1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. All Right, I think 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: that the panel has been uh verc patient, I'm sure 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: very interested, and everything has been said, and perhaps we 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: might ask who would like to start the questioning? Back 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: to thinking, Well, I'd like to begin the questioning, if 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: I may, with with one general line of inquiry. Our 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: present understanding of the evolution of of life on Earth 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: is that it's a slow process of evolution by natural selection. 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: The human beings are the product of several billions of 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: years of random mutation accidental effects leading up to what 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: we are now. Other planets certainly have environments quite different 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: from those on the Earth, and therefore we would expect 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: it beings that evolved there would have even greater differences, 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: and that would not look closely like human beings. And 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: that's why I was interested to see that the characterization 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: of the inhabitants of the supposed extraterrestrial space vehicle where 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: we're a few minor difference, is very closely human. Head, 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: two eyes, smell like a nose, mouth, hands, feet, and 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: so on. This seemed to me that much more likely 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: that this was putting projecting human experience onto perhaps something else. 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: I think the thing that strikes me most is the 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: fact that not only did these creatures breathe the Earth's 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: atmosphere with no difficulty, but you were able to breathe 25 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: the spacecraft's atmosphere with no difficulty. Is that a question, No, 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: it's our common Well, that's all I can say is 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: did you notice any respirators or anything of that? Not 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: my position, um certain out of psychologists, but some aspects 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: of the story that Mrs Hill told, particularly the needle incident, 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: seemed to me recognizable having read Freud. I discussed it 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: with Betty herself too, and that Betty is as a 32 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: qualified state social worker, is aware of the dream symbolism 33 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Oh man, I had something 34 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: said something that I've discovered sense the hypnosis, And I 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: don't know is this would apply to it, doubts, But 36 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: in hospitals, when it's necessary to obtain a blood sample 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: from a small infant, it is done through the navel. 38 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: I think that you might uh correct me, and this 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: is wrong at least point out the one fact that 40 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: you said it was a very large needle, larger than 41 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: anything that you had ever seen before long that it 42 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: had been plunged into your navel. I can't say that 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: it was plunged in. What it was that they started 44 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: to insert it and I had pain, and I was 45 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: under the impression they stopped, But there was no blood 46 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: or physical evidence of puncture. I wasn't aware of this 47 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: until nineteen Well, whenever it happened, if it did happen, 48 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: you didn't detect any wound on your body. That's Carl 49 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: Sagan expressing his skepticism to Betty and Barney Hill on 50 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: The David Schomberg Show in nineteen seven. I think a 51 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: skeptical mindset has to be brought to bear on any 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: claims regarding UFOs, and quite frankly, the UFO proponents that 53 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: I spoke with for this podcast expressed the same opinion. 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: But there's significant disagreement on what exactly constitutes evidence in 55 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: this context and at what point you can conclude that 56 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: abductions are happening. Carl Sagan asserted that extraordinary evidence of 57 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial visitation was required. A half century after the Hill 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: experience kicked off a succession of abduction accounts. What is 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: the state of the evidence. I'm Toby Ball and This 60 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: Is Strange Arrivals Episode eleven, Extraordinary Claims. In the nineteen 61 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, interest in UFO abductions peaked partly because 62 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: of the work of Bud Hopkins, John mac and David Jacobs, 63 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: and partly because the concept had been adopted by popular culture, 64 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: most notably in the X Files and Close Encounters of 65 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: the Third Kind. However, it was all fueled by the 66 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: sheer number of people who truly believe that they've been abducted. 67 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: UFO researcher Alajandro Rojas there are, and I don't think 68 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: the general public realizes this, tens of thousands, if not 69 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people that report these experiences, that 70 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: believe they're having interactions or abductions with aliens. And some 71 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: of these people are very credible lawyers, police, people in 72 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: the military. That I think makes it very significant. During 73 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: this time, there was a change in the standard abduction story. 