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Speaker 1: This summer, serve up the cookout classics Oscar Meyer hot

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Speaker 1: Dogs and Heinz Mustard. Grill up a dog, add classic

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Speaker 1: yellow mustard or loaded Chicago style. We all know it's

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Speaker 1: not a cookout without oscar Meyer and Hines.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult to keep the line between the past

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Speaker 2: and the press.

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Speaker 3: You believe that someone out of the past can enter

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Speaker 3: and take possession of a living being. We may be

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Speaker 3: through with the past, but the past is not through

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Speaker 3: with us. Welcome back to the next Picture Show a

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Speaker 3: Movie the Week podcast to put it to a classic

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Speaker 3: film and the way it shaped our thoughts on a

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Speaker 3: recent release. I'm Scott Tobias here again with Key.

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Speaker 4: Peppschennaviefkoski and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 3: In our last episode, we discussed Alfonso Quoron's rambunctious road

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Speaker 3: movie Eatu Mama Tambien. Now this week we are quartet

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Speaker 3: discussing another three way with Luca Guadadino's Manaja tennis drama Challengers.

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Speaker 3: Challengers opens in the modest backdrop of a minor tennis

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Speaker 3: tournament in New Rochelle, New York, which acts mostly as

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Speaker 3: a qualifier to the qualifier to the US Open. The

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Speaker 3: two finalists are Patrick Zwig played by Josh O'Connor, a

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Speaker 3: don on his luck pro trying to claw his way

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Speaker 3: back up the professional ranks, and Art Donaldson played by

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Speaker 3: Mike Feist, a fading champion looking to build up his

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Speaker 3: confidence before the open. Sitting courtside is Tashi Duncan played

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Speaker 3: by Zendeia, a former tennis prodigy who's turn to coaching

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Speaker 3: after suffering a career ending knee injury in college. Tashi

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Speaker 3: is Art's coach and wife. Tashi is also Patrick's former lover.

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Speaker 3: Art and Patrick were once best friends but now estranged.

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Speaker 3: Jumping around in Time Challengers digs into the complicated entanglements

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Speaker 3: between all three of these characters and how they raise

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Speaker 3: the stakes on the court and in the bedroom. We'll

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Speaker 3: talk about it after the break.

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Speaker 5: Do you think that tennis is about expressing yourself doing

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Speaker 5: your thing?

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Speaker 3: You don't know what tennis is? What is it?

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Speaker 2: Tah, She dunk and she's in another league.

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Speaker 4: You're incredible today, you have a fashion line foundation.

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna turn a whole family into a millionaire.

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Speaker 3: What are you gonna do now?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, my only spill life is hitting.

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Speaker 6: A ball with the record I want you to be

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Speaker 6: my coach. I want you to be my coach.

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Speaker 2: How does this happen going after the same girl?

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Speaker 4: Which one of us?

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Speaker 3: All right, so Challenger is pretty fresh on the minds.

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Speaker 3: I guess of three of us who saw it last night.

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Speaker 3: Tasha's saw it a bit of a bit ago. But

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Speaker 3: I I'm just wondering, you know what, I actually know

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Speaker 3: what Keith thinks. I think I know what Tasha thinks.

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Speaker 3: I want to know what Jenevie thinks of this movie.

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Speaker 3: So let's start with you, Geneviev.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think I am in like with this movie,

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Speaker 4: but not quite in love with it. It was such

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Speaker 4: like an almost movie for me, Like this was almost sexy.

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Speaker 4: It was almost like, I mean, it is I guess

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Speaker 4: formally ambitious, but I think like it. It didn't really

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Speaker 4: like work until the final moments for me, or maybe

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Speaker 4: not even work, but it didn't really like hit until

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Speaker 4: the final moments for me. The structure like I get it,

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Speaker 4: like I get the volleying through time. It's tennis, very clever,

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Speaker 4: but it just I kind of found it more aggravating

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Speaker 4: than rewarding as the movie went on. But you know,

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Speaker 4: I like all three of these performances, you know, there's

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Speaker 4: decent chemistry between them. The story is interesting, Like I

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Speaker 4: don't dislike this movie, but it was like, I feel

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Speaker 4: like we've been hearing about this movie for over a

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Speaker 4: year now because they got pushed. Was it pandemic or

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Speaker 4: strikes that delayed it?

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Speaker 3: Strikes strikes because the actors couldn't couldn't appear at.

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Speaker 4: Rest to promote, right of course, and you don't have

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Speaker 4: a movie with Zendea without being able to promote and

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Speaker 4: being able to promote it. So I feel like we've

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Speaker 4: just been hearing about like Zindeia sexy tennis movie for

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Speaker 4: so long and then it's just like, it wasn't that sexy.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, what did you guys think?

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Speaker 5: I left it a lot, actually, and I think it

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Speaker 5: was you know, it was those that final scene what

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Speaker 5: it kind of all brought it all together to me.

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Speaker 6: But but uh, you know, I was really gripped by this.

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Speaker 5: This is stylish, and uh I found myself, you know,

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Speaker 5: you know, kind of curious as to as to you know,

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Speaker 5: we saw the beginning and the end of the story

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Speaker 5: as but I thought it did have you know, made

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Speaker 5: the middle Philly in the blanks in the middle, really

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Speaker 5: compelling and you know, the you know wind machine, some

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Speaker 5: really first class win in this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I lived in Atlanta. I don't remember any days

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Speaker 3: like that. That was crazy.

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Speaker 6: Well that was those places in New Rochelle though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh the wind is yeah, okay, so New chell

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Speaker 3: Let's new r shll Weather.

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Speaker 5: I guess, yeah, I can't. I haven't been there. I

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Speaker 5: just assume it is that that Wendy all the time. No,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, I it's in terms of

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Speaker 5: like how sexy it is, like, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 5: weird because you know, these are people who played high

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Speaker 5: schoolers recently. So yeah, it's a little a little disconnect

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Speaker 5: there in terms of that. But but I uh, but

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Speaker 5: I think it's it's it's it's pretty saxy. There's lots

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Speaker 5: there's lots of uh, you know, smoldering Claire, Claire, smoldering Clare.

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Speaker 5: It's actually probably accurate for the way these characters interact

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Speaker 5: with one another. Uh, you know, I like to kind

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Speaker 5: of bet Tasha, you liked it too, I believe if

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Speaker 5: I if I understand your review correctly, I loved it.

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Speaker 2: I am struggling to remember a previous time like Genevy

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Speaker 2: and I don't always align, but usually if it's a

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Speaker 2: like a romance movie, she she will like it more

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Speaker 2: than I do. You know, There's there's certainly been movies,

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Speaker 2: other movies that I've liked more than she has have

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Speaker 2: been like you know, horror, fantasy adjacent. But in terms

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Speaker 2: of like a mainstream romantic drama, I'm really hard pressed

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Speaker 2: to think of a case where this has happened.

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Speaker 4: I don't see a lot of romance in this relationship

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Speaker 4: at all. Yeah, I think it's a it's a sports movie.

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Speaker 4: I think it's a very interesting sports movie, and I

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Speaker 4: think it's you know, especially if you're like perceiving it

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Speaker 4: from Zendaia's character's perspective. But like, I don't like think

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Speaker 4: either of the And maybe that's why I didn't find

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Speaker 4: it to be that sexy, is because I don't think

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Speaker 4: either of the relationships of the triad are like passionate.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess the one between Patrick and Tashi is,

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Speaker 4: but it's so based in like dislike for so much

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Speaker 4: of the movie.

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Speaker 6: Romance doesn't quite fit either.

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Speaker 5: But I think it's almost kind of like a study

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Speaker 5: of human behavior, and the end of this relationship that

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Speaker 5: keeps falling out of balance.

