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Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy.

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Speaker 2: We forget the things that as little kids, that we

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Speaker 2: would hear from the safe people, the empathetic witnesses in

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Speaker 2: our lives. The mister Rogers on the TV who says,

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Speaker 2: you make this day a special day by just your

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Speaker 2: being you, and I like you just the way you are.

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Speaker 3: Well, I remember that.

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Speaker 2: I hear that, but I'm so tempted to forget it,

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Speaker 2: because then I have to be as a big grown up.

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Speaker 2: I have to go out in the world. And I

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Speaker 2: forgot what mister Rogers told me.

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Speaker 4: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 4: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 2: really live.

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Speaker 3: There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 3: no Internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 3: like everything is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, name Kat.

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Speaker 4: I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second, and

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Speaker 4: right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope

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Speaker 4: encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 4: and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 4: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 4: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat I am the host,

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Speaker 4: and before we get into today's episode, I want to

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Speaker 4: give a quick reminder that although I'm a therapist and

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Speaker 4: this podcast is called You Need Therapy, it does not

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Speaker 4: serve as a replacement or substitute for any actual mental

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Speaker 4: health services. But we always do hope that it helps you, guys,

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Speaker 4: wherever you are along whatever journey you are on.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 4: I am I don't even know the right word. I

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Speaker 4: want to say excited or thrilled, but it doesn't really

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Speaker 4: hit the mark. I think it's more of I feel lucky,

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Speaker 4: feel lucky and grateful to be able to share the

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Speaker 4: conversation I'm going to share with you today. It was

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Speaker 4: one that was interesting and thought provoking and healing for

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Speaker 4: me to have as a human being, and it was

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Speaker 4: also unexpected in that way. So we've been talking about

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Speaker 4: deconstruction on here. We've been bringing up some themes around that,

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Speaker 4: the ability for us to change our minds and to

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Speaker 4: use the information that we have now to make sense

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Speaker 4: of the world and what that means to us. And

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Speaker 4: so this episode comes in a timely manner because I

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Speaker 4: have a very special guest today talking about a very

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Speaker 4: special book that he has just written. And his name

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Speaker 4: is Jonathan Merritt. If you are unfamiliar with him, Jonathan

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Speaker 4: is an award winning columnist and commentator on politics, spirituality,

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Speaker 4: and culture. And he has been a contributing editor for

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Speaker 4: the Week and has been featured on The New York Times,

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Speaker 4: USSI Today, The Washington Post, Atlantic, CNN, like the list

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Speaker 4: goes on and on. And he is also just a

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Speaker 4: wonderful human. You know, there's those certain people that you

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Speaker 4: just feel like you can open up to and talk

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Speaker 4: to and since their energy is safe. That's really how

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Speaker 4: I would describe this person. I had never met him

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Speaker 4: before we had this conversation, and I am so grateful

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Speaker 4: to have had the opportunity to talk to him, because

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Speaker 4: he's somebody that if you do get that opportunity, you

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Speaker 4: won't forget it.

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Speaker 1: He has recently written a.

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Speaker 4: Children's book, which I know what you're thinking, Catherine, You're

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Speaker 4: talking about children's books on here.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting.

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Speaker 4: It's a children's book that I even said this in

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Speaker 4: the conversation, this needs to be the book of the

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Speaker 4: month for adult book clubs. I'm not even kidding, because

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Speaker 4: even though it won't take you very long to read,

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Speaker 4: you are going to be given themes and ideas and

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Speaker 4: just nuggets to really wrestle through in this book. And

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Speaker 4: it is a book that I think really would have

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Speaker 4: made a difference for me in my childhood if there

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Speaker 4: were stories like this around me. The book is called

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Speaker 4: My gon Goal in Me. It's written by Jonathan, like

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Speaker 4: I said, and it's illustrated by Joanna Carrillo. And I

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Speaker 4: just am so excited for this to be out there.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited for you to hear Jonathan and what

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Speaker 4: he has to say.

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Speaker 1: And he's a great.

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Speaker 4: Follow I told him, and I'm going to tell you

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Speaker 4: guys now, Yes, I want you to get this book,

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Speaker 4: and I want you to use this book as a

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Speaker 4: tool to help yourself and others feel more safe and

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Speaker 4: comfortable to be themselves. But I also want you, guys

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Speaker 4: to feel encouraged to follow Jonathan and his writing and

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Speaker 4: his teachings. A lot of interesting stuff he has out

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Speaker 4: there and a lot of interesting thoughts and conversations he

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Speaker 4: has out there that have been helpful for me. So

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Speaker 4: his Instagram handle is at Jonathan Underscore Merit and I

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Speaker 4: will link all that in the show notes. I will

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Speaker 4: link away for you to get this book. And I

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Speaker 4: hope this conversation is as helpful and fruitful for y'all

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Speaker 4: as it was for me. And I want to say

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Speaker 4: thank you again for Jonathan for allowing me to have

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Speaker 4: this conversation with you and for doing the work that

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Speaker 4: you do, because it is so needed and so special.

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Speaker 4: So I'm going to stop doting on Jonathan and just

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Speaker 4: introduce you to my conversation with him.

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Speaker 3: So here it is.

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Speaker 4: Okay, guys, welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 4: I have my guest here that I just prepped you on, Jonathan.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, my gosh, thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited to get into some of the questions

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Speaker 4: that I have for you, but I want to start

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Speaker 4: just for my information and anybody who's listening. Can you

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Speaker 4: give us a background. I know you're in New York

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Speaker 4: right now. Yes, you told me that you possibly know

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Speaker 4: more people in Nashville than you do in New York.

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Speaker 4: But I want to know where did you come from.

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Speaker 4: I have this idea that you grew up in the

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Speaker 4: Bible belt.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: You nailed it, okay, exactly.

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Speaker 4: I want to hear the cliff notes as much as

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Speaker 4: you want to make them cliff notes version of your

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Speaker 4: story that has kind of gotten you to where you

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Speaker 4: are now in New York.

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Speaker 2: So it's been a long, long road. I was raised

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Speaker 2: in a super religious home. I feel like that's relevant

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Speaker 2: maybe to our discussion a fundamentalist Christian evangelical home. My

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Speaker 2: dad was a megachurch pastor, is a megachurch pastor, a

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Speaker 2: televangelist TV preacher. He was president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

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Speaker 2: So you can't grow up much more evangelical than I did.

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Speaker 2: And it was twenty twelve, when you know, we all

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Speaker 2: have these moments, like I often call them like firewood moments. Right,

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Speaker 2: we're an axe falls, it just sort of splits things

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Speaker 2: in two. And that was the moment that I was outed,

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Speaker 2: and I was outed by somebody who I thought was

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine but proved not to be a friend,

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Speaker 2: and it threw my whole life into disarray and resulted

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Speaker 2: really in moving from the Bible Belt from Atlanta to

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Speaker 2: New York City where I live now. You know, I've

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Speaker 2: been here for ten years. Started out really just as

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Speaker 2: a full time writer, a journalist, an author, a speaker.

