WEBVTT - Designing a Clubhouse

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my ball in a bride Egg

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<v Speaker 1>Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Frida Egg Egg,

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<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg, Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run

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<v Speaker 1>off of the hump course. Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Garrett Morrison, and today we're talking about the architecture

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<v Speaker 1>of golf clubhouses. My guest is Alex war who's a

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<v Speaker 1>designer and digital artist with a degree in architecture from

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<v Speaker 1>the University of Texas, and he is the lead designer

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<v Speaker 1>of the clubhouse at the Tree Farm, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>new golf course project in Aiken, South Carolina, headed up

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<v Speaker 1>by the PGA tour pro Zach Blair. If you've been

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<v Speaker 1>following The Friday Egg for a while, you've probably heard

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<v Speaker 1>about the Tree Farm. Tom Doak routed the course, Kai

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<v Speaker 1>Goldby designed and built the holes, and based on the

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<v Speaker 1>photos that Andy Johnson just took there, it's all starting

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<v Speaker 1>to look pretty cool. So I'm excited to pick Alex's

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<v Speaker 1>brain about the Tree Farm project, but also more generally

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<v Speaker 1>about the way that clubhouses are designed. I think there's

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<v Speaker 1>probably something that we as fans of golf architecture can

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<v Speaker 1>learn from building architecture. There's a lot of differences between

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<v Speaker 1>the two, obviously, but also some significant similarities. And Alex,

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<v Speaker 1>as someone who designed structures for a living and likes

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<v Speaker 1>to geek out about golf courses, is the ideal person

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<v Speaker 1>to put those two subjects together. So with that, here

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<v Speaker 1>is Alex war. So Alex War, why don't we start

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<v Speaker 1>with some storytelling. How did you get involved with the

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<v Speaker 1>tree Farm project?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a funny story to tell on this podcast too,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think really part of it starts with this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>After finishing architecture school, I graduated, moved to Houston, and

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<v Speaker 2>started to play golf again after putting the clubs away

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<v Speaker 2>for about five years, and in that time found podcasts

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<v Speaker 2>like The frieda Egg and No Laying Up. That's how

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<v Speaker 2>I found out about Zach Blair and the Buck Club

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<v Speaker 2>and TBC and all of that. Started to follow along

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<v Speaker 2>and learn about golf course architecture for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I thought, how cool that this guy is really

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<v Speaker 2>trying to build something. He and I are similar ages,

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, as I got deeper into understanding golf

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<v Speaker 2>course architecture. I realized there was a lot of overlap

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<v Speaker 2>between what we do in the world of building architecture

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<v Speaker 2>and golf course architecture. So essentially I twitter DM Zach

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<v Speaker 2>one time when he was asking if anybody wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>get involved, and we hit it off and I just said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I would love to be involved helping you think about

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the buildings at the same level that you

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about the golf course, so that it's this totally

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<v Speaker 2>holistic experience. And so that was maybe twenty eighteen, twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>late twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and then here we are,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, breaking ground on the tree farm in the

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<v Speaker 2>next couple of months. So a wild ride.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're now twenty nine or thirty.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, twenty nine, yeah, twenty nine.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So if this was a few years ago, you

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<v Speaker 1>were pretty young when you just pitched Zach Blair on this.

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<v Speaker 1>What what kind of experience did you have that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of made you confident, I can you know, execute

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<v Speaker 1>the design of a clubhouse or some golf buildings.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was probably an irrational confidence at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was twenty five when we met. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think what I brought to the table

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<v Speaker 2>was a golf background that I just felt like what

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<v Speaker 2>I had learned in school in my professional experience today,

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<v Speaker 2>which was not a ton but I had had various

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<v Speaker 2>internships and was working at a firm here in Houston,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, people always ask me, like, what do

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<v Speaker 2>you specialize in? And my goal in school and in

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<v Speaker 2>professional life was never to specialize, Like the beauty of

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<v Speaker 2>architecture is like it's a way of thinking and problem solving.

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<v Speaker 2>And so then I always thought, you know, when I

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<v Speaker 2>learned about sex project, I thought I would love to

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<v Speaker 2>do a clubhouse, Like it's a marriage of essentially my

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<v Speaker 2>two passions. And so I think my main confidence came

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<v Speaker 2>from knowing and having a strong golf IQ and golf

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<v Speaker 2>background and being able to say, I don't think that

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<v Speaker 2>that is normal within the world of architecture and essentially

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<v Speaker 2>tell him that I could I could bring an understanding

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<v Speaker 2>to both because I think I was looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>typology of a clubhouse as a whole and thinking that

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<v Speaker 2>they are these sort of surface level connections that are made.

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<v Speaker 2>But it becomes pretty evident that a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>times the buildings are not designed by golfers. They're designed

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<v Speaker 2>by people who understand golfers as like a concept or

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<v Speaker 2>they understand it on paper, but not necessarily like the

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<v Speaker 2>rich of history and tradition and flow of everything, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like you can learn that stuff, but there's like an experience,

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<v Speaker 2>especially to the buildings that are coming out now with

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<v Speaker 2>new developments, where it's almost like a rethink of the typology.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not building necessarily like a traditional country club clubhouse

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<v Speaker 2>at the Tree Farm, it's something that's new, right, Like

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<v Speaker 2>it's this sort of national membership golf trip, golf focused

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<v Speaker 2>almost resort where you're on site, but it's not it's

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<v Speaker 2>just golf focused, right. And so and my pitch to

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<v Speaker 2>him was not that I would be the best or

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<v Speaker 2>I would bring the best building, but that I would

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<v Speaker 2>bring a building that was about supporting the golf, because

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<v Speaker 2>the typology of a clubhouse has an interesting relationship to

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<v Speaker 2>golf in that golf can exist completely without it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a purely supporting role, but it can elevate the experience,

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<v Speaker 2>or it can be a non factor, or it can

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<v Speaker 2>sort of detract from the experience. And so the idea

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<v Speaker 2>is to produce something that's supporting in a way that

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<v Speaker 2>it elevates the experience.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about your initial pitch to Zach. What

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<v Speaker 1>type of clubhouse did you propose to him or were

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<v Speaker 1>you just sort of talking about ideas like we've been

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<v Speaker 1>talking about right now.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked about a few ideas, and then he had

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<v Speaker 2>a site in Utah that I kind of got a

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<v Speaker 2>little info on and found on Google Earth. And he

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<v Speaker 2>had a rough routing, and so I put together like

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<v Speaker 2>a schematic proposal essentially of some floorplanes and some diagrams

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<v Speaker 2>and some perspectives.

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<v Speaker 1>So and this was the Buck Club. This was the

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<v Speaker 1>Utah project.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this would have been twenty eighteen, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we had just been talking over Twitter, and I started

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<v Speaker 2>to do this work sort of in my free time

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, architects were like crazy and we never

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<v Speaker 2>turn it off. And I started to play golf in

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<v Speaker 2>my free time, but I used to just work in

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<v Speaker 2>my free time do like competitions or renderings or something.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is what I was doing my free time.