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Speaker 4: And relationship drama.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I was.

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Speaker 2: Going to say a relationship drama rather than romance, see

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Speaker 2: because certainly it's not swoony, it's not romantic. I guess,

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Speaker 2: you know, to be very reflexive about the term, but

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Speaker 2: that is kind of the best word for it. That said,

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Speaker 2: the structure really worked for me. I was kind of

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Speaker 2: dubious when we kind of like lay out a lot

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Speaker 2: of sort of what these relationships are and then jump

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Speaker 2: back in time, and you know, I'm kind of thinking, well, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we already know that they were friends and they met her, Like,

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Speaker 2: what is there to learn by jumping back in time?

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Speaker 2: And then we see exactly what there is to learn

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Speaker 2: in terms of nuances that we wouldn't have picked up on.

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Speaker 2: And you know, then we go back to her injury

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Speaker 2: and it's like, well, okay, we've already been told that

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Speaker 2: she had this traumatic knee injury and she wasn't able

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Speaker 2: to play anymore. What's this going to add? And then

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Speaker 2: you find out what this is going to add, like

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Speaker 2: over and over and over. The movie surprised me in

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Speaker 2: terms of adding interesting layers into these relationships and their

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Speaker 2: history and the tensions between and making the dynamics that

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Speaker 2: we were seeing more complicated when you see Tashi and

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Speaker 2: Art's relationship in the present and it just seems so,

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Speaker 2: you know, cold and unpleasant and distanced and like she's

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Speaker 2: using him as a professional stepping stone. And then you

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Speaker 2: kind of see how that relationship came about, where it

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Speaker 2: came from, why she's dissatisfied. I kind of love the

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Speaker 2: discovery process in this movie, and then the sports. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a sports movie person, but there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of very very silly visual stuff that goes on here

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Speaker 2: in terms of making tennis visually exciting instead of you know,

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Speaker 2: just kind of like a back and forth that you

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Speaker 2: have to see from a distance if you're going to

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Speaker 2: take everything in. I really liked the visual approach in

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Speaker 2: this film a lot.

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Speaker 4: I like this as a tennis movie maybe more than

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Speaker 4: anything else. Yeah, but before we establish too much of

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Speaker 4: a divide between me and Tasha, before I am too

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Speaker 4: like far into the dislike column. Like again, I liked

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Speaker 4: this movie pretty well. I just didn't like fall in

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Speaker 4: love with it. But as far as like the structure

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Speaker 4: of it and sort of that discovery process you're talking

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Speaker 4: about Tasha, Like, I agree up to a point, and

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Speaker 4: I think that point is like the last third of

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Speaker 4: the movie where we're hopping back like two days before,

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Speaker 4: then a few hours before, and like the jumping just

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Speaker 4: keeps getting more and more frantic. Again, like I get

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Speaker 4: like what it's doing as far as like mimicking like

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Speaker 4: the tension, the escalating tension, or a pace of a

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Speaker 4: tennis match, and specifically the tennis match here, but again,

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Speaker 4: I just like found it aggravating as it or more

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Speaker 4: aggravating as it got to the end.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I loved it. But I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that this is a terribly

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Speaker 2: sexy movie. I also don't think it needs to be.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that that going into this movie and saying, well,

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Speaker 2: I expected it to be like a hot movie about

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Speaker 2: NonStop threesomes and it wasn't that. It's kind of like

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Speaker 2: saying I expected out Scarland's Civil War movie to be

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Speaker 2: just a dia Jesus about how much Trump sucks and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that. So I'm mad, Like it's it's kind

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Speaker 2: of the same, the same thing. So I'm not big

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Speaker 2: mad about what this movie isn't. I just I found

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Speaker 2: myself really engaged with what it is actually doing, you know,

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Speaker 2: visually and narratively and structurally and in terms of the acting.

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Speaker 2: These are all performers I like quite a lot. And

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Speaker 2: also musically, the score, the Trent Reznor Atticus Roth's score

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Speaker 2: is kind of nuts. And I may have heart arrhythmia

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Speaker 2: now after watching this movie, but I enjoyed it. It's

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Speaker 2: good heart arrhythmia.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm a little bit closer to Genevieve on

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Speaker 3: on this one. It just it's just over cranked for me.

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Speaker 3: Like guadd you knows is settled down a little bit here.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's, you know, I like. I do like

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Speaker 3: the structure of the film quite a bit. That works

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Speaker 3: for me. That though I don't think it needs all

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Speaker 3: of the markers that it has. I don't know, you

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Speaker 3: know why we need all the titles to tell us

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Speaker 3: where we are in time? Like I think we can

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Speaker 3: figure out where we are in time. They do all

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Speaker 3: this other this other stuff speak to let us know, like,

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Speaker 3: just just do it very well to hold their hands,

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Speaker 3: hold hold my hand.

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Speaker 6: I need it.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and I'm just saying I think I do

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Speaker 3: think the end of the film is just ridiculous, you know,

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Speaker 3: I know, the terrible, terrible.

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Speaker 4: Final like I thought, I thought that was going to

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Speaker 4: be Scott Catnap.

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Speaker 3: I had like the tennis scene, like the ball cam

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Speaker 3: and the I like that part. I'm just talking about

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Speaker 3: the very end. I'm just like, come on, okay.

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Speaker 6: I don't love the ball camp, but I love the

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Speaker 6: very end.

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Speaker 2: So like I don't love the very end in terms

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Speaker 2: of the tennis because like the physics of it are silly,

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Speaker 2: but in terms of the emotions, in terms of.

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Speaker 6: I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I liked it.

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Speaker 5: In a way, it's like, you know, I realized, like

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Speaker 5: to at the end, like this is not this film

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Speaker 5: doesn't want us to root for either of these But.

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Speaker 6: How does how does it resolve it?

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Speaker 5: I mean, how do you resolve this tension in a

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Speaker 5: way that makes any sense whatsoever? And I think I

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Speaker 5: found a solution and I felt it was audacious and

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Speaker 5: I was, yeah, I was really into the final shot

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Speaker 5: of this movie.

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Speaker 6: At the final a few moments of this movie.

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Speaker 4: I think that it also sets it up really well

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Speaker 4: with a much earlier scene when they're when they're teenagers,

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Speaker 4: when Tashi is talking about like tennis as a relationship,

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Speaker 4: and she's talking about the match to the that she

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Speaker 4: had and she's like, like, for I forget the exact

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Speaker 4: freezing something. No, it was like it was just like

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Speaker 4: fifteen seconds or something, you know. But and so like

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Speaker 4: that combined with the joke she keeps making about being

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Speaker 4: like a home wrecker, the two of them, it's like

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Speaker 4: this this whole like final you know, back and forth

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Speaker 4: and where it resolves. It's just it's all about their relationship,

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Speaker 4: like amending and in a way, you know, or like

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Speaker 4: them having that relationship moment and her screaming in victory

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Speaker 4: in triumph, you know that. I guess like she sees

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Speaker 4: it as a win. I guess like bringing them back together.

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Speaker 2: She I think she absolutely sees it as a win.

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Speaker 2: And I had a bad moment towards the end where

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Speaker 2: the tennis was getting more and more intense, and I

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Speaker 2: kind of thought, oh, Okay, this entire movie has been

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Speaker 2: about Tashi and how she exerts control over the sport,

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Speaker 2: over these two men, over her relationships, over her life.

