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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did

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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff, the podcast about people who had problems and

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Speaker 1: then tried to solve those problems. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: and my guest today is the one and only Robert Evans.

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Speaker 1: Hello Robert Evans, Hello Margaret Kiljoy. It's always fun to

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Speaker 1: refer to your friends by the first and last name.

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Speaker 2: It's how we know that.

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Speaker 1: You're proper and formal and formal is normal exactly. That

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Speaker 1: is what we've been saying for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: and why we're both wearing very nice evening dresses.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have a full tweed suit. It's actually a

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Speaker 2: four piece suit. A lot of people don't know about

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Speaker 2: the fourth piece that a suit can have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's.

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Speaker 2: Not a happy suit I wear. No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's a secret third thing.

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Speaker 1: But if you listen to our second ad break, there'll

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Speaker 1: be an ad for the secret fourth piece of the suit.

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Speaker 2: That's everyone you've ever seen in a three piece suit

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Speaker 2: not doing it right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just a We actually learned this from the Men's

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Speaker 1: War Twitter purs anyway. So our producer is Sophie Lichtermann. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Sophie Hi. Our audio engineer is Danel. Our theme music

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Speaker 1: was written for us by un woman. I never forget

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Speaker 1: this part of the introduction when I don't put it

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Speaker 1: in the script. If it wasn't in the previous one,

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Speaker 1: it was maliciously cut out by I can't blame Daniel

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Speaker 1: Hi to Daniel Hi, Danel Hi, Daniel Hey, Daniel, I'm

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Speaker 1: having a day, Roberts having a day.

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Speaker 2: We're doing great, sure for sure.

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Speaker 1: Every well, sometimes when you have problems, you can solve

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Speaker 1: them through a combination of words and machine guns. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where we last left are literally globe circling hero. I

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Speaker 1: can't say globe trotting hero because I don't know about

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Speaker 1: the literalness of her gait.

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Speaker 2: It might have been a canter.

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Speaker 1: Marussia Nikki Farova. She had fled one failed revolution and

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Speaker 1: then returned to give another one a go over in Russia,

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Speaker 1: and she's just moved back to Ukraine. She heads on

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Speaker 1: home to Alexandrovsk, the local capital of its region, and

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Speaker 1: joins the Alexandrovsk Confederation of Anarchist Groups, which at the

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Speaker 1: time is about three hundred people, which is not enough

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Speaker 1: to pretend like you know that everyone agrees with you.

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Speaker 1: That's not enough people. But they're not getting enough done

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Speaker 1: for her taste. It is time to shake things up

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Speaker 1: and by that doing what she does best, agitation among

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Speaker 1: the workers and soldiers, combined with militant direct action and

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Speaker 1: support of existing above ground organizational structures, doing a revolution.

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Speaker 1: So she goes around and talks to everyone about how

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Speaker 1: cool anarchy is. And also, while she's at it, robs

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Speaker 1: the vodka distillery. Yeah, there we go, probably for having

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Speaker 1: given her a fake job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: I like to think it's like, you know how in

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Speaker 1: European countries that are like way better at actually bringing

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Speaker 1: the bottles back, Like in the Netherlands.

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Speaker 2: You'd be around the glass and you could tell other

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Speaker 2: people of drag from it.

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, exactly, and you feel like you're part of

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Speaker 1: a long tradition of people consuming poison, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, she robbed a million rubles, which, as we've determined

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Speaker 1: as a fake number, but a way higher number than

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Speaker 1: all of the other robberies that we've discussed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is finally sounding like some real money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at least some of the money she gives to

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Speaker 1: the local Soviet I'm inferring that the rest went to

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Speaker 1: her anarchist Federation or who knows, maybe she was this

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Speaker 1: lady was not keeping a second summer home never mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean everyone does kind of have them in

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Speaker 2: that part of the world. Yeahoy's got a little statcha.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe she's just up in her datcha a little bit,

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Speaker 2: you know yourself. Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because I like wouldn't even be mad,

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Speaker 1: but I think that this person has given her entire

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Speaker 1: being to this revolution. Yeah, and she's in the local capital.

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Speaker 1: But Alexandrovsk is near a small town called Guye Poya,

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Speaker 1: which is about seventeen thousand people living there. One of

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Speaker 1: the people living there is another anarchist, one of the

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Speaker 1: most famous anarchist generals in history and a rather important

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Speaker 1: figure in Ukrainian history, a man named Nester Makno. There

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Speaker 1: we go and tonaw, we're gonna talk about Nester Maknow,

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Speaker 1: which Robert has never heard of. No, I didn't totally

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Speaker 1: re listen to the podcast about Nester Makno that Robert

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Speaker 1: did with Jamie Laftas before researching this episode. So Nestor

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Speaker 1: was a few years younger than Maryusia, either one year

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Speaker 1: or three years. Because history is full of mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Ah, you love to hear a story from this time

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Speaker 2: period where neither person is clearly a pedophile.

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Speaker 1: That's true. They're also not going to date. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: later we're actually going to talk about Makno's wives.

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Speaker 2: There's my man.

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Speaker 1: But it's important that he's not a pedophile because his

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Speaker 1: nickname is Botko, which means father.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which I famously lied to Jamie Loftus about for

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Speaker 2: the sake of saving the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Because otherwise it would have just been Jamie talking about

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Speaker 1: how his name making daddy making daddy jokes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it had to be done.

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Speaker 1: I am guessing this nickname came later. He probably wasn't

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Speaker 1: running around as a little rug rat named dad, but

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Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe he was set. Maybe it was nominative determinism.

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Speaker 1: You know. His path looks a lot like his friend Maria's,

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Speaker 1: although he spent more time in actual jail instead of

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Speaker 1: jail for a moment before breaking out. No offense to him.

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Speaker 1: He just was not as successful at prison breaks. And

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Speaker 1: we know a lot more about his life than we

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Speaker 1: knew about Marusia's. He was born the youngest of five kids.

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Speaker 1: His parents, Ivan and Evdokia had been owned by a

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Speaker 1: guy because surfdom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Therefore, Nestor started working when he was seven, tending livestock.

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Speaker 1: He got almost two years of schooling in like working

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Speaker 1: part time after school, you know, but he liked to

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Speaker 1: play hooky to go ice skating, And then when he

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Speaker 1: was ten, playtime is over time for full time labor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. Ten, that sounds about right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm totally that's for some weird reason, he developed

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Speaker 1: an early understanding of class, something about working full time

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Speaker 1: for physically abusive bosses combined with stories from his mom

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Speaker 1: about what it was like to be owned by a guy.

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Speaker 1: When he was fourteen, he saw the landlord's son beating

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Speaker 1: up a stable hand, and his older stable hand helped

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Speaker 1: lead a revolt on the local farm. Anyway, after this,

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Speaker 1: he bounces around between jobs. So he finds his favorite

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Speaker 1: job one he's very good at anarchist revolutionary, but once again,

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Speaker 1: he kind of gets into the job before it's a

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Speaker 1: good idea. When the nineteen oh five revolution broke out,

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Speaker 1: he joined his town's anarchist communist group, the Union of

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Speaker 1: Poor Peasants, which is the only good name of a

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Speaker 1: group we have run across so far in this appe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a solid one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It started as a book club. Soon they're getting

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Speaker 1: into shootouts. I'm under the impression and I think that

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Speaker 1: you talked about this part of it too, where it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like you're kind of like you show up

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Speaker 1: to the book club and once you prove your worth,

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Speaker 1: then you get invited to the shootout club.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, although I do like to think that just

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Speaker 2: like reading the right books leads inevitably to getting into shootouts,

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Speaker 2: Like if we if we could get enough people to

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Speaker 2: read the Pelican Brief, could we could wind up like

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Speaker 2: forging some sort of rebellion.

