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Speaker 1: Welcome to Text Stuff, a production from my Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: M Hey there, and welcome to text Stuff, a podcast

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio. I am your host, Drack Cool,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, and I love all things deck. I I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I know that was that was even more cringe worthy

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Speaker 1: than my quizter appearances on Ridiculous History. Yeah, I I

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Speaker 1: apologize that you all had to listen to that. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: It's time for a text Stuff classic. And this one

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Speaker 1: actually comes as a recommend a from carry on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: who said that I should really revisit one that I

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Speaker 1: did way back in twenty ten. See back on February first,

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten, we published an episode titled ghost Hunting Technology.

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Speaker 1: Chris Pallette, my original co host, and I walked through

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Speaker 1: the various gadgets and technologies used by ghost hunters, and

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Speaker 1: we explained what that technology actually is foreign and how

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Speaker 1: it works and what it's supposed to do. And I

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about how the use of such technology

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Speaker 1: is misguided when it comes to, you know, putting it

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Speaker 1: towards ghost hunting, and that it's based on faulty reasoning,

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Speaker 1: and the big thing is that it really boils down

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Speaker 1: to ghost hunters operating as if ghosts are already a

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Speaker 1: known fact, like that they four fact exist, and then

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Speaker 1: they explain how tech behaving in some particular way supports

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Speaker 1: that fact and counts as evidence of their being a ghost.

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Speaker 1: But we haven't established that ghosts are a fact, so

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Speaker 1: you can't point at anything and say it's evidence that

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Speaker 1: a ghost exists. You've got to prove the ghost exists first,

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Speaker 1: and then through lots of different, you know, experiments determine

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Speaker 1: what elements point to whether or not a ghost is present.

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Speaker 1: You can't just say that light is flickering, therefore ghost.

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Speaker 1: That's not how science works. Anyway, since we're on all

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Speaker 1: Hallow's eve Eve, I thought it would be good to

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Speaker 1: run this as a classic episode, and you can hear

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Speaker 1: how ten years ago I argued for critical thinking. And

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Speaker 1: when the classic episode is over, I'm gonna have a

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Speaker 1: few more things to say about the topic of ghosts.

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Speaker 1: So please stick around because there's more to come. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode. I don't know that we have

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Speaker 1: a ghost of a chance of getting through this without

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Speaker 1: you losing it, but we should try. I ain't afraid

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Speaker 1: of no ghost, so you may have already guessed what

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Speaker 1: our topic is, but it comes to us courtesy of

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Speaker 1: a little listener mail. List listener mail comes from Will

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Speaker 1: from Austin, Texas, and he says, Hi, guys, I just

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Speaker 1: recently started subscribing to the podcast and always have it

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Speaker 1: playing in my car to and from work. I am

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Speaker 1: in the I T field, and even though I feel

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Speaker 1: like I have a somewhat firm grasp on some of

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Speaker 1: the concepts that are discussed, it is always nice to

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Speaker 1: have something explained in a visual manner. There's which is

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Speaker 1: odd for an audio podcast, right you know that maybe

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Speaker 1: he senses that there's something I am curious about which

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Speaker 1: seems to be all the craze right now, and that

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Speaker 1: is all of the different ghost hunting shows on TV

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Speaker 1: right now. I'm a sucker for them myself and end

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Speaker 1: up watching them somewhat intrigued with the technology that they use,

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Speaker 1: the things they catch within the infrared spectrum, the e

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Speaker 1: m F meters and e m F pumps that they

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Speaker 1: used to attract entities, and the digital recorders used to

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Speaker 1: capture what is called e v P electronic voice phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, there's nothing hard and fast that

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Speaker 1: says E m F detectors are legitimate for detecting levels

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Speaker 1: of magnetic activity. So it would be really nice to

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Speaker 1: hear y'all talk a bit about the technology used in

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Speaker 1: TV shows like Ghost Hunters, Ghost Labs, Ghost Adventures, Paranormal State.

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Speaker 1: Thanks will Well, I think we're going to have a

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Speaker 1: spirited discussion. Yes, I'm going to rattle my chains, you know.