74 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: Instead of driving lonely roads at night, the abductee would 75 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: be in bed asleep and it would be pulled from 76 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: their bedroom up to a craft where they'd be subjected 77 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: to examination and experimentation. The new narrative was consistent with 78 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: the medically recognized condition known as sleep paralysis. Skeptoid host 79 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: Brian Dunning. Sleep paralysis is when you wake up, Usually 80 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: it's shortly after you've fallen asleep or shortly before you 81 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: wake up. You're conscious, but you're unable to move, and 82 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: you see you often see some sort of an entity 83 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: there in the room with you, and that entity often 84 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: sits on you or pushes down on you, and you 85 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: feel a weight on your chest holding you down and 86 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: you can't move. That's a classic case of sleep paralysis. 87 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: It's a very thoroughly documented actual phenomenon. This is not new. 88 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: Samuel Johnson defined the conditions of sleep paralysis as a 89 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: quote unquote nightmare in his Dictionary of the English Language 90 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: in seventeen fifty five. The term nightmare eventually evolved to 91 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: today's meaning of a bad dream. Now where the Betty 92 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and Barney Hill story comes into it and impacts the 93 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: history of sleep paralysis is what character people have seen 94 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: sitting on their chest during these episodes prior to this, 95 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: Prior to the nineteen sixties, in Western society, it was 96 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: always the old hag. That's where we get the turn 97 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: feeling haggard from. You feel Haggard today because you were 98 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: up last night, because the old hag was writing you 99 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: around like a donkey. People would wake up and they 100 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: would see this hag a crone which type character sitting 101 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: on them, are standing over them. After the Betty and 102 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: Barney Hills story changed and this idea of the gray 103 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: alien entered sort of the pop consciousness, suddenly we had 104 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: alien abductions. People would wake up reporting gray aliens in 105 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: their bedroom. Thees I think was when this really peaked. 106 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: University of California, Irvine professor Elizabeth loftis sleep paralysis. It's 107 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: very scary if you don't know what it is, and 108 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: they end up, you know, in the hands of somebody 109 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: like Hopkins or John Mack who manages to convince them 110 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: that this is a sign that they were abducted and 111 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: that's what they need to deal with. And through suggestive interventions, interviewing, hypnosis, whatever, 112 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: they helped these patients clients, whatever they are, conjure up 113 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: images that then feel as if memories. Even among supporters 114 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: of the idea that UFO abductions are occurring, there is 115 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: an acknowledgement that at least some reported abductions are the 116 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: result of sleep paralysis. It's a fascinating topic, and Betty 117 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: and Barney Hill story had a huge impact steering the 118 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: history of sleep paralysis in the United States, which I 119 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: think is just marvelous. Belief that aliens have visited the 120 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: Earth remained strong in the US. In twenty century Fox 121 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: Home Entertainment commissioned to survey regarding UFOs and aliens. It 122 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: found that almost thirty nine percent of Americans believed that 123 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: aliens have visited the Earth. An eighteen percent believe that 124 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: aliens do abduct people. But despite this, alien abductions seemed 125 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: to have slipped from the public consciousness in recent years. 126 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: Author Terry Matheson, I remember you could go through a 127 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: supermarket checkout line without seeing at least one tabloid with 128 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: a picture of an alien on the front cover and 129 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: a news story about somebody who has been abducted by aliens. Now, 130 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: I can't remember the last time I saw anything like that. 131 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: It seems to have just dropped off the radar. As 132 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: I've mentioned earlier in this series, I think this is 133 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: largely due to the escalation in the scope and strangeness 134 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: of abduction stories. When you are constantly one upping the 135 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: previous story. There comes a point at which the narrative 136 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: becomes so incredible that it can't plausibly be made more extreme. 