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Speaker 1: Historically that is that carries it out.

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Speaker 2: I think the Pelican Brief is what's going to do

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Speaker 2: it too.

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Speaker 1: I think so if not, it'll be some other animal

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Speaker 1: themed book. So soon enough, Nestor and his friends are

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Speaker 1: getting into shootout. They're stealing money to print propaganda, and

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Speaker 1: they're just robbinhood the shit out of everyone. Eventually, the

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Speaker 1: book club finds a police informant in their ranks, so

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Speaker 1: they kill that informant, and for some weird reason, Makno

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Speaker 1: is arrested. I think that there was some kind of

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Speaker 1: like specific Czarist era law where you weren't allowed to

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Speaker 1: kill police informants during that time.

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Speaker 2: Interesting. Interesting, Yeah, it's a weird law. Yeah, usually police

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Speaker 2: love it when you kill their informants. It's fucking tar.

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Speaker 2: That's how we know it was worse then than it

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Speaker 2: is now. Yeah that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Makno is convicted and sentenced to death. He

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Speaker 1: refuses to appeal. They commute his sentence anyway because he's

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Speaker 1: a little young guy, just a little tyke under twenty one,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: Get on out of here, you little scamp.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just going to prison, but we're not going

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Speaker 1: to kill you. And so he goes off to anarchist

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Speaker 1: finishing school aka prison. He probably this is where he

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Speaker 1: learns how to read and write more, although he's in

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Speaker 1: book club and so I like, I wonder about this

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Speaker 1: half literate thing, But.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if that's just that they had higher

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Speaker 2: standards for literacy back then, like literary, like if you

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Speaker 2: were literated, it meant that, like you you could recite

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Speaker 2: all your I don't know is Tolstoy no he yeah,

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Speaker 2: he like didn't know ancient Greek. Yeah, yeah, he had

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Speaker 2: some Latin and like he could read it, but not

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Speaker 2: speak it. Yeah, it's one of those things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: His Latin was tenth year at best. Yeah, couldn't even

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Speaker 2: translate the neid from Latin to Greek. What a fool,

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Speaker 2: I know, it wasn't even had it was even seen

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Speaker 2: this guy's Sanskrit bush league.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the real reason why people didn't always Actually

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Speaker 1: incredibly charming and people join him in a massive revolution.

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Speaker 1: But he runs into a friend of the pod in

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Speaker 1: prison named Tuberculosis Classic, which spoiler alert, is going to

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Speaker 1: kill him about twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how tuberculosis do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He has a reputation as sort of arrogant and swaggering.

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Speaker 1: Other prisoners give him the nickname Modest, like oh, there's

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Speaker 1: Modest Mackno. Yeah, but because of what he represents. Okay,

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Speaker 1: The problem with Maria Nikki Farova is no one knows

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Speaker 1: anything about her except some people who are lying. The

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Speaker 1: problem with Nestor Mackno is everyone knows everything about him

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Speaker 1: and everyone is lying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that sounds he sounds like it major historical figure. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: He is argued about and vilified, and it is hard

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Speaker 3: to parse out exactly right because there's people who want

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Speaker 3: to paint him as a self centered, arrogant drunk.

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Speaker 1: Who murders everyone. Yeah, terrible bandit. And then there's other

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Speaker 1: people where it's like he's never even heard of alcohol

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Speaker 1: and he is a saint, like literally canonized by Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I assume he's from Orthodoxy as saints. Yeah, yeah, probably

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Speaker 1: there's the yeah, yeah that makes sense, and other to

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Speaker 1: anarchist historians, you know, he might be this like amazing

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Speaker 1: perfect figure. To anarchist at the time, it seemed like

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Speaker 1: he was impressive and people kind of liked him, and

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Speaker 1: he was also a bit too into himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that makes sense. I mean I've always every time

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Speaker 2: you like read about it. And the area that he

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Speaker 2: you know, his forces managed is called is like named

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Speaker 2: after him. Yeah, that is a little bit of a like, well,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like this guy probably was

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Speaker 2: a little full of himself. I also don't know that

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Speaker 2: someone who isn't can can can do that right totally.

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Speaker 2: It's like you need generals if you're going to do

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Speaker 2: a war. You need some people who are going to

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Speaker 2: like and those people are probably going to be a

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Speaker 2: specific kind of crazy, and you know, some of them

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Speaker 2: in a way that is all of them in a

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Speaker 2: way that's sometimes bad. But only certain kinds of people

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Speaker 2: are capable of leading thousands of commanding thousands and ten

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Speaker 2: of thousands of people to go die. Yep. So I

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Speaker 2: don't know, try to avoid war. Yeah no.

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Speaker 1: And it's like yeah when I And it's like I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of like you know, modern especially

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Speaker 1: modern anarchists, sort of avoid calling that area like Makinov

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Speaker 1: China because they like, well, doesn't sound great, you know,

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Speaker 1: because even like even Lenin, I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 1: get Lenin grad, but that's I think that's after he died,

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Speaker 1: Like Lenin wasn't like Lenin's Soviet Union.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you have to you have to have it's

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Speaker 2: like that, you have to have someone force you. This

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Speaker 2: goes back to Caesar, right where Caesar's whole thing is, Oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, they tried to make me king three times

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Speaker 2: and I turned him down, you know every time. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's that's the kind of guy I am. And it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: you made him, You made him do that so that

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Speaker 2: you could turn it down because that's what you wanted

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Speaker 2: to do. You just understood how it looks.

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Speaker 1: And that is roughly Makno's deal. He is going to

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Speaker 1: end up like elected fairly as far as I can tell,

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Speaker 1: to the leader of like all kinds of unions and

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Speaker 1: soviets throughout his life and he is elected general, he

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Speaker 1: is like like people are into him and that's why

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Speaker 1: he's in charge. Absolutely, but he like he he often

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Speaker 1: painted as like, oh, well I really didn't want to,

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Speaker 1: but they made me do it. And then like other

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Speaker 1: folks from immediately, like Mariusia is like, no, you keep

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Speaker 1: putting yourself in charge and setting things up so that

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Speaker 1: you're in charge, and it's kind of annoying. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: then again he kind of pulls it off. And the

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Speaker 1: reason that this thing failed has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the fact that he was in charge.

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Speaker 2: No, it was probably just kind of an impossible situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The reason that this thing failed is that,

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Speaker 1: as we're going to talk about, they are fighting events

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Speaker 1: about four different armies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of armies. Yeah, they made at

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Speaker 2: least one of them, like one and a half something

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Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, no, they do, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a reason you could say that Makno's Black

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Speaker 1: Army is the reason and that the revolution didn't lose.

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Speaker 2: Because they beat the the What is it the Austrian

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Speaker 2: occupiers and then the whites.

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Speaker 1: They beat first the Nationalists, then the Australia occupiers, and

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Speaker 1: then the whites. Yeah, they beat everyone but the final

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Speaker 1: boss of the revolution, which is always the Bolsheviks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they should have kept a couple of power ups.