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Speaker 2: This entire movie has been about her. And then in

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Speaker 2: the last minute, we're gonna abandon that and it's just

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Speaker 2: going to be about these two boys and how they

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Speaker 2: don't need her. And then I saw her reaction to

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Speaker 2: where the story ends, and I realized I had been

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Speaker 2: completely wrong, and it really is about her and what

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Speaker 2: she ends in engineers and about control. And I felt

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Speaker 2: this huge, fist pumping sense of victory at how the

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Speaker 2: movie leads you away from that and then slams you

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Speaker 2: back into it at the end.

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Speaker 3: That word is the one I was thinking of engineers.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that is so much as such a trait

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Speaker 3: of hers. Oh that's so that's so tashi to engineer everything.

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Speaker 3: But like you know, from the jump, I mean from

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Speaker 3: the moment that she meets them, from the scene in

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Speaker 3: the hotel, you know, and then just the way Fate

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Speaker 3: kind of plays this role of taking this thing that

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Speaker 3: she's incredible at away from her, and how her response

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Speaker 3: to that ends up causing all kinds of chaos to

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Speaker 3: everybody's relationships in the movie, and she does actually become

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Speaker 3: sort of a home rerecord whereas it relates to these

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Speaker 3: two guys, and then also and who they want to

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Speaker 3: be and what their relationship is together. It all just

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Speaker 3: kind of falls apart before she can kind of put

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Speaker 3: it back together. And her character is kind of the

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Speaker 3: most enigmatic, compelling piece of this movie, and it's kind

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Speaker 3: of what really ties the film together for me, more

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Speaker 3: than the Gentleman and more and more certainly more than

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Speaker 3: the style, which, like I said, I think is a

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Speaker 3: little over cranked. But I do find myself thinking quite

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Speaker 3: a bit about her and her motivations and what interests her,

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Speaker 3: you know, her kind of what gives her pleasure, you know,

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Speaker 3: which is a little odd in a way. She's kind

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Speaker 3: of strange. It's a strange a tennis kink thing going,

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Speaker 3: and sort of a power. This interest of hers to

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Speaker 3: kind of exert power as being kind of a primary driver.

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Speaker 3: All of that stuff is kind of fascinating, and it

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Speaker 3: makes for a movie that is sexy in its way,

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Speaker 3: but a little kind of diabolical and dark too as

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Speaker 3: at its heart.

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Speaker 2: I think just seeing how cold she is to Art

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Speaker 2: at the beginning, you just you sort of get a

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Speaker 2: sense of somebody who's not happy with her life, and

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Speaker 2: is not happy with her relationship, and is not happy

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Speaker 2: with her career. Like all of these things have come

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Speaker 2: together because she's she's blended them all into one big thing,

305
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Speaker 2: and she just seems like maybe a very unpleasant person

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Speaker 2: to work for or with or be married to. And

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Speaker 2: the way the movie unpacks that and makes you understand

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Speaker 2: who she used to be, how she got here, and

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Speaker 2: just like how all encompassing that disappointment would be, you know,

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Speaker 2: to feel like you've got your whole career mapped out

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Speaker 2: for you and then see it come apart in that way. Like,

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Speaker 2: I just thought she was a very real and convincing character,

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Speaker 2: but also one that I didn't necessarily feel like i'd seen,

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Speaker 2: at least in this form, maybe that I'd never seen

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Speaker 2: a woman play before. I am thinking of movies like

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Speaker 2: Crazy Heart, and how often I've seen stories about men

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Speaker 2: whose lives have come apart and have disintegrated, and they've

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Speaker 2: kind of like come into like very weary, tired places

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Speaker 2: or very like angry, bitter places in the case of

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Speaker 2: you know, your your mad Max roaring rampage of revenge

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Speaker 2: type things where you know, a man loses everything and

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Speaker 2: then just has to like kill everybody in sight out

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Speaker 2: of anger. But I, like, I rarely see this kind

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Speaker 2: of movie starring a woman who believed that she had

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Speaker 2: everything and then lost it, and then we have to

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Speaker 2: see like how she navigates it, and I just I

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Speaker 2: really liked how this particular movie addresses that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: It's really Zindaa's movie in so many ways, And I

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Speaker 4: think what Tasha you're saying about the character and like

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Speaker 4: how that story is not one that we typically see

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Speaker 4: like given to a female character, Like I agree, and

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Speaker 4: that is definitely like an asset of this movie. But

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Speaker 4: also like I want to talk about the two guys

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Speaker 4: because the like those performances too, especially Josh O'Connor. Like

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Speaker 4: I don't know if any of you watched The Crown,

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Speaker 4: but like that was like my first exposure to him,

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Speaker 4: but Charles, yeah, yeah, but like this was a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a revelation for me Josh O'Connor, uh maybe

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Speaker 4: because that was my only previous exposure to him, but

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Speaker 4: like he just came in with such like swagger but

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Speaker 4: also like clearly compensed for something. And I just really

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Speaker 4: I really liked that performance, maybe as much as as Zendeas.

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Speaker 4: Like I think Sendeas of ultimately the more interesting character,

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Speaker 4: and she certainly like rises to the occasion on a

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Speaker 4: performance level, but I think like just on a peer

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Speaker 4: like kind of an on screen charisma level, Like I

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Speaker 4: was really drawn to Josh O'Connor in this. In this one,

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Speaker 4: am I alone there?

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Speaker 5: No, I think I watched The Crown, but I just

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Speaker 5: did watch La Kimara, which is right, right, of course.

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen yet, but I've heard great things about it.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a very different performance. It's so I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think I think it's Scott Sey's That performance is

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Speaker 5: the weak part of the movie. I don't necessarily agree,

355
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Speaker 5: but it is. It is a very quiet, internalized, passive

356
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Speaker 5: at times performance. And this is not that character. It's

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Speaker 5: not that character at all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love his performance of this. I actually like

359
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Speaker 3: all three. But I think part of it is that

360
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Speaker 3: he has a really I think he has the richer

361
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Speaker 3: of the two characters to play in terms of the men,

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Speaker 3: just because I think the film. One of the things

363
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Speaker 3: I really admire about the film is the specificity of

364
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Speaker 3: his lemma of being this guy who of being one

365
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Speaker 3: of those guys who's aging out of the circuit. He's

366
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Speaker 3: trying to hold on. He's scraping together whatever money he

367
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Speaker 3: can he can do to do to continue doing this

368
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Speaker 3: one thing that he can do well, but not well

369
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Speaker 3: enough to even you know, pay for a crappy hotel

370
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Speaker 3: room at one point, which then leads to this, you know,

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Speaker 3: one of my favorite seeds of the movie, which is

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Speaker 3: what he goes on a goes on a date that

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Speaker 3: that becomes his way of finding a.

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Speaker 4: Bench better ways to handle that my guy, Like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, you gotta get he's tired of

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Speaker 3: sleeping in his car and he's got enough. He's got enough.

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Speaker 4: Also, like, this is something I wish we had gotten

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Speaker 4: like a little more of an answer to, even though,

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Speaker 4: like I respect a movie not necessarily telling you everything,

380
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Speaker 4: but like we do, we do get insignacious that he

381
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Speaker 4: comes from money, like he doesn't necessarily have to be

382
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Speaker 4: living like this, and I feel like the question of

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Speaker 4: why he is living like this isn't necesscessarily answered unless

384
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Speaker 4: I missed something. But it's just sort of another element

385
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Speaker 4: of that character that I found compelling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that it's spelled out, but I

387
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Speaker 2: would very much just given everything else we see about

388
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Speaker 2: that character, take it to be ego, you know, pride.

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Speaker 2: I found it very interesting that he can't afford breakfast

390
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Speaker 2: to the point where he's kind of drooling on an

391
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Speaker 2: officiant's you know, a duncan donuts breakfast, but he has

392
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Speaker 2: all of these expensive rackets with him, one of which

393
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Speaker 2: he smashes in anger. You know, that is not the

394
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Speaker 2: action of somebody who's disciplined and in full control of himself.