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Speaker 2: Then a few years ago I decided I would try

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Speaker 2: something kind of new and fun and career. I would

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Speaker 2: try writing a children's book. And so that's how I

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Speaker 2: got where I am.

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Speaker 4: So question your story back when you said you were outed?

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Speaker 4: Was that an accident? Did that feel malicious?

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Speaker 1: Did it? What was that?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Malicious is the word for sure.

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Speaker 2: I was serving part time on staff with my dad

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Speaker 2: at his church doing as a teaching pastor. I was

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Speaker 2: writing a lot of articles and books. I had written

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Speaker 2: two books. I was under contract to write a third book.

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Speaker 2: So I was kind of developing my own voice in

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Speaker 2: this world and kind of learning to stand on my

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Speaker 2: own two feet. I was twenty nine years old, getting

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Speaker 2: ready to turn thirty, and a friend who I had

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Speaker 2: met once. We'd kind of corresponded, you know, via email,

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Speaker 2: and we had become friends kind of digitally, but we'd

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Speaker 2: met once before. I trusted him with a lot of

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Speaker 2: secrets that he knew things that other people didn't know,

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Speaker 2: and I think he thought that the right thing for

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Speaker 2: him to do in that moment was kind of pushed

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Speaker 2: me out of the closet, and so he wrote an

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Speaker 2: essay at Salon dot com. It was a news story,

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Speaker 2: It was at the Washington Post, it was at Religion

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Speaker 2: News Service, Christianity Today. It just became a really a

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Speaker 2: really overwhelming experience, something that I was totally unprepared for.

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Speaker 2: But I had to figure out really quick how to

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Speaker 2: make peace with it and how to sort through the rebble.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a crazy, crazy experience. I mean,

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Speaker 2: anybody who has ever been through that I call it.

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Speaker 2: I say it was an act of narrative thievery. Somebody

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Speaker 2: steals a story that is not theirs and then chooses

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Speaker 2: to do with that story something you would not choose

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Speaker 2: to do, to tell it in a way you would

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Speaker 2: not choose.

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Speaker 3: To tell it.

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Speaker 2: And so in many ways, you know, I'm lucky to

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Speaker 2: be alive. There are a lot of people that have

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Speaker 2: been in similar situations and they're not here. They can't

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Speaker 2: do this interview with you because they are no longer alive.

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Speaker 2: And so it's a really really scary and dangerous thing.

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Speaker 2: But I survived it, and it sort of has helped

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Speaker 2: me to become who I am in many ways.

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad you shared that because when you said

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Speaker 4: publicly outed, I'm thinking like to your friends and your family,

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Speaker 4: like close around you, but you're saying like publicly, there

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Speaker 4: are publications, and that's how that happened.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was not the top ten most fun moments

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Speaker 3: of my life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would imagine. And so you moved to New

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Speaker 4: York after that? Yeah, I'm curious for you. Was that

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Speaker 4: move to find safety again? Was that move to start fresh?

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Speaker 4: Was that move because this didn't feel like I was

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Speaker 4: accepted in this space anymore?

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Speaker 2: Well, the answer is, you know, yes, yes, and yes.

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Speaker 2: In some ways. I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 2: who grow up in households that have a strong sense

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Speaker 2: of kind of familial identity, there's almost like a gravitational pull,

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Speaker 2: and it sort of draws you into that family and

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Speaker 2: in such a way that your whole identity is wrapped

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Speaker 2: up in the family's identity.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like who I am is only known to me

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Speaker 2: in relation to you. In particular, I would say my

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Speaker 2: dad was a really strong figure for me growing up,

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Speaker 2: and so I only knew who I was in relation

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Speaker 2: to who he was and in order to differentiate, in

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Speaker 2: order to individuate right, I needed not just some relational space,

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Speaker 2: but I needed geographical space. And I knew that really well.

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Speaker 2: So for me it was like, I can't move across town.

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Speaker 2: I have to go far, far away. And I had

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Speaker 2: been in New York. There was a friend of mine

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Speaker 2: who had moved here from Atlanta, and I said to her.

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Speaker 2: She had three kids, one of whom I had special needs,

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Speaker 2: And I said, why would you move to New York,

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Speaker 2: New York so hard? You moved from Atlanta, where had

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Speaker 2: this big house. And she said, you know, there are

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Speaker 2: times in life where there comes a whisper, and it's

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Speaker 2: a totally legitimate life decision to say no to that whisper.

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Speaker 2: But if you do, it will go away and it

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Speaker 2: will never come back again. And I could begin to

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Speaker 2: hear a whisper that had been there since I was

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Speaker 2: a kid when I came to this city for the

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Speaker 2: first time, and I fell in love with it. And

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Speaker 2: I told my dad, I said I'm going to move

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Speaker 2: there one day. I'm going to make it. And he

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Speaker 2: laughed and he said, yeah, everybody says I'm going to

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Speaker 2: move to New York and make it. And I said,

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Speaker 2: I think that's my whisper, and if I don't pay

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Speaker 2: attention to that, it may go away and never come again.

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Speaker 2: And so when I landed on September thirteenth, I sold

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Speaker 2: everything I had. I rented out my house, I sold

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Speaker 2: my car, I packed up what was left into a

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Speaker 2: moving van, and drove into a neighborhood I'd never heard

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Speaker 2: of to live with people i'd never met in an

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Speaker 2: apartment I'd never seen. And that was almost eleven years ago.

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Speaker 4: Which it sounds like, Oh, that's so crazy to do that,

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, it sounds like it also

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Speaker 4: was a safe experience for you to do that too.

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Speaker 4: Like what might be crazy, it's for you to stay

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Speaker 4: in the space that you are in not being able

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 1: The things that you know that you need to do.

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Speaker 4: I'm also curious for you because I actually was reading

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Speaker 4: some of your writing. I sent one of your articles

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Speaker 4: that you posted. I don't know if it was this week.

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Speaker 4: It was more recent about sexuality in the church, and

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Speaker 4: I sent it to actually my sister in law, who

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Speaker 4: works in a church nearby the youth program, and she

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Speaker 4: was like, Oh my gosh, this is the stuff that

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Speaker 4: we need to be reading more about and sharing more about.

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Speaker 4: And it was about kind of changing your mind. That

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Speaker 4: was kind of what I got from it, the themes.

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Speaker 4: And so for you, what has that been like in

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Speaker 4: spaces because we've been on this podcast kind of talking

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Speaker 4: about not specifically Christianity, but faith in religion as a whole.

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Speaker 1: In what it looks like too.

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Speaker 4: I like that you're talking about individually and differentiate to

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Speaker 4: also identify that I get to make sense of this

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Speaker 4: with how it works for me, and I get to

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Speaker 4: change those things and always get to stay the same.

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Speaker 4: And there is some grief and loss in that too,

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Speaker 4: because not everybody believes that. And so I'm curious for

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Speaker 4: you because it sounds like there weren't many people who

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Speaker 4: knew your story and your real identity until this person

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Speaker 4: outed you.