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Speaker 2: But I know, I'm back seat Russian civil warring.

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Speaker 1: It's hard not to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So at the moment he's in prison and he's modest makno.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the Russian word is here. It

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Speaker 1: might have been modest nestor, but modest makno is more

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Speaker 1: fun in English. He's released with the other political prisoners

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Speaker 1: in March nineteen seventeen. During the revolution, he goes to

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Speaker 1: Moscow for a little while, and then his mom is like,

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Speaker 1: are you you're fucking kidding me? Right? Eight years? Eight years?

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Speaker 1: You're gonna fucking visit or what? And so, like Mariusia,

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Speaker 1: he goes home. She goes home to her big, bustling

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Speaker 1: regional city, and he goes to his village of seventeen

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Speaker 1: thousand people. Yeah, whereupon he started organizing his village into

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Speaker 1: an anarchist village. He actually kind of broke with the

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Speaker 1: other regional anarchists who are staying to stay a little safe.

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Speaker 1: I think they were a little like, we're just kind

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Speaker 1: of into propaganda now because we keep losing shootouts and

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Speaker 1: we don't like being dead. That's my best guess. So

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Speaker 1: he organizes a peasants union and he wounds up the

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Speaker 1: chairman of it, and some versions are like, oh, he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be a leader, but folks insisted, and

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Speaker 1: others are like, yeah, the man wanted to be in

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Speaker 1: charge of non hierarchical organizations and managed to do it.

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Speaker 1: But whatever. Overall it was chill. There's no I've never

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Speaker 1: read anything at all reputable saying he misused his positions

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Speaker 1: of power. And soon enough he is in charge of

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Speaker 1: the town, or rather the peasants union is in charge

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Speaker 1: of the town. But it's not yet full revolution time.

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Speaker 1: He's organizing with the unions and they strike for demands

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Speaker 1: like give us twice the money or we'll kill you,

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Speaker 1: which is a pretty strong demand to come into organizing with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is a nice place to start from.

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Speaker 1: And it worked, and wages went up, and they're not

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Speaker 1: yet expropriating the rich, right, they were like, we want

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Speaker 1: better wages. This is now our factory. Yeah, but the

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Speaker 1: peasants aren't supposed to be in charge at all. So

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Speaker 1: he has tensions with the larger regional provisional government, you know,

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Speaker 1: the half revolutionary government. He also has tension with some

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Speaker 1: of the other anarchists because they're like, well, you have

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Speaker 1: all this, why aren't you doing it? Like I thought,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea is that we like go right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and one of his biggest critics. But I suspect also

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Speaker 1: based on like what I'm about to describe, he gets

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Speaker 1: like Mary Lucia gets presented as one of his biggest critics.

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Speaker 1: It sure seems like they are friends and co revolutionary

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Speaker 1: who respect one another, is what I actually read in

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Speaker 1: the text. Despite the historians being like most of the

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Speaker 1: historians like Mackno more than they like Mariusium. Sure, if

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Speaker 1: Markno is a mythical figure in terms of how he's

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Speaker 1: written into all the histories of the time, literally anarchist

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Speaker 1: country named after him, Marisy is mythical, and how she's

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Speaker 1: written into history as more of like a pure angel

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Speaker 1: of anarchy and retribution. I can't tell how much of

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Speaker 1: this is myth making and how much is true, but

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. So we're going to go with it as

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Speaker 1: a sort of narrative around it. I'm way more of

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Speaker 1: a Mackno girl in terms of my own actual like

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Speaker 1: moderate positions like disarm the police and rob the rich

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Speaker 1: rather than kill them. All right, Yeah, Marcy is presented

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Speaker 1: in contrast, is like the kill the cops, kill the

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Speaker 1: rich as a sort of foil for Mackno.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the antithesis, synthesis, all that good stuff

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Speaker 2: that that dialectic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I guess the dialectic kill some of the cops and

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Speaker 2: some of the rich people, which is what they go for,

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Speaker 2: and it is probably the most effective way to do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think she's more of like a stern mentor who

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Speaker 1: operated to keep his moral compass away from wielding power.

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Speaker 1: And there's like one narrative, there's one story that's a

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Speaker 1: little bit like her being like, hell, yeah, kill this guy,

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Speaker 1: and mack Know's like no, And we'll talk about that

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Speaker 1: in a second. But like most of the time, it

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Speaker 1: seems like the main thing she's whispering into his ear

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Speaker 1: is it's time to step it up. You've created these structures,

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Speaker 1: You've putting yourself into positions of power, you have to

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Speaker 1: do something with it, and kind of like the better

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Speaker 1: angel of his conscience in a way of yeah, but

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Speaker 1: also the destroying angel.

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Speaker 2: Of the worst. It's weird because any part of why

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Speaker 2: I'm drawn to anarchism in so many anarchists is that

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Speaker 2: you get these guys Mack Know's one of them. Jose

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Speaker 2: the Uruguayan president we talked about as another of them,

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Speaker 2: where they're these guys who are like if I was

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Speaker 2: in that same position, I would have probably supported killing

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Speaker 2: a lot more people. Spartacus would be like my earliest

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Speaker 2: I mean, the concept of anarchism didn't exist, but I

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Speaker 2: think he embodied it of like a oh wow, you

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Speaker 2: really were in a position to kill a lot of

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Speaker 2: people with total justification, and you didn't do it because

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Speaker 2: it's better not to kill people if you can avoid

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Speaker 2: it usually. But also all of those people do lose,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know, but so people who killed everybody,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this is interesting then, right, because like if

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Speaker 1: I do an episode about Maurusium and in some ways

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Speaker 1: I am way more of a like like I don't

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Speaker 1: actually think it was justified for the Allies to bomb

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Speaker 1: German cities in World War Two.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, although I think it's also one of those

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Speaker 2: things where there was less data for a large portion

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Speaker 2: of that. There was a point well before the end

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Speaker 2: of the war where we knew it was not working right,

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Speaker 2: but there was also a point where it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, what else are you going to try?

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Speaker 1: Right? Well, and so it's like I have this like

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Speaker 1: more first work backwards from their framework, and so I

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Speaker 1: find myself interested in this figure of like fuck it

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Speaker 1: kill them all, you know, whereas I'm much more of

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Speaker 1: a mackno person at heart. And so then you're looking

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Speaker 1: for tempering, right, because yeah, I've heard you on your

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Speaker 1: podcast talk about being like, if we killed a lot

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Speaker 1: more of the Nazis after the war, the war might

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Speaker 1: have you.

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Speaker 2: Know, yeah, well the after the war might have gone better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, it's no, it's just interesting to me

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Speaker 1: the what we're drawn towards, and you know, and I

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Speaker 1: find both of these figures and the conversations between them

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Speaker 1: to be just absolutely fascinating interesting. So Mariucia goes to

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Speaker 1: Gulia Poye, the small town, and it's like, hey, are

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Speaker 1: you more concerned with being in Charger and spreading anarchism

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Speaker 1: and some of the critique is like, hey, you're also

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Speaker 1: being too soft on the landlords, right, you're letting them

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Speaker 1: continue to be the landlords. But some of it was also, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're micromanaging, like learn how to actually try us the

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00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 1: people that in these structures that we're building, and she

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Speaker 1: kept pushing him towards revolt without delay. She said, quote,

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Speaker 1: we should move immediately to liberate the people from the

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Speaker 1: oppression of a modern state, to achieve a political overthrow

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Speaker 1: that aims to give self government to the people and

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Speaker 1: ensure a social revolution. By not doing anything, we perpetuate

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Speaker 1: capital and if it continues on this path, we risk

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Speaker 1: forgetting our real role. And almost all of the direct

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Speaker 1: quotes we have from her are from Mackno because I

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Speaker 1: don't think anyone wrote about her more than Mackno did.

