Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm excited to announce that the eight week
Speaker 1: online Transcend course is back. Become certified in learning the
Speaker 1: latest science of human potential and learn how to live
Speaker 1: a more fulfilling, meaningful, creative, and self actualized life. The
Speaker 1: new cohort starts on June twenty fifth and will include
Speaker 1: more than ten hours of recorded lectures. I have group
Speaker 1: Q and A sessions with me, small group sessions with
Speaker 1: our world class faculty, a plethora of resources and articles
Speaker 1: to support your learning, and an exclusive workbook of growth
Speaker 1: challenges that will help you overcome your deepest fears and
Speaker 1: grow as a whole person. There are even some personalized
Speaker 1: self actualization coaching spots available with our world class faculty.
Speaker 1: Is an add on. I'm happy to announce that just
Speaker 1: for Psychology podcast listeners you can get twenty percent off
Speaker 1: the course but going to transcendcourse dot com and entering
Speaker 1: Psychic Podcast in the coupon box. We will be closing
Speaker 1: registrations soon, so I suggest signing up as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: We have so much fun in this course and you
Speaker 1: will receive a lot of support along your self actualization.
Speaker 2: Jaurre.
Speaker 1: Just go to Transcend coourse dot com. To register and
Speaker 1: enter psych po d c ast psych Podcast in the
Speaker 1: coupon box, I look forward to welcoming you to the
Speaker 1: transcender community.
Speaker 2: Errors in not fully appreciating how my future self interests
Speaker 2: may be different from the ones I have right now,
Speaker 2: and that's another version of really being mean to our
Speaker 2: future selves, or at least not that kind.
Speaker 1: What an amazing concept. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we welcome how Hirshfield to the podcast. How is
Speaker 1: a professor of marketing, behavioral decision making, and psychology at
Speaker 1: UCLA's Anderson School of Management. The recipient of numerous teaching awards,
Speaker 1: how is named one of the most forty outstanding B
Speaker 1: school props under forty in the world by business education
Speaker 1: website Poets and Quants. He publishes a top academic journals
Speaker 1: and also contributes op eds to The New York Times,
Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, and other outlets.
Speaker 1: His latest book is called Your Future Self, How to
Speaker 1: Make Tomorrow Better Today. In this episode, I talked to
Speaker 1: Hal Hirschfield about meeting your future self. Decisions are trade
Speaker 1: offs between the present and the future. Oftentimes it's easier
Speaker 1: to choose what feels gratifying now than to choose what's
Speaker 1: more beneficial in the years to come. How believes this
Speaker 1: is because we feel disconnected to our futureselves. How shows
Speaker 1: us the mental mistakes we commit when thinking about the future.
Speaker 1: He shares with us how to visualize who we want
Speaker 1: to become so we can make choices that are better
Speaker 1: for us now and later. In this episode, we will
Speaker 1: truly help you meet your future self and feel a
Speaker 1: great connection to it. This is a really great conversation.
Speaker 1: I really really respect How and his research. He has
Speaker 1: a lot of scientific integrity, and I also like how
Speaker 1: he is very interested in applying it to help all
Speaker 1: people reach their full potential for their ADO. I bring
Speaker 1: you hal Hirshfield hol so great to have you on
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you, Scott. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy for you to be here. Such an
Speaker 1: awesome topic we're going to talk about today, something it's
Speaker 1: been near and dear to my heart as well as
Speaker 1: yours on the future self. But before we jump into
Speaker 1: the topic of discussion to day, can you tell people
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you do at UCLA's Anderson
Speaker 1: School of Management and what sort of background you have
Speaker 1: because I feel like you've a psychology background.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So I am a professor of marketing,
Speaker 2: behavioral decision making, and psychology. Basically, what that means my
Speaker 2: background psychology, but I teach in the business school, and
Speaker 2: so for all intents and purposes, what that means is,
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in the psychological underpinnings of decision making
Speaker 2: and understanding sort of why consumers do the things that
Speaker 2: they do, why people do the things that they do,
Speaker 2: and then how we can help them do more of
Speaker 2: what they say that they want to do from a
Speaker 2: psychological lens.
Speaker 1: Did you like when you went to grad school? Did
Speaker 1: you were you thinking, oh, I'm definitely going to be
Speaker 1: a professor in a school of management or were you
Speaker 1: thinking it could go any direction?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I wish I could tell you I had this
Speaker 2: very elaborate, you know, planned out path, But I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: it was a series of fratuitous events. I was on
Speaker 2: the train and at the time my girlfriend now my wife,
Speaker 2: had gotten an interview at Northwestern for grad school, and
Speaker 2: I ran into one of my professors. I said, I
Speaker 2: don't know what to do, and he said, you should
Speaker 2: apply to this post doc there it's in a business school.
Speaker 2: It's for people who do the type of research you do.
Speaker 2: I hadn't even thought about it, and like I often think,
Speaker 2: had I not run into whom would, I'd not have
Speaker 2: known about this. And I did this sort of extra
Speaker 2: training that put me into the business school world, specifically
Speaker 2: for people with psych backgrounds. I really loved it because
Speaker 2: it let me do the research I want to do,
Speaker 2: but then also talk to like quote unquote real people
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, I think a lot of people who get
Speaker 1: psychology PhDs don't realize they could make a lot more
Speaker 1: money applying to business schools for jobs.
Speaker 2: It's even like make a difference, Scott.
Speaker 1: Whatever. Even adjuncting, even adjuncting for a business school is
Speaker 1: ten times the salary from AUNT. I mean, you know, no,
Speaker 1: I just think I think people in academia are really exploited.
Speaker 1: So this is just a pet peeve of mine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I know. I'm with you though.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about your future self. What got
Speaker 1: you thinking about this line of work in the first place.
Speaker 2: So to some extent, you know, it's like another one
Speaker 2: of these kind of happy accidents. It was like I
Speaker 2: was in grad school It was around the time of
Speaker 2: the financial crisis, and I had been sitting now with
Speaker 2: my graduate mentor, and not to make this too academic,
Speaker 2: it's really not. She said this funny thing to me.
Speaker 2: She was like, you know, gosh, there's all these people
Speaker 2: who are in this like dire straits when it comes
Speaker 2: to a retirement. You know, economists always talk about this,
Speaker 2: but psychologists have nothing to say, and like, I think
Speaker 2: you should do something about retirement. And I was like,
Speaker 2: that sounds incredibly boring, and she said, you know, that's
Speaker 2: kind of the problem that someone your age thinks that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I started to think more and more about it, and
Speaker 2: it was like, okay, retirement decision making, long term decision making,
Speaker 2: it all involves this trade off between the things I
Speaker 2: want right now and the things I want later. And
Speaker 2: economists had always thought about that in terms of how
Speaker 2: do people make trade offs between these rewards. But I
Speaker 2: started thinking about it more deeply and looking at the philosophy,
Speaker 2: and it turns out, if you want to know how
Speaker 2: people make trade offs between rewards now and later, it
Speaker 2: may make sense to try to figure out how people
Speaker 2: think about themselves now and later. Really got me into
Speaker 2: this mindset of understanding how do I even think about
Speaker 2: the future self and what that means? So that was
Speaker 2: kind of the the impetus there.