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Speaker 1: Is that true?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct.

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Speaker 4: And so when that did come out, what was that

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Speaker 4: like for you? In the Bible Belt specifically that's the

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Speaker 4: religion and that's the Christian community that I know because

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Speaker 4: I've grown up here my whole life.

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Speaker 1: What was that like for you?

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Speaker 4: And what was the process for you to not I

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Speaker 4: guess the phrase that's coming to mind is like throw

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Speaker 4: the baby out with the bathwater kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of people do who are placed in

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Speaker 2: my situation, because you know, the moment that that happens,

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Speaker 2: you lose a lot of friends. People are just gone.

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Speaker 2: And there are people that before that day I was

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Speaker 2: friends with them, We texted, we hung out, and I

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Speaker 2: have never heard from them again. There are opportunities that

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Speaker 2: vanish disappear, professional opportunities. I had a rising career, I

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Speaker 2: was speaking at huge conferences. I was speaking in you know,

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Speaker 2: giant megachurches one day, and then the next day I

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Speaker 2: wasn't getting any of those invites. And so there is

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Speaker 2: always loss when you have one of these like inciting

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Speaker 2: incidents and you say, hey, the way I really to

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Speaker 2: this community needs to change, or the thing that you

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Speaker 2: thought I believed or that I was isn't exactly right.

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Speaker 2: And anytime that happens, people go, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm not down for that.

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Speaker 3: I'm not okay with that.

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Speaker 2: And that's a sort of conservative religious impulse right that

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Speaker 2: says that the value of community is not diversity but sameness,

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Speaker 2: and communities that value sameness and stringent religious communities by

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Speaker 2: the way, on the far right and the far left

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Speaker 2: who really value sameness and feel threatened by difference, then

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Speaker 2: they only know how to respond to difference by othering

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Speaker 2: and by separation. And so that often is what happens.

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Speaker 2: Somebody comes out and they're never seen or heard from

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Speaker 2: again themselves because they realize that they're not safe in

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Speaker 2: these communities. But you know, for me, moving to New

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Speaker 2: York was such a gift because where I lived in

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Speaker 2: the South, there were a lot of ways to be Christian,

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Speaker 2: but they were kind of in like a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a cluster. There was like a they kind of

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Speaker 2: clustered together, and none of them really made sense. You

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Speaker 2: were conservative Catholic, you were conservative evangelical, or you were

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Speaker 2: still a somewhat conservative non denominational or mainline Protestant regardless.

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Speaker 2: You know, homophobia it was like in the water, and

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Speaker 2: so you were going to encounter that in religious spaces.

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Speaker 2: You were going to encounter misunderstanding and confusion in religious spaces.

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Speaker 2: And so when I moved to New York, I kind

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Speaker 2: of assumed that was what it was going to be like.

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Speaker 2: But you know, New York has infinite varieties of everything,

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Speaker 2: and I suddenly came into contact with all kinds of

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Speaker 2: faith communities that were very different. These faith communities made

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Speaker 2: space for people like me, and when they said come

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Speaker 2: as you are or all are welcomed, they meant it,

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Speaker 2: meant it, And I think that allowed me to really

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Speaker 2: save my faith in many ways and not walk away.

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Speaker 4: That part feels really important, where you just say where

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Speaker 4: they said come as.

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Speaker 1: You are or all is welcome and they meant it.

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Speaker 4: This might be my bias, so I'm going to call

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Speaker 4: that out before I say this, But I hear that

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Speaker 4: all the time, and I can count on less than

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Speaker 4: one hand how many times I have actually seen that

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Speaker 4: to be carried out the way I understand it. And

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Speaker 4: so I'm curious when you were living in the South,

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Speaker 4: was that something that was on your mind where you

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Speaker 4: were like, yeah, all are welcome, Like what you just said,

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Speaker 4: like all are welcome and everybody's we love everybody, but

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Speaker 4: we also behind the scenes know there are some contingencies

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Speaker 4: to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And well, you know, you walk into the in

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Speaker 2: a lot of religious communities, and there is what someone

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Speaker 2: says and then there's how someone behaves, and those things

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Speaker 2: are not always the same.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: The therapeutic term or the psychological term is cognitive dissonance.

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Speaker 2: We often live in this cognitive dissonance, and so I

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Speaker 2: will often tell you, oh my gosh, I'm so nice

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Speaker 2: and I'm so loyal, and then I'm just like crashing

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Speaker 2: people behind their backs, right, and I'm living in cognitive dissonance.

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Speaker 2: And the truth, the truth is not revealed by what

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Speaker 2: I say. The truth is revealed by how I act,

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Speaker 2: because the truth translates into behavior or into action. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of these communities, the phraseology is they use

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Speaker 2: the language of hospitality. The language of hospitality is used,

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Speaker 2: but the behavior of that community never rises to the

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Speaker 2: aspirations of the language of hospitality.

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Speaker 3: And so they'll say things.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, all are welcome, and you come, and you're

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Speaker 2: welcome to walk in the door. You're welcome to write

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Speaker 2: a check to the church, though cash it. But then

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Speaker 2: you say something like, hey, i'd love to volunteer in

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Speaker 2: your preschool ministry, or i'd like to join a small

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Speaker 2: group or teach, I'd like to go through your membership

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Speaker 2: class or help part cars in the morning.

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Speaker 3: And you begin to.

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Speaker 2: Find that all are not actually welcome in the same way,

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Speaker 2: and so there are limitations on that welcome that are

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Speaker 2: not communicated, right It's as if all are welcome needs

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Speaker 2: an asterisk at the end with some fine print at

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Speaker 2: the bottom, but that's all been sort of left out,

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Speaker 2: and you don't really find that that fine print until

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Speaker 2: you do something that violates it. You reach the ends

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Speaker 2: or the limitations of that hospitality. And that happens all

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Speaker 2: the time. You say, oh, i'd love thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for including me and welcoming me. I'd love for

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Speaker 2: you to perform my wedding, or i'd love for you

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Speaker 2: to baptize my child, and you immediately run up against

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Speaker 2: those limitations, and then you're given a nice talking to,

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Speaker 2: And usually that's when people walk away and they feel

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Speaker 2: duped or tricked.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And as you're saying that, I'm thinking about there

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Speaker 4: was a couple years ago I had this like moment

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Speaker 4: where I felt like what are we doing? Like I

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Speaker 4: can't keep going to this place that I feel like

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Speaker 4: I have to show up differently in and not even

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Speaker 4: about like the who I'm dating or like what.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing on the weekend.

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Speaker 4: It felt all encompassing, like the person that I show

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Speaker 4: up as here is not the person I am when

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Speaker 4: I'm at home or when I'm with people that I

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Speaker 4: feel comfortable with. I think that was something that was

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Speaker 4: coming up a lot. It's like, I don't feel like

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Speaker 4: I can really ask questions. I don't feel like I

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Speaker 4: can really and not even like in a way that's

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Speaker 4: trying to like find something out. It's like, no, I'm

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Speaker 4: just curious about this. I want to know more about

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Speaker 4: this that there wasn't that space. And I've been in

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Speaker 4: those spaces in different areas, not just in religious spaces,

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Speaker 4: but even like in certain schools or friend groups and

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Speaker 4: stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And I had this moment where I was like, what

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Speaker 1: am I doing?