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<v Speaker 2>And I essentially put together a proposal that was pretty specific.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he didn't give me a program or anything

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<v Speaker 2>and say it needs to be this big or that,

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<v Speaker 2>but I just started to develop something of what a

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<v Speaker 2>modern clubhouse could look like, and modern in the sense

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<v Speaker 2>of just like contemporary thinking, not necessarily like modernism. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't all white and clean lines or something, but

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<v Speaker 2>just in the way that I was thinking about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and that really manifests itself in like a place based,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of site specific solution. That's what I what I

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<v Speaker 2>that's the work that I try to do, is like

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<v Speaker 2>it's not about a certain style, it's not about a

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<v Speaker 2>certain desire to impose something. It's about looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>place and responding and making something site specific. So the

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<v Speaker 2>building was sort of like this long, thin building that

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<v Speaker 2>bent in a few ways to talk to a few views,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was just a very simple, like gable shape

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<v Speaker 2>that resonated with some of the like barns in the area,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, but it isn't a barn. It's not about that.

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<v Speaker 2>It was sort of a familiar form. And then it

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<v Speaker 2>used you know, local stone or something like that. It

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<v Speaker 2>was like ideas like that that were architectural, but they

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<v Speaker 2>weren't and they were specific in that they are about

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<v Speaker 2>being resonant with place. But it wasn't like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't have a full CD set or something. It was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just some plans and some diagrams and a

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<v Speaker 2>few perspectives, and I drove to San Antonio and met

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<v Speaker 2>him at the Valero at that time. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what they call it now, but the PGA Tour event and.

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<v Speaker 1>It's at a different course now, but it's still the Valero. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>well maybe it's not a different course.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's at that resort. It was. It was so wild,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, because it had just been It was like

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<v Speaker 2>taking one of those online community Twitter relationships into the

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<v Speaker 2>real world. And it was also like me skipping work

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<v Speaker 2>to like drive over and hope he made the cut

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<v Speaker 2>to like present him with all this work I had done.

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<v Speaker 2>And to his credit, Zach like he's super sharp, and

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<v Speaker 2>he like totally got the parallels between designing a good

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<v Speaker 2>golful and designing a good building and how they should

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<v Speaker 2>both sort of respond to place and land and how

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<v Speaker 2>the thinking is very similar. And you know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if he was thinking about that before meeting me,

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<v Speaker 2>but after meeting me, he was like, for sure, that's

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<v Speaker 2>what we should do. Like you're kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>let's go on this ride together, and you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>credit to him. It was a few years later, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>when we're like actually starting a project, but just a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of credit to him, because, you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it would have made a lot of people more comfortable,

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<v Speaker 2>and it made potentially more sense to hire somebody else

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<v Speaker 2>with older and more experience. But I think he and

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<v Speaker 2>I had this sort of special relationship where we're we're

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<v Speaker 2>both saying, look, we're young, and we love this, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll pour our life into it. You know, I could.

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<v Speaker 2>I could tell him that I will bring the same

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<v Speaker 2>level of dedication and passion that you have to the

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<v Speaker 2>course to the buildings, you know, and I think he

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<v Speaker 2>may have even exceeded his dedication to the course on

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<v Speaker 2>the buildings. He and I. He and I talk a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>so we've had a really great time working together.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about the buildings that you ended up

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<v Speaker 1>designing at the tree Farm. I know it's hard to

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<v Speaker 1>put this into words, that it's a lot more efficient

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<v Speaker 1>to look at pictures, and there are some pictures available,

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<v Speaker 1>But how would you describe these buildings in words?

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<v Speaker 2>In very plain words, I would describe them as simple, humble,

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<v Speaker 2>regional and site specific. More complicated words, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>buildings are they look familiar to people. And so the

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<v Speaker 2>idea again going back to like resonating with something, and

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<v Speaker 2>Zach had pretty strong desires on what he wanted and

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<v Speaker 2>it was simple and humble and things like That's we're

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<v Speaker 2>very much on the same page from the beginning. But

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<v Speaker 2>the buildings turned into low country South Carolina buildings. So

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<v Speaker 2>looking at the rich history of the typology where clubhouses

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<v Speaker 2>started as homes essentially farmhouses, and then the first clubhouse

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<v Speaker 2>at Shinnecock was designed by a residential architect, right, So

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<v Speaker 2>it is about being an extension of the home. So

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<v Speaker 2>there's something there in terms of scale and form, and

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<v Speaker 2>then looking at climate and saying what are the design

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<v Speaker 2>strategies for this climate, what are the materials used in

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<v Speaker 2>the region, right, and so how do we put those

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<v Speaker 2>things together? And so the buildings are really simple, sort

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<v Speaker 2>of humble gable shapes with wood siding and deep overhangs

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<v Speaker 2>and brick walkways. And someone may say, you know, oh

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<v Speaker 2>that looks like a sawmill, or it looks like a

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<v Speaker 2>barn or something, And it's not about saying it is

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<v Speaker 2>a barn, that is a pro shop or something. It's

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<v Speaker 2>about using those you know, architectural characteristics of the region

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<v Speaker 2>to make something that is resonant with that, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>not and it's not a copy, it's not an imitation

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<v Speaker 2>of something. So and then in general the clubhouse is

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<v Speaker 2>quite unique because responding to the topography of the site

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<v Speaker 2>and the routing, the building got broken into three pieces

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, we wanted the bar grill to be

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<v Speaker 2>really close to the first team in the eighteenth with

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of ritual and the idea of viewing and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that. And then but we didn't want it

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<v Speaker 2>to be too imposing, and so there was a central

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<v Speaker 2>spine ridge line running through the property and the routing

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<v Speaker 2>was done right. So you work the way that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of these places are working now. It's not a

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<v Speaker 2>residential development or something, so you make the best golf

0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.800
<v Speaker 2>course first and then you work the buildings around that. Right.

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:24.760
<v Speaker 2>So I had a lot to respond to in terms

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.760
<v Speaker 2>of that, and so we knew we would arrive up

0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 2>on this ridge and there was a view over into

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.720
<v Speaker 2>this sort of bowl of golf looking at eighteen and one.

0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.000
<v Speaker 2>And then his routing with Tom one was a part three.

0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So there's a really unique opportunity there for the viewing

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.599
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. So just responding to the topography

0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.760
<v Speaker 2>of up on the ridge and getting down to near

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.240
<v Speaker 2>the first te you know, there was this little natural

0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.680
<v Speaker 2>finger of topography. So the building turned into this sort

0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.839
<v Speaker 2>of peace sign shape, which in architecture you don't want

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.559
<v Speaker 2>to make triangles very you know, we don't do well

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>with triangles. And so in the center of that, instead

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:03.880
<v Speaker 2>of dealing with these sort of you know, simple but

0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.960
<v Speaker 2>complicated geometries, we just decided what if we created sort

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 2>of like a courtyard or cloister and broke the build

0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>the building a part where now it's three separate structures,

0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and so one is sort of the arrival in men's

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.440
<v Speaker 2>locker room, one is the bar grill and the women's

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:19.800
<v Speaker 2>locker room, and one is the golf operations, the pro

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>shop and things, and they sort of gather around this courtyard,

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>but they're all related to each other in just very

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.200
<v Speaker 2>simple buildings. So maybe that was a lot of words

0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.080
<v Speaker 2>in the end, but hopefully.

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of interesting stuff in there. So, first

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 1>of all, a really specific thing, why don't building architects

0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:37.960
<v Speaker 1>do well with triangles? What's the problem with triangles?

0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's just a sort of like complicated like spatial

0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, shape and plan, like try to put a

0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.319
<v Speaker 2>chair in the corner of a wedge, you know, things

0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.400
<v Speaker 2>like that. So if you make those spaces in plan,

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 2>usually we like you try to reserve them for sort

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 2>of back of house like whether that be mechanical or something,

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.240
<v Speaker 2>you know. But what was interesting about this was like

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>it was right at the heart of the building, right,

0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 2>So there's this weird intersection of three gables almost right

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:10.439
<v Speaker 2>at the heart of the building. And we could have

0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 2>made like a big atrium or like lobby, right, and

0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 2>who cares what shape that is, But that wasn't really

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.280
<v Speaker 2>like that's not in the program of this place. You know.