137 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: There is a limit, and for abductions that limit seemed 138 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: to be hit during the Hopkins era. Matheson has a 139 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: similar take. It relies on the book Morphology of the 140 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: Folk Tale by Vladimir Prop, which looked at how folk 141 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: tales are structured. Prop argue that there are only certain 142 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: of that can follow from a previous event. Take a 143 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: fairy tale, for example, Cinderella's mother dies. Okay, what's going 144 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: to happen? There are two possibilities. The father will marry again, 145 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: or he won't. Then he marries again. The stepmother will 146 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: be good and loving or hard and ruthless. Well, it 147 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: makes a better story if she's the latter. And he 148 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: went on and on showing how there are certain developments 149 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: in every story, that the story is limited by the 150 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: number of things you can profitably put into as a 151 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: subsequent event. And I think that gets us back to 152 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: this whole thing about what happened to the abduction mess. 153 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: The myths ran out of things to add on that 154 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: would be believable. The alien abduction has receded from the 155 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: public consciousness. That doesn't mean that research on the phenomenon 156 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: has ceased. After the break, strange arrivals will return in 157 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: a moment. Meant you might remember the name Dr Don Dndree. 158 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: We heard about him much earlier in the series. He 159 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: was one of the authors, along with Bud Hopkins, of 160 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: a paper about alien symbols. He's a retired associate professor 161 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: at McGill University and he's active in the field of 162 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: UFO investigation. I spoke with him because I wanted to 163 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: find out what is currently happening in the field of 164 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: abduction research. He struck me as a little like Bud 165 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: Hopkins and his beliefs, but far more measured and with 166 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: a significant background in science. Dr Dondrey has boiled his 167 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: theories into three simple propositions about alien abduction. The first 168 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: proposition is some of of people report as UFOs are 169 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: extra terrestrial vehicles, they actually are from somewhere else. Proposition 170 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: to some of those vehicles have et crews what in 171 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: popular languages called aliens or extraterrestrials. And point three, some 172 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: of those crews catch and release people to study us. 173 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: That's commonly called an alien abduction. I think all of 174 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: those three propositions are true, but notice that each of 175 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: them has a sum in it, so not every account 176 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: is true. But some of what people report as UFOs 177 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: are ET vehicles. Some ET vehicles, not all of them, 178 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: have ET crews, and some of those ET crews, to 179 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: put it in plain language, mess around with us. They 180 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: grab people, bring them aboard, do examinations and other things, 181 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: and put us back. So that's the story. That's what 182 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: I think is happening. I wondered why, as a scientist, 183 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: let him to assert these propositions, given the lack of 184 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: physical evidence of abductions, what could you point to as 185 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: evidence that these events were actually taking place. There are 186 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: many reports like this goes back many years, and those 187 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: reports have basically been classified, studied, and documented. Many of 188 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: them are military people. Many of them are people in 189 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: positions of public authority like cops ore CNP officers in Canada, 190 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: military people in the United States, many of them accompanied 191 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: by videos and radar plots. So the evidence is cumulatively overwhelming. 192 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: There's no lack of evidence that is both instrumental. That is, 193 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: people are not just saying something, but they're showing you 194 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: a video showing you a radar plot showing you, and 195 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: this is acceptable, a drawing that they made from memory 196 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: right away. A scientist or a naturalist goes about his 197 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: or her work exactly the way I'm describing. You go 198 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: out into nature, you look at something, you write it down, 199 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: you take a picture of it, a video of it, 200 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: you catch it. Or in the case of science, you 201 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: set up an experiment in which you control some conditions 202 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: and you see what happens. They abduct people from their houses, 203 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: from their cars, They test them, they examine them, they 204 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: put them back. That is, from my point of view known. 205 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: What their motives are is unknown. That they mess with 206 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: us is known, and that's not good. During our conversation, 207 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: Dondree asserted that he believed that abductions were happening. He 208 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: did not venture a guess about the number of abductions 209 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: that might be occurring, though I asked. He also didn't 210 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: put forth any particular cases as being exemplary, though he 211 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: has written about many cases. His message to me was 212 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: simply this abductions are happening to be transparent. I don't 213 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: believe they are. And this has nothing to do with 214 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: Dr Dondree, who is smart, sane and very gracious when 215 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: talking to a person with much less knowledge of the 216 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: field and an admittedly skeptical outlook. Instead, it might have 217 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: to do with the way that I'm wired. Let's go 218 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: back to the very beginning of the podcast. I talked 219 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: about the lights that a group of us saw across 220 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: the expanse of a New Hampshire lake. Two of us 221 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: concluded that they were alien spacecraft. The other two, myself included, 222 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: conceded that we couldn't identify what the lights were, but 223 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: we were sure they had nothing to do with aliens. 