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Speaker 2: Which speaks well of him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, like her being gone from the history is

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Speaker 1: not on Macno. And you know, the anarchists and Golie

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Speaker 1: Pollie were like, well, we're going to build our thing

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Speaker 1: and slowly spread it, but not antagonize the provisional government

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Speaker 1: more broadly or make more enemies than we need to,

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Speaker 1: which is like makes some strategic sense, whereas Mariusia is like,

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Speaker 1: social revolution. Now, overthrow the provisional government, smash the nationalists,

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Speaker 1: let's fucking go. But you know, the villagers had actually

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Speaker 1: been more successful than she had in her city, So

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Speaker 1: who knows, right and the most set for a movie

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Speaker 1: visualization of this tension. She's given a speech in town

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Speaker 1: square in the village and Makno gets two telegrams, one

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Speaker 1: from the revolutionary governments, from both the provisional government and

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Speaker 1: the Soviet and these telegrams are like, hey, the White army,

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Speaker 1: the forces of reaction that are going to go against

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Speaker 1: the revolutionary government are attacking. We need everyone to set

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Speaker 1: up militias and fight them off. And so he gets

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Speaker 1: these things, and someone in the crowd when he tells

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Speaker 1: everyone like, hey, hold on, we have this news. You know,

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Speaker 1: someone in the crowd is like, we have social enemies

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Speaker 1: right here. The former chief of police is right here

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Speaker 1: in this crowd listening, and so they kind of are like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's kill the ex cop. And in one version of

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Speaker 1: the story, mari Yucia comes down and sort of arrests

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Speaker 1: the cop right and Makna is like, no, you can't

432
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: do that. The exit part of the cop is very

433
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: important and saves the guy's life from mob violence.

434
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: And I do think there's a you know, there's there's

435
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: tactical wisdom in that, right, it's the same reason why

436
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: you don't it's not wise to be like we don't

437
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: take prisoners. Well, then they have no they're only they

438
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: have no reason to do anything but fight to the death,

439
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 2: which is bad for you totally.

440
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: There's a The Art of War is one of my

441
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: favorite books. Is I'm that kind of nerd, And there's like,

442
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: don't encircle your enemy completely is like a fundamental rule

443
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: of warfare, because you need to give them a chance

444
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: to run, even if you want to kill them all.

445
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: You circle them up almost completely, give them one place

446
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: to run, and then kill them all while they run. Yeah,

447
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: so this man is not killed the degree to which

448
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: Mariucia was going to kill him, I don't know.

449
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I wonder if it's also something they worked

450
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: out together, like you try to kill the guy, I'll

451
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: save them. This will this will do good for the

452
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: cops who are kind of on the fence. Should we

453
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 2: should we bounce? Should we get out of the job? Right,

454
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: it might have been like why wouldn't you, right, that's

455
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: not a bad tactic. And these are smart people.

456
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're I love that version, and I wouldn't

457
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: put it past them.

458
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: These the goal is less cops and also less of

459
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: your guys getting shot. I don't know that makes sense

460
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: to me.

461
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And both of these people prove to be strategic masterminds, yes,

462
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: who win against impossible odds over and over again. In

463
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: response to the invasion of the White Army, and perhaps

464
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: in response to Mariusia's speech, the anarchist town of guy

465
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: Poye takes over its own means of production. The workers

466
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: are now in charge of the factories. It's no longer

467
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: pay us twice as much. It's literally just stop extracting

468
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: value from us. They start expropriating all the large landowners

469
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: and they distribute everything equally, including equally back to those

470
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: rich families. Right, you get your two cows and a

471
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: plow or whatever it is. Sure, And at this point

472
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: they disarm all the cops and the provisional government. Their

473
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: communal committees are actually kept around, but as an advisory group,

474
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: much like we work with a No, we don't this

475
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: is no. They have no advisory No.

476
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: This was a.

477
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: They ignored power much like we ignore the adverb. No, wait,

478
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: we love our ad whatever.

479
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: Here's yeah, here's some ads.

480
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: And we're back, so our angel of vengeance, she's got

481
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: one more thing to do while she's still in town.

482
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: She's like, hey, y'all, y'all need better weapons. You got

483
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: the cops and the landlord's guns, but those are like

484
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: they have like revolvers and hunting rifles. Basically, yeah, so

485
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: it's not like disarming the cops in the modern era

486
00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: where you would have an arsenal. Probably artillery. Good enough,

487
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: they're gonna have artillery. She gathers up two hundred fighters

488
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: with only a dozen rifles and some handguns between them,

489
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: and storms the nearby barracks, and the rank and file

490
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: is like, fuck, yeah, yeah, we totally surrender and we'll

491
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: join the revolution. We like you more than we like

492
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: our officers. And the officers are like, wait, this isn't

493
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: how we wish it was happening, because Mariusia walks around

494
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: and shoots them all, personally executing all of the officers

495
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: when they rob them of their guns.

496
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: Well you know where she stands, yep, with you as

497
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 2: she shoots you in the back of the head.

498
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, for her being part of the quote cast of

499
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: commanding officers is a death sentence. Death to the aristocracy

500
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: and the officers and zaris Russia came from a separate

501
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: social class in the works, Oh yes, yeah, yeah, and

502
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: oh that gets real complicated. Her dad as an officer,

503
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 1: I could see it.

504
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean one of the revolutionaries that James

505
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: and I met fighting against the government of me was

506
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: the daughter of one of the generals leading the junta

507
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: who got airstriked, presumably on his orders in the jungle

508
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: with their friends. You know, although I don't think she

509
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: would have done this, but also was not in the

510
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: same the position. It's it's tough because I think I

511
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: probably I think me, being the kind of moral actor

512
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: that I actually am, if I was in her position,

513
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: probably would have supported her doing this. I think me,

514
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: being the kind of moral actor that I want to be,

515
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: would say, you shouldn't execute unarmed people if you can

516
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: avoid it. But you know they are also this is different, right,

517
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: Like these are not just you're not fighting a war.

518
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 2: These are not like captured people in a war.

519
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: They don't have a pow camp to take them to.

520
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: This is the ruling. This is the people who rule

521
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: you and operate the instrument of your oppression. So I

522
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, yeah, I mean no wrong answers.

523
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: I guess there's no wrong ones and there's no right ones.

524
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, they and the rank and file

525
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: soldiers don't seem to be too upset by this.

526
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: No, I'm sure the officers were dicks.