Speaker 1: Don't you also have a personal story about the time
Speaker 1: that your wife and you found out you were going
Speaker 1: to be parents? Yeah? Okay, so you want to tell
Speaker 1: that story too?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Why why don't I do that one? Okay? So
Speaker 2: all right, so you asked me how I got into this, So.
Speaker 1: You gave me the nerdy answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I give you a nerd let me give you
Speaker 2: let me give you the let me give you the
Speaker 2: fun Well, I'll give you the funny answer. Okay. So
Speaker 2: all right. So several years ago I got invited to
Speaker 2: this conference in Iceland, of all places, and it's like,
Speaker 2: really not all that often that I get to go
Speaker 2: to a place as cool as that for conference, you know,
Speaker 2: So of course I say yes, And it worked out
Speaker 2: really well with my wife's schedule. We just had to
Speaker 2: go together. She was gonna be kind of like doing
Speaker 2: her own thing while I was there. And it was,
Speaker 2: by the way, it was that the Blue Lagoon spot,
Speaker 2: and so it's this very funny thing where there's like
Speaker 2: all these people walking around, like the hotel spa guess,
Speaker 2: and I'm in this like conference room and I'm feeling
Speaker 2: a little bored because, you know, I'm thinking I'd rather
Speaker 2: be outside. And the first speaker gets up, La Paul.
Speaker 2: She's a philosophy professor at YEAE. She gets up there
Speaker 2: and she's super cool and she goes, imagine that you
Speaker 2: had a one time only opportunity to become a vampire.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh my god, what a weird way
Speaker 2: to start a talk. And she goes on. She's like, look,
Speaker 2: you know, all your friends are telling you it's great,
Speaker 2: that you'll love it. It's this amazing thing. But there's
Speaker 2: there's one catch, which is that once you become a vampire,
Speaker 2: you can't undo that decision, Like you'll always be a
Speaker 2: vampire and you can't really know what it's like until
Speaker 2: you do it. And I'm sitting there and I start
Speaker 2: having this kind of anxiety spiral because like, three days before,
Speaker 2: my wife and I found out that she was pregnant
Speaker 2: with our first kid, and I'm I'm sitting there and
Speaker 2: I'm hearing this thing about vampires and I'm like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, this is this is just like becoming a parent.
Speaker 2: My friends are becoming parents. They're telling me you should
Speaker 2: become a parent too, but you won't know what it's
Speaker 2: like until you until you actually do it. And like,
Speaker 2: as I'm having this anxiety that like Paul stops and
Speaker 2: she's like, of course, this is just an analogy to
Speaker 2: becoming a parent. But what was really interesting about this
Speaker 2: to me was that it highlighted how we can never
Speaker 2: really know our future selves. That once we go through
Speaker 2: changes in our lives, those changes will change who we
Speaker 2: are in ways that we can't anticipate. And it got
Speaker 2: me deeply fascinated in this idea of who are we
Speaker 2: going to become, how do we relate to that person?
Speaker 2: And what do those relationships mean for the decisions that
Speaker 2: we make every day.
Speaker 1: These are such important questions. I feel like some people
Speaker 1: like their individual differences in the extent to which people
Speaker 1: are in connection with their future self or in connection
Speaker 1: with who you know, with some idea of who the
Speaker 1: I want to be And I don't know, I'm always
Speaker 1: amazed at like prodigies are, like people who really really
Speaker 1: young are like I want to do X. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to focus on myself, but like when
Speaker 1: I was asked in like fourth grade what I want
Speaker 1: to be when I grew up? I said, I want
Speaker 1: to be a PhD academic psychologist. So I feel like
Speaker 1: I was in connection with my future self for a
Speaker 1: long time.
Speaker 2: Well, Scott, you know what's funny is that that's when I
Speaker 2: when I was asked the same question, my answer was
Speaker 2: the opposite because my parents are both psychologists, and I said,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a psychologist. That the one
Speaker 2: thing I know I know.
Speaker 1: What to do. But of course that is super funny.
Speaker 1: I was trying to imagine what the exact opposite of
Speaker 1: a PhD academic psychologist not want a clown. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: so there are seems to be individual differences, and like
Speaker 1: what explains those individual differences? You know, like it does
Speaker 1: seem like some people live for the moment all the time.
Speaker 1: I guess they discounting is relevant here as well, this discussion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, I mean, to some extent, we all
Speaker 2: choose now over later in various ways. Right, But you're
Speaker 2: right that overall I think there are individual differences here.
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of what my research has been
Speaker 2: uncovering is how do different people relate to their future selves?
Speaker 2: And how are some people more connected and other people
Speaker 2: are less connected, and how those sense of connections can
Speaker 2: really impact you know, your likelihood to save or eat
Speaker 2: healthier exercises, you know, and so on and so on.
Speaker 2: But you know, the question of where these come from
Speaker 2: is a really deep question and it's one we're still exploring.
Speaker 2: You know. Of course, age is one sort of situational factor, right,
Speaker 2: So the older I get, the more connected I am
Speaker 2: to my future self because life becomes a little more stable.
Speaker 2: But even then there are differences. You know, It's not
Speaker 2: like everybody goes, you know, in lockstep, you know, in
Speaker 2: sync with each other. If I have a more stable upbringing,
Speaker 2: then not. You know that that helps explain some of
Speaker 2: these differences. But then again, and still there are differences there,
Speaker 2: and you know, it's it's just kind of an open
Speaker 2: question to figure out why is it easier for some
Speaker 2: people to relate to that future self than others? One
Speaker 2: thing I've really been exploring and suspect maybe part of
Speaker 2: it is, you know, who are the.
Speaker 1: Models that I have? Right?
Speaker 2: And am am I likely to see sort of you know,
Speaker 2: I'll say, like proxies for my future self? Am I
Speaker 2: so fortunate that I can see older people? In my
Speaker 2: life that represent the person I want to become or
Speaker 2: do I not have that? And you know, and this
Speaker 2: is all speculation, it would be really nice to be
Speaker 2: able to sort of systematically examine the role that those
Speaker 2: sorts of people play in our lives.
Speaker 1: And really it's that speaks to the importance of you know,
Speaker 1: for like underserved populations and school interventions showing really inspirational
Speaker 1: examples of a future what a future self could look like,
Speaker 1: even though it's not maybe immediately around them where they're
Speaker 1: growing up. Yes, so important. The topic you study touches
Speaker 1: on so much, many fundamental existential issues. So an interesting
Speaker 1: question is like are we the same over time? You know,
Speaker 1: like how much do we change? Personality change? You know,
Speaker 1: these are topics. I'm I'm you know, maybe this is
Speaker 1: just selfishly I'm interested in, but it seems relevant to
Speaker 1: the work you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. I've been fascinated by these team
Speaker 2: questions too. You know. It was funny I I started,
Speaker 2: you know, asking this exact question, are the we the
Speaker 2: same over time? And I, you know, the more and
Speaker 2: more I dug in, I realized that part of the
Speaker 2: problem here is like how you even asked the questions
Speaker 2: like what does same mean you know, and and not
Speaker 2: you know, not to get too sort of in the
Speaker 2: weeds here, but but it turns out there's no black
Speaker 2: and white answer. Brent Roberts and Roddicka Damon have done
Speaker 2: some fascinating work on these questions. One of the ways
Speaker 2: that I've come to think about it is that there
Speaker 2: are many ways that we do change over time. So
Speaker 2: you know, if you look at the five, you know,
Speaker 2: the big five core personality traits, in a ten year span,
Speaker 2: you can expect to change a decent amount on one
Speaker 2: of those traits, which is kind of wild, right. You
Speaker 2: could get more conscientious or more open, or less extroverted
Speaker 2: or whatever. So you look at that, on the one hand,
Speaker 2: you say, wow, one of those changes, that's crazy. And
Speaker 2: then the other way to look at it is four
Speaker 2: of them sort of stay the same, and you know
Speaker 2: that that sort of suggests it's it goes both directions.