0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.800
<v Speaker 2>There isn't like this idea about this grand entry or

0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.640
<v Speaker 2>this grand you know, dining room or anything. It's like

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.080
<v Speaker 2>much more humble and simple than that. And we didn't

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 2>want to put all the services at the center of

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the building. And so what we decided, right, we actually

0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 2>put now the landscape at the center of the building

0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 2>by making it into an next to your feature, right,

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 2>so you bring the landscape into the building, and the

0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.760
<v Speaker 2>building is really sort of about viewing the landscape, right,

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.280
<v Speaker 2>whether that be the natural landscape or the golf right

0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 2>and sort of dissolving that experience between indoor and outdoor.

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.400
<v Speaker 1>So it seems like the architecture of the buildings here

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.880
<v Speaker 1>has a lot to do with the architecture of the

0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.960
<v Speaker 1>golf course, because we know that, you know, Tom Doak,

0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 1>who routed the course, and Ky Golby, who designed and

0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.600
<v Speaker 1>built many aspects of the course, are place based architects

0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 1>in their own right right, their golf courses are responsive

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.720
<v Speaker 1>to the land, And so was that an important correspondence

0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.080
<v Speaker 1>to make the buildings kind of blend with the style

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 1>of architecture that you saw out.

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.640
<v Speaker 2>On the course one hundred percent? And that's why I

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>felt back in twenty seventeen learning about Tom's work and

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.960
<v Speaker 2>people like that for the first time, and you know,

0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Bill and Ben and Gil like via the fried Egg

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.680
<v Speaker 2>essentially like I thought, Wow, there's a massive resonance here

0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.880
<v Speaker 2>between the work that I do in terms of building

0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>architecture and the golf and so why would these things

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 2>not merge perfectly together, right and elevate that experience that

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>was I mean, that was so crucial and essentially that

0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 2>relationship is what made the light bulb go off in

0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 2>my head to you know, reach out to Zach and say,

0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a supernatural fit here and it is very much

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 2>responding to the place, but also the golf course. Right,

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.800
<v Speaker 2>So the arrival view at the tree farm instead of

0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.640
<v Speaker 2>this grand lobby, if I could just try to describe

0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.400
<v Speaker 2>it and where it's You're up on the ridge a

0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>little higher than one green actually, and eighteen is down below.

0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>You can't see it the building. You're on the north side.

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 2>It's actually quite stark to your arrival the building itself,

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.320
<v Speaker 2>but there's a dog trot breezeway that frames like perfectly

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.480
<v Speaker 2>the first view or the first green of view of

0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 2>the first green. So when you arrive, the sort of

0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.480
<v Speaker 2>architecture itself is saying like, look at that, you know,

0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and I'm here to support that and frame that, and

0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 2>really it's about that the golf you know. So it

0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>was crucial to the thinking, just the overlap between that

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and it was. It was awesome to work with Kai

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.200
<v Speaker 2>and Tom. And I remember meeting Kai out there when

0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.480
<v Speaker 2>they were finalizing the routing and he kind of asked, oh,

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.280
<v Speaker 2>do you do a lot of work on sites you

0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>know as nice as this, And I was like, no way, man,

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.000
<v Speaker 2>live in Houston, Like nothing is sacred here and here

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 2>we are in like an idyllic pine forest, sandy landscape.

0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is the dream. And then he sort

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.200
<v Speaker 2>of said something interesting where he was like, I don't

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 2>know if I've ever met one of the building architects

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 2>on a project I've worked on, And I was like,

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 2>how is there not this like rich intertwining collaboration, you know,

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>And maybe Tom had met them or something. But and

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.720
<v Speaker 2>if you look at most clubhouses, I think by most

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:30.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's a broad generalization, but there isn't much collaboration, right,

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 2>but there is a rich history of it. Like Wingfoot,

0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.800
<v Speaker 2>there was a strong collaboration between Tillinghouse and the architect

0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>and so it's sort of carrying on that tradition, right.

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, I'm thinking about some of the ways in

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 1>which clubhouse buildings can be place based, and the tree

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.120
<v Speaker 1>farm is the example we're working with right now. You've

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.840
<v Speaker 1>said a few things about the landscape of the tree farm,

0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.639
<v Speaker 1>So maybe just make a couple of connections for me

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:05.159
<v Speaker 1>between that landscape, that specific kind of biome, and the

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 1>shapes that you created in the buildings. You know, one

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.720
<v Speaker 1>way in which golf architects can make a golf course.

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.919
<v Speaker 1>Blend with the environment is to make the artificial shapes

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 1>look like natural shapes or have some kind of interface

0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>between you know, the esthetics the way that things are

0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.719
<v Speaker 1>shaped and the way that things in the environment are

0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.159
<v Speaker 1>naturally shaped. So that's one way, and I guess another

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.920
<v Speaker 1>way would be materials in the building, like the kinds

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.480
<v Speaker 1>of wood and stuff like that. So maybe speak to

0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.960
<v Speaker 1>some of those links. How did you try to make

0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.159
<v Speaker 1>everything that you were building in the buildings match with

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the environment?

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, great point, And I think for us as architects,

0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:54.119
<v Speaker 2>we often look at things like form, material, scale, climate,

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, all those things play into it. So for example, gables,

0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.119
<v Speaker 2>shed water, Well, you don't need a gable in the desert.

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.360
<v Speaker 2>That's why you see flat roofs in the desert. There's

0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.159
<v Speaker 2>no rain. So there's like looking at all these things

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.119
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to landscape and region. So at the

0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 2>tree Farm, a few things that come to mind, just

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 2>the simple sort of vernacular gable shapes, from barns to

0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.960
<v Speaker 2>houses to sawmills, things like that. You know, it's called

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 2>the tree farm. It's pretty direct connection there. The siding

0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.760
<v Speaker 2>is actually going to be a cedar just because performance wise,

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 2>it holds up better than pine as next year's siding,

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.600
<v Speaker 2>But there is a resonance there, right, obviously wood and wood.

0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.720
<v Speaker 2>We're not importing like some Italian travertine stones and things

0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.440
<v Speaker 2>like that, right, We're like using materials that resonate with

0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.560
<v Speaker 2>the place. And the siding will be stained to be

0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.199
<v Speaker 2>the sort of dark patina that you know, cliche, but

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.840
<v Speaker 2>resonates with sort of pine tree bark or something. And

0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the buildings, you know, that's a specific choice though, to

0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of like try to make them fade into the background, right,

0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.600
<v Speaker 2>instead of of painting them white. You know, we have

0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Augusta National down the road. We could have said, oh,

0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.080
<v Speaker 2>let's build Augusta Nationals cladhouse, but it wasn't about that, right,

0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.200
<v Speaker 2>It was about sort of making them fade into the background.

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 2>The site was mined a bit and used as a

0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 2>dump site at one point for clay and brick mining.

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.040
<v Speaker 2>So there's a rich history of brick in the Carolinas,

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.879
<v Speaker 2>of course, especially as walkways, and so we are leaning

0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>into that. There are no real hallways in the project.