527
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And so now they're really well armed, and

528
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: they start going around to factories being like, hey, you know,

529
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: we can just we can just like take this. There's

530
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: a revolution happening, we can everything is possible, And so

531
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: they just start spreading the revolution of did you know

532
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: that if you have guns you can be in charge

533
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: of your factory. Now, the provisional government is naturally enough

534
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: upset by this. Makno himself, the provisional government can't quite

535
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: arrest him because he's sort of he's actually officially in

536
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: charge of his area, because he's been elected by his

537
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: local Soviet and there's the dual power system going on, right. Sure,

538
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: but Mariusia, she's not elected to shit. I mean, she's

539
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: probably elected by her own the people that she's leading, right,

540
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: but it's not official. Yeah, So they just show up

541
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: and arrest her in the city she lives in, that

542
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: whose name might totally know how to pronounce and say

543
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,239
Speaker 1: when it's not written into my script. Starts with an

544
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: alex and ends with the doc. And so they show

545
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: up and arrest her, and people are like, nah, now,

546
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: you can't do that. That's Mary Yucia. You can't arrest her.

547
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: Because the people who actually supported her might not have

548
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: been the Soviet It might not have been the provisional government,

549
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: it was the entire city that she lived in. Workers

550
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: go on strike and storm the prison. The guards hand

551
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: her over to the crowd, who carry her on her

552
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: on their shoulders to the local Soviet.

553
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: Man, which is kind of feel good. Yeah, probably the

554
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: best way to leave a prison, Yeah, I would say so.

555
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Mackno and the anarchists in Goliepolia haven't heard that

556
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: she's free yet, right, So Mackno shows up with a

557
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: train full of armed anarchists ready to storm the prison himself.

558
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: Because not only did the people of the town arms

559
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: storm the prison, people from the nearby village with guns

560
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: also came to town to storm the prison.

561
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: Look, it's you know, it's like one of those viral

562
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: viral things we're seeing with these protests, sometimes everyone gets

563
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: a good idea all at the same time. It's an

564
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: idea his time has come. Yeah, it's storm the prison

565
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: and prison yeah, okay, cool.

566
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: They find out that she's already free, and they just

567
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: have a big party, like the entire city just like

568
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: throws a party.

569
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: Shit, we thought we were going to have to fight

570
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: some guys. That's yeah, exactly. What if instead of getting shot,

571
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: we get drunk. Let's all go clean glasses at the

572
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: vodka factory.

573
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it was this event that basically spread anarchism

574
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: to the city because it forced the workers into tention

575
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: with the provisional government. Workers in the city now demand

576
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: new elections to the Soviet and it goes much much

577
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: further left then. The October Revolution happened in November. In November,

578
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: are the more radical factions take over. The anarchists, the

579
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: Bolsheviks and the left srs declared all power to the

580
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: Soviets and disbanded the provisional government.

581
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

582
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: The thing that had already been happening grassroots radicals redistributing

583
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: the lands of the peasants and workers taking over their

584
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: factories was now official. Down in Ukraine, Marusia is really

585
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: excited about this and is like, well, there's one problem.

586
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: I think the Ukrainian nationalists are going to try and

587
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: have a counter revolution and we don't want that because yeah,

588
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: really fucking strategically for sure.

589
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: Sound as an aside, I do think that every phase

590
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: of this, you know, this whole the series of revolutions

591
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: that is the Russian Revolution, if you're doing like an

592
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: epic TV mini series of it, the proper way to like,

593
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: the proper way to do the soundtrack to every one

594
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: of these major scenes. Is Schools Out for Summer? Yes,

595
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: always the right song, Always the right song.

596
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, although I will say, have you

597
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: heard the Ukrainian anarchist song mother Anarchy Loves her Sons?

598
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: It's almost as good as School's Out for Summer? For sure,

599
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: I know similar messages. It's an also ran. It's a

600
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: very good song. People should check it out. I mean,

601
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: you want to understand, it's just going to sound like

602
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: Russian bombastic stuff. Oh, there's a bunch of good punk versions. Yeah,

603
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: it's a banger of the title, Yeah, I know, And

604
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 2: the lyrics just translate to like I'm only happy when

605
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: I'm killing my enemy and like I will find freedom

606
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: by looking down the sights of my machine gun and

607
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: like creeping through the dark with a knife that I

608
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: have made hot in the fire, which kind of there's

609
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: a reason that they use a lot of death imagery

610
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 2: in this particular group, because this is one of the

611
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: deadliest conflicts in human history, I think. But seven million

612
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: people die in the Russian Civil War. Yeah, they're going

613
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: to do a lot of that.

614
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: So before all of that, kind of at the start

615
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: of all of it, she sets up organizing what's called

616
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: the Black Guard. Basically, these are an because military units

617
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: ready to fight against the nationalists. We've talked about nationalism

618
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: way too often the show. It's messy as fuck. Even

619
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: the nationalism of oppressed people often gets really dark, although

620
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: not always. Ukrainian nationalists at this time have some good points.

621
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: Ukraine is, as you were talking about, is an oppressed

622
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: place that is like constantly being fucked over by Russia.

623
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: It is the place that grows the most food, and

624
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: Russia is using it to grow food and continually kind

625
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: of murdering people who were like, well, but we're not

626
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: really getting an even share out of this whole making

627
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: all of your food deal that we're.

628
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: Doing and They're like, well, you could just die, and

629
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: then what if.

630
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: We had Cossacks? How about that?

631
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? And Ukraine is culturally and ethnically not Russia, despite

632
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: what Russia to this day tries to insist, and Ukrainians,

633
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: understandably at the time, are like, what if we get

634
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: to speak Ukrainian instead of Russian?

635
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

636
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: And so there's this whole thing that happens where Bolsheviks

637
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: try to claim that makno is, especially Maria Niki forever,

638
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: actually we're Ukrainian nationalists and it's absolute nonsense. But the

639
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: kernel of truth is that they were often like, yeah,

640
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: we could speak Ukrainian instead of Russian.

641
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I do feel like, you know, there's that

642
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: great Orwell quote where he's like, when I see the

643
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I

644
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: don't have to ask whose side I'm on. It's like,

645
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: if I see a situation in which one side has

646
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: made the speaking of the native language of a group

647
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: of people illegal, well, those are the bad guys in

648
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: that conflict. Yeah. Absolutely, it's pretty easy. There's never a

649
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: good reason to ban people from speaking their language, right, totally.

650
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: So when we talk about Ukrainian nationalists. If you're a Bolshevik.

651
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: Later in you're writing history, everyone who's like, hey, what

652
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: if Ukraine belongs to Ukraine or the people who live

653
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: in Ukraine, they're suddenly a nationalist and a counter revolutionary.

654
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: Right. But at the time, when you said a Ukrainian nationalist,

655
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: what you meant were reactionary racists. The nationalist organizations at

656
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 1: the time were generally I don't think this is universal,

657
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: but and again I'm reading a specific set of histories

658
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: when I write this, but they're full of racists. They

659
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: were looking for Ukrainians without the polls, the Romanians, the Germans,

660
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: the Russians, and the Jews.

661
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: See, that's going to be a problem.

662
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: And they also wanted the rich people to keep their

663
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: rich people stuff.

664
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: Also a problem. Less of a problem than yeah so

665
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: the nationalists, but still a problem.

666
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, not great. I'm a big fan of the no

667
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: one gets an ethno state as like a default position

668
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: to start from. Yeah, so the nationalists take advantage of

669
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: the chaos to try and ethnically cleanse everywhere they can,

670
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: which always extra means attacking Jews as well as in

671
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: this case defending the landowners against expropriations. Sure, but the

672
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: nationalists had a problem, like all of the people who

673
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: would shoot them whenever they tried to do it, Like

674
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: Marusia's Blackguards, for example, who in more than one city

675
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: directly and through violence, stopped the nationalists from doing their racism.