Speaker 2: One thing I really like, one way to look at
Speaker 2: this that I think is so telling is to think
Speaker 2: about what's called core moral traits. So Nina Stromanger, she's
Speaker 2: done some really cool work on this, and she suggests
Speaker 2: that those are the things that we point to as
Speaker 2: making us stay quote unquote the same over time. So
Speaker 2: and when I say core moral traits, I mean like,
Speaker 2: are you someone who's considered kind or compassionate, or or
Speaker 2: or sardonic or biting, you know, these sorts of things
Speaker 2: that we say that that's that's kind of who you are.
Speaker 2: And if I see in you that I haven't seen
Speaker 2: you in ten years or twenty years or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: but but you're still kind at the heart, or you're
Speaker 2: still sarcastic at the heart, that I say, Sure, are
Speaker 2: lots of circumstantial things have changed, but in some ways,
Speaker 2: at the core, you are the same. You are who
Speaker 2: you are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't you know how much does big
Speaker 1: five personality traits really tell us who who you really are? Absolutely, like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who share the same level
Speaker 1: of openness as I do. And how does that make
Speaker 1: me so uniquely? Scott Barry Kaufman. Yeah, what does it mean?
Speaker 1: What does it mean to be uniquely Scott Berry Kaufman.
Speaker 2: Yep, you know, I mean that's I think you asked
Speaker 2: the question exactly the right way. I'm sure by the way,
Speaker 2: you know you could do the service. You can ask
Speaker 2: all sorts of people in your life, and they would
Speaker 2: probably converge on a set of things, traits that go
Speaker 2: far beyond openness, right, Yeah, And if those changed, my
Speaker 2: bet is that people would no longer see you as
Speaker 2: the same and that you know, your friends may change,
Speaker 2: your relationships may change too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. So, how do I know that the
Speaker 1: future of me is really me?
Speaker 2: You don't, And I think that's confronting in a way.
Speaker 2: You know, even next week, I suspect I will be me,
Speaker 2: but I don't know what will happen between now and then,
Speaker 2: you know. And I find this to be sort of
Speaker 2: existentially terrifying at times to say, like, you know, I
Speaker 2: really can't know. I can't know what changes will happen
Speaker 2: in the world or my friend group or in my family,
Speaker 2: and I can't know how those changes will change me,
Speaker 2: but to some extent, and that's probably why we don't
Speaker 2: think about these things all the time. To some extent,
Speaker 2: you know, you still or rather my sort of take
Speaker 2: on this is that you still you still plan, uh,
Speaker 2: you still sort of go about doing what you're doing,
Speaker 2: recognizing that there could be some changes along the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I've been thinking about the relationship between the
Speaker 1: affect of forecasting literature and the work you do. And
Speaker 1: you know, we're so bad at knowing how we're going
Speaker 1: to feel later on if we make certain decisions, and
Speaker 1: we often also overestimate how much something will hurt, you know,
Speaker 1: or or even how much we'll enjoy something. Does that
Speaker 1: get in the way of that over and underestimations of
Speaker 1: our emotions for the future. Does that get in the
Speaker 1: way sometimes of us really moving toward the self we
Speaker 1: really want to become.
Speaker 2: I think it absolutely does, right, I mean, and you
Speaker 2: can think about different ways that it does, right, So,
Speaker 2: you know, on a very sort of surface level, right,
Speaker 2: I could imagine that like certain financial expenses or even
Speaker 2: time expenditures I think will make me happier in the
Speaker 2: future than they actually will, you know. And then and
Speaker 2: I say, why did I spend my time doing that thing?
Speaker 2: Why did I spend my money on that thing? Like
Speaker 2: it didn't breed as much happiness as I was expecting
Speaker 2: it would, you know. The flip side, as you mentioned,
Speaker 2: I think is also really important, which is that sometimes
Speaker 2: we overestimate the duration of the negative, you know. And
Speaker 2: it's kind of nice in a way, right, Like nothing
Speaker 2: will be as bad as it seems.
Speaker 1: After the fact, nothing will be as good as it
Speaker 1: seems either.
Speaker 2: Nothing will be as good as it seems either, And
Speaker 2: I think you know, in both directions, it's easy to
Speaker 2: think how those kind of forecasting errors could prevent us
Speaker 2: from doing the types of things that come back to
Speaker 2: sort of our core mission, the core things that we
Speaker 2: say we want to do, because we're not really fully
Speaker 2: able to step into the shoes of our future selves
Speaker 2: and see the world through their eyes and figure out
Speaker 2: how will this decision impact me later?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Is it because our future selves often look like
Speaker 1: strangers to us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is what a lot of the work
Speaker 2: I've been doing sort of circles around that I'm in
Speaker 2: some ways. In some ways, these future selves do look
Speaker 2: like strangers. I mean, we've looked at this variety of levels.
Speaker 2: You know. One of my old studies does this on
Speaker 2: a neuroimaging level, where in the brain the future self
Speaker 2: looks more like the way another person looks. What's interesting
Speaker 2: about this to me is that it's it's not always
Speaker 2: the case that my future self is going to be
Speaker 2: perceived as a stranger. It might be perceived as another person.
Speaker 2: But the type of other person, I think is what
Speaker 2: what ends up really mattering for our decisions.
Speaker 1: M yeah, is it the type of other person you
Speaker 1: want to become, or is the type of other person
Speaker 1: that you it's feels so alienated from who you currently
Speaker 1: are that you don't even to feel hope that you'll
Speaker 1: ever get there or or desire to be come exactly.
Speaker 2: And I think I think you know, that sort of
Speaker 2: motivational element is hugely important there, right, And so if
Speaker 2: i'm you know, if I'm seeing that future self as
Speaker 2: if it's another person, but sort of this bleak, bleak
Speaker 2: other who I don't want to become, you could understand
Speaker 2: why you wouldn't do things today for their benefit. It's
Speaker 2: like almost doesn't make sense. But if they are seen
Speaker 2: in a more hopeful light, if they're seen as somebody
Speaker 2: who I want to take care of, you know, the
Speaker 2: way that we think about our our partners or our
Speaker 2: aging parents, you know, our kids, our close friends, if
Speaker 2: we think of them that way, and I think that's
Speaker 2: really important because it's not like those are people that
Speaker 2: we want to turn into, but they may be people
Speaker 2: who we care about and who we want to do
Speaker 2: things for to make their lives better if that's how
Speaker 2: we think of our future selves now, it can become
Speaker 2: a little bit more understandable that we would we would
Speaker 2: do things today for their benefit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so what are other some of the mental
Speaker 1: mistakes we make when thinking about the future.