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Speaker 4: Like I am trying to fit myself into this thing

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Speaker 4: and continue to go on with this thing because it's

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Speaker 4: something that has given me safety, It's helped me contextualize

404
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Speaker 4: the world. It's given me some kind of hope at times.

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Speaker 4: It has given me a way to almost like construct

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Speaker 4: the world. But it's not fitting with how I have

407
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Speaker 4: learned the world to be and what makes really sense

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Speaker 4: to me. So I was talking to a therapist at

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Speaker 4: the time and I was like, I can't do this anymore,

410
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Speaker 4: and I just wanted to throw it all out. I

411
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Speaker 4: was like, I just think that we're just people floating

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Speaker 4: on a rock and blah blah blah blah, and like

413
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Speaker 4: what's going this whole existential kind of faith crisis. And

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Speaker 4: through the conversation I had with her in multiple conversations,

415
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Speaker 4: what was so helpful and kind of what I'm hearing

416
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Speaker 4: from you is just because it's what you're looking for

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Speaker 4: isn't where you are, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: And that was so helpful for me.

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Speaker 4: And also she helped me not be so judgmental because

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Speaker 4: I got that part of me that was like, how

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Speaker 4: dare you not think the way I think? Or how

422
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Speaker 4: dare you not be as understanding or compassionate or whatever?

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Speaker 4: And she was like, everybody's trying to feel safe, and

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Speaker 4: that looks different for different people, and it sucks sometimes

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Speaker 4: what that looks like. But just like you feel threatened

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Speaker 4: right now, other people feel threatened. And I think if

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Speaker 4: we were having that conversation it would look different. All

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Speaker 4: that to say, I want the people listening to hear

429
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Speaker 4: if you resonate with any of the stuff, or you're

430
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Speaker 4: thinking like I don't know, like I couldn't do that.

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Speaker 4: If something like that happened to me, I'd be done

432
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Speaker 4: for Or maybe that did happen for me, and I

433
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Speaker 4: did throw the baby out with the bathwater. It was

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Speaker 4: so helpful to hear somebody say, just because it doesn't

435
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Speaker 4: exist where you are, it does not mean it doesn't

436
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Speaker 4: exist somewhere else. And what I'm hearing you are saying

437
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Speaker 4: is it did exist somewhere else for me, and it

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Speaker 4: was so life giving.

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Speaker 3: Here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Part of maturity in life, very general statement, is learning

441
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 2: to differentiate between a thing and a version of a thing.

442
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: So a lot of people will say they have a

443
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: bad marriage and they get divorced and they say, I'm

444
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: never getting married again, and they've cons used a thing

445
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: with a version of you got a really bad version

446
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: of a thing. And there are good versions of a

447
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: thing as well. There are a lot of people who

448
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 2: they go to a gem and their gem is just

449
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 2: like a meat locker, right, or they're a meatheads and

450
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 2: they feel stupid, or they have some creepy person who

451
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 2: looks at them weird and makes them feel weird about

452
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: their body, and they go, you know what, a gem

453
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: is not for me, and they never go back. Well,

454
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: there are other gems. There are women's gems, they are

455
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: safer gems. There are gyms with different cultures, the different

456
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 2: types of gems. Because you had a bad version of

457
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: a gem doesn't mean gems are bad. And maturity means

458
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 2: learning to differentiate between what is a thing and what

459
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: is a kind of thing. So a lot of people

460
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: will go into religious communities, whether it's Christian or not,

461
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: and they have a bad experience because they experience, you know,

462
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: bigotry or corruption or dishonesty, and they go. They don't

463
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: say what you should say, which is this is a

464
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 2: bad version of a thing. They go the thing is bad,

465
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 2: and they walk away and they can never come back.

466
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: And I can understand that impulse that sometimes we overreact

467
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 2: because the pain is so great we want to protect

468
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: ourselves from experiencing that pain again. If you continue to

469
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: search for a good version of the thing, there's a

470
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: chance that you'll encounter another bad version of the thing

471
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 2: and you'll get hurt again. And you don't want to

472
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: risk that. And so instead of risking that, you just

473
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: say the thing itself is bad and you sever yourself

474
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 2: off from every version of that thing, and you ensure

475
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: that you will.

476
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 3: Never get hurt again.

477
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: And that's true, but you know what you also do

478
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: is you sever yourself from the possibility of the good gifts,

479
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: of a good version of that thing, That there might

480
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 2: actually be a version of marriage in which you're known

481
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: and loved and accepted, and it's a good version. And

482
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: there may be a gem where you can find health

483
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: and you can find what you're really looking for in

484
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: terms of your own rhythms of exercise, and so you

485
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: can find that out there, and those are good gifts.

486
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 2: But if you cut yourself off from the thing, you'll

487
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: ever find that. And I will tell you in my

488
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 2: experience here in New York, I have found a very

489
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 2: good version of the thing. I go to a church

490
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 2: here called Good Shepherd, New York, and I'm an elder there.

491
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: And we are a church that we don't have a

492
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: statement of faith, we don't police people's beliefs. Everybody is welcome,

493
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 2: no matter what your identity is. And in fact, what

494
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: we say is is we ask you to bring your

495
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: full self, and that the full history of your religious experience.

496
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 2: And a lot of people bring a lot of joy

497
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: from their religious past, and a lot of people bring

498
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 2: a lot of pain from their religious past. And actually

499
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: we welcome both, knowing that there is wisdom in the

500
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: fullness of your experience, whatever it is. Well, that's a

501
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: good version of a thing. But a lot of people

502
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: think about their communities and they go, I've gone to

503
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: a lot of versions of that thing in my community,

504
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: and they've been really, really bad. And I would say

505
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: that there are parts of the world and parts of

506
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 2: the country where there are a higher proportion of really

507
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: bad versions of that thing. And so that requires you

508
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 2: to do a lot of homework on the front to

509
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 2: protect yourself so that you're not retraumatized. That you don't

510
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: just trust hospitable language. The language of hospitality is verified

511
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 2: before you begin to sort of like trust fall into

512
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: a community and risk being heartbroken. So there are ways

513
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 2: to safeguard against it without throwing, as you said, to

514
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: throw the baby out with the bathwater. But it requires

515
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: a certain level of intentionality.

516
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: I think what came up.

517
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: For me as you were saying that is the idea

518
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: of the proportionality bias, where if something happens, like the

519
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 4: reaction needs to be as big, or if something happens,

520
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: what I make up in my head of what that

521
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: means has to be as big, and sometimes it's not proportional.