676
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: In Alexandrovsk, that city whose name I never forgot, the anarchists,

677
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: the left srs, and the Bolsheviks all worked together that

678
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: winter to overthrow the nationalists and start doing socialism. They

679
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: went around and they directly liberated and redistributed goods, which

680
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: is to say, they looted and then shared. And this

681
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: is like the Maria Niki ferovas special, like you know,

682
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: she's shown up in town when like you're breaking out

683
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: the store windows and sharing things. At this point, the

684
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: nascent Red Army wasn't a Bolshevik thing. It was an

685
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: all the socialists thing, and Marusia's force, the Blackguards were

686
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: part of the Red Army, and they marched north I

687
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: think this is December nineteen seventeen and liberated the city

688
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: of Kharkoff from the nationalists. The Black Guards were the

689
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: first into the city, much like anarchist partisans would later

690
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: be the first to liberate Paris from the Nazis. You

691
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: can read this as we're so brave and we're always

692
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: willing to be the first through the breach. You can

693
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: read this as I wonder why we keep getting used

694
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: as useful idiots by other forces. But it's something to

695
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: be proud of. The Bolsheviks who were mostly from Russia

696
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: and they were not local. Anarchism was way more in

697
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: style in Ukraine, and also I think left s RS.

698
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: They tried to finagle some stuff to take over the

699
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: local Soviet and ale Alexandrovsk after they'd taken power right

700
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: and the workers weren't having it, and our guy Makno

701
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: with eight hundred arm peasants showed up to the city

702
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: and was like, that's not going to happen. You can't

703
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: undermine the democratic process. Basically, so the local RevCom, which

704
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: is the Revolutionary Committee, which is a It's probably sounded

705
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: like a cool name at the time, but now it

706
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: just sounds like hopelessly Soviet, but so just the word

707
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: Soviet and those used to be cool whatever, it becomes

708
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 1: politically pluralist and it includes the anarchists. Marusio was elected

709
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: vice president of the RevCom and Makno is like the

710
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: visiting representative from Guye Poya in it, because, as was

711
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: shown time and time again in the Russian Revolution, the anarchists,

712
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: while they were fighting for anarchism, they believe that they

713
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: like the actual military fighting, was for the revolution and

714
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: against the rich. The battle for control of the direction

715
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: of the revolution was a fight that happened through political pluralism,

716
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: free speech, and to win the battle of ideas. That

717
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: is the best inference I can pull from everything that

718
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: I have read, which also matches what I think should

719
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: be the case, you know, where you can't just kill

720
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: people for having different ideas from you, but you can't

721
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: kill people from trying to stop you from creating a

722
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: free society where people aren't starving to death all the time. Yeah,

723
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: it's scanic, But did you know that you know who

724
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: doesn't want you to starve to death and wants you

725
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: to be happy? And it really depends on the sponsor

726
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: that comes next, But there's like a fifty percent chance

727
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: they don't. Yeah, and that's better odds than our heroes

728
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: have of pulling this off. Yeah, So here you go,

729
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: and we're back. The anarchist project in southeastern Ukraine was

730
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: beset by more enemies than it's easy to keep track of.

731
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: It is one of the hard things. Even since I've

732
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: put out the sixth parter on the Russian Revolution, like

733
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: a lot of listeners have been like, oh, it was great,

734
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: I had to take notes, and I'm like, yeah, me too.

735
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: I absolutely had to take notes. It's annoyingly complicated. As

736
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: soon as the Nationalists were driven back, the Bolsheviks were

737
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: kept from taking over, the White Army arrived. They are reactionary,

738
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: similar to the nationalists, but they want the recreation of

739
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: the Russian Empire. Fortunately, they're kind of splintered. They're not

740
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: a single centralized force, but some disparate groups that never

741
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: quite get their act together, in large part because of

742
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: the work of the Ukrainian anarchist Black Army that physically

743
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: prevents some of the White Armies from working together to

744
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: take Moscow. But that's later. First, in January nineteen eighteen,

745
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: the revolutionaries in Alexandrov's had a problem. The Cossacks were coming.

746
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: You mentioned that the Cossacks were going to come.

747
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they always do.

748
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: The way they handle these Cossacks is amazing. Cossack is

749
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: a word that gets used in a lot of different ways. First,

750
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: and perhaps Most importantly, the Cossacks are an ethnic group

751
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: whose culture is fiercely independent, nomadic, and quote unquote warlike,

752
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: semi militarized as I think the more modern phrase for that.

753
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: An awful lot of them have been mercenaries throughout the centuries.

754
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,280
Speaker 1: But then there's Cossacks like as generally used as history books,

755
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: which is usually referring to the Cossack mercenaries who are

756
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: hired by the Tsar. They are the elite and scary

757
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: shock troops on horses with swords, fighting for reaction. Yeah,

758
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: the Cossacks are coming, But the thing is, a whole

759
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: bunch of the anarchists around here are Cossacks too.

760
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

761
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: Nester Makno is a Cossack. Yeah, And I'm unsure about

762
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: other anarchists in this story, like Mariusia. If you ever

763
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: get bored and read the Wikipedia talk page about her,

764
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: there's like a Russian guy saying that she must be

765
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: Russian based on her name, and then people are arguing

766
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: about how that's not enough reason to determine the ethnicity

767
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: of anyway. She might have been a Cossack, she might

768
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: have been ethnically Russian, she might have been a lot

769
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: of different things. Nester Makno is a Cossack. The Cossacks

770
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: are coming, and by this we mean the nomadic cavalry

771
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: mercenaries fighting against the revolution. Everyone in Alexandrov's anarchists and

772
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: Sr's and Bolsheviks, they're like, they try to reach out

773
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: to the Cossacks and are like, hey, let's like have

774
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 1: a negotiation instead of shooting each other. And the Cossacks

775
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: are like, did you know that we're Cossacks. We're not

776
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: going to do We're good. We're just going to show

777
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: up and win. So the anarchists are like, all right,

778
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: we'll go fuck them up.

779
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: First.

780
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: They lay in wait alongside the train tracks. There has

781
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: never been a more train focused war. Yeah, I've ever

782
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: been aware.

783
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: Of people had just figured out trains and specifically how

784
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: cool they are to have in a war.

785
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I think these days we understand

786
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: trains are very good at moving supplies in people, but

787
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: are usually not fighting platforms themselves. Not in the Russian

788
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: Civil War.

789
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 2: It's a mistake. We should go back.

790
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, armored trains big part of all of this. This

791
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: one wasn't armored enough because the anarchists lay into machine

792
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: guns and the train tries to retreat, thing about trains

793
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: and retreating.

794
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: Terrible at retreating. Yeah, they've got flaws as a weapons platform.

795
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: Nobody's going to deny that.

796
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: So it backs up and then runs into the other

797
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: train full of Cossacks behind it, and both of them

798
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: are derailed.

799
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: See that's one of the downsides.

800
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: A ton of people and horses die.

801
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, armored is a relative term, and when it

802
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: comes to bullets only some things are actually armored, and

803
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: when it comes to other trains, nothing is actually armed.