Speaker 2: Okay, so one one big mistake is that we get
Speaker 2: overly anchored on the present, right And so what I
Speaker 2: mean by that is that we get so sucked into
Speaker 2: what's happening right now that it's it's not as if
Speaker 2: we the future suddenly arrives and it's surprising that it's there.
Speaker 2: It's just that we've put like all of our focus
Speaker 2: on right now. It's kind of like if you're teaching
Speaker 2: a classroom and you're you see other people, but you
Speaker 2: only look at one student the whole time. It's like
Speaker 2: it would be understandable if everybody else, you know, lost
Speaker 2: lost interest. You're not paying attention to them, right So,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a little the same way. It's like,
Speaker 2: if we just look at our current self right now
Speaker 2: and and fail to really consider deeply our future selves,
Speaker 2: we're going to start getting getting taken in by temptations today.
Speaker 2: We're going to start sort of overweighting present rewards and not,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of making some trade offs which we
Speaker 2: now and later. You know, psychologists call this present bias.
Speaker 2: But the basic idea is that we just get sucked
Speaker 2: into what's happening right now, because of course this is
Speaker 2: the time period that we're living in.
Speaker 1: What about focusing too much on your past as well,
Speaker 1: like you know, oh, you know, this happened to me
Speaker 1: when I was three, Therefore I can't move on.
Speaker 2: There's some great work on regret and how we deal
Speaker 2: with it. One of the things I like to think
Speaker 2: about here is that there is a use case for
Speaker 2: these sorts of thoughts. Right if I think back to
Speaker 2: the past and have regrets or I wish something went
Speaker 2: a different way, One way of dealing with that is
Speaker 2: a sort of hopeful and productive way by saying I'm
Speaker 2: going to change the way that I'm living now to
Speaker 2: prevent that sort of thing from happening, or to go
Speaker 2: a different course in my life. So, in other words,
Speaker 2: I think that's the healthy function that regrets serves. The
Speaker 2: problem I think that you're speaking to is when we
Speaker 2: almost overapply that and we get so focused on the
Speaker 2: past that we're doing it in a way that doesn't allow.
Speaker 1: For us to move on, move on.
Speaker 2: And incorporate those feelings moving forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that happens a lot, and I think
Speaker 1: that happens a lot in therapy. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: how much therapy is future self based versus past self focused.
Speaker 1: I mean, Martin Seligman and some colleagues have tried to
Speaker 1: create the field of prospection, and some clinical psychologists have
Speaker 1: tried to apply it a little bit, you know, but
Speaker 1: still perspection is lacking in a lot of clinical realms.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it, you know, it is, And I
Speaker 2: think what's really interesting about that work is that perspection
Speaker 2: isn't one flavor, right, you know. Perspection generally speaking is
Speaker 2: thinking ahead the future. But there's some really interesting work
Speaker 2: suggesting you you can you can do that in variety
Speaker 2: diferent ways. You can simulate and try to like sort
Speaker 2: of imagine what the future is going to be like.
Speaker 2: You can make predictions, you can make intentions, or you
Speaker 2: can plan, and all of those are forms of thinking ahead.
Speaker 2: But I think you can quickly see how some are
Speaker 2: more or could be more productive than others. You know,
Speaker 2: if I'm if I'm just sort of spinning my wheels
Speaker 2: and just imagining the bad things that could happen to
Speaker 2: me because I'm socially anxious and I'm going to a
Speaker 2: party and I'm worried about saying something dumb that I'm
Speaker 2: going to regret. That's a form of perspection, but I
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to be all that helpful. Is
Speaker 2: there a world in which I can plan and think about, Okay,
Speaker 2: what will I do if I'm feeling nervous? What will
Speaker 2: I what will be something that I say? I mean,
Speaker 2: even this sounds so silly, but even like you know,
Speaker 2: planning conversation topics is a form of that's a form
Speaker 2: of perspection. It's a form of planning. And people say
Speaker 2: people say, oh, that that's taking away all the organic,
Speaker 2: authentic aspects away from a conversation with and then again
Speaker 2: it makes for good conversations. It makes it better and
Speaker 2: it reduces some of the anxiety there.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, if I didn't do that for my podcast,
Speaker 1: what the hell would I mean?
Speaker 2: A great example, it's a great example.
Speaker 1: No, it's a really good point. You know, my my
Speaker 1: my advisor, one of my advisors in grad school, Throwmall
Speaker 1: Singers cited positive constructive daydreaming, and it was very I
Speaker 1: think it was a very important contribution to the psychology
Speaker 1: literature to say, well, that's daydreaming, and not all forms
Speaker 1: of daydreaming are bad, you know, like Freud. Freud thought
Speaker 1: daydreaming was regressive to the to the womb or something,
Speaker 1: regression to them. What does it mean really? And I
Speaker 1: don't get it, but that, uh, it's some daydreaming can
Speaker 1: be ruminative, ruminative and unproductive. That you made that point clearly,
Speaker 1: but some can be very positive and constructive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely right. And you know it's funny because
Speaker 2: you think about that, you know, the work that singer
Speaker 2: Dad and that you're talking about there, and you sort
Speaker 2: of put that up against the sort of present day
Speaker 2: you know, mindfulness and being focused on the present, and
Speaker 2: there gets to be this real sort of tension that
Speaker 2: I don't even think should exist, right, And because you
Speaker 2: know that is the constructive daydreaming, the planfulness there, that's
Speaker 2: a way of allowing you to be present, you know,
Speaker 2: moving forward into the future. And you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: begrudge anybody that doing that, and it could be helpful, right,
Speaker 2: But is it anti present? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, you know, I don't get me
Speaker 1: started on that topic, because I've been like I've been
Speaker 1: like so in terms of the neuroscience, I've been arguing
Speaker 1: that the mindfulness folks really neglect the value of the
Speaker 1: default mode brain network, and they focus too much on
Speaker 1: the executive attention brain network, as though like daydreams must
Speaker 1: be abolished from the kingdom, abandoned. But the resolution of
Speaker 1: that paradox is just you can be intensely mindful to
Speaker 1: your daydreams. It's like, that's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I mean I would,
Speaker 2: I would put a lot of money wagering that, you know,
Speaker 2: I would probably result in better outcomes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean you can be intensely mindful of
Speaker 1: the outside world. Yes, you can be tetly mindful of
Speaker 1: your breath. You can also be intensely mindful of your
Speaker 1: future goals, your aspirations, your dreams, your future, self, your future.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean absolutely, and and and not one of
Speaker 2: these needs to be at the cost of the other.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like maybe it's literally, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: literally in that moment you can't do all. But there's
Speaker 2: no world in which you know, we're saying these have
Speaker 2: to be you know, mutually exclusive forever, Yeah, forever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of moments where I'm
Speaker 1: so deeply absorbed in my daydreams that I forget that
Speaker 1: there is a world outside of me. That is true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why didn't you answer my phone call? Yeah, my mom
Speaker 1: or something like that was daydreaming.
Speaker 2: That's a good repression. If she's okay with that.