395
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Speaker 2: But it's also maybe not the action of somebody who

396
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Speaker 2: takes property super super seriously and is like fully aware

397
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Speaker 2: of the cost of destroying the tool of his trade

398
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Speaker 2: that he cannot afford to replace. I mean, I agree

399
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Speaker 2: that he's the more nuanced to the two characters I got.

400
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 2: I love the whole sequence where he shows up for

401
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: the Challengers match and he has nowhere to sleep and

402
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,719
Speaker 2: he has to navigate that just kind of on charm

403
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 2: and desperation just whichever works. He just kind of keeps

404
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 2: throwing different things at people. You get the sense of

405
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 2: somebody who's like coasted on his looks and his tennis

406
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: skills for maybe his entire life, and has come to

407
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Speaker 2: the place where all of those things are maybe running thin.

408
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 2: I think he's an amazing character, but I'm also I've

409
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Speaker 2: just got like a huge career crush on Mike Feist.

410
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Speaker 2: I just want him to do ever since a West

411
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Speaker 2: Side story where he just seemed like the only person

412
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Speaker 2: in the entire cast that could actually pass for the

413
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,919
Speaker 2: teenager that all of his characters are supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: His ferocity in that role was just really compelling, And

415
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Speaker 2: I just I want him to have a huge career.

416
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Speaker 2: I want to see him in a lot more things.

417
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Speaker 2: So seeing him get so much room to stretch here

418
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Speaker 2: it was really interesting. And seeing how these two actors

419
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Speaker 2: both play the same characters at many different ages and

420
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Speaker 2: how convincingly they slide between them, I think was just

421
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 2: a real delight.

422
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Speaker 5: Yeah, one thing I liked also is about how these

423
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Speaker 5: guys kind of start out as the same guy. You know,

424
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Speaker 5: they're they're not a whole lot of this image of

425
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Speaker 5: their personalities in the the furthest back flashback and it's

426
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Speaker 5: you know, life kind of it's kind of like they're

427
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Speaker 5: not identical twins, but it's almost kind of like you

428
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Speaker 5: identical twins raising her different circumstances. See how they turn out.

429
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Speaker 3: I mean, the degree to which Tashi completely upends both

430
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Speaker 3: of their lives is kind of stunning, is it? And

431
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Speaker 3: I mean like that's the that's the difference maker that

432
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Speaker 3: she's she is the person who kind of is the

433
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Speaker 3: catalyst for everything that happens in the movie between them,

434
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: and then also you know, in terms of their individual trajectories,

435
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 3: it's just wouldn't be. It's kind of not the same

436
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 3: without her influence, and it's and if you know, it

437
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,479
Speaker 3: benefests itself in a lot in some fascinating ways. I mean,

438
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 3: what one, uh, I really do like this idea of

439
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 3: Art as being somebody who's just done, who's ready to

440
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: retire and can't because so much of his career is

441
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 3: being managed by Tashi and it's something that she can't

442
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 3: really give up so easily. And it leads to that

443
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: kind of heartbreaking moment where he's like, what if I lose?

444
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: He's gonna be all right? If what if I quit?

445
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: What's gonna happen? You know? And you know, she doesn't

446
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: answer that question in a reassuring way at all. You know,

447
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: it's just kind of like, I'm gonna give you this look,

448
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: you know, because this is not this is not what

449
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 3: I want. Tough place to be for that dude.

450
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: Just the narrative tension between Art as a huge success

451
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: story that desperately wants out of Tennis and Patrick as

452
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: a kind of like stringer around the edges who desperately

453
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: wants in that could have sustained a movie entirely on

454
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 2: its own, Like, there are a lot of complex threads

455
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: and push and pull needs and relationships in this movie,

456
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: but that alone is just such a good idea and

457
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: such a compelling structure, And then of course putting the

458
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: two of them up against each other, and then just

459
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 2: spending most of the movie showing you all of the

460
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: different levels of the stakes in what they're playing for,

461
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, from we're just playing to see who wins

462
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: a game as to competitive people, to we're relitigating our

463
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: entire relationship, you know, at ten plus years of our

464
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: relationship and everything that's gone under the bridge during that time.

465
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, I just I think the screenplay for

466
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: this movie is pretty marvelously thought through in a lot

467
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: of ways.

468
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually think it's a little it kind of

469
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: lacks wit. I think it almost just again, this is

470
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: one of those pairings where the one film kind of

471
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: exposes the thinness and flaws of the other film. It's just,

472
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 3: you know, it just felt like in every way this

473
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: one kind of fell short in terms of its pop

474
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: for me, in the in terms of its sexiness and

475
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: vibrancy and dialogue and that sort of thing to kind

476
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 3: of well, I guess we're not really can we move

477
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: into connections. That's something you should at this point.

478
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: I think we should because there's so many things to

479
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: talk about with both of these movies.

480
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and make that break here and come

481
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: right back with connections.

482
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: I should go.

483
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 4: My dad comes looking through me, I'll see.

484
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: What school are?

485
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 6: Wait, are you on Facebook?

486
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: What?

487
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 3: He's ask you for your number?

488
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 6: And so am I?

489
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: You both want my number very much?

490
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, okay, Well I'm not a home record.

491
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: We don't live together.

492
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 6: It's an open relationship.

493
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: So Patrick has a girlfriend. I do not. Hey, come

494
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: hang out with us later.

495
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 6: They put you up at the hotel and Flushing right.

496
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: We're till six when they come tuck you in.

497
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 6: No, let me just keep talking about tennis.

498
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: Now it's time for connections, when we bring these two

499
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: films together and talk about all the things they have

500
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: in common. I have a feeling that the makers of

501
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: Alengers may have given Aluxi to Etu momentan bien at

502
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: some point. I mean, you have have some pretty similar

503
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 3: dynamics here, including including really the start with this fantasy

504
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: of these two guys and they're gonna get they're gonna

505
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: get this girl over and that they you know, and

506
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: something's gonna happen. It's gonna be really exciting, but like

507
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: they're not really prepared for what's that for what that

508
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: actually entails, and what that's gonna what kind of like

509
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: bomb that's going to drop in their life. And also

510
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: between their friendships they have kind of you know that

511
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 3: these are two movies about two dudes are really really

512
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: close friends who have this kind of bro code and

513
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: who and everything kind of get shattered and sort of

514
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: thrown out the window, right, Tasha.

515
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things I threw on the

516
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: list of connections was the bro code and bro friendships

517
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: and in this case that it just there are so

518
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: many different aspects to it. But kind of what I

519
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: meant there was the fact that both of these movies feature,

520
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: you know, two pretty young men who've known each other

521
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 2: for a very long time and are very comfortable with

522
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: each other, very comfortable, like you know, bragging about their

523
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: conquests and sharing their love lives, and then they both

524
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: kind of want to chase the same girl, and neither

525
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 2: one of them entirely wants to shove the other out

526
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: of the way, but they both really want to shove

527
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 2: the other out of the way, and the kind of

528
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: you know, bro code idea of like you don't date

529
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: somebody else's ex or you don't chase the girl that

530
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 2: your bro is going after, really gets a workout in

531
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: both of these films without ever really being expressed verbally.

532
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: You know, there's there's kind of no point in either

533
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: of these movies where one of the guys says, like

534
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: the classic I saw her first, or she likes me better,

535
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: or you have to stand down, dude, I want this

536
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: more or whatever. There's just this sort of sense of

537
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: we both know that we're both competing for the same

538
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: person's attentions and affections, and we both hope that we're

539
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 2: the one that wins, but it's kind of hard to

540
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 2: verbalize because we know we're threatening our relationship with each other.