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Speaker 1: I will say that that my wife is a fan

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Speaker 1: of a lot of these shows, um, and I have

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Speaker 1: only watched bits and pieces of them, so I am

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Speaker 1: less familiar with them. But um, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I found out when I started getting into this

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Speaker 1: is that, uh, they're not using a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: high tech gadgetry in order to investigate the paranormal and

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff off the shelf. What little they're using,

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Speaker 1: they're using incorrectly. Okay, I'm going to preface this by

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Speaker 1: saying I'm going to preface this by saying I am

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Speaker 1: a skeptic. And when I say skeptic, I don't mean

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Speaker 1: someone who automatically denies whether or not something exists. When

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Speaker 1: I'm saying skeptic, I'm talking about a person who requires

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Speaker 1: there to be some sort of empirical evidence that something

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Speaker 1: exists before I just go ahead and accept it. And

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Speaker 1: as far as ghost hunting goes, there is such an

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Speaker 1: enormous lack of empirical evidence that any of this is

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Speaker 1: doing anything that I find the whole industry that has

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Speaker 1: sprung up around ghost hunting to be infuriating. And I

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Speaker 1: really do mean that, because, Okay, folks, if you want

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Speaker 1: to type in e m F detector into any search engine,

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Speaker 1: I guarantee you that at least one, if not several,

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Speaker 1: of the main results that pop up first, are going

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Speaker 1: to be about ghost hunting equipment. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: They don't detect ghosts. I mean, there's no proof that

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Speaker 1: they detect ghosts. There's no proof that ghosts even affect

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Speaker 1: elector of magnetic fields, which is what e m F

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Speaker 1: detectors and meters are designed to detect. There's no proof

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Speaker 1: that a ghost exists number one. And then there's no

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Speaker 1: proof that if they do exist, that they affect these fields.

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Speaker 1: So why would using this tool be an indication that

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Speaker 1: there is a ghost present? Well, that's uh, that's sort

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Speaker 1: of the whole thing is that I mean, is that

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Speaker 1: people are using these people are using these devices um

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Speaker 1: in hopes of finding something, and in many cases it's

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Speaker 1: either in disproving the existence of a an entity in

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Speaker 1: the room or proving it. I mean it's not it's not. Hey,

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Speaker 1: let's stick a tape recorder in the room for an hour.

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Speaker 1: And it drives me nuts because why would this device,

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Speaker 1: over any other be a good indicator that there is

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Speaker 1: a presence in the room. That's what. That is the

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Speaker 1: point where I'm already having my first problem with the

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Speaker 1: whole ghost hunting thing is that it's like you arbitrarily

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Speaker 1: assigned ghosts this ability to do something based upon I

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Speaker 1: don't know what, and that somehow watching a little needle

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Speaker 1: move indicates that there must be something here. You can

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Speaker 1: just as easily say, hey, let's take this metal detector

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Speaker 1: and will run it over the ground and every time

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Speaker 1: it beats, that's where a ghost is. Because I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's you just you're making up the rules as you

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Speaker 1: go along. You can't do that. What you have to

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Speaker 1: do first is established that there is such a thing

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Speaker 1: as a ghost, and then determine whether or not a

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Speaker 1: ghost is able to affect an electromagnetic field, Because then

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Speaker 1: you could say, okay, this tool will detect this thing.

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Speaker 1: That's the way science works. People. You don't sit there

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Speaker 1: and assume something is true and then try and find

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Speaker 1: a way to justify it. Here's how it works. You

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Speaker 1: observe some sort of phenomena, You try and create an

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Speaker 1: explanation for that phenomena. You then test your explanation. If

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Speaker 1: your explanation holds after multiple tests done by multiple people

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Speaker 1: under multiple situations, and it still holds true, then you

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Speaker 1: can say you know something. You can't just say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this needle move, therefore there's a dead person in the room. What. No,

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Speaker 1: that's not how it works. I joked that we could

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Speaker 1: call this podcast how critical thinking works. Honestly, people, critical

