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:21.720
<v Speaker 3>my great grandmother And if people are interested in the

1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:26.680
<v Speaker 3>Arab Jewish question, look up the Israeli Black Panthers. Yeah,

1:07:26.840 --> 1:07:28.720
<v Speaker 3>very interesting little anecdote there.

1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay, well that's going to do it for us

1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:35.880
<v Speaker 2>at Behind the Bastards this week, and uh yeah, come

1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:38.440
<v Speaker 2>back next week where we'll talk about I know, probably

1:07:38.440 --> 1:07:40.280
<v Speaker 2>a dictator or something. I'll give you guys. I'll give

1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:42.280
<v Speaker 2>you guys a fun one, a fun one, and they're

1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:43.720
<v Speaker 2>none of them are fun ones. I'll give you guys

1:07:43.720 --> 1:07:46.280
<v Speaker 2>a different one sounds good.

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<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

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<v Speaker 1>Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pots. Full video

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<v Speaker 1>episodes that Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix,

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<v Speaker 1>dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit remind me of Netflix,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older

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<v Speaker 1>episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube

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<v Speaker 1>dot com slash at behind the Bastards. We love about

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<v Speaker 1>forty percent of you, statistically speaking,