541
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: So instead, there's a lot of sulking in both cases

542
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: and some literal dick measuring in both cases. Both of

543
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: these sets of male friends try to figure out how

544
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: to compete with each other without destroying their friendship, and

545
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: then kind of destroy their friendship over a girl that

546
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: they neither one of them can let go of, that

547
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: both of them are obsessed with, but that neither of

548
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: them quite know how to talk to the other one about.

549
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: And the way both of these movies navigate kind of

550
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: male friendship as a like deep bonding through superficial conversation

551
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: and a struggle to talk about like deeper and more

552
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: important and more personal things. I think both of them

553
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: parallel each other very closely while still having like their

554
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: own very specific like flavor and nuance in terms of

555
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: these two different friendships.

556
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like one of the things I find really interesting

557
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 4: about this pairing is like how many connections there are

558
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 4: while the narratives are so different, like the just the

559
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 4: shapes of these movies are so different, and in relation

560
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 4: to this connection in particular, like we don't spend that

561
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: much of Challengers seeing these two guys be friends, you know,

562
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 4: Like we get that kind of the first big flashback

563
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 4: with the hotel room scene and there's a couple at Stanford,

564
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 4: but you know, their friendship is a little more I

565
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 4: don't want to say background, because it is the point

566
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 4: of the movie, but we don't see as much of them,

567
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 4: you know, being friends and and kind of like living

568
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 4: in these tensions as we do an Etu Mama Tanbian,

569
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 4: which is obviously told in a linear style, so it

570
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 4: facilitates that, and you know, by virtue of being a

571
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 4: road movie, also very interesting that these are both very

572
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 4: familiar movie types. We have a road and a sports movie,

573
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: but they are not the same movie type anyway. It

574
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 4: being a road movie, like we do spend so much

575
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 4: time with them kind of in close proximity and shooting

576
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 4: the shit and all that fun dialogue that Scott loves.

577
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: There's just not that much of it in Challengers. There's,

578
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 4: like I said, that first big flashback where so much

579
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 4: table setting is done. But also I feel like at

580
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: that point, neither Art nor Patrick like are that experienced.

581
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 4: I feel like it's certainly like not at the like

582
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 4: I feel like they're they're talking about sex at a

583
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 4: much like younger, less experience level than Tinch and Julio are,

584
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: even though they are obviously very immature in their own way,

585
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: but they seem to be coming into their you know,

586
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 4: sort of their sexual banter with a little more experience

587
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: than a Pat and especially Art seem to have when

588
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 4: we first meet them.

589
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 5: When I left this movie last night of like, oh,

590
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 5: we should have done Jewels and cham because it's it's about,

591
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 5: you know, between three people that plays out over years

592
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 5: versus you know a few days and EATU Mama to

593
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 5: me on. But but you're no, absolutely right, there's so many.

594
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 5: Then I watched YouTube May end, which I had not

595
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 5: seen for was oh, okay, right, this is this is

596
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 5: the ideal movie.

597
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 6: But yeah, so much of it is that code.

598
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 5: And and I think it's interesting that it goes that is,

599
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 5: you know, obviously between the Etue Mama characters, it is

600
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 5: it is codified, like literally codified. They have memorized the rules,

601
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 5: whereas I think characters challenges seem to be kind of

602
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 5: like figuring out as they go along. And it's interesting

603
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 5: that they both kind of both approaches are semi disastrous.

604
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean you've got some like just

605
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: really direct connections too, in the sense that like both

606
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: of the relationships that these that the boys in both

607
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: films have with the women at the center are are

608
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 3: these sort of like long shot bids that pay off.

609
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: I mean they you know, Patrick and Art do not

610
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: expect Tashi to come to their hotel room, but you

611
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: know that they've scrawled down on this what piece of paper?

612
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: And uh, the boys in each moment Tom Bien certainly

613
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: don't expect this married woman to come on this, you know,

614
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: adventure to a to a made up island with him

615
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 3: either and so the so there's a little bit of

616
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: an excitement and also kind of a scramble, like they're

617
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: almost like the kind of the dogs that caught the

618
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: car in a way, it's like, what do we do now?

619
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: It's like this wasn't actually supposed to happen, This is

620
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: just something we're just kind of flirting, and like this

621
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: actually is gonna happen. But then then you have a

622
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: reversal in terms of the action of the of the movies,

623
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: and that Art and Patrick sort of engineered into this

624
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: intimacy level that takes the whole of youtub Mama time

625
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 3: Bien to arrive at, and it just changes the agenda

626
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 3: for both movies because you know, eachub Mama Tombien that

627
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: ends up kind of ending their friendship and and then

628
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: and challengers it. I think there's a bit of a

629
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: fracture around Tashi, but but it's ultimately kind of about

630
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: trying to get these two dudes back together as well,

631
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: and the kind of mend that relationship and kind of

632
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: see what can happen there kind of fascinating study in

633
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 3: contrast these two movies.

634
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm I was really eager to bring up that

635
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: specific contrast in terms of the timelines of the two

636
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 4: Broke kisses in how they affect the movie or don't

637
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: in the case of Challengers, And I think what's really

638
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: interesting about the Challengers kiss is like that it doesn't

639
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 4: really seem to affect their friendship, you know, at least

640
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 4: not in any way that I don't think it affects

641
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 4: their friendship anymore than the schism of art going to Stanford,

642
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: while Patrick like kind of follows the pro path, you know,

643
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 4: like it's not there's not this like what have we

644
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 4: done moment? In fact, there's even like a kind of

645
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 4: a laugh line at the end of it where he

646
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 4: slaps his erection as she leaves, which got a big laugh,

647
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: you know, So like there's none of that sort of

648
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: I guess a weight to it that you Tu, Mama

649
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 4: Tambien has. But yeah, I think a fascinating in verse

650
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 4: with these two movies.

651
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: The other kind of fascinating thing to me too is

652
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: the women in both of these scenarios because I think

653
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 3: Luisa wants a certain amount of sexual gratification. We wants

654
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: to get physical, wants to wants to be a part

655
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: of this engage in this this kind of advention in

656
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: some of the same ways as that the boys do.

657
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 3: And uh, that's not what Tashi's all about. Tashi is

658
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 3: a is kind of you know, sort of enjoys just

659
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 3: the kind of engineering part of it, so that that

660
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: that's it's such a strange, sort of fascinating form of

661
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: gratification that she gets because it's not really physical at all.

662
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: It's it's just this pleasure that she has in the

663
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 3: control that she's able to kind of exert over these

664
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: over this situation, over these over these men, and it's

665
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: something that ends up manifesting itself in a lot of

666
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: different ways as the film goes on and she loses,

667
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: you know, loses some of her power in one arena

668
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: and tries to apply it in other arenas.

669
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: I went looking to see if either the writer or

670
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: director here had specifically cited ETW Mama, and the screenwriter

671
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: Justin Koretzky's says it's one of his favorite films and

672
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: that he grew up watching it. I really think that

673
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: a lot of the things that happen in Challengers in

674
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: particular are active answers to kind of questions that Eatu

675
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: Mama leaves behind, And one of them is in that

676
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: makeout sequence, you know, in Eat Mama, we don't really

677
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: see where the evening goes. In Challengers we do, and

678
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: Eat Mama we're left sort of to wonder was Louisa

679
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 2: actively trying to get them together. In Challengers, we very

680
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: clearly see that that was what Tashi had in mind

681
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: all along. You know that she's she set out to

682
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: engineer the two of them to kiss, and then she

683
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 2: just kind of sits back smugly and like looks at

684
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: her own work with amusement. And there are a lot

685
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: of like little things throughout the movie that to me

686
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: are just kind of like maybe answering narratively answering questions

687
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: that Iachumama leaves open in some fairly interesting ways. At

688
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: the same time, there are just all of these parallels,

689
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: and I think one of the big ones is like,

690
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: as you say, Scott, both of these sets of boys

691
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: fall into fantasies that the kind of fantasies that the

692
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: Iqumama boys might share, you know, while masturbating on diving

693
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: boards at the pool, as we see them do, and

694
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: then they get there and they don't know what to do.