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Speaker 1: thinking is so important. If you don't use critical thinking,

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Speaker 1: if you just swallow that the needle moved, therefore something

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Speaker 1: is in this room, then I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: tell you. Okay, well, let's uh, let me breathe, let's

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Speaker 1: back away from that from that edge. We're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to stay with this edge because we have to talk

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Speaker 1: about what E m F detectors actually do. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: the thing, I mean, that's what I'm saying. Let's opinion aside.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about this stuff that actually works what opinion. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm just well, that's but that's the thing, though, there

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Speaker 1: are other people who claim that they have heard and

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Speaker 1: seen things using this equipment. Countless I'm saying, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know I have. I have no doubts that there

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Speaker 1: I have no doubts that there are people out there

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Speaker 1: who truly believe that they have experienced something that is inexplicable,

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Speaker 1: just as I have absolutely no doubt that the things

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Speaker 1: they experienced were completely explicable because they did not have

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Speaker 1: the necessary facts or ways of determining those facts at

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Speaker 1: their disposal at the time. And also, these events tend

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Speaker 1: to become more um outlandish or or perhaps we should say,

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Speaker 1: more extravagant over time as we think back and we

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Speaker 1: tell stories over we tend to elaborate and and I'm

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Speaker 1: not even saying people are are fibbing or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: They could completely believe in what they're saying. There are

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Speaker 1: stories I've told where I've gone back and looked at something,

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Speaker 1: you know, like like a video of a performance I

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Speaker 1: was in and realized that the story I tell is

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Speaker 1: not matching up to reality. But in my mind, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly the way it happened. We all do this. It's

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Speaker 1: just in case I think what it's done is spawned

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Speaker 1: an entire industry. Well, you know, you're right that there

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Speaker 1: there is no empirical evidence. There's nothing in scientific journals

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Speaker 1: that indicates that any of these pieces of gear that

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about has any ability to really

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Speaker 1: find a ghost. There's nothing in any scientific journals about

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Speaker 1: it that I was able to find in my research. Well,

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Speaker 1: but the first step, of of course, is the fact

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Speaker 1: that there's no scientific evidence for a ghost. So you

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Speaker 1: can't be device could find something. That wouldn't be the point.

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Speaker 1: But I looked, Um, I'm glad you did. But and

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Speaker 1: you know what I found out. What's that some one

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Speaker 1: of the culprits behind the idea of using electronics to

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Speaker 1: try to find spirits or you know, some kind of

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Speaker 1: paranormal activity Thomas Edison. He actually said that, Um, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't get the quote. I should have gotten the quote.

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Speaker 1: But basically he said that he believed that there was

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Speaker 1: a way to create an electronic instrument that if a

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Speaker 1: ghost existed, would be that the instrument would be capable

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Speaker 1: of detecting it, some sort of ghost detector to lice. Now,

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Speaker 1: he he never built anything like that, and he never

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Speaker 1: That doesn't necessarily mean that he believed in ghosts, because

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Speaker 1: actually he said he didn't know whether or not they existed.

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Speaker 1: If they didn't exist, there should be a way to

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Speaker 1: detect them, is what he was saying. And of course

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Speaker 1: I actually saw quotes from him in a couple of places. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's kind of funny to imagine that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that that some people said, Okay, well, let's

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Speaker 1: try to build something that will detect a ghost. And

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Speaker 1: if you believe that a ghost, if it exists, is

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Speaker 1: creating some kind of field um magnetic or electrical, or

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Speaker 1: you know, giving off some kind of signature in another

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Speaker 1: plane that you cannot see, then you might try to

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Speaker 1: use things like infrared cameras or e m F detectors

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Speaker 1: or ion density detectors to try to find something that

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Speaker 1: would indicate why you feel cold when you walk in

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Speaker 1: this room. That just it seems so strange to me,

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Speaker 1: because you could just as easily say, you know, I

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Speaker 1: believe ghosts exist, but the only people who can detect

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Speaker 1: them are female, left handed redheads. I mean, that's just

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Speaker 1: as valid a point as saying ghosts must exist therefore