224 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: Why is it that in the face of identical experiences 225 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: we would draw such different conclusions. Is it down to psychology? 226 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: I asked the University of New Hampshire's Mark Ken about this. 227 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: There have been a few neat experimental analyzes that are 228 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: showing some reliable differences that are intriguing, like, for instance, 229 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: a memory test where we give people a list of words. Say, 230 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: for instance, the words might be pillow, blanket, night moon. 231 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: The one thing that's not in the list is the 232 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: word sleep, but everything around that list talks about sleep. 233 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: Or we could do the same thing with everything around 234 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: the world word music, or everything around the word suite. 235 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: If you give people these lists to memorize, both skeptics 236 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: and believers will come up with the same number of 237 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: words right that we're on the list, so we have 238 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: very similar memories there. But the believers will also tend 239 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: to remember the words that were not on the list, 240 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: the target word that was not there, more than skeptics do. 241 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: Not only does the believer group remember a word that 242 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: wasn't on the list, but that word that they falsely 243 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: remember is the explanation that pulls together the other words 244 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: into an understandable whole. Next, he talked about an older 245 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: study that examined how believers and skeptics reported observing paranormal 246 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: activities about a century ago, when psychology was getting started 247 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: and the spiritualism movement was getting started. So it's not UFOs, 248 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: but this is seances. You could experimentally set up a 249 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: seance such that you knew because you set it up, 250 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: that this thing was going to move by itself as 251 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: you had your hands held around the table and we're 252 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: talking to the dead people. Now, the question was with 253 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: the believers reports seeing the things that actually happened, but 254 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: also other things that didn't, and what skeptics actually declined 255 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: to report the seemingly supernatural things that they saw. It 256 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: turned out that for those experiments, again it was the 257 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: believers who were more likely to see things and report 258 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: things that didn't happen. The skeptics actually did, on average, 259 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: tend to report the unexplainable things that did happen. Finally, 260 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: he talked about how preconceived ideas are very difficult to change. 261 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: This study he describes involves medical students. Some of the 262 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: students believe in Darwinian evolution and some in Lamarchian evolution. 263 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: I had to read up on what the difference was 264 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: for our purposes. You just need to know that these 265 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: are two different theories on how traits are passed down 266 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: through generations. Darwin's theory has turned out to be the 267 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: scientifically valid one. Lamarck has been disproven. Medical students should 268 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: definitely understand this and see evidence of it during their studies. Hence, 269 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: says of the students they tested them going into medical 270 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: school on their belief system and regarding evolution, and they're 271 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: specifically looking at beliefs that are Lamarchian versus beliefs that 272 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: are Darwinian. Then they're going through medical school where they 273 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: are using by oology on a regular basis, and they're 274 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: learning all these different things and they measure them coming 275 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: out of med school and the people who came in 276 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: with Lamarckian beliefs left with Lamarchian beliefs. So for the 277 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: Lamarchian students, despite a period of study during which their 278 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: views on evolution are demonstrated to be wrong, they still 279 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: persist in their beliefs. Even when we get information that 280 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: disconfirms our beliefs, we tend to process it in a 281 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: way that doesn't challenge those beliefs. We get this new 282 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: information and we put it in the same old boxes. 