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.920
<v Speaker 2>We tried to minimize hallway square footage, and so all

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.399
<v Speaker 2>the circulation is outside under these deep overhangs. Which is

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.639
<v Speaker 2>a hot, humid regional thing. So that's material form. I'm

0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.240
<v Speaker 2>trying to think of what else. Oh, in the cabins themselves.

0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.600
<v Speaker 2>There will be four on side cabins in Phase one.

0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And actually it's quite funny. I found an ach and

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:52.600
<v Speaker 2>there's a huge horse culture, right, so horse races and

0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 2>horse breeding, and with horses come stables. And not to

0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:01.800
<v Speaker 2>say that the cabins are stables, but there's a very

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 2>similar scale building in terms of with and shape their

0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.880
<v Speaker 2>little l's or Jay's now the cabins and their exterior

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 2>walkways and you go directly into a room, and that's

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.120
<v Speaker 2>very much like essentially a stable, right, It's like these

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 2>really simple buildings that have exterior circulation and the horses

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.159
<v Speaker 2>go straight into their room. So I'm not making comparison

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.600
<v Speaker 2>between members and guests that horses, but you know, it is,

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.280
<v Speaker 2>it is. It is a scale of building and a

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.240
<v Speaker 2>sort of plan shape and even a functional functionality way

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.240
<v Speaker 2>that resonates with that. And it won't come to mind

0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 2>necessarily because you know it's not you know, not to

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 2>throw shade, but like say Forest Creek, they're famous for

0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.600
<v Speaker 2>their locker room, and it is like screaming at you,

0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I am a stable. Like each of the little areas

0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.880
<v Speaker 2>has the whole horse like things and all that, and

0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.520
<v Speaker 2>like these fake barn doors. You know, we're not doing

0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.400
<v Speaker 2>any of that. We're not yelling at you. I am

0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.360
<v Speaker 2>a stable. But it's like hopefully you sort of understand,

0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.560
<v Speaker 2>and it just feels of the place because those buildings

0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:09.479
<v Speaker 2>exist in the region.

0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 1>So it's more it's more of a hint than an

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:14.400
<v Speaker 1>exact illusion, I.

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Guess, right, because it's not about appropriating something that isn't

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.920
<v Speaker 2>what it is meant to be, right, Like architecture, buildings

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.119
<v Speaker 2>come out of a time, a place, a culture, a

0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.720
<v Speaker 2>construction technology, and a specific need, right, and so to

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.160
<v Speaker 2>just imitate is sort of to cheat it in my opinion.

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:37.480
<v Speaker 2>And so, but it doesn't mean we can't look at history,

0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:40.639
<v Speaker 2>and you know, both the history of our discipline as

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.000
<v Speaker 2>well as the history of you know, everything in mine

0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.479
<v Speaker 2>sort of that richness for ways to resonate with it.

0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.919
<v Speaker 1>So, something that you've mentioned a couple of times is

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.480
<v Speaker 1>that it's fairly rare for a building architect to be

0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>interested in golf or to be interested in golf course architecture,

0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.280
<v Speaker 1>and that may be part of the reason why somebody

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.880
<v Speaker 1>like Kai hasn't really met a clubhouse architect on a project,

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.120
<v Speaker 1>because often those disciplines are really different and they're kind

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.560
<v Speaker 1>of aloof from each other just by the nature of

0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.160
<v Speaker 1>what the disciplines are and who the people are. I'm

0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 1>not really sure of the causes in fact, So what

0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:26.159
<v Speaker 1>do you think creates that divide between the larger architecture world,

0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 1>whether it's landscape architecture or building architecture or whatever and

0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 1>golf course architecture.

0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a good question and a difficult one, and

0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 2>that may be a false generalization, but it's been my experience,

0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 2>both in school and in the professional world.

0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Like sure, I mean, and this is something that I've

0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.879
<v Speaker 1>heard elsewhere too. This is not the first time I've

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 1>heard someone in the business of architecture allude to a

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 1>bit of an awkwardness or a gap between the practice

0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.639
<v Speaker 1>of golf architecture and other kinds of design and architecture.

0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's funny, like because I don't even know, and

0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.080
<v Speaker 2>this is speaking to my you know, lack of lack

0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:10.919
<v Speaker 2>of knowledge. But like if you have to go to

0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.040
<v Speaker 2>landscape architecture school to become a building architect, I don't know.

0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how many have done that. I know

0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.719
<v Speaker 2>you could do it, but I know that in my

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:24.000
<v Speaker 2>experience with schools, if you went to the landscape architecture

0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:26.600
<v Speaker 2>program said I want to design golf courses, you wouldn't

0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.679
<v Speaker 2>get studios that let you do that. You would design

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 2>parks and public spaces and you know, other things, and

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:37.119
<v Speaker 2>then you could maybe design golf courses after you graduated.

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.040
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know of any schools that are sort

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 2>of doing that in practice. And that's how our schooling works,

0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:48.199
<v Speaker 2>right Like I had five years, ten semesters, ten design studios,

0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:52.159
<v Speaker 2>and you essentially design a building every semester, and landscape

0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:54.680
<v Speaker 2>is the same. And I never saw a single golf

0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 2>course project, you know. But I can tell you what

0:24:56.800 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>I did see ut which was master planning and urban

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.119
<v Speaker 2>design projects that we're rethinking what Lions municipal could be

0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:08.280
<v Speaker 2>if not a golf course, this is super valuable land,

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.040
<v Speaker 2>how can we develop it? In hindsight, I sort of

0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 2>wish I had taken the studio and said, you guys

0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 2>should hire Bill and Ben to just restore it, and

0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to do anything to it, you know,

0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 2>But that's not the view. I would say in most schools.

0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:22.439
<v Speaker 2>And I think that speaks to something which is like

0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 2>the really surface level understanding of golf. And maybe it's

0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:32.680
<v Speaker 2>golf in America specifically, where it's something that is upper class,

0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:38.560
<v Speaker 2>it's private, it's inefficient use of land in a time

0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of people moving to cities in density. Right, like the

0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:46.160
<v Speaker 2>surface level understanding, and the current American model that's dominating

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the golf landscape is either real estate development or private

0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:52.960
<v Speaker 2>club or both. And so I think that that has

0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:57.119
<v Speaker 2>led to sort of a disdain within architecture itself for

0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>the typology of a golf course. And then you know

0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>there's sustainability questions at a surface level understanding of it too.

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:08.199
<v Speaker 2>It's like super inefficient use of water. Right, what's the

0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 2>golf course that most people know that don't follow golf much?

0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Augusta National, I would say, right, which is that's how

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 2>we got some bad golf. Development is looking at that

0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 2>and saying this is what every place needs to be,

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and that's just not the case. Right, Like the Masters

0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:29.359
<v Speaker 2>in Augusta obviously unbelievable, but like again specific for one

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.480
<v Speaker 2>time place and sort of event, right, it's not that

0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:35.720
<v Speaker 2>that needs to be imitated everywhere, but people who don't

0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 2>know golf deeply would probably think that and say that's

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:42.040
<v Speaker 2>an unrealistic expectation, what a waste of resources land, et cetera.

0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because I'm not interested in building something like Augusta National.

0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:48.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm not interested in golf at all.

0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.879
<v Speaker 2>It's also super time consuming to play. It's hard that

0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 2>barrier to entry is high. You know, as architects, we

0:26:55.880 --> 0:27:00.160
<v Speaker 2>don't have a lot of time. Usually not I I'm

0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:04.280
<v Speaker 2>happy to marry my professional and professional life and hobby

0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.399
<v Speaker 2>so that I can do more at golfing, which has

0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:09.159
<v Speaker 2>been great. But I mean, you know, there are a

0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of barriers to golf, and I would say a

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of the ones that are normal, you know for

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 2>non architects are probably also barriers for architects themselves.