Speaker 1: Have you met my mom? I love her? I love her.
Speaker 1: She's the best. So what are some areas or demeans
Speaker 1: where we fall short of our long term goals?
Speaker 2: There's the classic ones, right, so you know, we we
Speaker 2: can point to undersaving and you know, overspending or overeating
Speaker 2: and you know, not doing enough healthy exercise, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But you know, lately I've become much more interested in
Speaker 2: time expenditures and the ways that that's another form of
Speaker 2: sort of present future trade off where if we're not careful,
Speaker 2: we can end up dissatisfyed with our choices, you know.
Speaker 2: And so I mean it's easy to point to, Oh,
Speaker 2: I meant to save more and I didn't. I meant
Speaker 2: to not you know, like splurge on dinner this weekend,
Speaker 2: but then I got wrapped up in the moment. That's
Speaker 2: of course an example. But I think you know these
Speaker 2: cases where I I tell myself I want to connect
Speaker 2: more to my friends, my friends from you know, going
Speaker 2: way back, or even my friends who I'm friends with now,
Speaker 2: and I can never find enough time. And then I
Speaker 2: look and I say, how much time was I just
Speaker 2: like sitting around on my phone today? How much time
Speaker 2: did I spend?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Oh, I got tired at night, I didn't feel like
Speaker 2: making plans or something like that. Those are those are
Speaker 2: the same sort of decisions where it's easy to prioritize
Speaker 2: the temptations right now and not then do the deeper
Speaker 2: work to get connected to the bigger picture that that
Speaker 2: probably will result in more satisfaction or happiness later.
Speaker 1: On later on, But it's so hard for us to
Speaker 1: justify later on when right now something might be hedonistic.
Speaker 2: Well okay, but then let me let me like add
Speaker 2: a wrinkle to that. Right the time expenditure is a
Speaker 2: good one where it's not like me taking time to
Speaker 2: call my old friend will only benefit me later, It'll
Speaker 2: also benefit me right now because it's true probably going
Speaker 2: to be a good time, you know, And why don't
Speaker 2: I do it?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: It's going to be awkward to catch up after a while,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna have to find thirty minute. I'n'na have
Speaker 2: to find an hour to catch up. And it's just
Speaker 2: easier to go on Instagram or something like that, right,
Speaker 2: And the reality is, you know, we know this from
Speaker 2: the research. It's a lot better than we think it's
Speaker 2: going to be. It's not as awkward, and and it's
Speaker 2: nice to do that ketchup. You know.
Speaker 1: It's a really great point. You know, you're often it's
Speaker 1: not like you wake up the moresell you want to
Speaker 1: go to the gym, but you often find after going
Speaker 1: to the gym, you're like a different person. Like you
Speaker 1: do you do the thing, you make the action, you
Speaker 1: become a different person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And it's I love that
Speaker 2: example too, because that's like today, Like you know, some
Speaker 2: of these things we're talking about, it's over the years, retirement, retirement,
Speaker 2: like decades, you know, and yeah, yeah, and I wake
Speaker 2: up and I'm like, I don't I don't want to go.
Speaker 2: And you know, all those days that I don't go,
Speaker 2: I know how I feel at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: I feel a little bit more, you know, jittery or whatever,
Speaker 2: and I sort of wish I had just gone on
Speaker 2: a walk or run or whatever it is, whatever, the
Speaker 2: sort of flavor of exercise we're thinking about, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it changes you to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So why do people have such a hard time
Speaker 1: falling through in their plans for their long term goals?
Speaker 1: It must be related to the same reasons why they
Speaker 1: fall short of their long term goals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, to some extent, I think I think
Speaker 2: some of it boils down to getting overly anchored on
Speaker 2: right now. Right, we sort of talked about this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's other versions to where we convince ourselves that
Speaker 2: we're thinking ahead of the future, but we're not doing
Speaker 2: it in that deep of a way, you know. So
Speaker 2: I think of procrastination as a great example, where I
Speaker 2: tell myself I'll do something next week. It's it's not
Speaker 2: as if I'm not thinking ahead, like I'm saying that's
Speaker 2: when I'll do this thing, But like if I really
Speaker 2: thought deeply about it, I'm not I'm not going to
Speaker 2: finally take care of that like stack of papers on
Speaker 2: the dining room table, or like I'm not finally going
Speaker 2: to like organize my kids art projects. That I've been
Speaker 2: like saying I'll do for a while like next week,
Speaker 2: but I when I like, am not doing it this week.
Speaker 2: But like there's other versions of this, you know, by
Speaker 2: the way, like saying yes to things in the future
Speaker 2: that I later regret, Like that's another version of I'll
Speaker 2: think ahead to the future, not that deep. That's like
Speaker 2: another sort of like mistake that makes it harder for
Speaker 2: us to do the things that we say we want
Speaker 2: to do. And there's like one other one, which is
Speaker 2: that we sometimes we sometimes make a mistake in both
Speaker 2: directions where I I get overly anchored on my feelings
Speaker 2: right now and use those to project ahead, and I
Speaker 2: sort of say, like I'm making a decision for my
Speaker 2: future self, but what I'm really doing is sort of
Speaker 2: like just using today's feelings to do that. Right. So
Speaker 2: I'm in the classic examples like you know, go to
Speaker 2: the grocery store and I'm right after dinner, I'm not
Speaker 2: that hungry, and I come home and during the week
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, like where are my snacks. I should have
Speaker 2: bought more food, or you know the rever you know,
Speaker 2: I go they're hungry, and I get all this food
Speaker 2: that I end up throwing out. That's the sort of
Speaker 2: like classic surface level example, but like there's other versions
Speaker 2: of this, right, Like I you know, if I'm depressed,
Speaker 2: I think I will always remain this way, right, And
Speaker 2: if I have like a surge of energy, I may
Speaker 2: take on projects that are too big because I think
Speaker 2: I'll continue to have this same level of energy moving forward,
Speaker 2: and then like halfway through the project, I'm wondering, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: why did I do that?
Speaker 1: That'sespecially hard for people to buipolar disorder. Yeah, absolutely, to
Speaker 1: throw that wrench in there that this is a mental
Speaker 1: health podcast, Yeah, no, I mean it's absolutely right. You
Speaker 1: might you might be going through a phase, a matic
Speaker 1: phase where you think you you know, you can handle
Speaker 1: all this with your energy, and then you come crashing
Speaker 1: down or you really won't have it. In your book,
Speaker 1: you talk about a certain class of mistakes you call
Speaker 1: time travel mistakes. Yeah, what things followed in that category?