804
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, which numerous times, actually Maria Niki Fova is going

805
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 1: to like absolutely like ride into war on trains time

806
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 1: and time again.

807
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, why wouldn't you.

808
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: But so the Cossacks lose because they derailed because the

809
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: anarchists forced them to retreat. And the Cossacks come forward

810
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: to the RevCom of Alexandrovsk under the white flag and

811
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: they surrender. Soon they are disarmed, and along the way

812
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: folks try to convince them to switch allegiances and become revolutionaries.

813
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: And first the good communists, the Bolshev and the srs.

814
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: They go up and make all these speeches about all

815
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: the freedoms they are going to graciously grant the Cossacks,

816
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: and the Cossacks are like, what the fuck ever, and

817
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: they're literally laughing at the speakers, even though they've already surrendered.

818
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: They're laughing at these people, right, yeah. Then Maria Niki

819
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: Frova takes the stage, and this is where her most

820
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: famous quote comes from. She says to them, the anarchists

821
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: are not promising anything to anyone. The anarchists only want

822
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: people to be conscious of their own situation and sees

823
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: freedom for themselves. And she didn't mince words or people please,

824
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: she said quote, I am obliged to tell you, Cossacks

825
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: that hitherto you have been the executioners of the Russian workers.

826
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: Are you going to remain such in the future, or

827
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: will you at last come to grasp your despicable role

828
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: and return to the family of workers, which thus far

829
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: you have refused to acknowledge, and which for a ruble

830
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: from the czar or for a glass of wine you

831
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: were always ready to crucify alive ouch And it it works.

832
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: The Cossacks are like holding their hat in their hands.

833
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: A bunch of them are crying. Over the next few days,

834
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: tons of them show up to the anarchist offices and

835
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: are like, we are interested in your ideas. Can I

836
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: have a flyer? Please?

837
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: You know?

838
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: And later a ton of these surrendered troops join in

839
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: various anarchist unions units fighting in Ukraine for the revolution.

840
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: And I think it's because you've got this no nonsense

841
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: culture being told like, we're not promising you shit, but

842
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: if you're strong enough to fight for your own liberation,

843
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: we'll help you do it way more effective. So with

844
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: machine guns and speeches, the anarchists have saved the city.

845
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: Yet the fuck again. Also, and this one's going to

846
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: be my conjecture and pulling out my yarn on my

847
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: board on my wall. One of the white generals, this

848
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: guy Kaladin, he relied heavily on the Cossacks, and the

849
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: Cossacks eventually abandoned him and he kills himself. So I'm

850
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: not saying Mariusia killed a general by convincing the Cossacks

851
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: to abandon him, but I'm not saying she didn't.

852
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty based.

853
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: It's like we know so little about her life, but

854
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: the little bits we know are like, and then she

855
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: rode a train into war, and then she convinced the

856
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: Cossacks to abandon the general and then she fucking people

857
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: are so mad she's in jail that they all storm

858
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: the you know, I just I really like her.

859
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

860
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: Makno and Mariusia are both like, you know what, I'm

861
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: not really the type to sit around in a city

862
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: and argue about politics with the Bolsheviks and the SRS,

863
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: and so they leave town. One version of the story

864
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: is that Makno has been trying to blow up the prison,

865
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: but the rest of the RevCom won't let him, and

866
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: so he like leaves in a huff because he's like,

867
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: no one lets me do my thing, just blow up

868
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: the prison. Aw which is particularly interesting because immediately before

869
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: that he had been in charge of the prisoners of

870
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: war basically, and he had been in charge he was

871
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: like the judge for all the people who were arrested,

872
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: and like overall he was like mostly pretty nice, but

873
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: then there was that thing that where he potentially the

874
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: prosecutor who had put him in jail. He was like, ah,

875
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: I'm putting you the fuck in jail. But so Makno

876
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: heads back to his village and his units there, and

877
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: Mariucia and her black Guard stay in the city. But

878
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: they need more guns and they have a tried and

879
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: true method of getting guns. They organize a joint action,

880
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: the city anarchists and the peasant anarchists working together, and

881
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: they go back to the same barracks that they robbed

882
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: the last time, which at this point was like half

883
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: nationalist armies and half white armies, because the two must

884
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: have been getting along together at that point, like.

885
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: Knowing exactly there at this point. At that point, it's

886
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: they're just basically arming the revolutionaries themselves, right, You're just

887
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: feeding guns to rebels if you keep filling this place up,

888
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: I know.

889
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 1: And this is where Maria Niki Farova gets her first mortars.

890
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: They succeed. They get a ton of mortars and machine

891
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: guns and all the stuff that make the two of

892
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 1: them smile. Last time that the anarchist had raided the barracks,

893
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: the local revolutionary government had been mad about it. This time,

894
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks are like, yeah, cool, we get the guns, right,

895
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: And at this point mary Us has like nah, and

896
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: gives all of the guns to the newly growing explicitly

897
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: anarchist project in Guliapulia. Her military unit becomes the Free

898
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: Combat Drewsina. Drewsina is like a medieval word for the

899
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: military force of the local region, and they're officially recognized

900
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: and financed for a little while by the Red Army.

901
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: She had like made for all of the like she's

902
00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: the most anarchy, ever, she's actually not. She doesn't come

903
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: out the gate being like and I hate the Bolsheviks

904
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: and I hate the SRS.

905
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: She's literally makes sense to right, like, you can't, yeah,

906
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 2: the stuff hadn't happened. That is the reason why those

907
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: conflicts are so ingrained to us.

908
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And she's like, well, you know, the main

909
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: difference in her mind is that she wants it immediately

910
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 1: without intermediary steps, and everyone else wants an intermediary steps.

911
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: But if they finance her doing it without intermediary steps,

912
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: then we're all on the same page. Sure, And she

913
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: is one of the only women commanders in the entire war.

914
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: They give her a new nickname, Atamansha. This part surprised me.

915
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: I found it really interesting. Atomologically, there are no Slavic

916
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: words for leader originally. That is interesting because they all

917
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: used to be pretty cool. All their words for leaders

918
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 1: are loanwords. Auteman and Autemansha come from Turkish word for leader,

919
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: so atamancha means the female chieftain basically.

920
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

921
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: Traditionally the military leader of a group of Cossacks was

922
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: elected by the soldiers, like Mariucio was, And you talked

923
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: about this, I think a little bit on your episodes

924
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: about how Makno for example, in some ways was drawing

925
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: on his own pritage about how to be a non

926
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: hierarchical military commander, where you need hierarchy in the military,

927
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: but non authoritarian hierarchy or whatever.

928
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: The Yeah. Yeah, as a friend of mine put it,

929
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: who had seen some very heavy combat. Once you've been

930
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: through enough of that sort of thing, you know who

931
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: you're willing to listen to in a firefight. Yeah, Like,

932
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: it's not it becomes past a certain point, less about

933
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 2: rank and more about well, like I just know who

934
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: I'm going, who knows what they're saying about that in

935
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: that situation, you.

936
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: Know totally, which is why like is then people are like, oh,

937
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: democratic armies aren't effective. And then there's like a ton

938
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: of information from the Russian Civil War before before anti

939
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: democratic things were put back in place in the Red

940
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: Army where it was very effective for because people know who,

941
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: at least on the sergeant level. I can't tell you.