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Speaker 1: they give off some sort of electromagnetic field. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to haunt you with the threat of ads, but

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Speaker 1: it's time for us to take a quick break. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry again. Well, this is one of those things that

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Speaker 1: that surprised me when I started doing the research was that, um,

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Speaker 1: the people who have been doing this for a while

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Speaker 1: basically take a plain old tape re quarter and a

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Speaker 1: camera and a notebook and they go in and they

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Speaker 1: sit down and they try to find, you know, see

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Speaker 1: if they see anything unusual. They take pictures, um and

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Speaker 1: try to make notes of anything they don't get. They

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Speaker 1: don't buy a lot of fancy and there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of um who who do this in the hopes of

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Speaker 1: finding some sort of proof of of that there are

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Speaker 1: such things as ghosts, but who are also very intellectually honest,

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Speaker 1: and they they objectively look at each and every indicator

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Speaker 1: and determine whether or not there is a physical explanation

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Speaker 1: for it or not. And in those cases, I think

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Speaker 1: you'll find that most of those ghost hunters have so

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Speaker 1: far come up zero percent on the ghost and a

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Speaker 1: percent on some sort of physical explanation. Yeah, but that's

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Speaker 1: not again, let me make this clear. That's not to

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Speaker 1: say that ghosts do not exist. I can't say that.

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Speaker 1: There's no way that I could say that ghosts do

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Speaker 1: not exist and be honest with myself about it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. What I can say is that there's no

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Speaker 1: empirical proof that they exist, and until there is, I

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Speaker 1: just don't believe in them. So, but let's talk about

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the what electromagnetic field meters do. What

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Speaker 1: you're designed to do. So these are devices that, as

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Speaker 1: you would imagine, detect fluctuations in electro magnetic fields, and

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Speaker 1: various things can create fluctuations. Usually it's some sort of

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Speaker 1: electronic device, because, as you've probably heard us talk about before,

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Speaker 1: electricity and magnetic fields are closely related. You can induce

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Speaker 1: one using the other. So these detectors, what they're designed

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Speaker 1: to do is to detect fluctuations in the field, mainly

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Speaker 1: for electrical purposes, and so you might detect a fluctuation

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Speaker 1: around electronics where you might have something that's not properly grounded.

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Speaker 1: It's really an indicator to tell you, Okay, wait, the

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Speaker 1: wiring in my house isn't as good as I thought

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Speaker 1: it was, and I need to have this looked at

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Speaker 1: or the shielding on this this power cable is clearly

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Speaker 1: not as strong as it needs to be, and that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm getting interference with my other electronics. That's what's

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Speaker 1: meant for um it's and what what drives me nuts

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Speaker 1: as seeing companies that are selling e m F meters

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Speaker 1: which do have a legitimate useful application and they're saying

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Speaker 1: it's a great e m F meter slash ghost detector

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Speaker 1: then drives me crazy because again there's no proof that

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Speaker 1: it's actually detectually detecting bathing other than electromagnetic fluctuations that

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Speaker 1: could be explained by wiring or magnets or whatever. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, I saw one site and I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to name the site, but I saw one site they

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Speaker 1: had a frequently asked question section and said what reading

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Speaker 1: am I looking for on this gadget and said a

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Speaker 1: reading of two to seven milligos may be due to

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Speaker 1: spirit activity? How do you determine that? How did you

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Speaker 1: just say that, Oh, if you get a measure of

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Speaker 1: two to seven, that means there's a there's probably a

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Speaker 1: ghost there. This it's made up out of whole cloth

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Speaker 1: because there's no basis effect behind it. But at any rate.

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Speaker 1: E m F meters are legitimate tools for electricians, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily for ghost hunters. And maybe ghosts do affect e

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Speaker 1: m F fields somehow, or I shouldn't say e m

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Speaker 1: F fields because now I'm repeating part of the acronym.