Speaker 2: Right? So you know when I talk about time travel,
Speaker 2: I mean I should be careful, Right, we're not really
Speaker 2: talking obviously, I think we know we're not talking about
Speaker 2: real time travel. I'm really interested in mental time travel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know, I know, yeah, and I know you know
Speaker 2: that right. But it's this concept I love right because
Speaker 2: we are, on the one hand, we're so good at
Speaker 2: this as human beings. Like it's wild to think about
Speaker 2: how I can like jump ahead ten years in my
Speaker 2: mind and also think back to now and at the
Speaker 2: same time think back to when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: and like, all of these things canna happen in the
Speaker 2: span of seconds. But at the same time, we're also like,
Speaker 2: we make some mistakes, right, So I you know, in
Speaker 2: the book I talk about three types of error. So
Speaker 2: one of them I said we miss our flight. When
Speaker 2: I mean by that is we It's like you're at
Speaker 2: the airport bar and you're having a drink and you
Speaker 2: look up and realize like, oh no, my flight is left,
Speaker 2: and you know what that is is basically like again,
Speaker 2: like being hyper focused on right now.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Another version of this is, you know what I call
Speaker 2: poor trip planning. Where I am, you know, sort of
Speaker 2: thinking ahead. I tell my stuff I'm thinking ahead, and
Speaker 2: I haven't really planned deeply. It's like I'm going on
Speaker 2: a trip, you know, I land in Boston and realize
Speaker 2: like I've done nothing, and then I spend half my
Speaker 2: time there like figuring out what to do. It's kind
Speaker 2: of wasted, it's inefficient, it's not that good. And then
Speaker 2: you know, the other time traveling error I talk about
Speaker 2: is is what I call packing the wrong clothes. And
Speaker 2: this is the one where I'm using I'm using my
Speaker 2: present day feelings to project those ahead. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: in I'm in Chicago, it's winter. I'm going to Miami.
Speaker 2: I know it's going to be warmer there, but I
Speaker 2: but I don't. I don't quite move away from just
Speaker 2: how cold is in Chicago, and I end up packing
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that I don't need. Now, you
Speaker 2: could say, well, what's the error there, Well, I could
Speaker 2: have used that space for something different. But but in
Speaker 2: when it comes to time travel, the errors in not
Speaker 2: fully appreciating how my future self's interests may be different
Speaker 2: from the ones I have right now. And that's another
Speaker 2: version of really being mean to our future selves, or
Speaker 2: at least not that kind.
Speaker 1: What a what an amazing concept being mean to your
Speaker 1: future self? Wow? Okay, this stuff is pretty deep. Everyone
Speaker 1: ultimately wants to self actionalize in my world, you know,
Speaker 1: in my kind of real area of research and that
Speaker 1: and that kind of actualization of their full potential is
Speaker 1: always a future thing that no one's ever going to
Speaker 1: achieve actually achieve. We always get closer and closer to it.
Speaker 1: I mean, we never like precisely become that future self, right,
Speaker 1: It's always like a direction, not a destination.
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. And it's where you know,
Speaker 2: I love the metaphor of the future self as another person,
Speaker 2: but it's where that breaks down, right, because I never
Speaker 2: turn into another person. I never turn into my spouse
Speaker 2: or my best friend, and you know, you never There's
Speaker 2: not like I don't think there's a moment where we
Speaker 2: wake up and say, now I have become my future self.
Speaker 2: But I think the way you said it is exactly right.
Speaker 2: It's more of a path on the way to becoming
Speaker 2: that that version of us that that we want. One
Speaker 2: thing I think is really interesting here is some some
Speaker 2: researchers have found that when we think about turning into
Speaker 2: our future selves, we incorporate the notion of positive change
Speaker 2: into similarity. What that means is, I think I can
Speaker 2: become more of you know, quote unquote who I am,
Speaker 2: while at the same time changing right, So I'm becoming
Speaker 2: more magnanimous, more open, more empathetic, more patient. Those are
Speaker 2: big changes, but I incorporate that that change into like
Speaker 2: now sort of arriving at the ideal or the actualized
Speaker 2: version of me in the future. It's kind of a
Speaker 2: nice trick, a nice little psychological quirk.
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, yeah, no, I like it. All we can
Speaker 1: do is make individual momentary choices that either move us
Speaker 1: in the direction of who we want to become or
Speaker 1: drastically move us in the opposite direction, and choices choices
Speaker 1: that up well.
Speaker 2: Multi that what you what you just said is so
Speaker 2: important because we're really bad at seeing that math, right,
Speaker 2: I know. We're so good at making exceptions, I know, right,
Speaker 2: And so I can like, I know that, you know,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't snack as much at night as I like do, right,
Speaker 2: And it's like and it's like, but like every night
Speaker 2: I can come up with a really good excuse why
Speaker 2: tonight it's the night that I should uber eat to
Speaker 2: we probably do from the same place, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's really fascinating to me because we don't we don't
Speaker 2: see how all of those things add up in a
Speaker 2: way because we're not like it's forced to you know,
Speaker 2: like if I order the large froyo tonight. It's not
Speaker 2: as if tomorrow I suddenly wake up looking different or
Speaker 2: feeling wildly different.
Speaker 1: You can do it seven days in a row and
Speaker 1: you actually will.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true. It's so true.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, that that one, that one hit, that one
Speaker 1: quit close to it resonates. So on a more positive note,
Speaker 1: what are some of the solutions people can do to
Speaker 1: implement to do better?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really I'm glad that you asked that,
Speaker 2: because I am ultimately hopeful about this stuff. I'm ultimately optimistic,
Speaker 2: you know, And I know and I know you know that.
Speaker 2: I know that you are too, but you know, so
Speaker 2: I I've thought about it in terms of three buckets.
Speaker 2: So one of them is is making the future self
Speaker 2: more emotionally close to who we are now. To try
Speaker 2: to figure that out, the gist there is, well, you
Speaker 2: can kind of steal from what charities do really well.
Speaker 2: Charities make charity recipients more vivid. They tell a story,
Speaker 2: they show a picture, you know, and so I sure
Speaker 2: do you know, and they do it really well. I
Speaker 2: mean it's not always perfect, but it's like they know
Speaker 2: that that's so much better than you know, a paragraph
Speaker 2: of statistics, right, and so I mean, you think about
Speaker 2: some of these things that we use to try to
Speaker 2: motivate people, Like, you know, financial advisors they show you
Speaker 2: that compound interest chart and they think that's emotional, and
Speaker 2: it's like, it's not. Most people don't really care about that.
Speaker 2: They do though, they love they love that they do
Speaker 2: they and they think that's emotional, but not everybody else does,
Speaker 2: you know. So so we you know, we've we've played
Speaker 2: with different ideas. We've you know, we've we've literally used
Speaker 2: age progression and we've shown people what they look like.
Speaker 2: And actually, just a week or two ago, a company
Speaker 2: in Europe ask people to upload a photo of themselves
Speaker 2: and then write down what an ideal day and their
Speaker 2: retirement looks like. And so this woman writes, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll be running through a field of poppies with my
Speaker 2: three dogs, and and like you know, then they use
Speaker 2: AI tools and like suddenly and in seconds you have
Speaker 2: this like beautiful picture of this woman with like three
Speaker 2: golden retrievers in this field of purple flowers.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like's not that's not like the only solution, right, So,
Speaker 2: I mean, there's also ways to try to make the
Speaker 2: future self more vivid by. One of the techniques I
Speaker 2: like is by writing a letter too and then from
Speaker 2: your future self, which is so nice because it forces
Speaker 2: you to really step into the shoes of that of
Speaker 2: that future person. So that's one big bucket, right, make
Speaker 2: the future self closer. Another one is to you know,
Speaker 2: almost stop for a second and recognize that all of
Speaker 2: these back and forth, all these present future things, the
Speaker 2: person who making all of the sacrifices is the present self.