0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.439
<v Speaker 1>And those are all understandable. But it's not hard to

0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:28.000
<v Speaker 1>see how this divide between the larger profession of architecture

0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:32.960
<v Speaker 1>and golf courses and golf course architecture might create some

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:36.959
<v Speaker 1>problems if a building architect is hired to build a clubhouse,

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:39.640
<v Speaker 1>right because if the building architect is not at all

0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>interested in the golf, then that might create some issues

0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 1>with the design of the clubhouse and is that something

0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:51.199
<v Speaker 1>that you've seen without being specific about particular clubhouses, do

0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.719
<v Speaker 1>you often see clubhouses that just don't seem to be

0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:59.119
<v Speaker 1>related to the golf course at all and therefore feel

0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of alien from it.

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would say yes, you know, and I think

0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:07.439
<v Speaker 2>anybody who's listening to this can probably think back to

0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>your let's say, very typical golf course development, and it

0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:14.639
<v Speaker 2>probably doesn't have a clubhouse that's super resonant and talking

0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:17.680
<v Speaker 2>to the golf. Maybe it has a patio that overlooks

0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:21.240
<v Speaker 2>the eighteenth, but it's probably pretty far away. It's not

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.399
<v Speaker 2>as close as the old clubhouses that really nailed this

0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, like Wingfoot or Pinehurst, Right, those were

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:32.240
<v Speaker 2>built in a different era, And so with modern construction

0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:36.679
<v Speaker 2>has come complications with modern real estate development, with modern

0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:41.520
<v Speaker 2>development in general, right, where you don't necessarily want to

0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:45.000
<v Speaker 2>mix the two because it costs more and it's more complicated. Right.

0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:48.280
<v Speaker 2>There's sort of this surface level relationship I think that

0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:51.080
<v Speaker 2>you see in most which is just of view, right,

0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>And that's that's great to provide, but it doesn't begin

0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.240
<v Speaker 2>it in there, right. The scale of it actually matters

0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:59.760
<v Speaker 2>how far away you are, what can you actually see

0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.400
<v Speaker 2>is it a vista? Can you see putts go in?

0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Just that kind of thing, And then I'd say, yeah,

0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:11.000
<v Speaker 2>the other really difficult thing is like parking and just

0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 2>all the infrastructure that even I starting this journey with

0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Zach was like totally unaware of how difficult it would

0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>be to get a clubhouse like within forty feet of

0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:25.480
<v Speaker 2>the eighteenth Green. You know, it's like it's not easy,

0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:29.520
<v Speaker 2>And in hindsight, I'm thinking, Okay, now, I definitely get

0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 2>why not a lot of people try this, But I think,

0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, hopefully it pays off in the actual experience

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:37.160
<v Speaker 2>of the place in the long run.

0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.320
<v Speaker 1>This episode of the Fridagg Podcast is brought to you

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 1>by USGA Memberships. We all know the USGA for things

0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:49.560
<v Speaker 1>like championships, rules and handicapping, but they are also the

0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:53.240
<v Speaker 1>biggest investor in golf's future. They do this through programs

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:56.720
<v Speaker 1>that help courses manage fuel, water and other resources, that

0:29:56.800 --> 0:29:59.560
<v Speaker 1>expand in your golf, and that make sure all communities

0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>have act to golf and feel welcome to play. This

0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:05.360
<v Speaker 1>is really important work and none of it would be

0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 1>possible without the support of USGA members. When you join

0:30:09.040 --> 0:30:11.880
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0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.240
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0:30:23.520 --> 0:30:26.640
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0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.200
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0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:31.960
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0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:35.560
<v Speaker 1>dot org, slash join and click the button that says gift.

0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 1>All right, back to the episode. All right, Alex, So

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:44.760
<v Speaker 1>before we talked, I asked you to come up with

0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 1>a few different buildings that we could talk about as

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:52.880
<v Speaker 1>examples of interesting architecture. And maybe we could start with

0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:56.720
<v Speaker 1>buildings that are not golf clubhouses, just buildings that are

0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.240
<v Speaker 1>in cities that people might be able to go to

0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 1>and visit and look at and get something out of.

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:06.800
<v Speaker 1>So what's the first building that you came up with

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 1>that kind of fits this description.

0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'll say none of these are golf related. I

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 2>tried to pick a few major American cities and essentially,

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.400
<v Speaker 2>if I were visiting, what I would go see. It's interesting.

0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>There will be a lot of museums listed. I think

0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:25.320
<v Speaker 2>it's like a popular typology where world class architects are

0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:30.400
<v Speaker 2>hired right to design things. So I'll start with Houston,

0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:33.280
<v Speaker 2>where I live. If you come visit, you have to

0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:37.200
<v Speaker 2>go to the Manil Collection, which is a masterpiece little

0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:41.520
<v Speaker 2>museum open to the public and free, designed by Rinzo Piano.

0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:45.160
<v Speaker 2>He's an Italian architect who runs Rinzo Piano Building Workshop,

0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:48.560
<v Speaker 2>and he's he's in the category of what we would

0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:51.760
<v Speaker 2>call in the industry starchitects. You know, so all the

0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:52.280
<v Speaker 2>way at.

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 1>The top the top, haven't heard that before?

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 1>So does that mean like really bare bones, like really

0:31:58.720 --> 0:31:59.800
<v Speaker 1>stark that that's what?

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Nope, nope, nope, think movie think a movie star, Think.

0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh starket to Oh oh yeah, oh I see.

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:12.960
<v Speaker 2>So essentially the list of the top five ten people

0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:15.040
<v Speaker 2>in the world who always get the phone call for

0:32:15.120 --> 0:32:16.960
<v Speaker 2>extremely high profile projects.

0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:20.400
<v Speaker 1>But I see okay, okay, So essentially the Tom Doak,

0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:25.480
<v Speaker 1>that David of the building architecture world. Yeah, that's exactly

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:29.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to start calling them starchitects. Now, those golf.

0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Architects, don't tell them it came from me.

0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:32.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, okay, I want they won't. They won't

0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:33.760
<v Speaker 1>like that. At all.

0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 2>None of them will like that, I figured, so don't.

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:40.640
<v Speaker 2>It didn't. It didn't come from me. This is only

0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:44.760
<v Speaker 2>buildings that I'm talking about. So, but Renzo Piano now

0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:47.200
<v Speaker 2>a s architect. You know, it was popular when he

0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:49.920
<v Speaker 2>did the Manil Collection, but it's a very early piece

0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:52.360
<v Speaker 2>of his work. I think it was completed in ninety three,

0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:55.600
<v Speaker 2>and it's just an amazing museum and it has an

0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.560
<v Speaker 2>amazing modulation of light. So all the gallery ceilings are

0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>class but there's this intricate sort of louver system that

0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:06.880
<v Speaker 2>lets natural light in the building is in a neighborhood

0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:10.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's like perfectly to scale but perfectly sort of

0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:12.840
<v Speaker 2>grand at the same time, like it's not a home,

0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 2>but it's part of it, you know, part of the neighborhood.