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Speaker 1: But maybe they do have some sort of effect on

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Speaker 1: electromagnetic fields. But without any evidence to back that up,

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Speaker 1: we can't say for sure. And it turns out that

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Speaker 1: in most cases, in fact, I would have would probably

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Speaker 1: argue all cases whenever you use a meter and the

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Speaker 1: bill needle is starting to go around and find a

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Speaker 1: hot spot, there's probably just a wiring issue that would

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Speaker 1: explain it. Um. Yeah. Another another item that I saw

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Speaker 1: that it's more higher tech I guess, um, would be

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Speaker 1: the ion density counter. Yes, and that could be used

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Speaker 1: for a lot of things. Um. What it does is

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Speaker 1: it tries to detect the number of ions in a

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Speaker 1: cubic centimeter of air, and it can be used to

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Speaker 1: detect things like rate on um, whether there are combustible

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Speaker 1: vapors in the area, electrical arcs. Right, very legitimate uses, UM,

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Speaker 1: and this really uh plays into the whether you know,

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Speaker 1: into the skeptics view of whether or not this gadget

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Speaker 1: would be useful in detecting any paranormal activity. You would

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Speaker 1: have to assume first that whatever the paranormal activity is

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Speaker 1: gives off ions. Well, that's number one. I thought that

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Speaker 1: was assumed at this point. I'm I'm spelling it out, okay,

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Speaker 1: because there's here's here's why I spell that out. I

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Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people who use these

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Speaker 1: devices who have no idea what the device is truly

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Speaker 1: meant for, or at least was originally meant for. It's

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Speaker 1: a good point, and they don't understand what it really

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Speaker 1: means when they get a reading off these devices. So

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds like I'm going super basic on this,

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Speaker 1: but it's really to drive home the point of there

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Speaker 1: are legitimate uses for these devices that have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with ghost hunting, and if you keep that in

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Speaker 1: mind before we move on to the whole ghost hunting thing,

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Speaker 1: it helps explain away a lot of the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: anomalies that you might find. I'm sorry, I interrupted you,

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Speaker 1: Please go on. Well, the thing about an ion detector

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Speaker 1: or eye in density detector is the air has to

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Speaker 1: be very very still around it, so it's a particularly

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Speaker 1: sensitive device and lots of things can affect the reading

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Speaker 1: on it. So like a draft, Yeah, a draft will

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Speaker 1: affect the reading. And you know if a draft comes in, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, you might say, oh wait, the needles moving. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that a lot of ghost behavior can

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Speaker 1: be explained by poor zelent around the window. Sounds like

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Speaker 1: a joke, but it's really true. No, no, no, it's

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Speaker 1: but it's it's funny because you know, just apparently just

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Speaker 1: the slightest thing will um, you know, it really needs

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Speaker 1: to sit still and be left alone for a while

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Speaker 1: for it to be to give off an accurate reading

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Speaker 1: of whether or not there are a lot of ions

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Speaker 1: in the area, and of course the whole if there

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Speaker 1: were ghosts, would they give off ions? So there you are.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about devices that are very sensitive and can

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Speaker 1: easily give off false positives. That's another problem, and that

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to interpret a false positive as evidence

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Speaker 1: of some sort of supernatural activity, when in fact it

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Speaker 1: may just be that there was a breeze that blew

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Speaker 1: by and that's what affected the reading. Um. Knowing how

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Speaker 1: to use this equipment properly eliminates a lot of the

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Speaker 1: doubt around the equipment, all right, So what else. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, then some people actually have been using Geiger counters, apparently,

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Speaker 1: because which is designed to detect radiation exactly. Again, there's

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Speaker 1: no I don't think a lot of them do. And

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Speaker 1: I haven't heard, but I saw that in a list

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Speaker 1: of equipment that you might here with you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if a ghost is able to affect electromagnetic fields,

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't a ghost be radioactive? I mean, why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: ghosts be able to create jello out of thin air?

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00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we we could just go ahead and keep

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Speaker 1: on attributing stuff to go all day long. And you know, again,

338
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Speaker 1: my metal detector example earlier on its completely valid. I mean,

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00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: if you're gonna just grab whatever tools and use them

340
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Speaker 1: to this purpose, why not a metal detector. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've we've seen motion sensors being used as a ghost

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00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 1: hunting material as well. Um, lots of stuff can trip

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Speaker 1: motion sensors, and I wonder if a ghost would trip

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Speaker 1: a motion sensor. I mean, I don't understand how the

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00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand the set of rules that ghosts apparently obey.