522
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 4: And that's uncomfortable and kind of weird to sit with,

523
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 4: but it sometimes is the truth. And so to walk

524
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 4: back into a space to get a different version of

525
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: a thing. There are ways that you can protect yourself

526
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 4: and do that safely without completely cutting yourself off from

527
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: the experience and taking an experience that can be really

528
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: got away from you. So I want to kind of

529
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: transition a little bit because I'm talking to you because

530
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 4: you wrote this children's book, and I need to just

531
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: say this before I asked any questions, because two things

532
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 4: surprised me about this book. One, I cried reading this book,

533
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 4: and I didn't expect that because I got it in

534
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 4: the mail and I just was like, Oh, this is

535
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 4: so cute. I started reading it and I was like, why,

536
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: why are their tears coming out of my eyes?

537
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: This is a children's book that I don't know if

538
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: that was the point.

539
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 4: I was really surprised by that and also really grateful

540
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 4: because the reason that I got emotional was because this

541
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 4: was a book that I wish existed when I was younger.

542
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 4: The other part is I was surprised that faith was

543
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 4: part of this book. It wasn't the point of the book,

544
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 4: but I just was like, oh, that's interesting. And I

545
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 4: was like sitting with myself, you know, wiping my tears

546
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 4: after reading this, just reflecting on and I was like,

547
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 4: wait a second, I want to go back to that

548
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 4: because I didn't expect that to pop up there. And

549
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: so I want you to share a little bit about

550
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 4: what this book means to you, and then I want

551
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 4: to talk about why it was so important and why

552
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 4: I felt like it would have been so important for me,

553
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: and also why it was important for you to include

554
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 4: what you included in here.

555
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: I would love to talk about the faith aspect because

556
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: it surprised a lot of reviewers that had ended up

557
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: in there as well.

558
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: But the book I knew I wanted to write a

559
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: children's book.

560
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: I'd felt this spark, this stirring inside of me to

561
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: write a children's book. And I live in this little community,

562
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: little commune almost like community in Manhattan, and we do

563
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 2: a happy hour every Friday at five point thirty. And

564
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: so one of the happy hour coordinators here, whom you

565
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: know you've interviewed on this podcast, Shana Niquist, I sort

566
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: of confessed I said I want to write a children's book,

567
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: and she's like, well, what would you write it?

568
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: About and I'm like, well, I haven't figured that out yet.

569
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: I'm made up my mind, and she goes, why don't

570
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 2: you write about being a gunkle? And it was just

571
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: like she blew on the ember inside of me and

572
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: it became a flame, like yes, that's it. And I

573
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: started working on it the very next day. But you know,

574
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: if you're going to write about being a gun cal, well,

575
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: how are you going to write about being a gun call?

576
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: You're going to write what you know.

577
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: It was sort of becoming autobiographical because I only know

578
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: the kind of gun call that I am. I didn't

579
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: have a gun call growing up, and so I began

580
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: to write my experiences into this and faith is so

581
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: deeply a part of my experience and it has been

582
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: even with these kids. I mean, we have a chapel

583
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: in the middle of this little like a close we

584
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: call it the commune sort of area where we live

585
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: at this old former seminary property here, and on Sundays

586
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: we all get together and we go down.

587
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: To the chapel.

588
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: And I wanted to show that because what I hoped

589
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: these kids would see is that there are going to

590
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: be people in this world that are going to tell

591
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: you you can either be a person of faith or

592
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: you can be fill in the blank, a woman, preacher,

593
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: a person who votes for a certain political party, gay.

594
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: And they're going to give you a false choice, and

595
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: that's going to be conscripted into you, and you are

596
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: going to think you have to choose. And what's going

597
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: to happen is is you're likely going to have to

598
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: choose the thing you can change about who you are.

599
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: And I did not want people to live with that

600
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: false choice, and so I really wrote this book. The

601
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: book is about a guy, a kid named Henry. He's

602
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: struggling to sort of fit in and he's unique. He's crazy,

603
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: dress is really weird, his socks don't match. He likes

604
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: doing math homework and everybody else hates it, of course,

605
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: and his gunkle comes for this visit and they have

606
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: this fabulous adventure together and he sees that what makes

607
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: us different is what makes us beautiful. That is our

608
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: gift to the world. And for a lot of children,

609
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: what makes you different is a liability. It's a risk,

610
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: and so you try to hide it and cover it up.

611
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: You try to change it to become like everyone else.

612
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: And what I hope kids who read this will come

613
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: away with is is that those things are the most

614
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: special gifts you can give to the world, because that's

615
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: what makes you uniquely you, and we don't need you

616
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: to become like everyone else.

617
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 3: We need you to embrace who you are.

618
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 4: I wish I could just clip that what you just

619
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 4: said and just carry it in my pocket everywhere that

620
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 4: I go into every conversation I have, because being different

621
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: is a liability that really stuck out as a child,

622
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: being different as a liability, and I also resonate so

623
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 4: much with you can either be a person of faith

624
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: or you can be something else.

625
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I can only same way.

626
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 4: I can only speak from my experience of what I

627
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: was taught or even what I picked up about what

628
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: I was taught. And I've had a lot of conversations

629
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 4: both with clients, with friends, with people in my community

630
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: around struggling to be the right kind of person of faith.

631
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's.

632
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 4: The right way to phrase it, but to be a

633
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 4: person of faith, I have to be all of these

634
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: things and check all of these boxes. And so my

635
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 4: work becomes checking the boxes versus being the person of faith.

636
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: And in order to check those boxes, I have to

637
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 4: find a way to not check these other boxes or

638
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 4: like make these boxes go away or hide these boxes.

639
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 4: And the phrase like being good, whether that's good enough,

640
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: or being a good girl or a good boy comes

641
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 4: up a lot in these conversations. And when you don't

642
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 4: fit into what is I guess the sameness, going back

643
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 4: to what we were talking about earlier, When you don't

644
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: fit into.

645
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: That, it feels like that is that's bad.

646
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 4: And I'm speaking to this and I'm saying this as

647
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: a cis gendered, white heterosexual person. There's so much privilege

648
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 4: in that where there's boxes that I like could check

649
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 4: kind of easily. At the same time, there are a

650
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 4: lot of boxes that I was like, ugh, I can't

651
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: check that one, and like, how do I erase this?

652
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: And So I love this book because it speaks to everybody.

653
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to just be about your sexuality or

654
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 4: how you dress, or where you live in, what kind

655
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 4: of house you live in, or anything like that.

656
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: It can speak to any of those things.

657
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 4: And if I had a conversation because what I think

658
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: this is, it's it's a conversation starter for a lot

659
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 4: of people, even adults, like I want to bring this

660
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 4: to like an adult circle or adult book club. You know,

661
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 4: we have those those I feel like are ramping up everywhere.

662
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: This should be in an adult book club because I

663
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: can have a more fruitful conversation about the themes that

664
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 4: I've felt popping up in here than some of these

665
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: other four hundred page books that I've read recently, and

666
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 4: to spread the message that being different is not a liability.

667
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: To me at this point in my life, it's like duh.