695
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: So in both cases, both of these pairs of young

696
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: men let the women drive, you know, they're they're not

697
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: pushing past what the women want. In both cases, they're

698
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: letting themselves be kind of steered and told this is acceptable,

699
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: this is what you're allowed to do. Maybe the well,

700
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, maybe the one difference being Louise

701
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: ends up not getting a whole lot of satisfaction out

702
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: of either of the two boys. But I'm not sure

703
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: how much satisfaction Tashi gets out of either of her.

704
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: Too many either thought last.

705
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 6: Night was okay for Louisa.

706
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 5: Perhaps that was you know, we don't we don't see

707
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 5: what happened, but perhaps that went better than previous well,

708
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 5: maybe because.

709
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: She knew what to expect at that point, you know,

710
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 2: maybe she she knew what she.

711
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 4: Was Also, they had a lot to drink, so presumably

712
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 4: they could maybe last a little longer than the previous interactions.

713
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 4: But I think it's sort of another kind of contrast

714
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 4: point or inversion is in the characters of Tashi and

715
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: Louisa because you know, we we we've kind of like

716
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 4: talked about Louisa's motives or or or lack thereof. But like,

717
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: after this viewing, I came away from it like thinking

718
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 4: of her as a creature of freedom. Like freedom is

719
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 4: sort of her driving motive in these last days of

720
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 4: her life that she know, you know again going back

721
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: to that damn magazine quiz, but like why have that

722
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,439
Speaker 4: if it's not consequential, you know, And so I think,

723
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 4: like her, this whole journey of hers is kind of

724
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 4: just her. It's a little bit of like a chaos

725
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 4: goblin vibe, you know, you know, like just like like

726
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 4: doing whatever she wants in the moment and not really

727
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 4: like being like constricted by expectations anymore. And these boys

728
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 4: kind of just allow her to exercise that impulse. So

729
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 4: I came from away from this movie like just like

730
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 4: kind of associating her character so much with like a

731
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: quest for freedom, a drive for freedom. And then Tashi

732
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 4: is just such a character of control. That is her

733
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: defining feature, and it's how she interacts with these boys

734
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 4: as well. So they are both like kind of manipulating

735
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 4: these boys men in similar ways, but from like kind

736
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 4: of distinct positions.

737
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 2: I guess yeah, I saw some pretty distinct positions.

738
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 4: Also, before we get too far away from what you

739
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 4: were saying, Tasha about how Challengers answers so much of YouTube,

740
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 4: Mama Tanbien. It also gives an origin story for them

741
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 4: masturbating together in our.

742
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's true. I hadn't even thought about that,

743
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 2: but that's yeah, that's a really good detail.

744
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: That connection not making we got, we got like fifteen connections.

745
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: I will say I do think that Louisa is also

746
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: a figure of control. I think that she feels she's

747
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: lost control of her life with the illness that we

748
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 2: don't ever see any sign of, and she's lost control

749
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: of her marriage with her husband experiencing like not just

750
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: a series of affairs, but a series of affairs that

751
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: he apparently calls her up and confesses too tearfully by

752
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: abusing himself and clearly like wanting forgiveness that she just

753
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: doesn't feel in a position to offer. I feel like

754
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: going on this road trip for her is a like

755
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 2: seizing control of her life. She knows that these two

756
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: boys are young and naive and kind of bullshitters and

757
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: kind of inexperienced She takes control of the narrative really

758
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: early in terms of egging them on to talk about sex,

759
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 2: to talk about their girlfriends, which you know they're more

760
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: than eager to comply with. But she really is almost

761
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: always in control. And when she abandons them temporarily in frustration,

762
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: it's because all of her the control that she's been exerting,

763
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: still isn't getting her what she wants, you know, isn't

764
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: getting her satisfaction or you know, respect. She's gone to

765
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: all of this effort to manipulate these two kids into

766
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 2: a position where, you know, maybe she can get back

767
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: some of her own some of her own pleasure, some

768
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: of her own power, some of her own freedom, as

769
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: you say, and she kind of gets none of these things,

770
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: and it's just very disappointing to her, whereas Tashi is

771
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: as much colder about it. But I think very much

772
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: in the same way, she has lost so much in

773
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: her life, and she she doesn't have control over her career,

774
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: she doesn't have control over her body anymore. So she

775
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: exerts control over these two men, and she's looking for

776
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: different things from them by the point in time where

777
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: we start the movie, but she still is looking to

778
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: you know, from that first meeting, she's engineering things out

779
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: of them, and the big match that you know, takes

780
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: up so much of the movie is something that she's engineered. Again.

781
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 2: She can't control certain aspects of her own life and

782
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: it's made her very bitter and very angry, so she

783
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: controls aspects of these two men's life instead. And I

784
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: just see that paralleling in both films.

785
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 3: Another thing that I was just thinking about too, in

786
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 3: terms of like the kind of specific connection between these

787
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 3: movies is just is this idea of letting go and

788
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: you see this, you see you know, the very very

789
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 3: end of challenges, and you see it in the threesome

790
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 3: that ends up taking place in etubmoment where it's like

791
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: all of these hang ups that they have developed, all

792
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: of these problems, they've had, these betrayals, these bro codes

793
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: that have been shattered, you know, in the case of Tashi,

794
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: all of these kind of like ambitions and things that

795
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 3: she's kind of put on to herself and put onto

796
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 3: the men in her life, Like all of that kind

797
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: of dissolves for a moment. You know, it's a climax

798
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 3: moment basically in both in both films, where it's just like,

799
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 3: all that stuff is on the table now and we

800
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 3: can let it go for this moment, in this moment,

801
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: and in this this moment is the scene of the

802
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 3: bar and the threesome INNY two moment Tom been and

803
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 3: then and then that moment is the very end of Challengers,

804
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: where the guys come together and she has a response

805
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: that's kind of is kind of ecstatic and pleasurable in

806
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 3: a way that nothing has been for her really the

807
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: whole movie. And and that moment is I think fleeting.

808
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: It's just it's just a small moment, moment out of

809
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: time in both of those movies, but important, I think

810
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 3: to both.

811
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like we should address the fact

812
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: that both of these movies very much structurally are around

813
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: two close friends who fight over a woman, destroy their relationship,

814
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: and then have to come back together. And one of

815
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: the main differences is kind of how long it takes

816
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: and where they both end up, but just in terms

817
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: of a really really close friendship that comes apart really

818
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: quickly under the pressure of two guys wanting the same girl.

819
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting how much these movies parallel each

820
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 2: other in terms of what gets said and what doesn't,

821
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: what they use against each other, particularly during their their breakups.

822
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: During their separations, as we noted in talking about Me

823
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: to Mama separately, the two guys there throw a lot

824
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: of stuff at each other about, particularly about class and

825
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: like financial disparity, but also just a lot of well

826
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: you did this, I'm gonna I'm gonna dredge up like

827
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: everything that you ever done or said wrong in our relationship.