942
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 2: One they or the other about Hyeah. Once you've actually

943
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: been fighting, you tend to know who's worth taking seriously

944
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 2: when they give a device in that situation.

945
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: And now we get to my favorite part. Even more

946
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: than all of the robberies and cool prison breaks, the

947
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: weird cultural things about the Free Combat Drezina. They were

948
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: culturally distinct from the rest of the Red Army. They're hippies.

949
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: They covered their train in slogans like, well, this part

950
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: isn't hippie, but whatever, well, good hippie. They covered their

951
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: trains and slogans like the liberation of the workers is

952
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: the concern of the workers themselves, and long live anarchy,

953
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: and power creates parasites and peace in the home and

954
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: war in the palaces, and anarchy is the mother of order.

955
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: They didn't have an afeuniform. Instead, they had an unofficial one.

956
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: The men wore their hair long, which was not in

957
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 1: style at the time. They wore civilian coats, red pants,

958
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: and ammo belts. Everyone in all of this is like

959
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: dripping in guns, right, everyone had just covered in weapons.

960
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: There's an inner core of the Free Combat Jusina that

961
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: stays and other folks drift in and out from various units,

962
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: especially black sea sailors. One SR said, with their cannons

963
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: and black flags, the free combat Jusina was like pirates

964
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: sailing on the steps. And they were also like the

965
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: flying Dutchman, where they would appear out of nowhere. Right,

966
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: you had no idea when the free combat Jusina would

967
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: just show up and fuck your day up. If you're

968
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 1: in the White Army or a nationalist, this is so cool,

969
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: I know. And then according to one source that I read,

970
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: they would line their horses up into rows by color,

971
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: so that when they charged into battle, they formed stripes

972
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: of color moving across the fields. And they kept accordionists

973
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: riding in carriages in the back alongside the fame ta

974
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: chankas because Makno invented the modern technical the idea of

975
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: strap a machine gun onto a truck, but truck at

976
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: this time meant carriage pulled by a horse.

977
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've got like the finally a bandit army

978
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: that weird al could have a place, and I love

979
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: that it's beautiful.

980
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: I think that modern technicals are not complete unless they

981
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: keep to tradition and have accordionists in the back.

982
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's they're weird al in the middle of that

983
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: yuch of high lexes.

984
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: As an accordionist, I would rather have my rifle than

985
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: an accordion. In a technical you.

986
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: Can carry both. We can make some sort of a

987
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 2: Picatinny rail mount for an accordion, so it goes underneath.

988
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: The ar okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, at least a concertina,

989
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, or like a here's what you really do

990
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: because it accordions are a free read instruments, so there's

991
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: loose brass reads that are held on by wax and

992
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: as air moves over them, they make different notes. And

993
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: other instruments in this family include melodicas and harmonicas. So

994
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: you take the blowback system of the rifle and you

995
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: hook it up to a keyed system so that when

996
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: you shoot the gun, it makes different noises depending on

997
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: which keys you're pressing. And I know what you're thinking,

998
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: that won't work because the guns are really loud, but

999
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: I don't care.

1000
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: Sure if you just wrap the gas from the firing

1001
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 2: gun through then it could work as a suppressor and

1002
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: as an accordion. I think there's probably a way to

1003
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: do that.

1004
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be my macno invented the technical you build

1005
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: that I would love to see.

1006
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: Just challenge the ATF to regulate this. What do you

1007
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 2: count this as? Huh?

1008
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: Is this a suppressor? This is what I go down for.

1009
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, you have this group of non uniformed

1010
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: red pants covered in guns accordionist long hair. One version

1011
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 1: I read said that they claimed that their pants were flared.

1012
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: I think that was more of a sailor style, and

1013
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: they're like on but they're not sailors, right, yeah, And

1014
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: they're just coolest shit. And the other thing that made

1015
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: them distinct from the rest of the Red Army is

1016
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: that they were better fed and better armed, and partly

1017
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: because they'd done so much work of securing those arms

1018
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: themselves as the best bet. And then I think also

1019
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: they just like prioritized cooks and stuff.

1020
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: I'm not yeah, that makes sense.

1021
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: I'm inferring all. The only piece of information is that

1022
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: multiple sources talk about them having better guns and better food,

1023
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: but I don't know why. And so they just went

1024
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: around Ukraine fighting nationalists, fighting the White Army, robbing the rich,

1025
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: and setting up anarchist communes in their wake. They would

1026
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: liberate a city from the nowtionalists. They would set up

1027
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: new blackguards within the city. They would elect new soviets

1028
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: that represented theoretically the people better, which wasn't They didn't

1029
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: make it an anarchist town. I mean, I guess in

1030
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: some ways I just said they made anarchist communes, but

1031
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: they certainly like.

1032
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 2: It.

1033
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: Certainly helped influence people's decision making that the anarchists had

1034
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: just saved them or whatever. And in those towns that

1035
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,720
Speaker 1: they had taken over, necessities were to be shared equally,

1036
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: while barter was used for non essential goods. I can't

1037
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: tell you that's the most efficient economy, but it sure

1038
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:31,959
Speaker 1: sounds more equal than.

1039
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 2: What we got.

1040
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: And all I know is that the Russian Civil War

1041
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: is one of the worst possible times in places to

1042
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: be alive in history. If someone gave me a one

1043
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: way ticket to join the free combat Jerzina in nineteen eighteen,

1044
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: I might take it, even knowing how it ends. They

1045
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: yola the shit out of their short lives.

1046
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: It would be hard not to want to be along

1047
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 2: for that ride.

1048
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, But if you want to go along for that

1049
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: ride in a way in which is you don't have

1050
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: to put yourself in danger except the danger of Actually,

1051
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: my phone always yells at me for listening to two

1052
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: things too loud, so that's actually a danger. You can

1053
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: listen to parts three and four where we talk about

1054
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 1: how it all plays out next week.

1055
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 2: Next week, everybody, I'll be backed, We'll all be back.

1056
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: If you want to hear Jamie Loftus explain people who

1057
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: used to be famous on the Internet, I'm hoping that

1058
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: you just know who Jamie Loftus is and therefore you

1059
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: know that the show is going to be amazing. You

1060
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: can listen to sixteenth minute, sixteenth minute of Fame or sixteenth.

1061
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: Minute, sixteenth minute of Fame, okay.

1062
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: And if you want to hear modern politics explained in

1063
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: possibly the best possible way, you could listen to Hood

1064
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: Politics with prop And if you want to keep up

1065
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: with ins and outs of complicated news, you can listen

1066
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: it could happen here. And if you want to hear

1067
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: bad people in history, you can listen Behind the Bastards

1068
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: and the Tech Show. Wow.

1069
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, better offline, stay off the Internet except for it

1070
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 2: for those.

1071
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: For the d If you want to read my fiction,

1072
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: you can have Well, I have a bunch of books

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00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: out already, but I now have a In June of

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00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, I will be kickstarting my first full

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00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 1: length novel, despite having written many novellas, called The Sapling Cage,

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00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: and if you look for it on Kickstarter now you

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Speaker 1: can sign up to be told when it goes live

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00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: and you'll be happy you did. I got to reveal

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00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: the cover weeks ago as you're listening to this, but

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00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: today as of recording, and I'm very happy about it.

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Speaker 2: Excellent. Cool people Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

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00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

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00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

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00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 2: your podcasts.