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Speaker 1: That's part of the problem is that if they trip

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Speaker 1: motion sensors but not other things. I mean, how does

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00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: that work? I find it a kind of confusing night

349
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Speaker 1: vision goggles too. That's that's actually a question I have,

350
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Speaker 1: and maybe maybe somebody can answer that for me. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to sound like I'm making

352
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 1: fun of any of these shows, but if the ghosts

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Speaker 1: can be seen in the lighter that, I mean, why

354
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Speaker 1: are all these shows shot in the dark? Let me

355
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Speaker 1: explain that, because I really don't know. I have a

356
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: I have a good reason for the whole dark ghost thing.

357
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 1: That has everything to do with psychology, all right, and

358
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 1: actually there's some physiology here as well. So at night,

359
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 1: you're in you're you're at your house. At night, you

360
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: settle down to go to sleep, and you hear a

361
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: strange noise. At night, your house tends to be more

362
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: quiet than during the daytime. People have settled down, right,

363
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: everyone's in bed, so noises that would normally be covered

364
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 1: up by just the activity in your house during the

365
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: daytime are no longer covered up. Your your mind is

366
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: still alert. So you're laying in bed and you're thinking,

367
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Speaker 1: is there someone moving around the house. I just heard

368
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Speaker 1: a creaking noise I could just as easily be the

369
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: sound of your house. Settling. Uh, it could be the

370
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 1: sound of a board warping slowly, just boards do warp

371
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Speaker 1: over time. Sometimes they make noise. Sometimes it's like a

372
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: low moaning noise, which might sound familiar to people who

373
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 1: are familiar with the whole ghost mythology thing. Um, so

374
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: that's part of it. Is just that that's the physiological

375
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: part of it. But psychologically it's that you know, Uh, nighttime,

376
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: that's when we're not concentrating on anything else. Our mind

377
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: can completely focus on these events. And humans like to

378
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: create patterns out of things. They like explanations for things.

379
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: And if we can't easily explain it by something that

380
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 1: we're really familiar with, it's very easy to jump on

381
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: the unfamiliar supernatural train and say, oh, well, this must

382
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: have been caused by this paranormal activity. So you'll see

383
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: similar things, like if you look into the clouds and

384
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: you see a human face, it's because humans like patterns.

385
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 1: We find patterns and stuff all over the place. That's

386
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 1: actually called a paradolia is what's referred to as so

387
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: paradolia is where we start seeing patterns and things. We

388
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: usually actually paradolia specifically about faces, being able to recognize

389
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,239
Speaker 1: faces and things like the water. You know, you might

390
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: look into some muddy water and say, oh, my gosh,

391
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: I just saw a face looking back at me. That

392
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: wasn't a reflection, it was actually a face. Because we

393
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: see these things, our mind creates a pattern and we

394
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: convince ourselves that we've seen something that wasn't necessarily there. Uh.

395
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: The same sort of thing happens when we hear noises.

396
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: We start to our brains start to to fill in gaps,

397
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: and as a result, we add information there that wasn't

398
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: necessarily there. Originally, the spirits are quiet, but the advertisers aren't,

399
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: So we're going to take another quick break. I would

400
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: argue that this is also the case when you're talking

401
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 1: about the whole electronic voice phenomenon stuff where you've taken

402
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 1: a recorder and you you listen to the sounds that

403
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: have been left on that recorder and you start to

404
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: try and pick stuff out. You'll find a lot of

405
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: sound files out there where people will claim, oh, if

406
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: you listen carefully, you'll hear a woman crying in the background,

407
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: where you'll hear someone saying something that you just can't

408
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: quite make it out, or maybe you can even sort

409
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: of make out a few words. I would argue with

410
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: a lot of those, it's just random noises that our

411
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: brain kind of pieces together and tries to make sense