Speaker 2: That's like kind of a bad relationship, right, Like, imagine
Speaker 2: you're in a relationship, like you're the one who's always
Speaker 2: always sacrificing, right right, great point, you'd be like, you
Speaker 2: know what, it's time to live for me right now,
Speaker 2: you know. And so so one thing that I've been
Speaker 2: really excited about exploring is, you know, what are the
Speaker 2: ways that we can almost turn the dial down on
Speaker 2: how painful those sacrifices feel and almost reframe things? Right, So,
Speaker 2: how can I make that present day sacrifice not feel
Speaker 2: so bad? How can I like connect it to the
Speaker 2: bigger picture, or how can I I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: my like one research example that I love, we ask
Speaker 2: people if they wanted to sign up for a savings
Speaker 2: account that was either one hundred and fifty bucks a
Speaker 2: month or five dollars a day. It's the same amount
Speaker 2: of money, but five bucks a day, it just feels
Speaker 2: it feels easier. Like most people can say, like not most,
Speaker 2: a lot of people can say there's something I'll give
Speaker 2: up for five bucks a day that dials, you know,
Speaker 2: the notch down on the psychological pain, and people are
Speaker 2: wildly more likely to sign up for that account when
Speaker 2: it's framed us five dollars other four times is likely
Speaker 2: to sign up. So I've been trying to explore, like,
Speaker 2: what are some other ways that we can make the
Speaker 2: present sacrifices feel easier to undertake? And then I'll say
Speaker 2: the third bucket is to recognize that, despite my best intentions,
Speaker 2: I'll probably screw up. Right, So, you know, we're having
Speaker 2: this conversation today about how I don't want to snack tonight,
Speaker 2: and like, I know, I'm going to get home and
Speaker 2: it's been a long day and I'm going to like
Speaker 2: open up the pantry and I'm going to see the
Speaker 2: like leftover candy and be like, you know, and so
Speaker 2: one thing that I've really come to appreciate is commitment.
Speaker 2: Device is ways that I can try to put the
Speaker 2: you know, almost the like guardrails on to make sure
Speaker 2: I don't screw up when faced with temptation. These have
Speaker 2: been around for a long time, but what I've become
Speaker 2: deeply interested in is what are the ways that we
Speaker 2: can try to motivate people to take on commitment devices,
Speaker 2: Because it turns out they're really effective once they're adopted,
Speaker 2: but they're not adopted that much because people don't want
Speaker 2: to do something that could put them in trouble later on. Right,
Speaker 2: So how do we change that messaging? What parts of
Speaker 2: the experience do we get people to think about? And
Speaker 2: that's an ongoing question that I'm currently exploring right now.
Speaker 1: Well, I see why you're in a marketing school that
Speaker 1: those are questions a lot of marketers ask as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really are. I mean, you know, it's funny
Speaker 2: I as, you know, as a quick previewer. This is
Speaker 2: really preliminary, but this is work with one of my
Speaker 2: graduate students, Megan Weeber. We I went in thinking if
Speaker 2: you get people to consider the pain, you know, how
Speaker 2: bad they'll feel if they go off course, that'll help
Speaker 2: them sign up, you know, for commitment device, you know,
Speaker 2: instead what we're finding is when you get people to
Speaker 2: think about how good they'll feel for following through ends up.
Speaker 2: I love that moving the needle and it's it's really
Speaker 2: nice in a way because it's like from a marketing
Speaker 2: standpoint too, it's like, you don't want to make people
Speaker 2: feel bad, you know, so this is really preliminary, you know,
Speaker 2: but it's it's something I'm excited about exploring.
Speaker 1: I think that's really profound and true. Make yeah, people
Speaker 1: feel good when they you know, their self esteem increases,
Speaker 1: you know, if you can meddle into their self esteem
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know, competence and self worth are
Speaker 1: two major dimensions of self esteem, right, and if you
Speaker 1: can make them feel more competent by letting them think
Speaker 1: they've made some decision that where they've taken control of
Speaker 1: their life, absolutely can affect that in some sort of
Speaker 1: like a prize like congrats you've you've you know, Apple
Speaker 1: does that with the fitness app. You know you the
Speaker 1: trophy for ten thousand steps, you know, the trophy who
Speaker 1: gives a fuck about it? From imaginary from Apple?
Speaker 2: Exactly did you give me any of your money?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: But I did get three rings that went all the
Speaker 2: way around.
Speaker 1: Why does anyone care about that? I've always wondered, But
Speaker 1: people seem to care, or else they wouldn't they you know,
Speaker 1: they tested it and marketed you know, yeah, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: a marketer for that wouldn't still.
Speaker 2: Be a wouldn't still be a feature if they didn't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But now, how do these solutions apply beyond the
Speaker 1: individual to groups? You know and groups future selves? Do
Speaker 1: future selves of organizations?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: We imagine working in an organization and you're trying to
Speaker 1: motivate everyone to be like, look, everyone, this is the
Speaker 1: future of this organization if we work it hard at this.
Speaker 1: That seems very relevant too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and I think, you know, I
Speaker 2: want to get I want to be careful about not
Speaker 2: you know, saying corporations are people too, But you know,
Speaker 2: I think but but no, I'm kidding, of course, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that is part of it, right, that an organization has
Speaker 2: its own personality, and that means it has a current
Speaker 2: personality and ultimately a future personality. One bit of research
Speaker 2: that I think is really relevant here is that when
Speaker 2: when you get CEOs or you know, executives to sort
Speaker 2: of do a time traveling exercise, the letters that they
Speaker 2: write end up being more vivid and more emotional and
Speaker 2: more concrete, and those are types of things that can
Speaker 2: you know, help employees and help members of an organization
Speaker 2: feel more committed moving forward.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So, I think there's a lot of room to be
Speaker 2: done there, and there's a lot of work that that
Speaker 2: I think really needs to be tackled. But the suggestion
Speaker 2: is a great one, you know, but you know, you
Speaker 2: can go beyond organizations and think about in some ways,
Speaker 2: you know, climate decisions and decisions about resource allocation. These
Speaker 2: are decisions that also impact sort of current society and
Speaker 2: future society, right, And those are really tricky problems because
Speaker 2: there's a lot of there's a lot of current day
Speaker 2: problems that make sense to try to solve, but if
Speaker 2: I ignore the future ones, they just get worse too.
Speaker 2: So it's figuring out what's that, what's the how do
Speaker 2: you balance that out, and what's the allocation there?
Speaker 1: Well, it's the million dollar question for those who are environmentalists,
Speaker 1: who have been trying to explain to people why it
Speaker 1: matters to think about the environment a thousand years from now,
Speaker 1: and it's very hard for people to think in those terms.
Speaker 1: Their effective altruists are trying to solve this problem too,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and that's I mean, that is you know,
Speaker 2: at this sort of centerpiece of that movement and long termism,
Speaker 2: And it's really it can be controversial because all I
Speaker 2: have to do is I don't have to look very
Speaker 2: far to see all of the problems right now and
Speaker 2: then say do something now to affect people in seven generations?
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, And I think.