668
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 4: But at the same time, that message feels really hard,

669
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: and it feels again the word that it's coming up

670
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: is like scary for people, And so I guess I'm

671
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 4: curious for you when when you're having those conversations, or

672
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 4: maybe you see the discourse online places, what would you offer?

673
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 4: What would you want to add to the conversation when

674
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: part of that conversation is like, but it still feels

675
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 4: like a liability?

676
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 1: What would you say to people who disagree with that?

677
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: What would you offer?

678
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 4: What would you want to add to the conversation when

679
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: part of that conversation is like, but it still feels

680
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: like a liability? What would you say to people who

681
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 4: disagree with that?

682
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: I think that you just said something that was really

683
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: interesting that I want to like you know, click on

684
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: which is it feels like a liability, and that is true.

685
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: And what can happen is is that we can confuse

686
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: feeling with fact. Oftentimes now they're not unrelated, by the way,

687
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: because there's wisdom and knowledge in your emotions. You can

688
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: walk into a room and go, this guy feels like

689
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: a creep. Well, that's not a fact. It doesn't make

690
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: him a creep. But maybe you should listen to that

691
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: that you're picking up on something that your emotions are

692
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: also a source of wisdom. I was told when I

693
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: was growing up how you feel doesn't matter, and that's

694
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: not true, right, Your emotions matter, but your emotions are

695
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: not bringing you pure fact. And so it's true you

696
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: feel that your differences are liabilities. And to some extent,

697
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: that's because the world has sort of taught you that.

698
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: There are two things that I think are part of growing,

699
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: not only learning but also unlearning. And oftentimes you have

700
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: to unlearn in order to learn. So we have to

701
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: unlearn what the world has taught us about difference so

702
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: that we can learn what is true about difference. And

703
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: for a lot of people that's just like a bit

704
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: of a mind shift, is like not what is true.

705
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 3: But what do you need to unlearn that is not true? First?

706
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: So what do you do first? What do you do second?

707
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: Unlearning then learning? The other thing that I will say

708
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 2: is is that and you just said this a minute ago,

709
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: is like, you know, okay, the idea that like embracing

710
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 2: my difference is important. I mean, yeah, at this point

711
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: where we're fully grown adults, we're doing our work. We've

712
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: done our work read the books, right duh. On the

713
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: other hand, so much of growth in life is not

714
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: just about learning new things. It's about reminding yourself of

715
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: truths that you're so tempted to forget. We're tempted to

716
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: forget that what makes us different, makes us beautiful, makes

717
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: us unique, makes us special. It's our gift to the world.

718
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: We forget the things that as little kids, that we

719
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: would hear from the safe people, the empathetic witnesses in

720
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: our lives, the mister Rogers on the TV who says,

721
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: you make this day a special day by just your

722
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: being you, and I like you just the way you are.

723
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: Well, I remember that.

724
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: I hear that, but I'm so tempted to forget it

725
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: because then I have to be as a as a

726
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: big grown up. I have to go out in the world,

727
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: and I forgot what mister Rogers told me. So I

728
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: have to remember that. I have to remind myself of that,

729
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 2: and that's an ongoing and active process. And so that's

730
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do with this book. And you know,

731
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: even to your point about faith, it's why I wanted

732
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 2: to make that point out explicit. In fact, i'll repeat

733
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: that that section from memory. It says at church the

734
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: next day, my gunkle sings loudly, he prays and gives thanks,

735
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: and he does it devoutly. His bright colored outfit makes

736
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: two women stare. When we leave, they both snicker, but

737
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: he doesn't care. And there are two things that are

738
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: embedded into that. One is a reminder of what I

739
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: said before, that you don't.

740
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 3: Have to choose.

741
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: People will tell you that you can't be a person

742
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 2: of faith and fill in the blank, and that is false.

743
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 2: You can hold those two identities together and you don't

744
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: have to choose one just because somebody else says you

745
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: have to. And the second is as you hold those

746
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 2: identities together to embrace the fullness of who you are.

747
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: When you enter into certain spaces, you may encounter misunderstanding

748
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: or bigotry. You may encounter ridicule, and that's okay. Just

749
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 2: like the character in this book, you can hold your

750
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 2: head high. You can embrace who you are. You can

751
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: live your life as who you know. You truly are

752
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: deep down in the place where we know things, and

753
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: that's okay. And I hope both of those things sort

754
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 2: of came through in that part of the book.

755
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to say this because it's not going

756
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 4: to leave my brain. You sounded just like mister Rogers

757
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: when you said that.

758
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: Well, I used to watch him a lot. In fact,

759
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: here's a little easter egg, and there are a lot

760
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: of Easter eggs in this book. But if you turn

761
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: to the front page, you'll see my dedication is to

762
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: mister Rogers because I think he really saved my life

763
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 2: as a kid who felt different. He was the one

764
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: who told me when the world was the world wasn't

765
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: giving us stories like this. They weren't giving us models

766
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: like this. You know, the only model I had for

767
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: being a grown up gay person was somebody with a

768
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: heroin needle, somebody in a hospital bed dying of AIDS.

769
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: These are the things that in the late eighties and

770
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: in the nineties, these were the images we were given.

771
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: These were the stories that we were being told. They

772
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: weren't stories like this of well adjusted individuals who were

773
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: integrated into family units, who were valued members of these communities.

774
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: So I wanted to tell people a different story. But

775
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 2: the only person who was telling me a different story

776
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: was a guy named Fred Rogers, who came to me

777
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: a via public television, and so I felt it was

778
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: appropriate to dedicate this book to him.

779
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 4: I wonder if that's part of the emotions that came

780
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 4: out when I was reading this, because I saw that

781
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 4: I watched that every single day after school, and as

782
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: you said that, I'm thinking, what's so funny is our

783
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: families were putting us in front of a TV show

784
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 4: and I remember watching, like in the basement by myself,

785
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: and we were getting this messaging that like they didn't

786
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: even realize that we were getting And if they knew,

787
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 4: I don't know if there are certain places that would

788
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 4: have thought differently, or or what have you.

789
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad they didn't.

790
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 4: But that is also so important that you just said

791
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: about the images that people used to receive and the

792
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 4: ideas that people used to receive, Because if we are

793
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 4: not willing as a siety to pay any attention to

794
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 4: the examples and realness and the reality of what that is. Now,

795
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 4: that's all we're going to have is the people dying

796
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 4: of aids in hospital beds and what you just said,

797
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: And that.

798
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: Is so limiting.

799
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 4: And the word that I'm hearing in my head is

800
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 4: that sucks. Like that we have to keep on using

801
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 4: old misinformation when there's so much new information out there

802
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 4: that can be so loving and kind and helpful. That's

803
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 4: why we need these kinds of books, also why we

804
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 4: need I guess I have to say this because I

805
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 4: am This is one of my fears and it has

806
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 4: to do with just part of where I live too.

807
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: Is my fear is that like what happens if these books.