412
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: out of, because we don't really like random well, um,

413
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: you know, they say, or at least the information I

414
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: got when I was doing some research on it, indicated

415
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: that people who are engaged in ghost hunting activities will

416
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: tell you that they don't hear these sounds when they're

417
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: actually in the room, but when they go back and

418
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: listen to the tapes, something has made that noise appear

419
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: on the track. And of course the a lot of

420
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: people who disbelieve that say that, you know, this is

421
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: what's called I t C instrumental transcommunication, which is UM

422
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: or no, that's what the proponents say that that's what

423
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: it's called. They're trying to talk to you via the

424
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: recording UM, and the people who are against to say, no,

425
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: that's electrical interference. Something is you know, making these noises

426
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: pop up um on your uh, you know, on the

427
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: tape recorder, on your digital recorder that you used to

428
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: to do this and it's a flaw um. But you know,

429
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: they people stared at computer screens trying to analyze the

430
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: wave form, looking for the patterns again, You're looking for

431
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: them again. It's just I think it's just our desire

432
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: to be able to organize the universe in a way

433
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: that makes sense to us. And I mean, that's that's

434
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: what science is all based on. It's trying to understand

435
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: the universe. It's just that science takes a very specific

436
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: procedure to do so, whereas things like the Ghost Hunters,

437
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: they leap to a conclusion without necessarily having the proof

438
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: to back it up, and then they're looking they're kind

439
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: of looking for the proof after the conclusion, or they're

440
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: taking anything that happens as some sort of evidence for

441
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: the conclusion they've already arrived at. But that's more fun.

442
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, it's a good note on the

443
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: table between us. But I think I think that's the point.

444
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: I think that's the point of doing all of this stuff,

445
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: is that you know, they like to go out and

446
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: investigating and they're hoping that they'll find something, and some

447
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: of them just make a lot of money. There are

448
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: people who depend upon this kind of belief system in

449
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: order to make a living, and some of them are

450
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: true believers and some of them are not and it

451
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to the ones who are not Actually, you know,

452
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: the ones who don't believe in it, they don't care that,

453
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, there may or may not be anything to it. Um.

454
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: Before we sign off on this, this whole thing, we

455
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: should also probably talk about photography and orbs. Are you

456
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: familiar with the whole orb phenomenon, The glowing balls and

457
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: supposedly indicate that there is a spirit present um. Actually,

458
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: what it really indicates is just a bad flash. It

459
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: turns out digital cameras have the flash located a little

460
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: too close to the lens. That's why you hardly ever

461
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: see any kind of orbs in a professional photograph. Because

462
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: professional photographers keep the flash well away from the lens,

463
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: you don't tend to get this weird um orb effect

464
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: which often it's not always, but often caused by the

465
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: flash reflecting off of something in the photo, whether it's

466
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: a reflective surface or dust or water vapor um, the

467
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: flash tends to reflect the light is bouncing back at

468
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: the lens and it shows up as an ORB in

469
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: the photo. Also lens flare. That's the other really big

470
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: common cause of these orbs. It's not necessarily that uh,

471
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, the the your ancient ancestor is trying to

472
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: make contact with you. It's that your digital camera kind

473
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:48,239
Speaker 1: of sucks. Okay, so uh And people might say, well,

474
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: why why is it blurred? Well, that's probably because we

475
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: don't tend to hold still very well. Whenever you're taking

476
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: a photo of your shutter speed is is fairly slow.

477
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: Then Uh, even though the flashes on and off in

478
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: a second, the fact that your hands are moving while

479
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: the cameras taking the photo can cause a blurring effect.