828
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: Whereas Art and Patrick seem to just kind of go

829
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: to a place of sports competition. You know, I was

830
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: always better than you. Tannak and Julio just kind of

831
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: have you know, a thousand things that they can argue about,

832
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: including who swims farther underwater or faster, or whose penis

833
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: is more attractive. There are a lot of different things

834
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: that they can touch on, but Art and Patrick just

835
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: kind of come back to the same place. It's just

836
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: fundamentally a question of which of us is better, which

837
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: of us is more tennis? And as ridiculous as that

838
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: ending is, it feels like it answers that question in

839
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: like practically the only satisfying way possible.

840
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 4: I feel like we most of these connections have been

841
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: sort of circling the relationships and the characters more than anything.

842
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 4: But I did also kind of want to bring up

843
00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: a connection that is ultimately more of a contrast like

844
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 4: how these films actually work, which is that they each

845
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 4: have sort of a big device, a structural device. And

846
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 4: in YouTube Mama Tambien, it's sort of the break for narration,

847
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 4: which we talked a lot about in the first half,

848
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 4: and how that's used to sort of highlight the world

849
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 4: around this story that's happening between these three people. And

850
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 4: then in Challengers it's the time jumping, and both are

851
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 4: used like two different effects, but it just struck me

852
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 4: that they are both devices that just sort of interrupt

853
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 4: to the action of the movie very purposefully. And you know,

854
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 4: in other contexts, both like voiceover and time jumping our

855
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 4: light can be really annoying narrative devices, you know, with

856
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 4: something we might complain about in other context. And I

857
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 4: guess I did complain about the time jumping a little,

858
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 4: but I don't ultimately mind it as much as I

859
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 4: do in other context where it's like used much more

860
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 4: willing nilly. I think like the purposefulness of both of

861
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 4: these devices is really notable in these two films in particular.

862
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: Just for balance Genevieve, if you like, I'll complain about

863
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: the voiceover in YouTube. Mama. You know, I think it

864
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: brings in all sorts of interesting things we wouldn't know otherwise.

865
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: I think you were the one that was making the

866
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 2: point about Chewi and how touching his story is and

867
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: kind of how it brings up, you know, even more

868
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: of these economic dividers. But man, this movie came out

869
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 2: the same year as Omily and Amily took so much

870
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: razzing for this exact same structure with the voiceover coming

871
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: in and telling you, like the life story of random

872
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: people on screen. And I would swear that some people

873
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 2: on this podcast right now really hated that device in Omily.

874
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 2: It's all I could think of on this rewatch Cheotsie.

875
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: The thing is like the thing the difference too, is

876
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 3: that is that there's a there's a flexibility to the

877
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 3: there's a surprise and an elegance and kind of a

878
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: novelistic quality to the narration in youtu, Mamatambien that that

879
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: gives it that makes it special. I mean, I love

880
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: just that ability that the film kind of gives itself

881
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 3: to not just extend the stories of different people who

882
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: encounter along the way, but just to give you bits

883
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: of psychological insight and in backstort, like just fill in

884
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: details the way that a novel might, but you know,

885
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: doing it through voiceover in a way that doesn't really

886
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 3: disrupt the narrative flow of the film at all. I

887
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 3: I really like that part of this movie. And then

888
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 3: as for the time jump elements, and I like the

889
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 3: structure and of challenges quite a bit, and I think

890
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 3: it pays off and you know in some pretty big ways.

891
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, you know, I mean, it's it's

892
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: well channeled or planted, but the the uh the way

893
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 3: the uh service stroke I suppose is used to review information. Yes,

894
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 3: I was waiting for it. I was waiting for the end.

895
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is great, Yeah, this is

896
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 3: gonna happen, and it's gonna.

897
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 4: Discompletely literally lean over to my husband said he's going

898
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 4: to do the thing with the racket.

899
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 3: I know. I was so excited when I when I

900
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: realized that was gonna happen, because it was gonna it

901
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 3: was gonna make for some interesting tennis. But I do

902
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 3: like that, you know, those are you know, big narrative

903
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 3: devices or gimmicks or whatever. I think. I think they're

904
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: quite successful and quite important in both of these films.

905
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's interesting. I mean just I think

906
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 5: one big thing is this part is is that. And

907
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 5: I know we've talked about the chronology being different for

908
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 5: both these films, but like it is different to see

909
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 5: similar stories told in which one is a straight progression

910
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 5: and each mom Tommy was actually filmed in chronological order,

911
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 5: which I wonder, you know, yeah, I kind of wonder

912
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 5: if that that helped with that as well. I can't imagine.

913
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 5: I don't know how what order the Challenges are shot in,

914
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 5: but but you know, good, you know, this is why

915
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 5: I'm not an actor. I do not know how you

916
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 5: play a character at one point in their life, much

917
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 5: less different points in their lives, you know, back to

918
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 5: back on different days.

919
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: I have to think the Challengers cut in chronological order

920
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: would be a lot like watching Memento the addition of

921
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: it that was are recut in chronological order and just

922
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 2: felt like a really straightforward, kind of boring noir. I

923
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: don't think that Challengers works as a chronological movie. So

924
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: I'm I'm very happy with this device personally.

925
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 4: Sorry, I just got to wedge one more thing in here,

926
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 4: like the thing, Like, I didn't want to let this

927
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 4: conversation end without talking about the service moment there. There

928
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 4: is a moment in YouTube Mama Tombien that I really

929
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 4: wanted to touch on and maybe kind of broadly falls

930
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 4: under this umbrella of quote unquote filmmaking gimmicks. But I

931
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 4: did not realize until this viewing that there is a

932
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: very long take set in a car in youtu Mama Tombien, which,

933
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 4: of course Alfonso korn Is has a very famous car

934
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 4: based long long take later on in his filmography. But

935
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,919
Speaker 4: this one took me by surprise because it's just it's

936
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 4: a lot chiller, but on a tech technical level, like

937
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 4: just the it's just a long conversation as they're driving.

938
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 4: It probably goes for probably a good two minutes or

939
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 4: so of just kind of unbroken dialogue while driving. I

940
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 4: don't think there was any like trickery done there. I

941
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 4: think that was just filmed straightforward in a car while driving,

942
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 4: you know, and that is kind of to go back

943
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 4: to this very like chronological filming style. It made me

944
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 4: think of that, and, like I said, didn't want to

945
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 4: end this conversation without noting it.

946
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: All Right, well, we record this these episodes in chronological order.

947
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: And now is the time where I tell you that

948
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: Etu Mama Tambia and is streaming on AMC Plus and

949
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 3: is rentable from Amazon, but really nowhere else. I don't

950
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 3: know why. It's also on Criteria and DVD and Blu

951
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 3: Ray Challenges is currently in theaters. We'll be right back

952
00:50:49,960 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 3: with your Next Picture Show. Finally, it's time to recommend

953
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 3: a film or a film related item that compliments this

954
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 3: set of episodes. We call it your Next Picture Show,

955
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 3: and I hopes it will put some interesting choices on

956
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 3: your radar. I wanted to recommend a film that people

957
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: maybe don't need me to recommend because it was It

958
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 3: was Oscar nominated and didn't come out too long ago.

959
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 3: But it's Alfonso Quoron's Roma, which is the film that

960
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 3: he made for Netflix, has just been sitting there, just

961
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 3: like anything else you make from Netflix. He gets made.

962
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 3: It's just on there so you can find it there.