Speaker 1: That like a point that sometimes that people make, the
Speaker 1: critics of that make that they have they have a
Speaker 1: point is there's so much uncertainty between now and then,
Speaker 1: you know, so many things could change, can change the models,
Speaker 1: you know, And so I think this is my last question,
Speaker 1: you know, isn't it really difficult to do things for
Speaker 1: a future selves when we're faced with so much existential
Speaker 1: angst and uncertainty?
Speaker 2: It is so difficult. And I hear this all the
Speaker 2: time from you know, like undergrads and young people who say,
Speaker 2: like you too, I don't want to save why should
Speaker 2: I save? You know, when they're looking at all these things,
Speaker 2: And it's true, I don't. I don't blame them at all,
Speaker 2: you know, I've been thinking a lot about this, and
Speaker 2: when I was wrapping up the book, I was I
Speaker 2: was really sort of worried about this. I reached out
Speaker 2: to this guy, Xander Rose, who's one of the directors
Speaker 2: of the Long Now Foundation. It's one of these like
Speaker 2: long termism foundations and cool name. It's a great name, and.
Speaker 1: Well, I think Xander Rose is a cool name.
Speaker 2: That's also a cool name. It's all cool, you know.
Speaker 2: One of the things that he pointed out to me,
Speaker 2: which I hadn't fully appreciated, is like, it's not the
Speaker 2: first moment in history where people are faced with existential angs.
Speaker 2: You know, you think about the Cuban missile crisis, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And just because we're experiencing that existential angst doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that times progression will somehow stop, right. We can't stop
Speaker 2: the future from coming just because we're worried about it, right,
Speaker 2: And so it may make sense to transfer some of
Speaker 2: our attention and resources and allocutions to now rather than later,
Speaker 2: because the future feels so uncertain on the one hand.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, you can easily see how not
Speaker 2: paying attention to the future will only cause some present
Speaker 2: day problems to almost mushroom out of control as the
Speaker 2: future comes. And so I think, I feel like this
Speaker 2: is a really difficult problem. And one of the things
Speaker 2: I talk about in the book is, you know, to
Speaker 2: sort of celebrate the present in a way, to like
Speaker 2: to live for today, because you know, ultimately the things
Speaker 2: we do today are those are the experiences that our
Speaker 2: future selves will look back on. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: you consider what things you want to do and what
Speaker 2: things you don't want to do. That the problem I
Speaker 2: have is when you sort of only live for today,
Speaker 2: you only wait today's experiences, and you just constantly say
Speaker 2: that and then and then I think you end up
Speaker 2: in trouble later on. Right, And so, at the risk
Speaker 2: of sounding to Southern California about this, there's you know,
Speaker 2: an intentionality that I think is nice here.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So if I'm a little more intentional about how I'm
Speaker 2: deploying my time and attention and money and experiences, I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe that ends up being better for me
Speaker 2: now and for me later, But it requires some work.
Speaker 2: It's not the type of thing that I think is
Speaker 2: just you know, the snap of a finger as we're
Speaker 2: all set.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure there's a proposition you can vote for
Speaker 1: in the next ballot for that one.
Speaker 2: That is very California, I know, I trust me.
Speaker 1: There's four hundred and ninety seven thousand propositions. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's one intentionality about your future self should be a
Speaker 1: proposition on the That was an inside California joke. That's
Speaker 1: an inside California joke, but I knew you'd get it.
Speaker 1: I just want to end with kind of an what
Speaker 1: I'm what comes up for me? Can I tell you
Speaker 1: what's coming up for me? Yeah? Keep. I think people
Speaker 1: are sometimes too obsessively focused on trying to reach their
Speaker 1: goals and reach their future self that neglect thinking about
Speaker 1: the impact of our actions on the future selves of
Speaker 1: others and the future selves. So not just my own
Speaker 1: of like or even just group futures, but literally, like
Speaker 1: not every future self has to be you, that that
Speaker 1: you're impacting in this world. And yeah, I just I
Speaker 1: wish that people would also really consider the implications and
Speaker 1: consequences of their actions today for the collective good, the
Speaker 1: collective self future self. If that's a concept that makes sense.
Speaker 2: It makes so much sense to me. You know, so
Speaker 2: much of the so much of the work I've done
Speaker 2: is on these sort of you know individual selves. You
Speaker 2: know who I am now, who I'll be in ten years,
Speaker 2: which is important for sure, of course it is, but
Speaker 2: it's it would be it would be almost divorce from
Speaker 2: reality if my future self was just this, you know,
Speaker 2: monol at, this solo entity. Right. It's like I'm hoping
Speaker 2: that I will have family and friends and colleagues and
Speaker 2: like all of and then and then beyond and beyond
Speaker 2: like like you said, that sort of collective. All of
Speaker 2: that plays into my conception of self, that plays into
Speaker 2: the groups I want to be part of. And so
Speaker 2: I love what you said that these decisions I'm making
Speaker 2: now will impact me later, but also not just me,
Speaker 2: but others and others who I might care about and love,
Speaker 2: maybe even more that my own future self.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it can also help us face mortality as well,
Speaker 1: knowing that there are selves that live on beyond our
Speaker 1: own selves.
Speaker 2: I think it's a beautiful sentiment. It's something I've really
Speaker 2: been It's something that I've found really comforting in the
Speaker 2: in the philosophical literature. Normally philosophical literature is not to
Speaker 2: get through. But you know, if you sort of step
Speaker 2: back and say that this self isn't isn't necessarily like
Speaker 2: the meat on my bones, and it's not you know,
Speaker 2: the my face and my name, but sort of like
Speaker 2: what I stand for and the values that I have.
Speaker 2: I do think it can help confront mortality because it
Speaker 2: allows us to see how those those aspects of ourselves
Speaker 2: can be continuous between our own selves over time, but
Speaker 2: also in the selves of others. You know, one of
Speaker 2: my friends from my first my first academic job was
Speaker 2: at NYU, and one of my colleagues there and really
Speaker 2: good friends, Tom Mavis, unfortunately got diagnosed with with summa
Speaker 2: cancer about two years ago, and I had corresponded with
Speaker 2: him a little bit during this time. It was unfortunately
Speaker 2: very fast, and he actually started reading some of the
Speaker 2: Philosophy and he said that some of these older ideas
Speaker 2: from Derek Parfit the philosopher actually really comforted him knowing
Speaker 2: that part of him is going to live on and
Speaker 2: his wife and his son. And I found that didn't
Speaker 2: make it any easier for those around him, I think,
Speaker 2: but I think it probably helped him during that time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, I want to detend on that sentiment.
Speaker 1: You know, that's your work has far reaching implications, and
Speaker 1: I really wish you all the best and your book tour.
Speaker 1: You're probably still maybe have not even started it yet's
Speaker 1: just starting to check off, could go. That's all the best.
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for you coming on my podcast today.
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much for having me, Scott. This
Speaker 2: is such a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 1: Sure was, and I'm sure our listeners will think so too.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
Speaker 1: at thus Psychology podcast dot com or on our YouTube
Speaker 1: page The Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos
Speaker 1: of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so
Speaker 1: you'll want to check that out. Thanks for being such
Speaker 1: a great supporter of the show, and tune in next
Speaker 1: time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.
Speaker 2: Mmmm.