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:18.680
<v Speaker 2>So that's just a must visit if you're in Houston

0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:22.480
<v Speaker 2>ford Worth. Though I'd be remiss if I didn't mention

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:26.280
<v Speaker 2>the Kimball Museum, which is designed by lu Khan. He's

0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:29.320
<v Speaker 2>one of the greatest American architects to ever live, and

0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:34.200
<v Speaker 2>again modulating light actually through these cycloidal vaults that are

0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:39.400
<v Speaker 2>these cast concrete vaulted spaces and just like maybe the

0:33:39.440 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 2>best building in Texas. It's so wonderful. Okay, So now

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I have Chicago, which is a massive black mark on

0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>my resume because I have never been the first one

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:53.800
<v Speaker 2>that comes to mind is Roby House, which is a

0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 2>franklind Right masterpiece residence. It's just like sort of height

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 2>of Frank's work in terms of residential architecture, and it's

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:09.440
<v Speaker 2>a simple sort of brick home, long, low slung, just

0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>like beautiful example of his like organic, prairie style and organic.

0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:18.560
<v Speaker 2>He was thinking about resonant with landscape in general, not

0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:21.440
<v Speaker 2>organic when we think of it as like blobby shapes

0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:25.200
<v Speaker 2>or things like that. Oh, here's a good one. Sorry,

0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:28.320
<v Speaker 2>this is for the shotgun start guys. The Apple Store

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 2>on Michigan Avenue is designed by Norman Foster, who is

0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:34.200
<v Speaker 2>also a starchitect who designed the Global Home. So for

0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 2>the pitching tour, yeah.

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:37.400
<v Speaker 1>There you go. Does this one have a moat?

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 2>And there's no moat? But Foster, honestly, Foster really good architect,

0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:47.280
<v Speaker 2>huge firm in London, I would say, starchitect, really clean

0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>work and does a lot of Apple stores. So Apple

0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Store on Michigan Avenue, that's a good one. Okay, we'll

0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.160
<v Speaker 2>go to New York a landscape. One place that I

0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:58.560
<v Speaker 2>would really love to go is Little Island recently opened.

0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:01.719
<v Speaker 2>It's like a peer I forget which peer number and

0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:04.960
<v Speaker 2>designed by Heatherwick Studio, who is an interesting guy who

0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:07.760
<v Speaker 2>is more of like a designer and has a studio

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:13.320
<v Speaker 2>not limited to architecture, so art, public installations, objects, architecture,

0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:15.879
<v Speaker 2>things like that, and this is like a really you know,

0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:19.680
<v Speaker 2>everyone can just google Little Island and you'll be like, WHOA,

0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty wild. It's sort of this like peer that

0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:24.960
<v Speaker 2>rises out of the water and each of the like

0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:28.480
<v Speaker 2>peer pylons sort of turns into almost like a like

0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:31.400
<v Speaker 2>a flowering shape that holds a landscape in it, and

0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:35.040
<v Speaker 2>they're all linked together and it's quite quite amazing. And

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:37.719
<v Speaker 2>then one really fun one that everybody can visit Prospect

0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:40.560
<v Speaker 2>Parks Skating Rink designed by Todd Williams and Billy Chen

0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:44.400
<v Speaker 2>really great husband wife duo doing really great work and

0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:47.000
<v Speaker 2>it's like a very fun building. It's a roller skating

0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:48.920
<v Speaker 2>rink in the summer and a nice skating rink in

0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the winter. Nice la The Emes Foundation, which is actually

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:58.360
<v Speaker 2>the home of Charleston ray Eames, great designers known for

0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:01.279
<v Speaker 2>their furniture a lot like the Eames chair, which is

0:36:01.320 --> 0:36:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a classic lounge furniture, so you can think mid century modern,

0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:08.120
<v Speaker 2>modular kind of home. And I believe it's open to

0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:12.160
<v Speaker 2>the public. San Francisco the De Young Museum designed by

0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Herzogen Demron. Really great Swiss architecture firm. Some of the

0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:20.560
<v Speaker 2>best in the world against architects. Everyone will a lot

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:22.880
<v Speaker 2>of people know them for the Birds Nest in Beijing,

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:25.480
<v Speaker 2>which was the main stadium at the Olympics in two

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:29.040
<v Speaker 2>thousand and eight or something I think, but really just

0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:34.560
<v Speaker 2>amazing firm, Herzogon Demron. And then my last stop is Austin, Texas,

0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:38.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going like pretty local here, so a very

0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:43.320
<v Speaker 2>small architecture firm that I know, And there's a Peace

0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Park tree house. It's in Peace Park which is on

0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Lamar west side of campus, and they designed this little

0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:55.120
<v Speaker 2>almost like playground structure that's just a little treehouse for

0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 2>kids for adults, and it's by mel Lawrence Architects. It's

0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:02.759
<v Speaker 2>just like a really wonderful, playful piece of architecture in

0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:04.960
<v Speaker 2>a park that anybody can use. And it's you know,

0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:07.840
<v Speaker 2>thinking at a very high level, and it's it's just

0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:09.320
<v Speaker 2>beautiful nice.

0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:14.000
<v Speaker 1>I love that. You know, maybe more importantly, if somebody,

0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:17.600
<v Speaker 1>if a golfer who may know something about golf course architecture,

0:37:18.480 --> 0:37:22.000
<v Speaker 1>goes to one of these buildings, what should they be noticing?

0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:25.120
<v Speaker 1>And I know that's like a super complicated question when

0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:28.280
<v Speaker 1>people ask me that question about golf courses. What should

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:31.759
<v Speaker 1>I be noticing and appreciating? When I'm trying to understand

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.640
<v Speaker 1>golf course architecture, I never know where to start, but

0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I have a few basic things, you know, standing on

0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:39.480
<v Speaker 1>the greens and looking back at the hole and trying

0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:41.680
<v Speaker 1>to figure out the strategy from there and seeing if

0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:45.640
<v Speaker 1>it fits. Looking at the tie ins between the artificial

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:47.640
<v Speaker 1>shapes of the golf course and the natural shapes of

0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:52.279
<v Speaker 1>the surroundings and seeing how those are working. Those kinds

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:55.480
<v Speaker 1>of specific things I often tell people, you know, that's

0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:57.839
<v Speaker 1>where to start when you want to appreciate a golf

0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:00.400
<v Speaker 1>course in the way it's designed. So what are some

0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:03.880
<v Speaker 1>similar things people should do if they're going to a

0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.400
<v Speaker 1>great building? What should they be noticing?

0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:10.399
<v Speaker 2>Let's start with tie ins, So looking at it and

0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:14.560
<v Speaker 2>saying is this responding to place in a way that

0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>the forms are similar, or is this like building operating

0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:23.000
<v Speaker 2>outside of its context. So is its context influential or

0:38:23.080 --> 0:38:25.239
<v Speaker 2>is it an object? You know, is it part of

0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>the fabric or is it a statement? Right? And sometimes

0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it does both. Say the Aqua Tower in Chicago that

0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>I talked about, that's responding to its wind context, right,

0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:38.600
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time it's creating something that is

0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:42.440
<v Speaker 2>quite a statement. So I would think about that and

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:45.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of ask yourself what the building is trying to

0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:50.200
<v Speaker 2>convey to you. Is it about being grand or is

0:38:50.239 --> 0:38:53.160
<v Speaker 2>it about you know, like essentially a golf club. In

0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the same way, like what is this course? What is

0:38:55.640 --> 0:38:59.520
<v Speaker 2>the philosophy? Does it feel fabricated? Does it feel natural?