808
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 4: Aren't allowed in certain places, Like what happens if this

809
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 4: and I don't even know, I'm not even thinking, I

810
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 4: guess even public schools, Like what happens if these books

811
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 4: aren't allowed in places that they need.

812
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 2: To be Well, the risk there is that we get stuck.

813
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 2: We get stuck where we were as children, where you

814
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 2: maybe didn't have a model for being a woman, who

815
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 2: had opinions for being a woman who had her own

816
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: career in her own right, for being a woman who

817
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: was a leader, for being a woman who desired ambitious things,

818
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: for being a woman who maybe doesn't want children. And

819
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: in my case, it's being stuck in a world where

820
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: being queer can lead to depression and anxiety and suicide,

821
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: and where you feel threatened and you feel misunderstood because

822
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 2: you don't have any representation of yourself in popular culture.

823
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 2: And so, you know, one of the things I'll say

824
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 2: about this book. If somebody's listening and maybe they're from

825
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: Nashville and they're going, oh, I don't know. The interesting

826
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: thing about the book is it never explains what a

827
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: gunkle is. So I have empowered I've empowered parents in

828
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: this book to have a conversation with their kid and

829
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: however they want to have that conversation. That nobody in

830
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: this book is sexualized. Nobody in this book has a relationship,

831
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: I mean, except for Henry's parents. This is a story

832
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: about a child learning to embrace his difference in a

833
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 2: world where gunkls happen to exist, which is.

834
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: The world where our children live.

835
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: And so it simply is a story that shows this

836
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: character interacting in a really normal way, and I think

837
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 2: these are the kinds of stories that we should be telling.

838
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 4: I'm glad you explained that because maybe people who are

839
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 4: listening are like, wait, what you just said that you're

840
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: the cisgendered, white heterosexual person. What do you mean this

841
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 4: book isn't about the gunkle being gay.

842
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: I didn't get that at all.

843
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 4: I got what you just got, and I was like,

844
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: that's what I wish that more people had. Is like,

845
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 4: it can be anything from how you dress, to what

846
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: you want to be when you grow up, to what

847
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 4: you don't want to be when you grow up to

848
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 4: I even think about like the things I liked doing

849
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 4: after school, like the sports I was playing, or the

850
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: hobbies that I picked up up, and I wonder, and

851
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 4: sometimes I'm like, this.

852
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,479
Speaker 1: Gets me in a cycle that is going.

853
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 4: To be good for nobody. But I wonder, like if

854
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 4: I was allowed to be kind of like how you're

855
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 4: posturing Henry to be in this book, if I was

856
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 4: allowed to have that freedom, what the heck would I

857
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 4: be doing? Like I'm so interested in that, And my

858
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 4: fear is I don't want our world to kind of

859
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 4: be stifled in what we are even from like when

860
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 4: you brought up like a woman having a career or

861
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 4: doing this, or having kids or not having kids, or

862
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 4: having an opinion. So many opinions and beliefs and things

863
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 4: were stifled forever, and they're just now starting to break

864
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: some of that.

865
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: There's so much magic. I feel like it's lost.

866
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's like women were allowed to have

867
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: credit cards in nineteen seventy three.

868
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: It's crazy.

869
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: I mean, chew on that for a minute. And by

870
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: the way, there's no guarantee that we'll never go back

871
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy three unless we all as communities say

872
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: we want to cantinue to create space for people to

873
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: be who they are. And that's important, even if you

874
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: feel threatened, even if you feel confused. We want to

875
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: create space for people to be who they are. And

876
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: so that for me is really important. You know, when

877
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: I was growing up, I kind of thought we were

878
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: moving in one direction. Everything was just going to become

879
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: more and more. Racism would be a thing of the past,

880
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: Homophobia would be a thing of the past. Eventually, with

881
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: enough time, we'll get there. And what I'm seeing now

882
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: happening in the world is telling us that that's not

883
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 2: guaranteed that progress doesn't always move in a steady march

884
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: in one direction. And so if we want people to

885
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: feel loved and protected in society, there has to be

886
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: ongoing efforts not just to make laws, but to tell stories.

887
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: And that is important. You know a lot of people

888
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: have written about this, but there's a very famous quote

889
00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: by a guy named Andrew Fletcher, and he says, let

890
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: me make the songs of a nation, and I care.

891
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 3: Not who makes its laws.

892
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 4: Right.

893
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: The idea is is that the stories that we tell

894
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 2: and the stories that we sing, they shape our world

895
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: more profoundly than just passing a law. Doesn't mean that

896
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: laws don't matter, right, of course, laws matter. I'm grateful

897
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: for this, for Civil Rights Act, and for some of

898
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: the laws that have been passed that protect our liberties.

899
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: But the idea is that we are shaped by the

900
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 2: songs and the stories that we tell. And I have

901
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: long understood that the future world that we will create

902
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: is largely a function of the stories we choose to

903
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: tell our children, because those stories will weave themselves into

904
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: their DNA, and they will shape the kinds of adults

905
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: they become and the kinds of worlds that they will

906
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: create even after we're long gone. And so I take

907
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 2: this very seriously. It's such a fun thing to write

908
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: a book, but it's also serious business, and I made

909
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,959
Speaker 2: sure to balance both of those things at the same time,

910
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: and I.

911
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: Think you did a really good job.

912
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 4: One of the last things that I want to say,

913
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 4: because this I heard this very loudly as you were speaking,

914
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: is this idea that somebody's safeness does not threaten another

915
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 4: person's safeness, and it reminds me of I don't know

916
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 4: what the actual I know there's a term for this,

917
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 4: but and I think it more has to do with

918
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 4: like economics, but like somebody's gained as an equal somebody's loss.

919
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 4: I think that that pops up a lot where like, well,

920
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 4: if you're accepted for who you are, then what happens

921
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 4: to what I am? Or if this faith or this

922
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 4: sect of what have you believes this what happens to

923
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 4: my beliefs? And it feels like we're constantly trying to

924
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 4: protect our own whatever it is. But what I've am

925
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: coming to know, and part of that is in hearing

926
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 4: what you're saying, is that there's space for us to

927
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 4: all kind of feel safe if we allow.

928
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: That yeah, you know, So this is the thing.

929
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: Some of this is because we live in a capitalistic

930
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: society and a consumeristic society, and so we were programmed

931
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: to think of everything as a pie, and here's the pie,

932
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: and if you get a piece, that's one less piece.

933
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 3: That's available to me.

934
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: Right, Because we're thinking in terms of goods and resources,

935
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: because that's our whole life is built around goods and

936
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: resources and profit and selling and buying. Right, And so

937
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: if I take a mug off the shelf, that's one

938
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: less mug that can be bought by the next person. Right.

939
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: There's a supply, and we think in terms of supply.

940
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: But the problem is is when we start to lay

941
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: those concepts over things that are immaterial and are not

942
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: supply limited. So something like liberty making a man free

943
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: does not mean that there's less liberty for the woman.

944
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: It isn't a pie, you know, in order for the

945
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: man to have a slice of the pie, there's unlimited slices.