283 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: We put it in the same cubbyholes. It takes a 284 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: lot for us to build a new cubbyhole to put 285 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: things into. This dynamic cuts both ways. Of course, it 286 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: can be hard to shake believers from their beliefs, But 287 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: from the believer point of view, the same can be 288 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: said of skeptics. And that's a common criticism that abduction 289 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: proponents level at scientists. They aren't willing or aren't able 290 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: to expand their notion of what could be real. Dr 291 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: Don Dondry. If you take a giant ship out to 292 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: Tierragui ol Fuego, which is the south end of South 293 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: America and you and your big wooden ship from Europe 294 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: go exploring. The natives don't even pay attention to the ship. 295 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: What they pay attention to is these little robots that 296 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: come out from the ship, because they've never seen a rowboat, 297 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: but they have these little rafts, so the robot for 298 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: them is an improvement on the raft. They can imagine 299 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 1: that the ship is something out of their imagination. They 300 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: don't even pay attention to it. So science, in quotes, 301 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: doesn't pay attention to what science has no clue at understanding. 302 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: That goes for point nine percent of all the professional 303 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: scientists employed in say the US and Canada. It's basically 304 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: a forbidden topic because it doesn't fit in science. The 305 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: facts don't fit in science. There's no theory connecting those 306 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: facts with what else we knew, and so scientists shrug 307 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: their shoulders, let the craziest deal with it. That's it. 308 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: There is no science. I can understand the frustration. It's 309 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: not just that the scientific world is dismissive of this work, 310 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: but that doing scientific work on this topic is very difficult. 311 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: Simply put, there's essentially no money to fund the research. 312 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: There isn't a major government grants program to which someone 313 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: interested in investigating the reality of alien abductions can apply 314 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: for funding. But here's the thing. It's been almost fifty 315 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: years since the Hill abduction, and to my knowledge, there's 316 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: no single piece of physical evidence that you can point 317 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: to and say, look, this proves that an abduction occurred. 318 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: There's nothing that's been found that would seem to warrant 319 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: a government's funding of research into abductions. Yet despite this 320 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: lack of evidence, there remains the public perception that extraterrestrials 321 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: are visiting US. I talked with Kendrick Fraser, who is 322 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: the founder of the magazine Skeptical Enquirer, the magazine for 323 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: Science and Reason. I asked him about the difference between 324 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: the public perception of extraterrestrial visitors and scientists perception. It's 325 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: an incredible gap of understanding between what the scientific view 326 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: of this subject is and what the popular believer's point 327 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: of view is. What's also interesting to me is both 328 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: are motivated by the same curiosity. Astronomical scientists deeply what also, 329 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: I think to discover any signs of intelligence life in 330 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: the universe, and we have many programs trying to do that. 331 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: At the same time, they know that in the public 332 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: this is a strong belief and desire also. But scientists 333 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: are trained to be critical of evidence and not to 334 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: accept things on face value, whereas many people in the 335 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: public who are interested in these things put their skeptical 336 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: side aside because they want to believe in this so much. 337 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: And we have found this is to be a great 338 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: danger in science. Think about Carol Rainey's assessment of Bud 339 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: hopkins work on the Linda cortill A case. He wanted 340 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: so badly to prove what he believed to be happening. 341 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: He wanted to prove that it was actually happening, and 342 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: that he had evidence. This seemed to me a recurring 343 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: issue in the abduction research field. In the absence of 344 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: physical or substantial third person an eyewitness evidence, researchers would 345 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: latch onto whatever corroboration they could. Thus the use of 346 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: regression hypnosis as evidence, or Marjorie Fish's construction of the 347 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: star map models. This has to be worked out, so 348 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: I have to figure out the absolute magnitude through all 349 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: these stars, or the photos of body marks sent to 350 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: Bud Hopkins. These are very characteristic and this is the 351 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: scoop mark rather than the straight line cut. It's science like, 352 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: but not with the same rigorous standards as science. The 353 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: collective enterprise of creative thinking and skeptical thinking working together 354 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: keeps the field on track. So as exciting as this 355 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: subject is, as interesting it is, as fascinating it is, 356 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: those are signs that wishful thinking can