0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Things like that, And then there's a lot of overlap

0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:07.719
<v Speaker 2>within golf course architecture, just thinking about scale, thinking about

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:12.680
<v Speaker 2>how it's made, thinking about threshold ideas, about threshold ideas

0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 2>of flow, like a good routing, what is the flow

0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:18.120
<v Speaker 2>of the space? A good one to always think about

0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:22.160
<v Speaker 2>is like natural light. A lot of like great buildings

0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:25.399
<v Speaker 2>deal with natural light in a really great way, and

0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:28.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bad buildings don't. And then you know,

0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:31.160
<v Speaker 2>I would say, does the building feel in terms of

0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:33.239
<v Speaker 2>like style, if you want to think about it like

0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:36.120
<v Speaker 2>that is it telling you that it is something it?

0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Is it a certain style and why or is it

0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:42.080
<v Speaker 2>not a certain style? And therefore, what is it trying

0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:44.239
<v Speaker 2>to be. That's like the way that I would think

0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:49.640
<v Speaker 2>about it. And then you said something that made me

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:51.719
<v Speaker 2>think of something else. But now I'm blinking, so I

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:52.759
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Maybe I have a follow up.

0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, I talked about tie ins, and I talked about

0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:57.920
<v Speaker 1>standing on greens and looking at strategy and seeing how.

0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:02.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, so very of standing on greens would be.

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:07.799
<v Speaker 2>Like it's it's very different. It's not about figuring out strategy.

0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 2>But one of the fun.

0:40:09.080 --> 0:40:12.080
<v Speaker 1>That's something that's unique about golf course architecture, by the way,

0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:14.520
<v Speaker 1>something that sets it apart is that this is a

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:18.480
<v Speaker 1>this is a game board in addition to being a

0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:21.399
<v Speaker 1>piece of sculpture or a piece of art. And that's

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:25.120
<v Speaker 1>something that kind of sets golf course architecture apart from

0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:28.080
<v Speaker 1>most forms of architecture. It's something I've often often thought of.

0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:30.120
<v Speaker 1>But I don't want to interrupt your train of thought.

0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:32.239
<v Speaker 1>What did the standing on greens make you think of?

0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:34.600
<v Speaker 2>It just made me think of like one of the

0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:39.160
<v Speaker 2>things that immediately makes me notice that a building might

0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:42.439
<v Speaker 2>be really dialed and cared for, is like what does

0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:45.359
<v Speaker 2>your hand touch first? So all the way down from

0:40:45.400 --> 0:40:49.279
<v Speaker 2>these big moves of like is it an object in

0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:51.480
<v Speaker 2>a landscape? Is it an object in a city? You know,

0:40:51.520 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 2>you can think about that scale, but like down to

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 2>the detail of like what is the door handle? How

0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:59.279
<v Speaker 2>does the door move? And if you notice, like a

0:40:59.320 --> 0:41:01.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of really good architects and a lot of really

0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:05.360
<v Speaker 2>good buildings, it's not your sort of standard introduction to

0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:09.759
<v Speaker 2>a building. So say Stephen Hall, who is a starchitect

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:14.600
<v Speaker 2>and has unlimited budgets. Essentially every entry door handle, essentially

0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:18.279
<v Speaker 2>is always a one off sort of designed object that

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:21.200
<v Speaker 2>is a riff on sort of the formal qualities or

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:23.600
<v Speaker 2>the diagram of the building. Right. And so it's like

0:41:24.000 --> 0:41:26.440
<v Speaker 2>that level of care and design can carry its way

0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.480
<v Speaker 2>all the way down to a door handle, right, And

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:33.440
<v Speaker 2>whether that's a simple door handle and it's about materiality

0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:37.720
<v Speaker 2>and patina, or if it's an overly designed, expensive door handle.

0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>That's sort of a cliche in architecture school is to

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:42.640
<v Speaker 2>think about the door handles.

0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:45.799
<v Speaker 1>Huh. I love that. I wonder what the equivalent in

0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:50.160
<v Speaker 1>golf courses is. It's like the the extreme level of detail.

0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:54.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, what are what are the individual Maybe I

0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:54.919
<v Speaker 1>don't know if.

0:41:56.920 --> 0:42:00.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but that's about but I mean speaking to Zach

0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:03.359
<v Speaker 2>and back to the tree farm, like we're crafting everything right,

0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:07.160
<v Speaker 2>like right, it's the golf course architect may not have

0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.480
<v Speaker 2>a say in that, but like all of those things,

0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and you've talked about this, I think previously. It's like

0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:16.480
<v Speaker 2>the benches, the signs, the flags, all those are like

0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:19.640
<v Speaker 2>designed objects that contribute to a feeling of place, right,

0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:22.960
<v Speaker 2>And so whether that's something that's just picked up off

0:42:23.000 --> 0:42:26.080
<v Speaker 2>the rack or it's like shaped and designed, all of

0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>that is contributing to the overall experience absolutely.

0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:32.040
<v Speaker 1>And I understand that not all golf courses have the

0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 1>budget to be as craft focused on everything that they

0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:37.680
<v Speaker 1>have on the golf course, and that that's, you know,

0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:42.600
<v Speaker 1>partly the result of you know, having a good budget

0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:45.440
<v Speaker 1>that you can pay attention to some of those things.

0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:47.439
<v Speaker 1>And in other cases it might be just as cheap

0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.320
<v Speaker 1>to do something lazily as it is to do something

0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.880
<v Speaker 1>a little more thoughtfully. But something that drives me crazy

0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:57.520
<v Speaker 1>sometimes on golf courses, aside from the cart paths, which

0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why people aren't thinking through where they're

0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:03.759
<v Speaker 1>putting cart paths or how they look. It's just such

0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.600
<v Speaker 1>a dominant feature of many golf courses. But a little

0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:11.240
<v Speaker 1>thing is like the ball washers. You know it always

0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:14.040
<v Speaker 1>everybody has the same ball washers and they're just like

0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:16.239
<v Speaker 1>studded throughout the golf course. And I'm like, do we

0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:19.200
<v Speaker 1>need all of these? Is this necessary? Can there be

0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:23.120
<v Speaker 1>a different way that people kind of have this function,

0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:26.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, clean their golf balls. That's just a little

0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:29.480
<v Speaker 1>thing that sometimes strikes me as like maybe that could

0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:32.120
<v Speaker 1>be thought through a little bit more well.

0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:35.560
<v Speaker 2>And if I could, that's like a system or supporting

0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.719
<v Speaker 2>like infrastructure. So the other another thing to look at

0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:42.160
<v Speaker 2>in really good buildings is like try to find the systems.

0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Where's the air coming from, how are the lights designed?

0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:46.200
<v Speaker 2>What's this is?

0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:47.600
<v Speaker 1>Like drainage in a golf course.

0:43:47.680 --> 0:43:50.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the drainage. It's the catch basins, where the

0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:53.160
<v Speaker 2>units are they like, you know, and I would say

0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.719
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the time these things are really lazily done,

0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, people operating at a very high level,

0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:05.440
<v Speaker 2>drawing every everything and trying to minimize the impact of

0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.440
<v Speaker 2>the systems. And you know, I don't have to tie

0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.719
<v Speaker 2>back to clubhouses. But that's been like the really like

0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the hardest thing about the Tree Farm is trying to

0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:16.319
<v Speaker 2>design like quite a robust commercial building at the end

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:20.000
<v Speaker 2>of the day into a residential scale project that's like

0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:23.279
<v Speaker 2>quite intimate and small, but at the same time, it's

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:27.840
<v Speaker 2>a commercial building that needs commercial grade materials, commercial grade systems.