946
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: We can all have a slice of the pie. And

947
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 2: we have to actually begin to own these false assumptions

948
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 2: about the way the world works in order to build

949
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: a world that is reckoning with the reality of freedom.

950
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of people out there that say,

951
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 2: if I make you free, then somehow that's I'm less free.

952
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: You know, we had this as a gay man. I

953
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: think about this a lot. We had this concept with marriage.

954
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: I grew up hearing, well, if gay people are allowed

955
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: to marry, somehow it ruins marriage for straight people. And

956
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 2: first of all, straight people have been ruining marriage since

957
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: it was invented, right, So when nobody's going to ruin

958
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: your marriage except you, I can't make you a terrible husband.

959
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 3: You're already that.

960
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: So that is sort of a weird idea. But there's

961
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: an underlying concept there that somehow, if you have a

962
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: thing that I have, it's going to affect my thing.

963
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: And that's a false belief, of course, you know, like

964
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: they legalize gay marriage and nobody, you know, it wasn't

965
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: like a wave of straight people were affected by that.

966
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: Like straight people just kind of their marriages kept working

967
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: exactly how they were working before. So there was an

968
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: exposure of that weird that weird concept, that weird idea

969
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 2: that the whole thing would fall apart if you let

970
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: other people have access to it. And I think that's

971
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: I think that's true in a lot of ways, with

972
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: all kinds of liberties. And we're adjudicating that right now.

973
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 2: And it goes back to stories. And by the way,

974
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: a lot of people know that stories matter in this way,

975
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: which is why certain kinds of stories, including this one,

976
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: are now met not with embrace and celebration, but with fear,

977
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: with resistance, with anger. And you know, if you're listening

978
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: to this and you go, gosh, I'm hearing him say this,

979
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 2: and I agree with him, like, this is the kind

980
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: of story.

981
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 3: That needs to exist.

982
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: That's why I say, please go buy my book. And

983
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: that sounds very self serving. It's not self serving. Here's

984
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: what I mean by that. In order for people to

985
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: take risks on these kinds of stories so that they

986
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: continue to exist, we have to show the decision makers

987
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: that there's a market for them, that we will buy them,

988
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: that we will read them to our children, that we

989
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: will sow them into the fabric of our society. And

990
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: the only way we do that is by supporting this

991
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: kind of storytelling. And so it's not enough for us

992
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: to go, well, that's good, that's nice. We have to

993
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: buy the decisions we make. We have to support this

994
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 2: kind of storytelling because it does matter. It matters more

995
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: than we know.

996
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want you in kind of in closing this

997
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 4: out if you could, because I felt like this amounts

998
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 4: a lot to me, and reading the article helped me

999
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 4: kind of work through some things that I had been

1000
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 4: like just frustrate with with myself.

1001
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: But the article, I'm blanking on the name of it.

1002
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: But you just posted it about like the theologian that

1003
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 4: shifted his mind on the gay was it gay marriage?

1004
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1005
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: So I wrote about a guy who was sort of

1006
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 2: for many many years, he was a dean at Duke

1007
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: University's Divinity School, and he was for many years he

1008
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 2: sort of defended the idea that Christianity and being gay

1009
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: were incompatible. And he's now much older and he has

1010
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 2: changed his mind on that and he's sort of come

1011
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 2: out to say, hey, I was wrong. So I wrote

1012
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: about that, and I was writing about the way that

1013
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: these conversations have changed. And also what the story was

1014
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 2: really about was not just about this one guy changing

1015
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 2: his mind, but about giving us, all of us, giving

1016
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: ourselves freedom to change our minds.

1017
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that is an important to anybody

1018
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 4: that's coming up to me as we think about like

1019
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 4: sharing these stories and buying this book and supporting and

1020
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 4: shifting the stories. I will speak for myself for a

1021
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 4: lot of my life, the story that I was sharing

1022
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 4: in the way that I would have approached this book

1023
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 4: or the article that you put out was very different

1024
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 4: and for me, in order for me to change my mind,

1025
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 4: I had to also wrestle with a lot of feelings

1026
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 4: around how I.

1027
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: Used to show up.

1028
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 4: There was some shame there, and there's some guilt there,

1029
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,760
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of sadness. And it's so helpful

1030
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 4: when we see people do that brave thing that come

1031
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 4: out and say like, oh, I think I was wrong,

1032
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 4: and I think that might have impacted people. And I've

1033
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 4: done some work and I've learned some things, and that's

1034
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 4: not what I know to be true anymore. And so

1035
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 4: I'm going to be brave enough and have courage enough

1036
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 4: to share what I believe to be true. I think

1037
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 4: that's really important, and I think that is something along

1038
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 4: with sharing these stories, is opening up space for people

1039
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 4: who are afraid to have admitted that maybe the stories

1040
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 4: they are is sharing in their past might have not

1041
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 4: been the best stories at times. So I really enjoyed

1042
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 4: that article and I'm so thankful you wrote this book

1043
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 4: for many reasons, but one because that is how I

1044
00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 4: found out who you are. And now I feel like

1045
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 4: I'm going to continue to learn from a lot of

1046
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 4: your writing and listening to the things you put on

1047
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 4: social media and out in the world.

1048
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, Oh my gosh, thank you.

1049
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: And I hope people will take away exactly what you

1050
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 2: just said, the idea that like, do not be content

1051
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: to believe whatever your chosen political party tells you you

1052
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 2: should believe, or whatever the church that you happen to

1053
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: attend or be a member of.

1054
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 3: Tells you to believe.

1055
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: Instead, begin to listen to the wisdom that's coming into

1056
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: your life from the people that you meet and the

1057
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: people that you love. There's a great quote by Frederic Biegner,

1058
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: and it says, listen to your life. See it for

1059
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: the fathomless mystery. It is in the boredom and the

1060
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: pain of it no less than in the excitement and gladness, Touch, taste,

1061
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 2: smell your way to the holy and hidden heart of it.

1062
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 2: Because in the last analysis, all moments are key moments,

1063
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 2: and life itself is grace. So listen to your life.

1064
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: This book is an example maybe to help people listen

1065
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: a little bit to my life, and I hope when

1066
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: they read it that they feel touched by it.

1067
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like they will. So where can they

1068
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 4: find it and where can they find you?

1069
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: Yes, you can find me on Instagram Jonathan Merritt, or

1070
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: you can find me on my website Jonathan Merrett dot com.

1071
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 2: You can subscribe to my newsletter there, and they can

1072
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: buy the book anywhere books are sold. I love for

1073
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 2: people to buy it at Target because hopefully then Target

1074
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: will start carrying it in more and more stores. If

1075
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 2: you don't want to buy from Target dot com, you

1076
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 2: can also buy it from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or

1077
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: anywhere that you choose to buy books. But I say,

1078
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: buy it for you, your children, your friends' children, your

1079
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: step children, your godchildren, your neighbor's children, whoever children you

1080
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: have in your life. And I thank you for doing it,

1081
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: and hope it's a blessing.

1082
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, my gosh, thank you so much,