963
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: It's in black and white, and there's a moment in

964
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 3: Eachu Mama Tambien that bentions this beautiful place with waves

965
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 3: where people have drowned, and of course that reminded me

966
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: quite well remind you quite a bit of where Roma

967
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 3: ends up going. But a lot of things will also

968
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: resonate if you've seen both films that which feel quite personal,

969
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: which Quoron had a hand in writing, which it seemed

970
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 3: to stem from his memories, you know, of being a

971
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 3: privileged kid, I mean and in Roma and Roma, you know,

972
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 3: he's one of his alter ego in the film. In

973
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 3: the film is one of several kids who who you know,

974
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 3: grow up into privilege and and who whose parents don't

975
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 3: really get along very well. But but and who looks

976
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 3: to this nanny for who has been like a mother

977
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 3: figure to him and and uh, and yet yet his

978
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 3: perspective on it, as Alfonso Quiron the adult and the filmmaker,

979
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 3: is quite a bit different than his perspective when he

980
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: was was a child. And this is this movie is

981
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 3: kind of a way of trying to understand her as

982
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: a person and and the things that she experiences that

983
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 3: she was having and had to go through. Uh and

984
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: also understanding the the the tumult of the political tumult

985
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 3: in the backdrop during Mexico at this time as well,

986
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 3: which is another feature that's similar to Eat to Mom

987
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 3: and Tom Began, both very emotional films both beautifully photographed

988
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 3: by Emmanuel Lubeski, and I think they compliment each other

989
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 3: very nicely. You you like Roma, You like Roma? Right?

990
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 6: Love Roma? Yeah?

991
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I haven't revisited it though since it came out,

992
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: so my memory is a little fuzzy, but it's I

993
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 4: don't want to wait too long to revisit it. So

994
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 4: this is a good relinder.

995
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: As long as we waited to revisit. You to Mama.

996
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very emotional and I it's so beautiful and

997
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: it's you know, I think Quorn is just he knows

998
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 3: how to punch when it comes time in to punch,

999
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 3: like he'll you know, his best movies you think about

1000
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: like Children of Men and Gravity and each of Mama,

1001
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 3: Tombien and Roma they have they build a certain scenes

1002
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 3: and moments that are just so forceful and he just

1003
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 3: he just really punches hard when he needs to. And

1004
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 3: Roma has at least two or three scenes in it

1005
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: that have that kind of overwhelming power to them. And

1006
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 3: that's that's that's filmmaking. Baby.

1007
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 4: So wait, wait, wait, quick, quick quick thought of exercise

1008
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 4: before we leave this, because Roma premiered when we were

1009
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 4: doing this podcast, but we did not do it for

1010
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 4: this podcast. But if we did, what any ideas for

1011
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 4: what we would have paired I was gonna say, we

1012
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 4: could have paired with like, I don't know, actually.

1013
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 5: It's really specific, I mean coming out of age story.

1014
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 5: Well no, I don't know. I actually don't know what

1015
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 5: would work with. That's sort of that that detailed to that.

1016
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 5: You know, that much of a of a walk through

1017
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 5: one person's memories.

1018
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but there's kind of some interesting in

1019
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 3: terms of class. I mean, they're also class conscious conscience

1020
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 3: and uh and I think there was certainly some controversy

1021
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 3: drumed up in Roma about that very nice, very nice

1022
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 3: film just sitting there on Netflix. This makes me sad

1023
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: for some reason.

1024
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 6: You know, Criteria put out a nice glory of it too.

1025
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 6: It's out deliberate out there.

1026
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 3: Okay, well that's a relief. So you can see it

1027
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: on the Criterion as well as Netflix. So that's it

1028
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 3: for this edition of the Next Picture Show. But we'll

1029
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 3: be back next week with another set of episodes. Genevieve,

1030
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 3: do you want to tell us about our next episodes?

1031
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 4: David Leach's latest film, The Fall Guy finds the director

1032
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 4: adapting a Fondley if faintly remember nineteen eighties TV series,

1033
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 4: but it's also the Stuntman turned Director's tribute to the

1034
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 4: world of movie stunts and those who put their bodies

1035
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 4: in danger for our entertainment that naturally made us think

1036
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 4: of Richard Rush's nineteen eighty film The Stuntman, in which

1037
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 4: Steve Railsback plays a fugitive from the law who finds

1038
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 4: himself in over his head after deciding in a hide

1039
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 4: out by taking a job as a stuntman on the

1040
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 4: latest film held by a megalomaniacal director played by Peter O'Toole.

1041
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 4: Both feature stunts and play games with reality, and we'll

1042
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 4: be talking about them across our next two episodes.

1043
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 3: For now, we welcome your feedback on YouTube, Mama Tombien, Challengers,

1044
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 3: and anything else film related you'd like to talk about.

1045
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 3: Email us or send a voice memo to us at

1046
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 3: comments at Next Picture Show dot net, or leaves a

1047
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 3: you waste mail at seven seven three two three four

1048
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 3: nine seven three zero Before we close out this week's episode,

1049
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 3: Where can we find everyone these days? Tasha Robinson, I'm the.

1050
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: Film and streaming editor over at polygon dot com, where

1051
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 2: I've interviewed Alex Garland about civil war and written about

1052
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 2: challengers and a whole bunch of other stuff. I'm on

1053
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 2: Blue Sky at Tasha Robinson. I'm also on Letterboxed as

1054
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 2: Tasha Robinson. Chennevieven, what about you.

1055
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 4: Oh, same old samel. I am the TV editor at Vulture,

1056
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 4: staying mostly behind the scenes and lurking on various social

1057
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 4: platforms at Genevievkowski.

1058
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 3: People can visit your page and just imagine what pages

1059
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 3: you looking at on the rare occasion that you're checking

1060
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 3: on social media.

1061
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 4: Honestly, like, it's pretty much just Instagram for me these days.

1062
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 4: Guys like I don't even like, Yeah, I don't know.

1063
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 4: It's too hard. It's too hard to look at social

1064
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 4: media during the workday for me. I like lost that

1065
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 4: muscle when I stopped tweeting, and it's I can't like

1066
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 4: I've for the most the ability.

1067
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: Yep.

1068
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 4: But Scott, I have a feeling that you still I do.

1069
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 4: I do.

1070
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 3: I can't help myself. I do kind of. I still

1071
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 3: sort of do Twitter at Scott underscore to bias because

1072
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 3: the people at Blue Sky are not into sports. So

1073
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 3: now I'm into sports right now in a big way.

1074
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: And but but I am at Blue Sky also at

1075
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 3: Scott Tobias. Without the underscore, you can find my work

1076
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: primarily the Reveal, the the newsletter that I write with

1077
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 3: Keith Phipps, and then that's it. That's the reveal about

1078
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 3: substack dot com. And then I'm also at The New

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00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 3: York Times, Guardian, Vulture and other fine publications.

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Speaker 5: What about you, Keith, Well, I'm also you know, let's

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00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 5: start with social media.

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00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 6: I'm I've been posting a lot. Should I post more?

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00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 4: No?

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00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 5: No, okay, I've just kind of checked out. It's like,

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00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 5: you know, one of my missing you know what I'm

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00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 5: going back. Well, I don't know if you do want

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00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 5: to find me. I k FIP three thousand everywhere, but

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00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 5: I'm mostly on Blue Sky. I should use instrument because actually,

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00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 5: like Instagram, I also co write Revealed the Reveal dot

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00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 5: substack dot Com with Scott Tobias. You can read me there,

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00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 5: you can sometimes dream me at Vulture, sometimes a TV guide,

1092
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 5: occasionally at the Ringer And yeah, that's kind of it.

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00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, you can say updated on the Next Picture

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00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 3: Show at Next Pictures Show dot net, and I'm Blue

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00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 3: Sky at at the Next Picture Show. Get bonus content

1096
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 3: and open discussion at patreon dot com slash Next Picture

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00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 3: Show and as always, we appreciate your ratings and reviews

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00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 3: on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to

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00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 3: the show. Thanks to Dan the Bake Jakes for his

1100
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 3: assistants producing this podcast. The Next Picture Show is proud

1101
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: to be part of the Film Spotting family of podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Please tune in next time.