0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.000
<v Speaker 2>It has a full nice restaurant, it's a retail shop,

0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:33.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, it has all these things. And so the

0:44:33.440 --> 0:44:37.520
<v Speaker 2>clubhouse is something that is kind of like a tricky

0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 2>one where you're trying to do a commercial building in

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:43.279
<v Speaker 2>a residential sort of scale and context. And that's not

0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.640
<v Speaker 2>true for all clubhouses. Some are not trying to be

0:44:45.680 --> 0:44:48.960
<v Speaker 2>residential and they shouldn't be. But systems is a good

0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:50.239
<v Speaker 2>one to look at.

0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:54.279
<v Speaker 1>So something that's really interesting about how you have made

0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 1>your way through your career and your interests is that

0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:02.040
<v Speaker 1>I believe you were interested in building architecture before you

0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.279
<v Speaker 1>were interested in golf course architecture. You played golf, but

0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:10.960
<v Speaker 1>you weren't necessarily connecting your longtime interest in architecture with

0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:13.799
<v Speaker 1>golf course architecture, and so you have kind of a

0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 1>unique perspective on what building architecture can bring to golf

0:45:19.080 --> 0:45:22.319
<v Speaker 1>course architecture. What kind of knowing a thing or two

0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:27.080
<v Speaker 1>about the way that buildings are designed can make you

0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:30.680
<v Speaker 1>notice when you're on a golf course. So what are

0:45:30.760 --> 0:45:32.879
<v Speaker 1>just like a couple of things that you think that

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:37.840
<v Speaker 1>an appreciation of building architecture can add to an appreciation

0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:39.239
<v Speaker 1>of golf course architecture.

0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:45.000
<v Speaker 2>My unique perspective is just seeing both sides almost, And

0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:46.800
<v Speaker 2>what I would hope that people are getting out of

0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:49.520
<v Speaker 2>the podcast is that a lot of the same thinking

0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:52.160
<v Speaker 2>on golf courses can be applied to buildings. And so

0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:55.279
<v Speaker 2>you take that and you think about the way that

0:45:55.840 --> 0:46:01.839
<v Speaker 2>as we say, verticals buildings instead of landscape, like they

0:46:01.880 --> 0:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>contribute or are talking to the experience at the golf course.

0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.600
<v Speaker 2>But also take that home with you, you know, and

0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 2>it's not realistic, and even I don't live in a

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.480
<v Speaker 2>home that I designed, and it's like, you know, we

0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>can't all have like perfect architecture all the time. But

0:46:17.480 --> 0:46:20.239
<v Speaker 2>you can take this knowledge and sort of look at

0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:22.880
<v Speaker 2>the built environment that you live and work in and

0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.640
<v Speaker 2>visit and sort of start to I would just challenge

0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:29.840
<v Speaker 2>people to like apply their golf course architecture hobby chops

0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:34.160
<v Speaker 2>to buildings and see where they get and see like

0:46:34.360 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a rich, rich culture right now right of appreciating

0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:41.600
<v Speaker 2>golf course architecture. And you know, we maybe live in

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:43.919
<v Speaker 2>the echo chamber of that being on a podcast about

0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:47.280
<v Speaker 2>golf course architecture essentially, but and there is a culture

0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:51.440
<v Speaker 2>of that on buildings as well, and so but there

0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:53.799
<v Speaker 2>isn't a lot of overlap, and I don't see why not,

0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and not to say that everyone has to be interested

0:46:56.320 --> 0:46:59.759
<v Speaker 2>in everything, right, there's a subculture for everything. But my

0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:02.920
<v Speaker 2>hope would be that some people just start to see

0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.720
<v Speaker 2>the built environment like they see golf courses and start

0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:09.440
<v Speaker 2>to care for more and understand that it's also crafted.

0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:12.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's an answer to your actual question, but.

0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:15.760
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great way to answer it, because

0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:19.160
<v Speaker 1>what you're saying essentially is take it the other way too.

0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:22.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, you went from building architecture to golf course architecture.

0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:26.239
<v Speaker 1>People listening to this podcast are likely to be a

0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:30.040
<v Speaker 1>little bit into golf course architecture at least. And you know,

0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:32.680
<v Speaker 1>when that part of your brain is turned on at

0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:36.440
<v Speaker 1>a golf course where you're trying to understand something or

0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:40.640
<v Speaker 1>enjoy something about the built environment, that you find yourself in.

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:43.080
<v Speaker 1>There's no reason not to take that to the next

0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:44.799
<v Speaker 1>airport that you land in. There are a lot of

0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:48.160
<v Speaker 1>airports that are beautifully built that just to have these

0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:55.000
<v Speaker 1>sort of outrageously fun shapes and kind of ideas in them,

0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 1>but people rarely are looking at them. They're at an airport,

0:47:59.000 --> 0:48:01.920
<v Speaker 1>they're getting to their flight, and so you know, just

0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:05.319
<v Speaker 1>as golf course, architecture can add a different dimension to

0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:08.359
<v Speaker 1>your golf life. I think that being attuned to all

0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:11.760
<v Speaker 1>forms of architecture as you're just walking through the world

0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:14.960
<v Speaker 1>can give you something to think about when you're bored,

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:16.239
<v Speaker 1>which is always good.

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that would be great if I could make two

0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:23.640
<v Speaker 2>book recommendations really quickly. That may may be better at

0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:26.240
<v Speaker 2>answering this question than I am, or just doing it

0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:30.720
<v Speaker 2>very on the nose. There's a book Thinking Architecture written

0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:34.960
<v Speaker 2>by Peter Zumthor, who is a Pritzker Prize winning architect

0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:40.879
<v Speaker 2>in Switzerland that's the highest award in architecture starchitect total starchitect.

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Most of his work is in Europe. But it's a

0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.160
<v Speaker 2>really simple book, really short. I give it to a

0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:49.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of people who are thinking about architecture for the

0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:53.959
<v Speaker 2>first time, super approachable, super readable, So that's like number

0:48:53.960 --> 0:48:55.960
<v Speaker 2>one on my list. And he has a second book

0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.959
<v Speaker 2>called Atmospheres, which is essentially just discussing how the built

0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:02.839
<v Speaker 2>environment creates atmospheres, which golf courses do the same. They're

0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:05.440
<v Speaker 2>part of the built environment. So those are my main

0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:07.360
<v Speaker 2>two book recommendations from the same author.

0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Excellent. Well that's a good place to wrap up, Alex.

0:49:10.800 --> 0:49:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your time today, and good

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:17.680
<v Speaker 1>luck with your future architecture. I hope to see more

0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:21.880
<v Speaker 1>clubhouses from you, but I'm looking forward to watching your

0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:22.840
<v Speaker 1>career as it goes along.

0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:24.680
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:27.960
<v Speaker 3>It was a great discussion and really cool to be,

0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:32.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, full circle to learning about Zach essentially to

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:35.279
<v Speaker 3>now working towards completing the project and coming on the pod.

0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:36.480
<v Speaker 2>So thanks a lot here.

0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:50.120
<v Speaker 1>This episode of the Frida Egg podcast was edited by

0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Meg Atkins. If you've been enjoying the pod, please leave

0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:55.719
<v Speaker 1>a rating and review on iTunes. We always like hearing

0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.120
<v Speaker 1>people's thoughts and feedback, and also those ratings and reviews

0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:02.319
<v Speaker 1>are a big way that we find new listeners. All right,

0:50:02.440 --> 0:50:04.560
<v Speaker 1>thanks for listening and we'll be back soon.