go and take 357 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: us out of reality. And it's something most scientists and 358 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: certainly psychological scientists are well aware of. But it's something 359 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: that I think more people who are fascinated with the 360 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: subject as fans need to be aware of exercise critical 361 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: thinking and skepticism towards these ideas. Scientists haven't found any 362 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 1: evidence of extra trastial intelligence, and yet the mythology is 363 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: that we have and and they're coming, and they're here, 364 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: and they've been here, and they're here all the time. 365 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: The Betty and Barney Hill case requires this skepticism. The 366 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: reality for me is that most, but not all, components 367 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: of their story have convincing non extraterrestrial explanations. The regression 368 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: hypnosis elicited the story of Betty's dreams. The Hills mistook 369 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: the light on top of Cannon Mountain for a UFO 370 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: slow driving and numerous stops account for the missing time, 371 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: but the explanations for parts of the story seem a 372 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: little less plausible. Well, I understand that wind up watches 373 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: were easily broken, it seems like quite a coincidence that 374 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: both Betty and Barney would break their watches at the 375 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: same time in this way, and even the best explanations 376 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: of the craft hovering above a field near Indian Head 377 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: rely on Betty and Barney to be at near hallucinatory 378 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: levels of fatigue and stress. The reality, though, is that 379 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: the onus is not on skeptics to disprove every point 380 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: of the story. For an event this incredible, there needs 381 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: to be real evidence, not just a story that is 382 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: hard to explain away at points. The absence of a 383 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: completely satisfying answer to what they saw in the field 384 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: does not mean there was an alien spacecraft. The burden 385 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: of scientific proof lies with proponents of extraordinary stories. I 386 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: remember that Carl Sagan said, at the heart of science 387 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes and 388 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive, 389 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: and the most ruthlessly skeptical scrutiny of all ideas old 390 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from 391 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: deep nonsense. Although I am skeptical of the reality of 392 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: the Hill abduction story, I think it's important to acknowledge 393 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: their contribution to popular culture. They and particularly Betty, created 394 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: a narrative of alien abduction so compelling that it has 395 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: proven durable for half a century. Through all the changes 396 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: over the years, the core of abduction tales, whether purportedly 397 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: real or fictional, has remained true to the story of 398 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: the events of September nine. It's an astonishing legacy of 399 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: cultural influence to emerge from a late night drive through 400 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: the mountains of New Hampshire. Next week, on a bonus 401 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: episode of Strange Arrivals, my interview with Sarah Schools, author 402 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: of They Are Already Here, UFO Culture and Why We 403 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: See Saucers. There was also a CIA sponsored panel called 404 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: the Robertson Panel, and in their Scientists and Military Personnel, 405 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: we're specifically looking at the effects that UFOs and UFO 406 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: reports might have on people and chaos and panic, and 407 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: they essentially said, if we get too many UFO reports, 408 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: it might clog our intelligence channels and it might cause 409 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, hysteria in the streets. So what we need 410 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: to do is essentially make propaganda to tell people not 411 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: to worry about UFOs. And so just throughout history for 412 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: decades and decades, you have these instances of the government 413 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: trying to manipulate public opinion and interpretation of UFOs, but 414 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: then also saying like we have no interest in them 415 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and neither should you, and it just leaves people feeling 416 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: like they can't trust the government on the topic I 417 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: think and they're not wrong. Strange Arrivals is a production 418 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. 419 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: This episode was written and hosted by Toby Ball and 420 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with executive producers 421 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, Matt Frederick and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was 422 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: portrayed by Gina Rickikey. Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. 423 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the Miln's Special Collections and Archives at 424 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y Am 425 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: in Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and David O'Leary, the executive 426 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project Blue Book 427 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: learn more about the show over at grimm and mil 428 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: dot com. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit 429 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 430 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.