480
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: And that's why some of them aren't perfect orbs. They

481
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: just look like a little blurry motion. Um. And there

482
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: are other things that can happen as well. I've seen

483
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: video tape where people said, look, this must be some

484
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 1: sort of ghost. You see the form that passed in

485
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: front of the There was one of a gas station

486
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: or it looked like a weird blue form passed in

487
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: front of the the the the the gas dispensers, and

488
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking, um, no, that actually was probably a

489
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: bug that was on the lens of the camera. And uh,

490
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: as soon as I thought that, I started to do

491
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: some research, and I started looking at other people who

492
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: were really good at at analyzing video, and that seemed

493
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: to be the prevalent theory that there was something on

494
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: the actual camera lens, and so it made it look

495
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: like it was much larger than it was, and it

496
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: made it look like it was passing in front of

497
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: the background as opposed to the foreground. So, uh, there's

498
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: lots of ways that are our brains will trick us

499
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: into thinking we've seen or heard or experience something that

500
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: may not be the case. Well, I think until until

501
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: people get more scientific, they'll probably continue messing around with it. Yeah,

502
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: I just I think of it as someone who just

503
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: grabs a bunch of unrelated tools and they don't understand

504
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: really what they're meant for, and they're using them for

505
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: something totally different, and they think that that's somehow valid um.

506
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: And again, someone may go out there today and prove

507
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: definitively the ghosts exist and that they just they exhibit

508
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: certain behaviors, but to this date, they have not done that,

509
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: and it's more like just people flailing around arguing that

510
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: they're their methods are valid without any any way of

511
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: backing it up. Which is why I go berserk, because

512
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: there's just there's so much money being made out there

513
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: by these people that it's just not we could be

514
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: putting that that effort, that thought into actual science. That

515
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: would be great. And that was the classic episode of

516
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: tech Stuff about ghost hunting technology. Now I want to

517
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: say a few more things before we sign off, because,

518
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: as I recall, I actually haven't listened to this rerun.

519
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: I find it hard to listen to myself. I remember

520
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: doing this episode even ten years ago, but I also

521
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: remember getting kind of head up about it. So I

522
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: want to clear a few things up first. I want

523
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: to say I happen to love ghost stories. I think

524
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: they can be really fascinating and genuinely creepy. When I

525
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: was in school, I checked out every single book in

526
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: the library about ghosts and you know, spooky folklore. And

527
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: some of my favorite movies are ghost story movies, like

528
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: The Changeling that was a film from nineteen eighty. It's

529
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: one I really love, despite the fact that the third

530
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: act goes off the rails. Uh. I love the sixth sense,

531
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: I even love the others. One of my favorite things

532
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: to watch right now are let's play videos of people

533
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: playing a game called phasma Phobia. And in that game,

534
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: you play as a ghost hunter. You use some of

535
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: the technology we mentioned in this episode to try and

536
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: track down and identify ghosts. It looks like it's great fun. Sadly,

537
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: it looks like it's also best played with groups of friends,

538
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: and that would mean I need to convince friends to

539
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: play with me. But that's my own, you know, burden

540
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: to bear. But in all these cases we're talking about

541
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: works of fiction or folklore. It's it's no more real

542
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: than a fairy tale or a vampire story. So I

543
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: think you can enjoy spooky stuff while also remaining skeptical

544
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: of real world manifestations of that spooky stuff. I can

545
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: enjoy a horror game or a movie without leaping to

546
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: the conclusion that there are real world ghosts out there.

547
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: I certainly haven't seen anything remotely coming close to actual

548
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: evidence that ghosts exist, or that the phenomena that's been

549
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: observed to be ghosts can't be explained by a more

550
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: mundane cause. Heck, I don't think you can even say

551
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: that if such a thing as ghostly activity exists, I

552
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: don't think you can necessarily link that to the concept

553
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: of a ghost, as in an entity that represents a

554
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: dead person. None of that is all I mean, it's

555
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: just fantasy. There's no science behind it, So have a

556
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: happy Halloween, you know, enjoy some spooky entertainment, but be

557
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: comforted that, as far as science has been able to determine,

558
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: ghosts are only within our own imaginations. So thank you

559
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: for listening. If you have anything you want to add

560
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: or you want me to cover in future episodes of

561
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: tech Stuff, let me know on Twitter. The handles Text

562
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Stuff hs W, I'll talk to you again really soon,

563
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: and Pleasant Nightmare is Happy Helloween. Text Stuff is an

564
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,

565
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

566
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.